Update: Wade Burleson has posted an article on the Elephant Room, entitled "The Problems with Elephant Room II are the Elephants in the Room." Wade asks some great questions that should be answered.-----------------------
Members at First Baptist Jacksonville have to wonder: just who is calling the shots at First Baptist Jacksonville? Do the trustees or the deacons of the church even care what is being brought into your church?
I have been critical of the way the First Baptist Jacksonville Pastor's Conference has been transformed into a marketing bonanza under Mac Brunson, whose son Trey now runs the conference. You can read just a few of the past articles here, here, and here. In fact my criticism of the Pastor's Conference in 2007 and 2008 was specifically cited by the FBC Jax Discipline Committee as one of my 16 heinous sins in the discipline letter they brought to my door three years ago.
So while the godly leaders and pastors and discipline committee can't bear to have a blogger or his wife on the premises, they have no problem exposing their members and visiting pastors to the likes of Furtick, Jakes, and Driscoll.
T.D. Jakes is roundly criticized by Southern Baptists as being a modalist and a preacher of the false prosperity gospel. He regularly appears on TBN with his false prosperity nonsense. My favorite T.D. Jakes prosperity gospel performance is his classic shake down on TBN that you can see on YouTube here.
Then, Mark Driscoll. What can you say? I had my suspicions about Driscoll based on his 2007 pornographic sermon on the Song of Songs. He speaks of erections, Jesus commanding women to perform oral sex on their husbands, and other sexual topics that I won't mention. If you don't believe me, you can read the transcript of his sermon here. The Wartburg Watch has done multiple articles on the teachings of Mark Driscoll here.
Then, as I wrote a few months back, Mark Driscoll claims to receive visions from God of terrible sexual sins and crimes while counseling people. Yes, he sees the sexual sins of his church members. He even had a vision of a wife's infidelity, which he described in detail, and then confronted the wife in front of her husband over his vision. Weird, wacky, stuff. Don't believe me? See the video here.
So this is what is now being brought into the FBC Jax Pastor's Conference. Too bad the deacons and trustees of FBC Jax don't have the guts to explain to Mac and Trey that the event would better be hosted elsewhere, like at Celebration Church. Their pastor, Stovall Weems, is more in tune with the Elephant Room crowd than will be the visiting pastors or the people of FBC Jax.
It just goes to show you more of the empty words of Mac Brunson. On so many occasions he tells his people to stop reading information by heretical, questionable teachers. He proclaims that one of his primary jobs is to "protect" the people of the church - yet he brings these guys right into the Ruth Lindsay Auditorium during the Pastor's Conference.
So visiting pastors who have signed up for the 2012 FBC Jax Pastor's Conference: click here to register at the FBC Jax Pastor's Conference website for the Elephant Room II, and you can sit at the feet and learn from T.D. Jakes, Steven Furtick, and Mark Driscoll, in the comfort of the Ruth Lindsay Auditorium.
Who knows, maybe next year Trey and Mac can arrange for a simulcast event featuring Bennie Hinn and Joyce Meyer.
97 comments:
Isn't everything in the Christian's life supposed to be guided by the Bible? Did Paul or Jesus say it was very important to have preacher conferences with big names, big entertainment, big excitement, big money?
Seems Jesus would be more impressed by some no-name believer helping somebody somewhere. But, then, that's not very exciting, is it? Some nobody helping another nobody doesn't bring in the big bucks.
If what you write is true (and I think most of it is) then FBC Jax and Mac are disgusting but you are not a pastor nor an attendee of the conference, nor a member of that church, so why don't you give it a rest and move on.
You have a new church now so write about that and get your focus off of your former church and former pastor.
Tickets for the live event at Harvest Bible Chapel are just $379 - a bargain!
My opinion of Mark Driscoll just hit an all time low. Furtick reminds me of James Dean, just anrgy. Jakes is a showboat. This session should definitely be a great help to pastors...
Mac needs a new audience as well as the money it will bring in. These men standing on the pulpit of our beloved Mrs. Lindsay is a disgrace - FBC is all about numbers & money - thanks Deacons, you're doing a great job of being puppeteers to the wants & needs of Mac Brunson. You don't deserve your position - besides you were elected because of your popularity, not your godliness!
Watchdog, I seriously thought you were pranking us, so I had check it out. Sadly, you were not. So thankful to have moved on, and embarrassed to have stayed as long as we did.
Have you ever seen an Elephant Room Watchdog?
You write like you have never seen one before. Do you know the dynamics?
Jason
Jason, I've seen bits and pieces of the Elephant Room, what I can see without buying the DVD package.
I love the fact that you can actually be in the same room with these super men of God if you shell out $379. Yes, a $379 ticket to watch 8 men in a round table discussion. What has Christianity come to where we are doing this sort of nonsense?
This is about selling tickets. The Elephant room is a big marketing ploy. Money is being made from it. And think of the money the guys in the room make for doing what they love to do: Talk.
Driscoll's new book on marriage affirms sodomy. Poor married women who follow Driscoll. What idiots.
And the Driscoll apologists are, of course, offering up all the typical excuses.
The guy is a thug.
Then you know it is roundtable debate and dialogue. Showing The Elephant Room does not endorse TD Jakes' theology, if anything it exposes pastors, Bible teachers, and laity to what a lot of people are listening to, which is a false Gospel.
James McDonald (a conservative pastor) moderates and it includes Jack Graham (traditional Baptist), Matt Chandlar (reformed Baptist), David Platt (current, evangelical theologian) and Greg Laurie (conservative evangelist) along with some of the more wacky pastors such as Jakes, Furtick and Driscoll.
I think it is imperative for people to hear these diverse voices and see first hand that there are some unhinged pastors/theologians within the circles of "Christian" leadership.
As the engineer of a public forum and dialogue Watchdog, I would expect you to love the free speech of these talking heads as well as the exposure of Biblical Christianity vs. Prosperity Gospel and Personality-Driven theology.
Jason
Jason - I don't believe the best way to expose false theology is to sell tickets for $99 to watch the false teacher talk about his doctrine. Are you for real? FBC Jax and its facilities are being used now to funnel money to the Elephant Room gang.
To bring in TD Jakes and Furtick to preach at the conference is one thing. To offer the option of watching conservative, Biblical Christianity spokesmen debate and dialogue with false gospel pastors is a completely different thing.
The amazing thing Watchdog is that you don't have to attend, pay the $79 and listen. You can exercise your freedom by not going. The other amazing thing is that some people will choose to pay the $79, will get some great insight into the condition of pulpits and poor theology around the nation and will be re-energized to confront bad theology specifically and to equip their congregation with today's tenants of a false gospel.
You win by not going and they win by going.
The truth is that 1000's will pay the money across the nation to watch it...and if you charged $79 to make comments on your blog then it would just be you on here. ha!
Jason
The Blind Men and The Elephant, and more.
So Jason, which one of these guys are you related to?
Jason has no problem with money changers in the house of worship.
He seems to place one of his celebrity preacher heads over any integrity of the Word.
Yeah Jason, which one of those boys are you related to anyhow?
Wade Burleson > The Problems with Elephant Room II Are the Elephants in the Room
I'm related to most of the them, so are you.
And I'm fine with the integrity of the accusations of money changers in the temple AS LONG AS you have never purchased a book, a music cd, a ticket, a mission trip fundraiser for a middle schooler or a VBS t-shirt.
Alright, I'm done.
Jason
Jason,
Why would anyone need to pay money to "get some great insight into the condition of pulpits and poor theology around the nation"? All of these guys have plenty of free stuff online for those who are interested to investigate.
You also suggest the event will re-energize people "to confront bad theology specifically and to equip their congregation with today's tenants of a false gospel." I think it's more likely that those who pay $79 and up will become fanboys of these celebrities if they aren't already.
I noticed that Jack Graham is one of the "Elephants" who will be in the room. But darned if they didn't put him in the wrong session! There is a session about what is to be done when a leader has a moral failing. Would have been nice to feature Jack Graham on this one, and have the other elephants ask him about John Langworthy.
100 to 1 odds that the subject of John Langworthy will not come up during that session while Graham is there - and THAT will be an elephant in the room for sure!
Burleson hits the nail on the head concerning these goons.
It seems that there will be plenty of "hot air" in this room full of elephants. Seriously....Dr. Lindsay would not tolerate this stuff for two minutes. Boy, has this church gone down fast, since his death. I don't recognize it spiritually at all anymore. So sad. Deacons you sure have made a mess. Your leadership is lousy, not to mention following a man. And you think people should give 10% of their income to this failure???
This is a very serious situation that deserves our utmost attention. The scriptures mention that in the last days men will get worse and worse. It appears we have reached the appointed time in history.
There are no two ways about it: Trey Brunson has absolutely KILLED this once great Pastors Conference. Destroyed it. And his dad either doesn't know what's going on or doesn't care. Same goes for the trustees.
It's a downright travesty.
Anonymous (December 17, 2011 3:56 PM) said:
“Jason,
Why would anyone need to pay money to ‘get some great insight into the condition of pulpits and poor theology around the nation’?”
This is the point. Locking efforts to help provide discernment on various theological issues behind the gate of a high access fee prioritizes the act of making money over the purpose of helping provide discernment.
Jason (December 17, 2011 12:10 PM) said: “The amazing thing Watchdog is that you don't have to attend, pay the $79 and listen. You can exercise your freedom by not going.”
Dodge and deflect, Jason. The point remains that there is no reason to lock efforts to help provide discernment on various theological issues behind the gate of a high access fee, unless those behind the Elephant Room feel that the act of making money off the Elephant Room is more important than the purpose of the Elephant Room.
Jason (December 17, 2011 12:10 PM) said: “You win by not going and they win by going.”
Dodge and plug, Jason. The point remains that anyone who is not able to pay a high fee for access to the Elephant Room will miss out on what help in discerng things the Elephant Room can offer. Put another way, those behind the Elephant Room deny their help in discerning things to those who are unable to pay high access fees for access to the Elephant Room.
This is important because the exercise of sound discernment is integral to the believer in Mashiyach Yehoshua's mental and spirital health.
Jason (December 17, 2011 3:16 PM) said: “And I'm fine with the integrity of the accusations of money changers in the temple AS LONG AS you have never purchased a book, a music cd, a ticket, a mission trip fundraiser for a middle schooler or a VBS t-shirt.”
Deflect and attack, Jason. Are you saying that helping provide discernment on various theological issues is no different than providing any other good or service within a capitalistic context?
Now, in taking your replies as a whole, I find how you are handling this conversation very familiar. When I confronted Prayer Stop over their practices, I got the same kind of response--dodge, deflect, plug, and attack--and had exactly the same conversation before it was censored. As a result, I wonder: Are you some sort of representative for those behind the Elephant Room?
Just curious.
If someone is stupid enough or gullible enough to pay $379 or even $59 to hear these hypocrites then they get what they deserve.
It is sickening to read the sermons these guys preach and then the topping on the cake is to have Jack Graham there talking about anything. He should be in jail for what he didn't do.
Actually, these people who are attending are NOT paying it. It is their church members who are paying for it. Another way to fleece the sheep.
I agree with Anonymous, 12/17 8:41 AM. Focus on your new church and move on. Your obsession with FBC and Mac Brunson is unhealthy and tiresome. Get a life or better meds.
I agree with Jason. Not sure I see the big deal here. People can choose NOT to watch the Elephant room.
Just like WD has freedom to write his opinion here people are free NOT to go to the Elephant room.
As far as churches paying for ministers to go: Again that is up to those churches. If they do not want their leaders going, then it is up to the churches to stop it, not us. If you go to a church that feels comfortable allowing ministers to go then don't give to the church and go somewhere where you feel comfortable giving money. Simple.
Didn't Jesus himself call the religious leaders "a brood of vipers?" So anybody criticizing religious institutions would be in good company, I think.
Besides, it's so very PLAIN to those who really look, what a lot of these huge churches with their conferences, etc. are really all about. Cut off their money and see how fervent they are then.
To me, it's just like Hollywood. You've got your major stars, your minor stars- and all their fans. It's showbiz, pure and simple.
What is wrong with Furtick?
Has been a top 10 fastest growing church for several years and preaches a strong gospel message.
Henry Blackaby taught us to watch what God is blessing. God is blessing Elevation Church. What's wrong with that?
Could it be the "style" of the Church? Could it be that you are old and stuck in the past? Could it be that the days of a black suit, black tie, black shoes, a KJV bible, and a good case of dandruff is your idea of a Pastor?
Could it be that God is blessing something that you don't like?
Could be..,.....
"What is wrong with Furtick?"
Something.
/
Anonymous proclaimed again:
1. Could it be the "style" of the Could it be that you are old and stuck in the past? Could it be that the days of a black suit, black tie, black shoes, a KJV bible, and a good case of dandruff is your idea of a Pastor?
2. Could it be that God is blessing something that you don't like?
To the first, I just feel your love and compassion to help a brother out here. With a claw hammer in both hands.
To the second,if you mean a churchy activity that has a lot of numbers in dollar signs and head count. You could then say Hollywood is a great blessing from God.
But we know who the god of Hollywood is, dollars signs and false conversion numberss that pump up a balance sheet can't be counted as God's blessings. It's just celebrity worhsip or some form of entertainment. Yee hahh.
NEXT!!
The FBCJAX Pastor's Coference used to be one the greatest things going. I stopped attending the SBC Annual Meeting years ago, but always made it an annual event to attend the FBCJAX PC, it was just an amazing experience. I started going back in the days when both Dr. Lindsay, Jr and Dr. Vines both hosted the conference. I stopped going after Dr. Brunson's first year of hosting--quite frankly it just got to be too expensive.
And now, the Mickey Mouse Club of preachers they are promoting is another reason to save my money and go to the Jerry Vines Bible Conference at FBC Atlanta each September! It is very reminiscent of the grand old Pastor's Conference pre-Brunson.
The speakers and activities of the 2012 conference is evidence enough that I have made the rght choice.
Kyle
agree with Anonymous, 12/17 8:41 AM. Focus on your new church and move on. Your obsession with FBC and Mac Brunson is unhealthy and tiresome. Get a life or better meds.
December 18, 2011 12:22 AM
LRH,
Why are you here?
"Has been a top 10 fastest growing church for several years and preaches a strong gospel message.
Henry Blackaby taught us to watch what God is blessing. God is blessing Elevation Church. What's wrong with that?"
So that means God is blessing Islam which is the fastest growing religion.
Amazing what people will believe. Of course if Blackaby said it, it must true, always.
God must not have been blessing Jesus' ministry when He said that you must drink my blood and eat my flesh because tons of people turned away.
Sheesh! I wish people would get a clue and start studying on their own with the BEST teacher that Jesus promised: The Holy Spirit
OFF TOPIC.
Miss Guinell Freeman who invested more than fifty years of her life serving the people of Jacksonville and the membership at FBCJ went home to be with the Lord this morning after a bout with cancer. She will be missed!
I have to say that the transcript of that Driscoll "sex talk" message was THE most disturbing thing I've ever read here on WD.
Total perversion, and further evidence that this guy has some serious fixations.
The fundamentalist evangelical male mega pastor view of sex is totally demeaning to women - or excuse me - the "helpmeet."
I pray my daughter never marries one.
Benny Hinn probably has his feelings hurt. Surely, if they can ask Jakes, Benny and Crouch should be there too. I remember flipping channels and seeing T.D. Jakes in a fiery oratory, and then walking down into the audience and blowing on people and watch them fall....and the organ music got louder each time another person was slain in the spirit. I recall seeing ministers I respected on Paul Crouch's TBN, and was angry that they would further confuse people who would think these pastors had endorsed Crouch's theology. Remember what your Mama said....you are known by the company you keep. Cannot for the life of me, understand how people will accept this in their church.
"You can exercise your freedom by not going."
Yep, I'm not going OR watching OR listening to them. Who wants to hear or partake of a load of maggot riddled elephant dung? Those blokes are lording it over people and making heaps of dollars from it as well for their Scripture twisting heretical false teachings. NO THANKS!!! They need to clothe themselves in sackcloth and ashes and get on their bellies in the dust and repent of their sins for deceiving millions of people and Mark Driscoll, his books are filth!!! And they are getting filthier by the day. Looks like his latest one promotes sodomy. According to Driscoll it's ok to sodomize your wife and get her to perform oral sex on you??? Is he a bike gang member or a hells angel or something? Has he earned his red wings??? Hells Bells. What? He's a Christian??? Could’ve fool me. He is more of a foul mouthed uncouth “punch ya in the throat” lout. Noble (punch ya in the throat), Furtick, Jakes? Hell. They (and thousands more like them) are Scripture twisters extraordinaire. God help America, the rotten leaven is EVERYWHERE!!!
What is the chief end of man?
(Thomas Watson, "Body of Divinity")
Question: What is the chief end of man?
Answer: Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him forever.
"My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When can I go and meet with God?" Psalm 42:2
Is the enjoyment of God in this life so sweet? How wicked are those who prefer the enjoyment of their lusts, before the enjoyment of God! 'The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, the pride of life,' is the evil trinity they worship.
Lust is an inordinate desire or impulse, provoking the soul to that which is evil. Lust, like a feverish heat, puts the soul into a flame. Aristotle calls sensual lusts, brutish, because, when any lust is violent—reason and conscience cannot be heard. These lusts besot and brutalize the man.
How many make it their chief end, not to enjoy God—but to enjoy their lusts! Lust first bewitches with pleasure—and then comes the fatal dart! This should be a flaming sword to stop men in the way of their carnal delights—Who, for a drop of pleasure, would drink a sea of wrath?
So that means God is blessing Islam which is the fastest growing religion....says Anon 11:53
Washington Post said TODAY that Christianity is the largest "religion" in the world...
Did you graduate from High School?
Amazing what people will believe. Of course if Blackaby said it, it must true, always.
NO, if God said it is true...are you an idiot?
God must not have been blessing Jesus' ministry when He said that you must drink my blood and eat my flesh because tons of people turned away
HUH...are you drinking???
God is using Furtick, Jakes and Driscoll, if you don't like it, take it up with God...
...just saying...
"Off Topic"
I'll be shocked if Tom does not 'cast blame' for Ms. Freeman's passing on Mac Brunson. Lord knows, I'm sure he'll try... he blames everything else on him.
Anonymous 8AM 12/18
You said "Has been a top 10 fastest growing church for several years."
You have bought into the lie that growth equals faith. In fact, many of these mega churches attract people who are looking for a show and abide by a faith that is entertainment based. As one looks at the stats in the US, Christian faith is on the decline-slowly yet steadily.
We have traded the faith for a TV show. In fact, just this past Sunday, my pastor did a lesson on how mistaken we are when we believe that bums on seats equates to sacrificial faith.
How far we have strayed from a real Jesus. We have created Him in our image and, in so doing, have begotten the likes of Noble, Furtick, Hinn, Young et al. We need to repent.
It's interesting that some of these same comments were being said during the exposure of Ergun Caner.
"God is using him, deal with it". "Liberty is growing in number". Yet, he was lying and verbally abusing. It wasn't for God but for himself.
I would disagree that God is using arrogance, verbal abuse, and a host of other things I can say. As Dee said above growth does not equal Biblical. TBN has a large audience, CBN has a large audience, Benny Hinn spoke to a crowd of thousands as did Oral Roberts, and a host of others I could name.
Question: Did Christ, Paul, etc. speak anywhere in scripture in this manner? What is our demeanor as Christians to be? Grace, love, joy, peace, these are the fruits of the Spirit. This is how you know something is of God or not.
Not shock jock preachers who get in your face, using bully tactics and proclaim that they are the only ones who can discern heresy. Show me in the New Testament where this was ever done.
I would also have each of you look at some of your comments. You are using the same method of bullying and attempted shock jock that these men are using. It's a lie guys. It's not the Holy Spirit that is in some of these comments. And Dee is so right, we need to repent.
I'd like to see these CEO Pastors join Warren Buffett and pledge to give 50% of their wealth away. I doubt you will get any takers.
Jesus and his disciples fed 4,000 with fishes and loaves. By today's standards that's a "mega-church". I doubt they commanded a million dollar salary, however.
Hey it is almost Christmas.
Could we take a break from the hate?
You can pick up your bitter pill and take it again on Dec. 26th.
Please?
If you have anything against someone, forgive—only then will your heavenly Father be inclined to also wipe your slate clean of sins." (The Message)
I agree that Driscoll's sermon was perhaps the most disgusting thing I have ever read but please don't lump all fundamentalist, evangelical, male mega-church pastors together. There are some good ones.
Some of the most debauched pastors I have ever known were liberal, non-evangelical, mega-church, female pastors. Go figure that one out. Men aren't the only ones with distorted views of sexuality.
"December 19, 2011 11:24 p.m."
Disgusting...you should be ashamed for saying such a thing. God is watching. Unbelievable...
Kinda off topic but well worth watching. Videosofblessing has posted another video on youtube featuring Dr. Lindsay preaching for about 2 minutes. Type in "Don't miss Heaven-FBC" and see what First Baptist use to have as a dedicated Pastor who honestly loved his sheep.
Tom
Just a note of support for the fine work that you are doing at your blog. The detractors will stick their heads in the sand because their faith is based on the goodness of their pastor. if that is challenged, the foundation of their faith begins to crumble. They must shore it up at all costs.
You are preaching a clear message. We must look to Jesus as the foundation of our faith. He will never let us down. Continue to expose the problems in the church. We have agnostics and atheists visiting our blog who have walked away from the faith because of the foolishness of some of these pastors.Some of them are fighting their way back because of bloggers like you.
I wish you a Merry Christmas, friend!
"The Elephant Room is more than an event. It is the outgrowth of an idea. The idea that the best way forward for the followers of Jesus lies not in crouching behind walls of disagreement but in conversation among all kinds of leaders about what the scriptures actually teach. We must insist on the biblical Gospel, right doctrine and practice but not isolate ourselves from relationship even with those who believe much differently."
"I'd like to see these CEO Pastors join Warren Buffett and pledge to give 50% of their wealth away. I doubt you will get any takers. "
Mark, Would you lead the way for us or is this just something you think others ought to do? Why mega people and not all believers?
There's always a bunch in every church who want the pastor to give away part of his salary but these are usually the same ones who want to base the pastor's salary on the "average" teachers salary. They are also the ones who never tithe.
On the other hand, I'm sure the Watchdog will take the lead in giving 50% of his income to charity. And it probably won't be a church.
"The Elephant Room is more than an event. It is the outgrowth of an idea. The idea that the best way forward for the followers of Jesus lies not in crouching behind walls of disagreement but in conversation among all kinds of leaders about what the scriptures actually teach. We must insist on the biblical Gospel, right doctrine and practice but not isolate ourselves from relationship even with those who believe much differently."
“Don't dare question our authority, what WE say goes. If we want to discuss, promote and embrace the current ideas, methods and scratching ears teachings and techniques with heretical Scripture twisting false teachers who believe much differently than we do we are gonna do it and you can just shut ya mouth. We are not going to call them to repent of their evil wicked unholy sinfulness, we want to have fun times with them at your expense because it is you drongos that are paying for it, ha ha ha ho ho ho teehee teehee teehee snigger snigger snigger hells bells highway to hell.......”
They are NOT leaders they are wolves in sheep’s clothing deceiving God’s elect if that were possible and thank God that is not.
"They are also the ones who never tithe."
I don't tithe thank God, tithing is for those under the law and who lived more than 2000 years ago. If someone wants to give what they decide in their hearts to give well that is between them and God and NOBODY else.
Far out, there's a condemning, damming, nasty legalist around every corner and behind every bush and down every dark ally just waiting to pounce...
My exact feelings about Mr. Rich.
What an example he 'could' be...tell us Tom, did you tithe your $50,000?
Does anyone know the origins of why this is called the Elephant Room?
For all of those that dislike the Watchdog, answer me this question. Just what did Watchdog along with his wife do wrong while serving at FBCJ for twenty years. Think on that question and remember thats 7300 days or about 3120 services to deserve the current criticism aimed at him.
"My exact feelings about Mr. Rich.
What an example he 'could' be...tell us Tom, did you tithe your $50,000?"
Shouldn't you be asking his lawyer? :o)
"Mark, Would you lead the way for us or is this just something you think others ought to do? Why mega people and not all believers?"
Sure would. If I identified myself as a minister of the gospel. They twist scripture to induce compulsive giving and justify personal financial gain from the gospel. Much different than what I read in the New Testament concerning ministers. Period.
"You received without paying; give without pay." Matthew 10:8-9
"That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel." 1 Cor. 9:18
"For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word..." 2 Cor. 2:17
"...(They) who make a gain of those whom they make their proselytes, serving themselves and making some advantage of them; for all this is through covetousness, with a desire and design to get more wealth, or credit, or commendation, by increasing the number of their followers. The faithful ministers of Christ, who show men the way of truth, desire the profit and advantage of their followers, that they may be saved; but these seducing teachers desire and design only their own temporal advantage and worldly grandeur"(Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible; 2 Peter 2:1-3a comments).
Maybe they would take a page from David Platt.
FBC Jax,
I don't know if you ever came across this story or not, but it relates to Furtick's church. It is a story about a mom with a son with autism being escorted out of the meeting place when her son "said an Amen of his own."
The story can be found here:
http://www.skyejethani.com/special-needs-boy-removed-from-church/762/
"Maybe they would take a page from David Platt."
The David Platt who was a part of Elephant Room 1?
I was confused when I first saw this, because my thought was, "isn't the Elephant Room a jazz bar in Austin?" Why, yes it is. (Have to wonder if the people who thought up this "Elephant Room" know about the bar?)
Personally, even though I don't drink, I'd rather spend an evening sipping Coke and listening to live jazz at the Elephant Room in Austin rather than be in a room all day long with seven or eight raging pastoral egos, oops ELEPHANTS. But that's just me.
""Maybe they would take a page from David Platt."
The David Platt who was a part of Elephant Room 1?"
Yep.
Anonymous said...
My exact feelings about Mr. Rich.
What an example he 'could' be...tell us Tom, did you tithe your $50,000?
There you go again, regurgitating that store house tithing talk. Stop parroting that old testament legalism and get with the new testament.
What Mr. Rich does with his funds is his business. Period. He did not solicit those dollars from you and for that, you don't need to know.
Ask the 'Michelin Man', Mac, when he might be rescinding the no trespass order and then he could lead by example. Naahhhh, aint gonna happen, that would admit some measure of fault and you believe to the core, that he is semi-divine.
PLease, just wake up.
Garlando
TD Jakes: I read where he denies the Trinity. If that is true, then why in the world would that heretic be part of any SBC function?
If he does believe in the Trinity, then he prosperity gospel is the same as Creflo, Bob Tilton, Benny Hinn and others.
Baptist leadership is gettin' stupider and stupider.
Usually a pastor's ego is surprassed only by some of the members in his church.
Garlando...
I have no interest in "Mac"... just making sure Tom Rich 'practices' what HE 'preaches'. He seems to think he knows it all... in reading this blog, he does seem to blame Mac Brunson for life itself... he needs to move on wirh it... and, if he does the right thing, he did tithe his $$$... no matter how he got it !
Dec 20 12:12
I agree "stop the hate". WD needs to be the first to do so.His obsession needs to stop...let it go. Let God bless.
Hi Readers - after a very nice week off, I'll be back with a new post on Saturday. Darrell Gilyard is set to be released in a few days, so I'll be writing a bit about that. It was almost exactly 4 years ago when the Gilyard story broke, and he's been imprisoned for about 2 1/2 years.
I see someone said in the comment stream this week I would be blaming Mac Brunson for the death of Guinell Freeman. How sick. But it didn't take long for Mac to comfort those mourning Ms. Freeman's death by telling everyone that her last words to Mac were "God called you here [to Jax]". Classy, very classy indeed!
Have a great time over the Christmas holiday everyone, I'll have a new post up Saturday, and will resume a normal schedule of blogging next week.
WD, those who new Ms. Freeman knew what a Woman of God she was... so, take trust her words (whether you believe it or not) re: Mac Brunson, "God called you here", and be done with.
Just move on and celebrate Jesus !
Well done Tom. You may not have linked Mac to the death of that lady but you sure found a way to slam him. Seems like more and more posters are right in that you need to let it go.
There is more than enough to write about since you now seem to think yourself an expert on everything.
Just remember that when you become and self-anointed expert, then people are going to start going after you like you go after Mac.
Hope you enjoy the journey.
As wise and sweet as Guinell was she was wrong when she told Mac "God had called you to Jax" as she was on the Search Committee who made the decision. Personally I believe the Search Committee did the calling not God. If it was God FBC would not be in the mess it is in. The church woud be growing not declining.
Thanks W/D for your ministry - Merry Christmas to you and your family. We appreciate your blog!
I am more and more convinced that this blog and blogs like it are necessary in this day when mega-churches and CEO pastors will have no tolerance for anyone questioning their tactics. They serve on each others boards and look out for one another when it comes to their exorbitant salaries and questionable theology.
In the last week I learned about Mickey my Mouse Driscoll, Freaky Furtick and "Rub my belly and get a wish" Jakes.
I believe their formula works, not because it is from God, but because we as a society can only relate to bumper-sticker Christianity.
When they boast of 10 or 20 thousand in weekly attendance, I say phooey, that's paltry. I say maybe it would be 10 or 20 times that if they didn't treat their ministry like a temple to themselves.
The gospel doesn't need fancy marketing. Look at what's happening is sub-saharan Africa and China.
Dec. 23, 10:05 & 10:59, well said!
Tom, I want to echo what others have said: your blog is really needed and we appreciate what you're doing. Christmas blessings to you and your family. And Merry Christmas to all the readers.
D
Dec 23, 12:28
AMEN !!
Add my voice to the chorus of "this blog is needed"! It levels the playing field considerably, hence the reason mega-church pastors deride bloggers.
Keep up the good work, Mr. Rich. I live in Charlotte...the Furtick Kingdom. People are slowly becoming aware of how it's all about Steven and less about God. I'd like to think blogs like this one are the reason.
Merry Christmas!
KarenM in NC
Watchdog Merry Christmas to you and your family. Keep up the good work you have and are doing. The real Bible believers know for a fact that you are a watchman on the wall. Unfortunately, some people just don't like you and mostly for what you stand for...truth and the American Way!!!
Thank you Tom for giving people a forum to finally feel free to talk about the things that have been troubling Christians for years. The usual way of being fed up with what is going on with our mega pastors and the complete disregard for the people in the pews is to be silent and simply leave rather than try and solve the problems. When a mega church decides to build a specific building just for prayer when people are in dire need of the Lord's touch through His church....I could no longer stand for it. When you see the arrogance and the hard line tactics taken by these "men of God", you yearn for someone to speak out....I read the Wartburg blog and know that there are so many who are trying to wake people up. You have been attacked and hurt to the core after serving the Lord for many years, only to be slapped in the face. I know there are people sitting in the pews that do not dare speak out...but, want to remain in church where their friends are. I yearn for a time where the pastor knows your name, and even will come when you need him....where the Bible is taught verse by verse...where the biggest amount of tithing is for the benefit of the lost, hurting people around us, and where, I feel I am as much a part of the business of the church as the pastor....where pastor's salaries and benefits are in black and white on a printed page....where there is real regard for the suggestions and needs of the congregation. Pipedream???? With God, all things are possible.
You people are possessed with mega-church pastors. If you don't like them or what they say, then don't go to their church. Your biggest hypocrisy of all is when you say and act like you are the only "real believers." Hardly.
Tom didn't get "slapped in the face." Remember who started the whole thing and it wasn't Mac.
You people are obsessed with what is said on this blog. You people need to follow what your heroes the mega church preachers tell you and stay away from this blog.
Anon 5:55. Who was served papers not to attend services? Voicing ones opinion on a blog is not worthy of being served with a tresspass notice. You must be in high school. You need to search the scriptures.
This blog is a disgrace to Christmas.
Jesus did not come to Earth to bring trash like this.
Repent and grow up.
I don't know if the blog is a disgrace, I just find it continually depressing. There's no light, no joy just criticism.
(Why do I read it? For the same reason people watch oncoming train wrecks.)
Merry Christmas to you Seneca or whatever your name really is (I forgot). If this blog is depressing, please don't visit it! This blog is not here to depress people, but to be a source of information and commentary about what is going on in our churches today.
Thanks to hopeandfaith and Karen and D and Dee and others for their kind words of support and appreciation for the blog. The blog will continue on into 2012, for its sixth year. Lots more to cover and to write about, so no slowing down!
Best wishes to all of you that are readers and commenters of this blog for a great Christmas with your family. I do appreciate all of you, even those of you who express disdain for me and this blog. You do contribute in your own way. ;)
The next post, on Darrell Gilyard's soon release from prison, will post early tomorrow.
Why don't you spread your influence and do some articles on Catholic priests who molest boys. There are a lot more of them than there are Baptist staff members who do the same.
Better still, let's have a series on Methodist and Pentecostal mega-pastors so we can learn to appreciate the Baptist mega-pastors a bit more. You could always start with Joel O'Steen since he would provide you with plenty to hyperventilate about.
At least Gilyard is an actual criminal and not just a mega-pastor that you don't like.
It's amazing to see how many people get so uptight when their pretty, perfect world of church is questioned.
They dress up, wear their cross necklaces and assorted religious jewelry, go to church in their Lexus RX350 Hybrids and feel good about their decision to hear their weekly pep talk. They are faithful tithers, because, as we know, "it is a sin to rob God by giving less than 10 of your gross income." They attend small group Bible studies which "connect" those who "don't know Jesus" in a meaningful way. They are, in all accounts, the faithful Christians.
Yet, they decide to post anonymously on this blog to throw their hate at the blog owner, who is throwing light where there is darkness. The light exposes things that the average, and I mean average, Christian is just incapable of understanding.
It all looks so pretty with the perfectly choreographed worship service and lock-step messages from the "true believers."
This blog is bigger than FBC. Heck, I have never been to FBC. I have, however, attended a mega-church in Dallas with the same flaws- Fellowship Church with Ed Young Jr. I got here by chance through excellent reporting on what Ed Young is doing in Miami now. I am nearly a decade removed from that church, but the need to show others the unBiblical teachings is so important. Yes, unBiblical. It's time that we become as the Bereans and search scripture to see if what they say is true. It's not about style or preference, it's about being true to the Word of God. That's it for me, at least.
Merry Christmas Watchdog !
Hope Santa brought you lots of treats and toys:)
God bless you and your sweet family. Thank you for all your tireless work. 2012 will be an interesting year for sure.
I like to use Google's blog search tool (http://www.google.com/blogsearch) to see what some people are up to. So, I plugged in //Ed Young Fellowship Church//and MY O MY Ed's got a whole slew of shill blogs and domains cluttering things up, posting his sermons over and over, etc., etc. He's really trying to skew things so that his faithful followers won't find out exactly what's going on. Even plugging in //Ed Young Fellowship Church controversy// gets you information about the church's iPhone app. (What we Android users don't get any love, Ed?)
Anyway, someone out there is spending a lot of money on search engine optimization, might be worth a Watchdog look.
There are some interesting things to be taken from this elephant room thing. I really enjoyed watching the last one, although I felt that David Platt got rolled over and over being surrounded by mega church pastors who did not share his "radical" mindset. When an issue of controversy surfaced I found myself agreeing with Platt time and time again. I enjoy MacDonald in general too, but for the most part Elephant room 1 played like an apologetic for these men rather than a serious discussion about doctrine. I would imagine part 2 will do the same.
I am interested to see what happens with TD Jakes though. The last session saw Macdonald giving a straightforward critique of Jakes' theology. Will that magically fail to be mentioned now?
I attended the conference for nineteen years but have stopped attending. It was a blessing to hear men like John Phillips, Warren Wiersbe, David Jeremiah...ect... and with Rodney Brooks leading the music it was an oasis for pastors, but all of the above has vanished, the price skyrocketed and the last couple of years I attended it was not nearly as well attended. Frankly I miss it.
Anonymous said...
Admittedly, excess time during the Christmas season, and utter amusement in this ongoing diatribe gave birth to my remarks.
Wade ... the self aggrandizing comparison that "The Internet is the modern Gutenberg press. Bloggers [particularly yours and your accompanying flea bag], are the modern press," is quite absurd. The propagation of the Bible, as the Good News, printed in the language of the people is categorically distinct from your malevolent harangue inflicted upon men chosen of God.
Worse still is the ongoing attack upon His church. First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, where I was a member for many years, stands symbolically as a modern-day legacy of God's faithfulness in North America.
These are kingdom issues ... far beyond the scope of the local pastor sentenced to living within the dismal and oppressive red-clay district of Enid, OK.
This kingdom under your attack is composed of God's people. It is a spiritual kingdom. Author Gene Edwards, in Tale of Three Kings argues, " ... no rebellion in the kingdom of God is proper, nor can it ever be fully blessed." He rightfully states, "...those who lead rebellions have already proven, no matter how grandiose their words or angelic their ways, that they have a critical nature, an unprincipled character, and hidden motives in their hearts." Ultimately, God never honors division in His realm."
Christ died for the church (visible and invisible)that you are seeking to divide. As a fellow-pastor, I remind you that we are called to unity (Eph. 4:1-16). This passage exhorts us to "gentleness" and "humility", showing forbearance of one another.
Shepherd the flock among you. Maybe the "watchdog" can assist you in the task of gathering sheep, instead of scattering them with destructive measures.
Mike Kelly (in the event the name is not captured within the blog)
Together, in His service,
Anonymous (January 9, 2012 2:27 PM) said: “This kingdom under your attack is composed of God's people. It is a spiritual kingdom. Author Gene Edwards, in Tale of Three Kings argues, ‘ ... no [sic] rebellion in the kingdom of God is proper, nor can it ever be fully blessed.’ He rightfully states, ‘...those [sic] who lead rebellions have already proven, no matter how grandiose their words or angelic their ways, that they have a critical nature, an unprincipled character, and hidden motives in their hearts.’ Ultimately, God never honors division in His realm.
Christ died for the church (visible and invisible)that [sic] you are seeking to divide. As a fellow-pastor, I remind you that we are called to unity (Eph. 4:1-16).”
The worldly manifestation of the Assembly of Messiah is not the Kingdom of YHWH Elohiym. Specifically, while the former and the latter may significantly overlap in certain ways, there is no basis by which to conclude that the former and the latter are strictly the same in form or function.
Because of this, the believer in Mashiyach Yehoshua cannot simply grant a Pastor or Rabbi unqualified loyalty as an infallible agent of the Kingdom of YHWH Elohiym. Otherwise, we would not need passages like 1 Timothy 3:2-15, Titus 1:5-9; 2:1-2, 1 Peter 5:2-3, Matthew 7:15-23, and 1 Thessalonians 5:21 to be written to us for our protection.
Now, in light of this, the Apostle Shaul and the Apostle Kepha tell us that overseer elders should not be “overbearing” [NIV 1984] (Titus 1:7), “quick-tempered” [NIV 1984] (Titus 1:7), “quarrelsome” [NIV 1984] (1 Timothy 3:3), “lover[s] of money” [NIV 1984] (1 Timothy 3:3), pursuers of “dishonest gain” [NIV 1984] (Titus 1:7), or ones who are “lording” [NIV 1984] their position over others (1 Peter 5:3).
Yet, these terms clearly describe many Pastors who demand unqualified loyalty from their churches and unqualified respect from Christians in general.
In light of this, Pastor Kelly, let me ask you this: Given the context of how people like Independent Fundamental Baptists view the Pastor’s authority, how do you hold a Pastor who has their congregation firmly believing that they are a God appointed and God equipped mediator who relays God’s will and guidance to them accountable? How can you hold a Pastor who has the power to beat a self-serving interpretation of Biblical Scripture into the hearts and the minds of their submissive congregation week after week publicly and privately accountable? How do you hold a Pastor who promotes the idea that unified submission to him is the basis of his church’s unity accountable?
I would like to see how you would answer these questions and, at the same type, maintain your seemingly unqualified opposition to all types of divisions and rebellion within the worldly manifestation of the Assembly of Messiah.
I have almost abandoned the idea of attending the Elephant Room 2. Now, as I read about TD Jakes, I am reconsidering. That ought to be interesting. I do not know whom I dislike more Charismatics or Baptist Calvinists, probably the later, but this diversity of opinions should make the discussion less boring.
Mann! I just found this site! Can anyone say REVENGE!!!! How bitter can you be and still say you are a Believer! You are hurting ALL OF US AND OUR LORD doing this the way you are! Get a life and move one! Wow!
I know you won't put my comment up because you don't want honest opinions... I am praying for you.
Try following Jesus instead of a church...
Pastor Mac is doing a great JOB, most of you all are idiots and full of the Devil
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