"When we were working on designing this beautiful new campus, we were very intent on making sure that our new campus wasn't just utilitarian, that it wasn't just a series of functional buildings without any beauty, but we wanted this new campus to be an architectural invitation to the gospel of Jesus Christ. And that is why in the center of this new campus, a wonderful fountain, that would have water that is springing up and gushing down. And at the top of that fountain would be a 66-foot cross, inviting people to the source of living water, Jesus Christ, Himself." Robert Jeffress, FBC Dallas Pastor, 11/14/10---------------
Robert Jeffress, pastor of First Baptist Church of Dallas, says he wants their new $120 million church, including their new computerized fountain designed by Fluidity Design Consultants in Los Angeles, to be an "architectural invitation to the gospel of Jesus Christ."
I thought one thing the American church would have learned by now, is that spending money on beautiful architecture - including elaborate water fountains - is not what attracts people to the gospel of Jesus Christ. The large numbers of glamorous cathedrals in Europe that sit empty and serve as little more than tourist attractions are a testimony to that.
That one of the most historic Southern Baptist Churches is unashamedly building a $120 million architecturally beautiful campus including a computerized fountain, speaks volumes to the world about Southern Baptists. While we are saying "Jesus is coming soon", and pushing hard to send more missionaries through the Cooperative Program and the "Great Commission Resurgence", one of our most historic churches is asking for people to sacrifice to build a wonderful water fountain and to generate a computerized video simulation to "knock the socks off" the congregation.
And really, is this not just a glimpse into what churches would do if we REALLY opened up our pocketbooks and all of us began tithing thereby doubling or tripling our church's budget? I believe one of the reasons Christians are hesitant to give freely and fully to their church is that they know that if their churchs' revenues spiked, church leaders would use the money not so much for ministry, but rather to construct a new building, to add more professional clergy, give better end-of-year bonuses to the staff, and construct glamorous features on their campus like fountains, lighthouses on their parking garages, or "crystal cathedrals".
Below is a video where the First Baptist Dallas pastor Robert Jeffress on November 14th introduces the video simulation of the new First Baptist Dallas fountain that he says will "knock your socks off". Sure knocked my socks off! Amen!
FBC Dallas members, go ahead and build a wonderful computerized fountain if you want at your church - even pay to have a simulation video made to get people excited about it - but don't fool yourself into thinking that it will help "architecturally" attract anyone to Jesus Christ. Not one single, solitary soul will be attracted to Jesus because of your water fall.
I remember at FBC Jacksonville how giddy people were in the 1990's over Homer Lindsay Jr's 
idea of erecting a solid concrete 50-foot tall striped "lighthouse" on the corner of the newest parking garage to attract people to Jesus Christ, the "Lighthouse".
Now, some 20 years or so after it was built, it means nothing, and I mean nothing. In fact, when it was built and the church lit the beacon, the city stepped in because residents said it was an annoyance to have this beacon rotating and shining light in their homes.
And I haven't heard any testimonies of how the lighthouse at FBC Jax lighthouse saved anyone, or even pointed anyone to Jesus Christ. So I kind of doubt the FBC Dallas water fixture will either. But it may serve as a place for the homeless to be refreshed on those hot summer days, before church security chases them away. And it may serve as a source of pride to the members for doing something so wonderful for Jesus.
The FBC Dallas church leaders do understand the criticism they have received over the $120 million project....but their answer: we've already been the most generous church in helping the poor! Two weeks after the fountain video displayed, former FBC Dallas pastor and guest preacher O.S. Hawkins defended the campus project by proclaiming:
"There will always be folks that say 'boy, they could have taken all that money and given it to the poor.' And I defy anybody to find a church anywhere that over the decades has done more for the poor in their Jerusalem, than we have here. In fact in Bethany, that's what they said, isn't it, when Jesus was anointed by the alabaster box that woman brought in. One of those disciples - you know, I don't want to be like him - it was Judas - he said 'boy you could have sold that and given it to the poor'. But Jesus said to her 'You've done a beautiful thing for me'." O.S. Hawkins, 11/28/10
That is quite a statement, that no church ANYWHERE has done more for the poor than FBC Dallas. At least this is an acknowledgment that real ministry should be done as a priority. But I wonder if any churches in Dallas would take exception to O.S.'s claim that no church has helped the poor more than First Baptist Dallas.
And as O.S. says, don't be like Judas and criticize the plans for the campus.
After all, they are just doing a beautiful thing for Jesus.
130 comments:
Interesting article, Watchdog. I'm just wondering if Dallas has thought about how they're going to maintain this big new campus over the long term.
At FBC Jax, our "new" 9000-seat auditorium is less than 20 years old, and Mac has been begging and putting the congregation on a guilt trip, to raise $1 million for renovations.
Where does it stop, and at what point do we take Paul's advice and find contentment with what we already have ??
As a longtime member of FBCD, I recall in not too long ago when we had to put gates up all around the church to keep the homeless out of the facility. Huge massive iron gates. So now we will have this open campus inviting all around to enjoy. I can only wonder how long before the foutain becomes too expensive to maintain. And OS should have learned by now to keep his ignorant comments to himself.
WD-
I am not a fan of this building program, nor have I ever been a member of FBCD. I do live in the Dallas area and I do know that they do a lot for the poor and homeless in the city.
I don't know that they do more than any other church. But I do credit them for having a major part in ministering to the poor and homeless in the city.
THIS IS BEAUTIFUL?? NOT! What are they using as their standard? Cathedrals are beautiful. Tacky, modern, trendy compounds with "bells and whistles" which will soon be outdated w/in 10-20 yrs. are not beautiful by any streach of the imagination. Well.. I guess if you are the shallow, materialistic type with a low view and understanding of true aesthetics, then this would be considered "beatiful".
Cathedrals are true works of art which have stood hundreds and hundreds of years. Believe me, they will be tearing this piece down one day too.
Word verification: tracho. got that right. trasho it is.
Jeffress is soooo shallow and phoney. Look how is always trying to impress man. And, as usual, it is ALWAYS about him, not Him!
"Cathedrals are true works of art which have stood hundreds and hundreds of years. Believe me, they will be tearing this piece down one day too."
And all over Europe, they are nothing but tourist attractions. Dead. Ichabod.
So a fountain? A light house? why not Vegas style neon lights flashing the word: Jesus? Wouldn't that work better?
Dose god really want his Holly name affiliated great earthly fixtures? That is of course, the god who loves you and dose not want you to conform to the world. One could only believe there is more going on besides your relationship with the creator. Perhaps God has changed and wants us to live and be powerfull just like the jews of their day. Lets convence the SBC to build a huge solomon temple. This should not take much.
WD, FBC Dallas and other mega churches like it are just relics of a corrupted understanding of the Gospel, and an affront to the life and ministry of Jesus. Were Jesus to visit us again, we would not find him in the pulpit of any of those churches. He would be walking among the homeless on the streets, or listening to the plea of a battered woman, or comforting an abused child, or teaching/preaching in environment where all people are treated as persons created in the image of God. The new church building at FBC Dallas will represent many things: power, money, excess, arrogance, greed..., but it will not stand for humility and it cannot represent Jesus. Luke 12:13-21 applies.
I live in europe (england) and every cathedral i've ever visited is also a running church with many regular services, not just a tourist destination. At each and every one i have visited there have been numerous people sat praying, including the tourists. Luckily we don't have any of this multi million dollar fountain business over here though, because it is anything but beautiful.
As a member here at FBCD, I have watched this thing develop and evlove. When you see the architectural model of this thing, you will note the enormous size of the skybridges. THey have high ceilings and glass on both sides.
Even low emmissivity glass cannot overcome the heating and cooling loads they will produce. THe R-value is just not there.
Plus, keeping all that glass cleaned, on both sides will be a challenge for their operating budget. Architecturally, it disses the newer Criswell center and the historic old sanctuary.
I was ther when OS made the Judas comment and felt my ears burn red. HOw dare he say that any critic is a thief like Judas? Judas was the treasurer of the group and was a thief, the alabaster monies could have been part of his pickings.
I do not now or previously support this project and have redirected my giving to John Macarthur's radio ministry and some other groups that are good stewards and ministers of the gospel.
This is the church, that in March or April of 2009, gave away a car to entice people to attend some events. Just had Josh Hamilton the MVP baseball guy, speak. THis place relies on celebrities and other similar enticements. You can't be celebrity unless you promote celebrity-ness.
The music is pretty jacked up with contemporary choruses, along with the usual ensemble with microphones, standing up front.
There is sacred music, then there is this stuff. Weak in doctrine, monotonous lyrics that rarely exalt holiness, His grace or blood. Just some smarmy feel-good attempt at poetry.
Weak stuff for sure, all to appeal to the seeker and curious. Just like this architectural Lego set they promoting.
I am only there for the fellowship in our bible class and I don't know where to find a church that preaches the word in power, relies on the Holy Spirit for power and direction, and aren't afraid of a hymn.
As soon as I can find that church here in Dallas......I'm out.
Oh, and Robert, I hope you are taking notes. This 'giving unit' ain't buying any of this market driven stuff. Get back to relying on the Holy Spirit to draw men to himself, not this bread and circus.
Garlando
This new Church is beautiful! I thank God for churches like FBC Dallas that want to use every means necessary to win people to Jesus. When lost people see that water fall and they see it is all COMPUTERIZED, THEY WILL COME TO JESUS BY THE THOUSANDS!
Watch out Fellowship Church...we will win the Baptism record this year!!!
Hey I gotta a good idea for FBC Dallas and raising their Baptism count .... you know, to help them break the afore mentioned baptism record. Well, after the new fountain is done, just have people walk by it before and after church each week... and then while they least expect it, turn that baby on high, get 'em all good and wet with this new high-dollar techno fountain, and then count each and every person who gets wet via the fountain as a baptism!
Sounds great to me!! Kind of like back in the days of the Crusades when they walked people along the river bank, and used tree branches and limbs to "spray" water from the river on people as they walked by... well, history shows that is one way they added to their baptism count!! Each person who got "sprayed" by the water of a branch was counted as being baptized into the Kingdom of God! Crazy huh? But true.
So, if all else fails at good 'ole FBC Dallas, they can use the new fountain as a outdoor baptistry. What about it FBC Dallas people? Let us know what you think. Adios
The whole thing looks like a scene out of the Watchtower Magazine. Tacky!
Seriously, I don't get the argument of "well, we already give alot to the poor". Aren't we accountable for everything we do? Where do these guys get these grandiose ideas? Maybe they need to read the book "Radical".
Well, not that the Watchtower would include a cross in one of their paradise scenes...LOL
Garlando, may I be so bold as to recommend you and your family visit Wilshire Baptist Church on Abrams Rd. I believe you will find it to be a warm, caring congregation, with a theologically sound pastor who communicates the Gospel clearly, without the self-centered arrogance and manipulation that pass for preaching in so many churches today.
" Well, after the new fountain is done, just have people walk by it before and after church each week... and then while they least expect it, turn that baby on high, get 'em all good and wet with this new high-dollar techno fountain, and then count each and every person who gets wet via the fountain as a baptism!"
I LOVE IT !! I only wish I had thought of that, and I certainly wouldn't put it past ANY of the Mega's!!
Thanks for finding the humor in this :-)
"When we were working on designing this beautiful new campus, we were very intent on making sure that our new campus wasn't just utilitarian, that it wasn't just a series of functional buildings without any beauty, but we wanted this new campus to be an architectural invitation to the gospel of Jesus Christ. And that is why in the center of this new campus, a wonderful fountain, that would have water that is springing up and gushing down. And at the top of that fountain would be a 66-foot cross, inviting people to the source of living water, Jesus Christ, Himself." Robert Jeffress, FBC Dallas Pastor, 11/14/10
What is sad is that anyone who really believes this is true does not really know the Anointed One personally.
Shouldn't Christians' buildings be just functional so they can meet sometimes? Shouldn't Christians be so busy out in the world helping others-repairing houses for the poor, visiting prisoners, reading to children, helping the sick, etc. that they don't spend much time in the buildings anyway?
And how are the unsaved gonna be attracted to this magnificent building? Wouldn't they be a little intimidated by all the well-dressed people who supposedly have it all together?
Wouldn't it be more attractive to have a humble building where actual people are out there actually wanting to connect with real people with real problems? I don't think all this grandeur attracts anybody but other comfortable Christians who want to be entertained in style. I think that is actually who it's being built for.
And won't this lovely fountain be on private property where guards can control who's allowed? I don't see how this reaches out to the unsaved in any way at all.
As a missionary I can't help but think of how many Bibles I could buy with that kind of money.
I also remember watching the implosion of the former building on TV. It was turned to dust in seconds. You'd think it would give pause to someone thinking about spending millions on something else that will one day turn to dust.
All I can say is they are going to have HUGE upkeep and maintenance cost. It will bleed them of valuable resources that could be much better spent ministering to their members, missions and unchurched-lost in the metroplex. Do I detect an element of PRIDE?
A 66 ft. cross atop a fountain. Wow! It would be awfully hard to hang a man from there. Oh, I forgot, our Savior hung on a wooden cross out on the edge of town, near the garbage dump. Quite a contrast.
Does this church have so much money it doesn't know what to do with it all? I'm seriously asking. Also the maintenance will take lots of faithful tithers, right?
I recognize that many of the posters/readers would feel the same way about the large cathedrals over in Europe.
I have visited a few of them, and noticed that there are a lot of stained glass windows, and Stations of the Cross (which tell the story of Good Friday) which don't require reading to understand. And for me, the style of the church is both humbling to me and uplifting toward God.
How is the fountain, which looks very ordinary going to tell, without words, anything about Jesus?
"As a missionary I can't help but think of how many Bibles I could buy with that kind of money."
Think of all the needs around the world. In Haiti, Africa and even here. Think of how some of that money could relieve a single mom or get her out of a horrible neighorhood.
Instead, the want what little money they have. How do these folks look in the mirror? They can because their conscious is seared.
As we continue to hear of the thousands of people in Haiti dying because of the need for clean water, it seems almost barbaric to spend thousands wasting water. And the argument from OS that we have spent money (past tense) on the poor sounds like an argument a spoiled teenager would use.
The problem with the FBC fountain is that downtown Dallas is an eyesore in general. It has way too much concrete and cold glass without any landscaping. There needs to be some plants and flowers added to give it some beauty along with the human touch.
Fountain Video reminds me of the the Bellagio
Casino in Las Vegas! What you see there is people on the outside looking on but never going inside the building, which I would venture to say will be the same for this "wonderful" fountain.
With today's economy, churches should be thinking of putting their extra monies in reserves. Couldn't help but notice the giddy body language of the speaker. These mega pastors are so full of greed.
Well, at least they are stimulating the economy, providing jobs.
I've never visited the cathedrals in Europe. I'm sure they are beautiful. But I wonder what the people who had them built were like? What kind of people were they? Were they also into power mainly?
The idea that this elaborate fountain will draw people to Jesus-it sounds ridiculous to me. I can hear the testimonies now-I saw this giant fountain-just like in Vegas!
What a great idea! All you "haters" are just jealous that your Church doesn't have a waterfall. Jesus said the poor you will have with you always. Maybe if they would throw a quarter in the waterfall, they would get God's blessing on their life.
Lynn,
Considering that some of them,such as Notre Dame in Paris took over 100 years to build, it couldn't be just power hungry.
There may have been competition between cities for the biggest and most beautiful ones. And rich patrons of the arts had their pictures with some of the saints.
For the average man, it was and is a place to worship, and for craftsmen a place for his best work.
All for the glory of God.
I think that glorifying God in our worship and our dress for church as been lost. And we are hurting for it.
I believe that beauty is necessary to help us to worship. (and I'm not defining beauty as ornate necessarily, but there is a BIG difference between a warehouse style church and even a plain Shaker one.)
Where in scripture are we told to build shrines?
Maybe if they would throw a quarter in the waterfall, they would get God's blessing on their life.
An excellent answer to the above is this series:
Emmanuel - Enid > Series on "Romans: The Integrity of God" > 10. The Impossible Possibility: Earning God's Favor by My Activity (Romans 2:12-16)
The whole Romans is an excellent answer for the above thinking. I am slowly working my way though Pastor Wade Burleson's series on The Romans: The Integrity of God, that he began in 2002 (128 sermons).
Anna,
I've been to all sorts of churches...cathedrals in Europe, converted storefronts and warehouses, traditional sanctuaries and I can honestly say that not once have my surroundings influenced my worship. And not once have the clothes of the people around me influenced me. Now a good sermon and music--that can influence me.
Jesus said the poor you will have with you always. Maybe if they would throw a quarter in the waterfall, they would get God's blessing on their life.
This passage is not talking about money but the people without love from the holy spirit. You have been listening to brunson too much!
Off Topic:
NYT > Noah’s Ark, the Theme Park
A question to ponder. Why is it the cathedral's in Europe have lasted and the American Cathedral's go bankrupt?
Also why do folks tithe and then claim it on their tax returns?
WishIhadknown,
I was thinking about this last night. Your answer is in the Old Testament. Look at the Temple in Jerusalem. Big, ornate, sitting on top of a hill so that all can see it. Sounds like a cathedral to me. GRIN.
Anonymous 8:55 pm I, too, can worship in a number of places, but, for me, beauty makes it easier. (I even learned to appreciate "The black box church" in Vienna) (Gary Thomas' book "Sacred Pathways" helped me understand a lot about both my desires for worship and devotion and how others get fed as well)
I am concerned that we have lost or are losing the desire to glorify God in everything that we do.
Anna A,
You make a good point. Beauty and dignity in buildings and clothing do feed the human spirit.
They enhance the atmosphere and make things seem more special, but aren't Christians to focus on people mostly? The poor, the powerless?
Plus regardless of how it enhances the worship experience, all this grandeur requires lots of money for upkeep-at least here-I don't know how much the cathedrals cost. Do they make money by giving tours? Hey, maybe Dallas could do the same-charge for tours!
Plus you cannot compare the cathedrals in Europe with beautiful modern buildings. In 100's of years, will the Dallas building be beautiful?
" I be so bold as to recommend you and your family visit Wilshire Baptist Church on Abrams Rd. I believe you will find it to be a warm, caring congregation, with a theologically sound pastor who communicates the Gospel clearly, without the self-centered arrogance"
Yea they're so warm and caring and non-arrogant that they placed an ATM right by the sanctuary just to make your TITHING even easier. AND they take credit cards,too!
"The problem with the FBC fountain is that downtown Dallas is an eyesore in general. It has way too much concrete and cold glass without any landscaping. There needs to be some plants and flowers added to give it some beauty along with the human touch."
EXCUSE ME???!!! But isn't Dallas rectifying that by building the freeway-overhang park to connect our pretentious, wanna-be-New-York Downtown to our even more pretentious, wanna-be-Los-Angeles Uptown
"How do these folks look in the mirror? They can because their conscious is seared."
I asked myself that over and over again while I was at FBCD. ESPECIALLY after I left for good. I can tell you this, MOST people there are nothing more the $30K - $40K a year millionaires. They live and act just the way so many of the unsaved in this city do.
What a great idea! All you "haters" are just jealous that your Church doesn't have a waterfall. Jesus said the poor you will have with you always. Maybe if they would throw a quarter in the waterfall, they would get God's blessing on their life.
December 5, 2010 6:47 PM
No haters here in Jacksonville as we already have 2 downtown waterfalls that are appreciated by the homeless as they use them for swimming and bathing and the drunks especially love to cool off after the Florida/Georgia games. :>) And it does help the economy because of the off duty security needed to oversee the fountains. :>)
I love Waterfalls! God created waterfalls and what is SO wrong with us creating one at our Church. Steeples aren't in the Bible, Stained Glass is not in the Bible, Organs and pianos are not in the Bible...You people are Crazey!!!
Here is a man wanting to do something in response to God's call and you are saying it is wrong! Thank you God for Shephards that will listen to the Spirit!!!
The comment about FBC Dallas working very hard to keep the poor, homless, and street people OFF and AWAY from the church and church property is so true! They did put big iron gates up, used security, and ran more than their share off and away... time after time. I give them about two years or less and then they will have to put a big iron fence with locked gates around their blessed little techno pond and fountain. It will become the biggest JOKE in downtown Dallas.
The fountain will no longer be drawing the poor and homeless, but will be an eye sore that attracts those they do not really want. Just wait and see! I guranatee it will happen. Either the locked gate and fence will come or they'll have to hire 24-hour security gurads (spend about $1,000 per day to fully pay two-guards at a time to work 24-hours a day!!!) to keep the "less-than-desirables" away... especially on a 105 degree day in downtown Dallas!!! It'll be the most popular spot in town!!! That will be about $365,000 per year in the FBC Budget just to guard the once grand techno fountains!!! WOW!! Just think how many poor people that $365 K could feed each year?!?! Just wait and see. Then we will see how attractive this architechural structure really is.
To all,
If I have given the impression that I think that the new First Baptist Dallas building is comparable to the cathedrals in Europe, or even nice ones over here, I apologize. I think that it is probably a waste of money that will be outdated very soon.
GRIN. If they wanted to buy the new Los Angeles Cathedral, I think that a number of Catholic would be glad to seen it gone. It is quite ugly on the outside.
120 million.... how many people would that feed, how many elderly people could get their meds, how many unemployed could get money to help pay their bills, how many people could this money help.
Instead, some "preacher" is justifying this by saying they are "inviting people to the source of living water".
I wonder how much of this will be passed to the pastor as a raise for "leading a bigger church" or will be passed to the politicians that attend his church, or friends or family on staff.
"A question to ponder. Why is it the cathedral's in Europe have lasted and the American Cathedral's go bankrupt?"
In Europe, either the state or Rome owns them and does upkeep. Many are used for cultural events such as concerts, etc. They are considered national treasures. Has nothing to do with spirituality. God does not need a shrine.
I don't like the Water Fountain.....I don't like Mac.....I don't like Rick Warren....I don't like the Sheriff...I don't like tithing...I don't like FBC Jax...I don't like...blah blah blah...........
WHY DON'T YOU GET A LIFE AND QUIT TRYING TO TEAR DOWN GOD'S WORK.
You're not a regular reader.
I like Rick Warren - sort of.
I definitely like the sheriff.
I do like FBC Jax.
And I do like "blah, blah, blah"
I even like fountains (but don't like mega church pastors creating computer simuluations of them to knock the socks off the peeps to get them to give more money, declaring that the fountain will architecturally lead people to Jesus.)
And I especially like getting under your skin to cause you to hit the all caps button!
Take a chill pill.... :)
I don't like the Caps Lock key.
Anna A
You’re answer is exactly right except until the cross the Holy Spirit of God dwelled in the temple but after Pentecost the Holy Spirit indwells the spirit of the believer. Additionally God allowed the Temple to be built as a concession to David. God actually preferred a nomad’s tent.
Steeples had a practical use and stained glass too. Organs and pianos are used in worship; at least they used to be. Not sure that a fountain can be used for in terms of glorifying God.
How many tithers does it take to give $365,000 per year?
How many tithers does it take to give $365,000 per year?
***********************
one!
WD I think you may not want to criticize FBC Jax's use of the approximately 200,000 dollars (if i recall the amount) spent on the lighthouse. Think about it objectively for a moment. Since the FBC Jax lighthouse has been built and being used daily in the late afternoon and early evening, there has not been one shipwreck downtown. It is working.
In a world where there are thousands who've never, not once, had the chance to even hear the name Jesus, we have mega churches and their fountains, re-decorations, cruises, and 6 figure salaries. No wonder the IMB is having to cut back so much!
What a pity! How dare any of you support this farce, and those that lead in such a manner!! I'm thinking that this is a good time to quote that verse: "Jesus wept". And I'm gonna be yet another 'anonymous' because I'm serving in a not so friendly region. So I apologize in advance!
"How many tithers does it take to give $365,000 per year?"
At 36.5k a year, it would take 100. But since 97% of Baptists don't tithe, it would take hundreds more.
It must make the giver feel proud knowing that all proceeds go toward security of a water fountain.
One ostentatious fountain...$365,000. One FBCD tither....$365,000. One big, fat tax deduction...PRICELESS.
What's all the fuss about? Most of the contributions to build this monument to mammon will come from well-heeled donors who will have their donations returned, in large part, by current tax codes (no sacrifice there). Perhaps they will be honest and change the name of First Baptist Church Dallas to the New Dallas Arena for Consumptive Spirituality (there are others in the metroplex). Since the fountain will somehow attract the masses to Jesus (that one still escapes me), perhaps it could be named names Dallas Urban Neighborhood Guide Helping Everyday Average People. Think about it...really, it's kinda' funny.
FBC Jax Lighthouse - "The Beacon of Truth ". :-)
What happened to our great Cathedrals? Good question. The majority of them are either Catholic or Episcopal. The Catholics are having a hard time paying for just the upkeep of their buildings and the shortage of priests only exacerbates that problem. There are many people who have grown up in a Parish church who now have to go elsewhere. You know 'rightsizing' and all that.
The Episcopals are an entirely different matter. They are in their last death rattle. I knew conclusively that it was over when Saint John the Divine, rented out their cathedral so Elton John could have his birthday bash there. You know things like simulated sexual acts on the altar. No big deal right? The church got paid and Elton John got to mock our Savior. End of story. But no, that's not enough. A huge percentage of Episcopals now call themselves Anglicans. They don't want anything to do with the Episcopal branch that is clearly apostate. How can a church allow a Bishop to have authority over an area when he doesn't even believe in the virgin birth, the resurrection, heaven or hell? Then add the homosexual agenda, and that's all she wrote. People who have loved their Episcopal faith, know what scripture says and they can't be part of what the church now teaches. If you do a little research, you'll find there are many break-away Anglicans who have been LITERALLY locked out of their churches and the Episcopals are now suing to take ownership of the buildings even when they do not hold the deeds to the property. To sum it all up, the Episcopals have a new motto. "Don't believe that crap, we don't either". Take a look at YouTube... you'll see many videos inviting people into the Episcopal church and many of them are placed there by openly gay people.
Our great Cathedrals are no more than stone edifices brimming over with sin, and preaching that sin isn't really sin.
Is anyone aware of what ministries FBCD is doing presently?
A quick look at their web site shows some of the ministries to people downtown and outside of downtown.
They have 10 or 11 mission churches right now and according to the web site, have seen 21 of their missions become autonomous churches.
DO they do everything I would think they ought to do? No, but who am I to say what they should or should not be doing.
I really do not understand the anti-church stuff that is happening here. Any problem with or within the church, whether mega or not, is a heart problem of those leading or criticizing.
Why don't you ever post about those that are being saved? Why don't you post about those marriages that are being healed? Why don't you post about those who are being delivered from drug and alcohol addiction? Why don't you post about the hungry being fed and the prisoners being visited and the homeless being served.
Oh.....that would be counterproductive to you Bitterness and Hatred....You need to keep feeding your dark side...
"Why don't you ever post about those that are being saved? Why don't you post about those marriages that are being healed? Why don't you post about those who are being delivered from drug and alcohol addiction? Why don't you post about the hungry being fed and the prisoners being visited and the homeless being served."
"Oh.....that would be counterproductive to you Bitterness and Hatred....You need to keep feeding your dark side..."
I would like to ask you the same questions about your comment.
You are complaining because the Watchdog is complaining.
Ironic.
Anon Said:
Oh.....that would be counterproductive to you Bitterness and Hatred....You need to keep feeding your dark side...
December 7, 2010 2:48 PM
I Say:
No bitterness, no hatred, just the truth coming out about the "dark side" that is coming to light that have been hidden for so long in the churches.
The dark side of the church is what is being exposed - the Mega churches are now in a swirling storm.
The new construction probably will be paid for before it is finished. $1 million dollars invested and earning 5% interest annually can generate money enough to for added maintenance costs. A new/new-ish building is nicer/more efficient than an old/older building (if this one isn't more efficient, its designer should be terminated for sure).
For me: the main thing is the probable overkill on expenses even if the project is paid for now. Probably too much form, rather than primarily function, adding to the project costs and subtracting from more ministry. However, I will say that if FBCD is paying $365,000 for campus security, then I want that job!
Everybody lead somebody to the Lord today; use words if you have to.
The new construction probably will be paid for before it is finished. $1 million dollars invested and earning 5% interest annually can generate money enough to for added maintenance costs. A new/new-ish building is nicer/more efficient than an old/older building (if this one isn't more efficient, its designer should be terminated for sure).
For me: the main thing is the probable overkill on expenses even if the project is paid for now. Probably too much form, rather than primarily function, adding to the project costs and subtracting from more ministry. However, I will say that if FBCD is paying $365,000 for campus security, then I want that job!
Everybody lead somebody to the Lord today; use words if you have to.
anon 10:30 Dungheap? Now that's funny. People, it's a very beautiful, expensive,impressive work of art, (unnecessary to say the least) However, in "Jesus speak" let's say it's going to visually draw folks to Christ or some such nonsense. Anything you want as a self indulgent pastor or wealthy church member...just apply "Christian speak" and it all sounds so spiritual. Try it, it works! We've fallen for it for years.
Anon. 8:39, I told you it was funny.
When someone tosses a bottle of dishwashing soap into that pool, with the cap removed, it will a cleansing for downtown dallas for sure.
This marketing gimmick needs a good sudsing, to prevent the dreaded drive-by baptisms.
I guess I just assumed that Jeffress would pay for the upkeep of this fountain by all the passers-by tossing their change into the fountain.
Wouldn't that then make Jeffress a genius for coming up with yet another way to get money!?
Does anyone have the name of the one tither giving $365,000 for the fountain? I have this bridge between Manhatten and Brooklyn that he might be interested in....
Correct spelling version
Are the mission churches being planted in places where churches do not already exist? Or are they instead being planted in other Pastors' pastures? Is this being done for the glory of God or the glory of FBCJ?
Why do you call my opinion anti-church? Just because I disagree with you does not make me anti-church. Or as the bumper sticker says, "Descent is not unpatriotic."
Meanwhile, back in Jacksonville, law enforcement is still going after harmless dogs...
Anon 8:39,
That's the truth. If you want to do something, you say, "I feel led to...."
Also, will the fountain have different colored lights if there's a big football win in Texas, at Christmas, etc? That would be cool. I mean "bring glory."
Be sure and check out this morning DMN. Media king RJ got on the front page with his "Naughty list". Very poor witness to nonchristians this season. So sad what happened to our church.
"Media king RJ" ??
More like Media HOUND!
Be sure and check out this morning DMN.
Oh, good grief.
I'm with Ben Stein on this one. It's actually an improvement if a store clerk says "Happy Holidays" because most of the time they don't even say "thank you." IMO "Merry Christmas," "Happy Holidays," or "have a nice day" is still not a suitable substitute for a smile and a "thank you."
Also, will the fountain have different colored lights if there's a big football win in Texas, at Christmas, etc? That would be cool. I mean "bring glory."
LOL! Well, it is Texas, isn't it? Trying to think how that would work though. Green for Baylor, orange for Texas, maroon for Texas A&M, purple for TCU, red and blue for SMU... wait, that would make purple. Red for Christmas... the possibilities are endless. Maybe a computer-controlled colored-lighting system so it could be multi-colored. They could sell sponsorships to organizations wanting their colors represented.
Jeffress and his naughty or nice list. What a STUNT! He's going to need to do stunts to get his project paid for. And make no mistake this is a stunt!
If you are interested go to grinchalert.com. You will see it in all of it's "glory".
This is nothing but bullying people/corporations into saying Merry Christmas and celebrating Christmas.
His reason for this Fountain is right out of the Holy Word of God!
Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
This holy fountain will do more to further the Kingdom of God than all you losers combined!
Psalm 36:9
For with you is the fountain of life;
Psalm 87:7
“All my fountains are in you.”
Proverbs 5:18
May your fountain be blessed
Proverbs 14:27
The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life
Passage after Passage PROVE that this Holy Fountain is GOD'S WILL!
Anonymous December 8, 2010 9:08 PM = Scary
Holy fountain? Does it use Holy water too? Are you going to walk across the water when it'f finished?
This holy fountain will do more to further the Kingdom of God than all you losers combined!
==========================
How will this earthly work called a fountain futher gods kingdom? Is there a magical garabatos that radiates fron the water? Will the water be holy from the Pope him self? Will some salt be added to the water? Etc. Inspire us please!
This holy fountain will do more to further the Kingdom of God than all you losers combined!
Here we go, more reliance on holy relics, holy objects and so called holy men. Junk worship. Shamanism, pure and simple.
Now who is really losing it here? Who is lost in this discussion? Who will be the loser in the final analysis.
Garlando
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiNo3GVXtho
Dr. Dog check this youtube viedo that if looked right has fountain parallels
How will this earthly work called a fountain futher gods kingdom? Is there a magical garabatos that radiates fron the water? Will the water be holy from the Pope him self? Will some salt be added to the water? Etc. Inspire us please!
**********************
For starters, the fountain will be a reminder to all who followed God and helped see it built that God is an awesome God and as a result will be encouraged to stay true to what they know God is asking of them. I know for me, when I see God at work and I follow Him, it drives me to want to keep following Him. No matter the cost.
Don't you think it is better to see how God provided through something as insignificant as a fountain tan to live to find fault in what other people choose to do?
What good did it do anyone for someone like Cathy Griffen to put down Bristol Palin? It did no one any good.
What good does it do to spend so much time belly aching about a fountain and its cost. Most of you probably don't give to your church generously anyway and yet you want to criticize how other people and churches spend the money they receive.
HMMMM, I like the comparison.
This is why so many non-Christians view Christians as zealots who can't differentiate between healthy discussiona and criticism and personal attacks.
I am critical of a Baptist pastor leading his church into spending money to hire a fountain design team to make an elaborate fountain on the campus, then pay for a computer simulation to "knock the socks off" of the congregation....and then saying it will "architecturally" lead people to Jesus.
That is clear, logical thinking, and I encourage people from both sides to discuss it.
However, to somehow compare that to personal, ugly, vicious attacks against Bristol Palin is beyond ridiculous. Bristol Palin is a young woman who became the target of vicious attacks from her mom's political opponents. Entirely different matter, my friend.
But it seems folks at FBC Dallas can't think too clearly these days. They have a website set up to label companies as "grinches" if they don't give the correct Christmas greeting...and they actually think giving money to a computerized fountain will architecturally lead people to Jesus.
The world is laughing.
"For starters, the fountain will be a reminder to all who followed God and helped see it built that God is an awesome God"
Couldn't they just look up at the stars instead? Much more awe inspiring and yet totally free.
"will be encouraged to stay true to what they know God is asking of them."
And what exactly is God asking of them? More buildings? More salaries? More trips down the Danube? More private jets?
If my memory serves me, I believe that Christ's last command was to evangelize the world. How many souls will the water fountain lead to Christ?
"I know for me, when I see God at work and I follow Him, it drives me to want to keep following Him. No matter the cost."
What does this have to do with a pretentious water fountain?
"Don't you think it is better to see how God provided through something as insignificant as a fountain tan to live to find fault in what other people choose to do?"
Don't you think that this money would have been better spent on doing the work that Christ commanded instead of a "look at me" monument to man?
"What good did it do anyone for someone like Cathy Griffen to put down Bristol Palin? It did no one any good."
Wow - that is a bizarre analogy.
"What good does it do to spend so much time belly aching about a fountain and its cost."
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Bible teaches us to not only love God with our soul and spirit but with our mind. Use your brain and don't be a blind sheep. Every Christian will be held accountable for the stewardship of what they have been given. A multi-million dollar water fountain is bad stewardship period.
"Most of you probably don't give to your church generously anyway"
You have absolutely no way of knowing how much anyone here gives. I'll turn it around on you. There are probably many people here that give more than you do. It's just that they are wise in their giving and don't follow men blindly even when it is obvious that you are wasting God's resources.
"and yet you want to criticize how other people and churches spend the money they receive."
Didn't Christ overturn the tables of the merchants in the temple and drive them out. I wonder what he would think of spending millions in tithes on a high-tech water gun?
However, to somehow compare that to personal, ugly, vicious attacks against Bristol Palin is beyond ridiculous. Bristol Palin is a young woman who became the target of vicious attacks from her mom's political opponents. Entirely different matter, my friend.
****************
I agree it is wrong what Kathy Griffen did. Just as wrong as what you are doing. Too many here are like the gossip who says they don't gossip, they just share their concerns.
Not everyone will wear your shoes, your way and do things as you like. SO why attempt to see it happen that way?
If you can't see the blessing of the fountain is that a fault of yours or FBCD?
Your answer: FBCD. But it will be wrong.
Wow, Jon Estes...a blast from the past.
Love your quote, Jon:
"I agree it is wrong what Kathy Griffen did. Just as wrong as what you are doing."
Yep, what she did was wrong. In your opinion, what I did was wrong. And what Hitler did was wrong, and Bin Laden...come on. There is a difference between critical analysis of a church and their expenditure of church finances on a grandoise fountain under the pretenses that it will help lead people to Jesus....and a foul-mouthed comedian taking cheap shots of the child of a politician she doesn't like.
But keep the comments coming Jon. The more we hear from pastors defending the indefensible, and attacking those who dare to question and criticize, the more people are wising up.
Thanks for letting me post again (not that you banned me) but I did find a parallel with the comparison.
There is a difference between critical analysis of a church and their expenditure of church finances on a grandoise fountain under the pretenses that it will help lead people to Jesus....and a foul-mouthed comedian taking cheap shots of the child of a politician she doesn't like.
************
Maybe there is a difference if you look at things with lenses of good vs. bad instead of right vs. wrong.
What is right about what you are doing Tom and what, biblically, makes it right?
I can list some good things about some of your stuff but not all good things are right things. Therefore we must be careful to make what is right, not just good in our eyes, the basis for what we do.
"Maybe there is a difference if you look at things with lenses of good vs. bad instead of right vs. wrong."
A distinction without a difference.
"What is right about what you are doing Tom and what, biblically, makes it right?"
You mean criticizing someone publicly, like what you are doing?
"I can list some good things about some of your stuff but not all good things are right things."
Good = Wrong
"Therefore we must be careful to make what is right, not just good in our eyes, the basis for what we do."
Would a multi-million dollar water fountain qualify.
"For starters, the fountain will be a reminder to all who followed God and helped see it built that God is an awesome God"
Couldn't they just look up at the stars instead? Much more awe inspiring and yet totally free.
"will be encouraged to stay true to what they know God is asking of them."
And what exactly is God asking of them? More buildings? More salaries? More trips down the Danube? More private jets?
If my memory serves me, I believe that Christ's last command was to evangelize the world. How many souls will the water fountain lead to Christ?
"I know for me, when I see God at work and I follow Him, it drives me to want to keep following Him. No matter the cost."
What does this have to do with a pretentious water fountain?
"Don't you think it is better to see how God provided through something as insignificant as a fountain tan to live to find fault in what other people choose to do?"
Don't you think that this money would have been better spent on doing the work that Christ commanded instead of a "look at me" monument to man?
"What good did it do anyone for someone like Cathy Griffen to put down Bristol Palin? It did no one any good."
Wow - that is a bizarre analogy.
"What good does it do to spend so much time belly aching about a fountain and its cost."
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Bible teaches us to not only love God with our soul and spirit but with our mind. Use your brain and don't be a blind sheep. Every Christian will be held accountable for the stewardship of what they have been given. A multi-million dollar water fountain is bad stewardship period.
"Most of you probably don't give to your church generously anyway"
You have absolutely no way of knowing how much anyone here gives. I'll turn it around on you. There are probably many people here that give more than you do. It's just that they are wise in their giving and don't follow men blindly even when it is obvious that you are wasting God's resources.
"and yet you want to criticize how other people and churches spend the money they receive."
Didn't Christ overturn the tables of the merchants in the temple and drive them out. I wonder what he would think of spending millions in tithes on a high-tech water gun?
"Don't you think it is better to see how God provided through something as insignificant as a fountain tan to live to find fault in what other people choose to do?"
Wouldn't this also apply to your criticism of this blog?
"I agree it is wrong what Kathy Griffen did. Just as wrong as what you are doing."
I agree that what Kathy Griffin did was wrong. Just as wrong as you criticizing the WD.
Don't you have anything better to do than to tear God's man down?
Not that difficult to figure. To keep the "big" people happy, and make the "little" people feel connected to something important and grand, you've got to provide nice, elaborate, entertaining (sometimes pretentious) things. The grander it is, the more folks want to be part of it and... (drum roll) more people=more tithe.
Throw a little "christian speak" on it and the sheep don't even question it.
I just had an idea for a fountain (with landscaping) that might have a better chance of opening hearts and minds to Christ. It starts with a tiny source of water surrounded by very dry desert conditions. As the fountain flows it gets larger and the surrounding landscaping gets more lush and inviting to stop and rest. At the very end, there is a large pool, with fish, if possible, a drinking fountain, and a plaque that says, "I am the water of Life, whoever comes to me will never thirst. Jesus"
Does anyone remember what happened on the mount of transfiguration? Do you remember how Peter wanted to build a memorial? What does the scripture say about Peter and his three shelters? Does this not apply here?
People come to Christ because of our witness, and sometimes it seems in spite of our witness, not because of churches, cathedrals, memorials, fountains, etc.
Actually, what Kathy Griffin did is very applicable. She did it because it is popular and entertaining. Just like these huge, expensive building campaigns. It does not matter that the buildings are not needed or that the improvements are unnecessary. We just have to keep building and adding onto and redoing and renovating so that we can keep the money flowing and that we may increase. In the end, we will pat ourselves on the back and say LOOK AT WHAT WE DID and oh yeah it was for the glory of god of course.
If my memory serves me, I believe that Christ's last command was to evangelize the world. How many souls will the water fountain lead to Christ?
**********
Ask the same thing about this blog?
"Don't you think it is better to see how God provided through something as insignificant as a fountain tan to live to find fault in what other people choose to do?"
Wouldn't this also apply to your criticism of this blog?
************
Thanks for seeing the value of this blog.
Don't you have anything better to do than to tear God's man down?
*********
At least I am speaking to him. Something those who are being criticized by this blog seem to overlook. Yes,it is easier to speak about someone than to them.
If I were in FL, I'd welcome the opportunity to sit down with Tom and discuss these things. Until then, I promise to not speak of him outside this blog.
Anon 12/9 - 6:15pm
You have described FBD perfectly. I couldn't have said it any better.
Oh, I see Estes is back! The same pastor who told the BBC bloggers to "not touch God's anointed man".
He really believes pastors have a special anointing other believers cannot have. Even when they protect pedophile ministers of prayer. Estes knows best, of course.
Hey Estes, did you get an interview for the job of headmaster at the FBCJax school? We know you inquired. Did you tell your church you are looking for another job?
Don't you have anything better to do than to tear God's man down?
December 9, 2010 3:49 PM
And here I thought God was no respecter of persons. He has "special people".
Did you see this? FBC Dallas is complaining about the commercialism of Christmas and creating a list of stores it's okay to shop at? Yet they don't see how commercialized their new building and fountain are?
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/09/dallas-church-rats-out-stores-that-say-happy-holidays-but-who/?icid=maing%7Cmain5%7C1%7Clink6%7C30228
"At least I am speaking to him."
Perhaps being served trespass papers from the police hindered the process.
"Yes,it is easier to speak about someone than to them."
Does this include your comments about the WD?
"If I were in FL, I'd welcome the opportunity to sit down with Tom and discuss these things."
Do you own a phone?
"Until then, I promise to not speak of him outside this blog."
So your promise is to only run him down with a world-wide audience and not with a few of your friends?
That's impressive.
"Ask the same thing about this blog?"
It sounds like you are comparing a blog that discusses issues in the church (and proper use of resources) with an inanimate object.
Apples and oranges.
By the way, how much of your tithing money was spent on this blog?
Hey Estes, did you get an interview for the job of headmaster at the FBCJax school? We know you inquired. Did you tell your church you are looking for another job?
***********
Inquired? I don't think so. Who gave you such information?
I never inquired about this job. It is not what I am called to be. I have no desire to live in Florida.
False accusations continue to be made, I see.
I didn't know I was looking for another job. I like the one I have.
Can you produce any source for such baseless facts? I've been a headmaster of a school, while planting a church. Of course this was when I was on the mission field in Nigeria.
Loved that job also.
Do you own a phone?
**********
You got a number?
"Oh, I see Estes is back! The same pastor who told the BBC bloggers to "not touch God's anointed man". "
*************
I remember when Dr. Rogers used that same passage dealing with those who were working to rid Criswell College of their, then, president.
Now to remind you the context that was not in that statement, which has been discussed since. I had no idea about SG keeping the man on staff and I have, on that same blog, stated clearly SG should step down.
But full context isn't that important if you want to make a case to support an anti position which won't hold water.
"You got a number?"
I'm sure that WD does.
"I remember when Dr. Rogers used that same passage dealing with those who were working to rid Criswell College of their, then, president."
Yes, the famous "airport" meeting described in Joel Gregory's book. The meeting was about bad boy Paige Patterson...once again one step ahead of the firing ax. Instead he just keeps getting promoted. And it was known that Criswell was certainly waiting to see where the wind blew on that one. Of course, he was protected because he was the CR poster boy. Not that any of them particularly liked him. And of course, Patterson did not particularly like Criswell, either. But, unfortuantly, he knew where the bodies were buried so he always gets a pass. (Too bad about his brother in law, an IMB trustee being investigated, tried and convicted on fraud charges and STAYED on the IMB board during the investigation. Such integrity from the Patterson camp in all things)
What makes you think Rogers is an idol of mine? He has no special anointing that any believer cannot have. Are you impressed with his big church and titles or something?
Do you read him or scripture? God is no respecter of persons. Sorry about that, Estes. Know you think you are special.
You do seem to be impressed with yourself. But you did say 'touch not thine anointed' on BBC open forum to rebuke the bloggers. But then you might have been right. Gaines is a bit like King Saul.
Anonymous said...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiNo3GVXtho
Dr. Dog check this youtube viedo that if looked right has fountain parallels
December 9, 2010 11:48 AM
Oh, wow, wow, wow. The connection between the Catholic Church, Adolph Hitler, 20th Century Fox, and the NIV Bible!
That is the most pitiful abuse and twisting of Scripture and history I have seen in a long time. Do people really believe that nonsense?
That is the most pitiful abuse and twisting of Scripture and history I have seen in a long time. Do people really believe that nonsense?
If it is the truth.
"Oh, wow, wow, wow. The connection between the Catholic Church, Adolph Hitler, 20th Century Fox, and the NIV Bible!"
"That is the most pitiful abuse and twisting of Scripture and history I have seen in a long time. Do people really believe that nonsense?"
Put on your tin foil hats boys.
20th Century Fox is going to make a movie about Catholic Nazis who are going to take over the world using the NIV Bible. Be very afraid.
Art Bell thinks that this conspiracy theory is as nutty as a Claxton fruit cake!
Catholic Nazis who are going to take over the world using the NIV Bible.
I dont believe the blogger said this. This is what your mind is telling you. Maby you should see a shrink or see a good pastor ont one who wants your money of course. The blogger just said there are parallels such as american churches who are on a power trip such as control or your money.
"I dont believe the blogger said this. This is what your mind is telling you. Maby you should see a shrink or see a good pastor ont one who wants your money of course. The blogger just said there are parallels such as american churches who are on a power trip such as control or your money."
Did you know that Americans never landed on the moon? It was all taped on a sound stage in Burbank.
There are spider eggs in Bubble Yum.
And Crocodiles lives in the sewers of NYC.
Get back on your medication.
It was all taped on a sound stage in Burbank.
Area 51
I've been a member of FBC Dallas for almost 35 yrs. I'm homebound now. However, when I walked in to First Baptist Church, I always felt warmth and God's love, even before the service began. I knew that the Holy Spirit was surely in that church.
When the choir sang, and the orchestra was playing, the music was a sermon within itself. And when Dr. Criswell got up to preach with his KJV, I just knew he was lead by the Holy Spirit, and many people came down front to accept Christ as Savior.
I think if Criswell could look down and see what Jeffress is doing to make that church look just like the Bellagio Hotel on the strip in Las Vegas, he'd die all over again.
Also, if I'm convicted by the Holy Spirit that what Jeffress is doing to the church is WRONG, and you who love what Jeffress is doing is RIGHT. It can't be both ways.
By the way, Jesus did say "the poor you will have with you always." But Jesus really never had much good to say about the rich, and He preferred to be around the poor. As for the wealthy, they always did love the verse "the poor you will have with you always." That figures!!!
Marcia
I too am a Dallas Native , my Great- Grandfather did the beautiful stained glass in the original sanctuary !! This is more than money this is our White History !!! This church does so much missionary work , help for homeless and minorities!!!! This church give alot to the impoverished of Dallas !!! People in America need to pull their hands back Stop expecting hand outs and let White Christian Americans To Celebrate Their Faith How They Choose !!!! This Was Not Built By Gov. Handouts!!! This is Art , this is still America , IN GOD WE TRUST!!!
How can they compare that ugly a$$$$ lighthouse to this beautiful fountain!! Sounds like more gibbsmedats wanting a handout!!!
Exactly and most of the noisy rude obnoxious tourists disrupt the locals prayers and services!!!
1) Did God not command his people not to build any images that we would worship. (except for the cross because we know more than God) Yet how many crosses are sold each year as jewelry? How many are constructed on churches?
What are we saying when we have churches on the steeples, in back of the podium, and in other rooms of our churches. Are we making the cross to be "common"?
2) While I do follow Colossians 3: 23-24, I also have to weigh that in everything that I do. Is my obedience to this passage, going to cause someone else to stumble? Is my design and construction of this church building going to honor my King, will it help others to worship the Creator? Or will some worship the creation instead?
RACIST. And this is one of the reasons I am no longer a member and another is the MONEY spent on opulance in which the church tries to attract "lost souls" And your pastor? Supporting Trump? What has your church become? I was a lifelong member to include my grandfather who was Dr.Criswell's penpal.
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