"Just from a business point of view, that's a good deal for 10%, to have God rebuking the devil for you....God is saying 'Listen, you're living in this cursed financial system, I would like to redeem your finances, protect your finances, from this world's system. The only way I can do it, though, is if you will recognize me first every time you get paid. If you will give me the tithe, I will redeem the rest of your finances out from under the curse.' " Robert Morris at Saddleback Church
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As we begin to look at "Slacking Shepherds", let's consider that a Southern Baptist Church mega church pastor, Rick Warren, has exposed his congregation to a man who preaches a false prosperity gospel that is non-biblical, and just plain stupid and nonsensical.--------------------------------------------------
Yes, thanks to Rick Warren, Pastor Robert Morris' heretical teachings on tithing and blessings and curses have now made inroads into the Southern Baptist Convention at Saddleback Church.
Robert preached the very same sermon at Saddleback that he preached at Perry Noble's NewSpring Church in May 2011, that I blogged about here. Robert Morris' sermon "The Principles of Multiplication" uses the story of Jesus feeding the multitudes from Luke 9 to tell Christians they need to "redeem" their income by giving their first 10% of their income to their church. Robert says you can actually buy God's protection for 10%, and calls it a "good business deal".
From the quote at the top of this post, you'll see that according to Robert, God's ability to bless you and protect you is dependent upon YOU being able to give 10% of your income! Yes, God is all-powerful, and he actually WANTS to protect you, but he absolutely cannot unless you give 10% of your money to a local church. If you can't give 10%, you're cursed and out from under God's protection.
And if you give your 10% to your church, Jesus is there to accept it, and will bless it. Robert says:
"Here's what the bible says: when you give the first 10%, the tithe of your income, to the church, Jesus himself receives our tithe and blesses it."
The Bible never, ever says that. Not even close. We all know that the ushers receive our offerings at the church, not Jesus. The counters count it, and the church leaders under the direction of the pastor spend it mostly on buildings and salaries. Jesus doesn't receive it, and those who do receive it don't spend it on what Jesus would have spent it on had he actually received it. Just trying to keep it real here, folks.
As I said, his message is non-biblical, he says the bible says what it does not say, and you have to check your brains at the church door to actually hear his teaching and not burst out laughing hysterically.
But we know what Robert teaches, he has taught it before.
The question before us is: why would Rick Warren, a Southern Baptist preacher, the godfather of the modern contemporary worship movement, invite this man in to preach this at his church?
Does Rick Warren believe this same doctrine? He can't say he didn't know that Morris was going to preach this, because this is the SAME sermon Morris preaches when out on the preaching circuit. Warren exposed his sheep to false financial teachings. Why? And if he doesn't believe it, shouldn't he publicly correct Robert Morris so his people aren't led astray? Isn't that the role, the job description, of a pastor in Titus?
Didn't Rick Warren know that Robert Morris earlier this year invited Creflo Dollar, the king of health and wealth prosperity false gospel, to preach in his church? That should tell you all you need to know about what Robert Morris believes.
Lastly, here is an advertisement at Warren's church on the website this week:
How sad that under the auspices of trying to help people with their finances in these difficult days, Rick Warren exposes people to the false teachings of Morris, that if implemented could spell financial disaster for a family. And guess who is next on the list, this coming Sunday in this financial series? Dave Ramsey. Placing Morris in the same lineup in a financial seminar as Dave Ramsey is like holding a "Secrets to a Happy Marriage" seminar with Liz Taylor and Laura Bush speaking. Does Dave Ramsey endorse the nonsense of Robert Morris? Why would Dave Ramsey want to associate himself with such financial nonsense as Robert Morris'? We know the answers to all of these questions, don't we?Watch out, church members. Investigate who it is that your pastor is inviting in to speak at your church.
The wolves may be at the door, waiting to come in, with no shepherd willing to protect the flock.
68 comments:
There is SO much to comment on...but I'll simply address the Malachi passage. Yes, Malachi 3:9 says "You are under a curse..." But what curse? In context, the curse is handed down by GOD, in chapter 2:1,2 and is a curse upon the priests because they have not honored GOD! End of verse 2 in chapter 2, "I have already cursed them (the blessings) because you (the priests) have not set your heart to honor me."
Sounds like GOD is displeased more with the church authorities, than the people in the pew.
Robert Morris is an incredible speaker and tremendous man of God. Because you don't like what he says, you bash him. Do I agree with everything he says? Nope. But that doesn't call for your type of behavior.
You might also want to realize, at some point, that there is a little thing called interpretation of Scripture that has to be applied in today's world. Read up on it. It'll do you some good.
Anon -
I'm assuming your comments are directed at FBCJax, not me since you didn't address me - but I will weigh in on it nonetheless.
Yes, we do need to apply God's Word to today's times, but we do not interpret it in today's times. A key principle of good hermeneutics is realizing there is only one interpretation of scripture. There can be many applications, but there is only one interpretation. Herein lies the problem with teachings like the one referenced...when a person says "The Bible says...", he/she is stating the interpretation. In the Malachi passage for example, God does not promise to rebuke the devil as a response for faithful tithing - He instead says He will prevent pests from devouring the crops. That is a far cry from what Morris is stating as "interpretation".
Additionally, the Hebrews 7 reference that Jesus "accepts" our tithe is poor hermeneutics as well. Nowhere in Hebrews 7 does it say anything like that. Instead, it sets up a comparison between Melchizedek and Jesus, and portrays Jesus as being "like" Melchizedek, but greater. To say that Jesus receives tithes like Melchizedek is poor interpretation. IF we were going to use Hebrews 7 in this manner, it would change the way we tithe as Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek was partially all the goods and possessions (even people) from his victory over other kings. We see this in verse 21 of Genesis 14 where Melchizedek bargains for the people instead of the goods.
Using Hebrews 7 in the manner Morris teaches, I should be looting and pillaging my neighborhood and offering that to Jesus - sarcastic, poor hermeneutics as you see.
"you bash him."
Huh? Where's the bashing? Did I misread this? Is there an ad-hom in there that I didn't see?
I really don't mind listening to someone that I disagree with.
So Robert Morris is wrong?
SO?
I can discern it...I can recognize it...
You underestimate us.
You feel like YOU must protect us.
I have the Holy Spirit in me...
I'll be just fine, thank you
How in the world do we know if a speaker is "a tremendous man of God?" We frequently label pastors and authors and church leaders as such, but unless we know them personally, we really can't say that with much authority.
WD,
I think you're doing a good thing here, exposing these speakers.
I'm not familiar with this particular guy, but he's obviously a very good salesman. He's no different than a really good insurance salesman or the guy that's trying to get you to buy knives at the fair that will cut and dice everything in the world.
Those on the outside, and more and more of those on the inside of Christianity, can see him for what he is. People are just more informed these days. They have the Internet. They aren't so easily fooled.
Dave Ramsey's quite entertaining and a great salesman-look where it got him. Great salesmen become very wealthy. And much of what he says can definitely help people. It's the linking it up with God and the Bible and tithing, etc. that I question. If he left off those things, he'd still have a good message, but wouldn't have access to the same huge audiences. He must at least give lip service to the God part to get people's ear in all those congregations that he's making money off of.
I'm actually very heartened to see a website like yours where a Christian is pointing out how this guy is speaking for God and telling people what God wants, what he is and isn't going to do, based on what they do with their money. It's such bullsh*t! But the problem is, there are so many people who grew up like me, steeped in the Bible; they are PRIMED to buy into this stuff. The foundation for it has already been laid with all the zillions of sermons they've taken in in their lifetimes.
What are you going to do if you have been one of the anti-tithing crowd and get to the Judgment Seat and find out you were wrong all the time? There are plenty of good, Godly pastors who know much more than you ever will, who believe and teach tithing. You might want to get on board the right ship.
This anti-tithing doctrine has just come to the forefront lately by a bunch of people who don't tithe. It will soon fade away.
Jesus paid the temple tax ( he pulled it out of the fish) but he never tithed.
In the OT we are told what the Temple Tax was for-
Nehemiah 10
32“We assume the responsibility for carrying out the commands to give a third of a shekel a each year for the service of the house of our God:.....for all the duties of the house of our God."
The tithe was given only in Jerusalem for major festivals. It was only given by farmers.
If you want to bring the OT laws into the New Covenent then the 1/3 of a shekel per year is what people should be giving for the operations of their local church. 1/3 of a shekel equates to about $50-100 in todays money per year!!!!
God is not a poker machine you put quarters in with a guaranteed return. Good site and info!!!
He should have invited Robert Tilton instead of Robert Morris. Morris's message is just recycled Tilton. But, Tilton is much more entertaining.
Rick Warren exposes.....
Is it "wrong" to "expose" people to different points of view?
Are we so "stupid" that we cannot discern for ourselves.
I am not a Calvinist but I enjoy listening to their point of view.
I am not a Charismatic but I can learn from them.
I do not agree with Robert Morris's view of tithing but some of what he says I can use and apply to other areas of my life.
I am a big boy...I can listen to Fox News and MSNBC and make up my own mind.
I don't agree with my Pastor on everything....but I love him!!
It's not about "anti-tithing"...it's about teaching tithing the correct, biblical way, especially as it looks under the New Covenant in Christ.
I teach tithing at my church - but I teach it under the bigger umbrella of Stewardship. Giving 10%, while spending the other 90% foolishly doesn't appear to be godly either. Grace teaches us to be generous givers, and to put ourselves in better position to go beyond 10%...under the Holy Spirit's lead, not the compulsion of man.
It’s obvious why Rick Warren has invited a heretical teacher to speak.
Quote: “The second covenant Warren’s church members sign (from class 201) includes tithing. 12 He has them sign a card they will carry: “The signed covenant cards are collected, I sign them as a witness, we laminate them, and then they are returned so people can carry them in their wallets.”13 There is a picture of one of these in his book.14 One side of the card includes: “My 1992 Growth Covenant,” “A weekly tithe to God,” and “Giving the first 10% of my income.” But tithing is not binding under the New Covenant. By requiring people to enter into a binding covenant to tithe to the church, Rick Warren is practicing false binding and has made himself a lawgiver.”
Question: What is a “reverse tithe”? In this video and transcript, Rick Warren twists Psalm 72 and applies it to himself, selectively of course. Psalm 72 is a Messianic Psalm and some say it was written by David and not Solomon. Why doesn’t Rick Warren apply the whole of Psalm 72 to himself? The parts about “may they fear you,” “bowing down before you,” “falling down,” and so forth?
Rick Warren has been teaching legalistic falsehood regarding tithing (among other teachings) for a long time. Oh? He “reverse tithes” 90% ooopppsss I mean 91% now so he is not being legalistic, he’s been very generous. Rick Warren does not reverse tithe or tithe, at all. Tithing is a practice under the law and it wasn’t wages, income or salary earned . Rick Warren boasts before the whole world about what he and his church does.
This radio series Redefining Christianity – Understang the Purpose Driven Movement clearly shows how Rick Warren has redefined Christianity.
"Because Saddleback is a young church and I am the founding pastor, we've been able to experiment with far more ideas than the average church-mostly due to the fact that we didn't have decades of tradition to deal with. (However we had many other problems that older churches don't have!) In the early years we had nothing to lose, so we tried all kinds of ideas. Some of our ideas were spectacular failures. And I wish I could claim that all our successes happened just the way we planned them-but it would be untrue. I'm not that smart. Most of our successes have been the result of trial and error and some of our discoveries were purely accidental.
One of my favorite movies is Raiders of the Lost Ark. At one cliff-hanging point in the story someone asks Indiana Jones, "What are we going to do now?" Jones replies, "How do I know? I'm making it up as we go along!" I have felt like that many many times as pastor at Saddleback. We'd make up something and if it worked, we'd pretend as though we'd planed it all along!
Mark Twain once said dryly, "I knew man who grabbed a cat by the tail and learned forty percent more about cats than the man who didn't." We've been grabbing a cat by the tail since the beginning at Saddleback Church-and we have the cuts and scars to prove it.
The truth is, we've tried more things that didn't work at Saddleback than did. We've never been afraid of failure; we just call everything an "experiment." I could fill another book with stories of our failures and call it A 1000 Ways To NOT Grow a Church!" - pages 28-29 The Purpose Driven Church by Rick Warren
I wonder when the “1000 Ways to NOT Grow a Church” will be available? Just experiment with thousands of different ways until you get it right. Whatever works for you. Be pragmatic. Methods don’t matter, they are neutral. Try Hula Dancing, that’ll work. Get 1000 different “tithing” teachers to come and speak, you’re sure to hit the jackpot sooner or later. The ‘tithing’ envelopes will be bursting at the seams...
I think this guy is trying to sell his book. He was on the James Robison please buy my book show today. Of course Robison will have anybody on if he can make a fast buck. His buddy Creflo give me your dollars is a regular.
Mean ol' Rick Warren exposes his "people" to Robert Morris.
Dog, do you think we are all that stupid?
I don't agree with John Piper but I am not afraid of being "exposed" to him.
Rick Warren does not have the measles.
We are adults, we can handle someone we don't agree with....take a deep breath!
Pastor Morris is way off base on Tithing...but has also seen Thousands of people come to faith in Jesus Christ.
He's not all bad.....
Nice try, comparing someone's reformed thinking, to a guy who stands in the pulpit telling fairy tales, claiming to speak what God says when God says nothing of the sort - all in an attempt to get people to separate from their money.
This is not too far away from fraud or swindling. He is promising that their money will be "devoured" by the devil, unless they give 10% of their paycheck to a church, in which case God "rebukes" the devil, thereby saving their money.
It is poppycock.
I use the word "expose" because it is a false teaching, and he came in to the church specifically as part of a financial sermon series.
Welcome to the new Southern Baptist Convention...only one step away from Creflo Dollar.
FBC Watchdog, what would the church look like where you pastor? I mean since you know the Scriptures so well and have this gift to defend the poor and needy, why don't you declare that you are the Messiah? You might have a little credibility if your agenda where not so clear. I would be careful about warning people since you have made yourself a bigger target of criticism and examination, much like what you give these pastors. Wonder how you would stand up to a little closer look at your personal life?
Can't you just feel the love from these Christians? They can't address the topic, have to make the blogger the issue. Wonderful. Christianity is in such a sad state, and your posts here just confirm it.
WD, I hate to string verses together outside of their context, but...here goes: What would Paul, "the apostle to the Gentiles" (Rom.11:13) have to say about this type of doctrine? I believe he might remind the church of a few things that he said years ago:
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Acts 20:29
As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 1 Tim.1:3...
From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 1 Tim.1:6
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 1 Tim. 1:7
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Gal.3:10
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree: Gal.3:13
I wonder who is truly under "the curse," is it the tither who tithes, yet rejects circumcision, animal sacrifices, and all of the other commands of the law? Or, the non-tither who has put his faith completely in the finished work of Jesus Christ: and yet gives generously, regularly, and cheerfully in support of the work of the Lord?
Grace & Peace - Elder gab
Annonymous said: "How in the world do we know if a speaker is "a tremendous man of God?" We frequently label pastors and authors and church leaders as such, but unless we know them personally, we really can't say that with much authority."
My husband and i have known a few of the "big names" personally, and Annonymous here is SPOT ON! I'll never get how people can give them such accolades, without knowing them personally, or even knowing someone that does.
"What are you going to do if you have been one of the anti-tithing crowd and get to the Judgment Seat and find out you were wrong all the time? There are plenty of good, Godly pastors who know much more than you ever will, who believe and teach tithing. You might want to get on board the right ship."
What are you going to do if you have been one of the tithing crowd and get to the Judgment Seat and find out you were wrong all the time? There are plenty of good, Godly pastors who know much more than you ever will, who believe and teach grace giving. You might want to get on board the right ship.
That sword cuts two ways doesn't it? And your point is moot until one of your tithing pastors can answer the question why there were 3 tithes in the OT and you only preach one for today.
"This anti-tithing doctrine has just come to the forefront lately by a bunch of people who don't tithe. It will soon fade away."
Actually the NT church didn't tithe for the first 700 years of its existence. The NT tithing principle was borrowed from 8th century pagan land lease practices of the time.
According to Barna, 95% of Christians don't tithe although most claim to believe in it.
The truth will never fade away.
Anon - absolutely.
While tithing has been preached for some time, most pastors have preached it as a guideline. It is only recently that mainstream evangelicals have started to use it to threaten people with calamity and God's curses on their finances and even their country's economy, unless they fork over 10% to their nearest 501(c)3 religious institution.
Now we have this charleton who is actually saying that God's blessings or curses, whether your income gets "multiplied" or "divided" depends on YOU forking over 10% directly to the church, and that Jesus is there to receive it from you, and will bless it. That is such absolute poppycock, it is laughable.
THAT is new. And it spells trouble two ways for the church.
First, it is a merging of the health and wealth, name and claim false prosperity gospel preached by Creflo Dollar and his ilk, with mainstrain evangelicalism. Used to be Southern Baptist was a "brand" that people knew they wouldn't be subjected to the crap that televangelists put out on the airways. Not so. We now have it in Rick Warren's church. As I've said, even Gaines and Brunson and Young have brought their version of this into their churches. People will hear essentially the same financial teachings on TBN from Dollar and T.D. Jakes, as they do in their local mega evangelical church.
Secondly, probably the worst problem is this: any person considering the claims of Christ if exposed to this teaching, will come to the conclusion that Christians are stupid, that you have to believe some magical formula of 10% = God's protection, and thus reject the gospel. It is a pervesion of the gospel message. And it is just plain stupid, not supported by any real evidence in the real world. Christians and non-Christians experience both financial blessings and failings, has nothing to do whatsoever with God cursing someone who doesn't tithe.
I imagine that the vast majority of you never tithe (or have ever tithed) so why are you getting to bent out of shape?
Oh, I forgot--you have appointed yourselves as the guardians of all truth.
What a sad joke.
"Oh, I forgot--you have appointed yourselves as the guardians of all truth."
"What a sad joke."
It is sad (but not funny) when Christians put tradition above proper exegesis. The truth will set you free brother. By the way, we are commanded to find it for ourselves through scripture.
WD, you are absolutely spot-on with regard to this poison infiltrating what we once would have called "sound" churches. I am a member of what I considered a leading, missionary-minded, doctrinally sound (i.e. calvinist :) ) SBC church...but it was not long before we were hearing the "God will bless you in proportion to your tithe" stuff even there....
I'm tellin' ya, bro Money Rule$...it's the $BC (and not restricted to SBC or it would be easy to escape)
I cannot even start on these anonymous morons who think Brunson and Warren should bring in every wind of doctrine so we can hear it and make up our own mind!...waiting with bated breath for the JWs Mormons Wiccans to be featured...maybe a nice Muslim or two?
Old Baptist...you mention JWs and Mormons...closer than you think. Brunson brings in pseudo-historian David Barton to preach on 9/11....Barton is on the record that Mormon Glenn Beck is a true believer, and that the label of Mormon doesn't mean anything.
Mega churches are going off the deep end as they try to expand their "market" to maintain the revenue streams needed to support their business.
This is why Rick Warren is having Robert Morris to speak-
Since Jesus spoke so much more about fasting I wonder why no megachurch leader doesn't have someone in for a 3month fasting challenge???? I think you all know the reason. $$$$$$$$$
FBC Watchdog you are the one who is setting himself as God's "watchdog," so I will ask you what you ask us, "where is your love?" Furthermore, where is your respect for men who have given their lives to spread the gospel? I wonder what you have sacrificed to see the church move forward? You move your agenda forward via the keyboard so if you are looking for love, friend, then maybe look back at the reflection from your screen and ask yourself "who do you love?"
Ok, Unlike a lot of the commentators here, I have actually gone to this church.
Robert Morris walks around in the lobby of his $100 million palace flanked by two bodyguards as if he's afraid of the very people he's preaching to about giving him 10 percent of their money.
His church, located in Southlake, the richest community in the country, does NO community outreach. Every time gift cards for single moms and others are requested, the members are asked to foot the bill. Members form their little "groups" that are expected to knit sweaters or give blankets for the homeless. The church discloses no financial figures about its community outreach (because it doesn't do any). In fact, it doesn't disclose anything else under its budget.
The money goes to their salaries and the salaries of their many family and friends they have put on staff. They actually believe their delusion that God provides their cushy lifestyles when it actually is paid for in cash by the church members.
Instead of treating disheartened people with love or providing real financial coaching in some cases, Gateway Church puts them in a tithing class and tells them they will stay right where they're at, unless they start giving 10 percent of their income.
The head of their benevolence/pastoral care program hides behind her two heartless assistants after scripting them on how to browbeat people.
I was deeply disturbed after seeing the curriculum this heartless witch put together for the "tithing class" recruits. These were people who have had major surgeries, were nearly beaten senseless by an abusive spouse, lost jobs, ect. It was the most manipulative piece of trash I've ever seen.
A friend of a friend was told, "You'll never get anywhere (word cursing) and you're going to stay right where you're at until you start giving 10 percent."
If you want to exalt this so-called man of God, you better look at how him and his church treats the disadvantaged and where they spend their money -- on themselves. Their idea of spreading the gospel is having you bring a friend in to get them indoctrinated into tithing.
This cadre of money-worshipers are about as arrogant, selfish and uncaring as they come.
This entire blog isn't about bashing. It's about attempting to enlighten people about the motivations behind many of these churches.
I don't believe being a pastor is about being a celebrity or tweeting on your latest book. It's about caring for the people entrusted to you and this church is not of that mindset - unless you've got a very fat bank account.
@David--you forgot your mantra: touch not God's anointed....the mantra of koolaid drinkers everywhere...(say 15 "judge nots" and put an extra nickel in the plate for your penance)
I know Robert Morris personally and he is the most giving human being I have ever met. I don't really know him personally but he talks about himself so much during his sermons that I really feel like I know him.
He only asks people to give because it is best for them.
I have heard him say that he is a triple crown winner...he tithes 30%!!
Our Church does so much for our community and our building is absolutely glorifying to God as well...the Temple was the best building in town in the OT and Pastor Morris said that we should have the nicest place in town for God.
I am grateful that Jesus led me to Pastor Morris and I do tithe just like he taught us to do.
I got a promotion at work and moved into a condo...His favor is on me!
Anonymous said "I know Robert Morris personally and he is the most giving human being I have ever met. I don't really know him personally but he talks about himself so much during his sermons that I really feel like I know him."
Which one is it?
And why is a pastor talking about himself so often in his sermons?
@Anon 10:15--good word! I'd never heard of Morris or his "church"--there are too many to keep up with. Happy to see you have first-hand experience and can see through the $ham.
Anon 10:29 says: "I am grateful that Jesus led me to Pastor Morris and I do tithe just like he taught us to do. I got a promotion at work and moved into a condo...His favor is on me!"
That's pathetic and disheartening....and ubiquitous in these so-called "churches" People seriously think that a fancy house and job promotions are earned from God by their tithing.....Let me leave you with a bit of the Truth: "...people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. Now there is great gain in godliness with contentment, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction." (1 Timothy 6:5-9)
LOL!!!! @ anon 10:29 PM
"I got a promotion at work and moved into a condo...His favor is on me!"
Thank you for proving my point. Yep, you are a card-carrying member of Gateway Church in Southlake, TX.
You showed zero concern over the issue I was addressing about how hurting people are treated and instead began trumpeting about material things.
All you people talk about is how God's goodness is manifested through money. Then you go around trying to use that to elevate yourselves to some sort of higher spirituality based on temperal things.
Those of us who love God for who He is are saddened by your definition of His love.
Your trivilaize Jesus' death on the cross through your prosperity gospels, your worship of money and last but not least, your spirit of religion and total lack of caring about others.
Come on, folks. Don't you recognize 10:29 as the resident FBC Jax Watchdog troll? He has claimed to be a member of FBC Jax and most of the other churches mentioned here. Stop feeding it and it will eventually get bored and go away. As long as you continue to feed it, it's only going to get worse.
my one complaint against WD is his allowing anonymous postings...No, I cannot tell him from 98 other anonymous posters apart from the fact that occasionally "anon" makes sense so it must not be the one to which you refer. WD needs to label his anon crowd for those of us who don't live here. :)
Oh, "New BBC....." nice! I see you are aware of the problem and deal with it on your blog.....So don't come on here and act oblivious....
Hey, leave my trolls alone! :)
It is not easy being a watchdog blogger. All the complaints I get. People attacking me. It is how I know I am on the right track, when people attack me and criticize me. Stop complaining against "God's man", will ya?
:)
".....a dog is known by the trolls he attracts" (Shakespeare)
Oh, "New BBC....." nice! I see you are aware of the problem and deal with it on your blog.....So don't come on here and act oblivious....
Care to explain what you're talking about? What are you accusing me of acting oblivious about?
OB,
Let me help you.
September 29th - 1:52 PM, 5:27 PM, 9:43 PM
September 30th - 10:29 PM
The FBC Jax Watchdog resident troll.
To tell people to ignore the trolls and to tell which posts are trolls, is to NOT ignore the trolls.
:)
I dunno, guys.
I think the alleged troll was a Robert "Moonie" unless what he/she wrote can simply apply to all megachurches.
It probably can.
I guess Saddleback is hurting, and it was time to bring in the hired guns. Very sad.
To tell people to ignore the trolls and to tell which posts are trolls, is to NOT ignore the trolls.
Ignore, as in not to respond to. Doesn't mean I don't notice them. I just don't respond to them. I can't tell anyone what to do. It was a suggestion based upon known troll behavior which some people seem to have trouble recognizing.
New BBB sez "What are you accusing me of acting oblivious about?"
Confucius sez: He that is oblivious and knows not that he is oblivious, he is beyond help, ignore him"
:)
OB,
I don't know what your problem with me is, but whatever. Have a nice day.
OT question.
I noticed that at least two commenters mentioned about tithing and the final judgement. Can you please explain what you expect then?
Will the person with the wrong theology be denied heaven or just have a lesser reward or place in heaven? If there is another option, please suggest that.
Thanks.
Hey, Old Baptist. How is it that you using Scripture is validated, yet what a pastor says is not validated? Interesting, very interesting. All I can say is that I thank God you are not in my church, kind sir.
I left Gateway church because of the Blessed Life and the preposterous teachings of Robert Morris. A friend told me he was at it again last weekend preaching curses and calamity from Malachi 3 unless we drop in the first 10%. This time though, he spent a lot of time being very defensive about what he was preaching. Couldn't get out of there fast enough and don't intend to go back.
Wow....it's very sad that you post comments concerning things you know nothing about. Taking things out of context and witch-hunting when you should be spending more time on reaching the lost. I have gone to Gateway Church for 8 years and have seen first hand how God has blessed our church because we have learned the principal of tithing, which IS biblical. It's our first fruits. Gateway church does not pass an offering plate....never has and never will. The offering boxes are in the back so that those that want to give, do it of free will. We do not accept credit cards for tithes and offering because of Pastor Robert's conviction on debt and those who are vulnerable to get in debt by tithing on a credit card. That's more than I can say for alot of churches. We help people get out of debt....we are a generous church that gives more to missions and other outreaches to help people. I know this FIRSTHAND so please be careful when you speak ugly words about a Pastor that is anointed and a church that is blessed and growing when you are removed from the situation and have no idea what goes on at Gateway. I think the fact that we have grown from 100 to 30,000 people in 10 years and have seen thousands of people's lives changed and saved shows where our priorities are. We are a giving church with a Pastor who is not pretentious in any way, shape or form. Get your facts straight please and stop spreading false statements about a Pastor who reads and studies the Word and is a powerful communicator.
It's so sad that so many Christians would rather spend their time and energy finding faults with their brothers, and esp. when most of us will be IN HEAVEN TOGETHER one day. If you're not praying for the minister or the person you're slandering or "exposing" then you're not helping the cause. You have a personal agenda that doesn't bring God any glory. If you can't pray for the person in question and you're not praying for God's guidance in the matter, then whose side are you on?
If anyone believes that eternal judgment is in any way dependent on whether you gave money to a church, then you cannot call yourself a Christian, plain and simple. First of all, the only reference to tithing is in the OLD Testament, which also contains anti-Christian message advocating misogyny, slavery, and requiring circumcision, keeping kosher, making sacrificial offerings when a child is born and becomes 1 year old, and many other things we never claim to be part of Christianity. Further, Jesus fulfilled the old Law and became the New Law, so the reference to tithing is again rendered moot.
First off I want to commend Dr. Tim and gatewaymember for taking a stand for righteousness. I have been a member of Gateway for abut 4 years, and all I can say that even though it was a tough decision to leave my old church and go to Gateway, for me it was definitely the right decision. Pastor Robert is the right pastor for Gateway, and everything he preaches on (including tithing) he preaches with a humble heart. He wants to see the lost saved (which we all should be doing, hey it's our job to do so before Christ returns). Honestly he doesn't have time at all to bicker and find fault towards other believers. One rule he teaches is that we should NEVER ever talk with negativity toward other churches or pastors, even if we don't agree with them. I thank the Lord for a pastor like Robert Morris and his family.
Mal. 3:8-9
Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say "In what way have we robbed You?" In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse, for you have robbed Me, even this whole nation.
Romans 11:16
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
You know you have ADD when...someone asks you how old you are and you can't remember, so you figure it out by subtracting your birth year from the current year, but you have to ask what year it is first.
Proverbs 3:9-10
Honor the LORD with your possessions, and with the firstfruits of all your increase; so your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will overflow with new wine.
Mal. 3:10
"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have enough room for it".
That ADD joke in the middle was an accidental paste...sorry!
Forget Malachi Totally
The ENTIRE word of G-d from beginning to end deals in G-d insisting on the first fruits of everything we get.
THEN, He says that the first fruits redeems (purifies) the rest.
He is G-d and changes not- so why would He say that when we honor Him with the first fruits the rest is blessed if He changed His mind in the new covenent.
You are just looking for loop holes -just like shady lawyers, because you do not want to be obligated to give G-d His portion.
Your entire page reeks of evil. You can feel it when you first show up here. THere is a spirit of rebellion, a spirit of dishonor, a spirit of covetousness, and hate and resentment here.
You take scripture out of context and use it to crusify another believer-which is forbidden.
Romans 11:16
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Proverbs 3:9-10
Honor the LORD with your possessions, and with the firstfruits of all your increase; so your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will overflow with new wine.
I have to get off of this page and go and wash my eyes and renew my heart.
I will pray for you and while I have my doubts, I will be hopeful that you will repent
What gets me is that none of these wealthy pastors preach about what Jesus says about the wealthy in Matthew 19:23-24
"Then Jesus said to His disciples, 'Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
The false doctrines Southern Baptists believe in, the heresy of once saved always saved, the gifts of the Holy Spirit passed away with the apostles, the coming of the Lord before the Beast wars against the saints during the great tribulation, are deceiving more professing Christ than the heretical prosperity gospel...
I've tithed to a church that told us we were "stealing from God" if we didn't tithe, even though many of us were struggling financially. Being a new Christian I believed what they were saying and then the more I kept reading the word, the more I started seeing through their false teaching. At first it was mixed in with truth so it was hard to decipher. They didn't have a church building and the only people who seemed to be prospering were the staff and they offered only one budget snapshot in the three years I was there. They also told me more than one time not to ask too many questions. There were many more things that were revealed to me, so I ran as quickly as I could–and the word calls us to do that. I'm grateful that as I've matured in Christ I've realized everything we do (beyond just our finances) God wants to be a part of so if we are called to have a personal relationship with Christ than it is our duty to ask Him what He wants us to do with our money. I should note that in those years I was at the church there was a year that I believe I heard in prayer from God to tithe 10%. I believe sometimes we need to learn the law before we can find grace. As I get my financial life back in order, I hope to be able to fund those efforts that God is calling to me. Remember to always go to Him and seek his counsel first before seeking man's advice.
Thanks for standing for truth, most importantly for bringing scripture into the debate, and they who hold not to sound doctrine will continue to verse pluck and twist scripture to their own destruction (having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.) What gets me is people do not read that the posts disputing and exposing pick purse theology are actually saying give to those in need and to those who are hurt, most charitable organization's do not pass on much more than 5 percent of the funds given to them, they live a life of luxury when those in need wait humbly for breadcrumbs falling from there table. Oh their judgement will be most awful if they do not repent. The Scriptures mention widows and orphans who are suffering and how the religious leaders take advantage of them instead of helping them. These wolves have the same Spirit they feed their bellies while fatherless children are overlooked until they are an asset to the building of their kingdom. Matthew 23:14 "Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye devour widows houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."
If they cared about the people in need they would say give to those who have need as in the assembly in Acts. They had true charity, not a glorious man made cathedral but a bride adorned with a white garment which are the righteous acts of the saints done by HIS Spirit in Truth.
Watcher, be careful, I believe these blogs have hired watchdogs to discredit Truth, to assassinate your character even without knowing you, he talks about your personal life, from what I read you were not attacking him personally but his message, he is good at what he does this David, he has all the tricks up his sleeve to take out any dissenters with swiftness and deadly accuracy, remember pray for him and that the spirit behind him is bound, because his fruit is not good, he is protecting false doctrine in a horrible manner. Have you heard of the society of Jesus? Study them, his tactics(David) remind me of the Jesuits.
Thankyou for sharing this information, I listened to his Jebel Spirit sermon, not all of it because what he said about Jonathan disturbed me greatly. He makes some valid points but I believe he is deceived by another spirit. The fruit reveals the tree. Thanks again for revealing the heart of this ministry. Remember to pray for them that they are delivered from the snare of the adversary.
When you get to the heart of the matter on tithing you find that its all about honor. If you understand honor than you understand why people who want to give to the Lord. The church representing the Lord is a whole other topic. But it is in our world the largest place where believers gather and are fed. I have found that 100% of the time people who argue with giving the tithe have issues with money. I have no problem giving the tithe and then some to God's kingdom work. I would have never been able to do the "and then some" if I couldn't let go of the first 10%. If it really all belongs to Him then what is your problem?
I go to gateway church where he is pastor. He speaks on tithing once every three or four years that is it. He also stresses that he is not saying you get rich or be bless right away or receive cash. The way our church tithes is that you do that on your own time. There is no bucket that is passed around. There is no time in the sermon where they do the tithe. There is boxes in back of church and you tithe if you want. How many churches pass a bucket and ask every service for tithe. He never does that. Instead once every four years he will do a sermon on it, that is it.
I go to gateway church where he is pastor. He speaks on tithing once every three or four years that is it. He also stresses that he is not saying you get rich or be bless right away or receive cash. The way our church tithes is that you do that on your own time. There is no bucket that is passed around. There is no time in the sermon where they do the tithe. There is boxes in back of church and you tithe if you want. How many churches pass a bucket and ask every service for tithe. He never does that. Instead once every four years he will do a sermon on it, that is it.
MARY SAYS. I WILL NOT TOUCH THE LORD'S ANOINTED. RICK WARREN, ARE YOU ON THIS?
I find it interesting that you chose not to expose Rick Warren's role in teaching the false Gospel of Chrislam to his congregation. Saying that Allah and Adonai are the same is a false gospel that will send you to hell. If you are going to expose one then expose the other as well
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