"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Tuesday, January 5, 2010

Circumcision Doesn't Raise Revenue

As we continue our look at tithing, and specifically what the very respected biblical scholar John MacArthur teaches on the subject, we see that there was no 10% tithe in the Old Testament. There was a 23% tithe that included multiple tithes. But some preachers like to hang the 10% around the necks of Christians today as some sort of holy commandment from God that determines one's obedience in giving.

Why do they do this? Some may be sincere in their beliefs, but I believe it is still taught because these pastors know that while it is not completely defensible from scripture, they believe teaching it is necessary to raise required revenue. One could make just as strong an argument for the OT circumcision command to be in effect today, or the Sabbath, than to say 10% is the borderline between obedience and disobedience.

But circumcision and the Sabbath don't raise revenue in the modern day mega church, so mega church pastors leave those OT pre-Mosaic laws alone - although one might be able to think of some creative ways the church could take a cut on revenue from a circumcision ministry (no pun intended). If cutting genitalia would increase revenue at the modern mega church, I truly believe some preachers WOULD teach it from the Old Testament. As Gaines said recently, Jesus came not to do away with the law, but to increase the law (my Bible says Jesus came to fulfill the law)...so let's circumcise, and let's do it all the way.

But the hard-core storehouse tithing preachers don't preach circumcision. Circumcision won't raise any church revenue or build any mega church empires.

To understand MacArthur's view on tithing, you have to understand this: MacArthur does not say that the Old Testament law on tithing doesn't apply to us as Christians under the New Covenant. Rather, he shows from scritpure that there WAS NO 10% tithing requirement on the Jews. In fact, the REQUIRED giving (which was much more than 10%) was a TAXATION to run a theocratic form of government, and thus has no application whatsoever to Christians giving finances to church. Read MacArthur's words:

"Now let me say at this point just by way of a footnote. I know that this is new to some of you who perhaps were raised in a church or been in a church where they hammered on tithing and they said that the way Christians are to give is to give ten percent because that's the way the Jews give. I know that that is something that is taught commonly. That is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible does not teach the Jews gave ten percent. As I pointed out it teaches that they gave about 25 percent. It was not their giving to God, it was their payment to the theocracy, to the government. It had to be brought into the temple treasury and not to bring it was to rob God, according to Malachi 3:8, of His due tithes and offerings. That was taxation. I know that that is perhaps new to some of you but that is clearly what the Scripture teaches. It's what I've taught for many, many, many years, we just haven't been able to cover it recently."

MacArthur points out that the "tithe" was not 10%, but was about 23.3%...the Jews were required to give 10% to the Levitical priests (Lev 27), to support them as they had no way to provide for themselves. They were the leaders of the nation, "God's vice presidents" in the theocracy, as MacArthur says. There was a second tithe, for festivals, found in Deuteronomy. There was also a welfare tithe, which was 10% every three years.

So you, Christian church member attending a church where your preacher is a hard-core storehouse tither sheep beater - you have to deal with this. Why does your preacher beat up the sheep and threaten them with God's judgment and "messed up" finances, accusing the sheep of robbing God if they don't meet the 10% threshold? Why does your pastor continue to paint all those that DO give 10% as "baby" or "ABC" Christians as Steve Gaines did recently? At best a preacher can use the Old Testament to teach a principle that a Christian might want to consider 10% as a starting point of giving...but to actually teach 10% is the rock-solid biblical borderline between obedience and disobedience for followers of Jesus is a false doctrine. Am I being too strong in saying that? I don't think so. But if you think that too harsh, consider that Mac Brunson goes so far as to accuse those who disagree with HIM on the view of storehouse tithing of "doing the work of Satan". Listen to Mac Brunson here.

MacArthur summarizes his views on tithing and the Old Testament like this (taken from sermons hyperlinked at end of this post):

"The required taxation for the theocracy was twenty-three percent, not very far different from the required taxation in Egypt when they were required to give twenty percent. So those who say the Jews gave ten percent are wrong. They did not give ten percent. They gave ten percent, ten percent, and another three and a third percent every year in order to fund the national government. That was required giving. In another words, that was taxation to fund the government. The government was there to lead them to God, to protect them, to provide an army to secure them, to provide resources for them, to create the social character of the nation and keep them as one great people involved in religious ceremonies and to meet the needs of those among them who were destitute."

In the next post, we'll continue to look at what MacArthur says about freewill offerings in the Old Testament, and what Jesus said about giving to the government and generous giving under the New Covenant.

Finally, no doubt storehouse tithers have their rebuttals against what MacArthur teaches on tithing. But here's my point: the hardcore storehouse tithers - I'll use Brunson and Gaines as examples - they will not exegete their views on tithing like MacArthur has. Instead, they stand in their pulpits and refer to previous pastors - they'll put video and audio clips of past pastors who told their people to tithe. They'll say "its what the Bible teaches", and they will push it on their people arrogantly and unlovingly, sometimes even mockingly. They expect their sheep to just believe it because THEY say it is in the Bible. They'll say not to argue with the preacher over tithing, but to "take it up with the book". They'll even make wild claims that God is punishing America with high gas prices and a terrible economy because of Christian disobedience in the matter of "tithing". They'll tell people their finances are a wreck precisely because they do not tithe. They will even say the tithe must be "undesignated" giving to the church.

But they won't exegete it out of scripture.

Perhaps it is because they can't do it.

So I challenge them to do it. Teach storehouse tithing clearly from the book, brother pastors; exegete it out of scripture like you do most other doctrines. We'll give you 10 bonus points if you attempt to address the "incorrect" teaching of MacArthur on tithing in your sermon.

Readers, if they do, we'll give them equal time and put their arguments here for all to see.

To read MacArthur's views on tithing for yourself, here are the links:

A Biblical Model For Giving - Part 1

A Biblical Model For Giving - Part 2

A Biblical Model For Giving - Part 3

A Biblical Model For Giving - Part 4

79 comments:

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"Finally, no doubt storehouse tithers have their rebuttals against what MacArthur teaches on tithing..[WD]"


Dr.Dog I personally believe these men(Mac & Gaines)know exactly what they are saying and doing.
These men have attended seminary and they both have been presented with the arguments for and against storehouse tithing;
they are ignorant to it!

So then;what do we have here you ask?

Base on the fact that the Bible states repetively that "you will know men by their fruit",I have to beleive both these men(Mac & Gaines)are disingenous at best and outright frauds at worse!

This teaching of haraasing and beating the people over the head and attempting to force them to give against their will and conscience and also against Biblical truth is absolutely diabolical,and as Mac stated "doing the work of Satan!!!

Dr.Dog these guys(Mac & Gaines)are far more dangerous to the spiritual well-being of true believers than I think you understand!!!

If they will wilfully lie about tithing;
What else will they twist up too manipulate the people of Christ???

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

I believe the Bible says that a pastor is to be gentle to ALL MEN. II Tim 2:24. Therefore, if the servant of the Lord cannot do this then they are disqualified to serve.

Thy Peace said...

About two years ago, I clearly remember one evening, Pastor Mac Brunson said if some one was teaching anything outside of The Bible, that they are to drag this teacher out of the Church. (My memory is little faulty here. I believer this was when they picked the minister to lead the high school children)

Now can Pastor Mac Brunson do that to himself?

I understand tithing is NOT a primary doctrine. I would be content if they just preached what was in the bible about giving and stated that current tithing was a man made rule.

The crime here is saying God is requiring one to tithe based on man made rules.

A little honesty in preaching on tithing would help the believers to verify the veracity of any preaching to The Word.

Anonymous said...

The majority of attendees do not read or study their bibles and the mega pastors take advantage of this very fact!!!

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"The majority of attendees do not read or study their bibles and the mega pastors take advantage of this very fact!!!"

January 5, 2010 11:32 AM

Not only mega-church pastors Anon;But many medium and small church pastor's also take advantage of the ignorance of the average professing christian!!!

There is an epidemic of wolves in sheep clothing out to hoodwink the parishioner.
It's all about the "MONEY".

Greed for money is the motivating reason for many of these charlatans who enter the ministry;and it should'nt suprise any of us;

Because the Bible has been warning us for some 3500 years both Old and New Test.that these deceivers would not only infiltrate the true body;
But be highly successful in deceiving and leading the people astray!!!
The Bible reveals to anyone willing to study and ask God to open His Word to their hearts;
Their motives,their personal characteristics and their schemes and operations.

The Apostle Paul in 2Cor.11:3,19-20informs for all the see how these wolves turn people into their slaves by subtlely leading their ignorant minds astray!!!

Peter warns in 2Pet.2:1 "That just as there were false prophets(O.T.)among the people,there "SHALL" be false teachers(N.T.)"among you""!!!

Folks "THERE HEREEEEEEEEE" open your eyes.They appear to be sheeeeeeep,but their wolvesssss!!!

Don't ever go by what they look like,go by what they saaaaaay and doooooooo[Matt.7:15;Rev.13:11]!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Tom, There is another side to this storehouse giving issue that these pastors would not touch with a 10 ft pole. And if they are going to transfer the tithe system to the New Covenant, they cannot rightfully ignore it.

You can hardly read the OT without finding an instance of God's anger about the 'way' they tithed.

Making a show of tithing WHILE they were unjust, greedy, ignoring widows and orphans and tithing their worst such as blind and lame animals. All these things made God very angry.

Just for starters, read Isaiah 1-3

Their favorite book, Malachi, on the storehouse subject also contains some pretty strong warnings on this:

“ And you bring the stolen, the lame, and the sick;
Thus you bring an offering!
Should I accept this from your hand?”
Says the LORD.
14 “ But cursed be the deceiver
Who has in his flock a male,
And takes a vow,
But sacrifices to the Lord what is blemished—
For I am a great King,”
Says the LORD of hosts,


“ In what way have we wearied Him?”
In that you say,

“ Everyone who does evil
Is good in the sight of the LORD,
And He delights in them,”
Or, “Where is the God of justice?”


5 And I will come near you for judgment;
I will be a swift witness
Against sorcerers,
Against adulterers,
Against perjurers,
Against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans,


Jesus said, I desire Mercy not sacrifice.

Also see Micah 6:8

Anonymous said...

ANON 4:46PM. GOOD. I would add to your statement that a believer should go to the person he has a dispute with and be forgiven or forgive that person prior to ever putting an offering into the plate. Its unacceptable to give an offering when you still have a dispute with a brother!!!

Anonymous said...

I would like to know when and where Pastor Brunson said that the lack of tithing was America's problem. Please provide a verbatim quotation in complete contextual sentences.


I will wait.

tikatu said...

Interesting that you bring up circumcision. I think that a lot of the pastors forget that we aren't the children of Jacob. We are Gentiles, and what is required of the Gentiles regarding the Jewish laws was all dealt with in Acts 15. Including the tithe.

I heard a pastor start a series of five sermons on tithing last Sunday. My daughter took down the verses he used because she could see that he was taking some of his verses out of context. (Yes, he preached it from "da book" and didn't rely on what some other pastor said)

We didn't go back for the second part of the sermon. It was an acrostic using the word "TITHE".

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I think Bro Rod says it well:

"If they will wilfully lie about tithing; what else will they twist up too manipulate the people of Christ???"

That is a legitimate concern: if they are misusing scripture in the area of the tithe, what other areas might they be misleading the sheep?

------------------

Anon who is waiting, here are your answers:

Where: Jacksonville, FL

When: August 23, 2009

Verbatim Quotation: you'll have to go back to the blog archives in August 2009, as there is an article on that sermon, with a direct quotation. If you want full context, the sermon is available on the FBCJ website.

------------------
Where: Jacksonville, Florida

When: October 12, 2008

Verbatim Quotation: Go to the blog archives in October 2008. There is a blog post there, with audio and video. If you want full context, you can listen to the sermon on the FBCJ website.

Sorry to keep you waiting. :)

Anonymous said...

So teaching on storehouse tithing is wrong, against scripture? It should not matter, if this is wrong, if a pastor does this in a nice manner or mean manner.

If you want to deal with storehouse tithing and the evils of it, then it would seem best if you spoke against it (storehouse tithing) and not just the few men who speak out on it in a manner you don't like.

Hammering Dr. Brunson and a few others on this subject does not speak against storehouse tithing but against the men you choose to point out. Therefore, integrity would either lead you;

1 - speak against storehouse tithing and all who promote or promoted it.

2 - speak against the men you don't like for the reason you don't like them.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

(1)"So teaching on storehouse tithing is wrong, against scripture? It should not matter, if this is wrong, if a pastor does this in a nice manner or mean manner."

January 6, 2010 8:42 AM

Am I understanding you correctly Anon?
Are you saying that it does'nt matter too you whether the pastor is correctly interpreting the context or a concept in the Scriptures?


(2)"If you want to deal with storehouse tithing and the evils of it, then it would seem best if you spoke against it (storehouse tithing)and not just the few men who speak out on it in a manner you don't like.

January 6, 2010 8:42 AM

Many on this site have done just that.Blogging against the "ERROR" of attempting to force tithing on the N.T.Church!


(3)"Hammering Dr. Brunson and a few others on this subject does not speak against storehouse tithing but against the men you choose to point out. Therefore, integrity would either lead you;"

January 6, 2010 8:42 AM

First Anon it is not just a few who teach that the N.T.Church is under tithing it's the majority of preachers!

Secondly it is Mac who berates and threatens the people concerning tithing,even going as far as to say that if one teaches against it "they are doing the work of Satan";And thereby condemning preachers such as Dr.John MacAuthur Jr.who teach against it!!!

Thirdly,Mac is a seminary trained pastor who has heard both side of this argument,and supposedly knows the Scritures;
Yet he has "No" defense or argument for forcing the tithe on the Church other than a childish "take it up with DA BOOK" quote!


(4)" Therefore, integrity would either lead you;

1 - speak against storehouse tithing and all who promote or promoted it.

2 - speak against the men you don't like for the reason you don't like them."

January 6, 2010 8:42 AM

I submit Anon that it is Mac who lacks the integrity to present both sides of the tithing argument and allow the people to chose based on contextual examination of the Scriptures,and to make up in their on hearts and mind whether they should tithe or not!!!

Pastor Pryme said...

January 6, 2010 8:42 AM --

Those are good questions, but consider the fact that this blog-- not even just this post-- is about FBC Jax, not every church and every preacher.

Of course this is not to say that we shouldn't be consistent in speaking against the error of storehouse tithing and a hundred other things. But given the scope and focus of this blog, I think this post is quite in line with that purpose.

Personally, I go everywhere I can speaking out against anything that is against scripture, especially if it does harm to the Body of Christ or to our witness in a lost world. But again, a blog that's all about a particular church and individuals therein should hardly be expected to cover every topic on the widest possible scope.

Just my 2 cents.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Pryme,

Thank you for reminding folks with your comments

"Those are good questions, but consider the fact that this blog-- not even just this post-- is about FBC Jax, not every church and every preacher."

I am a joyful giver and it's a privilege to give - God calls us to be faithful managers of all our resources.

I am no longer a part of FBCJ because I have observed these last couple of years and saw many members living a frugal lifestyle while giving sacrifically to God's work at FBCJ while the Shepherd and wife, came to Jacksonville and settled in for a life of material acquisition with a sense of entitlement to the assets of the tith from the members of FBCJ. I also was one who didn't enjoy being "hammered" un-deservingly from the pulpit Sunday after Sunday.

We should always be thinking like stewards and looking for the best place to invest our tithing in.

Thanks again Pastor - enjoy reading your comments as well as several others who are solid in the word.

Anonymous said...

(1)"So teaching on storehouse tithing is wrong, against scripture? It should not matter, if this is wrong, if a pastor does this in a nice manner or mean manner."

January 6, 2010 8:42 AM

Am I understanding you correctly Anon?
Are you saying that it does'nt matter too you whether the pastor is correctly interpreting the context or a concept in the Scriptures?


The context in my comment is not whether a pastor correctly interprets scripture (which he should) but that if the interpretation is wrong, it is wrong whether or not the pastor speaks the wrong in a nice or mean manner. The focus from the dog concerning storehouse tithing is a constant slap at Dr. Brunson. He needs to say Dr. Lindsey (sr. and jr.) got it wrong also. They may not have hammered the people (a different topic than storehouse tithing) but wrong is wrong.

A simple, the Dr. Lindsey's and Dr. Vine did not have the spiritual insight or spiritual where-with-all to know and teach that storehouse tithing is wrong.

I have no problem with the dog saying storehouse tithing is wrong but he needs to be honest and say all preachers, past and present were wrong and teaching heresy. That is if the dog really believes it is heresy to teach storehouse tithing.

Yet, to do so will put him in a camp he does not want to be in. Standing against the beloved Lindsey's on this subject.

I, again, make it clear... if the dog wants to speak against Mac, do so but make sure you don't bark up only one tree when many pastors believe storehouse tithing to be true. Speak against them all, especially the ones you have heard personally... which I believe the dog has with the Lindsey's and Vines.

Anonymous said...

Feel free to go to www.changeworthmaking.wordpress.com for one pastor's explanation of the principle of tithing.

jh

Pastor Pryme said...

Thanks, anon (January 6, 2010 12:55 PM)... glad to help when I can. :•)

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"Feel free to go to www.changeworthmaking.wordpress.com for one pastor's explanation of the principle of tithing."
jh

January 6, 2010 2:41 PM

Read his explanation JH.;Sorry he isn't saying anything new that we all have not already heard.
His argument is based on what he thinks is right and proper,and not what is correct Biblical exegesis!!!

Anonymous said...

I, again, make it clear... if the dog wants to speak against Mac, do so but make sure you don't bark up only one tree when many pastors believe storehouse tithing to be true. Speak against them all, especially the ones you have heard personally... which I believe the dog has with the Lindsey's and Vines.

January 6, 2010 1:41 PM

Maybe the difference is that they all taught this but not all lived the high life while teaching it.

Anonymous said...

Bro. Pastor/Rod H. The fact is that the "principle" of tithing, and not the "rule" of the tithe is exegetically defendable to those who will receive the evidence. The reason that some cannot see it is the same reason mice don't look for cats. There is not time or space here to do it here, but it is in fact true.

Anonymous said...

Maybe the difference is that they all taught this but not all lived the high life while teaching it.

So it is OK to preach storehouse tithing as long as you don't live the high life? Is it a doctrinal problem or lifestyle problem with preachers you have? Sounds like the latter.

Just say so.

Anonymous said...

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

His argument is based on what he thinks is right and proper,and not what is correct Biblical exegesis!!!

AMEN... Every preacher who presently or historically preaches or teaches storehouse tithing does not handle the word of Cod correctly. If they can't get it right here, then how can we be sure they get it right elsewhere?

Hey, Rod... do you have a web site we can study so we can be sure we get our exegesis right? I am discovering that the few on this blog and a few others out there are the only ones who can interpret scripture rightly. Have you ever thought of translating a bible in your name? It could be a million dollar seller. I'd buy one.

Go Rod, your the man, Lindsey can't interpret the Word... you can.

Anonymous said...

correction. I should have said God correctly, not Cod correctly. My apologies.

Anonymous said...

Why do most people who believe in storehouse tithing refer to it in the singular? There were 3 tithes in the OT. And why is the benchmark 10% and not 23% as taught in the OT? Can someone please explain why we are taught to pay only one of 3 tithes mentioned in the Bible?

Anonymous said...

Right, I was there and he stated an opinion.

Not once did he say that America's economic problems were due to a lack of tithing.

I will continue to wait for you to get your records straight.

If you are going to throw someone under the bus for their choice of words, then you should at least use their words.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - my apologies. I thought you would be able to find the quotes. Its clear from your response that you haven't read or listened to the quotes I referenced.

Here is where he gives his view, his opinion, that our economic mess is an "act of God", and that it is likely to be from the failure of Christians to fork over 10% of their income to their churches.

Date: August 23, 2009:

"Have you ever stopped to think that this whole economic mess in America is not really the cause of Wall Street or the cause of the White House or the cause of Congress, but it might be an act of God on this nation? Would you agree with that, that this very well may be the judgement of God on this nation - the economic difficulty?

Let me give you one that you're not gonna amen:

Have you ever thought that the reason God's put us in an economic difficulty in this nation is because God's people won't prove him with their tithe? Well, more of you amened it than I thought. But I guarantee you somebody's not going to like it. I'm not so sure we're not in the situation we're in because God's people WILL not prove God with the tithe."


So he's "not so sure"...but I am quite certain there is no connection between people in the pew giving or not giving 10% to their church, and the stock market and unemployment rate and other economic indicators. That is looney tunes. It is careless, scare-tactics style preaching...in my opinion, of course.

Junkster said...

Those who are stating that seminary trained preachers should know "both sides" of the arguments for and against storehouse tithing most likely haven't been around seminaries or seminary folks much. I believe that most seminary-trained preachers who teach that Christians are disobedient if they don't give 10% of their income to their local church teach that because it is all they themselves were taught in seminary. Should they know better? Probably, because they should bother to seriously study the matter for themselves -- but not because they have been taught "both sides" in seminary. Most likely they are teaching the only thing they have ever heard.

Also, it is strange when people comment here saying that a requirement of storehouse tithing as a "principle" can be defended from scripture, but they don't have time or space to do so here. That's a lot like saying "Is so, nah nah nah boo boo, so there!"

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Junkster - good points about seminary trained ministers. That is why it was so surprising to me to find Kostenberger at SEBTS authoring a paper with one of his students (Croteau), in which the entire storehouse tithing doctrine is exposed as not being supported in scripture. Kostenberger is no light-weight, he is a very respected NT professor. Croteau's thesis is going to be published this year in book form. I have a few posts coming soon on this. One of the more credible pieces of work that shows this doctrine to be false - regardless of WHO was teaching it in the past.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"Go Rod, your the man, Lindsey can't interpret the Word... you can."

January 6, 2010 4:30 PM

Well Anon I guess John MacAuthur Jr.is some seed picker preacher from California who is just as ignorant about tithing as I am you think???

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"Bro. Pastor/Rod H. The fact is that the "principle" of tithing, and not the "rule" of the tithe is exegetically defendable to those who will receive the evidence. The reason that some cannot see it is the same reason mice don't look for cats. There is not time or space here to do it here, but it is in fact true."

January 6, 2010 4:12 PM

Anon please explain the absence of the other two tithes mentioned in the O.T.that was "REQUIRED" giving;and explain why the preachers don't preach about those???

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"That is why it was so surprising to me to find Kostenberger at SEBTS authoring a paper with one of his students (Croteau), in which the entire storehouse tithing doctrine is exposed as not being supported in scripture. Kostenberger is no light-weight, he is a very respected NT professor."[WD].


My point exactly Dr.Dog and Junkster.
The fact that Prof.Kostenberger is at SEBTS,and hold these views indicates my point given.
They discuss the opposing views to tithing,but willfully chose to teach tithing as the N.T.form of giving!!!

Anonymous said...

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...
"'Go Rod, your the man, Lindsey can't interpret the Word... you can."

January 6, 2010 4:30 PM

Well Anon I guess John MacAuthur Jr.is some seed picker preacher from California who is just as ignorant about tithing as I am you think???""

January 6, 2010 9:28 PM

Brother Rod, I was being serious.

I believe the Lindsey's and Vines were wrong and it needs to be said. these three men, former pastors of FBCJ, did not have the spiritual insight to understand such a simple truth. They were also wrong on their belief in pastoral authority (supremecy) among other skewed teachings. I won't go as far as saying they were heretics but they bordered on this, if not crossed the line.

Nice men who were greatly revered, maybe this was one of the problems.

Anonymous said...

I have read 3 of the 4 articles by McArthur. I'll say this, as far as MacArthur goes, he is a great preacher, and scholar, with the exception of his calvinistic theology . . . and his teaching on tithing.
He is absolutely right about the difference between "required" giving, and "voluntary" giving. However while he is disconnected on some other points, tithing doesn't stand or fall based on the arguments of "required" verses "voluntary."
It's not possible to obey God and not want to. Tithing aside, ALL obedience is to be VOLUNTARY obedience. In essence God's commands are not MERELY to obey, but to WANT to obey. If I do exactly what God has commanded, but I didn't want to do it, I still haven't obeyed him.
All of that being said, that argument alone, (I know he makes others) but that argument alone does nothing to the principle, not the rule, of the tithe.

Anonymous said...

Therefore, integrity would either lead you;

1 - speak against storehouse tithing and all who promote or promoted it.

2 - speak against the men you don't like for the reason you don't like them.

January 6, 2010 8:42 AM
___________________________________

How bout speaking against only those that fit both 1 and 2?

Anonymous said...

"Yet, to do so will put him in a camp he does not want to be in. Standing against the beloved Lindsey's on this subject."
___________________________________

Personally, I never heard Dr. Lindsay tell his congregation "when you become a member of this church, you are OBLIGATED to tithe. You say "I didn't know that", well, you know it now!"

I also never saw him put his wife and son on salary. Or accept a $300,000 land gift, or live on the ocean in Amelia Island an hour from the church, or set up a 501(c)(3) to line his own pockets, or take Danube River cruises and invite the church to go with him, or threaten us to go in debt if we did not "give a million dollars...in two weeks."

Why is this relevant? Because it shows that Dr. Lindsay was all about teaching the people to love Jesus, to be grateful, and to give generously to the work of the Lord. Dr. Lindsay tithed, he believed it was of God and that God uses that to fund the work of the Lord. He also believed the Chest of Joash was used of God to fund the work. He promoted that too. In short, there was never any reason to "stand against the Lindsays" on this. It is hard to stand against a man whose every motive was to walk with Jesus and bring others to his Lord. Shirley was the same way.

My personal opinion is that Dr. Lindsay did in fact believe we are to tithe as an act of obedience, just as he believed we are to be baptised by immersion. Yet he never beat us up if we didn't do one or the other. So he taught with integrity and modeled what he believed.

My personal opinion is that Mac and Gaines and others KNOW this doctrine is not true or right, and so they trot out audio clips of Lindsay, tell us what their fathers' taught them, tell us its "in da book" and try to guilt us into giving more to their insatiable appetites.

No, my beef is not with the Lindsays. And even if it were, they are not here abusing the budget for their own personal enrichment and family branding.

And we all KNOW, under Lindsay, not ONE penny would have ever been paid to one Maurilio Amorim. Ya Hear Me! AMEN!

Anonymous said...

The fact is that the "principle" of tithing, and not the "rule" of the tithe is exegetically defendable to those who will receive the evidence.
__________________________________

The "rule" is what I am concerned with. Not the "principle." These megas are afraid to preach it is a principle for fear that they won't have enough millions in the budget to put the family on staff or to live like kings. They need to tell the truth and trust God.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

To the Anons yesterday and today, you have raised some great points. I will address them in the next post. The question of whether Lindsay's doctrine and teachings on giving are the same as a Brunson or Gaines is one that I've thought long and hard about. I will share my thoughts on this soon.

Short answer: Lindsay's doctrine on stewardship and giving and tithing was NOT the same as what is coming forth from FBC Jax and Bellevue under the current leadership. I will explain more fully later. But thanks for the comments on this.

Anonymous said...

That is why it was so surprising to me to find Kostenberger at SEBTS authoring a paper with one of his students (Croteau), in which the entire storehouse tithing doctrine is exposed as not being supported in scripture.

This is good. But then Kostenberger gets a lot wrong with authentein and does some bizarre hermeneutical and linguistic gymnastics to get his interpretation.


It goes back to the fact that we all must be Bereans and not depend on the scholars who have agenda's when it comes to some doctrines. The Holy Spirit is the best teacher.

Matt

Lydia said...

Tom, The Rabbi's used to make a good side income off circumcision. Now it is covered on your health plan. :o)

Anonymous said...

Not all preachers who preach on giving preach a "tithe." Pastors like Johnny Hunt actually affirm what Macarthur teaches. I'm sure that Dr. Brunson would as well. Looks like a straw man argument to me.

Anonymous said...

Not all preachers who preach on giving preach a "tithe." Pastors like Johnny Hunt actually affirm what Macarthur teaches. I'm sure that Dr. Brunson would as well. Looks like a straw man argument to me.

January 7, 2010 4:18 PM

Your comment is a bit confusing. Mac would teach as Johnny Hunt does.... except for.....what?????

Looks like you are the one weaving strawmen.

Anonymous said...

Not all preachers who preach on giving preach a "tithe." Pastors like Johnny Hunt actually affirm what Macarthur teaches. I'm sure that Dr. Brunson would as well. Looks like a straw man argument to me.

January 7, 2010 4:18 PM

Your comment is a bit confusing. Mac would teach as Johnny Hunt does.... except for.....what?????

Looks like you are the one weaving strawmen.

Anonymous said...

Not all preachers who preach on giving preach a "tithe." Pastors like Johnny Hunt actually affirm what Macarthur teaches. I'm sure that Dr. Brunson would as well. Looks like a straw man argument to me.

January 7, 2010 4:18 PM
___________________________________

Are you even listening to Mac's sermons or reading the transcripts? His views and McArthur's views are irreconciable on tithing.

Anonymous said...

" Pastors like Johnny Hunt actually affirm what Macarthur teaches."

Are you sure?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPKfsrE7qgE

Anonymous said...

HG Lindsey's book Spiritual Helps for the New Member he states...

When we tithe, it is evidence that we are obeying God. It shows that we have faith to believe that God will meet our needs when we obey Him. It also shows our love for the Lord and our surrender to Him.

He also lists six excuses people give to not tithe.

1 - Why give my money away? (Hag 2:8, 1 Corinthians 6:19, Psalm 2:1, Psalm 50:10)
2 - I am in debt.
3 - I can not afford to tithe.
4 - Too hard on the poor. (Tithing has nothing to do with poverty or riches but with the relation of man to God. It is not little money but little love that keeps us from tithing)
5 - Tithing is legalism.
6 - Later I will tithe.


My kind of guy.

Anonymous said...

It always surprises me when pastors who make their living from offerings DO NOT TEACH TITHING. Does not matter if they were paid little or a lot. The institution we developed (that we call the church) lends itself to preaching a tithe system of percentage. Folks give their 10%, get a tax write off and think they have done a godly duty. It has works written all over it.

But held up to the actual teaching of the Word and what is modeled in the Word of the NT Body, it just does not make sense.

But historically, the church turned into the government so tithe is one and the same as a tax. (As of 15 years ago, I know that German Lutherans gave their tithe to the government which in turn gave a portion to the church). It made sense for both Catholics and Reformers who were state/church to teach tithing even though it is not in the New Covenant. It was simply a way to control folks.

Why depend on the Holy Spirit to guide your giving when you just do the 10%?

Fast forward to the Colonies where the Puritans who came here for both religious freedom and to make money, taught tithing because their communities were like mini church/states.

Where do we find the Body of Christ in the New Covenant being taught to give 10% to an institution? There were offerings given to help brothers and sisters in need. Whether that need was personal or for spreading the Gospel.

A friend of mine is a bivocational pastor. He is currently teaching in a small rural church. He told them recently that he would rather see them give to those in need this winter than to the SBC or even the church building. Since he is not banking on a salary from these folks, he can preach truth. And brothers and sisters will take care of one another. As it should be.

Lindsay might have been a great guy. But to equate "tithing" 10% to love, obedience and Faith in God is completely ignoring the OT tithing standards and turning it into a work of sanctification.

Wonder why he did not teach 27% which is closer to the OT standard for tithing?

Matt

Anonymous said...

Jan 7: 1:52 PM: Perfect assessment of Dr. Lindsay and Shirley. These people were sold out to Jesus. Their life and ministry was all about getting people saved and growing them in Grace and knowledge of the Lord. There was no two sides or hidden agendas about the Lindsays. Both Dr. Lindsays preached storehouse tithing, but they really believed it themselves. They did not preach it in order to build personal wealth or for any other reason than believing it. I have come to my own conclusion that tithing is an OT doctrine. I often wonder if this debate and information was around when they were still preaching, if they would have seen this as OT doctrine also. I do know that they would have done the "right thing", as this was their honest and excellent character. Keep in mind, the SBC was very rigid in it's teaching during their days in seminary. Having known them well, I can tell you they were men committed to the Lord and to the people they pastored. They preached the word without apology. I am glad I was around then.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Lindsay was very careful about money. We went around the different buildings turning off lights that had been left on in the classrooms, etc. All expenditures were carefully reviewed and "prayed" over. He would never have wasted 5 cents on any publicity firm etc. When planning any enlargement of property or renovations, he always presented it to the people and asked them to pray first. Then he waited until the money was in the bank. He NEVER harassed the people rarely mentioned money except during Chest of Joash once yearly. He always said God would give the increase. If God wanted something done then He would move on the hearts of the people. He never badgered anyone. It was always SOULS first. The rest would come along as God willed.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Lindsay was very careful about money. We went around the different buildings turning off lights that had been left on in the classrooms, etc. All expenditures were carefully reviewed and "prayed" over. He would never have wasted 5 cents on any publicity firm etc. When planning any enlargement of property or renovations, he always presented it to the people and asked them to pray first. Then he waited until the money was in the bank. He NEVER harassed the people rarely mentioned money except during Chest of Joash once yearly. He always said God would give the increase. If God wanted something done then He would move on the hearts of the people. He never badgered anyone. It was always SOULS first. The rest would come along as God willed.

This is nice and good but his teaching, at any time on storehouse tithing was wrong.

It seems you are painting these men with high human integrity but who were careless with the word of God. I wish some of the Lindsey supporters would simply say that the Lindsey's, at least on this subject, had no guidance of the Holy Spirit to the truth of God.

Both Dr. Lindsays preached storehouse tithing, but they really believed it themselves.

They believed wrong and practiced wrong.

They did not preach it in order to build personal wealth or for any other reason than believing it.

This does not matter because it is a whole different issue. If storehouse tithing is wrong, then they preached and believed wrong.

I have come to my own conclusion that tithing is an OT doctrine. I often wonder if this debate and information was around when they were still preaching, if they would have seen this as OT doctrine also.

I did not know the Holy Spirit needed this debate to show His preachers truth. If storehouse tithing is a false doctrine, where was the Holy Spirit during this time to convict His preachers of such wrong? You may be right though, the Lindsey's needed a debate because possibly they were not hearing or seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance for their sermons.

I do know that they would have done the "right thing", as this was their honest and excellent character.

What about the character of the Holy Spirit? Where was He to show these mere men what the truth was?

I admire your love and revering of the Lindsey's but you seem to be removing the work of the Holy spirit in their lives to lead such a large group of people in truth.

Pastor Pryme said...

Anon January 8, 2010 8:05 AM, excellent points.

Arguments like "a product of his time" and "if only he had known" seem to ignore the fact that even the apostle Paul could have used such excuses, but he didn't. He was a Pharisee, and a very zealous one. Yet the change in him was profound, and he never lapsed back into his old ways in his teachings. He, though in a culture of misogyny, racial and social privilege, execution for wrong teachings, and many other evils such as slavery, rose above it all on the basis of the Holy Spirit and his walk with Jesus.

For anyone to claim to be a teacher of the NT epistles and use (or have used for them) any excuses is, as anon pointed out, a denial of the Spirit, as well as ignorance of the teachings of the apostles. Sincerity is no substitute for accuracy. We can cite the sincerity and lack of knowledge of new or immature believers, but NEVER of teachers and preachers. Never.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

There is a difference between what we KNOW as Christians, and what we BELIEVE.

What I know is much more limited, than what I believe.

Wade Burleson wrote a brief article on his blog last July that I think is worth reading when considering this tithing issue:

I Believe is Not the Same as I Know

Maybe, maybe....God demands that a Christian is to give 10% as a minimum to his local church. Maybe God views a local group of Christian believers the same as he does the OT "storehouse". I don't see how it can be so, as one reads scripture. I do see that the NT commands us to be generous, loving, sacrificial givers, and I know Christ has commanded us to meet the needs of the poor and widows and such, but no where do I see in scripture that the borderline between obedience and disobedience is 10% given to a local church.

So for a preacher to preach that, and push that, as something he KNOWS...Steve Gaines preached a few Sunday nights ago that Christians are obligated to give "10%, undesignated, no exceptions." He taught it as gospel, no questions, its the absolute truth, he knows it and you better agree with him. Maybe that is HIS conviction for himself, and maybe that is his conviction that he thinks others should take on for themselves, but he ignores the role of the Holy Spirit when he says such things.

For example: when I became a Christian, early on I took on a conviction that it was best for me to abstain from alcohol. I've done my best to hold true to that conviction. I could and do defend my conviction based on certain scriptures. But I recognize it is a conviction, and not a commandment. I know plenty of Christians that don't abstain, and that's OK. They don't share my conviction in that area. But for me to teach it as: "100% abstaining from alcohol, all the way, never, no exceptions" - or "When you join this church, you're expected to abstain from alcohol. You didnt' know it? You know it now!". That is ridiculous. I have told others my conviction and why I hold it; have told my kids its a great conviction to have and will serve them well; but I've never, ever said "God demands that you never drink alcohol", because he doesn't say it in the Bible, and to convince my kids of that might cause them to wrongly judge others who don't share the conviction! I believe a person's giving is a matter of conviction by the Holy Spirit. If your conviction is that 10% is the number you need to give, AND if your conviction is you need to give that all to your church, then do it. But if my conviction is something else in that matter, I give 3% to my church and 2% to other organizations, please don't beat me up from the pulpit and coerce me to share your conviction by threatening me with God's judgment, or infer that I will be harmed by God, or that I'm helping to wreck the American economy.

What say you?

Anonymous said...

The question has been asked several times on this thread why pastors who promote storehouse tithing don't ask for 23% of income (like they did in the OT) instead of just 10%. I wonder why those who left comments supporting "the tithe" haven't answered that question yet? I'll keep waiting.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon: my guess is that they know several facts:

- less than 20% of church members give 10%

- on average, church members give only 2 to 3 % of their income to charitiable causes.

So church members aren't anywhere close to 10% as it is, and to be SUPER-BIBLICAL and ask for 23.33% as was prescribed in the OT, would just make people mad. So they choose the 10% number.

And, its just easy math. Move the decimal over, and you have the amount you should give! How easy is that!

Anonymous said...

Anon.6:05 AM and Pastor Pryme:

8:05 AM.... That would be LINDSAY with an A. I can tell you didn't know him. Let me say this there is a difference in preaching a doctrine whether it be right or wrong because one truly believes it, and preaching a doctrine knowlingly incorrect because one might PROSPER from it. Deliberatly misquoting the Bible or leading others to an incorrect conclusion is serious indeed. Now from your self-righteous comments I can tell YOU never have made an incorrect judgement about anything...right?

A Godly man making a mistake be- cause he was taught incorrectly and a man deliberatly using Gods word and the name of Jesus to make money or push his agenda, is quite different. The Lindsays did not KNOW they were incorrect in preaching storehouse tithing. As I stated if they were around to see what is happening in churches today, they might weigh things differently. A mistake out of ignorance is one thing, a deliberate incorrect use of the bible is another. Believe me no one would be as horrified to preach incorrect doctrine or even to "hear" it than the LindsAys.

Pastor Pryme said...

ow from your self-righteous comments I can tell YOU never have made an incorrect judgement about anything...right?

That's a self-righteous statement in itself, eh anonymous one? ;-)

The point is that anyone who purports to teach scripture yet fails to grasp what Jesus came to do beyond salvation should step down and learn. If "rightly dividing" the Word only means being sincere, then anyone can teach.

Tithing is not only conspicuous by its absence in the NT, it is a legalistic "compulsion" teaching that flies in the face of "neither here nor in Jerusalem"; that is, Christianity is NOT a religion but a life, and all our motivation must come from pleasing our Savior.

This is so basic that I cannot fathom anyone teaching scripture while harboring a view that even you admit is faulty. So my question for you is, are there ANY standards you would recognize for teachers of scripture beyond sincerity?

Anonymous said...

"As I stated if they were around to see what is happening in churches today, they might weigh things differently. A mistake out of ignorance is one thing, a deliberate incorrect use of the bible is another."

I agree with you here. And the book of 1 Timothy is about those who are deceived out of ignorance. Paul claims he was, too, deceived out of ignorance. He advises us to be gentle with them but to correct them.

Yet Paul is very hard on those who deceive when they know the truth. He names names in those cases.

I think part of the problem with many pastors is their view of the covenants. They think in terms of Dispensations OR like the CT folks they carry over which laws that fit the needs of the institution. Tithing is institutional if you think about it. It was instituted for a Theocracy for the government of said Theocracy.

This is not to say all Dipsys believe in storehouse tithing. Many don't. But many do. However, I have yet to meet or read a CT person who does not believe in the 'tithe'. (What is interesting is many Dipsys are not as authoritarian as the CT folks. You won't hear about Ecclesiastical courts from Dipsys.)

Look at all the ignorance that was perpetuated with a lack of understanding the Word: Christians owning slaves, Theologians such as Dabney preaching and writing on slavery as a God ordained institution, infant baptism, transubstantiation (the Reformers were not even in agreement with this one), sacraments as in the Lords Supper, the gender roles in Christendom, etc.

The list is long. The trick is not to be offended when someone you revered was teaching a wrong doctrine. This is why we should not put humans on pedestals. We only become disappointed. But Jesus Christ will never disappoint us.

Always study on your own even if you revere and trust the preacher. Nice guys get stuff wrong all the time. Depend on the Holy Spirit for truth of the Word.

Matt

Anonymous said...

Anon, I want to make it clear that I do not know if Lindsay was preaching storehouse tithing out of ignorance or not.

I believed in a 'tithe' until I studied on my own. And I know many pastors who know for a fact there is no tithe in the NT but preach on it anyway because they think if they don't folks will not give to the church budget.

Of course, that is wrong and it means that their folks do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide their giving which suggests an even bigger problem than giving.

In my view, teaching tithing is teaching against the Holy Spirit working in us and guiding our every move down to buying socks.

What is not controlled by the Holy Spirit can be the teaching to tithe to maintain a church building, staff salaries and programs. And pastors know that anything else is a death sentence for their careers and goals of building big churches and programs.

If folks are guided by the Holy Spirit in giving it is more likely they are guided to give directly to those in need and those taking the Gospel to others.

That kind of giving does not build big buildings nor make careers in ministry.

Just so you know, I have some dear friends that still teach the tithe system. I love them and tell them they are wrong.

Matt

Anonymous said...

We can cite the sincerity and lack of knowledge of new or immature believers, but NEVER of teachers and preachers. Never.

Which leaves a problem with the Lindsay's.

If your conviction is that 10% is the number you need to give, AND if your conviction is you need to give that all to your church, then do it. But if my conviction is something else in that matter, I give 3% to my church and 2% to other organizations, please don't beat me up from the pulpit and coerce me to share your conviction by threatening me with God's judgment, or infer that I will be harmed by God, or that I'm helping to wreck the American economy.

What say you?


Does it really matter if you get beat up or sweet talked. To preach storehouse tithing is against scripture. Is that right, Dog?

Lindsay, Vines and all others were wrong. Not led of the Spirit of God to truth on this subject. Can we ask, why?

That would be LINDSAY with an A. I can tell you didn't know him. Let me say this there is a difference in preaching a doctrine whether it be right or wrong because one truly believes it, and preaching a doctrine knowlingly incorrect because one might PROSPER from it.

Misspelling a name or knowing a person does not change the fact that storehouse tithing is wrong and to reach it in any manner, for personal gain or out of ignorance still says: Those who do so are not being led by the Spirit of Truth to proclaim Truth.

Brunson being greedy or Lindsay being ignorant are a different topic. The Spirit of Truth is the key factor to what is Truth and for any preacher to get up at any time, no matter how revered and preach an untruth, as truth is not being led of the Spirit. It matters not if the last name is Brunson or Lindsay.

Again, maybe ones love for Lindsay is greater than one's love for the truth. How can anyone on this forum stand up for the wrong of storehouse tithing and try and compromise this truth by vindicating Lindsay.

A Godly man making a mistake be- cause he was taught incorrectly

So you agree that Lindsay followed the teaching of men and not of God. I know you don't believe the Holy Spirit taught Lindsay these things. or, I hope you don't.

Pastor Pryme said...

If folks are guided by the Holy Spirit in giving it is more likely they are guided to give directly to those in need and those taking the Gospel to others.

Matt, that's the key. If people were told about the importance of caring, because Jesus cared so much for us all, they'd give purely out of the love in their hearts. They'd give to the truly needy, and not be fooled by the argument that fewer people would hear the gospel without salaried professionals and entertainment centers. If each believer were impressed with their own responsibility to witness, many more would be saved. And cared for.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Having been at FBCJ under Lindsay and Vines for 15+ years, I believe Lindsay and Vines BOTH taught the tithe as a conviction they had, that God's plan for funding a church was for people to give 10% to the church. As I said, sharing a conviction that you hold so that someone else may be persuaded by the Holy Spirit to take that conviction for themselves, is diffrent than saying "God says you need to give 10% or God will be unhappy and you will be disobedient and not enjoy God's blessing."

I may be wrong on my assessment of Lindsay. But as I look back on my time at FBCJ during those years, it was a strongly held conviction that he taught people. He told them to try it. He didn't tell them that when you join, you're expected to fork over 0.1 times the gross. He didn't imply that our economic prosperity as a country hinged on our tithing. He taught his conviction, showed in the bible from where that conviction came, and some people took that conviction as their own. Others didn't, but still contributed financially as led by the Spirit.

The only thing I can compare it to is his conviction on liquor. He was called a legalist for preaching hard on liquor. But as I understood his teaching, and I believe Vines was clearer on this distinction: the issue of alcohol is a matter of conviction, not law. Big difference. I am convicted that for ME, I should abstain. But I will absolutely not put that yoke around someone else under the guise of "God's word says you must never touch alcohol else you will be sinning". I have taught my kids that it is a great conviction, and they would be wise to take it for their own, and I've lived it out in front of them so they might see the wisdom of it. But I have Christian friends who don't abstain, but drink a bit here and there, and I love them and don't judge them, and don't tell them to stop drinking and to take it up wit da book.

'Cause it ain't in da book. Its a conviction I have.

Pastor Pryme said...

... which is why it's so important for people not to put preachers on a pedestal. A popular and persuasive personality (what's with all those p's??) can say "this is only my personal conviction" but his followers will take it on a par with scripture. And if said preacher does not warn such people against elevating convictions to divine utterances, he is actually teaching his opinion as scripture, however indirectly. I've seen this happen many times. Even when some preachers admit privately that something they had said before was in error, I never heard them tell the people; the error was allowed to stand.

Thy Peace said...

I concur with WD on this post of Wade Burleson, I Believe Is Not the Same Thing as I Know. An excellent post. Very good for mulling over and re-reading.

Anonymous said...

Some of these people really confuse me. Talking about "convictions" verses "commandments." Brothers truth is one size fits all. If it is inherently wrong for anyone to drink alcohol, then it is inherently wrong for everyone to drink alcohol.
You may argue the issues, but never under any circumstances present the thought that right and wrong differ between people.
The same goes for tithing, and anything else.
Truth is, and all else is false.

The fact is that I do not know what I believe, I believe what I know. I know the Bible is the Word of God therefore I believe it. I know that Jesus is the Son of God therefore I believe it. Burleson has it backwards in most contexts.
When I don't know what to believe, I don't.
I know Salvation is through Christ alone, Grace Alone, and Faith Alone. I know that as settled fact. Therefore I believe it. I may not always know the "hows" but I do know the "do's". Vance Havner said, "I don't understand electricity, but I won't stay in the dark till I do."
I don't understand electricity, but I do know that it works, and therefore I beleive in it.
I know what the scriptures say about giving, tithing, etc, and therefore that's what I believe.

Anonymous said...

At the time I became a member of FBCJ I was handed a "New Member" Welcome Packet" that had a list of the churches expectations from me, one being my tithe would go to the church.

I liked Matt's summary as it speaks truth about ones heart when they give.

"If folks are guided by the Holy Spirit in giving it is more likely they are guided to give directly to those in need and those taking the Gospel to others.

That kind of giving does not build big buildings nor make careers in ministry." . . .

WD Said:
"But I have Christian friends who don't abstain, but drink a bit here and there . . .

The very reason I left FBCJ as I witnessed some of their (present) leadership drinking. I judge not members who just sit in church, but I do judge (with a passion) those members who drink and play a role in church leadership. I come from an alcoholic family where the church nor the Word plays into my personal feelings on that subject. There is no such thing as a bit here and there.

Well, that could be another topic we could talk about after we finish up our Bible Study here on Tithing. :>)

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I suppose we could ask the question: if abstaining from alcohol is a conviction that Brunson holds like Lindsay and Vines had, why so much silence on this? And why the hammering on the tithe so much from the pulpit - a stronger case for abstinence could be made from scripture than for a 10% tithe from a Christian.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 3:25 - I don't condone drinking a bit here and there...but the point is, I know plenty of Christian men who don't abstain from alcohol. I'm not defending them or judging them, but pointing out the matter of alcohol consumption is a conviction, not a commandment of God. I can defend my conviction with scripture, but realize scripture absolutely does not clearly say that one must never drink a drop of alcohol. But given the harm it does to our society, and using clear, rational logic, coupled with strong warning in the Bible about dangers of drinking, I take abstinence as my conviction, and it is a very strong one.

Anonymous said...

"If it is inherently wrong for anyone to drink alcohol, then it is inherently wrong for everyone to drink alcohol."

Brother, I think your entire post is confusing. You talk about the basics of the Gospel which are non negotiable in interpretation and then throw in you believe in tithing because scripture teaches it.

Do you realize your above quote contradicts what Paul wrote? One brother thinks it is wrong to eat food sacrificed to idols because he is weak so we abstain from doing so not because it is wrong but because the brother is weak and we love him. (see 1 Corin 8)

Also see Col 2 as to not passing judgement on othersconcerning food, drink, festivals, Sabbath, etc.

Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach. And Jesus turned the water into wine which the host said was the best wine. If it were grape juice, non fermented, how would he know that it was the best for last?

Tom is following his personal convictions. So is the last anon poster who comes from a family of alcoholics. They don't want to cause others to stumble. I would never be one to talk them out of it. But I also know that if they call me a sinner for a glass of wine, they are wrong, too. However, ifthey see me drunk, they should confront me.

So there is your truth you insist is one size fits all on secondary doctrines that are non salvic.

What Paul writes concerning such things disagrees with what you wrote about it being wrong for everyone.

If you want to inist on tithing is for New Covenant, why not show us from NT scriptures for the New Covenant so we can be taught. I am always open to being corrected from the Word. It is the best way to debate these things..scripture in context should teach us.

Matt

Anonymous said...

These storehouse tithing preachers are a little too liberal for my blood. Not one of them teaches that the Christian should be giving 23.3% of their income to the church (undesignated). And that is clearly stated as the standard in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Anything less than 23.3% and you are robbing God!

Anonymous said...

You know a lot of people used to believe the world was flat and that if they went far enough out into the ocean they would fall off the edge. Also, some even believed that the Sun was not the center of the universe. These people were sincere in their beliefs, but they were told by those in authority an untruth which those in authority really believed was the truth.

Even as children we were taught to believe that Santa Claus was going to treat us better if we were nice rather than naughty. Sound familiar anyone? Yet, we believed it, since most parents would rather us be nice rather than naughty and never told us Santa was not real at that time in our life.

Well, people know differently now, and even though those previous people being wrong does not mean they were not following "truth". Truth is in the eye of the beholder especially when it comes to tithing. Some believe in it and others don't. Whatever one says and believes another may not believe. Thats life. That is what is called opinion.

Bible truths are very difficult for some people as they would have to change their belief system if they actually find that the "truth" they thought was "truth" was an untruth. Most people do not want truth, just like Pilate. You start talking about taking some of their money, beer, cigars, cigarettes, or snuff away from them and you will hit a nerve real fast. Pilate had truth standing right there in front of him and ignored it. Some people cannot take truth and because of it want to tear someone else down. It becomes a stumbling block for them and they realize they are condemned in their heart by another persons stand, especially if the other persons views are biblically true and they know it. I have had this experience with preachers.

Therefore, they who do not want truth (sometimes preachers) strike out against these people that hold to correct and stronger bible convictions. They then desire to destroy the others reputation in order for themselves to deal with their own jealousy or ambition. It happens in politics, business, denominations and families every single day and we call it life. The Bible calls it SIN!!!

I say find the truth yourself and do not be misled by anyone including some preacher. Some are in the profession for the almighty dollar, sad to say. Indeed the truth will set you free.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog: Thanks for your assessment of Dr. Lindsay's teaching on the tithe. You and I were there and we knew the heart of the man that preached what he believed as a "conviction". As I stated over many years and much study and soul searching, I came to the conclusion that I believed tithing to be an OT doctrine. But, I did not fault Lindsay or label him as false because he held a conviction, as I held a different one. The answer to ALL spiritual questions is in the WORD. The BIBLE speaks if one listens. So I say do your own study, as the Lord to lead you and bless your efforts to understand His word.

But, to those of you that make judgements on Lindsay did not know the man nor did they understand how much he lived for the Lord. Having known him for many years I never found him, false in his desire to please God, nor false in any way in his own life. He did the best he could to lead the people as he thought God wanted. But he never badgered anyone about the tithe or money, contrary to many of todays preachers. Jesus was always first and foremost in Dr. Lindsays ministry. Though maybe not perfect, I am sure he heard "Well done good and faithful servant. Enter thou into thy rest".

Would that we all came anywhere near this perfection.

Anonymous said...

FBC Jax Watchdog said...
"Here is where he gives his view, his opinion, that our economic mess is an "act of God", and that it is likely to be from the failure of Christians to fork over 10% of their income to their churches."



Video


.

Anonymous said...

Every conviction ultimately comes from "Da book," God's revelation to man in this time. Duh! What's so hard about understanding the theology of "the tithe" in light of "money, action, heart," etc. Much to do about nothing, yet about everything. Go back to the first sentence and remember what damage you do to the Kingdom when you all think you're smarter than each other and you judge each other's motives, "in Christ." Lindsay must be rolling over in his grave and Vines has stayed far, far away.

Anonymous said...

...and Vines has stayed far, far away.
___________________________________
Unfortunately, he hasn't stayed far enough away. He came in and preached a PC sermon and spat at anonynomous letters and high fived millionaire Mac regarding big salaries. He never apologized to the congregation or explained his words and actions to those in attendance.

And, oddly, has not come out with an exegetical defense of tithing despite knowing the gaining momentum in cyberspace. Why? No way he can make the attempt without completing tarnishing his own legacy. He knows its not taught, but man if he says that, he has a problem with Hunt, Gaines and Brunson. That has big ramifications. So, at least he has the integrity, and lacks the arrogance, to try and come out and yell that its in da book. He wisely, and humbly, stays silent.

His PhD and reputation as a biblical scholar can not stand up to debate, questions and discussions by simple lay people on the internet. Tells you which side God is on doesn't on? "These are unlearned men..."

Anonymous said...

The list is long. The trick is not to be offended when someone you revered was teaching a wrong doctrine. This is why we should not put humans on pedestals. We only become disappointed. But Jesus Christ will never disappoint us.

Always study on your own even if you revere and trust the preacher. Nice guys get stuff wrong all the time. Depend on the Holy Spirit for truth of the Word.
___________________________________

Good advice from Matt! I would add that so many people can't hear from God because they think "Well my dad taught me to tithe and he is dead now. Are you calling my dead dad a liar!" Or...my loving grandfather was a Jew, are you telling me he is burning in everlasting hell now?" So they close their mind...and miss God's truth. Many do this with tithing. Yes, Shirley and Homer tithed and taught tithing. Does that mean I am going fork over 10% to Mac and Deb and Maurilio despite what the scripture teaches?

Go ahead and give it, but don't feel like you are self righteous about doing it, give it "cheerfully, not under compulsion."

Men are wrong about things. But when it comes to being exploited, I will double check their teaching. Even the "great" Bob Gray wasn't right about everything. The talented and gifted Daryl Gilyard had a few things wrong too. Trust them until they come after your body or your wallet. Then you better start questioning them.

And then, you can tell their true heart by the way they react to the questions. Nuff said!

Anonymous said...

Matt - again you sum up this whole discussion concisely and easy to understand. Amen and Amen!

"What is not controlled by the Holy Spirit can be the teaching to tithe to maintain a church building, staff salaries and programs. And pastors know that anything else is a death sentence for their careers and goals of building big churches and programs.

If folks are guided by the Holy Spirit in giving it is more likely they are guided to give directly to those in need and those taking the Gospel to others.

That kind of giving does not build big buildings nor make careers in ministry.

Just so you know, I have some dear friends that still teach the tithe system. I love them and tell them they are wrong."

I see this in churches of all sizes.

Anonymous said...

As for Jesus, and as for Lindsay, when I don't understand something they taught, I must look at how they lived and what the motives were. This helps me understand their teachings.

Jesus did NOT suffer and die so that I might be more involved in serving down at the local church. He did not suffer and die so that I might be obedient in giving to the budget of the local church. Anyone who teaches that is "doing the work of satan." Listen closely, I bet a large majority of sermons in your church have the point of getting you to attend more services, give more to the church, and to give church a greater priority in your life. Am I right?

Thank you.

Entertained said...

Good to see that you can separate fact and opinion.

In my opinion, your writings are borne of conceit, adolescence, and bitterness.

Of course, my opinion is not important. Moreover, neither is Pastor Brunson's opinion any more valuable than yours. Therefore, everyone is entitled to express their opinion. An opinion becomes slanderous if expressed as a fact. Furthermore, when a writer is found to weave his opinion into his writings, he loses credibility and becomes the entertainment.

When someone tells you that you are "entertaining," and your name is not Bozo, it is not a compliment.

Think about it.

Anonymous said...

Who knows, maybe John MacArthur is right and the greatest Greek scholars (Google "Famous Rapture Watchers"), who uniformly said that Rev. 3:10 means PRESERVATION THROUGH, were wrong. But John has a conflict. On the one hand, since he knows that all Christian theology and organized churches before 1830 believed the church would be on earth during the tribulation, he would like to be seen as one who stands with the great Reformers. On the other hand, if you have a warehouse of unsold pretrib rapture material, and if you want to have "security" for your retirement years and hope that the big California quake won't louse up your plans, you have a decided conflict of interest - right, John? Maybe the Lord will have to help strip off the layers of his seared conscience which have grown for years in order to please his parents and his supporters - who knows? One thing is for sure: pretrib is truly a house of cards and is so fragile that if a person removes just one card from the TOP of the pile, the whole thing can collapse. Which is why pretrib teachers don't dare to even suggest they could be wrong on even one little subpoint! Don't you feel sorry for the straitjacket they are in? While you're mulling all this over, Google "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" for a rare behind-the-scenes look at the same 179-year-old fantasy.