In case you missed it, earlier this year in the "Elephant Room" open forum hosted by James MacDonald and Mark "I see church members having illicit sex" Driscoll, Perry Noble and Matt Chandler said some very interesting things about just who in Christianity is and who is not allowed to call out pastors for their false doctrines and nutty, even abusive practices.You see, as Al Mohler pointed out in the FBC Jax Pastor's Conference this year, pastors apparently are "God-appointed agents" to deliver God's word to the unlearned pew sitter. Thus, pew sitters and the lowly "Internet bloggers" are not allowed to call out false doctrine. Perry says only "pastors, elders, leaders of the church" are allowed to call out error.
If you give these guys say another 100 years or so, they will establish another Catholic church where the pope and the church God-appointed hierarchy delivers God's word to the masses.
In the clip below you'll hear Perry say:
"Pastors, elders, leaders of the church should be the ones, if error is going to be called out, not based on their personal preference, but on doctrinal accuracy."
If error is going to be called out? IF? Perry probably hasn't read Acts 17:11 where church members were commended in how they checked the accuracy of what they were hearing against the Bible. Sure, Perry would like to limit criticism to his pastor friends, and to leaders and elders that worship him and wouldn't dare to cross him.
Then Perry says:
"I don't think that God raised up Internet bloggers to call out wolves - who have an opinion and a website."
This is more of the whining of pastors who dish it out but can't take it. Noble and his emergent mega church pals are experts at using social media to get their message out. They hire marketing experts to brand their church, they blog, they Tweet, they have video podcasts. They write books, then they travel to each others' churches to push their books. They hold seminars like the "Elephant Room" to influence other pastors. They have virtually unlimited resources to get their message out, and yet they declare that Christian Internet bloggers shouldn't use the same social media to call out their false doctrine or even express criticism of the methods they use.
Sorry, Perry. If you believe God has blessed you with the social media you use to evangelize, then you better accept that God will use Internet bloggers to point out your error, and to criticize you. God is using bloggers like Wartburg Watch and Wade Burleson and Chris Rosebrough and Christa Brown and others to shine a light on false doctrine, nutty church practices, and abusive church systems and to speak plain truth about mega churches and egomaniac preachers.
Praise God for the "Internet bloggers". They are doing a great service to Christianity. When I hear guys like Noble and Chandler popping off about bloggers, it lets me know that Internet bloggers ARE doing good, and are making a positive impact on the church.
And in the video, you'll also hear Matt Chandler say that Internet bloggers get no support from him because they are people who "live with their moms." Hardy-har-har.
Also, in the video, at the end, you can watch Al Mohler deliver his statement from the 2011 FBC Jax Pastor's Conference about just how important preachers are to the salvation of souls. Al's quote:
"...we believe that those who teach and preach the word of God are God-appointed agents to save God's people from ignorance....life and death, heaven and hell, hang in the balance. If you do not faithfully teach the word of God such that your people hear it and understand it and grow upon it, they are consigned to unfaithfulness and many will be consigned to hell."
No wonder these guys want no criticism. Their work is so important - heaven and hell are in the balance! If they don't do their jobs, or if we point out that they are NOT God's anointed, church members will fall into unfaithfulness (meaning they leave the mega churches?) and many will be consigned to hell. Yes, a pastor's poor preaching will cause people to burn forever in eternal torment. We need pastors to tell us what the Bible says, and to criticize them is to criticize God himself. No wonder these guys have huge egos.
Speaking of the FBC Jax Pastor's Conference, did you know that live video feed of the next "Elephant Room" round table discussion moderated by Mark "I see church members having illicit sex" Driscoll will be one of the options for attendees at the FBC Jax 2012 Pastor's Conference? It is true. Mac and Trey Brunson have decided to use the FBC Jax Ruth Lindsay Auditorium to expose SBC pastors at their conference to the likes of Driscoll, T.D. Jakes, Steven Furtick, and James MacDonald.
FBC Jax Pastor's Conference attendees: click here for more information on how you can pay $59 extra dollars to sit at the feet of T.D. Jakes and Steven Furtick and Mark Driscoll in the Ruth Lindsay Auditorium while in town for the pastor's conference.
Hosting the Elephant Room is a new low for the FBC Jax Pastor's Conference.
Wow! Once again you have taken a few quotes out of context (like you often do) to mercilessly criticize others. You are so shallow, self agrandizing, and self righteous. From your writing and poor research abilities, I've come to believe that you are too ignorant, foolish, and selfishly deluded to comment on much of anything. Go ahead and respond with your typical straw man defense of yourself and canned ridicule of others who oppose you. It makes me laugh! You sound just like those you criticize.
ReplyDeleteWatchdog,
ReplyDeleteI like the concept of watching pastors wrestle with contemporary issues. However, I wish there would be more than just the Calvinist perspective. Do you think if there was a spectrum of doctrinal beliefs present, and a spectrum of ministry types (not just mega church pastors, but professors, theologians, youth pastors, musicians, etc), would the "Elephant Room" accomplish more? Or is the only way for something like that to work is to have a group mutually admiring, doctrinally monolithic pastors?
Pastors and SBC bigwigs need to keep saying things like this in order to justify their positions and to keep the huge institutional machine rolling.
ReplyDeleteKeep exposing the wolves and false doctrine Watchdog. A lot of us lowly pew sitters ARE Bereans and agree with you.
FBC Jax Watchdog (in his blog post) said: “Praise God for the ‘Internet bloggers’. [sic] They are doing a great service to Christianity. When I hear guys like Noble and Chandler popping off about bloggers, it lets me know that Internet bloggers ARE doing good, and are making a positive impact on the church.”
ReplyDeletePeople like these guys are going to learn the hard way that you cannot control what people post on the Internet.
I find it amazing that while the secular world has been coming to grips with this fact, Christian church leaders like these guys remain so insulated inside their respective realms of power that they think that they can pressure Christian bloggers in the broader Christian community like they can pressure people in churches directly under their control or influence.
“Their power begins where your property line ends.”
They would be wise to think hard about this saying and what it means for their future, especially in terms of the Internet.
All Christians are called to test what they hear (and read) against the scripture, while led by the Holy Spirit into "all truth".
ReplyDeleteThese pastors are doing advance prevention for when they get caught in teaching false doctrine. They can cover their rearward parts or have their buddies do so.
THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BIBLE TO SUGGEST THAT THE LAITY (PEOPLE OF GOD) DO NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT IN ORDER TO CORRECT AND REPROOF THOSE WHO CHOOSE THEMSELVES TO BE OVERSEERS. In fact, Jesus taught explicitly otherwise.
Whatever happened to the idea that every believer is "prophet, priest and king"?
ReplyDeleteIsn't that one of the main doctrines of evangelical Christianity?
WD taking quotes out of context is nothing new.
ReplyDeleteWhiners claiming I take quotes out of context without substantiating their claim, is nothing new.
ReplyDelete:)
Anytime these pastors are exposed for doing something wrong, their followers cry that it was taken "out of context". Classic.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWow! Once again you have taken a few quotes out of context to mercilessly criticize others.
Pastors feel responsible for their followers. However, they have none.
They are not the spiritual gestapo. Everyone in christ needs to call out False Doctrine. The consequences can create harm both physicaly and mentaly because the religious system is of the devil. Bless those who belong to christ.
False doctrine is to be dealt with by each and every Christian. Virgin birth, Trinity, perfect Bible, eternal salvation, shedding of blood by Jesus Christ to remove the guilt of sin, resurrection, all believers are members of the priesthood, tribulation, second coming. These are the essentials.
ReplyDeleteWhat some would have you believe are other things that don't matter at all in the scheme of eternity. Pastoral authority (unliminted), select group of men who are chosen by the pastor as the only ones in power. Once you cross any of these you are on your own. Thats why scripture teaches us to STUDY the Bible ourselves. We don't need any other man to tell us what God wants us to do and what His commandments are either to the Jew, the Gentile, or the Church. Something bad wrong going on in most churches which is the idea that the pew sitter is dumb. Actually some of the women teachers I have heard can outpreach the pastors in some circles. By that I mean they teach scripture not history and physical sciences if you know what I mean.
It's kind of ironic that these guys claim to care about the scriptural knowledge and spiritual growth of their followers, yet they are quick to let them know that there's only so far they are able to go as laity.
ReplyDeleteSomehow they are ropin folks in...
I wonder - what would student athletes and their parents think of a coach who told players they could be good but they could never exceed his own ability or performance. What kind of team would that message produce?
Anna A asked: "Whatever happened to the idea that every believer is "prophet, priest and king"?
ReplyDeleteSorry, the "king" post is reserved for the top-dog, the kingpin, the "lead visonary," the senior pastor with a "kingly" gifting. After all, we cannot pay everyone a kingly salary and compensation package, can we?
________________________
And we who trust in Christ are, as it were, born into exile ourselves. We have Christ as our prophet, priest, and king and this does not mean we have no need of prophets, priests or kings in our own lives. What may be said, however, is that we must continually guard against the abuse of these titles and ranks by those who wish to vaunt themselves as having this or that gift...
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/search?q=prophet+priest+king
Chandler and Noble have won more people to Jesus in their sleep then you have in your life.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to criticize someone, how about starting with yourself.
This is pure baloney and it is clear that some coward hiding behind a computer cannot be a Matt. 18 voice to a Pastor.
Grow up and get a life.
I hate the use of these blogs to condemn and pour hate out on our Pastors and Leaders....I bet our God hates this blog too.
I think most of the pew sitters are dumb. Just look at a Benny Hinn crusade and tell me how anybody with a brain larger than a split pea can sit and take what's going on seriously. Most of the time the attendance is usually "sold out" so I stand by my statement. Same thing with most of the megas. Show time!
ReplyDeleteThey need to read the book of Judges and find out the characters that God called to judge the so-called untouchables of Israel. Let's look at some of them
ReplyDeleteEhud- Lowly servant to king. Ehud actually killed the ruler.
Deborah- a female judge in the period of time when females were not as respected.
Gideon- The son of Joash the Abiezrite from the town of Ophrah. Who, Where? Yes exactly my point.
Jephthah- an illegitimate child who was considered an outcast in those days.
Anon 8:16
ReplyDeleteNoble and Chandler have never "won" anyone to Christ. They preached the message; the Holy Spirit convicted them of their sin; and JESUS saved them. Preachers don't "save" anybody; Jesus does. I have even heard Driscoll say that preachers are just "mailmen": their job is to deliver the message: God does the saving.
"I hate the use of these blogs to condemn and pour hate out on our Pastors and Leaders..."
ReplyDeleteThis might be the single most hilarious statement I have ever read on this blog.
Thanks TROLL for getting my Monday started off with a HUGE laugh!
An apt post for some of the comments here: Searching Together [Jon Zens] > SHOULD THE TAIL WAG THE DOG?.
ReplyDelete"God does the saving."
ReplyDeleteYeah, but the TROLL would rather worship the guy who preaches to him every Sunday.
Maybe those mega-pastors could just tell their huge churches to "come out from among them and be ye separate." They could advise against using the internet. They could say it's a sin to read blogs critical of their pastor. They could advise their members to just come to them for any needed info about the world, how to do their life, to find out what God wants, what to do with their money, etc.
ReplyDeleteI think these pastors would have a much easier job somewhere where people have less freedom, less money, less education, and can't afford computers. Somewhere also where no thinking is required on the part of those in the pews. Just a warm feeling of security and knowing that the pastor will take care of everything!
Off Topic: The Wartburg Watch ladies are visiting Enid ...
ReplyDeleteWe are still visiting in lovely Enid, Oklahoma, with Wade and Rachelle Burleson. We are having a wonderful time and are grateful to be in the presence of a real pastor, not just some talking head. Last night, we got to have dinner with Debbie Kaufman, who was instrumental in exposing the lies of Ergun Caner. What a courageous woman! Tomorrow will be an intense work day as we look at our project. What a trip!
"Whiners claiming I take quotes out of context without substantiating their claim, is nothing new."
ReplyDeleteThere's no point. It's a wasted exercise because you're always right.
What happened to the priesthood of the believer? Explain how a "preacher or elder", the day before they are ordained into their lofty positions, are not qualified to judge doctrine,or pass judgement on the rest of us, because they are not yet officially ordained, but 24 hours later when they have been ordained (by man) they suddenly are official scholars.What do these self professed scholars do with 2nd Tim: chp2vs.15: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth". The Catholic church hid the word from the people for years in order to control the people. God gave the Bible to all of us to know Him and to live by. Believers cannot be controlled by another man-made philosophy unless they hand over their blood bought sovereignty to another man.
ReplyDeleteBloggers do the job the media won't do and the job that those with somehjng to hide love to hate.
ReplyDeleteWOW a One-ness Pentecostal at the FBC JX Pastors Conference!!! Just a WOW on that one
ReplyDeleteThis is just further proof they are the Nicolatians mentioned in Revelation. We have more and more proof every day. Yet, people will see this and believe it and continue to support them.
ReplyDeleteIt is irony that they expect the people who pay them to not be able to ever correct them. Nice gig, huh? Lots of CEO's would like those kinds of stockholders!
"Chandler and Noble have won more people to Jesus in their sleep then you have in your life."
ReplyDeleteGee, and I thought the Holy Spirit did that. We are just messengers.
Guess you don't like your idols smashed.
Why don't you act like a man and call Perry Noble?
ReplyDeleteHave you ever tried?
It is sad to read this Blog because supposedly Watchdog is a Christian?
Do you ever see people writing things in secret in the Bible? (crickets)
Liars and Blasphemers have some pretty harsh things said about them in Scripture...I am praying for you...You really need it.
Anon says: "Do you ever see people writing things in secret in the Bible? (crickets)"
ReplyDeleteAnon, you do realize you're "writing things in secret" by posting anonymously. Have you ever tried calling me? :)
I love the really "deep" thinkers that defend these guys.
I am not a pastor, just a believer, so what I have to say next, no one needs to heed!
ReplyDeleteSouthern Baptist Convention, Soon Becoming Catholic, are already on the way attempting to establish a church run state. History shows us that the last time that attempt was successful, we had the dark ages. Dark because there was no word of God going out of the Roman Church.
True Baptists are opposed to denominational organizations and state and church collaboration. But not Southern Baptists.
True baptists know that the Law, including tithing, was nailed to the cross - abolished, having been fulfilled in Christ. True baptists know that Jesus is our high priest, the Holy Spirit our teacher - we need no men for teachers. Pastors are shepherds, proclaiming prophesy in the New Testament way: It Is Written! This is how Peter preached the first sermon in Acts 2. And true baptists know that is the day that the spiritual kingdom of God arrived in the earth. True baptist are not looking for an earthly kingdom because Christ said His kingdom is NOT of this world! But Southern Baptist, a denomination that is steeped in worldly politics, inside and out of the church institution are of the earthly beast of Revelation 13, the ecclesiastical beast that looks like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon! The Dragon!
These preachers speak of doctrine being in their realm alone because they know nothing of the doctrine of Christ. They are ignorant of prophesy. They are earthy, worldly, of this world! What did you expect as you sit in the pews of these leaders of unregenerate men and women. Unregenerate, but religious. These are the ones they want in the pews, because these are the blind, and deaf - blind and deaf to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Come out from among her, my people!
I've visited a Catholic church just a couple times, and what struck me is the great divide between those up front-the authority-and those in the pews. I guess that's great for those who are "the authority"-I mean, good grief! They speak for God!! And the role of everybody else is to humbly obey. It's a perfect set-up for the Dark Ages and a theocracy.
ReplyDeleteIt saddens me that Matt Chandler participated in this. He's been through such an ordeal with cancer, and God chose to deliver him. Usually something like that serves to change one's outlook on life and soften a person's attitude toward others.
ReplyDeleteA few verses come to mind about confrontation:
ReplyDelete"Brothers, even if a person is caught in some trespass, you who have the Spirit should restore him in a spirit of meekness, watching out for yourselves so that you won't be tempted too." (Gal. 6:1)
"But when I saw that they weren't walking in line with the truth of the good news, I said to Cephas in front of everybody, 'If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and don't live like a Jew, how can you compel Gentiles to live like Jews?'" (Gal. 3:14)
And of course, the one that most churches skip over the first half of and jump to the end:
"If your brother sins against you, go and convict him of his sin privately, with just the two of you present. If he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he won't listen to you, take with you one or two others so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be confirmed. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen to the church, treat him like a Gentile and tax collector." (Matt 18:15-17)
Keeping in mind, there are three C's involved. Confrontation out of Concern in order to bring about a Change that is glorifying to God.
I too am saddened to see Matt Chandler adding his two cents to this. It's disappointing to say the very least.
ReplyDeleteI would only add that Matt has been subjected to the most vile comments relating to his cancer and his relationship with Christ. He's been called an 'idiot' for believing in the "God who is hiding from us all". Even his wife and children have been belittled. From there you can use your own imaginations.
I can't say that I blame him for reacting to such venom. It's surely misplaced, but still somewhat understandable.
I'm going to continue to pray for Matt and his family. He has a very aggressive cancer and the recurrence rate is 85%.
Matt 18 involves unconditional forgiveness. It also involves going to the person twice who has offended you personally and attempt to reconcile the situation. This is hardly if ever done. Get the picture?
ReplyDelete1. ". . . Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately . . ." Acts 18:24-26
ReplyDelete2. ". . . In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Hellenistic Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food . . ." Acts 6:1
3. ". . . When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray . . ." Galatians 2:11-13
Find more yourself. If I'm not mistaken, biblical passages such as these indicate that men called by God to serve vocationally in Christian ministry are: men---fallen in sin but saved by grace, positionally righteous but practically still sinners and subject to continued failure; hopefully, better educated in regard to the Bible than most Christians, but probably not better than my momma!
Everybody: grow up (seminary presidents, well-known and out-spoken pastors, bloggers, and all) and get along!
"love the really "deep" thinkers that defend these guys."
ReplyDeleteI know! But these celebrity pastors do not attract deep thinkers.
"love the really "deep" thinkers that defend these guys."
ReplyDeleteI know! But these celebrity pastors do not attract deep thinkers.
"love the really "deep" thinkers that defend these guys."
ReplyDeleteI know! But these celebrity pastors do not attract deep thinkers.
Katie, Pray for him to stop lying to people. I am serious. He is in more danger from that.
My daddy said there are 3 things he hates:
ReplyDeleteWarm beer
Wet toilet paper
A smart aleck
Guess which one you are?
God said he hates those who sow discord among the Brethren.
Shut this blog down, it stinks and is causing people to stop trusting their God appointed Leaders.
You are sowing the Devils seed.
You are sowing the Devils seed.
ReplyDeleteYou know who is really, really sowing Devil's seed?
It is "God appointed" (more like man appointed) "leaders" ... read on : Wade Burleson > Trifling with Subtleties while Ignoring Certainties: Turning the Gospel into a Gender Gospel.
Shocked? Not me.
My guess is that Martin Luther would have developed his 95 thesis on a blog should he have lived in our day and age. He would also have probably had a bunch of "priests" telling him how he had no right to do so, and would probably be accused of living with his mom.
ReplyDeleteAs most know, in fact the pope did demand that he retract his writings. When he didn't, he was excommunicated and considered an outlaw. Oh, that I would be excommunicated and considered an outlaw by one of these guys. I'd wear that badge with honor.
I have come to the point in my life that the church I attend has to meet my standards not the other way around. Whenever I see super ego in the pulpit area I move on and don't look back. Its so refreshing and there are no regrets.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous (December 13, 2011 9:24 PM) said: “God said he hates those who sow discord among the Brethren.”
ReplyDeleteSo Christians should just agree with each other and fall in line without qualification?
Anonymous (December 13, 2011 9:24 PM) said: “Shut this blog down, it stinks and is causing people to stop trusting their God appointed Leaders.”
So Christians should just trust their respective Pastors without qualification? If so, then who do you follow when different “God appointed Leaders” disagree with each other over an issue? Why?
Anonymous (December 13, 2011 9:24 PM) said: “You are sowing the Devils seed.”
So everything which you disagree with is “the Devil’s seed”?
"Shut this blog down"
ReplyDeleteWho's going to do that TROLL?
You? Don't make me laugh.
We have a right to free speech in this country. Deal with it fascist!
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteMaybe those mega-pastors could just tell their huge churches to "come out from among them and be ye separate." They could advise against using the internet. They could say it's a sin to read blogs critical of their pastor. They could advise their members to just come to them for any needed info about the world, how to do their life, to find out what God wants, what to do with their money, etc."
Here's an example of that:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2011/11/14/trust-and-obey-for-theres-no-other-way-to-possibly-stay-at-c.html
jmb (December 15, 2011 5:09 AM) said:
ReplyDelete“Anonymous said...
‘Maybe those mega-pastors could just tell their huge churches to “come out from among them and be ye separate.” They could advise against using the internet. They could say it's a sin to read blogs critical of their pastor. They could advise their members to just come to them for any needed info about the world, how to do their life, to find out what God wants, what to do with their money, etc.’
Here's an example of that:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2011/11/14/trust-and-obey-for-theres-no-other-way-to-possibly-stay-at-c.html”
As the Internet progressively forces Christian churches to choose between adapting to its power and resisting its power, I think that we are going to see more Christian churches like CrossWay Community Church in Charlotte, NC try such tactics before they either die or are forced to adapt to its power.
And, in light of this, I think that how many Christian churches are responding to the power of the Internet is revealing the unfortunate fact that cultic behavior in Christian churches is more common than we realize.
/Queue the picture of an open door illuminating dusty wooden steps into a pitch black basement.
These pastors who push themselves out into the public sphere have left themselves open for public criticism. If Driscoll, Furtick, Mohler, etc., etc., etc., don't want to be criticized, they need to keep their preachments within the church walls. If they bring their nonsense (and much of it is nonsense and doesn't reflect Jesus at all) out into the public eye, then the public not only has a right but should feel obligated to call these guys out.
ReplyDeleteIf I can call out the "church" of $cientology for its evil behaviors, I am certainly not going to remain silent about the sins of the Baptists and their fellow-travelers.
Good job on this. I am going to reblog it for sure.
ReplyDeleteLOL...did someone here really refer to Perry Noble as a Pastor?? BWAHAHAHAHA. That's just rich. Hilarious.
ReplyDelete