"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Friday, June 12, 2009

More Brazen Commercialization...

While the Southern Baptist Convention is getting ready this month at its annual convention to deal with declining missionary program giving and an overbloated bureaucracy and the pulling back of missionaries from foreign lands, things must be going great down at FBC Jax. Apparently giving must be strong, and people at FBC Jax have excess money to spend.

Today, appearing on the FBC Jax website scrolling images is an advertisement for a "Danube River Cruise 2010" next April, through Uniworld Tours with "hosts" Mac and Debbie Brunson.


Yep, while the Southern Baptist Convention will have to pull missionaries back from the field next year, FBC Jax will be sending their wealthy "missionaries" on a luxurious river cruise, to "spread the gospel" in Hungary and Germany while sailing down the Danube. Leading this bold mission thrust journey will be Mac and Debbie Brunson.

While the advertisement says "details to come", one can visit the Uniworld Tours website here to get more information and pricing:

Uniworld Tours - Enchanting Danube Tour

According to Uniworld, it will be a "...leisurely paced trip for those who love history, food and wine, architecture, music and diverse cultures in a blend of the best of Eastern and Western Europe." Pricing will be around $2700, exclusive of air travel to get to Budapest, Hungary. The cruise will be on the new "River Beatrice",

described by Uniworld as their "...new, ultra-luxurioius" river cruise boat. Its facilities include "luxurious staterooms, with 80% having French balconies, more junior suites than any comparable ship, and a spectacular owner's suite provide the ideal sanctuary for a restful night’s retreat....All staterooms and suites have made-to-order English Savoir beds draped in the finest and highest thread count Egyptian combed-cotton linens, and cashmere/wool blankets."

Assuming this advertisement on the FBC Jax website is not a cruel hoax, the questions must be asked: is First Baptist Church a CHURCH, or is it a club? Is it a religious organization or a travel agency?

If nothing else, this is poor timing - the economy is still very tight, many FBC Jax members are giving sacrificially in tough times, FBC Jax has a challenging financial year ahead with the start-up of the school, and the SBC is struggling with declining missions offerings - and now the FBC Jax website is being used to advertise for a river cruise next April. From a pure marketing perspective, the timing of the ad is probably good - just before the SBC meeting in Louisville so that more folks around the convention are aware of it.

I was critical of the advertising on the church website last year of the "Holy Land" trips hosted by the Brunsons, but a European river cruise on an "ultra luxurious" boat takes the cake. This kind of advertisement and marketing has no place on the FBC Jax website. The cruise is not a "ministry", its not sponsored by the church, and it sends the wrong signal to the world: that the pastor and the church are involved in using church resources (the church website) to promote luxury cruises around the world.

I don't mind people taking cruises or spending their money as they wish. But using the church to advertise and promote cruises for the very elite - it is another step towards the commercialization of the church, and it stinks.

155 comments:

Junkster said...

I agree that this is just tacky and inappropriate for a church website, not to mention insensitive to those in need that the church could (and should) be ministering to. Will Mac make money from "hosting" this cruise? Many times the organizer of these trips gets a stipend based on the number of people who sign up; the more who participate, the more they can make.

Revelation 3:17-19 seems to apply:
You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

Anonymous said...

My guess is that the Brunson's get their trip free as some sort of deal with the travel agency? We have a lot of pastors doing this to get free trips and see the world. If enough people want to get 'quality time' with them, they pay for the Brunson's trip. You get the rub elbows with the celebs Mac and Debbie.

Mac is still living in the late 80-90's's when this sort of thing was not given a second thought. Now folks are watching and wondering where their hearts are. They are the models for the whole community.

Why not encourge those wealthy enought to do such a thing to use that money to buy bibles or China or fund a missionary or help a single mom in the church fix her car? Or a laid off dad with bills?

Poor in Jax said...

Like i have asked before, What is the mission of the Church? How far would Mac Brunson have to walk to find a lost soul in need? Im not saying he will not find one on a luxury cruise. It might be that there is not enough need in the streets around FBC. Another example of just how blind he is to the real world 300,000 per year plus perks, book sales etc... My guess is next thing will see will him in one of those cute shirts like Benny Hinn, only a bit larger. Mac you make all of those who said you were not a crook so proud.

Anonymous said...

What else do you expect. This is their type of world. What a ministry and look at all of those that are being blessed. Nothing interferes with opulence.

Richard said...

I'm with Poor In Jax. Has the mission of this church turned to one of wooing the wealthy as a way to fund it's "ministry?"

I've been reading this blog regularly with great sadness watching one man destroy an institution that has been a part of Jacksonville for over 100 years (one of you former members can tell me the correct number.) One poster commented some weeks back that Mac made a snide comment about the "souls saved" during a service and that it wouldn't make the front page of the Times Union.

Two things come to mind here. First, Mac failed to mention the number of "lost souls" going out the back door while he is saving souls coming in the front door. If you're saving 10 each week and losing 20 it's gonna bottom out at some point.

Second, just what has FBC done for the City lately to WARRANT being put on the news? Little if anything, with the exception of the pastor getting perturbed because people disagree with him.

Trinity Baptist got some news headlines this week:

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=139279&provider=rss

No, I'm not a member of Trinity Baptist. I'm a Presbyterian. Just saying ...

I wonder if Mac's Enchanting Danube Tour will make the local news.

Richard said...

Just askin ....

Does FBC have any sort of ministries that help or participate in local organizations such as this:

http://jacksonville.com/lifestyles/home_and_garden/2009-06-13/story/habiax_helps_people_get_a_home_sweet_home_of_their_own

Or did the $1,000 donation to the homeless shelter bust the budget for this kind of thing?

I'm a bean counter. Common sense tells me that the gentleman that gave Mac that piece of property in Deerwood for "love and affection" and a handfull of change deducted at LEAST that amount, if not more, from his income taxes. Charitable contribution. Can you imagine how many homes could have been built if the gentleman had donated that money to Habijax and members of FBC banded together and helped build the things? Now THAT'S a ministry. And he STILL could have deducted it from his income taxes!

AND .... without a doubt, it would have made the headlines of the Times Union and other news sources!

AND an action like this would save a lot more souls than a luxury trip down the Danube by the elite few.

Love and affection my behind.

Anonymous said...

More of the same from the elite within the "Baptist Mafia".

They use the "mission" term for secretly going on extravagant vacations at the expense of their hardworking members who think they spotless.

It is sickening.

Johnny Hunt and his Georgia Baptist buddies just got back from a great vacation to Argentina..oops Mission Trip from Argentina.

So glad I am not contributing one cent to these deceivers!

I am no fool. are you?

Richard said...

I mentioned earlier I was a bean counter. WD, help me out on this if you thing I have left anything out. Most of what I am going to say is assumption, but it should make a very valid point.

Your post says that the website (which I did NOT visit) states "Pricing will be around $2700, exclusive of air travel to get to Budapest, Hungary." Assuming that 20 couples (40 people) go on this cruise, someone (either the Church or the individual) will spend $108,000 on the cruise tickets alone.

It says that the cruise is scheduled for April 17-25, 2010. Assuming one would leave Jacksonville on the 15th and return on the 26th, I went to Expedia.com only because it was the first site to come to mind. Air fare to Budapest, Hungary from Jacksonville, Florida ranges from $819.00 plus fees per person to $4,633.00 plus fees per person. For simplicities sake, let's assume that plane fare will be in the neighborhood of $1,800 per person. That may be a conservative amount, but I truly don't think that anyone that spends $2,700 on a week's cruise is going to fly across the world in the cheap seats!

So you take 40 airfares to Budapest, Hungary and you come up with another $72,000.

I can remember when my parents went to Germany many years ago. My mother nearly broke my father buying souvenirs. I'm going to come up with what I consider a conservative estimate that each individual will spend $1,000 on incidentals while on this cruise and at it's destinations. There you got another $40,000.

Side trips? Have no idea. Motels? Not mentioned. Food? I'm assuming that is included in the price of the cruise. I could be mistaken. Have I missed anything?

In any case, what I have recapped so far comes to a whopping $220,000 being spent by someone for some rich folks to cruise up and down the Danube in the name of Jesus. What ministries currently at FBC could sure use a $220,0000 budget? (And I'm not referring to the pamper Mac Brunson ministry.) How many of the SBC missionary programs that are being cut could sure use an infusion of $220,000.

It would be interesting to know how many Southern Baptist Churches in this country operate on a TOTAL budget of that amount.

I agree with you WD, people are allowed to spend their money any way they choose. But on a Church-sponsored luxury cruise (or what appears to be Church sponsored?)

I wonder whose hairbrained idea THIS was? I have my ideas (nope, Mac's off the hook on this one) but I'm not going to mention names. My opinions are not facts.

Voice of Reason said...

As a former member who has moved on, I must admit I was shocked and outraged at this recent post regarding the continued brazenness of Team Brunson in promoting the "ultra luxurious" lifestyle it seems they came to Jacksonville to pursue. At a time when Dr. Brunson's motives and leadership have been called into question on the front page of the local newspaper, this is some more solid evidence that perhaps, just maybe, he actually might be more interested in worldly wealth and the finer material things of life, than he is in sacrificially feeding and caring for the sheep of the Lord Jesus Christ. If I were still a member, this would be the last straw that Dr. Brunson and his family are not concerned about reaching the lost in our city, but are in fact staying focused on wealth and luxury. From the oceanfront condo on Amelia Island, to the acceptance of the $307,000 land gift, to the building of the million dollar home on the golf course in Deerwood Country Club, to the Lexus and Jaguar, to the luxury office suites in the children's suite, to Mrs. Brunson taking a salary and benefits to serve alongside her husband, to putting son Trey on staff, I have to now say that I "get it." When will the folks in the pew put a stop to this hijacking of their church by Team Brunson and his small group of wealthy influential trustees? Of course I realize that pastors do not take a vow of poverty, and that the Lord may choose to bless them with their needs be provided for, but this is ridiculous.

I will keep watching and praying as I seek to serve Jesus and live for Him, in our city.

Kerygma said...

The Brunsons will get their trips at no charge and will be paid a handsome "honorarium" for each additional paying customer. That's how it works. It's a revenue stream.

Anonymous said...

FBC Jax members...please...STOP giving to the rich! It's IN DA BOOK!

Proverbs 22:16 (NKJV)
16 ...And he who gives to the rich, will surely come to poverty.

Proverbs 22:16 (NIV)
16 ...and he who gives gifts to the rich— BOTH come to poverty.

Proverbs 22:16 (The Message)
16 Exploit the poor or glad-hand the rich—whichever, you'll end up the poorer for it.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Kerygma and other anons - yes, I do understand that many of these trips "hosted" by preachers involve free trips for them and even honorarium for each head that they recruit to go with them.

Of course its entirely possible that Mac doesn't do this, or that he uses the honorarium to cover additional trips for travelers who can't afford it. But as I maintained last year when the 2009 "Holy Land" advertisement went up on the FBC Jax website - it would be good for Mac to let his church know that he does NOT keep honorarium from these trips if he indeed is not, since that seems to be the standard.

Anonymous said...

"We're blessed, we're blessed, we're blessed" - sung often by Tammy Faye Bakker BEFORE their downfall.

"God is good...all the time. All the time...God is good" and "Ain't God good" - said by too many pastors and their wives to even bother listing them all.

Enjoy the cruise. If you like history lessons, you are going with the right guy. I wonder what kind of wine they will be serving?

Thy Peace said...

From JSOResponse.pdf:

"The subpoena was deemed necessary due to suspicious activity involving the church pastor and his wife. The pastor's wife was being followed by unknown individuals, photographs of their residence was posted on the internet and mail was stolen from their personal mail box during the investigation. The subpoena was necessary to determine if the web site and aforementioned incidents were related.

What a joke! JSO, please learn something about internet fundamentals, before charging to the rescue. Don Quixote, comes to mind!
-----------------------------------
I humbly submit (re-re-re-submit) this humble comment made by an Anon:

Anonymous said...
I so wish my husband had been "called" to the ministry. I cannot remember when he had a week of vacation. He works most weekends and then faithfully serves on Sundays ( his only day of rest). He then does church work at least one night a week ( some weeks up to three). Pastors can complain all they want but I have yet to meet one that didn't get at least a week of paid vacation. Most of the people in our church are encouraged to take their vacation time and give back to the church by serving in VBC, Missions week or youth camps. Mac should be embarrassed but he honestly doesn't know that his lifestyle is beyond what most people could ever imagine.

OCTOBER 11, 2008 5:19 PM
.

Anonymous said...

Folks - as long as the revenue keeps rolling in downtown to the tune of over $1 million dollars every month, you will see more and more of this junk. ONLY when the members stop giving to the budget will the leadership take notice. The anon is right who says the members must stop giving to the rich. Give to Jesus instead. FBC Jax is not, and never was, Jesus, so you are NOT giving to God when giving to the budget of FBC Jax.

Former FBC Insider said...

The current COST to be involved in "Missions" in the Middle School Dept. alone goes like this:

Camp = $270
8th Grade Mission Trip = $175
7th Grade Mission Trip = $175
6th Grade Mission Week = $30

How many kids are being Excluded instead of Included? How many parents would LOVE for their kid/kids to be involved but cannot afford to dish out these expenses in the name of Jesus or Mac?

Years ago in the "Pre Mac" era there were 'scholarships' that were confidential and FREE for the asking. Now, you have to fill out paperwork and almost go through a credit check to get your request through TWO of those good ole committees that Baptists are known for. Many people know your financial state now instead of a loving, anonymous offering of the gift to the needy parents/kids.

Oh yeah that's right, anonymous is a bad thing at FBCJ.

Funnel this cruise money into the future generations Mac. Stay home and lay low. There are too many within your own fold that are unable to 'be a part of the family' at FBCJ.

Shame, shame.

Anonymous said...

How many children could go to those summer camps with the money that was wasted on the A group and the PR people paid to help Brunsons image? Does he get bad advice or does he just dont take it?

Mick@Keith said...

And the Preacher kept right on saying that all I had to do was send Ten dollars to the Church of the Sacred bleeding Heart of Jesus located somewhere in Los Angeles California, and next week they would put my prayer on the radio and all my dreams would come true.

Thy Peace said...

If anyone who wishes to contact NPR for a possible story on Fbc Jax Watchdog, please do so.

NPR > Suggesting Story Ideas to NPR.

Junkster said...

A post a while back on the NBBCOF blog revealed the potential for trip hosts to profit from these kinds of events. See:
this.

Excerpt:
"Ed Hill Tours offers you One Free Tour for every five full-paying passengers you enroll and up to $450 (depending on the tour cost) for each full-paying passenger not used toward a free tour. You will be paid all earned benefits prior to departure on all passengers who have paid in full for the tour including any optional programs."

While this was about Holy Land Tours, the same principle applies to other kinds of trips. The pastor of BBC stated that he did not receive compensation for hosting such tours, but it is only reasonable that a church should ask the same question when their pastor hosts an expensive trip, and a full accounting is to be expected. Unless, of course, the pastor is doing this as a personal, non-church related activity, in which case no church resources (like the website) should be used to promote the trip.

It's just common sense, not rocket science...

Anonymous said...

Most promoted cruises like this are typically revenue streams back to the pastor/celebrity. He gets a certain amount per paid head.

I must say the tone deafness of this one is unbelievable. If he's listening to consultants he needs to fire them.

Ultimately most mega-church preachers surround themselves with a wall of legalistic power controls and wealthy entourage who only want access to the celebrity. Pay for play. And don't think this is any different.

My cousin is a pastor of a small but growing congregation in a wealthy suburb and he is often shocked at the tickets and things offered to him. I have enjoyed some great seats with him at amazing sporting events. Sufferin' for Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Narcissim: 'Websters Dictionary':

1.self love; excessive interest in one's own appearance, comfort, importance, abilities, etc.

2.Undue dwelling on one's own self or attainments.

Anonymous said...

Dear former f b c insider(huh) get your facts straight! There are scholarships a plenty for any child who wants to go! If you don't know that then you are not who you claim!

flboy said...

Mrs. Debbie is the newly elected (chosen)sec. of the IMB BoT. I wonder if this trip will conflict with an IMB BoT meeting. I hope no one thinks she will miss this trip for a a BoT meeting. She would get more attention on the cruise. Isn't that the reason she is going on the trip? Just wondering.

FBC Jax will someday have to pat the price for Brunson and crew. It is going to a price that will hurt the church for a long long time to come.

As a soon to be resigned IMB missionary,I wonder if the IMB would like to have the money going to be spent on this cruise. I know some missionaries who are living less, MUCH LESS because the funds for their work are drying up. What jokes the Brunsons and the FBC Jax crew. the real problems is that God is not smiling.

RWP

Anonymous said...

Can anyone imagine the church at Ephesus marketing such a thing for their more wealthy members?

Maybe they did and that was another reason they earned a rebuke in Revelation for losing their first Love.

But notice what the Lord said to the church as Smyrna. Shall it be so for us.

Matt

Richard said...

Anything in the following post I stand to be corrected on. I’m 54 years old now and I’m depending a lot on a 45 year old memory as a pre-teen. I am hoping some of you REAL long timers with memories left will remember some of this and help me along.

In 1964, Dr. and Mrs. Lindsay built a 2,500SF home in a very middle-class neighborhood in Arlington. It was the same middle-class neighborhood in Arlington that I grew up in - the Lindsays were our neighbors. Although we were not members of FBC (our Presbyterian minister lived down the street too!) many members of FBC were their neighbors also. He was, so to speak, a shepherd who lived amongst his sheep. I have no idea who paid for the house; for all I know a wealthy member paid for it. Not the point. If a wealthy member DID pay for it, I am quite confident it was disclosed to the congregation.

Till the day they both died they lived in that home. At some point they added onto the back of the house (a den I believe) which gave them approximately 3,000SF of home in a middle-class neighborhood. As I remember, the Lindsays had three or four children. I know their son tragically passed away a month before his dad did. I can remember they entertained in their home quite often.

I don't consider a 3,000SF home in a middle class neighborhood to raise a family that size and entertain as much as they entertained too ostentatious. Undoubtedly most of the entertainment was church related anyway. No doubt Mrs. Lindsay hosted many “women’s circle” meetings in her day. Did they need a mansion in Deerwood to live among the elite? Did the blessings and successes of the Lindsays or FBC entice them to personally “show off” these blessings and successes? Heavens no! Not even if the church or the Lindsays themselves COULD afford it! I have no recollection of where Dr. Lindsay Sr. lived, nor do I have any idea where Jerry Vines lived.

I wonder how many FBC members live in Deerwood? Not saying there AREN’T any; just that I bet there aren’t many.

As a teenager I worked in a gas station in the neighborhood where the Lindsays traded. Boy, those were the days! I can remember Dr. Lindsay always drove a large car, but remember Dr. Lindsay was a large man. He wouldn’t fit too well in a Ford Falcon. For some reason a Chrysler comes to mind. Mrs. Lindsay always drove something relatively simple. They were both very cordial and nice when they came in. Neither one would be caught dead driving some shiny flashy expensive car.

My father was a highly regarded businessman in town. He was never rich; he had his good years and his bad years. My mother was the epitome of the Carol Brady type housewife. Dad always admired Cadillacs but drove Oldsmobiles all of his life. He could have easily afforded to buy a Cadillac if he was inclined to. However, he told me before he passed on that he couldn’t imagine driving up to a potential client in a fancy car and, as he put it, begging for work. Although my parents could have afforded a big house in Deerwood, they stayed right there in that Arlington house until we “children” grew up and left.

How on earth can Mac get up in that pulpit and literally BEG for money when he himself lives the opulent lifestyle that he does? I don’t get it. And there are hard working Christian men and women in the congregation struggling to make ends meet, even in a GOOD economy. And they believe his rhetoric and GIVE it to him!

This is what DA BOOK teaches us? I can’t quote chapter and verse, but I don’t THINK so.

In the past couple of years the world has watched several large corporations implode, and the root cause for all of it was GREED. Unfortunately the day is not far away when some of these large mega churches, up to and including FBCJ, are going to implode and fall also because of the same root cause … GREED.

OK, I’ll stop now.

Poor in Jax said...

To Anon 7.04
I know Former FBC Insider and she is who she claims. If you took the time to read Insiders posts you would see that. But we all know that you cant deal in facts, when you want to follow Mac. It must be hard to brush your teeth in the morning with all that egg on your face.

Anonymous said...

Anon. 9:04 PM "How can Mac get in the pulpit and beg for money?" Make that a demand.

Arrogance and greed pure and simple. And he knows he'll get it!

Former FBC Insider said...

In response to 7:04,

Reread, "Now, you have to fill out paperwork and almost go through a credit check to get your request through TWO of those good ole committees that Baptists are known for. Many people know your financial state now instead of a loving, anonymous offering of the gift to the needy parents/kids."

You can call it scholarships. I call it a world of difference after Mac came. It became an application for charity. I saw the new process for myself on behalf of several families who couldn’t afford for their kids to be involved in church activities. Their embarrassment at having to show others in the church (the two committees) their finances and having to respond to the reason they could not afford to pay for themselves was really sad. It was demeaning. Many chose not to go through the process. They chose instead for their kids not to be involved. That’s the shame of it.

To be one of those families and to see the other ways that Mac is spending God’s money has to be a slap in the face. It has to sting. It should hurt the rest of the congregation as well, but most don’t know the process themselves. They think that when “scholarships” are available, that it still means it is an anonymous gift given in love. Not so anymore.

It shouldn’t be a monetary decision whether to have your kids involved in church or not, especially at FBCJ where the money is being spent on such brazen ideas as cruises that you call Missions.

Anonymous said...

Never forget. The people who go on this cruise are "special". They want you to know they are "special" or they wouldn't take part in something like that with the suffering all around them. Special what was that? Some kind of count thread on the blankets? Special food, special wine. But only for the "special". If you were the pastor of FBC Jax with all the people in that church hurting financially, would your conscience allow YOU to go on a cruise like that? Just wondering. Talk about shoving peoples faces in it. Talk about actions speaking louder than words.

Anonymous said...

its real. it was up on the eye mags at church today

Anonymous said...

what was on the imags

Anonymous said...

"Many chose not to go through the process. They chose instead for their kids not to be involved. That’s the shame of it. "

Former,

I understand your heart on this and applaud it but I have a different perspective.

It is a GOOD thing they do not go through the process so their kids will not be influenced by this "church".

Get your children out of there,people.

Besides the wrong doctrine and praxis at FBCJax that your children are being taught, there is also the class distinctions that should not be.

For example, if you went through the process, your kids would be the 'scholarship' kids. The class distinction is there. The paperwork is there for all time and too many folks talk. Children do not need this and it is not how the Body of Christ functions. They are getting a skewed view with this process of 'scholarships'.

My church is still doing the old fashioned GA camps where they go to a very primitive campsite with old cabins and spend 3 days with a guest missionary home on leave. It is not the luxurious camps we see so ofen these days affiliated with mega churches.

It is not real expensive but enough that families in financial straights just cannot afford it. I am blessed to be in a smaller church because we miss ONE GA if they do not go for whatever reason. We want them with us. They are part of our family.

This year, the WMU women decided to pay for all the GA girls to go. (This was so no embarassing situations would arise about finances). They quietly solicited donations so that those who could afford it gave to the effort. No one was embarassed and all shared with the effort. What is even more beautiful about this is that many WMU women are older and have no children to send. They lovingly give to send the younger generation.

Of course, you cannot do that when you have a thousand kids. But you can do it when you have 50.

Anonymous said...

what I said at 10:55 was harsh. Sorry. I take it back. I am just jealous of rich people.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I believe the person is confirming that the announcement of the Danube River cruise was on the image screens at FBC Jax prior to the service (where they scroll the PowerPoint type announcements), and it was also in the church bulletin.

June 14, 2009 FBC Jax Bulletin

Anonymous said...

My cousin is a pastor of a small but growing congregation in a wealthy suburb and he is often shocked at the tickets and things offered to him. I have enjoyed some great seats with him at amazing sporting events. Sufferin' for Jesus.

What a greedy cousin you have. At least you took time to enjoy a taste of the greed with him.

Anonymous said...

June 13, 2009 9:04 PM wrote: In the past couple of years the world has watched several large corporations implode, and the root cause for all of it was GREED. Unfortunately the day is not far away when some of these large mega churches, up to and including FBCJ, are going to implode and fall also because of the same root cause … GREED."

Wow. That is right on point and struck me as truth! Whoever thought GM and banks would need bail-outs from US? And now, these big churches are also asking US to give MORE so they can "minister?" They call us "giving units" to our faces and contend that the church cannot do all it is called to do because WE are not being obedient and giving enough. And if WE question how THEY spend the money the are quick to call us JEALOUS, DIVISIVE, and UNREGENERATE.

I am not jealous of rich people...only concerned about those that got rich off of MY donations (or taxes)!!!!!

If I were jealous of rich people I would be blogging about Bill Gates.

Anonymous said...

I must have missed something here because I thought Tom had joined another church. Sounds to me like you are still obsessed with Mac and FBC, Jax.

If they want to offer something like this, then it is their business (referring to the church). If you don't like it--don't go. Sounds like the advice that Tom so freely gives people that complain about his blog.

Personally I think its a waste of time but this blog post shows a much deeper problem for Tom.

Anonymous said...

There are people who have a lot of money and it is theirs to choose how they spend it. I imagine if the truth were told about most of you complainers on here you don't donate your time to do ministries in your own church so quit targeting rich people for all your criticisms.

If they want to go and have the money to do, God bless them for being blessed. I am not going to sit around and be obsessed with how much money someone else has. It will eat you alive--and obviously has done so to a bunch of people on here.

Anonymous said...

I must have missed something here because I thought Tom had joined another church. Sounds to me like you are still obsessed with Mac and FBC, Jax.

If they want to offer something like this, then it is their business (referring to the church). If you don't like it--don't go. Sounds like the advice that Tom so freely gives people that complain about his blog.

Personally I think its a waste of time but this blog post shows a much deeper problem for Tom.

June 14, 2009 3:38 PM

We are to point out to others what is not of Christ and has NOTHING to do with His Body meeting together. Thank goodness we still have the freedom to point out error!

There is nothing wrong with wealthy folks spending their money as they so choose. Why use the church to promote such things?

There IS something wrong with the Body of Christ promoting such things as somehow godly. Mac uses church resources to promote an exclusive trip that benefits him and his wife. I am a bit shocked that more folks do not see the problem with this.

But then, they pretty much handed over their church to him and a few yes men. And now they will not get it back. You either follow Mac blindly or get out.

Perhaps folks should go and read what is the purpose for the church in the NT. It seems they do not know.

I do not go to FBC Jax either. But with tears in my eyes we need to let professing Christians know (because they are being taught wrongly) that such things are not what the Body of Christ is about. They obviously do not know or they would not still be there supporting it.They really do think they are a church and not an enterprise. They just do not know any better. And they do not know any better because they do not seek the Kingdom first. They allow only mere men to teach and interpret scripture for them.

My hope is that such blogs will drive them to scripture to show them how they are supporting wolves. And they will discover how the true Body of Christ operates. And they will get out of these business enterprises that masquerade as churches.

Anonymous said...

yNo one is obsessed with how much money someone else has, or spends for that matter. Nice try at getting off topic!
The issue is the mission of the church and spending the offerings wisely. Especially in a down economy when people are hurting. Especially when the pastor brow beats those who are doing their best to make ends meet, while he lives high on the hog.
Aren't we to be an example to the community with our actions?
By the way, WD stands for With Discernment.

Doug said...

It will not be this blog or any one person that will bring this church, pastor, and its all his followers down to their knees.

It will be and must be GOD's divine intervention.

You can blog, complain, interject, file lawsuits all you want but until your prayers seeking his direction and HIS will in this matter will it ever be addressed.

It will not be man to correct this man and/or others within the Baptist Mafia,

It shall be GOD, and him only!

I am not saying efforts are wasteful, they just have to be GOD inspired, God Led, and with prayer and as directed from our loving savior.

Believe me, he will direct your paths.

Remember this;
PROVERBS CHAPTER 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

It works! I know first hand.
Praying for us all.

Anonymous said...

I agree anon. I have been praying consistently that God's will be done in FBC Jax and in our SBC to expose these charlatans and bullies. I believe, and pray, that God is using this blog to reach the nation and inform his sheep. Let's not put God in a box. Why can't he use Tom and this blog to shine the light on abusive pastors and on churches who are robbing Him? Be careful about attacking Tom. He may be "God's man" for such a time as this.

I still don't see the church leaders being humble, open and honest and more transparent. So maybe God will use this blog, lawsuits and whatever else, to expose these wolves in sheeps clothing. Just sayin... Who am I to judge. May God bless you and keep his hand on you, your family and this blog, Tom.

Thy Peace said...

BECAUSE IT MATTERS ~ FREEDOM IN CHRISTIANITY [Dani Moss] > The Church Holocaust Through One Person’s Eyes.

Please read the above post. It contains excerpts from Christa Browns's book "This Little Light".

It shows how not only was Christa raped sexually, but spiritually and soulfully. It is truly sickening.

Where is God in all this? Why is Grace only shown by the Church to the abusers but not to the victims?

This is one of the primary reasons why there is so much hypocrisy and why ordinary people do not trust Church officials. May God have mercy on their souls on Judgement Day.

Anonymous said...

":It will not be this blog or any one person that will bring this church, pastor, and its all his followers down to their knees.

It will be and must be GOD's divine intervention.

You can blog, complain, interject, file lawsuits all you want but until your prayers seeking his direction and HIS will in this matter will it ever be addressed.

It will not be man to correct this man and/or others within the Baptist Mafia,

It shall be GOD, and him only!"

Doug, God is Sovereign. I think we have to understand that God allows many things. The fact that FBCJax operates outside of Biblical precepts and godly praxis and God allows it should put the fear of God in every person there. They should question what they are supporting and 'who' or 'what' they are worshiping.

Very few of our churches operate as a true Body. Most folks do not know that because they do not know anything different. And therefore the Lampstand is removed and they are social organizations that slap on Christian make up. They honestly believe they do great things for God. But they don't because WE can do NOTHING for God.

I am not so worried about Mac as I am the blind followers in the pews. It is for them that we should speak up. Those who say, "Let God handle it" do not know scripture. There is a reason the Epistles were included in the Canon. God expects US to keep the Bride pure. He gave us instructions and warnings for that purpose.

Ironically, Doug, blogging has brought much evil in our churches to light. And folks are leaving in droves even though they will tell you it is not so. It is not the unbelievers leaving. It is the deeply spiritual who fear God and long for a Body of True believers.

There is a very quiet reformation going on. And many are leaving the man centered institutions and buildings that we call churches. But the Holy Spirit dwells in believers. Not in a building or institution.

Anonymous said...

"Why can't he use Tom and this blog to shine the light on abusive pastors and on churches who are robbing Him? "

Like the Assyrians to punish wayword Israel.

Anonymous said...

And the delusion continues--not at FBC, Jax but on this misguided blog.

Dude said...

Thank you for this information.

As a strong supporter of the Brunson's and of course MY wonderful church FBC Jax, I think that this might be a great vacation trip to spend with some fantastic church members.

Thanks again Tom.

Signed,
Another Happy "FBC Jax Cult" Member

Anonymous said...

"folks are leaving in droves even though they will tell you it is not so"


So true..... Like that one poster (kinda crudely) said, these mega-pastors will tell you it's raining while they are urinating on your leg.

Simply put, they're liars.

Anonymous said...

misguided blog???? Are you kidding me? Or are you blind, naive or just clueless??

Please enlighten us as to the misguidedness here. evidence, please. (can't wait to hear this.)

Former FBC Insider said...

Anonymous June 14, 2009 2:14 PM,

That's the way is should work, your WMU ladies sacrificially giving out of love to the GA girls. That's "Jesus with skin on".
No peer pressure, no division of the haves and have nots. Kids don't need any help with name calling and labels.

It can be done for the hundreds of kids at FBCJ as well, due to the number of wealthy givers there. It was done that way in the past. Now you have to 'apply' to get that donor's donation. I feel sure the donors don't know that.

Anonymous said...

Nice to hear from Ergun Caner unannounced. Promoting himself, Mac Brunson, Liberty University and his upcoming books to what has proven to be a very rich, very generous and very gullible demographic. The members of FBC Jax.

And why do churches die? No, it is not the worship style or the color of the carpet, which is what pastor's say is the problem because those things are admittedly so insignificance to the church's purpose. It makes members, who Caner says many are "crazy", seem petty and immature and critical of insignificant things.

Let me give Mr. Caner and Mac a few more really good reasons to add in their next book as to why churches die: Charlatan preachers, love of wealth, marketing firms like the A-group, history lessons from the pulpit, lack of accountability of the leadership to the people, poor stewardship of budget, the control of the church given to the pastor and a select few yes men, and anyone who raised kids at FBC Jax KNOW it is very clique-ish. And yes, it was that way long before Brunson arrived. Social status, money, "closeness" to the celebrity pastor, how much one gave, all impacted our children as they were growing, trying to see something different in church from what they saw at school. If you weren't part of the "in" group, it was a very difficult place for a young person. That, Mr. Caner, and abusive bully pastors whose appetites for wealth and branding of their family (Caner even mentioned working with Wills!?) is what these guys are all about. Malachi 3:10 calls it "robbing God" and it puts the leader (priests who are doing so) and the whole nation (all the members) under a curse. (If you believe the OT applies)

Those churches that are "dying" due to the reasons Mac and Dr. Caner say they are dying for, could be "saved" by a loving, kind, pastor who preached the whole word (even the New Testament) lovingly and who followed Matthew 18 when an issue arose.

And don't forget tha churches die when the pastor calls a disagreeing member a sociopath, takes and promotes ultra luxurious Danube cruises, receives big land gifts, nepotism, uses the JSO and SAO to out any anonmyous dissenters, etc.

Should be a great second book. Or do you think Mac and Dr. Caner might just place 100% of the blame of why churches die...on US. The ones that give the money to allow them to write such books in their "spare" time while we are paying them thousands to work and not write books or preach at conventions or conferences.

And you all were down there laughing and applauding this nonsense. Homer was right. In the end times, they (US) will just want our itchy ears tickled.

I understand why Dr. Caner would want to promote Mac, but why taint Liberty's reputation in such a manner? Sheesh!

Doug said...

ANON June 14, 2009 10:37 PM;

I know it is hard to understand this Trust GOD, Allow GOD to handle our conflicts.

I agree that something has to be done. I am just speaking from a real life experience and a practical applications on how I dealt with a very similar church related matter.

There is no way one, two, ten, or one hundred men can do this along. You MUST pray for GODS sole direction to clear up something like this up.

Otherwise, all efforts are and will be in vain.

I trust GOD 100% and will continue to so as I am led against those within the Baptist Mafia!

I know exactly what Tom and other are going through and am Praying for Tom and his family as he encounters way to much for one man to handle alone.

God Bless

Anonymous said...

As a strong supporter of the Brunson's and of course MY wonderful church FBC Jax, I think that this might be a great vacation trip to spend with some fantastic church members.

Thanks again Tom.

Signed,
Another Happy "FBC Jax Cult" Member

June 15, 2009 7:38 AM

Maybe if you are real lucky, you might be able to sit next to Mac and Debbie at dinner one night. You will actually get to talk to him one on one! Oh, I know how this must excite you to be so close to a professing Christian celebrity! He will actually know your name now! You must be overcome with anticipation.

Just keep giving your money and trying to get into the inner circle. It will pay off eventually if you never ever disagree with him in a real and meaningful way. Just agree with everything and it will work out for you.

And don't read Matthew 6. It will ruin everything for you.

Anonymous said...

Off Topic
Mr Rich,

Would you please post this message with the following websites.

www.ToServeJesus.com
www.FaithPleasesHim.com

They are designed to help Non-Believers to believe and Believers to increase their faith. No Church Affiliation. Will Never Ask for Money.

Thanks

Anonymous said...

"Social status, money, "closeness" to the celebrity pastor, how much one gave, all impacted our children as they were growing, trying to see something different in church from what they saw at school. If you weren't part of the "in" group, it was a very difficult place for a young person"


Yep! And this is part of the reason (among other reasons) that young people bail from the faith as soon as they hit college, many never, ever to return. so, so sad. They put up with the above at their schools then they face it at church, too.

Anonymous said...

"Those churches that are "dying" due to the reasons Mac and Dr. Caner say they are dying for, could be "saved" by a loving, kind, pastor who preached the whole word (even the New Testament) lovingly and who followed Matthew 18 when an issue arose."

And remember, churches can be dead and have 20,000 attending. They can be dead and have 50 attending.

Anonymous said...

Readers - I was just reading a book review about Wade Burleson's book "Hardball" and found these criteria to fit this blog and the FBC Jax response quite well. What do you think?

"Throughout his book, Burleson reveals what many already know about the well-entrenched fundamentalism of the SBC, such as:

1. Some of the most hostile, unscrupulous people one can ever encounter are driven by religiously-masked political power.

2. Church leaders who espouse love and unity — and claim a higher commitment to biblical authority — can be very unloving and divisive people.

3. Fundamentalism has no room for dissent. Asking honest questions and challenging the ethics of those carrying out a fundamentalist agenda are considered signs of disloyalty.

4. Fundamentalists are punitive toward those who disagree with them or stand in the way of their goals.

5. Otherwise good people can become complicit in fundamentalist efforts out of fear, ignorance or opportunism.

6. Fundamentalists like to do their deeds in darkness. Secret meetings, false rumors, and stifled or controlled information are strangely excused in the name of biblical fidelity. Ends justify ungodly means.

7. Ultimately, fundamentalism is about gaining or retaining power rather than about theology, spirituality or anything else.

8. Fundamentalists can’t stop. The circle is always narrowing; the noose is always tightening. When original “enemies” are gone, enemies are created out of one another.

In Hardball Religion, Burleson gives example-after-example of these realities of fundamentalism that he has seen up close."

Anonymous said...

All of you who have claimed that Mac and Debbie are in this because they love money, wealth and power and fame, I was listening, but not believing. Trying to judge them for myself based on what they did and not on what this blog says. But after this cruise promotion, I can't deny that their own ongoing actions prove to me that you were right all along. What will it take for others to get the picture?

Anonymous said...

"Readers - I was just reading a book review about Wade Burleson's book "Hardball" and found these criteria to fit this blog and the FBC Jax response quite well. What do you think?"

In order for the 8 points to work, folks have to follow a leader who is just human and ignore scripture. Otherwise, it would never work.

The worst evils against folks are done in the Name of Jesus Christ.

As a friend of mine recently wrote about the 'institution' of religion:

"People like to belong to clubs. They provide the sense of community missing from modern society. But for most of them, to ask them to leave is like asking them if they’d like to drift alone in outer space. And sometimes that’s what it feels like. But then you notice that you’ve “drifted” from a cramped, airless capsule to a whole planet of light and freedom. Tough journey, great destination."

Anonymous said...

And IF Mac and Debbie really do love money, then of course it would only be logical for them to sincerely believe anyone who criticized them is only "jealous." And for others that read this, and who also really love money, they would also think others must be jealous of the money. This is their mindsets: "We all love money, so anyone who talks about money is really just jealous of the money."

Makes sense they feel this way, but it only exposes their hearts. News flash: many of us are content and grateful for the blessings we have and are not jealous of others' success. We do however, remain concerned about any baptist pastor who uses tithes and offerings to build his own personal wealth and family brand instead of ministering the love of Christ.

Why does our church spend so much on advertising? Is that the new evangelism? Is that the new "church growth" stragegy? No. It is all spending big bucks to bring in more giving units. FBC Jax isn't the only one, they are just the biggest and most brazen one in our city. And the one with the most abusive, offensive and angry pastor flaunting it the most.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone here listen to Casting Crowns?

The reason why I ask is because they've written several songs about these "high-minded," cliquish, materialist and otherwise worldly churches. They sure have alot to say about these type of churches. Their songs really ministered to me when I ditched First Baptist Dallas (BEFORE MAC LEFT becuase I couldn't take it anymore).

Thy Peace said...

The Wartburg Watch > The Next Billy Graham Goes To Prison?.

Anonymous said...

Thy Peace - don't forget to link to the article right before the Gilyard. It is very good asking "It's 10:00 a.m., do you know where your pastor is?" and it discusses how much time these guys spend on other money making endeavors while they are being paid a salary from the church. They have large staffs but always share how busy and over worked they are. It discusses the secrecy regarding salaries. Pretty on topic stuff for this blog.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if Jimmy Smyrl is going on this cruise. Didn't one of his blog posts criticize our churches for these kinds of things. Or did Honey tell him to take that post down and to "get on board" both literally and figuratively.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog - any plans to take a cruise on the Danube? Maybe Detective Hinson gets an all expense paid trip to protect the Brunson's from people taking pictures? But then who would be guarding the mailbox?

And if you mention you might want to take such a cruise...is that grounds to open a criminal file against you? Oh, I forgot, that was only opened to get your IP address and they already have that.

What about me? Will this post alone be considered threatening so that they will "investigate me" for expressing a desire to sign up for the cruise. Can I go if I want to, without being a part of the group? Hmmm. What if one of the insider's going is really a spy for the Watchdog?

So many questions. I bet the JSO and SAO will be busy after reading this one.

I love river cruises. Especially the jungle cruise at Disney World. Those animals look so real.

Oh well. Instead of giving money to the homeless shelter and food bank I think I will book me a Danube River cruise. And I may even start twittering.

Nothing illegal about that is there?

No, I am just kidding. Don't investigate me. I can't afford such a cruise and wouldn't waste my money even if I could. This post was written in jest to remind us of how paranoid some people and the JSO can become over bloggers.

Don't tase me bro!

Anonymous said...

The Wartburg Watch is a great blog. They, like more and more folks are 'getting it' that Christianity as it is presented in this country is nothing but crass enterpriseand the building of dynasties for a few.

Quit buying their books, DVD's and going to their conferences. It is all about business marketing using Jesus for profit.

Can you imagine Paul charging for a conference? Selling his writings for profit? Running a separate ministry on the side as a personal non profit to sell stuff?

Wake up folks.

Thy Peace said...

The Wartburg Watch > It'S 10 AM -- Do You Know Where Your Pastor Is?

Anonymous said...

This is really pitiful, but not unexpected. This is a way the Brunsons can take expensive vacations and be lauded like celebrities, and can get paid. (Oh now, they'll say they didn't receive a dime but don't you believe it.) And what do you bet that Courtney and Trey and their spouses end up on the cruise too? And I too noticed the part in the advertisement about the wine. I've heard some of Mac's sermons against any kind of alcoholic beverage so now just why would he even agree to go on this cruise that serves alcohol? Oh, I know. He won't partake. Hahaha! What truck did we fall off of?

Anonymous said...

Speaking of the arrogant Jim Smyrl - check out an article he writes accusing young leaders in the convention of wanting to be big shots in the convention while he himself has no such interest:

http://www.christianindex.org/2271.article

Then, when a reader gently tries to set Jim straight (since Jim admittedly did not even attend the event)- check out Jim's response below in quotation marks.

Here is the url to the response to Jim's letter:

http://www.christianindex.org/2315.article

NOW HERE IS JIM'S "LOVING" RESPONSE WHICH TELLS US MORE ABOUT JIM AND HIS AMBITIONS THAN HE REALIZES:

"Editor’s Note: The Index asked James Smyrl to briefly respond to the above letter writer’s concerns. The following are his comments. – J.W.

“Although my time in ministry precludes me from entering a lengthy debate or entering a perpetual diatribe in the world of blogger babble, I am inclined to respond to much response from my recent article. My last article used, by way of example, the young leaders at last year’s convention. This was merely an illustrative detail that served the overall theme of a predominate number within this microscopic movement who are seekers of affirmation.

“If there are those pundits who disagree with this ‘judgment’ please take a moment and examine the fruit that fell from the tree at the young leaders meeting at this convention. It appeared the theme from each speaker was affirmation. Rankin, Avant, Draper and the others in the parade all seemed to have analyzed the majority of their audience well and preached to their felt need of ministerial insecurities. Our current leadership is in no danger of a takeover.

“The absence of insightful organization, lack of proper promotion and consistent condescending content of the meeting served as yet another demonstration that those seeking places of leadership need more time sitting at the feet of our heroes.”

What an arrogant, unloving, wannabe, you know what.

Anonymous said...

It is clear to me personally from those writings that Jim Symrl may aspire to be "important" in SBC circles. Unfortunately, it is my opinion that he does not possess ANY (not even ONE) of the qualities of the men he deems "heroes." Interesting that he only deems "heroes" those men that were in fact "big shots" in the SBC. Ironic isn't it Jim, that you say you desire to only preach the word while others aspire to positions in the SBC. Yet you claim to have made heroes out of men who in fact were in top positions in the SBC. And allege that these other men should spend more time at the feet of the these heroes. Why not at the feet of Jesus, Jim? Disgusting. More time at the feet of these men/heroes is needed? You brown nosing suck up wannabe!

Me thinks Jimmy boy wants to be a leader with much influence in SBC circles. Too bad he hitched his wagon to Mac Brunson. Probably thought it the shortest route to the "big time" if you came out of FBC Jax. What a miscalculation that turned out to be.

Like Ted Kennedy's Chappaquidick, will be Smyrl's blog posts and bullying while at FBC alongide Millionaire Mac, Honey and Maurilio. Whenever he decides to run for anything, the blogosphere will be there to shed light on this guy's past failures at his previous churches, his indefensible articles, his smarmy pseudo-intellectual garbage responses, and his arrogant bullying.

I would start a blog about him, his calling Catholic priest cult leaders, his complaining about the one mosque in Jacksonville, his demand we sever ties with Lifeway, his criticizing a man in church who came dressed up, and on and on. But no one would read such a blog or even care about this wannabe. But if he runs for ANYTHING, EVER, I just might fire up www.jameslsmyrlexposed.blogspot.com

Thy Peace said...

Loyal Heart Ministries [Jim Smyrl] > Culture Commentary > Politics and the Pew [pdf].
Kingdom waste in the form of Vatican like structures, Cruising for Jesus, and Concerts for cash does not begin in the deacon s meeting or pastor s study. Edifices housing marble floors, fine furnishings, and gold inlayed art work are the product of children s ministries that instilled in little hearts that spirituality must be aesthetically elegant in order to honor Jesus. Jesus cruises are not the result of a search for creative ministry, but the natural outgrowth of student ministries that birthed a generation believing spiritual mountain tops can only be reached when one pays to escape the weekly regiment of responsibility. Entrance prices paid to shout with over compensated musical ministries do not emerge out of a high standard of quality in the assembly, but rather from a desire for gyrated emotions even if the cost extends to a void of sound doctrine. Expenditures on candies for kids or coffee for big kids is not viewed with the same scrutiny as pastoral salaries or staff sabbaticals, for the pursuit of a pleasurable Christianity unifies the pew with the heart of politics.

As we enter into the heat of debates over government spending and appalling cost factors for toilet seats, let us look to our own spending of Kingdom funds. The next time you pay to be spiritually nourished by entertaining music ministers, write a check for Jesus cruises, sign over property for the aesthetic pleasures of our children, or fund a spiritual mountain top excursion for your teens, make sure you are holding yourself to a higher standard than those who manage national resources. They will give an account of what they wasted by our standards at the poll. We will give an account of what we wasted by Jesus standards at the judgment.

Anonymous said...

Dear Dr. James L. Smyrl: If the shoe fits...

Noun: wannabe

- someone who wishes to be or do something, but lacks the qualifications or talent; an overeager amateur

Anonymous said...

Thanks Thy Peace!

And I wonder how much cash was forked over to Ergun Caner to drop by and speak Sunday night and make racist and stereotypical comments about african american and latino worshippers. While the good old boys belly laughed and guffawed like donkeys.

Anonymous said...

"And what do you bet that Courtney and Trey and their spouses end up on the cruise too?"


YOU BETTER BELIEVE THEY WILL BE THERE!!!! They all went on the luxourius trips here at FBC Dallas. For instance, I DARE them to deny Trey and Wills weren't on the Greece trip buying rings for their girlfriends. This is fact!

Anon said...

Does anyone have a link to the Ergun Caner "speech" from Sunday night? I can't find it on FBC's site. I've got to hear this one with my own ears.

Thanks!!

Anonymous said...

Oh my. Now we know where all FBC Jax commenters get their material:


“Although my time in ministry precludes me from entering a lengthy debate or entering a perpetual diatribe in the world of blogger babble,"

Translation: I am busy working for the kingdom saving souls while they are sinning by blogging. So, I am much more righteous than they are.



" I am inclined to respond to much response from my recent article. My last article used, by way of example, the young leaders at last year’s convention. This was merely an illustrative detail that served the overall theme of a predominate number within this microscopic movement who are seekers of affirmation."

Jim swallowed his thesarus to impress folks. And could NOT resist responding no matter how busy he is saving souls!

“If there are those pundits who disagree with this ‘judgment’ please take a moment and examine the fruit that fell from the tree at the young leaders meeting at this convention. It appeared the theme from each speaker was affirmation. Rankin, Avant, Draper and the others in the parade all seemed to have analyzed the majority of their audience well and preached to their felt need of ministerial insecurities. Our current leadership is in no danger of a takeover."

They HATE Rankin and have been trying to have him fired for years. There are code words here: Felt needs. But Jim, FBC Jax uses 'felt needs' in their marketing and operations all the time.. All mega churches do. What on earth was Mario the marketing guy all about? Customer service. Felt needs. You are just as guilty, friend.

Jim, your arrogance and condenscention reek from the page.

“The absence of insightful organization, lack of proper promotion and consistent condescending content of the meeting served as yet another demonstration that those seeking places of leadership need more time sitting at the feet of our heroes.”

We have hero's? Pray tell, who ARE they? Patterson? Vines? Mohler? Brunson? Gaines?

Seems the young guys are asking the wrong questions and need to know their proper place.

We have no hero's. Just depraved sinners saved by grace like the rest of us. Too much putting men on pedestals. But then, it is to Jim's benefit that he defend the big wigs. Keeps him in a job.

Anon in Jax said...

Hurry, hurry step right up. It's cruisin time with Mac & Deb. The sooner you pay up, the closer to Mac's stateroom you're guaranteed.

It will be a "...leisurely paced trip for those who love history, food and wine, architecture, music and diverse cultures in a blend of the best of Eastern and Western Europe." Pricing will be around $2700, exclusive of air travel to get to Budapest, Hungary. The cruise will be on the new "River Beatrice", described by Uniworld as their "...new, ultra-luxurioius" river cruise boat. Its facilities include "luxurious staterooms, with 80% having French balconies, more junior suites than any comparable ship, and a spectacular owner's suite provide the ideal sanctuary for a restful night’s retreat....All staterooms and suites have made-to-order English Savoir beds draped in the finest and highest thread count Egyptian combed-cotton linens, and cashmere/wool blankets."

You can rub elbows, rub shoulders, and take pictures of Deb without being labeled a stalker.

Oh yeah, it's a Mission Trip.
So maybe pack a Bible.

Anonymous said...

From Smyrls article:

"Second, I cannot imagine Vines, Rogers, Patterson, Criswell, or Bush in a round table discussion over their exclusion from leadership. These and other valiant warriors of the faith were too consumed with fighting for the cause of Christ to worry if their names appeared on the list of committee member recommendations at the annual meeting."

Jim, you are too young to know and only know what these guys have told you about their rewritten version of the CR.

They were MOST definitly plotting and planning a huge takeover of the SBC for POWER. I mean, how old do you think Patterson was in the late 70's? What do you think he was doing while president of Criswell that the trustees wanted to fire him? (This is the infamous airport meeting where Charles Stanley told Bo Sexton that anyone who went against him at his church either was fired or died of cancer)

He was traveling all over the country telling everyone how evil the leaders of the SBC were and we must throw them out. In the meantime, Criswell was busy selling tiny busts (shoulda been a bobble head)of his head to raise money for his a life size statue of himself in the college rotunda. (My hero)

Don't forget the back room meetings planning how they would take over and in 10 years time have all their people on every committee and as trustees for every entity. They ruined folks, planted rumors and even went so far to lock Dilday out of his SWBTS office.

They used inerrancy as their battle cry to gain power. You were not there. I was. And I supported it until I started seeing what it was REALLY all about: Power and position. Six figure salaries and jobs for friends and family.

Patterson has been one step of the firing ax all the way. He has been saved several times by those who are too embarassed to admit he really is an embarassment. He gets to stay so they can save face as he was their frontline guy with Pressler.

Ever wonder who Russ Kaemmerling is? Do a google search sometime.

There is much more. Many good folks got their lives ruined by these 'heros' who are really plotting jerks building a private dynasty that we would all pay for.

And Jim, you are one of their products. So is Brunson and Gaines.

Anonymous said...

Check it out!! Russ Kaemmerling and Paige Pattersan are brothers-in-law. VERY interesting......

Anonymous said...

In hindsight, it does make sense. Not only would they replace all the "liberal" trustees and leaders, they would all serve as SBC President, and at Lifeway, and at the annuity board, and promote each other's books and live like kings. Which is exactly what happened with all those that "led the resurgence." And now these guys like Brunson and Gaines come in behind and will do whatever it takes to keep the power and wealth they inherited. And the next generation of "preacher boys" want in on this gig. It puts guys like Jim Smyrl in the proper perspective now. Brunson and Gaines already have their millions...now Smyrl must try and get his.

Poor In Jax said...

Jim Smyrl's driveling diatribe reminds me of the late William F. Buckley, but William F. Buckley knew full well what he was saying and what he meant as well. Jim Smyrl on the other hand, is just vomitting words.

"Buckley delighted in perplexing as well as edifying readers with his intimidating arsenal of what he called "out of town words." In Buckley: The Right Word (Random House, 1996), he wrote, "I am often accused of an inordinate reliance on unusual words, and desire to defend myself against the insinuation that I write as I do simply to prove that I have returned recently from the bowels of a dictionary with a fish in my mouth."

He then listed some of the more arcane words that regularly appeared in his syndicated column, "On the Right." Drawing on that list, we now offer--for the benefit of word lovers, Buckley admirers, and students preparing for the SAT--the William F. Buckley, Jr. Vocabulary Quiz:

albescent
analogue
attican
auto-da-fe
cartesian
chiliastic
credenda
deracination
dithyrambic
dysgenically
epigoni
eremitical
eschatological
excogitation
ferula
fons et origo
fusilier
hegemonic
periphrastic
satyagraha
tergiversation
velleity
To check the definitions of these words, visit any good-sized English dictionary, such as The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language. That said, you may have to rely on a Greek dictionary for epigoni ("a second-rate imitator") and attican ("a characteristic of ancient Athens"), a Latin dictionary for credenda ("articles of faith") and fons et origo ("source and origin").

But then why, you're probably asking, should anybody care about such unusual words--words that our readers are unlikely to understand? Here's how Buckley justified his sesquipedalian ways:

Because just as the discriminating ear greets gladly the C augmented 11th when just the right harmonic moment has come for it, so the fastidious eye encounters happily the word that says exactly what the writer wished not only said but conveyed, the writer here defined as a performing writer sensitive to cadence, variety, marksmanship, accent, nuance and drama. WHAT of the reader who misses the refinement? Well, what of the listener deaf to the special reach of the C augmented 11th?

That reader has the usual choices: he can ignore the word; attempt, from the context, to divine its meaning precisely or roughly . . .; or he can look it up."


Jim, we choose to IGNORE YOU!!

Anonymous said...

Check it out!! Russ Kaemmerling and Paige Pattersan are brothers-in-law. VERY interesting......

June 15, 2009 4:52 PM

Yeah, and Old Russ was a trustee and was convicted of fraud in his business YET was allowed to stay as a trustee during the investigation. He was found guilty.

Patterson's other brother in law is the president of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.

Check out Dorothy Patterson and see how many boards she is on.

It's a family affair

Anonymous said...

Patterson's son, Armour

http://sbctoday.com/2007/12/08/christmas-poetry/

Read this on Dorothy Patterson's official website. Note: She had a midnight buffet with Yassir Arafat. Now tell me she is not Hyacinth Bucket

http://www.dorothypatterson.info/about.cfm

Anonymous said...

I thought Nepotism was illegal. Or at least unethical. Well, I guess we see from whom the Bakkers (I mean Brunson's) take their cue.

Anonymous said...

"In hindsight, it does make sense. Not only would they replace all the "liberal" trustees and leaders, they would all serve as SBC President, and at Lifeway, and at the annuity board, and promote each other's books and live like kings."

The plan was 10 years for a complete takeover and cleaning the ranks out. Including profs at seminaries, etc.

With their guys being elected everyterm as SBC Pres they figured they would be in control by that time. And the SBC presidents were handpicked by the ruling few each year. No surprises until Frank Page.

And they worked hard to stack the deck even at the state level committees.

Anybody wonder how Al Mohler became a seminary president at 33? Did you all know he worked as a fundraiser for a liberal president? And he was not always into patriarchy as he promotes now as GOSPEL. He 'changed' when it was convenient and it would help his career.

Anonymous said...

Sounds like the old boys club to me. Just follow the money trail. Send in $25 and receive a prayer handkerchief or support me on my missionary journey. They fail to tell you they are going First Class all the way. It will get you nothing to support them. You will just be out $25 or more.

Solomon asked for wisdom and knowledge not money, not a great estate, not death to his enemies. Boy did he get wisdom and knowledge...just read the Proverbs, they explain and reflect what Ministry today is all about. The old adage to whom much is given much is required...that explains a lot to me and indicates where these self promoting millionaires belong...at the rear. If they would follow the example of George Mueller or Mother Theresa there may have been some chance for them as pastors. They couldn't be a sergeant in a good Army. Did you know most (not all) never served in the armed forces...the ministry got them an exclusion from the draft. Sad commentary on most ministers that are 55-75 years old. They really cared about their country didn't they? Just about as much as they do about their congregations. Just keep the money coming in is their bottom line motto. Disgraceful conduct...no good conduct badges for them. They were too busy serving...themselves. God deliver us from Mega-Pastors and Mega-Churches. And yes, I served in the military myself, thank you.

Anonymous said...

No wonder I got the ax several years ago. They couldn't afford to have a "real" Bible believer around. Get rid of the Priesthood of the Believer...it's the priesthood of the preacher that counts, and controls!!! A lot has been made clear to me now. Thanks to the blog., I see what happened to me.

Anonymous said...

Hyacinth Bucket???

ABSOLUTELY!!! my gosh, I completely forgot about that great show. DP is definately HB (plus 300pounds)

Great call Anon 5:45!!!!

Anonymous said...

Now, go here and click on Safari presentation and Wall Trophy presentation. These are in Pecan Manor, the presidents home at SWBTS that Pattersons renovated and employ a pastry chef. Your CP dollars at work. (they say a 'donor' in East TExas paid for the addition but I wonder if he/she paid for the vast new china settings, decor and pastry chef? And WHO is this mystery donor. They always have mystery donors)

http://www.paigepatterson.info/speakingschedule.cfm

Oh, Ben Cole used to have receipts on his blog (He used to be mentored by Patterson) showing that SEBTS paid for his taxidermy bills. Your CP dollars at work.

Oh, I forgot. This is one of our 'hero's' according to Smyrl.

Anonymous said...

"Did you know most (not all) never served in the armed forces...the ministry got them an exclusion from the draft. Sad commentary on most ministers that are 55-75 years old. They really cared about their country didn't they?"

Good because there should never be a draft. We also shouldn't have been involved with Vietnam or Korea.

Not a sad commentary at all.

Anonymous said...

OH MY GOSH! Check out that poor Zebra ole PP blasted. What a pig. He's all proud of himself. He's as disgusting and shameful as his glutton wife.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:04. According to your philosophy the whole world would have been under German rule, either after WW1 or WW2. I believe every man should serve in the military unless he is disabled. A standing army is what made this country great. If these "real Heros" had not fought for this country, you would not have the freedom to speak about your beliefs today!! God bless our military and God preserve our country.

Anonymous said...

Interesting to see how everything mac is doing is getting splattered on many other leaders in the SBC. They all need to meet with Mac at the SBC convention in Louisville and reign him, Deb and Maurilio in a little bit. Mac is tainting all the good old boys who now are being scrutinized more than ever due to Mac's lack of leadership and brazenness in flaunting his ways. These guys were able to do what they did with only a few "recalcitrants" noticing. Mac has the whole world noticing his antics. So maybe Mac is God's man in all this. God is using Mac to show us all what has been going on in the SBC for far too long. And maybe God is using this blog as the spotlight on this stuff?

When will the people in the pews wake up and either stop giving to these "heroes"; or better yet, the "kings" start being more thankful of the donations (not demanding them), open and honest and transparent with their finances, and more restrained in their kingly ultra luxurious lifestyles.

Which do you think is more likely? The people stop giving, or these leaders become more transparent and accountable? We know the latter won't happen until the former occurs.

Cut off the revenue stream and these "heroes" with their insatiable appetites for wealth and power, will leave!

Anonymous said...

I am appalled that the pastor would even think about taking church members on a cruise and that the church web site would advertise such an event.

I heard he recently went to lunch with some church members and to a very nice eating establishment. How dare he do this and not open it to all the church family? What's wrong with this man.

If he is going to do anything with anyone in the church, he should do it with everyone. There is a principle of fairness and it is not fair that only some get to know the pastor in a way most, if not all, of us would.

How dare he live and profit off anything, doesn't he know he is leading a "not for profit" ministry? How unchristian of him for being so insensitive to the things of God.

This is the last straw, I'm leaving and finding another church. A church where things are more like I like them.

Thy Peace said...

This comment by Pastor Wade was in response to Peter Lumpkins on Wade's blog latest post Paul Chitwood's Idea of a Formula Change?.
-------------------------------------
Wade Burleson said...
I would be happy to remove Dr. Patterson's name if he writes me and tells me he did not recommend Flockhart. Otherwise, I will stand by the FBC committee member's statement to me.

By the way, SBC President Johnny Hunt did also recommended Flockheart. Hunt and his church also "restored" Flockheart" after his "fall," and recommended him to the church that he now pastors. As far as I know, both Flockheart and Scroggins are wonderful men.

My point is that seminary Presidents are playing key roles in getting their men to the mega-churches of the SBC.

Blessings,

Wade
Tue Jun 16, 09:58:00 AM 2009
.
-----------------------------------

Anonymous said...

This is the last straw, I'm leaving and finding another church. A church where things are more like I like them.

June 16, 2009 9:12 AM

Not before they have milked it dry with nice severance packages. You do realize that Patterson has had free (and very nice) homes for almost 20 years. Add to that a nice 6 figure salary, tons of perks, (you probably have to buy your own home office...he doesn't) and you get the picture. high salary no big expenses. Not even a car payment.

Anonymous said...

What is an Egyptian combed sheet. Im so jealous. I want to start my own please donate to my danube trip fund. Ive had a hard year, a float down the river would be really helpful, especially if i had me a little drinky pooh and a egyptian combed sheet to sleep on. Good grief. If i start a donation page, i'll let you all know. Scuse me, I got the hiccups.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:12 AM:

Now typically I wouldn't defend Mac for anything. Nope. But eating lunch with some ppl from the church? Come on! Where is this a problem? How is this not fair? Open it to the whole church? Uh, ok, that would have to be at the world's biggest restaurant. My word, do you care if your pastor eats a meal with some people from the church. Who else would he eat with? Would you feel better if he were eating with some, uh, ahem, ladies of the night?

Anonymous said...

I am deeply wounded and offended by the spiritual insensitivity of the people who write on this blog.

Jesus told us that we were to be encouragers and exhorters and to help those in need. Since none of you are obviously close friends of Mac, here are some things that might actually be true:

He could actually be penniless and in need of all the money he is allegedly making.

He might be struggling in his marriage and needs to take his wife and few select friends on a cruise to spend quality healing time together.

He may be a very insecure individual who needs praise and adoration.

He may actually want to be a bosom-buddy of Tom Rich but feels rejected by Tom.

His extended family may also be penniless and in need of the jobs he has given them.

Maybe after you folks consider these things you will be more kind and loving to Mac. I'm sure he would appreciate it.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:21 PM

Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Head Off.

Well, we've got ONE Mac defender in tha' house!

Richard said...

Anon 12:21 PM

"Jesus told us that we were to be encouragers and exhorters and to help those in need."

There ya go! That's what the issue is! Mac has interpreted this to mean ENGORGERS and EXTORTERS! Spelling wasn't his strong point in school and he just misunderstood!

Ya think?

Question to the masses - does anyone know if there is a deed restriction in Deerwood saying that any doghouse must be built with the same architectural design as the home, and it MUST have air conditioning?

RIP Tammy Faye.

Anonymous said...

"What is an Egyptian combed sheet. Im so jealous."

Oh you have not lived until you have slept on these.

Combed cotton

Extra-soft cotton. When cotton or another fabric is "combed," the shortest, additional fibers of a batch are removed. The result produces high-quality yarns with excellent strength and softness.

Egyptian cotton

Considered the best cotton in the world. Cultivated mainly in the Nile River Valley in Egypt, this grade of cotton boasts the longest and strongest fibers. Used in high-end towels and linens.


I hear this cottom is handpicked by beautiful virgin maidens.

I want to be a mega church pastor when I grow up.

Richard said...

Anon 12:52PM

Oh my ... Egyptian Linen.

"Considered the best cotton in the world. Cultivated mainly in the Nile River Valley in Egypt, this grade of cotton boasts the longest and strongest fibers."

" ... handpicked by beautiful virgin maidens."

From Wikipedia (only because it was quick and convenient,) "Egypt is predominantly Muslim, with Muslims comprising about 90% of a population of around 80 million Egyptians."

Oh my ....

Are you listening FBC's Mr. Smyrl? Will you remember that fact as you are drying yourself off cruising down the Danube in the name of Jesus?

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to offer a Nile River Cruise ... you could go right down there in the middle of the "heathens" and have the possibility of winning a lot more souls that way.

Or are they only good enough to make your towels?

I am biting my tongue rather hard also with regard to the "beautiful virgin maidens" comment. That is a rather touchy subject around Southern Baptists right now and I can just thank God that Darrell Gillyard is in prison.

Anonymous said...

For all you bloggers and posters who think a blogger has the right to remain anonymous, you might want to read this:

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/the_web/article6509677.ece

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Here is the Anon's link:

Ruling Kills Blogger Anonymity

Anon failed to mention this is a UK court ruling. But interesting article nonetheless.

Anonymous said...

Oh dear, our commenter might also want to know that the UK has strict laws publishing ANY government information. Which means that Peter Wright of MI6 had to MOVE to Austrailia and have his book published there because it was against the law in England as he was accusing Roger Hollis, head of MI6 of being a communist spy.

Our cousin's laws on government information are more different than we can imagine. They are not as free as we are in making cases known or in accusations against public workers. This was a big problem after WW2. Government information is deemed property of the Crown. Not the people.

What our pro Mac commenter is also not taking into consideration is that in England, bloggers about pastors like Mac, would be protected by the Crown.

Unless of course, Mac was a secret agent for MI5 or 6. :o)

Arce said...

Two issues regarding the Brit detective's blog and his anonymity:

First, the issue at the bar was whether a private entity could be prevented from releasing the name of an anonymous blogger. It was not whether a government agent could properly use a subpoena to get that information for private use or private abuse.

Second, the blogger was a public employee with particular responsibility to maintain confidentiality of the information he was publishing on the blog, thus violating the law and potentially the rights of criminal defendants. This means that the public employer had a right to investigate if it chose, and to determine the identity of the blogger, because of his violations.

Nothing about the Brit case has any relevance or applicability to the WD, nor would it have even if in a potentially relevant U.S. jurisdiction (state if in state court, federal if issues of federal law or the U.S. Constitution were involved).

Anonymous said...

Do they dump sewage in the Danube River? If so it will be difficult to tell if the "stink" is coming from the river or elsewhere. Sorry, but this blatent commercialization just "stinks". How are these people (mega preachers in general) going to explain using the "ministry"(?) for profit. Do they EVER preach anywhere for free? Do they have no fear of what Jesus thinks about their so called "profit driven" ministries (?). Where in the Bible does it even hint that a preacher is to hire a PR firm to sell the preachers "brand". You know brand is a lot like "marked". I mark these self-promoters as exactly that self-promoters that look for the money. And sell out for a "mess of pottage".
This previous list of "Heros",(all of them) makes me want to puke! No I don't mean vomit. That's too nice a word. I mean puke. As in Rev. chp.3 vs. 16: "I will spue thee out of my mouth". And this is what younger preachers are looking up to? And what church members listen to. Well, they are poster boys for how to get the money. Glad I don't follow a man....I would be doubting my salvation by now. Come quickly Lord Jesus. This place called earth is getting worse by the second.

Anonymous said...

codduSome preachers arn't smart enough to be "secret agents". They can't keep their mouths shut.

Anonymous said...

Anon - why bother linking to British laws? Why not go ahead and post links about what the Chinese government would do to anonymous bloggers. They are really good role models for silencing dissent. Just hope and pray that during the current administration your rights to blog or speak openly about your faith won't be silenced just as you seem to hope the WD's blog could be silenced.

Some in power want to silence conservative radio since they find it unjustly critical and divisive of our leaders, and therefore, of our country. Those Christians who find this effort dangerous and outrageous WOULD support silencing the WD. How hypocritical and illogical for those Mac supporters who actually think this way.

They never want conservative voices to be silenced, yet they want the WD to be silenced by the government. No wonder Christians are dismissed in the scientific and political and academic communities. No systematic thinking, only self interest and blindly following a few leaders they deem "heroes." Every Christian should be outraged at the church's efforts, and that of the JSO and SAO, to silence this blog. If you aren't, then don't complain about what may be coming to churches and conservatives who dare speak out against injustice in the future.

Anonymous said...

Move to another church or be quite. You are destoring the fellowship of the church. Also for you to come against your pastor is unscriptural. The Bible is clear concerning the judgment of those that come against the man and or men of God.

Richard said...

Anon 5:28PM and the rest of the kool-aid drinkers ...

This blog is NOT destroying the fellowship of the church, it is trying to INFORM you that your pastor and the leadership of the church are destroying the fellowship. You are paying for them to do it and when (not IF) the fall comes, the FELLOWSHIP will be blamed for it.

Man, there are some of these kool-aid drinkers that have been chuggin it instead of sippin it. Kinda like, appropriately for this blog, WINE. If you sip it you might even enjoy it. But start chuggin the stuff and your logic kinda goes away.

Anonymous said...

The world is a lot closer to the end than the beginning. In the not too distant future the pain and suffering of believers during the Tribulation Period and those that admit they believe in JESUS during the Trib will pay with their heads being removed. Think about it. How did we get this far so quickly and how much further America will slide down is anybody's guess. The silence of the Church is deafening. The leaders are more interested in fame and fortune than they are in preaching the whole council of God. They don't want to offend anyone. Just I'm ok you are ok. I'm glad the rapture will spare most of the believers this final wave of murder, mayhem, and devilish work. You haven't seen anything yet. But, things are going to get worse and worse until that last day is upon this earth.

Man has dug his own hole to be buried in...pride and arrogance and the love of money is the destroyer. Humility is a thing of the past and could be removed from the dictionary for all the good it accomplishes today. One sad commentary: Money will not spare the individual. They may be even more vulnerable. So if religious leaders think acquiring money will insulate them from the world, they are wrong. They will just have sold out for nothing.

Anonymous said...

I only sent in the link for conversation. I didn't say where I stand on any of these issues so just calm down and read some other opinions. Sometimes a differing viewpoint or opinion might even expand your mind and strengthen your own argument.

Anonymous said...

guluideThe world is a lot closer to the end than the beginning. In the not too distant future the pain and suffering of believers during the Tribulation Period and those that admit they believe in JESUS during the Trib will pay with their heads being removed. Think about it. How did we get this far so quickly and how much further America will slide down is anybody's guess. The silence of the Church is deafening. The leaders are more interested in fame and fortune than they are in preaching the whole council of God. They don't want to offend anyone. Just I'm ok you are ok. I'm glad the rapture will spare most of the believers this final wave of murder, mayhem, and devilish work. You haven't seen anything yet. But, things are going to get worse and worse until that last day is upon this earth.

Man has dug his own hole to be buried in...pride and arrogance and the love of money is the destroyer. Humility is a thing of the past and could be removed from the dictionary for all the good it accomplishes today. One sad commentary: Money will not spare the individual. They may be even more vulnerable. So if religious leaders think acquiring money will insulate them from the world, they are wrong. They will just have sold out for nothing.

Anonymous said...

"Move to another church or be quite."

I confess. I do not know how to be 'quite'

"You are destoring the fellowship of the church."

I have done many wrong things but I cannot think of one time I have 'destored' anything. I might have but one would have to know what it is.



"Also for you to come against your pastor is unscriptural. The Bible is clear concerning the judgment of those that come against the man and or men of God."

I did not know that God had 'special men' in the New Covenant. You know, some went against Darrell Gilyard who has a title that I think would qualify him in your venacular as a 'man of God'. I guess those victims who stood in judgement of him are in big trouble. The 'judge' should also be in fear, I guess.

Can you please give me chapter and verse on your position? Or are you still at the public library?

Mac: Your followers are delightful. It is becoming obvious how you get them to give you loads of money.

Anonymous said...

"I only sent in the link for conversation. I didn't say where I stand on any of these issues so just calm down and read some other opinions. Sometimes a differing viewpoint or opinion might even expand your mind and strengthen your own argument.

June 16, 2009 5:53 PM

Uh huh. Sure. What an interesting way to start a conversation. Let me remind you of your original comment:


For all you bloggers and posters who think a blogger has the right to remain anonymous, you might want to read this:

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/the_web/article6509677.ece

Perhaps you thought the UK was University of Kentucky? :o)

Anonymous said...

Individuals that speak the truth do not have to be ashamed of what they say. Men that have to strike back always have something to hide. When a mans behavior please the Lord even his enemies look up to him. Prov 22:1 "A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favor rather than silver and gold". Sounds pretty good to me.

Anonymous said...

"The world is a lot closer to the end than the beginning. In the not too distant future the pain and suffering of believers during the Tribulation Period and those that admit they believe in JESUS during the Trib will pay with their heads being removed. ... I'm glad the rapture will spare most of the believers this final wave of murder, mayhem, and devilish work. You haven't seen anything yet. But, things are going to get worse and worse until that last day is upon this earth."

Nope. Pre-trib eschatology wasn't invented until the 19th century. The Gospel will continue to spread and things will get better. While Satan is bound to an extent, the world will not be completely transformed because he's not completely bound. The millennium is symbolic of the time between Christ's first and second advents. The tribulation is symbolic. And one day Jesus will come back in glory, the dead will rise and be judged by Christ according to principles of righteousness. The believers to eternal glory; the unbelievers to eternal damnation.

You should become amillennial like me.

Plus- The Rev. Wade Burleson thinks more people will be in heaven than hell.

http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2009/04/will-there-be-more-people-in-heaven.html

Here's another post of his on eschatology:

http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2009/05/fifty-ways-to-leave-left-behind-roger.html

Anonymous said...

Escatology is a huge waste of time to discuss. The bottom line is it is going to happen. There are problems with all views. There are glitches that do not make sense in each view. I think there is a reason for that.

The pre mill view does sell books though. It is like an adventure series.

The amill view has a problem with what to do with the nation of Israel. Which should not exist.

Anonymous said...

I mean should not exist from the standpoint of where it is and who was and is against it.

To this day, Abba Eban, says that the USSR was planning to vote against Israel in the UN. (He was there and talked to the Russian delegation who said they would NOT vote for Israel)

They cannot explain why they voted for it. There is no earthly reason for it and they regreted it ever since.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:19 You forgot that Jesus was pre-trib. If you think the world is getting better you arn't watching the news or reading the paper. You also misunderstand the scriptures...there is a thousand years between the first and second resurrections Rev 20:6 "and shall reign with him a thousand years" vs 7 "and when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison". vs 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which the book of life and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works". This is no symbolic state or belief if one believes what the Bible claims. You read the same about this in Daniel 12, 1-3. Its not imaginary it really will happen just as the Bible states.

As far as the number in Heaven vs Hell no one knows for sure as that is not revealed. You could argue the broad vs the narrow road, but that still does not tell you the size of either being more or less than the other. The Bible is literal, it is only your understanding that is faulty and symbolic!

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:59 You are correct. The age of the Gentiles started after Acts 7 when the Nation of Israel rejected Jesus as Messiah. They will have an opportunity during the Great Tribulation and 144,000 Jews 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes is martyred for accepting Jesus. Kind of hard to miss that point altogether.Sort of like the Jews clock stopped and the Gentiles started. Now our clock has to stop one day (the rapture) and the Jews clock starts again.

Anonymous said...

Anon.10:05 you are correct. And, we are very close to the Rapture.

Anonymous said...

Doesn't it stand to reason that if the leadership of FBCJAX believes just the pastors and leadership are God's Gifts to the church that we should be tripping over each other to sign up for this cruise?

What King said and others report was taught also in some of the Sunday school classes is buggin me to death!

It does not say in scripture that that one gift of the Spirit is God's gift to the church. All the spiritual gifts are. One is not more status than another and these verses actually put it plainly I think.

1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:59 You are correct. The age of the Gentiles started after Acts 7 when the Nation of Israel rejected Jesus as Messiah. They will have an opportunity during the Great Tribulation and 144,000 Jews 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes is martyred for accepting Jesus. Kind of hard to miss that point altogether.Sort of like the Jews clock stopped and the Gentiles started. Now our clock has to stop one day (the rapture) and the Jews clock starts again.

June 16, 2009 10:05 PM

And Rafe will be flying the anti christ around the globe.

Don't get your escatalogy from guys who make millions on romantic adventure novels about it.

There are a TON of inconsistences with that position. Such as the temple is already destroyed. Jerusalem has ALREADY been trampled by Gentiles, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

One thing I have noticed is that the SBC has focused on this and some other secondary doctrines to the detriment of serious salvic understanding. It is a shame.

Anonymous said...

Anon.9:09 What's your point? Better yet ; What's your problem. So far all you have done is try to put doubt in the minds of Bible Believers. The Bible is not a romantic adventure novel. I say "Bible Believer" because the Bible teaches man, not the other way around. As to your "serious salvic understanding", that and $5.00 may get you a cup of Starbucks. The Bible speaks for itself and doesn't need another pseudo intellectual to mess with it. Thanks. By the way you might fit in the SBC there are a lot of pseudo intellectuals in it's organizaion. Some at FBCJ.

Anonymous said...

"So far all you have done is try to put doubt in the minds of Bible Believers."

Doubts about what? That you will get a mark to buy food with? That the locusts are black helicopters?

That Rafe will be flying the anti christ around? That Babylon will be rebuilt?

Come on. Escatology is not a salvic issue. There is a reason we do not know for sure exactly how it will happen. We just know it will happen. And we know a lot of people spend a lot of time talking, preaching and teaching on this topic when they cannot know for sure exactly how it will play out. It is a diversion. Just be ready for however it happens.

Anonymous said...

Anon. 11:39 Your problem is you don't believe the Bible!!! Read it! We KNOW exactly what God wants us to know. Go back to the Bible and to what IT says. I am not impressed with your arguments and am not suprised at your lack of understanding. God blesses man when man respects His Word. He gives knowledge as man asks for it and as He chooses. I will take the Bible literally, word for word over mans opinions and time. You are the one that brought a "salvic issue". As you said the SBC had serious salvic issues. My point is Who cares! By the way I am not a Southern Baptist nor am I an Independent Baptist. I am a Bible Believer!

Anonymous said...

"I will take the Bible literally, word for word over mans opinions and time."

So, I guess that means you are greeting your brothers with a Holy Kiss.

Anonymous said...

Anon. 11:39 Your problem is you don't believe the Bible!!! Read it! We KNOW exactly what God wants us to know. Go back to the Bible and to what IT says. I am not impressed with your arguments and am not suprised at your lack of understanding. God blesses man when man respects His Word. He gives knowledge as man asks for it and as He chooses. I will take the Bible literally, word for word over mans opinions and time. You are the one that brought a "salvic issue". As you said the SBC had serious salvic issues. My point is Who cares! By the way I am not a Southern Baptist nor am I an Independent Baptist. I am a Bible Believer!

June 17, 2009 12:58 PM

If this is the case then why do scholars not agree on escatology? Are all the amills going to hell because they are amills?

Anonymous said...

I took one of Dr. Stanley's cruises to Alaska a few years ago. It was my fifth week of cruises in that area (and the lowest quality by far other than Dr. Stanley).

My conclusion was that unless you thought that a trip with Dr. Stanley was worth about $1200 each that you should take a commercial cruise--and leave from Vancouver rather than Seattle. The trip just works better if you leave from Vancouver.

If you do one of these cruises, you should figure out when the evening sermon and singing is and be sure that your dinner seating ends before that starts. They seemed to have only one seating for that and if you were not there early you did not get in. Usually the ships have two evening shows so there is a place for everyone.

They sold out the ship with people left on the waiting list--so the cost must have been about right.

I don't think that this trip plans to have only FBC Jax people on it--but they would likely be happy if it turns out that way.

Maybe we should take a collection and send WD. (Not as a part of the FBC group of course.) This might give him a chance to talk with his former pastor. It will be a lovely (if relatively expensive for most) trip.

Anonymous said...

My worse nightmare....being stuck on any ship with the Brunsons, much less having to pay for it.

Anonymous said...

"I took one of Dr. Stanley's cruises to Alaska a few years ago. It was my fifth week of cruises in that area (and the lowest quality by far other than Dr. Stanley). "

Did he preach on divorce? :o)

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:24. Scholars do not agree on just about everything...thats what makes them SCHOLARS!! Amills will be in heaven just like pre and post. It has nothing to do with entrance into heaven. The blood is the only mechanism that counts.

Anonymous said...

Anon 3:50,

What a pompous Pharisee you are. Someone like you isn't worthy to even tie Dr. Stanley's shoes.

But then, you are probably just a typical Southern Baptist.

Richard said...

List of Christian Evangelist Scandals

Copied from Wikipedia.

This is a list of scandals related to American Christian evangelists. (Roman Catholic clergy and high-profile leaders from New Religious Movements are not within the scope of this list.)

1. Aimee Semple McPherson, 1920s–40s: Prior to recent events, the most famous evangelist scandal involved Canadian-born Aimee Semple McPherson in the 1920s, who allegedly had an extramarital relationship and faked her own death as a cover. She later claimed that she had been kidnapped, but a grand jury could neither prove that a kidnapping occurred, nor that she had faked it. Roberta Semple Salter, her daughter from her first marriage, became estranged from Semple McPherson and successfully sued her mother's attorney for slander during the 1930s. As a result of this she was cut out of her mother's will. Aimee Semple McPherson died in 1944 from an accidental overdose of barbiturates.

2. Lonnie Frisbee, 1970s–1980s: Lonnie Frisbee was an American closeted gay Pentecostal evangelist and self-described "seeing prophet" and mystic in the late 1960s and 1970s who despite his "hippie" appearance had notable success as a minister and evangelist. Frisbee was a key figure in the Jesus Movement and was involved in the rise of two worldwide denominations (Calvary Chapel and the Vineyard Movement). Both churches later disowned him because of his active homosexuality, removing him first from leadership positions, then ultimately firing him. He eventually died from AIDS in 1993.

3. Billy James Hargis, early 1970s: Hargis was a prolific author and radio evangelist. Hargis formed American Christian College in 1971 in order to teach fundamentalist Christian principles. However, a sex scandal erupted at the College, involving claims that Hargis had had sex with male and female students. Hargis was forced out of American Christian College's presidency as a result. Further scandals erupted when members of Hargis' youth choir, the "All American Kids", accused Hargis of sexual misconduct as well. The college eventually closed down in the mid-1970s. Hargis denied the allegations publicly.

4. Jim & Tammy Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart, 1986 and 1991: In 1986, evangelist Jimmy Swaggart began on-screen attacks against fellow televangelists Marvin Gorman and Jim Bakker. He uncovered Gorman's affair with a member of Gorman's congregation, and also helped expose Bakker's infidelity (which was arranged by a colleague while on an out-of-state trip). These exposures received widespread media coverage. Gorman retaliated in kind by hiring a private investigator to uncover Swaggart's own adulterous indiscretions with a prostitute. Swaggart was subsequently forced to step down from his pulpit for a year and made a tearful televised apology in February 1988 to his congregation, saying "I have sinned against you, my Lord, and I would ask that your precious blood would wash and cleanse every stain until it is in the seas of God's forgiveness."

Swaggart was caught again by California police five years later in 1991 with another prostitute, Rosemary Garcia, who was riding with him in his car when he was stopped for driving on the wrong side of the road. When asked why she was with Swaggart, she replied, "He asked me for sex. I mean, that's why he stopped me. That's what I do. I'm a prostitute." Rather than confessing to his congregation, Swaggart told those at Family Worship Center that "The Lord told me it's flat none of your business.

5. Peter Popoff, 1987: A self-proclaimed prophet and faith healer in the 1980s, Popoff's ministry went bankrupt in 1987 after James Randi and Steve Shaw debunked his methods by showing that instead of receiving information about audience members from supernatural sources, he received it through an in-ear receiver.

Richard said...

List of Christian Evangelist Scandals (cont’d)

6. Mike Warnke, 1991: Warnke was a popular Christian evangelist and comedian during the 1970s and 1980s. He claimed in his autobiography, The Satan Seller (1973), that he had once been deeply involved in a Satanic cult and was a Satanic priest before converting to Christ. In 1991, Cornerstone magazine launched an investigation into Warnke's life and testimony. They investigated Warnke's life, from interviews with over 100 personal friends and acquaintances, to his ministry's tax receipts. Their investigation turned up damaging evidence of fraud and deceit. The investigation also revealed the unflattering circumstances surrounding Warnke's multiple marriages, affairs, and divorces. Most critically, however, the investigation showed how Warnke could not possibly have done the many things he claimed to have done throughout his nine-month tenure as a Satanist, much less become a drug-addicted dealer or become a Satanic high priest.

7. Robert Tilton, 1991: Tilton is an American televangelist who achieved notoriety in the 1980s and early 1990s through his paid television program Success-N-Life. At its peak it aired in all 235 American TV markets. In 1991, Diane Sawyer and ABC News conducted an investigation of Tilton. The investigation, broadcast on ABC's Primetime Live on November 21, 1991, found that Tilton's ministry threw away prayer requests without reading them, keeping only the money or valuables sent to them by viewers, garnering his ministry an estimated $80 million USD a year. In the original investigation, one of Tilton's former prayer hotline operators claimed that the ministry cared little for desperate followers who called for prayer, saying that Tilton had a computer installed in July 1989 to make sure that the phone operators were off the line in seven minutes. Tilton sued ABC for libel in 1992, but the case was dismissed in 1993, and Tilton's show was off the air by October 30, 1993.

8. Frank Houston, 2000: Frank Houston was a Pentecostal Christian pastor in the Assemblies of God in New Zealand and Australia. In 2000 he was advised to resign his ministerial credentials by his own son, Brian Houston, the National President of the Assemblies of God in Australia (and pastor of Hillsong Church), after Houston Sr. confessed that he had engaged in pedophile sexual activities with a teenage boy while ministering in New Zealand some thirty years earlier.

9. John Paulk, 2000: John Paulk is a former leader of Focus on the Family's Love Won Out conference and former chairman of the board for Exodus International North America. His claimed shedding of homosexuality is also the subject of his autobiography Not Afraid to Change. In September 2000, Paulk was found and photographed in a Washington, D.C. gay bar, and accused by opponents of flirting with male patrons at the bar. Later questioned by Wayne Besen, Paulk denied being in the bar despite photographic proof to the contrary. Initially, FoF’s Dr. James Dobson sided with Paulk and supported his claims. Subsequently, Paulk, who himself had written about his habit of lying while he openly lived as a homosexual, confessed to being in the bar, but claimed he entered the establishment for reasons other than sexual pursuits. Paulk retained his Board seat for Exodus, however he did so while on probation. Paulk did not run again for chairman of the board of Exodus when his term expired.

Richard said...

List of Christian Evangelist Scandals (cont’d)

10. Paul Crouch, 2004: Paul Crouch is the founder and president of the Trinity Broadcasting Network, or TBN, the world's largest evangelical Christian television network, as well as the former host of TBN's flagship variety show, Praise the Lord. In September 2004, the Los Angeles Times published a series of articles raising questions about the fundraising practices and financial transparency of TBN, as well as the allegations of a former ministry employee, Enoch Lonnie Ford, that he had a homosexual affair with Crouch during the 1990s. The Times spoke with several sources that claimed that other evangelists such as Benny Hinn, Jack Hayford, and Paul's son Matthew were aware that an affair had taken place. TBN denied the allegations, claiming that Ford's claims were part of an extortion scheme and that the Times was a "left-wing and anti-Christian newspaper" for publishing the articles. In 2005, Ford submitted to and passed a lie detector test on the ION Television program Lie Detector (TV series).

11. Douglas Goodman, 2004: Douglas Goodman, an evangelical preacher, and his wife Erica were Pastors of Victory Christian Centre in London. He came into notoriety when he was jailed for three and a half years for the sexual assault of 4 members of his congregation in 2004. VCC was closed by the Charity Commission but his wife Erica started a new church Victory to Victory in Wembley. The church was one of the largest in the United Kingdom.

12. Kent Hovind, 2006: Kent Hovind is an American Young Earth creationist. He is most famous for creation science seminars, in which he argues for Young Earth creationism, using his self-formulated "Hovind Theory". He has been criticized by both the mainstream scientific community and other creationists. In 2006, Hovind had been charged with falsely declaring bankruptcy, making threats against federal officials, filing false complaints, failing to get necessary building permits, and various tax-related charges. He was convicted of 58 federal tax offenses and related charges, for which he is currently serving a 10-year sentence.

13. Ted Haggard, 2006: Ted Haggard was the Pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado and was the president of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) from 2003 until November 2006. Haggard's position allowed him occasional access to George W. Bush. In 2006 it was alleged that Haggard had been regularly visiting a male prostitute who also provided him with methamphetamine. Haggard admitted his wrongdoing and resigned as pastor of New Life church and as president of the NAE. The high-profile case was significant also because it immediately preceded the 2006 mid-term elections and may have even affected national voting patterns. In January 2009, Haggard admitted to a second homosexual relationship with a male church member, Brant Hass, on CNN-TV and other national media, and when asked, would not directly answer a question about his other possible homosexual relationships.

Richard said...

List of Christian Evangelist Scandals (cont’d)

14. Paul Barnes, 2006: Paul Barnes is the founder and former senior minister of the evangelical church Grace Chapel in Douglas County, Colorado. He confessed his homosexual activity to the church board, and his resignation was accepted on 7 December 2006. He started the church in his basement and watched it reach a membership of 2,100 in his 28 years of leadership. This scandal was notable because it was similar to Ted Haggard's (above), it occurred in the same state (Colorado) and around the same time (late 2005).

15. Lonnie Latham, 2006: In 2006, Latham, the senior pastor of South Tulsa Baptist Church and a member of the powerful Southern Baptist Convention Executive Committee, was arrested for “offering to engage in an act of lewdness” with a male undercover police officer.

16. Richard Roberts, 2007: In October 2007, televangelist Richard Roberts (son of Oral Roberts), was president of Oral Roberts University until his forced resignation on November 23, 2007. Roberts was named as a defendant in a lawsuit alleging improper use of university funds for political and personal purposes and improper use of university resources.

17. Bishop Earl Paulk, 2007: Earl Paulk (no relation to John Paulk) was the founder and head Pastor of Chapel Hill Harvester Church in Decatur, Georgia from 1960 until the 1990s. A number of women from the congregation came forward during the 1990s claiming that Paulk had sexual relations with them. Some of these claims have subsequently been proven correct. Moreover, Donnie Earl Paulk, the current senior pastor of the church and nephew of Earl Paulk, had a court-ordered DNA test in 2007 which showed that he was Earl's son, not his nephew, which means that Earl and his sister-in-law had had a sexual relationship which led to Donnie's birth.

18. Coy Privette, 2007: Privette is a Baptist pastor, conservative activist, and politician in the U.S. state of North Carolina. Privette was president of the Christian Action League and a prominent figure in North Carolina moral battles. In 2007, Privette resigned as president of North Carolina's Christian Action League and from the Board of Directors of the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina, following revelations on July 19 that he had been charged with six counts of aiding and abetting prostitution.

Richard said...

List of Christian Evangelist Scandals (cont’d)

19. Joe Barron, 2008: Joe Barron, one of the 40 ministers at Prestonwood Baptist Church, one of the largest churches in the United States with 26,000 members, was arrested on May 15, 2008 for solicitation of a minor after driving from the Dallas area to Bryan, Texas, in order to allegedly engage in sexual relations with what he thought to be a 13 year-old girl he had met online. The "girl" turned out to be an undercover law enforcement official.

20. Todd Bentley, 2008: In August 2008, Todd Bentley, best known as the controversial key figure of the Lakeland revival in Florida "has agreed to step down from his position on the Board of Directors" of Fresh Fire Ministries, "and to refrain from all public ministry for a season to receive counsel in his personal life." This was after the ministry revealed he had an "unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff". The announcement came one week after Bentley's ministry announced he and his wife were separating.

21. Tony Alamo, 2008: On September 20, 2008, FBI agents raided Tony Alamo Christian Ministries headquarters as part of a child pornography investigation. This investigation involved allegations of physical abuse, sexual abuse and allegations of polygamy and underage marriage. According to Terry Purvis, mayor of Fouke, Arkansas, his office has received complaints from former ministry members about allegations of child abuse, sexual abuse and polygamy since the ministry established itself in the area, and in turn, Purvis turned over information about the allegations to the FBI. Investigators at the scene plan to conduct a search of ministry headquarters and the home of Alamo and interview children present on the compound.

22. In 2007, Senator Chuck Grassley (R-IA) opened a probe into the finances of six televangelists who preach a "prosperity gospel". The probe investigates reports of lavish lifestyles by televangelists including: fleets of Rolls Royces, huge palatial mansions, private jets and other excesses. These luxuries are purportedly paid for by television viewers who donate due to the ministry's requests for tithes. The six under investigation are Kenneth Copeland and Gloria Copeland of Kenneth Copeland Ministries of Newark, Texas; Creflo Dollar and Taffi Dollar of World Changers Church International and Creflo Dollar Ministries of College Park, Ga; Benny Hinn of World Healing Center Church Inc. and Benny Hinn Ministries of Grapevine, Texas; Eddie L. Long of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church and Bishop Eddie Long Ministries of Lithonia, Ga; Joyce Meyer and David Meyer of Joyce Meyer Ministries of Fenton, Mo; Randy White and Paula White of the multiracial Without Walls International Church and Paula White Ministries of Tampa.

Anonymous said...

I am a former member, not been to FBC since 2001. Met my wife there and we now live out of state.
After we were married, we were "required" to attend David Kayes class for newlyweds. How depressing! After about 2 months we went to a real SS class - the Freeman's young couples class. Kayes class kept telling us how much we are going to fight, what we'll fight about, how many marriages end in divorce, all the ways our marriage can fail, etc. All in the name of making us stronger.
Anyway, I always listened to Dr. Lindsay and Vines on the radio, even after we moved out of Jax. I was truly saved there and made some good friends there. Never sat under Mac, heard him on the radio and he does have a different style.
I remember Dr. Lindsay talking about how he would not go to restaraunts that served alcohol so as to not damage his witness.
Remember when he would talk about Daddies and men having cotton strings for backbones? I can hear him now saying "Shame, shame on you!"
WD, great job with the blog. I enjoy reading the different views, some are pretty intense.
I like the folks that say "if you don't like it, leave!" and "don't complain against your church staff, they are gifts of God." LOL!! ROFL!!
When Jesus didn't like what was happening at the temple, did he just go to another temple that was doing things His way? No, he cleaned house. If church staff are not operating in a Godly way and doing things that give the impression of worldliness, then then somebody needs to clean house. Wait, you are going to say it is up to God, right? You expect God to come down here and do it, or use some of His followers to do it? I can't believe how so many folks expect God to physically manifest Himself to do something about it. Are we the Body?
If this "trip" is not a mission trip and not a "church event", who is paying for the advertisement?
Can I, or anyone else, apply for a scholarship to go? How is Mac qualified to "host" a trip?

A question about WD not having access to the church By-Laws..
Are these By-Laws usually voted on annually by the congregation? And should the laws be available for review before voting? Does the church expect thousands of members to come to the library, sign out a copy, sit at a desk, and read them before the vote?
What of the legality of keeping the By-Laws hidden away like that?

I have a question about Mac taking time to write his book.
I understand Mac is given a certain number of excused absences from the pulpit and he can do whatever he wants with the time. But, during the normal workday (does any real pastor - not preacher- have a normal workday?) is Mac working on his book instead of ministering to his flock? Did the numerous church committees put in his "package" that Mac can work on books and such while in the office at FBC? And can Mac sell such books without any compensation to the church?
I am not saying Mac, or any pastor, cannot write books. But if he is on church time, using church resources, church staff, etc, then sales from that book should be shared.

If Mac wants to meet with some members at an exclusive eatery, fine, go ahead. But if Mac is too busy, or can't seem to get around to meeting some other members at the local pizza joint or a members 1500 sf home, then that is a problem.

Last comment and I'm out.
Mac wants to start a school because nobody is home anymore for visitation. Alright, let's go with that for a minute. Nobody is home anymore, so why is it so blasted important to get on TV?? Nobody is home to watch it!
I'll tell you who is home: wives whose husbands are deployed overseas, the sick, elderly, stay at home moms, how about calling those visitors from last Sunday to schedule a visit, or to just thank them for coming!

Alright, I'm done.

Bill

Anonymous said...

What a great day on this site. Now I know a bunch of details about fallen pastors and that somehow is an indictment of Mac. What a pathetic use of internet space.

If Mac wants to write a book that is his business. I'm sure the committees that negotiated his packed covered that issue and gave their approval. The church subsequently approved his hiring and his package so you folks need to calm down a bit.

Who he eats with and where is also none of your nosy business. The sad part is that many of you will say that "we pay his salary" and if the truth be told (and with your level of giving if there is any), would probably amount to 1/100 of 1% of Macs's salary. If I were Mac and had you in my church, I would offer to return your pathetic part of my salary.

By the way, if you are so worried about unethical pastors why don't you turn some of your fake righteous indignation toward the people in the pews who are sleeping around, gossiping, and backbiting on a regular basis. These are sins that are specifically covered Biblically and not something your mother taught you to condemn.

Anonymous said...

"If Mac wants to write a book that is his business."

NO IT ISN'T. It is the business of those that pay his salary. His business is to minister to the flock. Does your boss let you pursue your own intersts during working hours???

"some of your fake righteous indignation toward the people in the pews who are sleeping around, gossiping, and backbiting on a regular basis."

That is a stereotype of church ppl and you have no proof of this. If you know this to be fact, then what ARE YOU doing about it?

So all in all, you're just another thoughtless, obnoxious Mac supporter.

Anonymous said...

welllllll

speaking of folks sitting in the pews who are sleeping around

how did the discipline comittee discipline those folks?

there are very recent occurrences which would warrant it or was the discipline committee formed just to get Tom Rich?

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:30- Are you talking about Very High Profile people?

Anonymous said...

What a pompous Pharisee you are. Someone like you isn't worthy to even tie Dr. Stanley's shoes.

But then, you are probably just a typical Southern Baptist.

June 18, 2009 12:11 AM

I would not DARE go against Dr. Stanley. He made it clear to Bo Sexton, trustee of Criswell college back in the 80;s that anyone who went against him at his church got cancer, died or lost their jobs.

That man has serious power. God kills people who go against him. That is why he could get a divorce and remain the pastor of a huge church and a huge income and have a multi million dollar para church organization on the side.

Be sure and send him more money!

Anonymous said...

" But, during the normal workday (does any real pastor - not preacher- have a normal workday?) is Mac working on his book instead of ministering to his flock? Did the numerous church committees put in his "package" that Mac can work on books and such while in the office at FBC? And can Mac sell such books without any compensation to the church?
I am not saying Mac, or any pastor, cannot write books. But if he is on church time, using church resources, church staff, etc, then sales from that book should be shared."

Very good questions. What does a typical weekday look like for a mega church pastor.

For one, the mega church pastor (mcp) does NOT have the typical admin or operational duties of the typical church pastor'

Secondly, he does not have the typical sherpherding duties of the typical church pastor: visiting, counseling, weddings, funerals, etc.

They do some of that but are very selective. You are considered someone of importance if the mcp does your wedding or funeral.

So, what on earth are they doing? Some are micro managers and are very involved with their direct reports. Some are not and are less involved in that respect.

Some other things they have that typical pastors do not:

Research/production staff for sermons. Or those who help put together sermon series, etc. The pastor himself does very little in this respect compared to the old days or guys with calloused knees.

So what are they doing? Some are writing books, doing a conference, having meetings with community leaders or state, national leaders. Or important members. Playing golf, etc.

They complain a lot about being busy but if you look at their schedules, MUCH of what they are involved with has little to do with the church but only indirectly.

But, they think that by being involved in such lofty things not only promotes them but also the church since their name is affiliated with the church.

The mcp has the life of Riley with tons of help and support.Don't ever let him complain. Yet, he will.

It is a lot of pressure keeping a smiley face on all that. One scandal can mess the whole thing up and offerings dry up. They live with that everyday. But that is shallow, wrong thinking pressure. I got so sick of hearing how over worked they are. I told one to shut down his para church organization he had on the side. With publishers and deadlines, marketing conferences, etc. Know what he said? I can't,that is my retirement.

But his church promised him a six figure retirement. It is a simple matter of greed folks. Normalized, institutinalized greed. They do not see it. Most in the pews do not see it either. They have been boiled slowly.

Matt

Anonymous said...

Oh how I hope that God spits out these mega-pastors on the last day.

Anonymous said...

there are also folks that are not high profile


is adultery the undisciplined sin?

i'd like to know

Anonymous said...

Good point. Have the most recent "adulterers" at FBC Jax that have embarassed the music department - have they been given trespass warnings? Did they get a letter from the discipline committee demanding they appear before them?

Did John Blount call up the JSO and file an OFFICIAL trespass paper on the adulterer? How about the wife of the adulterer. Did SHE get a trespass paper?

I think we know the answers to these.

Anonymous said...

I think it's very insensitive to comment that some folks actions are an embarrasment to the music ministry.

That is nothing compared to the damage that has been done to the families.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:59 am. How did you come to the knowledge that people in the pews are sleeping around, gossiping, and backbiting on a regular basis? Do they openly discuss their sins in public? Strange behavior if that is happening. Why not tell the pastor so he can preach against this type sin if it is so prevelant!!

Anonymous said...

IMHO, when a man is "called" to pastor a church, then that is what he is to do: pastor that church. His focus is the people in that church. If he decides to write a book, that should be done at home, on his own time. When it takes him away from his duties of shepherding the flock, he has abandoned his "call" of pastoring his church. Much more so if he takes off on one vacation/trip after another. If God has called you to that church, then why are you spending your time on other things? Obviously, mega pastors do this because they are NOT called by God. They agreed to pastor their church solely because of the nice "package" that was negotiated to get them. In my book, anyone who would accept a "call" to pastor based on that (and not accepting the call until the package is in place) is most certainly not "called by God". When God calls you, you go, regardless of the situation in that place. You don't 'negotiate a package' in order to say yes. That alone tells me Mac, and all these other "negotiated package mega pastors" are neither called by God nor care about tending His flock - they are simply exhibiting "the love of money" which is the root of all evil. And those who are uncomfortable with their mega pastors' actions yet still give their offerings, God is going to ask you why you gave to "His" work when you either knew or were very uncertain that that is how your tithes and offerings were being spent. How will you answer Him? The charlatan preachers will have to answer to Him for their actions one day, but so will those who continued to give even after questions arose as to what those contributions were really being spent on. Think about that. Your money is irrelevant to God, but your attitude towards why you give is. Romans 14:23

D