Case in point: this past weekend Perry Noble used an important verse in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount and declared that it is about specifically about tithing.
Says Perry:
"When He says 'seek first'...Jesus is specifically talking about our finances. He is saying 'seek first, put God first'. People who say that tithing does not exist in the New Testament simply misunderstand this verse. Jesus is specifically referring to the tithe."
So darn it, Christians for centuries simply have misunderstood the Sermon on the Mount. Perry now helps us finally see the hidden message: Jesus wants us to tithe 10% to the church.
Perry continues:
"Jesus said 'seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness' and what's the rest of that verse say? 'And all these things' - all what things? Money, clothes, food. 'And all these things will be added to you.'"
Jesus' teaching to "seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness" was not a prescription for tithing so you can have your needs met. It had absolutely nothing to do with the Old Testament practice of tithing. One could better make the case that Jesus was referring to the practice of circumcision before claiming he was referring to the tithe! Jesus was teaching his followers to forsake the pursuit of temporal possessions on earth and replace those with pursuits of eternal significance - like those things Jesus prayed for in the model prayer earlier in Matthew 6.
But megachurch preachers can't preach what Jesus actually was saying, because they might have to lead the way in forsaking their enormous incomes and lavish lifestyles. So Perry just conveniently says Jesus was referring to the tithe.
But on the bright side, Perry gave the best advice I've heard from him, immediately following the Sermon on the Mount scripture twisting. Perry said:
"Close your eyes and run."
Yes, close your eyes and run away from Perry's church and his teachings on this subject.
"Close your eyes and run" was Perry's advice to blindly trust his scripture interpretation about the absolute necessity of Christians to tithe. Perry was telling his peeps that if you even the slightest inkling that you should not be tithing 10%, or that your circumstances dictate something less than that or even nothing at all - Perry says you should just blindly close your eyes, and run - that is start forking over the money and trust God to feed you and clothe you.
Sorry, Perry, we are not bound to Old Testament laws of tithing and sacrifices and circumcision to earn favor with God, or to receive blessings and provisions from God. It doesn't matter how you often try to say it or how much scripture you trample over to convince us; it just ain't so.
As we learned in E-church this weekend, from Wade's excellent sermon, Christians have the greatest law written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that directs our lives, even how and when we give our finances:
"For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” Heb 10: 14-16
So open your eyes and run, Christian, from this legalism taught by Perry Noble and others concerning your finances. Instead, follow the law of love, and give where, when, and to whom the Spirit leads you. And when you do give, be generous, and do it cheerfully.
And for sure, when a manipulative preacher tries to get you to give under compulsion:
Close your ears and run.
"Therefore those preachers of indulgences are in error, who say that by the pope’s indulgences a man is freed from every penalty, and saved;"
ReplyDeleteMartin Luther's Ninety-Five Theses. Thesis 21.
It is poor exegesis to make the sermon on the mount about tithing. It is good exegesis to make a point that the Sermon on the Mount is clear that God should get the first of all things in our daily lives. A surrendered life does not give God the left overs.
ReplyDeleteMany in the church do not give much because much has already been budgeted to something else. God gets, if any, leftovers.
Tithe or not tithe is a smokescreen to cover up giving God our best and our first.
Does God come after our car payment? Does God come after our vacation? Does God come after our children's private education?
Will we drive an older car so we do not have to be slave to the lender? Will we take less expensive vacations so we can do more for the Kingdom? Do our kids really need to be in private school?
Just some thoughts.
Well, maybe Perry is right partly. He starts off by reminding us that Jesus is talking to JEWS. So, if that's true, everything he says in that sermon would be directed to Jews. How would a Jew interpret "seek ye first the kingdom of God?" Maybe a Jew would take it to mean following all the commandments. (After all, elsewhere didn't a guy ask Jesus how to have eternal life, and Jesus said to follow all the commandments.) So one way of following the commandments for a Jew would be to tithe, right? So it seems Jesus is saying do not hold back the tithe, which is God's and quit worrying about your physical needs-getting those met goes along with tithing.
ReplyDeleteSo since modern Christians are not Jews, this has nothing to do with them. I think it can get pretty confusing if you start mixing in what Jesus said to Jews right in front of him with what Paul said later. Didn't Christians back then "have everything in common?" More like a commune, sharing everything with each other? Maybe Christians should look to that as their model instead of what Jesus was telling Jews.
Who are we to distrust the words of such a great theologian as Perry Noble?
ReplyDeleteThese Mega-Church preachers are starting to remind me of the word faith teachers.
ReplyDeleteThey will twist the most obscure scripture verse to force it to fit into their health/wealth doctrine.
Mega-church pastors are doing the same thing with the tithe.
sickening, watching and listening to that false teaching/teacher...
ReplyDeletePreaching tithing is like preaching any other law-binding issue. Grace has set up free! We now have the grace to give as we are able, not bound by a percentage. To those who truly love the Lord, the percent is not the issue.
ReplyDeleteBut to those who love the law, this teaching also gives freedom, freedom to do with the other 10% whatever you wish. Giving God 10% and keeping 90% is not God's plan for us.
Even though Jesus was speaking to the Jews, these words were recorded for us as well. To limit this context to money for either the Jew or us seriously diminishes His message, IMHO.
So open your eyes and run, Christian, from this legalism taught by Perry Noble and others concerning your finances. Instead, follow the law of love, and give where, when, and to whom the Spirit leads you. And when you do give, be generous, and do it cheerfully.
ReplyDeleteExactly. And if the church throws you out or you leave, don't let them still come after you. Don't allow it. Don't stand for it.
By chance do you have the link to the entire "sermon"? If I bring this up to someone I'd like to be able to say that I heard the whole thing. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteGod gives us the freedom to do with the 100% what we decide in our hearts to do. The 100% is ours. Thank you Jesus.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I understand that you are against tithing....and that the New Testament teaching on the subject are open to interpretation...but if we don't tithe, how will the church do the minstry that needs to be done...(Not talking about the Mega Church)Is the church to rely on the generosity of the attenders when only 10 to 20 percent of any given congregation give anything at all..just wondering????
ReplyDeleteThis overemphasis by Perry on tithing probably has much to do with economic circumstances in SC.
ReplyDeleteThe unemployment rate was 9.5% in December. I bet the rate of giving has been consistently going down. People in the pews, even if fully employed, can't help but be apprehensive about their job and that's probably being translated into less coin in the collection plate.
Still, Perry and Lucretia shouldn't have problems making the house payments on their $465,000; Lucretia's a doctor. Now, the staff of Newspring is another matter...
KarenM in NC
"Okay, I understand that you are against tithing....and that the New Testament teaching on the subject are open to interpretation...but if we don't tithe, how will the church do the minstry that needs to be done...(Not talking about the Mega Church)Is the church to rely on the generosity of the attenders when only 10 to 20 percent of any given congregation give anything at all..just wondering????"
ReplyDeleteIf the fact that the tithe is not theologically sound (the NT teaches us to give what each person has decided in their heart and not under compulsion) and (the OT says give 23 1/3% or you are under a curse) - do you see the contradiction there?
If that doesn't bother you, perhaps being pragmatic will. Preachers have been teaching the OT tithe for hundreds of years and the average church member gives 2 to 3 percent. So preaching the OT tithe isn't working.
John MacArthur says that his church is doing wonderfully well and he preaches NT grace giving.
MacArthur says that even if grace giving didn't work, he would still teach it because that is what the Bible teaches.
Perhaps they should follow his example (and Paul's).
Tithe or not tithe is a smokescreen to cover up giving God our best and our first.
ReplyDeleteDoes God come after our car payment? Does God come after our vacation? Does God come after our children's private education?
So tell me, WHAT does it really mean to PUT God first? And just exactly HOW do mere humans assume to accomplish such a task? While I think I understand WHAT we mean, by WHAT we say; yet I find it a bit ARROGANT to think that a mere human can PUT God anywhere, when in truth, he's already everywhere! Yet, some tend to piously speak of PUTTING God first, as if it's some great saintly act of humility on their part, and that which distinguishes them from their otherwise prodigal siblings: who dare not imagine OUR heavenly Father as anything less than ALL! In my opinion, it's not first place, amongst many other things that are second, third, fourth and so on in our lives, that OUR heavenly Father desires to be listed among; but rather, to be found in the hearts of his children to be their ALL in ALL: abiding in a place where NOTHING else compares, competes, or communes with his Spirit.
When God is our ALL, percentages find no opportunity to interfere with the JOY of giving our all graciously!
Grace & Peace - Elder gab
"but if we don't tithe, how will the church do the minstry that needs to be done"
ReplyDeleteSay instead, "but if we give to the church, how will the church do the minstry that needs to be done."
Tithing is a legalistic shackle that is not part of the new covenant. Perry Noble obviously doesn't know his Bible. He has had poor theological training and is using this ignorant false teaching to enslave his members.
"So tell me, WHAT does it really mean to PUT God first?"
ReplyDeleteIn Matthew 10:21, Jesus answers this question. He also clearly addresses this in Matthew 6:33.
"When God is our ALL, percentages find no opportunity to interfere with the JOY of giving our all graciously!"
Here is your problem in dealing with what I stated. I did not state anything to support percentage giving. I clearly stated God should get our first (off the top) and our best, not our left overs.
Be honest with the situation of giving in our church. Supporting the tithe is not the problem. Supporting grace giving is not the problem. The real problem is giving God less than our best and giving our leftovers after we spend what we have on what we want. To argue the other stuff is a smokescreen to avoid a discussion on the total lack of surrender among the people in the pews.
But, we like to debate and argue. Maybe it makes us feel important and smart. I wonder if in reality it makes us look silly, if not stupid, to a lost world?
Here's where the problem starts, way before we even get to the issue of what percentage, or whether the tithe of the OT has any relevance to the NT Christian:
ReplyDeleteNoble and most other professional evangelical pastors want Christians to think that "giving to God" is "giving to a 501(c)3 church". They are not the same! To obey Christ and do what he says is "putting God first in my finances" is not necessarily the same thing. I'm not saying it is not, but that it doesn't have to be.
The best example of this is the man that Wade mentioned in his sermon this past weekend at Wartburg's E-church. He came to Wade and said for a time he is going to have to suspend his giving to his church, Emmanuel Baptist. He and his wife are not well off financially, and the man's father is in desperate need of financial assistance. Did Wade condemn him and tell him that he would be cursing himself? Did Wade tell him he was obligated to give 10%? No, Wade said "Praise the Lord", as the man is following the greater command of love, loving his father during his time of need.
But that man is viewed as a threat to the church, greedy, cursed, etc. etc. by first-fruits tithing preachers.
That is how twisted the minds are of those who preach this nonsense of first fruit tithing over and over and over to their people.
"That is how twisted the minds are of those who preach this nonsense of first fruit tithing"
ReplyDeleteAgain, the issue for me is not the tithe (whether one does or does not). The issue is God being first in our giving.
If the man Wade spoke of is doing that, great. Not enough information is given to make such a claim. In that case, I would say from what has been shared here, is that man is putting his family's needs where they ought to be. I do know that many Christians get their needs confused with their wants. There are some good Christians who purchased more home than they could afford and now are losing them. They got their needs and wants confused.
The same case, I believe, could be made for what is given to the kingdom ministry within the church. Much is not being given because money is not there to give due to a needs vs. wants confusion.
Noble was wrong (I already stated that) but the picture is much bigger than you want to deal with. Yes, Noble needs to be told he is wrong but why so silent on the bigger picture of mishandling God's finances?
I believe I know.
Do these preachers pay a tithe on the value of thier housing that they don't pay taxes on?
ReplyDeleteAnon. 9:31 said:
ReplyDeleteDo these preachers pay a tithe on the value of thier housing that they don't pay taxes on?
In my case "Yes"!
Housing allowance is income.
ismenclsaffe Morons. This is the direction of SBC "scholarship." May God help them.
ReplyDelete“Is the church to rely on the generosity of the attenders when only 10 to 20 percent of any given congregation give anything at all..just wondering????”
ReplyDeleteCall me crazy but I think Christians are supposed to rely on faith.
I don't know about painting all MegaChurch pastors with the same brush, either. Maybe the ones in WF or prosperity just need to be called what they are... False teachers. They don't understand the gospel.
ReplyDeleteChris Rosebrough did an analysis of the Perry Noble secret tithing message, yesterday on his radio show. Go to the 30:00 minute mark of the show for the start.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely love the "Perry Noble Update Theme" that Chris plays before he does a piece on Perry Noble. It is "With a Flair", from the movie "Bed knobs and Broomsticks"
Here in part are the lyrics. These apply to many of the mega church pastors:
Oh, it really doesn’t matter what I do, what I do
As long as I do it with a flair
What effect a little smoke is with a dash of hocus pocus
And the scent of burning sulfur in the air
I’m a fraud, a hoke, a charlatan, a joke,
But they love me ... everywhere.
For it really doesn’t matter what I do, what I do
As long as I do it with a flair
And it really doesn’t matter what I say, what I say
As long as I say it with a flair!
First I rattle off a ready stock of gibberish and poppycock
and fix you with my best hypnotic stare.
With my moans and groans and soporific tones they have cheered me everywhere!
"Call me crazy but I think Christians are supposed to rely on faith."
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely and part of that faith is faith in God's people to support God's local church where He has placed them. A case can be made that when one church member gets their feelings hurt they stop giving and then they work to get others to stop their giving.
Faith in faithless Christians does not pay the water bill. But then we have many church members who are more like live in friends with benefits. Get what they can but invest little.
Seriously, is Noble on something?
ReplyDeleteHis eyes look like he is on some kind of meds.
What seminary did he graduate from?
He is quoting stuff like Kenneth Copeland!
“Faith in faithless Christians does not pay the water bill. But then we have many church members who are more like live in friends with benefits. Get what they can but invest little.”
ReplyDeleteIndeed, there are a few who could be called “faithless Christians” (a phrase that is contradictory.) However for each one of these there are many more who have suffered prolonged periods of unemployment or have to provide for their family or aged parents. Still others have been victimized and swindled by those who call themselves “believers.” How many more are in a financial crisis because of failing health?
Interesting that when Jesus met someone needing healing he never judged them or declared them unworthy but instead He met their needs and provided them with the healing they needed. How many churches and their members can say the same thing?
Also we are hardly talking about keeping the lights on or the water running are we? Forgive me if I feel less than impressed with the need to contribute to a church that has more than enough. Why do you want to give a wealthy man more money just to make him wealthier?
As for priorities, the church comes in fourth, behind a saving knowledge of Jesus, family, and others.
This video of PN on the tithe may be of interest:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mzQkHTG3iY
You will find the video embedded here
http://ronclick.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/february-28-part-two/
WOW! I am glad to see such passionate dicussion about a subject (Just not this subject). If only we were as passionate about the lost in our world! If you have a problem with tithing...then don't tithe! Usually the people who are the most opinionated about finances in the church are the ones who give nothing or very little to the church. Generous givers usually give without strings attached and trust God to take care of the rest.
ReplyDelete"Close your eyes and run."
ReplyDeleteYou know, even a blind man such as myself knows better than to run. I can't see what is up ahead. I could fall in a hole, hit a brick wall, etc., inflicting damage on myself.
So it is with many TITHER'S. They take a foolish chance that they will be blessed by God for obeying a command that was never given to them by God. And many are kept impoverished hoping one day the gravy train will stop at their front door.
I am reminded of Nadab and Abihu, who offered strange fire upon God's altar and died an offering that God never commanded.. The monetary tithe is also strange fire being offered... An offering that God never commanded.