One of the more pressing problems in our churches today are church attenders who don't bring their bibles to church. Apparently, it is very difficult for an authoritarian pastor to convince people from the bible that NOT to have a pastor is "dangerous" (which the bible does not actually say), unless that person is holding the bible in their hands. The effect of the pastor's statements of his own importance in the lives of his followers will have much more impact, and be retained in their long-term memory if the sheep are holding that bible in their hands.Thus, as a public service to pastors who face this challenge of non-bible-bearing Christians, Watchdog has produced a training video especially for pastors on how to motivate your church members to bring their bible to your church service so that you can convince them that the bible says what YOU want them to think it says.
In the WD training video below, we have used an excellent example of Mac Brunson forcefully telling his church members they absolutely must have a bible in their hands, just moments before he tells them that house churches are a "movement" of people without, egads, a "pastor". And that Christians in house churches that don't have a pastor (i.e. "seminarian") are in "danger" for lack of a pastor. In the training video we examine step by step the masterful way Brunson exerts his pastoral dominance and authority over the plebe in the audience, in a very rude and condescending sort of way, just before he pulls a fast one out of his....bible.
Although this training video is provided for free, I do want to issue the following warning:
This training is for pastors only. This is an exclusive training video best suited for Southern Baptist pastors south of the Mason-Dixon line. If you are a lay person, a woman, an NIV-reader, or any FBC Jax employee, or a preacher north of the Mason-Dixon line, please do not watch this video, as it may be harmful to your ministry. Any questions about the techniques used should go directly to the pastor, not to the Watchdog. CEUs for completing this training are available upon request. Thank you. And PLEASE HAVE A BIBLE IN YOUR HAND. Enjoy.
76 comments:
Ha-ha-ha! Excellent training video! And did you notice how he lets everyone know he's hip and cool because he uses an iPad and iPhone? Hilarious!
Every Sunday he inserts the names of Vines & Lindsey which always pierces my heart as he doesn't even come close to being a pastor like they were but seems he always has to mention them to have our approval.
The members come but the majority simply don't like him and he knows it - they are designating their monies elsewhere & waiting the man out.
You really are possessed with Mac aren't you? Why not print something edifying about your new church and walk away from FBC.
Being a long time member of FBC, I find this hilarious. We have laughed at this ever since he has been there. You hit the nail on the head with this one. He ALWAYS brings up the Lindsays to make a point, especially when he is begging for money, which is practically every Sunday. Sorry we are such idiots and didn't know we would need a bible in church.
a pastor like they (Vines) were"
Don't bring Vines into this. The guy was and still is as phony as Al Gore. He demanded and received the copyrights of all his materials, books, sermons, and videos, etc. He also had his pay doubled since he was "doing the work of two pastors". I like thousands of others are glad he is gone.
Anon 10:19 - already walked away from FBC when we got our walking "papers". I continue to write and comment and parody matters in SBC and elsewhere in Christianity and that includes FBC Jax. You are obsessed with this blog. Say some edifying about me and walk away from it.
:)
Do you think those who do not bring their bible week after week need to be reminded? I do. I like the idea of a pastor who believes those who don't bring a bible need to be reminded of the importance of having it with them when they come to worship.
Mac's clip was tasteful and needs to be said every now and then.
A critique of the gestures and style of Mac is simply silly.
I enjoyed your training video. Please make more.
I grew up with pastors that emphasized attending every service, "be here in your place" and also regularly said stuff like "Does everybody here have their Bible? Raise it up, let me see them." I'd think the latter would sound kinda cult-like to any visitors, but...
I actually felt judgmental toward churches I later visited where there were Bibles stacked in the back or available in the pews. But for me anyway, walking into church with your own Bible seems a little old-fashioned and kinda over-dedicated, or something. Just my personal feeling. I actually like my own personal Bible. But if you take it to church, you have to keep up with it, carry it around, etc. How would I manage my coffee and donut at the same time?
Re his cufflinks-very nice. To me, that's unusual enough that I think I'd notice them. A distraction from the message? Or worse, a glaring contradiction to the message? Or just a man who likes to dress nice? A sure sign of wealth?
How can you be opposed to pastor's encouraging the members to bring Bibles....that is something that sould be done...people always have a copy of God's Word at church...sometimes your bitterness toward Mac Brunson shines through
I agree, people should be encouraged to bring their bibles. That is why I have this training video, so that pastors can watch his technique on how he accomplishes that worthy goal.
What do you have against pastors learning from the best?
"But if you take it [bible] to church, you have to keep up with it, carry it around, etc. How would I manage my coffee and donut at the same time? "
Good question Lynn. I hope someone has a good answer.
But seriously, it is what he teaches right AFTER this that helps give context to his forceful "encouragement" to bring their bibles. That will be one of the next posts...
"What do you have against pastors learning from the best?"
TIC???
Jon - glad you thought the slow-mo was silly. It was intended to be.
"Jon - glad you thought the slow-mo was silly. It was intended to be."
Even in our silliness could it be that we are throwing raw meat to the wolves who are drooling for an opportunity to slam Mac and anyone else who differs from them?
"What do you have against pastors learning from the best?"
The BEST is obviously your pastor at WBCJAX. He must push all your right buttons since you never make negative comments about it.
fyi,,Vines signed the support letter for Bob Reccord. He is no hero or person to follow. He is part of the problem.
jon, only leaders with influence can be wolves in the NT sense of the word. see Acts 20 for example. that would be guys like you and Mac
"jon, only leaders with influence can be wolves in the NT sense of the word."
I wasn't referring to the NT sense of he word. I was using it as a metaphor.
Thanks for helping me clear that up and not misunderstood.
This is the reality: The lighting in church is too indirect to really be able to see the pages in my bible well, and the version being read from isn't the same as mine.
I end up spending my energy on trying to focus on the page, then sort of being able to see enough to read one set of wording while hearing a different set of wording read aloud. Confusing. I end up missing it all. Nothing productive happened.
But I sure looked the part!
People learn and ingest information & process it differently. Having a bible in your hands in church sure looks appropriate, but it's not necessarily helpful & can be a distraction to mentally getting the point of the lesson.
Do you think those who do not bring their bible week after week need to be reminded? I do. I like the idea of a pastor who believes those who don't bring a bible need to be reminded of the importance of having it with them when they come to worship.
Mac's clip was tasteful and needs to be said every now and then.
A critique of the gestures and style of Mac is simply silly.
Jon, has a SB pastor ever done anything you disagree with?
You are as predictable as a calendar.
You are like the world's biggest Beatles fan posting to a Beatles board every day defending them against anything less than worship.
Boooooooring!
"Even in our silliness could it be that we are throwing raw meat to the wolves who are drooling for an opportunity to slam Mac and anyone else who differs from them?"
Jon, have you been watching MSNBC?
"I wasn't referring to the NT sense of he word. I was using it as a metaphor."
Word parsing again...
When I used to bring my personal Bible to church, I'd get distracted reading the interesting notes at the bottom of the page vs. listening to the sermon.
I don't see anything wrong with bringing your own Bible, but like someone mentioned, you may have a different translation, which is another distraction.
The last church I was in, the pastor would put the verses on a screen, which was helpful, since I'm a visual learner mostly.
Re the donuts and coffee, I guess churches didn't used to have refreshments, so it wasn't a problem to stand around talking and holding your Bible.
I think the point of this post, at least partly, is-why is it such a big deal? Does it mean you are doing something wrong if you don't bring your own Bible? Obviously not bringing it is disapproved of by this pastor, and supposedly by former pastors. Sounds so silly.
The best thing about bringing a copy of the Bible is that you have something to read if you are not getting much out of the sermon. It is a great help and you often find scripture that is a personal help.
I would suggest instead of being legalistic about carrying a bible to the church building, that folks actually study it in depth BEFORE they listen to pastors so they will recognize error from the stage. It is amazing how much pastors take out of context to fit the premise of their sermon.
Be a BEREAN.
I love your Vimeos, Dog.
I gave up taking my Bible into church. The pastor always puts up the Bible verses on the overhead, reads from the overhead, stops and makes comments from the overhead and likely is not reading the same version of the Bible that I have.
I have the Bible on my IPhone but do not turn on it on and instead read from the overhead.
So, if he stopped putting it overhead and read from the same version every week, I will turn on my phone and read along.
There is nothing magical about holding the leather (I assume Brunson would have nothing less).
Anon said.."a pastor like they (Vines) were"
"Don't bring Vines into this. The guy was and still is as phony as Al Gore."
"He demanded and received the copyrights of all his materials, books, sermons, and videos, etc. He also had his pay doubled since he was "doing the work of two pastors". I like thousands of others are glad he is gone."
May 11, 2011 10:26 AM
I TOTALLY AND WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE WITH YOU ON VINES!
A REAL SNAKE IN THE GRASS!
For most churches, and I have been to many, why bother to bring the Bible? Most just preach some - almost - unrelated topic with a proof text to support their opinions, which is what the the messages ultimately turn out to be.
Just another way to hit folks on the head I suppose.
Ever wonder why the church, in general, is on the road to no where?
For most churches, and I have been to many, why bother to bring the Bible? Most just preach some - almost - unrelated topic with a proof text to support their opinions, which is what the the messages ultimately turn out to be.
Just another way to hit folks on the head I suppose.
Ever wonder why the church, in general, is on the road to no where?
May 12, 2011 7:19 AM
You are right. People can see the proof text reads that way but if they do not know context they are easily fooled it means whatever the pastor says it means.
Dee, I have one on my smart phone, too.
This is a true man of God that desires his people to be in the Word!
I wish he would come to my town and pastor me and my family.
We need authority like this in the Church...we all like sheep go astray.
God bless Pastor Brunson...what a shephard!
One word - Obsessed.
Mac wants you to bring your big leather-bound KJV to church every Sunday morning. Just don't read it while you are at home or you might discover that there were 3 tithes in the OT and that they were always food and that they went to priests who weren't allowed to own anything and festivals and the poor. You might also discover that 2 Corintians 9:7 is the model for NT giving. Too much studying at home (or even worse at a home church), could negatively effect the pastor's salary. Better to just stick with tradition and make a big show (with Bible and suit) on Sunday morning. Form is more important than substance anyway.
"One word - Obsessed."
Yes, you do seem to be obsessed with this blog.
I think telling people to bring their Bible to church is just another rule about how to be a proper Christian. Being present at every service is another rule.
These rules must be important in the mind of the preacher or he wouldn't bring them up. Being in that environment, I think, makes people judgmental. They worry about having their Bible, not missing a service in "God's house," how long someone's hair is, how short someone's skirt is, whether they are giving 10% of their income (gross or net?) Do you see all the rules?
If I faithfully obey all these rules, am I impressing God??
I think the rules serve as a distraction and substitute for better things.
"Being in that environment, I think, makes people judgmental."
You do realize that this is a judgemental statement, right?
You are judging "church people" for being judgemental.
"I think telling people to bring their Bible to church is just another rule about how to be a proper Christian. Being present at every service is another rule."
For many it is so much more than rules. It is about loving each other and wanting the best for each other. Having ones own bible when they come to church to study the bible will allow them to mark things and make notations in their bible.
In reflection of another comment:
I've never heard a preacher speak that Christians should not study their bible at home. Everyone I know encourages Christians to do this. Does anyone know of a pastor who leads people to do otherwise?
Anon 9:44
You stated that Brunson wants us to bring our KJV Bible. I wish it was true.
You see, M. Brunson wants you to bring a watered down version (Or Perversion) of the Bible with you to church.
He uses the NASV , which does not come close to the KJV in correctly giving us God's teachings.
Even the kids in Sunday School have trouble memorizing the watered down Scripture verses.
Anon 7:19
You are correct...why bring a Bible to one of Brunson's sermons?
He only tells unrelated stories and history lessons. Who cares about his stories? I am there to here and be blessed fed by the Word of God. Not stupid stories!
"I've never heard a preacher speak that Christians should not study their bible at home. Everyone I know encourages Christians to do this. Does anyone know of a pastor who leads people to do otherwise?"
Not what I said dude. He can encourage them to read at home all he wants - knowing that they won't do it. That's very similiar to you saying that you don't care that your church members are ignorant about the tithe. You know that 99% of them are not going to take the time to research the issue and discover that what you teach is not supported by scripture.
"He uses the NASV , which does not come close to the KJV in correctly giving us God's teachings."
You are too liberal for me brother. I'll bet you use one of those "modern" KJV Bibles published in 1689 instead of the orignal 1611 with Gothic black lettering and old English spellings. The "learned men" were not only inspired in their words but also in the original spelling. To modernize their spelling is just as wrong as to modernize the wording.
Also Paul taught us that God's word was "unbound." I'll bet your Bible has a binding.
"Not what I said dude. He can encourage them to read at home all he wants - knowing that they won't do it. "
So he encourages them knowing they will not do it? Either you think the preacher is brilliant or the people or dumb or... you are wrong.
I think he does it hoping they will listen, pick up their bibles at home and spend time in it.
"So he encourages them knowing they will not do it?
I thought that point had already been established.
"Either you think the preacher is brilliant or the people or dumb or... you are wrong."
Bad logic. Those are not the only possiblities. The preacher doesn't need to be brilliant to pull the wool over the flock's eyes when most of them are biblically illiterate, and many others are too intimidated to speak.
The biblically illiterate are not necessarily dumb. They are just undeducated in interpreting scripture in context.
Others are not given a chance to speak or are labeled as troublemakers that should be "shut down" or perhaps served with tresspass papers if they are too persistent.
Either way, you confirmed my statement when you said that it didn't bother you that your congregation held on to a unbiblical model of giving.
"I think he does it hoping they will listen, pick up their bibles at home and spend time in it."
Just not the parts that contradict his teachings on Sunday, right?
I'm sure that you hope that your congregation doesn't read Psalm 105 at home and discover that what you teach is completely out of context.
From John R. Anderson
One of the most common errors found in Christianity today is that particular persons, usually pastors or evangelists, are somehow more "anointed" than the average Christian. This teaching often coincides with a veiled threat in the form of "touch not mine [the Lord's] anointed," (I Ch. 16:22, Ps. 105:15).
"Others are not given a chance to speak or are labeled as troublemakers that should be "shut down" or perhaps served with tresspass papers if they are too persistent."
Those who believe they have been "shut down" or whatever, do any of these communication problems deal with doctrine or biblical arguments?
It is a sad situation in many churches today that "laity" are content to sit on a pew week after week and assume the opinions of professional clergymen are to be the final authority. They find comfort in this approach because it is safe. Preachers are content to keep it this way because it secures their position in the church.
Proponents of this error fail to use careful exegesis to discern the difference between the Old Testament call of a "prophet," where the anointing rested on one man (Is. 61:1, I Sam. 26:9,11, 2 Sam. 22:51, 2 Chr. 6:42), and the New Testament call of a "priesthood of believers" (I Pet. 2:5,9). Certainly there are diversities of gifts, but the Spirit [or anointing] remains the same (I Cor. 12). Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, and many others have long terrorized God's people with "touch not mine anointed" nonsense if anyone dared question them or their teaching. Anyone who has a gift (all have gifts, 1 Cor. 12:7-11), has a ministry, and anyone who has a ministry, has authority and is anointed.
The term "anointing" means to "authorize, or set apart, a person for a particular work or service," (Is.61:1). The New Testament is absolutely clear on whom the anointing rests - ALL of Christ's disciples, who are God's very own, set apart and commissioned for service (2 Cor. 1:21). The New Testament does not support the notion of a "greater" anointing based on "position" and such teaching has its origin in a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between the Old and New Testaments.
"Those who believe they have been "shut down" or whatever, do any of these communication problems deal with doctrine or biblical arguments?"
Jon, you are a pastor. You know the answer to this question.
Church members are kept in line when they see what happens to "Bereans."
For instance, recently, when two well-respected seminary professors wrote a book on NT giving, Les Puryear called their employer and tried to get them fired.
Ironcially Les is the one now looking for a job.
Deplorable.
I personally wouldn't consider going to church without my Bible. I was brought up that way and it has never harmed me. BUT, I doubt very seriously that Mac is really concerned about whether we have a Bible in our hands during the sermon. Nope, he is trying belittle people who don't do as he says. This is Psychology 101. Demean and demand... I AM YOUR LEADER and you WILL OBEY.
First when they quote a particular part of scripture, it takes time for everyone to find it, especially if they aren't familiar with the Bible, you know, Baby Christians, etc. Then they flash the scripture over the video panels, and when the scripture they are showing doesn't match what your Bible says, there are a few moments of reconciling the two.
Mac is not concerned with the Bible here, he is concerned with manipulating the flock to follow him without questions. I can't understand why the membership puts up with this behavior. I've never seen him do a sermon that is edifying. He is very simply a bully.
Christians do not place yourself under the authority of a Pastor who is not a Godly man.
"Christians do not place yourself under the authority of a Pastor who is not a Godly man."
Precisely why I left my church years ago. Now when you look on line at the Sunday AM service they have so few people the sanctuary.
""Those who believe they have been "shut down" or whatever, do any of these communication problems deal with doctrine or biblical arguments?"
Jon, you are a pastor. You know the answer to this question."
Actually, from what I have seen on this blog and its complaints against any laity, I have not seen any doctrinal issue that is the reason used to "shut down" anyone. It seems to be more of a "shut down" the complainer.
As far as me, where I pastor every person has the right to speak.
"Church members are kept in line when they see what happens to "Bereans.""
Bereans - A term people give themselves to say, "my interpretation is right, yours is wrong."
"For instance, recently, when two well-respected seminary professors wrote a book on NT giving, Les Puryear called their employer and tried to get them fired."
Did Les attempt to have them fired or ask if these things should be being taught at our seminaries?
"Ironcially Les is the one now looking for a job."
Actually, Les is working and is following God's call upon his life to plant a church. Walking away in obedience to God does not mean he was let go. Using that comparison since you mentioned he tried to get some people fired. Something he has denied, I believe.
"Something he has denied, I believe."
This was meant to be in relation to having two persons fired.
"Actually, from what I have seen on this blog and its complaints against any laity, I have not seen any doctrinal issue that is the reason used to "shut down" anyone. It seems to be more of a "shut down" the complainer."
That's why I gave you the example Jon - so you wouldn't be able to make that claim.
But you ignored it and made the claim anyway. Disappointing.
By the way, the "shut down" phrase comes from a sermon that Mac preached not long ago about shutting up dissenters.
"dissenters."
Doctrinal dissenters?
"As far as me, where I pastor every person has the right to speak."
Really? You mean a person can stand up in your church during the service and question an unbiblical teaching without being rebuked later? I would serioulsly doubt that. And that's the problem with the way the traditional church service is structured today.
The pastor becomes a giant mouth and the congregation becomes a giant ear.
That is not the precedent that was handed down from the first century church.
On a personal note, when I asked you follow up questions to a tradition that you were following without bibilcal support, I was quoted scripture about foolish questions even though they were logical follow-up questions.
I would assume that you would do the same with your congregation.
"Doctrinal dissenters?"
The way he was yelling and stomping in the video, it sounded like anyone who didn't fall into lock-step on any issue.
"Bereans - A term people give themselves to say, "my interpretation is right, yours is wrong."
Jon, you are a closet relativist. This is the argument they always use. As if there is no correct way to interpret scripture. No absolute truths. Of course, this way of thinking is self-defeating, because the relativist thinks he is right just like the non-relativist. The only difference is that the relativist is calling the other person a name. That adds nothing to the discussion.
The Bible teaches us to compare what the teacher says against scripture (the final court of arbitration) and hold fast to what is true. I will follow that teaching instead of one from the culture.
"Did Les attempt to have them fired or ask if these things should be being taught at our seminaries?"
It's all documented on this blog. Do a search.
I believe that post was titled: Les Puryear meets Sherif Wade Burlesson.
Your video was disrespectful and very Un-Christ like.
Would Jesus make a video like that?
Woul Jesus repeatedly try to tear a Brother down in a public arena like a blog?
Are you a Christian?
By their fruits you will know them......
My head hurts from this and I am sure God's heart hurts....
"Actually, Les is working and is following God's call upon his life to plant a church. Walking away in obedience to God does not mean he was let go. Using that comparison since you mentioned he tried to get some people fired. Something he has denied, I believe."
Again, you are having trouble following my comments Jon. Where did I say he wasn't working?
Perhaps that wasn't clear enough for you. He is trying to get back into the ministry. How's that?
How do you know what God's call for Les' life is? Wouldn't Les and God be the only ones to truely know that?
Didn't say he was let go. You should really try to just read just the words that I write and not insert your own motivations and assumptions.
He did until the email was published.
"Your video was disrespectful and very Un-Christ like."
So are your comments on this blog.
"Would Jesus make a video like that?"
Would Jesus ask a question like that?
"Woul Jesus repeatedly try to tear a Brother down in a public arena like a blog?"
You mean like you are doing to WD on this blog?
"Are you a Christian?"
Are you?
"By their fruits you will know them......"
Is criticism a fruit?
"My head hurts from this and I am sure God's heart hurts...."
Then don't read this blog...TROLL!
Finally, Blogger is back up....Jon, you may resume commenting.
:)
I would like to buy these preachers for what they are worth, and sell them for what they think they are worth! As far as "following along" with the preacher is concerned, many times they don't use Bibles I find acceptable. Too many errors in most Bibles. I use MY own Bible and allow God to impart to me what He wants to. God is not the author of confusion. Therefore unless you use the preachers Bible (which I don't) you have confusion. No thanks. And just for the record just because a church hires the preacher doesn't mean he is qualified and knows more than anyone else no matter what seminary he went to or because he puts Dr., in front of his name. I have seen preachers make monumental mistakes time after time. Plus not many preachers know how to treat people. Their arrogance is too much of a stumbling block. I don't waste time with them any longer. Just as a passing comment.... Dr. Lindsay was the last real preacher FBC had. He preached the Word from a real Bible.
Our weekly emailed newsletter from our church includes the scripture passages for Sunday, so you can read them at home. Our Friday men's breakfast studies and discusses the passage (frequently led by the pastor). So then you can listen intently to the pastor on Sunday without being distracted. Of course, some close their eyes to concentrate on what is being said instead of looking at the tie or cufflinks or the cute kid in the next pew, or doze!
WD,
you should be proud that he endorsed bringing the Bible and not your tithing envelope every Sunday.
Pastor Chris
WD,
you should be proud that he endorsed bringing the Bible and not your tithing envelope every Sunday.
Pastor Chris
This Is revolting! What a coward you are for printing garbage like this.
Is this what God wants you to do?
Do you feel this is helping anyone?
I feel sorry for you, did you have a bad childhood?
I bet the Devil loves this blog.
Coward?? Not. He's simply acknowledging the elephant(s) in the room.
Anon 11:03
You say "This Is revolting! What a coward you are for printing garbage like this.
Is this what God wants you to do?"
WHAT'S REALLY REVOLTNG!
More revolting is what Mac Brunson & Judge Soud said in the Florida Times Union about a member of the church, even more revolting is banning an innocent member from church grounds.
It's obvious you have no clue the viciousness of these church leaders. My question is did God really want the Brunson to do what he did? Was that not revolting.
This blog has been a blessing to many and yes he has helped many who post here - so have the pastors & other wise men of the word.
This is the antithesis of Jack Hyles who would read one verse, take it out of context and tell people to close their Bibles and listen to him. This is classic! Also glad that I am not in the South anymore either...
I think this video is overdone. Analyzing every finger and head movement of Mac is unnecessary and unneeded and comes off the wrong way.
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