Pat Robertson on the 700 Club recently answered an email question from a man who expressed frustration over his wife's objection to him tithing their income. The man says that his wife doesn't see how they can tithe when they can't make ends meet at the house.
What does Pat tell this guy? "Man up" he says and "You know 'big man', you are the boss". Pat basically tells this guy that he needs to be a leader, the "high priest" of his home and tithe anyways. I wonder if as the "high priest" he is going to be doing any animal sacrifices in the fireplace this weekend.
Excellent example of why Churchianity is headed in a downward spiral. Pat does not address even the remote possibility that the wife is expressing wisdom to the husband. Perhaps her husband was in one of the many churches last year at which Robert Morris' spoke about the requirement to fork over 10% of their income to prevent the "devourer" from bringing harm to his family. Maybe he worships at Bellevue Baptist Church and hears Steve Gaines accuse him of being a thief, or that God might kill them if they don't tithe.
Or could it be this family needs help from the church, and actually cannot afford to give 10% of their income to their church. Maybe the wife is right and the husband is a Kool Aid drinker. Pat doesn't consider this a possibility - no, the Golden Rule is "everyone must tithe to your church".
In Pat's comments you see the merging of two teachings in the modern church that are abused over and over again: above all else families must tithe to their church, no exceptions, no questions asked....and the man is to exert his leadership and domination over his wife, that he must "man up" and be the "high priest" - without the thought that his wife might be expressing wisdom on a particular issue.
Wives, if your preacher starts telling your husband that he must fork over 10% or more to keep the devourer away, or your preacher accuses you and your husband of being thieves for failing to give 10%, perhaps it is time for YOU to take the spiritual leadership in your house and start looking for another church home.
Remind him that while there were "high priests" in the Old Testament, there were also female prophetesses. Let him know you are the prophetess of your house, and you are "womaning up".
And then lead your family in a bible study about Deborah, the Judge from the Old Testament. She is described in Judges 4:4-5 as a "leader" (over men and women), and she was a prophetess who judged disputes fairly.
I think Pat cares more about following his interpretation of the Bible than he does some couple's relationship or their money issues.
ReplyDeleteIt's another example of some preacher's interpretation on whatever subject trumping everything else. Common sense, people's legitimate concerns, people's feelings, etc. don't matter. What matters above all is following the Bible and letting the pieces fall where they may.
"I wonder if as the "high priest" he is going to be doing any animal sacrifices in the fireplace this weekend."
ReplyDeleteThis made me "LOL."
"I wonder if as the "high priest" he is going to be doing any animal sacrifices in the fireplace this weekend."
ReplyDeleteLOL!
Is this the same Pat Robertson that is continually making silly statements that he is forced to apologize for later?
Like Jimmy Carter, it is time for Pat to GO!!
ReplyDeleteWhy the quotations around "leader" at the end?
ReplyDeleteGood grief.... :( Man up!! Just ignore the woman who's trying to "help" you!
ReplyDeleteAlways hypocrisy with these guys. Even if you were to point that out to them they would deny it. They are so blinded to it.
ReplyDeleteHa, had to laugh when he said that the husband is the "boss." So tired of this type of nonsense.
OMG! Pat's counsel is about as messy as the 'Cat In The Hat,' in a Dr. Seuss book. But, if memory serves me right, at least the Cat had SENSE enough to clean up: what he messed up, before mother returned!
ReplyDeleteMessy counsel, Pat Without Hat, just plain ole messy!
Grace & Peace - Elder gab
Who cares what this clown has to say about anything.
ReplyDeleteNow this really gives no credibility for the so called tithe. When you hear this type of nonsense find the exit and run, run, run.
ReplyDeleteI think most of these preachers and so called counselors (marriage or otherwise) should stay OUT of peoples marriages and personal business before they cause more divorces. After all God did create woman to HELP the man!!! Not the other way around.
ReplyDeleteI find more and more that many preachers are not qualified to counsel or advise anyone. Many have no spiritual discernment, don't know what the bible really says, they misuse scripture to their own advantage. They put Old Testament Law in the New Testament. They twist doctrine and generally make a mess out of ministry. I also wonder how many of the wives really run the ministry. Also before the "Boss" upsets "Mama" make sure he is ready to defend his position as "the Boss".
ReplyDeleteThis real issue here is not what is appears to be. The Bible does say that a Christian man is the head of his wife and that she must submit to him (Ephesians 5:22-23). But nowhere does the Bible ever say that Christians have an obligation to tithe. Instead Christians are to give what they can and what they want to give according to their own free will (II Corinthians 9:7), and then (I Corinthians 16:1-3) any money that is donated to a local church congregation is supposed to be turned over to the Church’s episcopacy who will distribute it. So any money that is paid to the Reverend Robertson isn’t Biblically meant for his use.
ReplyDeleteJosh - "leader" is in quotes because it is a direct quote from the bible. She is called a "leader".
ReplyDeleteNow Dog, don't go creating a doubt standard for yourself here. You want to claim the old testament passage in Judges 4:4-5 on Deborah yet want to ignore the old testament for tithing. Thus, if you are going to claim new testament for the way a Christian should give, I am going to hold you to using the new testament to describe the marriage relationship and the order of the household.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWho cares what this clown has to say about anything.
I care because what these authoritian leaders say effects my brothers and sisters in christ. They feed of their athority and are consumed by it leaving a bad name for those fleeing sin.
Darn, you busted me. I just can't seem to figure out this Old vs. New covenant thing. OT the tithe applies to crops and it is 23 1/3%, but NT is applies to my income and it is 10% given to my church which is like the temple. But Paul's admonition for women to be silent applies to all women in church (or does it?), but yet Deborah ruled over and led men in the OT.
ReplyDeleteI'm just not smart enough to figure it all out! I need a pastor to save me from my ignorance!!
I remember when God spoke to my heart and said, "Why is it that you think I'm running a protection racket?"
ReplyDeleteBut that's what this doctrine on tithing amounts to.
As far as the New Testament relationship and order of the household-- was Paul really writing a bunch of new, strict laws for Christians to keep? Was it really his intention to bind women even more strictly than they had been bound in the Old Covenant? Or was he speaking to a readership where the husband was already the absolute ruler of his wife, and telling the subordinate one to submit because it was the Christlike thing to do and she had no power to do otherwise anyway-- and then telling the one in power that he should imitate Christ in laying down his power and position, and raising up the subordinate one to share his glory?
It is for freedom that Christ set us free. I don't believe Paul intended to endorse the male rule of 1st-century Ephesus as God's permanent will, any more than he intended to endorse slavery as a permanent God-given institution.
As far as the New Testament relationship and order of the household-- was Paul really writing a bunch of new, strict laws for Christians to keep? Was it really his intention to bind women even more strictly than they had been bound in the Old Covenant? Or was he speaking to a readership where the husband was already the absolute ruler of his wife, and telling the subordinate one to submit because it was the Christlike thing to do and she had no power to do otherwise anyway-- and then telling the one in power that he should imitate Christ in laying down his power and position, and raising up the subordinate one to share his glory?
ReplyDeleteIt is for freedom that Christ set us free. I don't believe Paul intended to endorse the male rule of 1st-century Ephesus as God's permanent will, any more than he intended to endorse slavery as a permanent God-given institution.
The Bible is an ancient book. Paul's letters were written to an audience who lived very differently from modern people. Then modern Christians try to apply all these writings. It makes for a big mess.
Paul seems to advise accepting the roles you play, not rocking the boat. So he doesn't advise slaves or women to revolt. So those people like MLK, Jr. and those who helped women get voting rights were not agreeing with Paul's writings.
We do not live in the Middle East, and we do not live in the 1st Century. We also are not ancient Jews who had to tithe. We are living in the USA, have giant, wealthy churches which need money to pay a salary to the pastor and his staff and maintain fancy buildings. We obviously live in a very different world from the Bible world, and it's absurd to try to mesh them together-or pretend to.
Since a pastor's pay is somewhat related, I thought I might post this link to an article by a well known counselor, Jay Adams. Notice, he doesn't say anything about X% that needs to be given. I thought it was interesting and worth looking at.
ReplyDeleteWhat About a Minister’s Salary?
I'm thankful I'm married to a man who believes we are co-bosses in our household - we are tithers but in this case I believe because the bible says "owe no man" I would encourage we pray & pay off off our debts. A financial investment where the salaries & building gets the cream of the crop of the tithe is not good if your household continues to go into debt to support them.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I'm thankful to have a loving husband who knows I have financial sense and has never once in 51 years had to remind me he is the boss - because we work together we are tithers (& above) and debt free.
Thanks WD, for another interesting article!
"Paul seems to advise accepting the roles you play, not rocking the boat. So he doesn't advise slaves or women to revolt."
ReplyDeleteIndeed. That would have spelled death for the infant religious movement. The circumstances in MLK Jr's day were far, far different.
"Advise" is the key word. Paul was largely writing practical advice for how Christians were to get along in a hostile world-- not laws to be set in stone and followed to the letter for all time. I think Paul would dislike the very thought of such a thing. "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
Actually, I think Pat's partly right. I'd also say to this man, "Man Up!" Yes, he and his wife should realize they are in this together and have brains and have a common goal of what's good for their family. Pat's opinion has absolutely nothing to do with this man's family and what they do with their money. This poor man has been led to believe that it actually matters what Pat thinks. That is his mistake. The pastor is not in charge of your family. You and your wife are.
ReplyDeleteCan't speak for anyone else but I have learned from personal experience that if momma ain't happy ain't nobody happy.
ReplyDeleteWith regard to paying pastors, in a previous discussion someone pointed out that the phrase “double honor” actually means “double pay,” that is the pastor is actually to be paid double of the median wage. I do not have a problem with that because as if you actually run the numbers, then the Steve Gaines and the Mac Brunsons would still receive more than fair compensation but would be paid less than a third of what they are being paid now.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, though a husband does intercede this is actually blasphemy to assert the husband as the "high priest." Secondly he never clarifies that tithing is regulated to Israel and the Temple system alone. It is sad to see that there are tithe supracessionist these days. Again show me IN THE NEW TESTAMENT where this carries over. It was about tithing agriculture items. Oh by the way if you think I want to somehow hoard you don't know anything about me or who I give to. Just want to deal with exploiting dogma.
ReplyDeleteI think it's really pretty simple. If the guy had said, "We only have $10 to our name," I think Pat's answer would still be that he should tithe. Wouldn't Pat see it as you simply obey the Bible (Pat's interpretation of course)and God will take care of you? So the details of your situation are beside the point.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you hesitate to do this, Pat, as a millionaire businessman, will say you are disobeying God. And I doubt Pat sends money to the guy to help him out. He leaves the help up to God. Where's the compassion in all this?
Isn't it kinda like a landlord who is hard as nails, has no interest in your sad story? But yet, I'm sure Pat would claim to love you as a Christian brother.
It's crazy.
The new priest class are the bankers, the church gave up their position a priest a long time age, Pat is simple a businessman who wants to be in the priest class.
ReplyDeleteBut if the wife wanted to tithe and the man didn't, would Pat still tell the man that he was the boss? Or would the woman suddenly be the helpmate to guide the man to tithe?
ReplyDeleteShe would suddenly be the wise God fearing helpmate. Bottom line is always obey the Bible.
DeleteA man and a woman leave their father and mother and become ONE FLESH. One together in raising the family and caring for each other. What if the role was reversed and the woman wanted to tithe but the husband did not want to. Since he is the head would she be wrong in the question of the tithe? Just thinking.
ReplyDeleteI am still looking for the storehouse where all the first fruits are gathered. Can anyone advise me where I can go and visit and see those fruits? Thanks.
ReplyDeleteYou know currently in this economic climate many are financially ruined. 45 million on food stamps, millions more on unemployment compensation. Should they tithe and if so to what organization if they do not belong to a church (building). Please give chapter and verse,
ReplyDelete"Please give chapter and verse,"
ReplyDeleteModern people trying to apply what was written in ancient times and was written to ancient people-what other outcome could there be but confusion and arguing?
We apply modern science and common sense to every other area of our lives, then try to figure out what to do with a particular verse that Paul wrote to an ancient church.
Anon: You can't take easy way out..according to Pat she is to obey her husband.
ReplyDeleteI thought CBN had "fixed" the Pat Robertson problem about a month ago:
ReplyDeletePat Robertson Breaks His Silence
"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever" 1Tim5:8 - if you honestly can't afford it, don't be giving it to the church - someone who doesn't pay their bills or allows their kids to go w/o a much needed pair of shoes (read: falling apart and taped together) because they are tithing gives all Christians a bad name.
ReplyDelete