"God knows how to poke holes in your purses if you're not following Him. Those of you that are not tithing, you will not get that money yourselves. God's gonna poke a hole in your wallet, every kid you have is going to have a snotty nose, everything in your house is going to start to break, your car is going to break down and everything else. If you don't tithe, you'll never spend that extra money you're stealing from God." Steve Gaines, September 11, 2011.
-------------------
This time Gaines directs his message to women where they are most vulnerable: that if you don't tithe, ladies, your kids will "have snotty noses", and God will "poke holes in your purses". Notice the condescension in his voice in the video as he says "every kid you have..."
Strange, but I haven't heard Gaines yet pronouncing judgments on the men who haven't obeyed the Old Testament law of circumcision. Of course circumcision doesn't raise revenue at the church, so he leaves that law alone.
Gaines not only continues to put forth unbiblical teaching - putting Christians under the curses of the law when we know Christ became our curse - but it is absolute stupidity. You have to be a moron to not see the logical fallacies in his argument.
He is saying that your kids will get sick, because this will cost you money and his premise is that God won't let you keep money that you stole from him, the first 10% of your income.
But what if you have excellent health insurance and don't have to pay much to get treatment for your kids' illnesses? Then God would have to make your kids REALLY sick so you have to pay more out of pocket, right? Those of you with no health insurance, good for you, because God can give you a gut punch with just one trip to the doctor. Those of you with health insurance, well, God will have to really bring the hammer down on your kids.
Maybe the very wealthy who don't tithe, God will have to even deliver brain tumors, or leukemia to their kids to get all that money from them they are stealing from God. Dee at the Wartburg Watch has written about how their family went through the pain and sorrow of her daughter's brain tumor, from which she was completely healed. How irresponsible is it for Gaines to plant the idea in the mind of a young mother that her failure to tithe would somehow affect the health of her child?
But let's be real. 99.9% of the mothers sitting in the audience know that this guy is a self-serving windbag. They know there is no correlation between their giving and the health of their kids (except perhaps those who fork money over to their church instead of buying health insurance). The children of tithers aren't any healthier than those of non-tithers. People's fridges and cars and air conditioners break down regardless of whether they are tithing or not. People know it. They just tolerate Gaines's idiocy for whatever reason.
Gaines is not the first preacher lately who has misused this scripture from Hagaii to tell Christians that God will bring harm to their personal possessions if they don't tithe. Mac Brunson did it last November, in his sermon from Hagaii in which Brunson declared "God collects" on what he is owed, like some sort of cosmic loan shark.
If the Apostle Paul were alive today, he would stand and read the book of Galatians to guys like Brunson and Gaines. In Galatians Paul deals with the Judaizers - those who sought to put Christians under the Old Testament Law. When you get right down to it, that is what Gaines and Brunson are when they preach the Old Testament tithing law: they are Judaizers. Paul's answer to the attempts of the Judaizers was:
"However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, 'He who practices them shall live by them.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us..." Galatians 3:12-13
And I would remind all of us Christians, of Paul's strong words to those Christians who gave in and submitted to the demands of these Judaizers:
"Behold, I Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law." Galatians 5:2-3
Strong words for those who sit under the teaching of these men and can't discern the error that they are hearing.
--------------------------
H/T: Chris Rosebrough's analysis on tithing, Fighting for the Faith, 9/8/11
Does he really believe this?
ReplyDeleteIf so, what does this say of our modern seminary education and who we raise up as our "heroes"?
If he doesn't believe this, then how does he live with himself?
Amen, Josh. It is hard to reconcile either way statements coming from the most prominent, mainstream pulpits these days. And what makes it even more troubling is how many people put up with it and continue to fund these temples.
ReplyDeleteWhere am I to go? I got away from the prosperity preachers years ago because of this very same thing; God'll getcha for that or this! It's a shame the SBC has gone health/wealth...just how long will it be before we have to use our "faith" to get healed or be rich?
ReplyDeleteWhen Gaines first came to Bellevue, he rarely (if ever) preached on tithing. Only after he made some extremely poor decisions and was featured on the front page of the Commercial Appeal resulting in a church split and loss of 1/2 the membership (and funds), did he start harping on OT giving. Is that a coincidence or is it because he has had to cut the budget several years in a row? I'll leave that for you to decide.
ReplyDeleteI am still waiting for the first Baptist preacher to explain why they gave 3 tithes in the OT and they preach one tithe for today.
The typical tithe sermon is preceded by a warning that the entire Bible is still applicable for today. Then the preacher usually violates his own mandate and leaves out two OT tithes.
Hagaii 1:4
ReplyDelete"Is it a time for you yourselves to be living in your paneled houses, while this house remains a ruin?"
I wonder if anyone laughed out loud when this verse was quoted as they sat in a palatial mega-church with giant chandeliers, mega-screen flat panel tvs, and a state of the art sound system. The average attenders house (by comparison) would be the one in ruins.
Hey, if vaccines do not cause Autism Spectrum Disorder, maybe not tithing does. :) We can turn the anti-vaccine crowd into the pro-tithing crowd.
ReplyDeleteJust another way to make parents feel guilty over their children. Honestly, I am a big enough target, if God misses me and hits my kids, what a bad God.
Gaines gets away with it because there is no one in his congregation with the power and the guts to stand up to him. All who are in "leadership" are rabid "cool-aid" drinkers who get strokes and know that opposing him on anything would result in loss of their perks. It takes gutless wonders to keep a heartless pastor in the pulpit.
ReplyDeleteThis is an example of SG's recent offertory prayers. He pours it on thick. Note the (ab)use of OT scripture to guilt the sheeple into digging deeper.
ReplyDeleteThe "Robert" he mentioned who preached that night was Robert Jeffress.
Gaines gets away with it because there is no one in his congregation with the power and the guts to stand up to him.
ReplyDeleteOh, there are plenty of powerbrokers in the church. I've no doubt if they stood up to him as one he'd be gone tomorrow, but it's not going to happen. The reasons are varied and complicated, but the bottom line is it could harm a lot of people's personal interests to rock the boat. I also wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have a long-term contract so that legally they couldn't get rid of him without an ugly legal battle.
Most of all don't forget that people who have skeletons in their closets will protect those they know have skeletons in theirs. Why do you think there's so much emphasis on mutual accountability in these organizations? Read the Eight Marks of a Mind-Control Cult and ask yourself if a lot of these things don't sound like exactly what's happening in today's megachurches.
Why. Do. People. Keep. Attending.
ReplyDeleteThis time Gaines directs his message to women where they are most vulnerable: that if you don't tithe, ladies, your kids will "have snotty noses", and God will "poke holes in your purses". Notice the condescension in his voice in the video as he says "every kid you have..."
ReplyDeleteCondescending? Yes. Targeted at women? I didn't get that. "Purse" is in the KJV and some other translations, but in others the word is "pockets" or "bags." In those days everyone carried their money in pouches aka purses. Actually women may not have carried money at all.
The "snotty-nosed kids" comment could be interpreted to be directed more at mothers, but if you're married and have kids, the financial responsibility for them falls with the family, not just the mother. I can see how a single mother would feel pressured by such a message though.
Make no mistake about it. He was talking to everyone with money, no matter their circumstances. There may be pink and blue "roles" in the church, but everyone's money is green, and Steve wants a minimum of 10% of the gross, the check made out to Bellevue Baptist Church in an undesignated fashion.
The reason he is still there is that the sheeple there deserve him. I would not walk across the street to hear anything he has to say.
ReplyDeleteI think it is a calculated comment directed at mothers. Typically mothers more than fathers are acutely sensitive to any and every ailment of their child. Ed Young has used the "man up" plea, saying "your woman wants you to lead, she wants you to tithe"...and Perry Noble blames men and their love of boy toys for the lack of tithing. So plant the idea that non tithing affects the health of children. That is my point.
ReplyDeleteSo how does SG explain the billionaire pagans in the world? Many of them live long robust lives in the lap of luxury and enjoy good health.
ReplyDeleteAnd if 95% of Christians (according to Barna) don't give 10%, shouldn't they all have unhealthy kids? Why does it only seem to happen to a few?
Look around the parking lot of any mega-church and you will see really nice cars. They seem to be doing quite well for those living under a curse.
I'll bet that any poor 3rd world country villager would trade places with this cursed individual.
It must be tough to try to believe in something that you know doesn't work out in the world you live in.
So plant the idea that non tithing affects the health of children. That is my point.
ReplyDeletePoint taken. :-)
So how does SG explain the billionaire pagans in the world? Many of them live long robust lives in the lap of luxury and enjoy good health.
He explains that they're getting their reward in this world.
Look around the parking lot of any mega-church and you will see really nice cars. They seem to be doing quite well for those living under a curse.
If they're not forking over 10% of their gross income in an undesignated fashion to BBC those nice cars are stolen property.
If I attended his church, I would not walk to the nearest door, I would run.
ReplyDeleteI am more than surprised that there are people going to Bellevue. It is simply not the same church it once was. I think it is the old timers who treasure being a Bellevue member above all else. I think some of the people in the pews know their Bibles...so it has to be heavy on their hearts to get up and go every Sunday morning. People, the megachurch with all its splendor and programs for it's own, is surely going to be past tense. No longer can people "stomach" mega preachers who are biblically unsound, and morally corrupt. It seems to be all about money. Think of all the evangelists, the healers, the teary eyed Tammy Faye and Jim Bakker....he is once again on tv, hawking his wares to the sheeple. These people know that they have the ability to twist the heartstrings of hurting people for monetary gain. A relationship with Christ is one that is personal....no building built for prayer will ever be greater than the person who kneels at home...and comes to the Lord with his petitions and praise. I am so over the sight of Steve Gaines...
ReplyDeleteSteve and Mac have nothing on this guy...
ReplyDeleteIn 2008, Franklin Graham's compensation from the two ministries totaled $1.2 million, including $669,000 from BGEA.(Charlotte Observer Oct. 8, 2009)
As head of Samaritan's Purse, Graham earned more last year than any other leader of an international relief agency based in the United States. That includes eight with larger budgets, according to data compiled by Guidestar, a group that monitors nonprofits.
YOU go after Steve and Mac...they got nothing on Franklin!!!
David Jeremiah wrote, “Why should we tithe? We should tithe because if we don’t, we are disobeying God. God has given us everything we have, but He wants us to be obedient and give 1/10 of it back to Him. He doesn’t need our money, but He does require our obedience (see Malachi 3:8-10).”
ReplyDeleteGood words from God's man
Why didn't Congress investigate the Graham's when they were looking at TV preachers?
ReplyDeleteBilly Graham does not even work and still gets a salary of over $400,000.
Do you think that the little Grandmother on Social Security giving her widows mite knows that Billy is making that kind of money?
Franklin making over $600,000...he gave up some of his money after it got exposed by the Charlotte Observer.
This is not right, but if you are the Grahams, you can get away with it.
To think that Franklin sees all these people in need and yet still chooses to take a salary of $600,000 is almost a crime.
God help him on judgment day.
"He explains that they're getting their reward in this world."
ReplyDeleteReward for what?
"If they're not forking over 10% of their gross income in an undesignated fashion to BBC those nice cars are stolen property."
If they are under a financial curse and have a "hole in their purse," how are they able to afford a nice car and a nice house?
Didn't Steve Gaines say that you would never be able to spend the money that should have going to BBC?
Never got an answer to this question:
ReplyDeleteAnd if 95% of Christians (according to Barna) don't give 10%, shouldn't they all have unhealthy kids? Why does it only seem to happen to a few?
Thanks again Watchdog - if it were not for your blog, we'd have little information how these greedy preachers are Sunday after Sunday preaching MONEY.
ReplyDeleteIt's sickening to hear messages laying on the guilt, especially when one's heart is heavy worrying how they are going to feed their little ones and pay every day bills.
At one time I respected Steve Gaines, but he's another Mac Brunson, begging for money to support their lavish lifestyle's. No wonder people are running from their churches.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"Billy Graham does not even work and still gets a salary of over $400,000."
ReplyDelete"Do you think that the little Grandmother on Social Security giving her widows mite knows that Billy is making that kind of money?"
You obviously know nothing about Billy Graham and his ministry. He is totally supported by a private benefactor and takes nothing from the ministry.
hopeandfaith,
ReplyDeleteThere are plenty of groupies.
Anon 3:33 p.m.,
It is a conundrum, isn't it?
I have been a Pastor for 40 years and I am so sick of this, and the fact I preached similarily for may years.This is just mind control and it is about fear. I honestly don't have a problem with the Grahams but this imtimidating, threatening preaching is an attempt to scare people into giving to maintain the upkeep, and the salaries and not lose face.
ReplyDeleteNow I know why my washing machine just broke down!
ReplyDeleteWhat about my friends/neighbors/acquaintances that never darken the door of a church and don't give a dime to charity? There washing machine is working just fine!
James Brown/Seneca....Homer Lindsay Jr never preahed this hogwash. You don't know what you're talking about.
ReplyDeleteAnnon 4:09 said You obviously know nothing about Billy Graham and his ministry. He is totally supported by a private benefactor and takes nothing from the ministry.
ReplyDeletehttp://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/06/11/profiting-from-the-priesthood-white-young-brunsongraham-and-on-and-on/
The Wartburg Watch reported that Billy Graham makes over $700,000 plus retirement.
Hey Ann. 4:09...is the koolaid tasty?
Homer Lindsay did indeed preach that "hogwash." I remember being quite offended by it. One of the reasons I felt "led" to leave FBC and go elsewhere.
ReplyDelete“David Jeremiah wrote, “Why should we tithe? We should tithe because if we don’t, we are disobeying God. God has given us everything we have, but He wants us to be obedient and give 1/10 of it back to Him. He doesn’t need our money, but He does require our obedience (see Malachi 3:8-10).””
ReplyDelete“NOTE: This article is not intended to be a rebuttal of any other doctrine taught by David Jeremiah and I wish him God's blessings to the extent he preaches the gospel according to God's Word in other areas of doctrine. I simply request dialog on tithing.
David Jeremiah should not teach tithing. He should know that it is a false doctrine because he earned his M. A. at Dallas Theological Seminary. The book, Major Bible Themes, by Dallas founder Lewis Sperry Chafer and John Walvoord, definitely does not teach tithing and it is quoted in great detail in my own book. Succeeding presidents of Dallas Theological Seminary like Charles Swindol also have not taught tithing either.”
Continue here: DAVID JEREMIAH REBUTTAL
David Jeremiah is another one who is wrong, Russell Earl Kelly, PHD is correct. David Jeremiah twists the Scriptures and places Christians under condemnation. He sins by mishandling God's word. A fearful thing. The Church is riddled with Scripture twisters. Sad. Tragic.
Should Christians Tithe?
David Alan Black
I was a member of Pastor Jeremiah's church 'Shadow Mountain'. He does indeed teach the tithe... in fact he teaches it every Sunday in January. It's a loooooong month. In other ways, he was a very good Pastor to me.
ReplyDeleteIt should be noted that Shadow Mountain has withdrawn from the organization for Christian church accountability.
It grieves me to see this, but I can verify that it is true.
And yes, anon, he does know better.
Debate tithing all you will but one thing is for sure, since Calvary the standard of giving is not 10%, it's the cross. No one stands before the cross and debates percentages. Jesus gave all of His life on the cross for our salvation and His demand for us, as His followers is our ALL. He clearly says that if we are going to follow Him we must daily deny ourselves, take up our cross and if we don't, then we can't be His disciples (Jesus' words not mine). Rather than debate how much or what happens if we don't, let's focus on what it means personally to heed the call of Christ to follow. It's probably not as much fun as cutting someone else down, but it's sure to consume ALL of our life.
ReplyDelete11:24, no thanks, I prefer to focus on the phony, false teaching of prominent pastors who misuse the bible to place Christians under the Old Testament laws.
ReplyDeleteWatchdog, this kinda preaching is what I call the preacher "BS" message: (preacher Bible Scourging message.) Pastor Gaines Bible Scourged his congregation with 40 lashes save one, and probably didn't break a sweat!
ReplyDeleteI used to fall victim to such preaching, become guilt ridden, and fork over that 10% - (39 lashes later). But thanks be to God, I began searching the scriptures for myself: like those at Berea (in Acts 17:11) only to discover that everything being preached ain't always the New Testament gospel truth - sometimes it's just plain ole pastor "BS!"
By the way...great blog....Grace n Peace- Elder gab
For as much as some Christians profess to be against witchcraft, I can assure you I've been cursed by more Christians than people from any other type of religion or non-religion.
ReplyDeleteThe pastors are the best at it.
This winner wasn't satisfied at cursing entire families, he went after their inanimate objects, too.
If you called someone on the telephone and said these things, you'd be arrested for harassment -- and rightly so.
Caution: Listening to megachurch pastors will poke holes in your head.
Matt 8:3 ... And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. :4 See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.
ReplyDeleteIt is what it is.
Jeremiah is just another TBNer. Recently he and Paul Crouch were on Crouches behind the scenes show together for the whole half hour.Enough said.
ReplyDeleteMy fav OT law is Lev.19:19. You guys wearing cotton/poly blend shirts, or wool blend suits better take heed.
ReplyDeleteMoses commanded
ReplyDeleteAre you pointing to the 10 commandments of god in the old testament?
"Matt 8:3 ... And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. :4 See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."
ReplyDelete"It is what it is."
According to the notes in the John MacArthur Study Bible, "the gift that Moses commanded" was a sacrifice of two birds, one of which was killed and the other set free (Lev. 14:4-7)
Where am I to go? I got away from the prosperity preachers years ago because of this very same thing; God'll getcha for that or this! It's a shame the SBC has gone health/wealth...just how long will it be before we have to use our "faith" to get healed or be rich?
ReplyDeleteSeptember 13, 2011 10:29 AM
Why are you to "go" anywhere? If you are referring to the "ekklesia" then that is simply the assembling of true believers. it is not a formal situation. Chances are you would be more obedient to God by staying out of these temples to man that call themselves a church.
You CAN study on your own. the Holy spirit will teach you if you pray and ask...not doubting. The way it was always meant to be with Christians sharing and questioning each other about what is written and what they teach.
Stop following man and follow Christ.
"Annon 4:09 said You obviously know nothing about Billy Graham and his ministry. He is totally supported by a private benefactor and takes nothing from the ministry."
ReplyDeleteGood one. Nice try. Now, let us focus on Franklin who was taking a huge salary from both BGEA and Samaritan's purse while not working full time for either! Great gig if you can get it. I will say his dad never pulled anything like this!
And the BOARD of both places rubber stamped this. So much for accountability....just get yourself some rubber stamp guys!
Peter and John did not tithe or believe in it. Recall their telling the cripple man "silver and gold I do not have". They went into the temple broke like most of the rest of us. If banks failed to loan we would all be in the poor house. The tithe is NOT in the NT. Its a ruse to keep those that believe they deserve a high income where they want to be RICH.
ReplyDeleteSince we know that most preachers teach the 10% tithe, (even if it is not supported by scripture) what does that say about the 95% of Christians that don't tithe? Does that mean that they have been good Bereans and have searched the scriptures and don't feel bound by the OT, or does it mean they ignore most of what their preacher says?
ReplyDeleteNone of these well-fed, highly paid preachers share anything in common with the Man from Galilee. They do, however, bear a striking resemblance to the principle character of the parable in Luke 12:16-21. I expect their ultimate experience with Jesus will follow that parable as well.
ReplyDeleteI doubt seriously that any blogger on here in broke so why don't you quit your posturing and whining.
ReplyDeleteBTW, if you're so broke, how do you afford a computer and internet access?
I think some preachers, like Gaines and Brunson, would do well to examine what modern day Judaism teaches about tithing. A Jewish rabbi would tell you that the biblical tithes that were designated for the Levites cannot be paid to anyone but the Levites. In their view, it would be a violation of God's direct commands (a sin) to give the Levitical tithes to a non-Levite.
ReplyDeleteSupport of rabbis and synagogues comes from pledges and fund raising, not from tithes.
Modern Judaism commands that Jews are to give at least 10% of their income (after taxes) to charity, to meet biblical commands to care for the poor -- and they are also commanded not to give more than 20%, lest the giver become poor. However, this charitable giving is not considered a biblical tithe; rather, it is based on rabbinical tradition and commands (which are also considered binding on Jews).
So the question for Gaines and Brunson is, if God commanded Jews to give 10% of their increase to Levites (and only to Levites), who are they to change what God has commanded?
Junkster - your questions are WAY to easy!
ReplyDeleteThese preachers believe THEY are the new Levitical priests. Gaines in his sermon from Hagai and also Brunson, interchanges the words "preacher" for "prophet", and they believe the church is now the "storehouse", so yes, they are the new Levitical priests.
So easy.
But it requires gullible people who believe in Aesop's Fables.
I really did not know that Steve Gaines was a Levite. ONLY Levites are allowed to recieve tithes. He is also teaching a form of replacement theology in regards to the Temple.
ReplyDeleteCould it be possible that pastors, such as a Steve Gaines, are more extremely zealous for the Christian "RELIGION," rather than for the grace of God revealed in the Christ?
ReplyDeleteIn Galatians 1:13-14, even the apostle Paul: (before his conversion,) shows how a person can be a staunch advocate of their "RELIGION," even being profitable, and zealous in their "RELlGION," and yet be blind to the truth: persecuting those who have come to genuine faith, not in the Christian "RELIGION" per se, but rather in the Christ who is Lord of their lives, and Lord over all.
Grace n Peace - Elder gab
Before I was giving my tithe:
ReplyDelete•I was living paycheck to paycheck
•I waited until the due date of my bills before I paid them
•Every single month I seemed to incur random expenses that consumed all my extra money and even pushed me more into debt
•Always broke even on my tax return or owed money to the government
•Bank fees: be they credit card over the limit, over-drawn checking account, late payments fees…you name it I paid it
•A guilty conscience
•A heavy heart
Now that I’m tithing, though no increase in salary this has been my experience:
•I’m able to save at least $200 every month
•I pay every bill the day it comes in the mail
•Random expenses have not been a part of my life for the last few months
•I pay every bill the day it comes in the mail
•Random expenses have not been a part of my life for the last few months
•For the first time since we filed taxes Married Filing Jointly, my wife & I are receiving a sizable return of over $1,200
•No more bank fees
•A clear conscience and a happy countenance
•A peace that passes all understanding – Philippians 4:7
I'm seeing more how a Jew might resent that Christianity borrowed their religion and reinterprets all their laws, etc. into new Christian applications. And half the time, I bet a rabbi would see how some of these pastors don't know what they're talking about.
ReplyDeleteIt seems if you want to understand the OT more, you'd go be taught by rabbi's. They've been studying and interpreting this stuff for thousands of years. I think they have a very different view of scripture and how to deal with it, than, say, a fundamentalist Baptist preacher.
Also their way of raising money and having Jews give 10% to the poor after taxes, but not more, less they become poor themselves-it certainly makes more sense to me.
Anon 1:02 am,
ReplyDeleteI think you're exactly right! These preachers are zealous for their own little corner of the Christian world and it's interpretations, rules, priorities, etc. Jesus himself wouldn't fit in there!
"I doubt seriously that any blogger on here in broke so why don't you quit your posturing and whining."
ReplyDeleteThere is no way for you to know the financial condition of anyone who posts here.
"BTW, if you're so broke, how do you afford a computer and internet access?"
There is a way for you to know this answer. It's called a public library.
Anon 8:49 am,
ReplyDeleteAnd this change just happened like magic? There were no other changes-more income, etc.? That would be truly astonishing, and you should proclaim this to the world so everybody can go from the stresses of being broke to all being huncky-dory! Seriously. If it's that easy to change your finances, I want everybody to experience it.
"Before I was giving my tithe:"
ReplyDeleteI was practicing NT Grace giving.
I wasn't giving to get something back from God
I didn't consider Got to be a Holy Bell Hop
I gave because I wanted to - not under compulsion (under the threat of a curse for not giving a certain percentage)
I wasn't Biblically illiterate (trying to live under parts of the OT law - ignoring others)
I didn't pretend to not notice that the OT Israelites gave 25% not 10%
I no longer feel guilty when the Baptist preacher calls me a thief
The Holy Spirit instructs me as to what to give not a man
I am a hilarious giver!
"I'm seeing more how a Jew might resent that Christianity borrowed their religion and reinterprets all their laws, etc. into new Christian applications. And half the time, I bet a rabbi would see how some of these pastors don't know what they're talking about."
ReplyDeleteThis is a very divisive statement. Christians and Jews have a tradition of working together on common issues. Thus the term Judeo-Christian tradition.
"It seems if you want to understand the OT more, you'd go be taught by rabbi's. They've been studying and interpreting this stuff for thousands of years. I think they have a very different view of scripture and how to deal with it, than, say, a fundamentalist Baptist preacher."
ReplyDeleteJews don't believe that Christ was the messiah. That would, of course, cause them to interpret scripture differently than Christians do. You could make the very same statement about how Jews interpret the NT.
"Also their way of raising money and having Jews give 10% to the poor after taxes, but not more, less they become poor themselves-it certainly makes more sense to me."
ReplyDeleteThe problem with 10% is that it is too much for the working poor and too little for the rich. I much prefer the NT grace giving standard.
"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion"
2 Corinthians 9:7
Note; September 15, 2011 8:49 AM
ReplyDeleteAny "good financial advisor" would have given you this same outline to follow - has nothing to do with tithing, just good financial planning which very few follow these days - their desires overpower their needs and therefore big debt accumulates.
Folks, we do not take the money out of God’s pocket. No, we rob Him of the greatest blessing He has. It’s more blessed to give than it is to receive. God desires to give and to bless our lives. Tithing will open up the windows of heaven for us. It is an act of obedience out of love. We are not trying to buy God off. Tithes do not box God into a corner and force Him to bless us. He blesses us because of the attitude of our heart. That is why he tells us to return to God. Returning to God starts in our heart and an action follows — an entry level action of giving seed to God and saying, “Here God, You work with it. I tried. I failed. I can’t work with this seed. I can’t make it grow, but Lord, I’m going to give it to You and let You begin to bless me.”
ReplyDeleteDespite the economy, despite Wall Street, despite First National Bank, despite the world economy, He can bless us because He blesses us not from the world. He blesses us according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. Oh, Hallelujah!
"He blesses us according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. Oh, Hallelujah!"
ReplyDeleteGod does not bless New Covenant Christians trying to return to the law. Read the book of Hebrews.
I am a long-time Southern Baptist Pastor and I have resisted commenting on the tithe on this blog until now. I offer these comments in grace. Pejorative I shall not be: it is food for thought.
ReplyDelete1) The comments offered in the sermon by Steve Gaines on the tithe seem to me to be quite simplistic and juvenile. A PhD can and should better. I am not being hypercritical here; all of us preachers have a bad day.
2) If a refusal to tithe represented a breach of the eighth commandment in the Old Testament (Malachi 3:8), what did Jesus do on the cross that made a breach of the eigtht commandment less egregious in the New Testament?
3) In Hebrews 7:8, there is a reference to the priest who lives. This priest can only refer to Jesus Christ, our great High Priest. The author of Hebrews indicates that a tithe is paid to this priest who lives, namely, Jesus.
4) In Luke 11:42 Jesus references the tithe and the fact that the Pharisees tithed but overlooked the weighty issues of "judgment and the love of God." Jesus had an undeniable opportunity to refute the tithe at this point in his ministry, and he does not. He in fact, does just the opposite: he affirms the tithe, "these ye ought to have done."
5) "Grace giving" is often touted as the "clear" New Testament replacement for the Old Testament principle of the tithe. This view seems to be based on an erronous view of II Corinthians 8 and 9 which represent Paul's admonition to the Corinthians to follow through with their previous commitment to give to the famine stricken Christians in Jerusalem. II Corinthians 8 and 9 have nothing to do with tithing or not tithing.
6) Finally, it has been my observation that "grace giving" is simply an excuse to give less . . . not more.
My intention is to be biblical and present a view of tithing that some want to overlook or ignore.
Respectfully Submitted,
Long-time SBC Pastor
Some have said to me: "I have not paid tithes in years and I am not cursed." Naturally this statement is made to somehow justify their theory that tithing was wrong or they would have experienced some curse. Let me say that the judgments of God may be slow and longsuffering, but do not take this as God forgetting. What greater curse could there be then not to worship God in Spirit and Truth? Many of the wicked prosper and do not give tithes. Does this mean God is blessing the wicked because they do not give? If a person wants to try God out for size, then let them be honest and say to the LORD: "I am not giving tithes now or later no matter what, ...and God, if you want to curse me start right now." I have had no takers on this vow in over 29 years of my Ministry! And yes, I must admit, that after a time of personal friendship with some non-tithe payers I have had to break that fellowship. Can two walk together except they be agreed? Even thus, I cannot walk with a Man in his Ministry if he denies the truth of tithing unto the Lord's redemption Ministry. They who preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel not of their own income or of their own labors. True, Paul did not use this liberty upon "some Gentiles" since they were pagans who knew not the blessing of tithing, but Paul did say he received wages (tithes) of others to do these who lacked revelation service (2Corinthians 11:8). I have been among those who do not believe in tithing. I have NEVER seen them receive an offering for the wages of the Pastor. In fact, the Pastor who believes in free-will offerings only, will forbid anyone to receive an offering for him and call it wages (call it tithes or an offering) . Now I ask, IS THAT NEW TESTAMENT?
ReplyDelete"2) If a refusal to tithe represented a breach of the eighth commandment in the Old Testament (Malachi 3:8), what did Jesus do on the cross that made a breach of the eigtht commandment less egregious in the New Testament?"
ReplyDeleteGood question. Here are some other good questions.
What did Jesus do on the cross to change the number of tithes due from believers from 3 to 1?
What did Jesus do on the cross to change the giving from food (crops and flocks) to money?
What did Jesus do on the cross to change the tithing recipient from Levite priests, the poor and widows, and festivals to a local church?
"3) In Hebrews 7:8, there is a reference to the priest who lives. This priest can only refer to Jesus Christ, our great High Priest. The author of Hebrews indicates that a tithe is paid to this priest who lives, namely, Jesus."
ReplyDeleteWhat did Jesus do on the cross to negate Numbers 18?
It only indicates this if you interpret the passage out of context. This was a one time tithe from the spoils of war (no personal assets were given) that was paid to a man. Surely you can do better than this.
"4) In Luke 11:42 Jesus references the tithe and the fact that the Pharisees tithed but overlooked the weighty issues of "judgment and the love of God." Jesus had an undeniable opportunity to refute the tithe at this point in his ministry, and he does not. He in fact, does just the opposite: he affirms the tithe, "these ye ought to have done."
ReplyDeleteArgument from silence.
Out of context interpretation.
Jesus had the opportunity to refute many sins and chose not to or they were not recorded in the scriptures.
Jesus did not approve of slavery, child abuse, or wife-beating because he did not address those issues in scripture.
Jesus is speaking to hypocritical OT pharisees (living under the law) who should indeed be paying the tithe. Why would he tell them not to pay the tithe when they should be? This makes no sense whatsoever.
If we were to follow your logic, we might ask why Paul when he was instructing Gentiles (not familiar with Jewish tradition) how to give, why he wouldn't just tell them to tithe. Don't you find it odd that no one in the first century church is ever instructed to give 10% when giving is addressed so many times?
In addition, Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for giving 10% and neglecting the weightier matters of the LAW.
I find many people who hold to the OT tithe are guilty of the same.
"5) "Grace giving" is often touted as the "clear" New Testament replacement for the Old Testament principle of the tithe. This view seems to be based on an erronous view of II Corinthians 8 and 9 which represent Paul's admonition to the Corinthians to follow through with their previous commitment to give to the famine stricken Christians in Jerusalem. II Corinthians 8 and 9 have nothing to do with tithing or not tithing."
ReplyDeleteII Corinthians 8/9 is the NT principle for giving (grace giving). Replacing the OT LAW of tithing. It completely contradicts the old giving under compulsion OT tithe. It is the reason that the first century church is never instructed to bring their tithes into the storehouse.
The church understood this clearly for the first 800 years of Christianity. There was no mention of a NT tithe until the 8th century church borrowed the idea from pagan land lease principles to raise money and used the OT for proof texts.
Most people don't even question the doctrine now because it has been a tradition for so long.
And until Baptist preachers will admit that their were 3 tithes in the OT, everything else is moot.
"6) Finally, it has been my observation that "grace giving" is simply an excuse to give less . . . not more."
ReplyDeleteHow did you come to this conclusion?
It has been my observation that the more money that is given, the greater the chance for abuse of funds.
"2) If a refusal to tithe represented a breach of the eighth commandment in the Old Testament (Malachi 3:8), what did Jesus do on the cross that made a breach of the eigtht commandment less egregious in the New Testament?"
ReplyDeleteGood question. Here are some other good questions.
What did Jesus do on the cross to change the number of tithes due from believers from 3 to 1?
What did Jesus do on the cross to change the giving from food (crops and flocks) to money?
What did Jesus do on the cross to change the tithing recipient from Levite priests, the poor and widows, and festivals to a local church?
"My intention is to be biblical and present a view of tithing that some want to overlook or ignore."
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of overlooked and ignored aspects of the tithe, why do Baptist preachers ignore and overlook the 2 other tithes listed in the OT?
The purpose of tithing, found in Deuteronomy 14:22-23 (NLT), is made clear: to “teach you always to fear the Lord your God.” By practicing good tithing habits, scripture tells us we are showing God our desire to put him first place in our lives.
ReplyDeleteIn Deuteronomy, Christians are directed to not only give ten percent of their income, but to give their first and their best. This means Christians should strive to not only pay or take out tithes upon receiving your paycheck, but to always put God above your bills and other responsibilities.
I would venture to say that most of those who condemn and complain on here are not tithers nor do they serve on any committee of importance in their church. Most of it sounds like sour grapes to me. But I do give them credit because they all seem think they are Biblical scholars.
ReplyDelete•Rm 11:16 says: For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy. You can see how gracious GOD is. He does not require us to give Him all our income for Him to make it holy. His principle is that we only need to give Him the 'firstfruit' tithe (the one tenth) of our total income, and He is able to bless the rest of the nine tenths as holy.
ReplyDelete•Hence, by giving Him only one tenth, our total income (the lump) becomes consecrated to Him. And when our income is set apart unto Him - no curse, no devil or his demons can touch it!
•90% of consecrated income far, far exceeds 100% of income that is vulnerable to the curse of the earth and the schemes of the evil one.
•Isn't it wonderful to know that by tithing 1/10 of your income, you are 'securing' all your income from the curse of the fallen world and from the clutches of the evil one?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,801686,00.html
ReplyDeleteTime magazine actually wrote an article on how tithing works!!!
Above is the link to the amazing article....
Praise God!
When Jesus died on the cross, he was fulfilling the eternal plan of God that existed before creation. He was “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev. 13:8b) His death on the cross was God's tithe to us.
ReplyDeleteWhen Jesus died on the cross, he was fulfilling the eternal plan of God that existed before creation. He was “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev. 13:8b) His death on the cross was God's tithe to us.
ReplyDelete"6) Finally, it has been my observation that "grace giving" is simply an excuse to give less . . . not more."
ReplyDeleteAmen. I would agree. It seems to me that those who believe this also believe that because Jesus Christ died on the cross and fulfilled the law, we are no longer required to give according to a set standard. Herein lies the issue of giving/tithing-a standard.
Whether you believe in the tithing doctrine or the giving doctrine, in both you will find a standard of measurement.
Grace giving does not eliminate the standard for how much we are to give.
If grace giving is all about justification to give less, then surely storehose tithing is all about preachers trying to coerce people to give more. It is sad that young people buy the lies. Robert, do you buy Gaines' argument that Christians will suffer and lose the tithe if they don't give it?
ReplyDelete"In Deuteronomy, Christians are directed to not only give ten percent of their income, but to give their first and their best."
ReplyDeleteThere are three tithes commanded in the OT. Why are you ignoring two of them?
"This means Christians should strive to not only pay or take out tithes upon receiving your paycheck, but to always put God above your bills and other responsibilities."
Christians are never instructed to tithe in the NT church. II Corinthians is the NT standard.
"I would venture to say that most of those who condemn and complain on here are not tithers nor do they serve on any committee of importance in their church. Most of it sounds like sour grapes to me. But I do give them credit because they all seem think they are Biblical scholars."
ReplyDeleteWhen the facts (and the Bible) are not on your side, just start with the ad hominem attacks. It works in politics. This is just sad.
"It has been my observation that the more money that is given, the greater the chance for abuse of funds."
ReplyDeleteSounds like those idiots in Washington, except we don't give it as much as they TAKE IT!
Hey bullet point.
ReplyDeleteNice fairy tale.
Too bad it doesn't work out like that in real life.
Some of the vialest sinners are billionaires.
Some of the greatest Christians live in poverty.
I know it goes against the popular health/wealth gospel, but they will get their reward in heaven.
"His death on the cross was God's tithe to us."
ReplyDeleteHow is Christ's death related to a tithe (10%)?
"Amen. I would agree. It seems to me that those who believe this also believe that because Jesus Christ died on the cross and fulfilled the law, we are no longer required to give according to a set standard. Herein lies the issue of giving/tithing-a standard."
ReplyDeleteII Corinthians 9:7 is the NT standard.
3 tithes were the OT standard.
"Grace giving does not eliminate the standard for how much we are to give."
ReplyDeleteThat is exactly what grace giving does. II Corinthians 9:7.
You don't tell me how much to give - the Holy Spirit does.
It is none of your business!
"6) Finally, it has been my observation that "grace giving" is simply an excuse to give less . . . not more."
ReplyDeleteThe facts say otherwise. Baptists have been selling an OT tithe for years and the people just aren't buying it.
Giving has been around 3% over for the past 75 years.
Much like the government, the idea of spending less on huge buildings, campuses and salaries hasn't occured to them.
But you have put your finger right on the problem haven't you?
"6) Finally, it has been my observation that "grace giving" is simply an excuse to give less . . . not more."
ReplyDeleteWell, that's really the entire issue isn't it?
Church leaders have no faith in the Holy Spirit to lead people to give and the mebership to follow through.
John MacArthur says that is precisely the reason that OT tithing is preached in many churches today.
He knows because they have approached him and told him exactly that after he has given a sermon on NT grace giving.
The funny thing is that in churches where grace giving is preached, they don't seem to have nearly the same number of financial crisis situations as the OT tithing pastors do.
From the John MacArthur study Bible:
ReplyDelete"decided" occurs only here in the NT and indicates a premeditated plan of action that is done from the heart voluntarily
"under compulsion" this refers to external pressure and coercion quite possibly accompanied by legalism
believers are not to give based on the demands of others or according to any arbitrary standards or set amounts
Paul highlighted three elements of free will giving:
ReplyDelete1) according to their means - giving is proportionate - God expects them to give based on what they have
2) beyond their means - giving is sacrificial
3) their own accord - giving is voluntary - not out of manipulation or intimidation
Anon 1:31 pm
ReplyDelete"My intention is to be biblical and present a view of tithing that some want to overlook or ignore. Respectfully Submitted,Long-time SBC Pastor"
Dear Long-time SBC Pastor, while I can appreciate your "intention;" I cannot appreciate your cut and paste - blender approach use of Hebrews 7:8, to support NT tithing in any way; it's just not contextually sound, and here's why!
Hebrews 7:8 is not a stand alone verse, but rather, is part of a much larger argument regarding (the fact) that Jesus Christ has a "BETTER" Priesthood than the Aaronic Priests. The context of the argument is not "Tithing" (which is simply a point made in presenting the main argument,) but more specifically the context regards the SUPERIOR- Melchizedekan "Priesthood" of Christ: (Ref. Hebrews 4:14 thru 10:18 with a few digressions along the way).
Also, the points made within the argument in Hebrews 7 only help to prove the SUPERIORITY of Christ's Melchizedekan "Priesthood," and naturally present themselves as such:
Vss.4-10 (tithes and blessing - the Aaronic Priests paid tithes while in the loins of Abraham to Melchizedek - (who was typical of Christ's Priesthood), and Melchizedek blessed Abraham, being the superior, and Abraham the inferior!
Vss.11-20 (concerns a change that has taken place, replacing the Aaronic priesthood).
Vss.21-22 (regard a change in the method of induction, no Aaronic high priest was ever inducted by "oath"... but Christ was - (Ps.110:4).
Vss.23-28 (finally the perpetuity of the Melchizedekan "Priesthood" of Christ is discussed).
Respectfully, Elder gab
Grace & Peace
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"His death on the cross was God's tithe to us."
How is Christ's death related to a tithe (10%)?
September 15, 2011 4:58 PM
I guess Christ only paid for 10% of our salvation!
I see decent arguments for both sides of this issue; not really thinking of the Biblical arguments, but just practically-speaking. Regular tithing could be a very good thing for a Christian to do. And I'm sure there are long-time tithers who tithe whether they particularly like the current pastor or not.
ReplyDeleteMaybe more focus needs to be on what gets done with all the money given-whether from tithing or from what people think they are capable of giving or want to give. It's not like taxes, where you have to pay whether you like the current president or not. You can't control what the government then wastes your money on. But it seems like church expenses are different. What a church spends money on shows the true values of the church. I think that's a good thing to contemplate.
It amazes me how weak the arguments of the NT tithing supporters are.
ReplyDeleteTheir faulty interpretations are exposed every time they discuss the issue on this blog.
Some pastors who have held this belief for decades even changed their position after a lengthy discussion here (Jon L Estes) - even though he wouldn't admit that is what caused the transformation.
Considering this, it is surprising that this is the majority opinion within the SBC.
There are only 2 explanations: ignorance and lack of faith.
"I see decent arguments for both sides of this issue"
ReplyDeleteJust curious Sharon, what do you think of the pastors like Brunson and Gaines that teach that you are driving a stolen car and living in a stolen house and causing the US economy to crash if you don't give 10% of your income to their church in an undesignated fashion?
I ask because it seems that most baptists seem to use manipulation like this to get you to give your money. Of course, the vast majority is going toward salaries and buildings. That was not the case in the 1st century church.
One pastor even asked for members to write their bank account number on a slip of paper he handed out.
The New Testament teaches that we are not to give under compulsion.
What is strange is all of this false practice of the tithe...by the way the tithe is not mentioned by anyone in the NT. However, you will hardly ever hear a pastor speak on reconciliation or attempting to have unity within the congregation. What you do see and WD has seen it firsthand is trespass papers or blackballing of members simply because they ask a simple question...why things are the way they are. Truth will always win out. The organized church is OVER. During the first century they met in homes. That is where the real Christian can read/study and show real concern for another. Dressing up and attending a building service has no affect on most people. The next day they are hard at getting more money so they can show up again next week if they attend every week which most don't. If they all showed up there would not be sufficient seats for them to sit. I say stay home and study yourself and pay your own debts and get out of this system the organized church has manifested in the 20th century.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if people are getting fed up with the way we "do" church. I would rather see where my tithe goes...and not to large, posh buildings....always a building program. You just can't get too big. I am not talking doctrine...I am talking about how we spend our money. I would love to see it spent on people who need it....people in trouble...people who are barely able to put food on the table. I would give up any comfortable seat in any megachurch to see that the gospel is shared and needs are met. How can you tell someone about the Lord when that person has physical needs. You just don't give him some literature to read....and invite him/her to your posh church...you know they will not come. But, meet that person where they are...and help figure out a way to help, and do so. God will certainly honor this as a tithe. We don't even support our missionaries as we should....but, you can bet the pews are well padded and the chandeliers are grand. Church is still the place to hear preaching and Bible Study....but, who are they teaching and preaching to. As Christians, we are to have fellowsihp with other Christians. But, we have a mission...It is not for ourselves alone. There is a lost world out there and they feel unwashed...not able to partake. Megachurches and big pagents and entertainment... No more for me...thanks just the same.
ReplyDeleteBut, we have a mission...It is not for ourselves alone. There is a lost world out there and they feel unwashed...not able to partake. Megachurches and big pagents and entertainment... No more for me...thanks just the same.
ReplyDeleteYou will not find the above in a corporate church, sorry to say.
I remember being really hurt by the constant beatings to give. Constantly hearing:
ReplyDelete"If you don't give your whole tithe, God'll get it out of you some other way," and
"We're not saying God curses you if you don't tithe. You bring it on yourself," and
"If you don't bring your whole tithe into the storehouse, you're stealing from God,"
I remember feeling guilty if I didn't tithe and desperate if I did in more difficult months (because I would then be broke.)
Surely, this isn't what God intended.
"If you don't bring your whole tithe into the storehouse, you're stealing from God,"
ReplyDeleteI've visited a lot of churches in my lifetime. I've never seen one with an actual storehouse. What would be stored there? Wheat, grain, livestock?
I have never quite understood how people give over their money and are not to ask where it is being spent. When the budget is submitted, they group all the people together (salaried), and you do not know how much each "servant" is getting. How in the world can you trust your pastor if he is ok with his salary being hidden from the ones who provide it. People are waking up and questioning some of the mega shepherds. The Lord is our Shepherd. I don't consider any pastor as the "one to follow'.
ReplyDeleteFor anyone still reading
ReplyDeleteas Paul Harvey would say
"The Rest of the Story"
then God must be judging Steve Gaines
Steve's Snotty Nose Sermon when he had Pneumonia
Having to have Knee Surgery and acting crazy.
Along with God's Judgement of Steve Gaines having Myasthenia Gravis Disease
All driving the church's Medical Insurance skyward.