I wonder what IMB missionaries think when they return stateside and see churches advertising for cruises with their pastor and family, and trips to "Walk Where Jesus Walked".Did you know just how many of these Holy Land trips occur each year?
Just one Holy Land company alone, Discovery Worldwide Ministries, in the past year and a half is arranging for nearly 60 "Walk Where Jesus Walked" Holy Land tours. See some at left, then more below after this post. Most of these pastors you've never heard of.
This just reminds me that sadly, pastors and their marketing consultants view congregations as a "market" to be tapped for selling goods and services. I wrote about it last year here when FBC Jax's marketing consultant wrote about churches being a "goldmine of opportunity" for book publishers.
Why don't these pastors advertise for "Walk Where the Poor Haitians are Walking" to lead people to serve for a week at a children's orphanage in Haiti? I'm sick of hearing pastors bellyaching to their congregations about not being "missional", and not giving enough to Lottie Moon. Maybe if so many pastors would stop viewing themselves as celebrity tour guides, and start actually leading real mission trips people would follow them. But if pastors travel to get down and dirty in an impoverished nation, no one would gather to hear their great sermons. No glory in serving in overseas missions with the poor and dirty, unless maybe the church media folks go with you and film it all.
Maybe Lottie Moon offerings are down and giving overall is down in churches because people are beginning to wise up - they see so many pastors not walking the walk, just talking the talk. How committed is a pastor to missions when they try to entice their congregation to spend thousands on a vacation with them?
These Holy Land trips are big business. The nation of Israel pushes them. They love them so much they flew their Minister of Tourism over to speak to the FBC Jax Pastor's Conference last February to tell pastors of their responsibility to lead groups to walk where Jesus walked. Who thought we would see the day when the pastor of FBC Jax would sell access to his platform to have an Israel government official hawk Holy Land trips to pastors? You can't make this stuff up - it is getting hard to parody these guys anymore.
There is one company, American Israel Travel, that has special "pastor familiarization tours", where pastors and their spouses can purchase a 10-day trip for a discounted rate of about $1400 per head, with the incentive of getting reimbursed if they book a return trip with their congregations. From the AIT website:
This just reminds me that sadly, pastors and their marketing consultants view congregations as a "market" to be tapped for selling goods and services. I wrote about it last year here when FBC Jax's marketing consultant wrote about churches being a "goldmine of opportunity" for book publishers.
Why don't these pastors advertise for "Walk Where the Poor Haitians are Walking" to lead people to serve for a week at a children's orphanage in Haiti? I'm sick of hearing pastors bellyaching to their congregations about not being "missional", and not giving enough to Lottie Moon. Maybe if so many pastors would stop viewing themselves as celebrity tour guides, and start actually leading real mission trips people would follow them. But if pastors travel to get down and dirty in an impoverished nation, no one would gather to hear their great sermons. No glory in serving in overseas missions with the poor and dirty, unless maybe the church media folks go with you and film it all.
Maybe Lottie Moon offerings are down and giving overall is down in churches because people are beginning to wise up - they see so many pastors not walking the walk, just talking the talk. How committed is a pastor to missions when they try to entice their congregation to spend thousands on a vacation with them?
These Holy Land trips are big business. The nation of Israel pushes them. They love them so much they flew their Minister of Tourism over to speak to the FBC Jax Pastor's Conference last February to tell pastors of their responsibility to lead groups to walk where Jesus walked. Who thought we would see the day when the pastor of FBC Jax would sell access to his platform to have an Israel government official hawk Holy Land trips to pastors? You can't make this stuff up - it is getting hard to parody these guys anymore.
There is one company, American Israel Travel, that has special "pastor familiarization tours", where pastors and their spouses can purchase a 10-day trip for a discounted rate of about $1400 per head, with the incentive of getting reimbursed if they book a return trip with their congregations. From the AIT website:
"The purpose of this tour is to properly inform potential group leaders about Israel as a travel destination so they can share their experiences with others and return to the land as group leaders. As an incentive, should you return to Israel within 18 months of this FAM with 20 or more paying passengers, we will return refund the tour cost along with your tour host benefits."
Yep, any pastor can go on a Holy Land familiarization trip with this company and then get reimbursed, PLUS earn "tour host benefits" if they can get a group to come back in the next year. Nice gig. Would love to know what the "tour host benefits" might be.
This company covers all potential Christian markets by hosting: "Footsteps of Moses Tour" (I'm not kidding), "10 Day Catholic Tour", the "10 Day Protestant Tour" and the "10 Day Evangelical Tour", and the "10 Day Emergent Church First Fruits Tither Tour" (ok, I'm kidding on the last one). Or go with Daniel Rona, as he is an American, a Jew, and an Israeli, and a Mormon - he has multiple markets covered.
I thought it almost comical that Mac Brunson was getting after his peeps this past Sunday night about not being excited about missions and "knocking on doors" - and encouraging people to give to Lottie Moon - when his church is advertising on their website a Mediterranean Cruise and tour of Venice for $4000 a head. These guys have no shame, and they think we are idiots and that we don't see their hypocrisy.
But in the interest of fairness, I wanted to give equal time to more pastors for these Holy Land trips. It is not fair that I was giving free advertising to the Brunsons, Gaines, Hunts, Nobles, and Jeffress on their trips, when there are so many struggling pastors who are trying to get in on the Holy Land Trip movement.
And I know there are pastors out there that DO lead their churches on true mission trips to serve the needs of people. But imagine how much more would be done if the effort expended in getting people to visit the Holy Land with "Pastor" was used to get people to travel with "Pastor" to a place truly in need of ministry.
This is big money, and another example of the gold being mined in "them thar pews".
This is especially grievous in this economy. It is not the roaring 80's or 90's. Tons of people are out of work and on the brink of disaster and instead of calling for them to help their brothers and sisters in need, they are calling for vacation time that will make them closer to God and give the pastor a free trip.
ReplyDeleteThese pastor charlatans are so out of touch with reality. They need a wake up call. But the only way they will get one is if people wake up and stop giving their hard earned money to the church building. The "church" is your brothers and sisters in need. Not the fat cat posing as a pastor. He is a "hireling". Run.
Anon 1:02 - AMEN !!
ReplyDeleteWD - I can only echo anon's words, and those of our brother......... " Worse and Worse " !!
Brothers and sisters in Christ , take just a minute and imagine what $4000 ( the cost of these trips) could mean to a struggling family out of work and facing foreclosure.
WD - keep the faith! Keep exposing these greedy charlatans !
Best quote of Sunday night at the FBC Jax missions conference: Mac Brunson encouraging people to go out to the mission field (this is a paraphrase): "When I go out to preach in foreign countries I see thousands saved, but when I preach to you you look at me like you don't understand me. The Lord hasn't yet released me to the mission field."
ReplyDeleteSo he was saying how many people get saved when he preaches in the mission field, but the peeps at FBCJ just look at him like hogs looking at a gold watch. Mac WOULD be a missionary, but the Lord hasn't "released him" yet.
So many Doctor degrees. I wonder how many of them are earned.
ReplyDeleteYou sure are possessed with mega-pastors and their trips. First of all, what a person spends on a cruise is none of anyone's business and it sure isn't money that would be going to a struggling family.
ReplyDeleteMac will never be "released" to the mission field because he's so caught up in himself and his fortune but its time to move on to something besides what you can't stand in a mega-pastor.
"Brothers and sisters in Christ , take just a minute and imagine what $4000 ( the cost of these trips) could mean to a struggling family out of work and facing foreclosure."
ReplyDeleteSheri I can understand that thought process but that is not real life to expect others to take their hard earned money and try to do a temporary "bailout" on someones mortgage. It has not worked federally and will not work privately.
And if I wanted to waste $4000 of my resources to go on a trip whode business is it anyway. If someone can afford it and want to go so be it. As for me, I do n ot see the need for me and my spouse to go and probaly never will.
The mistake everyone makes is that it is easy to make those type of statements but it is another thing to actually put your money where your mouth is. If you are 90 days behind on your mortgage and unemployed there is not enough money in any church to save someones mortgage.
I can empathize with losing a job and even possibly losing you house but the reality is the economy and how the feds have totally messed it up. I own my own company and just like all of my friends who also own their own companies we are not going to hire anyone until the feds get out of the way.
I counsel people two to three times a week on their financial situation and how to deal with different things in that regards, but at the end of the day most just need a good paying job and even with advanced degrees they are not out there.
You and others keep sounding like the Occupy Wall Street crowd and that if others do not cough up any of what they have earned they are charlatans. That is very narrow minded. I can tell you that my church anyone who asks for help they usually get it. But if someone is asking for help with their mortgage and it is obvious that they are going to lose the home anyway that is throwing good money after bad.
Re: Sheri (3:48 P.M.)
ReplyDeleteWhat can $4000 do? A lot. For example, the City Rescue Mission can use $4000 to help feed and care for about 2000 homeless people. (you might check my math on that)
200 Project night night packagesk
2350 space blankets
500 "Guardian" wool blankets
For what it's worth, several weeks ago our pastor passed the offering plate full of envelopes. Each family was to take one envelope, but not open it until he tells us to during the message. Well, in each envelope were various amounts of money. Some got $2, others got $5, some got $10. The challenge was to see what we could do with that money to increase the kingdom. Since that time he has shared story after story of how people are using those small resources to help someone in need, to share the gospel, and act in faith. Take it for what it's worth, our church is in a financial abundance and we (as a church) cannot give it away fast enough. Oddly, we are not badgered about giving at all. Big difference there in giving freely versus giving as a requirement.
"Dr" Josh McDowell?
ReplyDeleteSeriously...the fabrication going on in the SBC ought to be driving people away by the thousands.
Please.
Sheri I can understand that thought process but that is not real life to expect others to take their hard earned money and try to do a temporary "bailout" on someones mortgage. It has not worked federally and will not work privately.
ReplyDeleteAnd if I wanted to waste $4000 of my resources to go on a trip whode business is it anyway. If someone can afford it and want to go so be it. As for me, I do n ot see the need for me and my spouse to go and probaly never will.
The mistake everyone makes is that it is easy to make those type of statements but it is another thing to actually put your money where your mouth is. If you are 90 days behind on your mortgage and unemployed there is not enough money in any church to save someones mortgage.
I can empathize with losing a job and even possibly losing you house but the reality is the economy and how the feds have totally messed it up. I own my own company and just like all of my friends who also own their own companies we are not going to hire anyone until the feds get out of the way.
I counsel people two to three times a week on their financial situation and how to deal with different things in that regards, but at the end of the day most just need a good paying job and even with advanced degrees they are not out there.
You and others keep sounding like the Occupy Wall Street crowd and that if others do not cough up any of what they have earned they are charlatans. That is very narrow minded. I can tell you that my church anyone who asks for help they usually get it. But if someone is asking for help with their mortgage and it is obvious that they are going to lose the home anyway that is throwing good money after bad.
October 24, 2011 6:02 PM
And here is your "Body of Christ". I was just thinking that Paul did not give the same lecture to the church at Corinth when he took up a collection for the suffering church in Jerusalem. He did not say, they will just need more. You can't really help them.
Please God that I do not go to church with someone like this anon.
It is called "Christian Darwinianism". The survival of the fittist.
To be honest, it's probably best that these sorts of men NOT lead a mission trip. What a burden and drag they would be on the local m on the field. Missions is where spiritual battle takes place and I don't many of these sorts of 'pastors' would be up to that.
ReplyDeletePlease, let them go on their cruise.
You guys need to ease up on the megas. Its not easy living on over $200,000 a year (minimum) and having to preach about 40 times a year and go to all those parties and benefits. You can be sure they don't waste time visiting church members or letting them actually come to their office. It ain't ever gonna happen.
ReplyDeleteThey deserve our sympathy for their wretched conditions in life.
Would love to know what the "tour host benefits" might be.
ReplyDeleteThis should give you some idea.
"Please God that I do not go to church with someone like this anon.
ReplyDeleteIt is called "Christian Darwinianism". The survival of the fittist."
WRONG ANON. IT IS YOU NO ONE SHOULD WANT TO GO TO YOUR CHURCH.
For the record, our church has over six figures in money for those in our fellowship that seek help and we still can't give it all away.
Second, because I earn a decent living and live well below my means many of my friends who are unemployed benefit from the Lord's blessings on my business.
I dare say that is not true from your tone. Get over it.
I bet you the watchdog has not donated his windfall profit from the citizens of his city to help the masses who are losing their home or have lost their job.
HMMMMMM?!
from New BBC's letter:
ReplyDelete*...you would receive the cash amount of $4899 per every 5 additional paying passengers*
So the host receives almost $1,000 for *every* person they take? Or (in other words) of the $4,000 each person pays, $980 goes in the pocket of the host?
So the host receives almost $1,000 for *every* person they take? Or (in other words) of the $4,000 each person pays, $980 goes in the pocket of the host?
ReplyDeleteYou got it. In cash and/or free trips for the host's friends and family.
There are different packages available. Different companies offer a 3-for-1 program, 5-for-1, 10-for-1, etc. The host can select how much he wants to shear the sheep. A really generous host would accept only free fare for himself and his spouse. Somehow I don't think there are a lot of really generous hosts leading these trips. It's a money-making proposition.
I think we all agree that most megas are greedy pigs. Now let's move on to some better posts. It depresses me to read about what they are doing and knowing that nothing is going to change it. They are secure in their positions and actions and that's why they do it.
ReplyDeleteIf you want a real treat in life you should eat supper with three or four of them. They nearly break their necks trying to be in the spotlight of the conversation.
I'm sure the pastors have prayed fervently over their decision to lead these trips and make money off of others and pretend that it's all some spiritual thing. Yes, I'm sure they prayed and also asked themselves, "What Would Jesus Do?"
ReplyDeleteAfter awhile, you just have to sit back and laugh at how people still take them seriously at all when they are up there preaching. Except, to me, it's not funny, because I was one who did take it all very seriously.
For me, anyway, it's pretty simple. If I'm getting all caught up in being God's true child and doing his will, etc.-then I observe preachers driving cadillacs and going on cruises and living in really nice houses, etc. That tells me that THEY do not take the Bible, the Christian life, etc. seriously themselves-it's basically a game-so I then feel like an idiot that I ever got worked up about it to begin with.
I used to look down on those who just go to church week after week, and the sermon never seems to affect them one way or the other. Now I see that they are the healthy, smart ones. They know on some level that it's really just a little country club where you enjoy your friends, coming in from the cold, you all sorta believe part of what's said maybe, kinda (certainly have no desire to start researching it all) and you just go along with your little life. You enjoy the beautiful singing and the beautiful decorations at Christmas. It's warm and cozy. The dramatic Baptist preacher could get up there and stand on his head or do flips, and it wouldn't phase you at all. You've heard it all before, and you know it's not to be taken seriously.
Having said all that, I can appreciate those pastors and church-goers who are sincere and really do try to figure out ways to make the lives of others better somehow.
And it's really funny if Mac or whoever gets up there and guilts you because you don't want to knock on people's doors and have awkward conversations while he's off on a European vacation. It's so very ridiculous. "Hi, we're from First Baptist. Our pastor's on a cruise right now, but we'd like to save you from hell." Absurd in the extreme.
WRONG ANON. IT IS YOU NO ONE SHOULD WANT TO GO TO YOUR CHURCH.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, our church has over six figures in money for those in our fellowship that seek help and we still can't give it all away.
Second, because I earn a decent living and live well below my means many of my friends who are unemployed benefit from the Lord's blessings on my business.
I dare say that is not true from your tone. Get over it.
I bet you the watchdog has not donated his windfall profit from the citizens of his city to help the masses who are losing their home or have lost their job.
HMMMMMM?!
October 24, 2011 10:49 PM
I noticed you ignored my point about Paul taking a collection for the Jerusalem church. I wonder if they were living above their means as you think anyone suffering in this economy must have been doing.
The local mega here also has a benevolance fund. By the time the poor single mom fills out all the paperwork, proves she is not at fault for the divorce, etc, it is months before she sees any help.
I have found that many professing Christians are some of the cruelest people out there. Selfish and greedy and self righteous. A down and out person has a better chance with the pagans for compassion.
I notice Jesus did not vet people before he healed them or fed them. Good thing. Most would not have passed your qualifications.
Good luck with that. (Matt 7)
I bet you the watchdog has not donated his windfall profit from the citizens of his city to help the masses who are losing their home or have lost their job.
ReplyDeleteHMMMMMM?!
October 24, 2011 10:49 PM
My guess is that the lawyers got it.
"I think we all agree that most megas are greedy pigs. Now let's move on to some better posts. It depresses me to read about what they are doing and knowing that nothing is going to change it. They are secure in their positions and actions and that's why they do it.
ReplyDelete"
I will never move on until the last person is out. I want people to be saved. These systems have NOTHING to do with Christ. They exist to maintain themselves and their social Christianity and they love to follow man. They make merchandise of the Gospel and their leaders are hirlings. People in mega's love their buildings and programs and really believe they are doing 'great things' for
God. But the "world" knows better. They are nothing but a voting block and a way for a few to make a huge living off the Gospel.
I long for people to study on their own without the mega pastors filter on the Word. I long for them to know the REAL Christ. If they did, they would RUN from these temples of entertainment and selfishness.
"then I observe preachers driving cadillacs and going on cruises and living in really nice houses, etc. That tells me that THEY do not take the Bible, the Christian life, etc. seriously themselves-it's basically a game-so I then feel like an idiot that I ever got worked up about it to begin with.
ReplyDelete"
Sharon, the mega church pastors I know do not do such public ostentation. They drive toyota's or mini vans. They live in above middle class housing (usually with no mortgage). Yet they are very well off. But take pains not to show it in your face.
Because they are mega church pastors and very insulated and isolated, they enjoy certain things that few of the pew sitters know about. Exotic vacations (they need rest, you know), etc.
Let us just say that most pew sitters buy it and think they don't make that much when they do. They buy the pretense. But it also helps that many mega churches are planted in higher income areas or market themselves to attract higher income earners as pew sitters. Then the wealthier people look at the toyota and say, look at how humble he is.
"I notice Jesus did not vet people before he healed them or fed them. Good thing. Most would not have passed your qualifications."
ReplyDeleteAmen. We are not called to worry with all the "what if" and "maybe" and "could be" stuff. We're called to help and to give.
We definitely need to be good stewards, but at some point, stewardship and helping others with no guarantee on a "return" in that investment, have to part company.
Cheerful Giver said...
ReplyDelete"...because I earn a decent living and live well below my means many of my friends who are unemployed benefit from the Lord's blessings on my business."
Smells like a MLM ie "My Friends", "My Business".
They just love to ensnare some unemployed into their web.
The church, a unending supply of guinea pigs.
"Smells like a MLM ie "My Friends", "My Business".
ReplyDeleteThey just love to ensnare some unemployed into their web.
The church, a unending supply of guinea pigs"
NOT!!! Don't like MLM, but I don't condemn those who do!
I have been in business for over forty years and don't snare anyone.
GROW UP ANON!!
"My guess is that the lawyers got it."
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that they took in on contingency which means they got 33% or so.
Lawyers are like the IRS, they always get theirs and I bet you they don't share it with anyone out of work or losing their mortgage.
"If you want a real treat in life you should eat supper with three or four of them. They nearly break their necks trying to be in the spotlight of the conversation."
ReplyDeleteBeen there and done that. Vines was the only one that ever fit this bill.
"...because I earn a decent living and live well below my means many of my friends who are unemployed benefit from the Lord's blessings on my business."
ReplyDeleteSmells like a MLM ie "My Friends", "My Business".
They just love to ensnare some unemployed into their web."
You are right. It does sound like typical amwayese. perhaps this anon is downline from James Merritt.
:o)
"...because I earn a decent living and live well below my means many of my friends who are unemployed benefit from the Lord's blessings on my business."
ReplyDeleteSmells like a MLM ie "My Friends", "My Business".
They just love to ensnare some unemployed into their web."
You are right. It does sound like typical amwayese. perhaps this anon is downline from James Merritt.
:o)
"...because I earn a decent living and live well below my means many of my friends who are unemployed benefit from the Lord's blessings on my business."
ReplyDeleteSmells like a MLM ie "My Friends", "My Business".
They just love to ensnare some unemployed into their web."
You are right. It does sound like typical amwayese. perhaps this anon is downline from James Merritt.
:o)
Yeah, the MLM types are "real good" at giving financial advice. Buy more tools, conference tickets, etc.
ReplyDeleteA good idea to google and look at all the lawsuits over such things at high levels before you get involved.
"I notice Jesus did not vet people before he healed them or fed them.
ReplyDeleteGood thing. Most would not have passed your qualifications."
This is how one mega church does it
Dental Bus
only can help the few who register with a church to get that one seat on the bus.
The real agenda starts at 2:28
Promote Bellevue Baptist Church
and then get other churches to pay for it.
The Bus Costs 400,000+, plus gas Insurance, Supplies, etc
as well as $100,000+ in Administration costs of the person running it. (Dentist are currently Volunteers but will be putting one on Staff shortly)
A very expensive toy
compared to how it was done in California
as a true community effort without an agenda.
Commenting on this one:
ReplyDelete"I can empathize with losing a job and even possibly losing you house but the reality is the economy and how the feds have totally messed it up. I own my own company and just like all of my friends who also own their own companies we are not going to hire anyone until the feds get out of the way."ect., ect.
Wow. And do you really think the Feds are going to simply get out of the way when they are collecting trillions on behalf of the mega-banks? They're just going to step aside at the wave of your hand, so your little business can prosper?
I see this all the time where people think they are part of this international power structure. Sorry to break it to you, but you are not a part of the billionaires club running this showdown between good and evil; prosperity and destitution.
Then you put down the Occupy Wall Street movements. I don't agree with everyone they say or do, but at least those young people have a backbone. They're seeing what their futures look like. They're also seeing that anyone over age 35 doesn't give a rip because they're too busy watching football and Dancing with the Stars.
This is not about you, anyone else, or a church giving money to people. It is about caring enough to stand up for what is right and showing a little sensitivity along the way. Pastors that showboat around on cruises on a tithe they pulled out of their hurting congregations is not showing sensitivity at all.
Your selfishness, lack of compassion and ignorance will hurt you, too, when the economy completely tanks.
And the billionaires club isn't going to give you a bailout, either.
Random:
ReplyDeleteWho needs a good word-cursing today?
PsRobertMorris Robert Morris
If God is first in your life, EVERYTHING will come into order. If God is not first, NOTHING will come into order.
And just know it doesn't mean how much you love God. You've got to give him 10 percent or God doesn't love you! Keep scattering the flock you moneychanger.
My wife and I went to Israel about 15 years ago and it was the experience of a lifetime. In terms of preaching and passion, this is the most significant trip that I have ever taken. As a pastor I can testify it certainly benefits the person who is trying to "teach in the footsteps of Jesus."
ReplyDeleteYou constantly rag on pastors as if you have a personal vendetta, and quite frankly, Tom it is quite old. You seem like a bitter and depressed person, Dawg. In to many cases, you speak like you have the spiritual gift of knowledge and are able to comprehend what every pastor should or should not be doing.
BTW: You should know that I didn't take a group nor did I personally benefit from said trip. My church was gracious enough to give the time off to make this "educational trip." I have over the years encouraged other people to go to Israel if they had an interest but I never felt compelled to take a group to Israel, but I have taken groups to "unreached people" groups around the world and the participants did not pay my way. I wonder, Tom, how many "unreached people" groups you have spent your own time and money on in the past 5 years.
Or
ReplyDeletePsRobertMorris Robert Morris
"If you give to God FIRST, He’ll provide for you & protect you…Tithing brings PROVISION & PROTECTION. (Malachi 3:10-11)"
23 Oct
To David (11:46)
ReplyDeleteThe Christian life is not a competition with everyone keeping a log of 'money given to unreached people groups' or 'time given to unreached people groups'!
While it is healthy to dialogue and discuss these pressing issues affecting the church in America, the dialogue should not dissolve to the 'well.. how many people have you led to the Lord?' question as if that forms part of the debate. It appears to be more of a comeback when dialogue and intelligent comments are exhausted.
I'm not keeping count and my understanding is that we are probably not aware of those we touch with God's love as we 'give cups of cold water' etc.
WD, Do not stop bringing these things to light. I have served in a mega and you are totally right on. They are receiving their reward here on earth and may never realize it unless the HS breaks through in their lives, I pity those He does not convict to repentance.
ReplyDeleteHi David - I'm glad to hear that you went on a trip to Israel and it was beneficial.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I commend you for going to minister to people and to lead people on mission trips instead of vacations to Israel. As I said in this article, I acknowledged that there are preachers like yourself doing the right thing.
It saddens me, however, that as a preacher you choose to have such a bitter spirit towards me and write with such disdain and assume to know my state of mind. I am certainly not bitter nor am I depressed! I am very happy and fulfilled, and I am a believer just as you are.
So blessings to you, I hope you keep doing the right thing and leading mission trips and not vacations and cruises.
while it's one thing to criticize pastors for making money off taking their people to Israel (or any other destination for that matter), it's worth pointing out that it can be a great experience to visit israel.
ReplyDeleteeasy to over-market and hype the "Walk where Jesus walked" experience, but if a pastor paid for the trip instead of making money off it, and took people from the church at the real cost, it could be a faith-growing experience.
"The local mega here also has a benevolance fund. By the time the poor single mom fills out all the paperwork, proves she is not at fault for the divorce, etc, it is months before she sees any help."
ReplyDeleteWhich MEGA are you referring to?
David said...
ReplyDelete"You constantly rag on pastors as if you have a personal vendetta, and quite frankly, Tom it is quite old.
You seem like a bitter and depressed person, Dawg.
In to many cases, you speak like you have the spiritual gift of knowledge and are able to comprehend what every pastor should or should not be doing.
......I wonder, Tom, how many "unreached people" groups you have spent your own time and money on in the past 5 years."
So in other words Dawg, SHUT UP , yous don't what yous talkin about.
Here's one on thems edukated preaching at SBTS
Greg Belser:
"May I tell you in ministry there will be few, because of your superior theological training here at the seminary, there will be few who will stand toe to toe and argue the finer points of theology with you? In the congregations that you serve and the context that you serve you will probably be either the first, second, or third most educated theological mind in almost any conversation. You will fight to not be too proud of that. I'm giving you that strong instruction today. You will fight to not think more highly of yourself than you ought to."
Now Dawg, that's what you could have been doing the last 5 years.
By the way, seminary's are now calling it Missiologists for those Doctors out there.
Oh and don't miss this at SWBTS, a Steinway experience ... Oh My... aren't those piano's heading out the back door of churches, like the organs?
To the Dawg:
ReplyDeleteMy comment to you was specific in light of your criticism of these trips to the Holy Land. First, I wanted you and others to realize the value of such a trip in so many ways that still impacts me and others many years later. Secondly, since you seem to always harp on money, I wonder what you do with your time and money. If you are not going on cruises then how do you spend your money, and do you go to more "spiritual" places on mission. Again, this is your argument, not mine, though others think I spiritualized the conversation. I was simply taking your bend and finding out if you are a man who backs up his big words? Tom, if you are going to being accusatory toward a "brother in Christ" (again you accused me of not knowing your spirit but you are constantly doing the same thing though in a much more public way of giving their name, church, basic background, and even resume--which yours would be an interesting one to see) then it seems to be that you better be "above reproach" as the word says. I wonder if you really believe that you are doing the "Lord's work" as you believe it or if you are spitting out hatred from what has been reportedly done to you at FBC?
Well, what is Tom? Do you give more than lip service to missions? Do you hold yourself to the same standard that you are holding men that you do not even know.
ReplyDeleteDavid - I really do enjoy reading your words that are full of contempt for me. It's not often that we get such a glimpse into the heart of a pastor who speaks from the heart as you are. Keep 'em coming!
ReplyDeleteWD, I really hope you're wrong about "David" being a pastor, though I am probably overly-optimistic.
ReplyDeleteI re-read his original post in this series and was overwhelmed by the use of the word "I" as he contrasted his spiritual superiority to "you"
I think he plagiarized that work--stealing his lines from his spiritual brother in Luke 18.
Contempt is a word that would be best used for your "heart." Many pastors give lip service to missions: exactly how do you declare that you are a judge of your brothers. Let's reverse this: Tom, otherwise known as Dawg gives lip service to the truth but he can't handle the truth about his own failings. I did not start a web blog to attack pastors and churches, many of whom you have never had one conversation with. Really I don't have contempt for you, it is ore like pity. As you said, "keep them coming," Tom and add to your spiritual resume of tearing down the "body of Christ." You are not going to get a "well done" from me, but the real question is what will your Lord say to you?
ReplyDeleteKeep 'em coming David!
ReplyDeleteWay to go Tom, now you can add "never have another evangelist at your church unless you want to be filmed in a porno scene" to your resume. Who has contempt now? What a hypocrite you are. Repent and shut down this site until you spend some quality time in prayer, study, and repentance.
ReplyDeleteAs a missionary in central america, this type of stuff is appalling to me. It's rampant and occurs in many different denominations and movements. These "pastors" care very little for the Gospel - it's basically all about "self" and where they can go on a vacation or conference. And those who join them are just as guilty. Just compare a megachurch pastor's salary with the average support a missionary receives. We would love to have just $100 more a month so we can feed some hungry kids - but they need a cruise. This will all come into judgment in the end. God is going to destroy this Babylon system that has taken over His church. The pastor is not God and we do not need these megachurch buildings.
ReplyDelete