- Thank you Jim Whitmire and musicians - the music was great.
- Thank you Dr. Vines - for modeling for our pastor and those present how to be a man, stand up, and preach a bible sermon without having to put people down, or make silly points attempting to address critics (we know of late you have had some). You didn't come in with a chip on your shoulder, didn't come to further your own personal agendas, you didn't twist scripture to make certain points to people, you just preached the Word. You've reminded us what its like to hear a humble, happy, spirit-filled man of God just preach the Word to feed the sheep. We still would love to hear you take a public stand in favor of a sexual predator database, maybe you will do that at the convention this year.
- Thank you Jimmy Scroggins for an outstanding message on children and youth ministry integrity. Your passion for youth ministry is very evident. A great sermon. Ever consider coming back to Jacksonville? You're on our short list.
- Thank you Paige Patterson for preaching a great Bible lesson Sunday morning. We have thirsted for so long to hear good, solid, expository preaching that we soaked up your sermon like sponges. You too have more than your share of critics (including this writer) and could have come in here to push your agendas, answer your critics, and be the tough guy with a chip on your shoulder, but you showed grace and dignity and many were reminded what a great expositor you are. Not only that, you had one of the best lines of the conference: "If I believed one-tenth of what everyone writes about me, I wouldn't like me either."
- To our pastor Mac Brunson: Your sermon Sunday morning was embarrassing for many of us, but we were glad that the pastors present got to see for themselves what we have experienced the last couple of years. We again left another service scratching our heads, wondering:
- how could our pastor actually stand in the pulpit and accuse SBC pastors that the reason people are blogging about pastors is because the pastors are attacking each other? When you got absolutely ZERO amens, you screamed its "truth under God"...in a house full of preachers when there is not one amen, probably what you said is NOT truth, no matter how loud you scream it is so. Most pastors that blog are not "ripping" pastors...take a close look and you'll see that the pastor's getting "ripped up one side and down the other" as you said, are the ones who are either making stupid decisions consistently, are not being open and transparent with their congregations in financial matters, are living extravagently with "God's money", or are sending sexually explicit text messages to little girls. Last time I looked, no one is "ripping into" Johnny Hunt, David Jeremiah, or Junior Hill.
- for what earthly (or heavenly) reason would our pastor say: "...I have enough smarts, drive, and ambition that I could go anywhere and make a living..." Really? If so, why say it? How arrogant you must be to utter such a thing. As Jonathan Falwell said Friday night, any of his ability if he has it, comes from God. Imagine Jonathan Falwell saying such a thing...."I don't need your money, I have enough drive, smarts, and ambition...". I do defy you Mac to use your smarts, drive and ambition to find a job that would give you a $300,000 free gift of land, jobs for the family, etc. Arrogance with a capital "A".
- how could you dare to drop the line that "no wonder our church members are stingy and won't give the tithe, when so many pastors are negotiating salaries like NBA players and CEO's" - talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Pastors present: we apologize on behalf of our pastor for such a stupid thing being said, by someone who lives in a million dollar + home, drives a BMW and Jaguar, and lives on a $300,000 tract of land given to him in a gated community backing up to a golf course. He says he didn't know his salary at FBC Jax until he told our search committee he was coming. Who cares, and what relevance is that? Let's use some logic to prove Mac doesn't know what he's talking about: the only pastors who MIGHT be negotiating NBA money are the mega church pastors; and can anyone tell me one single mega church that has any openness and transparency about what the pastor's salary is, or even more so does anyone know of churches who tell their members about how salaries are negotiated? That information is so closely guarded that NO MEMBERS but a very select few know anything about salaries or negotiations of salaries. Therefore Mac, you do NOT know what you are talking about...actually, if there is anything related to pastor salaries affecting people's giving, its what they SEE WITH THEIR OWN EYES: large million dollar homes, fancy cars, jobs for wives and sons, free gifts of land, use of condos rent free for a year. So do NOT tell anyone it has anything to do with pastors negotiating...its PASTOR'S LIFESTYLES WHICH REFLECT LAVISH SALARIES!!! Well, what about the other perks including the land and the ocean front condo - did you know about those? Besides, we don't believe you...you may not have known the actual salary number, but that doesn't mean you told them what you needed to make the deal.
- On the last evening our pastor then dared to give his son credit for raising $100,000 for the conference, and used that as an opportunity to tell everyone what his son makes as Director of Special Projects ($50,000). Trey raised it? No, praise God that some generous members donated the money...that's the story. Never in all my years have I heard a pastor publicly exposing a man's salary from the pulpit, and certainly NEVER, EVER have I heard a pastor ascribe the raising of funds in a church to a man's efforts...never. Why do that to your son, to proclaim to the church and pastors what Trey makes? Maybe this is a trend - that you're going to slowly let us know what everyone makes? Let's go straight to Deb and yourself...how does that $100,000 that Trey raised compare to your salary? To Deb's?
Well pastor's, perhaps we'll see you next year. If you want to express your comments to FBC Jax about the conference (good or bad), feel free to do that here if you like...several church staff members are daily readers of this blog. We hope that you enjoyed the "Team Building" theme of this year's conference...even though as you have seen, the only "Team Building" going on at FBC Jax these days is the building up of "Team Brunson". Next year's theme? Maybe you have some suggestions...
38 comments:
I think you might be a little looney tunes. You blast Paige Patterson, and Jerry Vines and yet in this thread all the sudden they are just angels. I have to question if there isn't something wrong with you? Which I'm sure is a question that many have when they read your delightfully empty and base comments.
Your opinions of Mac Brunson matter very little to me. You have an extremely distorted and false view of our Pastor. Everything that he comments on that are close to issues you have on this blog (which I highly doubt he reads anyway) you call lies. What truth do you want? You blast him for paying Trey too much money, and the you find out he doesn't pay him this extravagant amount and you still have problems. You blast him for taking up too much money per pastor for the conference yet blast him when he lets people know that Trey found ways to cut costs this year. I don't get it.
If you look up Focus on the Family's website there is a link to find a counselor in your area. I highly suggest you going and speaking with one, they won't even charge you if you don't have enough money. Post this or not, i honestly don't care, but I really am trying to let you know that I think you need help. Reach out to someone, please. I can guarantee you that even the Pastor would still meet with you if you needed counseling.
And fine, rip me to shreds on your little blog if you wish...but deep down you know that you need help as well. Fire back your sarcastic, cruel and ridiculous remarks - but that's all they are....your remarks, your opinions, your thoughts. If people knew who you were your opinions and thoughts wouldn't hold water.
You know I find it interesting that there are those who come here to read and complain about FBC JAX's reporting. Why do they come here to start with? It is like those listeners of Neil Boortz that say "I will never listen to you again", yet they do. What do they hope to find? As far as pointing out the character of some of these preachers, I imagine that Joshua and Caleb had some nice things to say about "Aaron and his golden calf" in their day. I am sure that Aaron supporters complained about Joshua and Caleb and others that what they were doing was wrong.
Just an observation
SAB
Hello Anon - no, I won't rip you to shreds. But I'll take the liberty to psychoanalyze you as you have me.
First let me correct you on a few things. Yes, I have "blasted" as you say PP and JV here before, but in no way are my kind remarks about their visit during the PC a retraction of anything else I've said previously. JV needs to apologize to many people, especially those who have been hurt by Gilyard, for preaching at Gilyard's church. I still am sore at PP for the things he said about FBC Jax not giving Mac a honeymoon...I still think PP could have done more to stop Gilyard. I still hope that Sherri Klouda wins and wins big her suit against PP and SWBTS, and that the SWBTS board dumps PP, allowing him to use his gifts elsewhere.
But my point in saying nice things about JV and PP and their sermons when they came here is that first, I believe my kind remarks are true, and secondly their behavior in the pulpit was a stark contrast to Mac Brunson's. Having men stand in the pulpit and open the Bible and preach the Word and letting the Holy Spirit do the convicting instead of the pastor...it was just very refreshing. I don't believe JV and PP are "angels" as you say...therefore your premise of I might be "looney tunes" because of my PP and JV remarks is just wrong. So come up with some better reasoning as to why I'm looney.
Having said that, now your psychoanalysis:
I can tell that you are very close to the pastor. And I know that what I'm saying here on this blog hurts you to read it. No one wants to read unkind things about someone they love or admire. I understand that.
But what you've done is to come here and attack the person saying things that are true. Yes, they are my opinions (that's what blogs are all about), but I'm pointing out facts that do resonate with many in the church in Jax and around the country. It is extremely tough for you to read these things, I understand. So you've chosen to attack me as being a lunatic (and its clear in your post that you do sincerely believe believe I'm crazy and in need of professional counseling), but I understand completely where you are coming from, and why you say such a thing. That is just a defensive mechanism that you use so you can deal with the information on this blog. If I'm not a lunatic, and maybe things that I'm saying are true, and that many people agree with me...well that's too much for your mind to process, you can't go down that road. So its easier to say "you're a lunatic, and you need to get help." But I understand, my friend and I don't hold it against you.
But my advice to you is do not come to this blog ever again. If I'm a lunatic, please exercise more self control and never come to this blog. There are many blogs that I know of that I don't visit, because well, they are lunatics. So you will do much better to ignore this blog.
Lastly: about your comment of "Trey found ways to cut costs this year". That shows me that you are extremely spiritually immature. If you know Trey, tell him that he didn't cut any costs. Why can't we just acknowledge that the Lord moved in the hearts of people to give $100,000 to "cut costs"? If anyone was to get recognized for the "cutting of costs", it was the generous givers who GAVE THE MONEY! But Mac can't say "God bless you dear people at FBC Jax who gave generously to cut the costs", it has to be about Team Brunson.
Anonymous 12:23,
For many countless times we have read W's thoughts and posts that are seemingly non-christian in manner. Maybe this is why he remains nameless. Maybe not...but I wonder what Watchdog would say if I asked him why he blogs with no name? There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with decisions made by a pastor but there is a right and wrong way to do so. For instance, saying that JV should apologize is a wrong way to disagree with him.
What really matters though is what does Watchdog think God is thinking about his blogging hobby? I hope Watchdog has given this thought.
Another thing, you have to understand that Watchdog doesn't think what he is doing is wrong. At least that's the impression I get. He sees no sin in blogging the way he does about pastors and their decisions. So I don't think Watchdog will seek counseling for blogging. I don't think Watchdog needs any counseling. None of us are perfect right?
One thing I get tired of though is reading the same sarcastic posts about the same things. Like the pastor's house. Who cares about his house or his wife's car for that matter.
Lastly, one thing I have realized is that this blog is fueled by the people who read and post on it. If all the people who disagree with Watchdog, including myself, would quit responding, this blog would probably not get the attention it is receiving. Like Pastor Brunson said, the reason why churches today are in bad shape is because of the people in the church. How can we ultimately win people to Christ and get them in church when the church isn't following Christ?
Robert - I like your reasoning and tone and it makes sense. I am a frequent reader and commenter here and have honestly wondered why I support this blog. I guess it is just because I see how determined the leadership (lay and staff) are in not operating openly and transparently. That is the real issue for me. Ultimately, what the pastor makes for a salary, and why someone would give him a $300,000 gift could be much less of an issue if he was just open and honest about it. Those are just two examples. And the way he had the by-laws changed really made me upset. And the way he complained and whined to PP and JV to the point they both publicly felt the need to come to his defense, well that is really disturbing.
Frankly, I have lost trust in the man and since there is so much going on at the church that no one holds leadership accountable for, the blog is necessary. As soon as they get real with people, and communicate openly and honestly, there will be no reason for a blog. Even responding to anonymous emails would make the blog worthless since folks could get their concerns addressed that way. It seems Team Brunson dug in against anonymous emails and instead, chose to have a public blog to deal with issues. Just sayin...
I am anon 12:23 - I see that quite often when people disagree with you, you tell them to not come back to the website. Is this possibly something you could take your own advice on? Why don't you leave the Church? Obviously you disagree with what the Church leadership does. You tell me not to revisit, so....my advice is the same for voice of reason. If so much trust has been lost, then just leave. Don't use the logic of "We're the ones who are being used to call him out." Not true, if God is the one that called him, then God will take care of him if he has something that needs to be taken care of.
Watchdog, you harp SO much on this land deal. But you honestly have no idea why he received it, you weren't privvy to the conversations that took place regarding the land. You are completely clueless regarding the exchange, and if I were you I would be so hesitant to declare that either party has done wrong. Again these are all assumptions you have made. I just want other readers of your blog to know that. You have NO GROUNDS for thinking that he did something wrong, all you have is paperwork and you assume. And my thought is that if there are that many people reading this blog, as you claim, then if something had in fact been wrong in any part of the exchange wouldn't it have been brought to light at this point?
Anon - I'm sorry that you didn't take my advice. Please don't visit blogs that are written by people you believe are lunatics, its just a waste of your time. Perhaps you don't think I'm such a lunatic after all.
I really have not accused anyone of "wrong doing" in the land deal. I'm merely pointing out the facts, and then daring to ask the logical questions that come to mind after the facts are observed:
Mac and Debbie Brunson bought a piece of land valued at $300,000 for $100 and "love and affection" 2 weeks after they arrived in Jacksonville. The seller of the land was/is a donor of the church.
If that is wrong, please correct it. If there are other relevant facts that help interpret this fact, then tell us. That fact then raises questions, many of them that I've asked here on this blog. For what reason did the Brunson's get to buy a piece of land for $100? Was that negotiated as a part of their package? Did the search committee know about this land? Was it not mentioned to them until after they came to Jax? Wouldn't Mac know that this would be a terrible testimony to his church looking like he was a man of extreme privilege taking such a large gift from a donor of the church?
Those are not idle questions my friend. You are one close to the pastor and you likely know the whole scoop on the land deal. Go ahead and get approval from the pastor to post answers to the questions so we can put this issue to bed. If you're going to come here and call me a lunatic, and challenge me to leave the church, then I would challenge you: give us facts sir. Answer the questions here. Hundreds of people all over the convention are watching and waiting. Mac opened the door Sunday by declaring he never knows his salary before he shows up to pastor...so let's go all the way here and release all the information concerning his salary, his perks, the land deal, etc. Pastors that were here for the conference who listened to Mac blast pastors who negotiate NBA and CEO salaries are very curious as to how Mac can say those things when he was given a piece of land worth $300,000 for $100 by a donor of the church. So now Mac needs to give the rest of the information...nothing wrong in the land deal? Great, then let us know the details of the land "exchange" as you called it.
One thing that I would like to say in regard to Trey's salary of $50,000. I'm sure that it does not include all the perks that go with the job including a housing allowance, car and gas allowance, cell phone and computer equipment that is bought and maintained by FBC, travel, clothing, and anything else that can be added on.
I know first hand how the "salaries" work at FBC. The base salary is just so people won't be shocked at what he is actually being paid. What you really want to see is his complete end of year compensation.
God bless Calvin Carr and Bob Barton. Both of these men lived in modest homes and did not fleece FBC like some of the other Staff did. What a shame that both of them are no longer there.
Big Bird: Your post was very relevant, but it appears under an older article than the most recent one...I recommend reposting it under the current discussion as most readers don't go back to the previous discussions
Church Lady - Mac always leaves us scratching our heads.
His revelation of Trey's salary in the context of how much money Trey "raised", is extremely troubling, and once again leaves us scratching our heads.
Does he really view that as money being "raised"? Does he really view that money as being "raised" by the efforts of man and not by God moving in the hearts of the givers to give? Does the revelation of Trey's salary in the context of how much money Trey "raised" mean that this is Mac's attempt to justify to the congregation having Trey on staff? If that is justification, how much money is Deb raising to justify her salary? What is her salary? And John Blount, are you "raising" any money to justify your salary? And does Mac view the budget in terms of his efforts ("look at how much money I raised at the church")? If so he did a pretty poor job "raising money" at Dallas because he left them in deep debt.
I'm just asking the questions here Anon. Maybe you can answer them for us.
And those of you who gave a portion of the $100,000 that Trey "raised"...do you feel duped? You thought it was God moving in your heart to get you to give...now you know that Mac viewed that as Trey "raising" it. Good job Trey! You got those people to give! Way to go!
Watchdog, you are a deciever. I bought the CD of Mac's Sunday morning message. (I paid $5.00 for it -- tho't you might want to know that since you're so obsessed with money.)
I listened for 27 minutes before I got the the NBA salary comment. 27 minutes of excellent bible exposition that challenged me. All of the comments that he made that you have trouble with occured in a 3 minute time span.
His message was not a blasting of pastors.
You say this is what you get every Sunday? Well, if you can't take 3 minutes of getting your toes stepped on, then you the one with spiritual immaturity. Sometimes the truth hurts.
If you have a problem with Mac, GO SEE HIM. If you truly cannot get in to see him, which I highly doubt, then make an appointment with Trey. He will be more than happy to meet with you.
Or you can sit there in your momma's basement and continue to whine.
Sheri said..
The fact that Mac Brunson made the statement that Trey "raised" $100,000 makes perfect sense. You have to understand that today's pastors see themselves as CEOs of nonprofits, not as shepherds leading sheep.
Once you really take the time to wrap your head around this concept, however disturbing and disappointing it is, the more everything else makes sense... including Mac's statement.
Think about it...in a nonprofit, salaries are justified by the amount of money raised by the person holding that particular position. In fact, there are many jobs that are strictly fund-raising in nature in a nonprofit.
WAKE UP FBC JAX !! Unfortunately, the days of the humble Bible preacher are long gone. I'm sure there might be a few left (like Calvin Carr and Bob Barton), but they're fewer and fewer, and totally nonexistent in today's mega churches. Welcome to the new era of FBC ( First Baptist Corporation ).
I cant believe what I'm seeing. Did Mac really say that? He actually gave kudos to his son for raising $100,000 and said this is twice his salary?
What is going on here? Have we gone insane? Have we so far strayed from where we have been as a church that we now have a man in the pulpit views gifts of God's people as "funds" to be "raised" by someone with talent who can go out and raise them?
How did Trey "raise" them? Did he hold a bake sale? Did he work and earn money? Did he run a marathon and get pledges for each mile he ran? I doubt it. He probably called and asked rich people who know his dad.
And if Trey is to be commended for "raising" funds for the Pastor's conference, should Dan Elkins start his own fund raising efforts for the middle school? Should we hold a bake sale? Maybe Dan Elkins can call rich members of the church and solicit funds to go to the middle school department.
Oh boy. We are in deep trouble and the layman cant even see it. We'er in trouble not for bloggers, but for Team Brunson.
This is a direct quote from Rick Warren as to how to deal with "Resisters" i.e. "Recalcitrants"
"Be willing to let people leave the church. And I told you earlier the fact that people are gonna leave the church no matter what you do. But when you define the vision, you're choosing who leaves. You say, "But Rick, yes, they're the pillars of the church." Now, you know what pillars are. Pillars are people who hold things up ... And in your church, you may have to have some blessed subtractions before you have any real additions".
These people who would ask us to get right or leave do not seem to understand what is at stake. We have a heritage at FBC. All of my children have been reared under Pastor Lindsay and Pastor Vines.Our people are worth fighting for so as long as Pastor Brunson still preaches the truth we will be there. These editorials after the sermon can be tough.
I believe if we could sell some of the HD-TV equipment that is not being used, we could start on the class rooms for our Seniors. This is an excellent idea. I hope we will remain steadfast about not going into debt to float any upgrades. I watched during the '70's when Independent Baptist churches lost their influence because they issued bonds that could not be paid back to the bond holders. We do not need to travel this road.
Some of the other visions are not likely to get much traction. Our halls are not in ruins. We may need a little paint and carpeting. The satellite church vision is a little scary to me. Who would be in charge of proper oversight? What form would the service take? Would it be traditional or contemporary? Would it be a model of the recent "seeker type" service?
The school? Been there addressed that! I know I am living in the past but Pastor Lindsay looked into a school years ago. He taught us it is better for the church dispersed during the week to bring your Bible to a public school everyday as a testimony to Jesus Christ. This is a long post but I love our church and its people.1Cor.1:27
but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”
Watchdog,
Thank you for allowing the weak and base things to have a voice.
Watchdog,
I have agreed with you on some things, and disagreed with you on most. It's really time for you to move to another church. Like I said in a post that never got a response from you a month ago or so, you now look at everything so critical that things you would have given Dr. Lindsay and Dr. Vines on in the past, are over magnified because of issues you seem to have with the current pastor. I wasn't there for the pastor's conference (wouldn't have been there if I were still regularly attending either) and while I didn't hear his sermon, the comment about NBA salaries appears to be out of line since over 95% of that conference if not 100% make nowhere near what he does. However, you take exception when the man says he did not know what his salary was going to be when he accepted the job because he wanted it to be the Lord's will. Why do you have a problem with that? For everything you claim about did he know about the free land, etc. you really don't know if he did or didn't but yet you choose to not give him any leeway on it. And like I said months ago, whether it was known or not, it is STILL none of your business. And it is none of your business whether it is a church pastor or a CEO of a major corporation. Anyway, I digress; that isn't going to change your opinion about it one way or the other, nor is anything you say going to change mine on that issue. The fact that he lived rent free for a year or whatever it was is another matter entirely. If the church was picking up the tab on that (not another member who was being nice) that is 100% wrong! Anyway, back to my original point. You say it is stupid he didn't know his salary, why? My former pastor in Orlando did the same thing when he was trying to figure out if it was God's will or not for him to go there. You say that is stupid to I guess not discern God's will of where someone should pastor (at least that is what it sounded like to me) but yet you say God moved on the congregation and Trey gets no credit for "raising" money for the Pastor's Conference because Mac gave his son some credit. So deciding to come here not based on salary but on seeking God's will first is a stupid move but raising money for a pastor's conference is God moving and not God using Trey in any way? It's like no matter what side of the fence he is on, you automatically position yourself on the other.
I am not going to attack you or call you delusional, say you need psychological help, or anything else. I just think it's time for you to close the chapter on First Baptist in your life and move on. We can debate all day and all night long if Mac Brunson is/was God's man to lead the church. You can claim he should have defended FBC to Paige Patterson when Patterson said those things about you all. The problem with defending it is when I was there, I saw much of it. I am not being critical of you, the church, or anything else; just stating what I saw. Much of which I have emailed you personally about and have probably mentioned in comments. But, in front of a congregation of people is not a time to confront and debate people. For all any of us know, Dr. Brunson may have privately told him he was wrong for that. But in doing so, it doesn't mean they were no longer friends, colleagues, mentors, or he would never be invited to speak again. Patterson is entitled to his opinion, right or wrong; just as you are. And remember, this is being written by someone who cannot stand him! It is highly possible that Brunson said almost nothing about FBC to Patterson but he has friends who attend FBC who he talked to and THEY may have said something to him. I was sitting in CLU one Sunday and David Allen called someone in the class, so it is not inconceivable that is what happened. It is also possible Brunson said a little, and Patterson wanting to be the good King of the SBC decided he would exaggerate some. Again, Mac may have said something to him after the fact. You don't know what happened, and neither do I.
You seem very miserable there. I know you have claimed in the past that your pastor's taught you not to leave somewhere over a disagreement. Well, this is more than a disagreement that you can live and let live on. He is the pastor of the church, you don't seem to trust him, you doubt his leadership, you take issue with things that are going on, and you don't seem to be on board with the direction of the church or anyone running it. Lindsay and Vines NEVER would have told someone who felt this way to stay anyway. There's nothing wrong with you feeling the way you do, I decided I couldn't be on board with the way they were doing things either. I tried...several times since being forced to move back here. Every time I felt like I didn't belong, couldn't get with their vision, couldn't get with their way of doing things anymore, etc. I had changed, and I wasn't going to be happy in the environment there. It appears you can't now either. There are plenty of other churches in town that will probably be in line maybe with what you want. My wife's parents go to Westside Baptist, North Jax is a good place, and there are others that you might like better. I don't know you, I don't claim to know you, but I think for you and your family's spiritual well being it is time for you to find another church.
That's my two cents. I would appreciate no attacks and "don't come back" comments, I tried to be very respectful to you but to tell you what I really think.
Watchdog - maybe those suckers, er donors, gave to Trey because he has "enough smarts, enough drive and enough ambition" like his dad does. Or maybe they gave not to Trey, but to the son of the pastor of the FBC of Jacksonville. I am sure Jon Vines would like to "raise" some money for his dad, too. But it is hard when your dad is not the pastor of a mega church with donors who think they are giving to the Lord. HOW DARE ANY STAFF MEMBER CLAIM HE RAISED THE MONEY! Oh, I forgot, the young and immature Trey, was not the one who made such an immature and worldly statement. It was the much loved, highly respected man of the people, Mac Brunson. Wow. And you gullible yes-men keep giving him millions.
Watchdog - here is an idea for all of us members of FBC Jax. Let's see how much smarts and ambition Mac and Trey have and let them "raise" the money for the church school and renovations and other things they take offerings for. Let's have a giving freeze and see how much smarts and drive they have. Hey, if I can get a member to give me $307,000 and have others give me a place to live for free, and have others give money to pay my salary, I believe I could claim to have smarts and ambition too.
HEY MAC - here is a little something to consider. Your doctorate in theology and masters in divinity don't quite cut in the business community pal. How bout an MBA, or medical degree, or law degree first. Then go out and compete with the real professionals who have the smarts, ambition and drive and try to survive when people are not telling you they love you and that you are God's man. You are a joke. Sure, you can fleece God's people, but NOTHING else! (Except maybe sell cars, since your oral skills would come in handy in misleading the poor gullible buyers.)
Wow for people who despise this "Team Brunson" so much...you all sure are wrapped up in them. Its actually kinda sick. Im not against speaking my mind...but simply because someone has an opinion (like this blog) that doesnt mean their opinion is right. You guys really think your opinion is the Gospel truth...it makes me laugh. Its ironic that youre so wrapped up, interested in and obsessed with people you dont like. At some point you just have to realize that youre not in control. I know you people have your opinions, but this blog has been up for a while from what I can see..and yet, none of your questions have been answered (and if they are you arent satisfied in the answer). I know this blog is made up of just a small few who continually write things on here...but give it a break. If you really think you have the right answers...then go do something. How much time is wasted writing out your thoughts on this blog that could be spent out actually doing something productive for the Kingdom. In fact...ive wasted too much time on here as it is. I wont be visiting this site again...partially because I become more stupid the longer im on here...and partially because I love the pastor. I love his style of preaching, I love his insight & knowledge. I think its funny how you praised Vines on here...but dont forget, it was Vines who requested the pastor to come. Im gonna place my trust in Christ alone, not a blog.
Look at that...wasted more time on here oops!
I don't think anyone here is asking any questions that they want to be answered. The point is to comment on the fleecing and lack of accountability that is taking place.
What amazes me is that someone would blog about their church. Yet, if that is amazing, how much more ridiculous is it for others to come on and blog, not about their church, but about a blog of someone else that is blogging about their church. If someone starts blogging about their school, I sure won't start posting on their blog telling them my opinion on them blogging about their school. That makes me worse than them.
Mac does, and says, stupid things. He is a public figure and leader of a large church. So, some people choose to discuss their disagreements here. What is the motives of the rest of you?
People, GET A LIFE! I just found this site and how sad that so many of you here are dragging our church through the proverbial mud. Please stop this. Our pastor Mac Brunson is a man of God. If any of you here that are slandering him would take the time to meet with him you would see that the things you are saying here are just side issues that the devil is using to distract our church. Do you think God is pleased with this site and the talk here? Or is the devil happy about it? One thing I know about our pastor, though. He will not let these petty fools here distract him from what he knows the Lord has called him to accomplish at our church.
Anon of a few minutes ago: Below is your post; I took the liberty of moving it from the previous thread to this one:
I see alot of bashing of "Watchdog" and this site...which those of us who DO stand behind the pastor should know better than to do.
"Watchdog" I dont bash you or think bad of you for speaking what you think and expressing your feelings. Some people are afraid to do so. My only concern is with how far this site has taken their "voicing of opinion" and with how far you have allowed those who do read your site to go. Im all for standing up for what you believe, but at the same time, I think we can express our concerns in a more Christian way.
Honestly, you may not agree with the Pastor, but you can express that in a more Christ-like way. Ive not read this site regularly, but I have looked through previous posts, and I have to say, most of the posts on here are very hateful...or at least come across very hateful. That is plain and simply wrong. Christ disagreed with the leaders of His day, but Christ was never hateful to them. He was very stern, and thats fine, but there are some hateful posts. Watchdog, I feel you should be more Christ-like in what you post and what you allow others to post. Dont stop expressing your concerns, but do it in a more Christ-like manner.
Ive seen accusations of wrong doing by the Pastor posted as facts on this site. I think, Watchdog, you'll agree that this site is simply to sound your opinions, concerns & thoughts. Why post things as though they are facts? Once again, Im not against voicing what you think...but I think that you should also state that this blog is merely your opinions, concerns & thoughts and that you COULD be wrong.
I know you must feel that its your duty as a member of the church to make sure everything in the church is right. Thats great, I think every member should feel that way. However, at the same time, is it really beneficial to the church to to post up people calling their Pastor names? Is it really beneficial to post people mocking their Pastor and have them see posts that tear apart, belittle and demean, not just the Pastor, but the Pastor's family as well?
I ask you to think about the Pastor's family. I imagine the stress of constantly being watched by everyone and constantly feeling scrutinized is an extreme load to live with...what must they think when they see their father called all sorts of names and lynched on this site? I dont go to your church, but a good friend of mine has been a member for 6 years now, so I hear about events and happenings there. (By the way, im glad to hear your Conference for pastors went so well.) Like I was saying, the obvious load a family member of the Pastor must feel is undoubtedly a large weight to bear.
Im simply, Watchdog, you are entitled, along with anyone else, to speak your concerns. I just hope you can be more Christ-like in what you post and what you allow others to post. You dont have to 'sugar coat' what you think, but you can address it in a much more adult way, and you can lead others to express themselves in a more adult way.
Christ was Holy and calls us to be Holy in ALL we do. Express yourself, but do it in a Holy, Christ-like manner and lead the readers of this blog to do the same.
I hope to attend your church sometime and make up my mind about what you say and what the Pastor says in the pulpit. I hope the people in your congregation are warmer in person than on this site...but I hope to find some there who are constant in the way they are. I feel its wrong to go to a church, sit in the pews and listen to a sermon, only to run home, take off your church clothes and masks, and blog every reason why you dont like the Pastor, without giving any thought to what God said through His Word in the service.
Watchdog, I believe you are passionate in what you type, I think you have a right to speak what you feel...I just want to see Christians carry out their concerns and voice their thoughts in a Christ-like manner.
anon Feb 8, 8:20 a.m. and the anon whose post was re-posted here by watchdog - are you saying you don't care about all the things the pastor has done that we have blogged about here? Why call us fools and tell us to get a life. You have one of two choices: Make up your mind that whatever he does is okay and you will never attempt to help anyone hold him accountable for his leadership of our church, whether his actions be right or wrong. Or, you are concerned about some of things and will get them corrected without participating in this type of forum you find so distasteful.
We know we are powerless to effect any change on the way he operates. All we can do is inform folks like you. You then, can with good conscience ignore these actions of your pastor or you can help get more openness and accountability. You seem to be one of the thousands who, no matter what the man does, won't question it. That's okay. We understand you. Why can't you understand us?
Watchdog - it seems we have a serious division here. You seem to simply want the pastor to be open and honest in his explanations for by-law changes, gifts of land, nepotism and other areas. He simply does not care and refuses to be open with you or his congregation. It seems it is his world and you just live in it. I see no end in sight to this division. Perhaps a compromise? How about he explains the by-law changes to us and why people had to check out the proposed changes and there was no discussion before the vote and no explanation after the vote. And he can explain the "exchange" of land he received. It is probably harmless and full of integrity, but since it has become a stumbling block to many, he should address it. Then, he can lovingly ask the bloggers to cease and tell them he will respond to their emails, signed or unsigned. If the bloggers don't shut down then, well, then the pastor will have proven his motives are pure and that he did all he could to bring unity. Let's pray his carnal nature will not interfere and we can all move on in unity.
Anonymous -February 8, 2008 5:12 PM
AMEN on EVERYTHING you said, I don't think anyone could of said it any better. Seriously you ought to be applauded for being the "bigger man" (or lady!) and taking the high road.
Watchdog please take it to heart and consider all the people you're hurting along the way. This started out as a helpful/informative blog for a lot of people but all the bashing of Mac is now out of control. You're NOT glorifying God with what you're doing. It's time you close the blog for good and move on with your life. Find a good church home and spend time with your family and friends. Life is short you may not have tomorrow so let this bitterness go.
I truly hope you can find peace and joy in your life!.
anon Feb 8, 8:20 a.m. - you asked if God or the Devil is pleased with this site? You tell me. A leader is robbing God of hundreds of thousands of dollars of funds and diverting them to himself and his family; trying to get millions more diverted to a school no one needs, berates and beats up on the sheep that used to have a loving shephard for 60 years, and is more of a CEO than the bibical office of pastor. My guess is Satan is pretty ticked that many can see this fleecing going on and that this blog is shining light on it. God is saddened by the need for it. This is not the way to run a church. Mac's problems stem not from just a desire and drive to have worldly fame and wealth, but it is because he also has arrogance and stubbornness that prevents him from loving the hands that feed him. He obviously is getting bad counsel from those close to him that filter the information he receives. He blew it in Dallas, and he has blown it here. But, boy the money is good!
Hey Mac - why no new book called "How to Avoid Church Members Blogging About You." You could make millions writing that book. Simply discuss everything you did in Jax, and then the way you responded to the first questions and concerns anyone raised, and voila! You will help thousands avoid the same mistakes you did.
I rebuke you and your blog in the name of Christ. If you have an issue with a Brother take it to him and if he will not hear, take another brother with you. If he will not hear then take it to the church. If the church will not hear take it to God and stop slandering the name of Christ in public for the whole world to see. Your chronicling of Brunson's mistakes, as you note them, is distasteful, imprudent, and hurting the name of Christ. Give it to God! If FBC JAX is struggling stop taking it to the WORLD WIDE web - it comes across petty if nothing else. Give you real name if nothing else. Your words appear to drip with venom and bitterness. Give it to God.
A. Lendel
I find this whole thread extremely interesting.
Lots of people posting about my mental state, my need of counseling and where I can get it, where I should and should not go to church, whether I know the blog is sin or not, how much I am obsessed with money, how deserving I am of rebuke, that I need to be more Christ-like, that I need to stop slandering, how little of a life I have, how miserable I am, how I'm dragging the church through the mud, how I'm distasteful, how wrapped up and obsessed I am with people I don't like, imprudent, how I'm harming the cause of Christ, and how I'm petty and a coward and a fool.
Then this A. Lendel fellow gives us this gem:
"Your chronicling of Brunson's mistakes, as you note them, is distasteful, imprudent, and hurting the name of Christ."
Unbelievable, don't criticize the man in the leadership position of one of the most prominent churches in the one of the most prominent evangelist denominations in the world, whose actions as described on this blog are harming a wonderful congregation...no, instead, let's blame it all on the person who writes about it on a blog.
Lendel what is "distasteful, imprudent, and hurting the name of Christ" are the actions, words, and views of the pastor of the church, not the person who happens to be blogging about them.
No voice of reason I'm not interested in a "deal". Mac's performance at the Pastor's conference revealed much about him, and I will be blogging for a while more as I have more to say.
A. Lendel I rebuke you for rebuking me on my blog and not rebuking the one who deserves the rebuking.
Robert P - the blog is not fueled by people who read it and post on it. The fuel of this blog are the actions and words of Donald Brunson.
Anon poster close to Mac Brunson: please tell us about the land exchange as you called it. If there is nothing wrong there, let us know the circumstances!
Sorry, but the Watchdog is here to stay for the time being. Team Brunson will have to learn how to deal with it.
For Anon February 8, 2008 6:25 PM:
(I posted Anon February 8, 2008 5:12 PM)
You ask why we cant understand you...I believe I do. In fact, in my post, I said that its right for a man to voice his opinions, concerns & thoughts. I do understand where you come from, I understand why this site is here...however I question if you do. I am not being sarcastic or trying to attack. Im simply trying to convey that this site is said to be an 'informative forum' to people...but it appears to be a shooting range with the Pastor as the target.
Im not saying you're fools, or even telling anyone to get a life. In the very beginning of my first post I stated that those who dont agree with this site and support the Pastor, should know better than to get on here and bash this blog and the ones who started it.
This blog, in all honesty, is not an 'informative forum'. In all do respects, this blog has been filled with bitterness, hurt & hate. These are not emotions, feelings & actions that please the Lord Christ.
Ive been scanning some of the post's and I'm honestly shocked to see people in the church, people who call themselves Christian's (which means Little Christ), who go to services Sunday & Wednesdays...I see the same people call their Pastor a "pompous a$$". I see the people who go to church services, join in on the worship, probably sing songs about how Christ saved you from sin, how He forgave you...I see those people come to this site, lay aside the views they sang about and almost seemingly, set aside the Lord they were worshiping, to get on here and not try to help & inform, but rather, post upset and appearances of hate about the Pastor. I never see Christ in Scripture, spend time with the Father and then go out and call people names, mock them and put them down. Im not putting your Pastor on a high plain, saying he's better than any other man. Im saying, how can people call themselves Little Christ's, go to church, sing songs to Christ, and immediately leave there to go home and call your Pastor a "pompous a$$", a thief of the church's money, and someone who is trying to build an empire through this "Team Brunson"? It does not matter what your views of the Pastor are, that switch in attitude, in the car ride from the church to your home, is not of Christ.
I'm not putting down those who write on here or the site itself. You can & should express whats on your mind...but as Christian's...the ones who are called to live Holy...there is a much better way to express yourself.
I am a sinner saved by grace and am no better than any man, but I honestly am ashamed of my fellow brothers & sisters in Christ for their attitudes on this site. For those of you who do not support the Pastor, I am ashamed for how you have handled this matter of expressing how you feel. For my brothers & sisters in Christ who do support the Pastor, I am ashamed of how you all have bickered, picked at and been just as hateful back to the supporters of this site.
There is a statement on this site that claims that if I make up my mind that what the Pastor does is okay, then I am not holding him accountable for his actions in the church. Brother (or sister) in Christ, I myself am accountable only to Christ. He is the only one who can judge my actions and the intentions of my heart. It is not mans place to hold another man accountable because man can not judge a another's actions and intentions. I am not saying to just sit back and let a man do as he pleases, that is where Spiritual maturity, discernment and wisdom come in to play. Calling the Pastor names and, in a sense, dragging him and some of his family through the mud, is not Spiritually Mature, Spiritually Discerning or Spiritually Wise.
Christ calls us to love one another because He first loved us. Watchdog, this is not an attack, but you have to see that alot of your posts are not out of love and genuine concern, but rather out of sarcasm and upset. You also have to realize that most of the post's you allow on here by others, are not out of love either, but rather they give the appearance of disgust and hate.
Christ NEVER treated any of us with disgust, bitterness, upset and hate when we most assuredly deserve worse than that...so why is it that we, people who bear his name, why is it that site supports, allows and seemingly supports talk about the Pastor, and those in his family, with the very attitudes and language we were saved from by Gods grace?
We are called to a higher standard than this...
I went to the Pastors Conference and thought that what took place ON STAGE was absolutely great, and inspiring, and wonderful. Its what took place in the audience I had a difficult time with on the last two nights. The first night I had the misfortune of sitting behind two ushers who seemed to feel that everything going on on stage was a mockery, and made quite a bit of noise in mocking it. Or laughing at it, or whatever it was they were doing. And running their mouths to the complete detriment of the service. I mean, they were young, but..... By the time they hit the song, Jesus...something special supernatural....and they started up again, that is when I took my exit. That service was RUINED for me. The next night, I completely changed sections, and ended up behind two men who seemed to find the heavyset women in the choir to be the most comical thing they had ever seen...and mocked every single one of them all the way up to the solo that woman Kendra somebody sang. By this time, I felt like I was being tested in some way since it was EVERYTHING i could do to sit there. Finally, it stopped. The service from that point on for me was great.
And I say that to say this, I almost decided Monday night to NEVER set foot in First Baptist again....knowing full well what its like to be MOCKED BY CHURCH PEOPLE, this having happened to me many years ago in another church. What must it be like to be singing in a choir, preaching sermons, be a family member of a church leader, and constantly have your family be mocked, laughed at, questioned, (and in the case of my family many years ago threatened, phone harassed, followed, lied about, RUINED-and I wasn't even attending at the time), and I just want to ask you Watchdog...how would you feel? Be careful what you do to others, Watchdog...it will come back. And no, some of the people at First Baptist aren't really very nice at all. But I think the staff is on the up and up, and thats more than you can say for a lot of churches these days. I DON'T, however, think all the people are on the up and up. And i think this blog one of the most disgusting things about this church, and there are HUNDREDS of other churches for you to go to Watchdog, and you should spend some of the time you spend blogging looking in to that. Cindy Treadway
Dr. Brunson - you were good today. No complaints. Thank you. I can see how good a pastor you could be, potentially. It is no wonder you "rose through the ranks" as you have done so. I felt you actually pastoring your flock with concern for them.
Now, I hope you will address the concerns of your congregation in regards to those by-law changes, the land deal, and the nepotism so that you can be all that God wants you to be here. Otherwise, you will never see the Lord work in your ministry like you and Him both would like to see. It really won't be that hard once you humble yourself and begin to reverse the damage you have already done.
I will be praying for you, sir. Thanks again for the helpful sermon today.
And by the way, as you can see, no one here is blogging about how "mad" you are. Why would you say that? Be careful about the spin you are getting from whoever filters the information you receive in the way of feedback. Be angry, but sin not. Be mad at sin, be mad at things that threaten your flock like you were today. Do not be mad and angry to sheep who may have a question or concern for you brother pastor. Have a great week!
Didn't Dr. Brunson say Trey raised more than twice his salary? If so, doesn't this mean Trey could be making less than 50K?
To: Voice of Reason,
"Be angry at sin"...mmmm, like this blog. Call it voicing opinions or whatever you want. Its still sin
Feb 11, 1:49 p.m. - the site is not sin. Get over it. You wish it were "sin" and you wish it were written by crazy people. Too bad, sweet, lovely Christian brothers and sisters share their concerns here. You may disagree all you like, but don't kid yourself. The concerns are valid and your calling another person a sinner puts you in danger of condemnation. Are you the Holy Spirit. What other specific sins would you care to list here? Murder? If you hate your brother you are guilty of that.
Please, try and discuss the by-law changes, the nepotism, the land deal, or any other concerns. Calling us sinners is so lame.
2Cr 12:20 For I am afraid that perhaps when I come I may find you to be not what I wish and may be found by you to be not what you wish; that perhaps {there will be} strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances.
Sin, pure and simple.
Hey anon February 12, 2008 7:37 AM - what part of that verse deals with discussing questions about a new pastor's abuses of his new congregation?
By the way, many will say you are sinning because you are blogging here. And others would say if you have a problem with a brother, you are not handling it correctly since you are posting here instead of going to the brother.
And yet still others would say you are coming on here and doing exactly what you accuse us of doing. Think about it.
Others would say you are judging your brother...do not judge.
And arrogance...why do you return and refuse to address the land deal, nepotism and by-law changes like I asked you too? Are you more concerned with a brother's opinion on a blog than you are with the pastor of your church's many actions that raise questions for so many?
Or are you maybe just a "troll?"
February 12, 2008 6:22 PM--
Sir (or maam) I am not coming attacking or putting you down, but i am simply addressing some comments you made earlier:
"new pastor's abuses of his new congregation?"
"why do you return and refuse to address the land deal, nepotism and by-law changes like I asked you too? Are you more concerned with a brother's opinion on a blog than you are with the pastor of your church's many actions that raise questions for so many?"
I know your concerns and now ask you to hear mine. In 1 Cor. 3:3 Paul says,
"For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?"
I know that this blog is said to be set up to make the church members aware of their Pastors supposed wrong doing. However, as I have said before, the post's on here are seemingly angry, upset and hateful. Paul says such things among Christians are fleshly and are of mere men. I know you say you are simply saying what is "true"...when in all seriousness, you, nor anyone else on this site, knows the truth behind any of the accusations made here. Like I said, im not coming to you out of sarcasm or upset...Im not trying to belittle you or your views. However, the accusations and posts are seemingly out of jealousy, upset, anger and the manner in which the views of this site are posted are causing strife.
Paul also says in 1 Cor. 4:4-5,
"but the one who examines me is the Lord. Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motive's of mens hearts."
This site is said to inform, but it does nothing but accuse and pass judgment on the Pastor's actions, intentions/motives and desires. This site questions his personal life, family and intelligence. Paul says that it is only the Lord who examines a man, and only God who judges and accuses...not other men. If you dont agree with what Paul says, then the words of Christ may mean something when he addresses those men accusing the prostitute...He tells the man who has no sin can throw the first stone.
I know those who post against the Pastor say they are simply questioning and addressing the "wrongs" of the Pastor...but the manner in which its done, is 'fleshly' and like 'mere men'...and if you want to inform others, then inform, dont accuse...because a believer can't accuse or judge another, that is up to Christ and Christ alone.
One more thought, what do you think drives the Pastor more...men accusing him...or the knowledge that there is One who can kill, not just a reputation, but the body and the soul?
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