Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. Sometimes my spoofs of pastors get out-spoofed by the pastors themselves.Case in point: a friend emailed me this past week with a link to a "Funded and Free" seminar to teach pastors how to "fund their vision", that I thought for sure must be some sort of April Fool's spoof making fun of the fund-raising practices of preachers Perry Noble, Clayton King, and a few others.
This seminar bears a striking resemblance to my 2011 April Fool's spoof, "Al Mohler's Save Them From Their Ignorance Retreat for Pastors".
But this seminar next month is real. Perry and friends - along with a group called "Injoy Stewardship Solutions" - will be holding a one-day seminar at a church in Charlotte, NC that will teach pastors how to "fully fund" their vision.
What will Perry and friends be teaching your pastor if he attends this seminar? Some very important topics that all holy men of God need to know:
- how to increase operational giving by 30% or more
- how to talk to banks
- leading and developing those with the gift of giving
- best practices for engaging "high capacity donors"
That Perry Noble would use his face and name to sell this sort of nonsense tells you what he really thinks of what he preaches. He tells people that they must trust God with their finances by blindly forking over 10% to receive God's blessings. Yet when it comes to pastors, they need to go to a seminar so THEY CAN LEARN how they can "fully fund" their vision?
Where is THEIR faith in trusting God to provide resources? Answer? There is no faith. Instead there are tips, tricks, and best practices to get trusting, gullible people to separate from their money.
Look at what the conference leaders say at their website to pastors:
"Dear Church Leader,Look at the terminology: "your God-given vision"..."frustrated by your efforts"....this explains why they mercilessly beat the sheep to fork over 10%. Because the pew sitter has the money in their pocket that can help the preacher fulfill the "vision" God has given directly to them. What is this vision? Look at what they say next:
Are you frustrated that despite your efforts, you can't seem to increase your giving?
Does all the latest "generosity lingo" seem to be getting lost in translation?
Does it often feel impossible to take the next step in your God-given visions, because of money?
These are some very common issues we see church leaders struggling with all the time. You have a strong desire to fulfill your God-given vision for growth in your ministry, but you get discouraged at how difficult it can often be to raise the necessary funds."
"Perhaps your vision includes one of the following...Yes, the pastor's God-given vision might be to "hire more staff"....and the catch-all "do more ministry".
• Building Project
• Pay Down Debt
• Hire More Staff
• Increase General Fund
• Do More Ministry"
Here is the line-up of speakers:
We all know about Perry Noble. But who is Clayton King? He is the friend of Perry Noble, and is on staff at Nobles' church, and more shockingly, he is the "Campus Pastor" at Liberty University. The preacher to the students at Liberty is participating in a seminar on how to tap into rich donors, how to talk to banks, and how to fund visions from God.
So there you have it, friends. This is what your pastor can learn in Charlotte, North Carolina at this "free" seminar. Free in that there is no registration cost, but this in and of itself is a marketing ploy to help a church consultant possibly gain access to your church through your pastor. So it ain't free, and church members, don't pay for your pastor's travel expenses to this seminar.
And if your "man of God" does attend, watch out for the sales pitch coming from the church marketers, as they will want to help you raise your revenues at your church; and their services ain't free.
Now off to sulk over being out-spoofed by Perry Noble himself.....and to figure out what in the world I am going to do for the 2012 April Fool's Post.
This is getting tougher and tougher each year!
Some thoughts revolving around a blog post by Perry Noble wherein PN chastises would-be conference attenders who ask for financial mercy so as to be able to attend.
ReplyDeleteronclick.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/im-sorry-but-i-really-need-to-deconstruct-this/
Might I add a couple of more good speakers? "Doctor" Mike Murdock and "Doctor" Juanita Bynum. If neither are available then there are plenty more where they come from. Just contact TBN,Daystar,or Insp.
ReplyDeleteI agree, it's so ridiculous all you can do is laugh! It highlights the very old problem of what the pastor says and what people actually do in real life are two very different things and always will be.
ReplyDeleteSo when pastors need money, do they fall on their knees before God and remind God that he said he'd supply all your needs according to his riches in glory? Isn't that what they'd tell their congregants to do? To have faith in God, who will NEVER let them down, who will provide a way and has a wonderful plan for their life??
No, they do what any businessman would do. They finagle, borrow, makes speeches, implore others to pledge money, using fear of hellfire, fear of curses, even fear that they might drop dead on the spot. They promise people that God will come through for them financially, God will be pleased with them, it's their duty to give the pastor the money, and on and on.
So they do not look to God, obviously. They go to the bank or try to get it from gullible people. Nothing spiritual about it.
Oh, also, I had a chuckle the other morning while listening to Glenn Beck. He was passionately speaking of how all hell will break loose any minute now and it's not gonna be pretty. He was sounding so sincere, so preacher-like. Then a two-second pause, and he says, "Our sponsor today is..."
ReplyDeleteI could only laugh at the absurdity of it all. It's like, "Today's speech about the world ending very soon is brought to you by..."
A thought that popped into my mind is advertising for preachers. They could do the same thing in their sermons. I'm sure this sounds like insulting, and I don't mean to insult, it's just that it would pay the bills. There are all these people sitting there, potential customers for whatever product, so advertisers would be interested I'd think.
Anon: Wow, bravo, excellent post. You summed it up quite nicely!
ReplyDeleteThey are businessmen, or more precisely salesmen, and they have tricks of their trade in how to close the sale, how to generate revenue. Every salesperson in a given market or industry has certain methods to maximize their sales, and to persuade people to buy their product. These men are no different.
It really is sickening to hear these guys go on and on about how sheep need to give the FIRST 10%, and trust God for the rest. They tell them if God has a will, he has the bill. But this sort of nonsense shows that Perry Noble isn't into trusting God for finances, it is up to the preacher.
But isn't this what Ed Young has said? He is the "franchise player" as he once described, the one who is responsible for raising the revenue.
Readers, go read Ron's article that he posted the hyperlink to at the top of this comment string.
Oh, also, I had a chuckle the other morning while listening to Glenn Beck. He was passionately speaking of how all hell will break loose any minute now and it's not gonna be pretty. He was sounding so sincere, so preacher-like. Then a two-second pause, and he says, "Our sponsor today is..."
ReplyDeleteI could only laugh at the absurdity of it all. It's like, "Today's speech about the world ending very soon is brought to you by..."
A thought that popped into my mind is advertising for preachers. They could do the same thing in their sermons. I'm sure this sounds like insulting, and I don't mean to insult, it's just that it would pay the bills. There are all these people sitting there, potential customers for whatever product, so advertisers would be interested I'd think.
"financial mercy"
ReplyDeleteI'm in agreement with your thoughts re these churches which are so obviously businesses. But I can't help commenting on your use of the term "financial mercy." Is that a spiritual way of saying "money?"
What Noble is doing, is following in the footsteps of his Elephant Room buds. It's called "upstreaming."
ReplyDeleteDon't waste your time on the middle-class, working class masses. Go for the movers and shakers at the top. That's where the real money is. Skim that cream.
Those at the top are the ones with the influence in the community anyway. You get them to join your party, everyone else is going to want to come anyway. So go upstream. Don't waste your time with chump change. Ignore the ones who cannot contribute big bucks. Remember the 80/20 Rule.
And don't look to your existing shepherds to help you "lead" your flock. Those guys know you too well and might question some of your actions. Instead, go outside your church and hire a big-time executive search firm to find you some guy with major donor connections who will be beholden to you as his boss. http://www.vanderbloemen.com/jobs/mars-hill-church-execdirmin
Now you get to call the shots and he'll make it happen. That's the way mega-church is done these days. You better get with the program, or you won't be running with the Elephants!
A
Unfortunately, this same attitude is infecting the Catholic Church. My diocese is having a very large fundraiser, with suggested pledge amounts based, presumably, on previous history of giving.
ReplyDeleteFortunately, my pastor isn't the in your face type, but I got lucky. The diocesan representative wasn't there to help out. With more luck, at our next one-on-one meeting, he or she will be absent again.
As for me, I'm shifting most of my parish giving to a line item that the diocese can't touch. (at least according to our previous pastor)
Anna: "Unfortunately, this same attitude is infecting the Catholic Church."
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, that's what the Catholic Church has been about for centuries. They taught all the other spinoffs how its done! Noble, Furtick, Driscoll, Young, Jakes - they all just want their fair share of that action. They want to be Popes over their own little empires.
And yet...
ReplyDeleteThe people go. The people give.
It's like asking to be raped.
You might want to take a look at the relationship commitments of the church where this conference is being held. Wow.
ReplyDeleteAnd Be the Prophet of God to the masses....
ReplyDeleteDr. Robert Jeffress
"I think many pastors are shrinking from the role of being a prophet -- some because they don't understand the Bible. You know in the Bible, the prophets didn't just speak to God's own people; they spoke to ungodly rulers, ungodly cultures. And without stuttering or stammering said, 'thus sayeth the Lord,' and today pastors are called to be prophets as well."
Thus saith Jehovah:
Give Me Your Money!!!!
Although the work of Noble and those in that demographic is toxic, it is not insidious. They are the equivalent of con-men and their success is, like that of all con-men, predicated on collaboration from the targets. The targets -- congregants, other pastors, etc. -- are to a degree complicit because they are also looking for something for nothing: return on investment, blessing, "enlarged borders," "favor," and more. Noble et al. sells them the key.
ReplyDeleteI work in venture capital areas. Noble is our most common "type:" a guy who tells you how he has a grand idea, amazing skills, lots of connections, deep experience, unwavering commitment -- in short, he is a superman of sorts, all he needs is for us to give him money. He can do everything except he needs people to give him money. He regales his family, friends, employees, even strangers, with what a great opportunity they have to invest in him. VC's meet Nobles every week: they are superior human beings and all they need is for the inferior beings to part with their money and give it to them.
I honestly don't see the Nobles of the church scene as dangerous in any profound way -- they are noisy and visible but they carry a warning sign as big as their ego. They are a side show. Far more significant are the sober, serious, "humble," scholars who modify scripture and send people looking for salvation without a Savior.
"This is getting tougher and tougher each year!" :-) :-) :-)
ReplyDeleteHere's the gimmick they are selling and you don't need to waste your time and money attending this conference:
ReplyDelete1) Through sermons, guilt your people into believing the legalism around tithing is still part of New Testament Christianity. (They are dumb sheep who don't study their Bible after all).
2) Repeat #1 a minimum of 5 times per year, preferably 10.
3) Make sure your church covenant is legally solid to discipline those who question your interpretation of scripture.
4) Make sure you are completely oblivious and don't care to undertake careful study of scripture as it pertains to tithing. Just take it as "my daddy taught it" and "my baptist denomination teaches it" so it must be of God.
Thinking about all of this, I think the funniest part of this seminar is the "talking to banks" part.
ReplyDeleteWhat on earth would Perry Noble or one of these other guys know about "talking to banks"? Let's assume they mean "lenders".
What tips would Perry & Co. provide about talking to lenders that has anything to do with "funding your vision"? Perhaps they think by talking correctly to lenders, using the right terms and bible verses a pastor can get a lender to fork over money to fund a vision?
It is absolutely hilarious.
Would love to have a WD reader who lives up in that area attend and report back on what these guys actually talk about, especially with respect to "talking to banks".
It takes money to do ministry.
ReplyDeleteJesus said you go after fish and there will be money in their mouths.
Jesus talked more about money than any other subject.
Why don't you do some research and you will see that a rich guy donated Jesus a burial plot.
A rich guy gave so money to Jesus that Jesus needed a treasurer.
You don't need a treasurer if you are broke.
A rich guy gave Jesus a donkey to ride into town. Donkey's were expensive and most people had to walk. Donkey's were the "Lexus" of their day.
It would help you if you knew a little more...you wouldn't come across looking like a Christian Bill Maher.
Steve Gaines needs to teach the "How to Talk to Banks" session. Pretty simple: tell the banker
ReplyDelete"Every time a banker refuses my loan, they are just like Ananias and Sapphira. What if today God dealt with lenders just like he did with Ananias and Sapphira? How many lenders would be wrapped up in blankets and taken out the back door?"
If a church sent their pastor to this conference, it would be like training for a salesman. It's like he would come back with an agenda and would be using sales techniques.
ReplyDeleteMost people know that when you're talking with a salesman, you aren't having a sincere, honest exchange. The salesman is trying to accomplish something-getting you to part with your money. To him, you aren't a person-you are a potential customer.
Re talking with banks. I'm picturing a pastor at the bank saying, "I had this vision from God last nite. He wants us to build..."
I was discussing all this with someone, about how you should focus on the wealthy movers and shakers. He disagreed. He said the credit card companies know that you focus on the poor, ignorant masses. They're more susceptible to your message of fear, etc. Wealthy people know more how money works, interest rates, etc. Or like if you're a slumlord, you can't get away with the same things with your OWN neighbors-they're too smart or have money and power of their own.
Some of these analogies might not make sense, but I think you see what I'm trying to say. So maybe the pastors should go for the more gullible instead of the more sophisticated?
"Every time a banker refuses my loan, they are just like Ananias and Sapphira. What if today God dealt with lenders just like he did with Ananias and Sapphira? How many lenders would be wrapped up in blankets and taken out the back door?"
ReplyDeleteLOL! Good one!
Actually, can you imagine yourself telling someone that if they don't give you money God may very well strike them dead? I guess that only works if it's coming from the mouth of someone important like a Man of God.
There seems to be an abundance of bitternes in most of these post...hmmm..lets see..."I don't give anything (or very little) to God so I'm gonna attack anybody who encourages me to give, that way I can handle the guilt of not giving" WAH! WAH! WAH! DONT TITHE or GIVE ANYTHING! But for petes sake stop whinning about those who do or those who encourage others to give. A pastor has a huge God given responsibility and shame on you that constantly criticise...how about stepping in and helping..or better yet why not just pray for them instead of tearing them down...just saying...
ReplyDeleteI gave cheerfully at FBC today and it was packed in the house this morning!
ReplyDeleteI give and then God gives to me.
I tithe and my children are all on the honor roll.
I tithe and my tires on my car have lasted over 65,000 miles!
I work for Winn Dixie and have survived several layoffs because I tithe.
I tithe and I have not had a cavity in 6 years.
God is good!!
you give and you are still dumb as a sack full of cold bricks.
ReplyDelete"There seems to be an abundance of bitternes in most of these post...hmmm..lets see..."I don't give anything (or very little) to God so I'm gonna attack anybody who encourages me to give, that way I can handle the guilt of not giving" WAH! WAH! WAH! DONT TITHE or GIVE ANYTHING! But for petes sake stop whinning about those who do or those who encourage others to give. A pastor has a huge God given responsibility and shame on you that constantly criticise...how about stepping in and helping..or better yet why not just pray for them instead of tearing them down...just saying..."
ReplyDeleteIf the pastor has a huge "God-given" responsibility, then wouldn't God supply the money? Would God ask him to do something without giving him the money to do it? Why would God make the pastor have to yell re giving and go to seminars on how to find money? Why doesn't the pastor just pray for the money and trust God to supply it? Doesn't God hear the prayers of a Man of God?
I'm not trying to be nasty. I'm trying to point out that the theology, the Bible quotes, the sermons, the actions DO NOT match what pastors actually do. Why are they not just trusting? Letting go and letting God? So, in my mind, prayer to God and trust in God is effective or it is not. They can't have it both ways.
Anon March 18, 2012 2:41 PM:
ReplyDeleteAmen, Amen, Amen.
(from www.dyingfordollars.com)
ReplyDeleteHere are some of our heroes salaries....they are really sacrificing for the Lord)
Billy Graham [Director and Chairman of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association (BGEA)] …
$406,830. (he can't work and is making over 400,000 ayear, what a shame)
William Franklin Graham III [as President and CEO of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association (BGEA)] ... $94,998.
William Franklin Graham III [as President and CEO of Samaritan's Purse] …$304,308
Total Package… $399,306. (only got the job because of his last name)
Richard E. Stearns [President of World Vision] … $366,892 in 2004.
Hank Hanegraaff [President of The Christian Research Institute (CRI)] … $210,192,
His wife Kathy Hanegraaff [Director of Planning The Christian Research Institute (CRI)] … $127,431
Total Package … $337,623. (heard him begging on the radio last week for more money for the ministry...I wonder why???)
Also, David Jeremiah and family makes almost $300,000 from Turning Point ministries according to charity navigator and that does not count his church salary.
The more you dig, the more it smells
What happened to faith?
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to engaging in the Word of God rather than engaging in the moneychangers?
What happened to trusting in God rather than trusting in man?
And when did Health and Wealth become Southern Baptist doctrine?
WD - do you post all of the TROLL's comments are just the dumbest ones?
ReplyDeletePlease don't be tempted to censor him. It is a powerful reminder of the ignorance, gullibility, and immaturity of the average pew-sitting man-worshipper.
He constantly steals sound bites from word and faith teachers and political liberals. Groups I am sure that he doesn't agree with.
But when you can't think for yourself, what other choice do you have?
"I gave cheerfully at FBC today"
ReplyDeleteNo you didn't. You gave to keep your money from being cursed. Even though that is not what the NT teaches.
God is going to get it from you one way or the other according to your pastor, right?
And you gave to get something in return, right?
"I give and then God gives to me."
Yes, there it is.
Straight from the teachings of the false Word of Faith movement.
The Yuppie Gospel.
"it was packed in the house this morning!"
ReplyDeleteAnd I'll bet that there were Mormon and JW churches that even more "in the house."
So, does that mean that they are right and you are wrong?
As a general rule, crowds tend to go in the opposite direction of truth.
"I tithe and my children are all on the honor roll."
ReplyDeleteI don't remember reading that promise in scripture. Could you reference it?
While you are looking, please also find the place that NT Christians are commanded to tithe at all.
Also when did the tithe change from 3 (in the OT) to 1 (in the NT)?
"I tithe and my tires on my car have lasted over 65,000 miles!"
ReplyDeleteSo, is the tithe like magic? Like rubbing a lamp and a genie appears and gives you 3 wishes?
If so, I think you might have made a mistake wasting one of your wishes on tires.
You should have asked for Apple stock.
"I work for Winn Dixie and have survived several layoffs because I tithe."
ReplyDelete"I tithe and I have not had a cavity in 6 years."
Again, I would have to conclude you were not very prudent in your magic wish choices.
"WAH! WAH! WAH! DONT TITHE or GIVE ANYTHING!"
ReplyDeleteImmature straw-man argument.
"shame on you that constantly criticise..."
Try taking your own advice TROLL.
I'm feeling called to be a mega-church pastor. I could even put up with anonymous bloggers for that amount of money.
ReplyDelete.It takes money to do ministry.
ReplyDeleteJesus said you go after fish and there will be money in their mouths.
Jesus talked more about money than any other subject.
Why don't you do some research and you will see that a rich guy donated Jesus a burial plot.
A rich guy gave so money to Jesus that Jesus needed a treasurer.
You don't need a treasurer if you are broke.
A rich guy gave Jesus a donkey to ride into town. Donkey's were expensive and most people had to walk. Donkey's were the "Lexus" of their day.
It would help you if you knew a little more...you wouldn't come across looking like a Christian Bill Maher.
March 18, 2012 7:50 AM
This comment has AMWAY written all over it.
Haggee got out of the non profit business because you have to report your income from it if you are an officer and it is public. Keep in mind, churches do NOT have to report salaries. It was more profitable to run it through the church.
ReplyDeleteRM
ReplyDeleteCan you imagine how unbelievers react to what's happening in our churches....Are we a light in the darkness for them? Do we think we can pull the wool over their eyes? And, if they watch Christian tv...can you imagine what they think when they see Benny Hinn, and the Mr. and Mrs. Paul Crouch and the others on TBN....There is no discernment among the faithful, so how do you think the people who are seeking truth to find it. We, who are supposed to plant the seed and let God do the saving are too busy beating each other over the head....How many in the churches today stand up and say enough? If you are a Christian with a pastor who preaches unbiblical facts and you sit there and do nothing...you are just as wicked as he is.
ReplyDeleteBefore I was giving my tithe:
ReplyDeleteI was living paycheck to paycheck
I waited until the due date of my bills before I paid them
Every single month I seemed to incur random expenses that consumed all my extra money and even pushed me more into debt
Always broke even on my tax return or owed money to the government
Bank fees: be they credit card over the limit, over-drawn checking account, late payments fees…you name it I paid it
A guilty conscience
A heavy heart
Now that I’m tithing, though no increase in salary this has been my experience:
I’m able to save at least $200 every month
I pay every bill the day it comes in the mail
Random expenses have not been a part of my life for the last few months
For the first time since we filed taxes Married Filing Jointly, my wife & I are receiving a sizable return of over $1,200
No more bank fees
A clear conscience and a happy countenance
A peace that passes all understanding – Philippians 4:7
"A clear conscience and a happy countenance"
ReplyDeleteThe OT Tithe was 23 1/3% - you are still cheating God out of 13 1/3%.
Your money is still cursed and you only think you have a clear conscience.
God is not mocked TROLL!!!!
"A peace that passes all understanding – Philippians 4:7"
Pay your debt TROLL!!!!
Do you remember what happened to Ananias and Saphira when they claimed to pay the whole when they only paid part of it?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Now that I’m tithing..."
So why are you anonymous?
"But whosoever shall deny me before men..." Matthew 10:33
"But whosoever shall deny me before men..." Matthew 10:33
ReplyDeletedeny jesus is not why people blog here, at least I think. They deny bad teaching.
I think I am less concerned about what Perry Noble and friends will teach at "Funded & Free" than I am with how many so called 'Pastors' will show up to take Noble's advice.
ReplyDeleteThe turnout at this event will speak volumes about the state of the church today.
How can I tithe when I can’t even pay my
ReplyDeletebills?
“The truth is, unless you tithe, you probably will
never be able to pay your bills.”
Can I be excused from tithing? I’m on a
fixed income.”
“No, in God’s mind, there’s no such thing as a fixed
income.”
Is it okay to tithe 1 percent or 5 percent? Do
I have to tithe 10 percent?
“The word ‘tithe’ means 10 percent, anything less is
not a tithe and does not fulfill the law.”
Can I tithe to a charity?
“Tithing is not charity…if you tithe to a need, you
create need in your life…you must tithe to abundance
to bring abundance into your life”
How do I overcome my fear of tithing?
“We move through fears by doing. Just tithe and I
promise you the windows of heaven are opening for
you.”
(Source: Edwene Gaines, “The 4 Spiritual Laws of Prosperity
Is it okay to tithe 1 percent or 5 percent? Do
ReplyDeleteI have to tithe 10 percent?
“The word ‘tithe’ means 10 percent, anything less is
not a tithe and does not fulfill the law.”
The OT law (which Jesus freed us from) taught 3 tithes for a total of near 25%. It was always paid in food - never money. And the poor received tithes - they didn't pay them.
Other than those tiny omissions, your information is correct.
The comments (and often the posts) of Christian discernment blogs too often become a breeding ground for "enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions," which are of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-20).
ReplyDeleteI ask you all, as a Christian brother, to stop the self-serving mockery and disrespect, and to instead "love your neighbor as yourself" (Gal. 5:14).
"The comments (and often the posts) of Christian discernment blogs too often become a breeding ground for "enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions," which are of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-20)."
ReplyDeleteHow is that different from what is being preached in the pulpit?
That sounds like a cop-out for not dealing with problems in the church to me.
How can I tithe when I can’t even pay my
ReplyDeletebills?
“The truth is, unless you tithe, you probably will
never be able to pay your bills.”
According to Barna, 98% of Christians don't tithe. So, you are saying that 98% of Christians can't pay their bills?
That's ridiculous and you know it.
In the OT, the poor received the tithe. They didn't pay it.
These preachers are teaching and practicing the seven deadly sins. I am afraid of them and for them.
ReplyDelete