Readers - I fully intend to tell my story.When I tell my story, it will be the entire story of what has occured regarding this blog, the legal proceedings, Comcast subpoenas, field reports, official JSO trespass warnings...all of it. It isn't pretty, and many people will be sorely disappointed at what has transpired in the last few months behind the scenes. What is unfolding is a much larger story than this blog. But I must at this point in time, let certain events run their course.
The focus of this blog will shift to dealing primarily with the rights of a person to blog anonymously, his rights to maintain his privacy, and the legal manuevers that a powerful mega church and their church administration will undertake to identify an anonymous blogger to intimidate him and shut him down...while they boldly pass deacons' resolutions that contradict their very actions.
But I have been advised that it is best at this point to not say anymore until certain on-going events run their course.
But rest assured, I will be telling the entire story in due course, so please stay tuned.
In the meantime, blessings to all.
91 comments:
Watchdog,
My first comment on your site. As you know, it has been my policy to refrain from commenting here or drawing attention to your site because of your anonymity. It was only after the trespass warning was issued, and what seemed to me to be hard ball tactics were being used against you that you received communication from me.
It was through our phone conversation that you convinced me you possessed a legitimate worrty that a powerful organization might seek to do harm to you because of the questions you were asking and concerns you were raising. This harm might involve sullying your reputation in Jacksonville, limiting your business dealings, and forbidding your family's involvment in the church were your identity to be discovered. You said to me at the time, "All I am doing is wanting answers to questions that somebody needs to ask."
What struck me about our phone conversation was your curiosity as to how administration at FBC Jacksonville came to know your identity - in fact, you were not even sure they did, but the issue of a trespass warning was a strong indication THEY were confident they knew he you were. At the time, I stated the only way they could be so absolutely sure of your identity was to obtain from your Internet provider the information. Of course, there are Federal laws and state statutes that protect a person's right to free speech - even anonymously. So, if someone did violate your privacy and obtain your private records from Comcast, then they would either have to have some powerful friends do them a favor or they would have to falsely allege some type of criminal activity and convince an honorable judge they needed your identity.
One need only look back to 1842 and a story fom the life of Abraham Lincoln to know that powerful people get angry when anonymously questioned. At the time Lincoln was a small time state politician and local lawyer in Springfield. A far more powerful politican, a state auditor named James Shields, was using his authority to the detriment of the people of Illinois - or so thought Lincoln. Lincoln wrote an anonymous letter to the newspaper, detailing the activities of James Shields and called the powerful politician a "liar" and a "fool."
James Shields then used his power and his authority to wrestle out of the newspaper editor the identity of the author of the disparaging letter. Lincoln wrote anonymously because he knew what would come if his idenitity were known. He had gone to the editor of the newspaper and requested he write the letter making his charges against James Shields under the pseudonym "Rebecca." The editor allowed it, believing it was best for all parties involved, including the people of Illinois.
However, the newspaper editor folded under the intimidation of James Shields and when Lincoln's identity was discovered, Shields challenged Lincoln to an old fashioned dual. Since dualing was outlawed in Illinois three years earlier (1839), Lincoln and the Shields crossed the river into Missouri where Lincoln survived the dual; and the rest is history.
My point is a simple one. It seems your concerns over remaining anonymous have been justified. The tactics taken to reveal your identity seem to have crossed a line. If police were involved last year, and administrators at FBC were informed that there was "no crime" in what was being written, but then this year administrators went back to police and "alleged" criminal activitiy (i.e. "stalking, "stealing mail,") you have a pattern of intimidation developing in order to obtain your idenity. I am believing the best - that someone powerful simply called in a favor. But, if someone actually invented a "criminal" allegation to get those records, then somebody, somewhere, is in deep do-do.
All I can say is this: If I were a police officer, or a judge, or a city official, or a state's attorney involved in obtaining records from Comcast in order to identify who the Watchog is, I would be sweating bullets. In my experience, Federal Grand Juries do not take lightly to the abuse of political and police authority to shut down someone's free speech. Worse, if false allegations were used as the basis for the subpoena, that in itself is a criminal act. The records should show, specifically the subpoena records, the police reports, including field investigations and open and closed cases, and the Florida state attorney records.
God willing, nobody was so stupid at FBC to establish a pattern of behavior over the course of the last several months that will implicate FBC using their influence to illegally obtain your identity. If someone at FBC actual did what it seems is required to get your identity, then this could FBC Jacksonville saga could get very interesting.
And frankly, if someone did violate the law, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of that law. There's no hiding. The excuse "but we are the people of God" is hollow.
The law is the law.
In His Grace,
Wade
The sad thing in all this is the effort undertaken by fbc leadership to uncover WD's anonymity. If only they expended about 1% of that effort in addressing some of the issues, all this would be irrelevant.
WD, I would encourage you to contact EFF.I understand they have very small staff and they may or may not take cases in bloggers rights. You could at least try it or through your lawyer. Also maybe some publicizing this might work in your favor.
If down the road, everything settles down and all the facts are known, I would encourage you to keep the blog at least open for readers. You can close comments. But at least the search engines will pick up on the articles already written.
But my guess is, fbcjax leadership are going to the next level to literally shut this blog down. Then they will have to prove slander and even if they do, only the slandered posts will come down.
God bless you WD. You have done your initial duty. Now you have to protect your rights.
Wade - excellent analysis. There is always a weak link somewhere. I doubt it would be an honorable judge, or a State's Attorney that would jeopardize their reputations and careers. Most likely, one of the powerful men at FBC Jax had a law enforcement officer do their dirty work for them. Once they realized their was nothing criminal about the blog, they had to come up with something that was criminal and accuse the blogger specifically being the perpetrator, AND that the crime involved use of the internet IP.
Wade, you may not know, but the respect for the Jacksonville Sheriff's office is very high. They are trustworthy deputies with high integrity and are proud civil servants. So, I can't imagine one of them being willing to do anything questionable to get around the law that is the Federal Cable Act. They would know they might face internal affairs investigations or questions from the FBI. So, my hunch is that the JSO officer involved acted in good faith based on a sworn affidavit, or victim statement, from someone he/she respected. They then in good faith requested the subpoena from the State Attorney. Then when Comcast responded, the bloggers name was sent to the deputy, who likely quickly realized there was no merit to the charges and no connection to the blogger or this website. Still no wrongdoing by any of the government officials to this point. However, it is undeniable that somehow, the information disclosed by Comcast to JSO made its way to the church where John Blount was able to serve the trespass warnings on the blogger. Who gave the church this information? Why did they give it to the church? And what did the church do with the information?
They obviously used the information to try and harm the man's family and reputation and "shut him down." We know they issued trespass warnings, never informed the man of any of the their charges against him or how they obtained his identity, did not allow him to speak in his defense, and then told a large group of deacons whatever they wanted to tell them about the man. At least one deacon even called the man's new church and slandered him further.
So there are many questions being raised, once again, by this blog. This time though, they are L-E-G-A-L qustions, not ecclesiastical ones. And so, answers will be obtained. The easy way or the hard way. And knowing the pride and arrogance and stubbornness of some of the staff and lay leaders, I can only imagine it will need to be done the hard way. The haaaaaaaard way.
Dog,
It sounds like you have professionals handling this for you. I hope that's the case. These are not easy issues from a legal standpoint.
You probably already know this, but I throw it out there as a caution. Just rely on what your professional advisors tell you and ignore what people mention on this blog. Pastors and other people on this blog are not trained in law. Though they are often well meaning, when they try to pontificate on the law they usually get a little bit right and a whole lot wrong. They also tend to oversimplify things and try to make everything black and white. In reality, law is mostly about ambiguity and different shades of gray.
anon - if the church tried to get criminal charges filed against the blogger so they could find out who he was to try and silence him and their initial effort failed... (Meaning a detective found no criminal activity or criminal overtones on the blog)and then later the church (or one of its staff or laymen) went back to the detective with made up criminal charges that they contended were linked to the blogger, just so they could get the detective to obtain the bloggers federally protected personal identifying information, then used that information to identify the blogger and serve trespass warnings on him and then slander him in a deacon's meeting, then THAT IS BLACK AND WHITE. A lot of "ifs" I know, but easily verifiable. And probably very likely. The who, when, what and where WILL come out one way or the other.
If this was done, then the Federal Cable Act is null and void as far as FBC Jax is concerned and local law enforcement are "above the Federal law" if these tactics are being used. I think federal officials and federal courts might find this activity very "black and white." And if I were a detective or State Attorney that was misled by the person I gave the blogger's identity to, I would be very upset. (Unless I was complicit with the plan, which wouldn't be wise to admit.)
What good are laws that protect citizens if they are not going to be enforced? Trying to stifle and chill federally protected free speech by going around federal laws, is not going to be casually winked at. This should get very interesting in the coming days.
WD - it seems John Blount has been "muzzled" also. No word from him? No emails, no phone messages, no hand delivered letters? The silence before the storm.
You wanted openness and accountability and transparency...it looks like you are about to get it. Finally.
Anon 3:48 PM said...
In reality, law is mostly about ambiguity and different shades of gray.
Is that your professional legal opinion, or are you just another one of us well meaning but ignorant anonymous blog pontificators?
WD, You do what you need to do to protect your family from charlatons. You do not oweanyone here any explanations for putting facts and questions about the propriaties of your church out there. Any elder worth his 'salt' would gladly answer publicly and make the figures and documents public, too.
The fact they did not says volumnes.
Even though most will not see it and will believe whatever the office holder tells them to believe. It is a sad situation in most of our churches.
FBC Jax and the SBC are not the only ones out there like this. It is quite common, esp in mega's.
Matt
"But my guess is, fbcjax leadership are going to the next level to literally shut this blog down."
My guess is that many mega's will employ folks do just this. They are going to have to.
But then....
Another person can start another blog. The job will be endless. Better to be open and transparant but then the profitable gig would be up for them.
Looks like Wade has now drunk the Watchdog koolaid. I find WD's writings to be the biggest bunch of BS I have ever read. The leadership of FBC, Jax could have found out his identity from numerous sources. They are way too smart to do the things you are accusing them of doing.
Folks, wake up and smell the roses. The Watchdog is a fraud and has now been found out. End of story.
Just like today, I knew he wouldn't write what he had promised and only offers some flowery explanation of his sainthood.
I have not declared my sainthood.
Just my rights to privacy.
"The leadership of FBC, Jax could have found out his identity from numerous sources. They are way too smart to do the things you are accusing them of doing."
Stay tuned, anon.
So what are your plans for FBC property when you sue them for all their worth after illegally obtained your information. What are your plans for the new school.
"They are way too smart to do the things you are accusing them of doing."
I could not help but laugh out loud at this one. If you had seen the bizarre actions I saw of many educated men in high positions you would not say such an ignorant thing. One reason for mega church big staffs is 'insultation' from the ignorant decisions of the elders. They claim their instructions were misunderstood. Many mega's have rotating doors for staffers. The old joke was 'cake' people and 'no cake' people. If there was no cake, you knew they were really fired even though everyone was told they were 'called' to do ministry elsewhere. This included everyone from staff ministers to secretaries who knew where the bodies were buried. Of course the fired minster went along to get the severance paycheck.
When you are protected, powerful and influential without any Nathan's in your life for accountability, it is amazing what you will do. You just make up new rules as you go along. And one can always find some out of context scripture to back them up. A few of my favorites:
Touch not God's anointed. (out of context)
You must have three witnesses to bring an accusation upon an elder. (Out of context when dealing with a false teacher, wolf or hirling and the "accusations"are really questions OR facts presented. This one is USED to protect ungodly, unfruitful men with titles)
You can also lie, twist and spin and most people will believe you because of your title. That is what is most damaging of all to these people. And why you rarely see transparancy or repentance. The followers actually help them stay in sin.
Matt
Matt your 11:10pm blog is absolutely eye opening and absolutely correct...The First Brunson Church of Jax fits the examples given...According to Florida Times Union newspaper this appears to be the type senario that kept Darrell Gilyard in power and allowed him to continue his abuses...Thank You Sir!!! "WORSE AND WORSE" FBC "WORSE AND WORSE!!!
anon 9:25 Have you not noticed that some of the smartest people do the dumbest things?
...According to Florida Times Union newspaper this appears to be the type senario that kept Darrell Gilyard in power and allowed him to continue his abuses..."
Yes. You are right. And I am afraid Vines is just as guilty with giving Gilyard credibility, too. He knew better but when you are hanging out with the wrong crowd (Patterson, etc) you tend to overlook certain truths.
Gilyard is a pox on their houses. An abomination.
Matt
Gilyard's trustees and deacons KNEW about his having sex with a lady he was counseling who came to him after her husband died. Talk about wolves in sheep clothing. She went to a "man of God", endorsed by Paige Patterson and Jerry Vines, and he took advantage of his office as pastor. Shame on him, right? But what about the church leaders that paid off the lady and hid it from the congregation? Shame on them!
And Shame on Mac for all the abuses listed here, but even more shame on the administration that allows it to happen. And by "the administration of" there are a couple of men in particular who KNOW WHO I AM REFERRING TO. The Bible says "be sure in this, God is not mocked, you reap what you sow, your sin will find YOU out."
And just because the word "judge" or "reverend" was placed in front of your name does not mean your deeds done in secret will not be made public and someday you will give an account for every word and deed. Good luck with that boys.
Most Christians are good hearted people who love the Lord. They love him and serve Him regardless of the praise they get or the rewards given. Please remember the good and try not to focus on the cruel side of Christians you have seen. One day the mirror on their behavior will cause them to recoil in horror. No matter what, we are ALL in the family of God and deserve to treat each other with love and respect.
Most Christians are good hearted people who love the Lord. They love him and serve Him regardless of the praise they get or the rewards given. Please remember the good and try not to focus on the cruel side of Christians you have seen. One day the mirror on their behavior will cause them to recoil in horror. No matter what, we are ALL in the family of God and deserve to treat each other with love and respect.
March 15, 2009 3:42 PM
This is the typical perspective. If one calls themselves a Christian we believe it and never check the fruit. If they love the Lord they do not consistently want power and influence over others in the Body. If they love the Lord they are not consistently greedy. They would rather die than take more and more while there are others in the Body suffering with lack.
The problem is we do not see many REAL Christians at church. We have so dumbed down what it means to love the Lord and take up our cross and follow Him that we really do not know what it means.
We ignore Hebrews 10:26-31 and all of 1 John. Or, we think sin means the real big things like Homosexuality, murder, etc. We do not know that 'without Holiness we will NOT see God'. We do not understand that our very thoughts are sinful and an abomination to God! Jesus raised the bar, folks. Now hate is murder. Lust is adultery.
This stuff is rarely taught. It is rarely taught to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That is too negative so we invent a new religion with the parts we like. Preachers cannot preach the real negative truths because most of them are not practicing what it says. It would indict them to preach it and they know it! So, they THINK they are doing great things for the Kingdom by bringing in numbers.
Most folks think the New Covenant makes salvation 'easier'. Nope. It is FREE. No law. But it is NOT easy. Jesus raised the bar. Could taking up the Cross daily be easy? Of course not. Is going to the martyrs pyre as many early Christians did, be called easy?
How is suffering for His Name easy? The point is now His Grace is sufficient. The point of the Cross is that salvation is now FREE. He took the Wrath we deserve.
We are NOT good. We are evil and until we recognize that fact, we cannot be truly saved from that evil. Saying a prayer and getting dipped does not do it.
Even in the Old Covenant, people were saved by Faith. Read Hebrews. BUT, if you read the OT closely, you will also see that few were saved. Same if you read the NT closely. Pay attention to Matt 7. And Revelation
People in our churches are biblically ignorant, like I was and still am.
we have tons of biblical resources at our fingertips for free and still folks do not know what it REALLY says. Even those who are seminary educated. Why? Because only the Holy Spirit can effect change in our hearts. Only the Holy Spirit can allow us to see truth in the Word. Even Satan knows correct doctrine.
Salvation is supernatural act. We are changed. We hate our sin. We mourn over it. But if we are saved, we are growing in Holiness. Period.
People who love the Lord do not consistently hurt others. When they do, they beg forgiveness. People who love the Lord, speak truth even if it means other professing Christians will HATE them and call them liars. They do it for the sake of the true Body.
The day is already here when missionaries from Africa and China are coming to teach us about true salvation. They really are! We need them to teach us!
We have invented a social gospel that is not biblical. They know this because they have been persecuted for their faith. They have truly counted the cost. We need them desparately to teach us true biblical salvation and sanctification. They have lived Matt 5. We have not.
Matt
BTW: If you read the OT closely, you will see that the actions of Israel and especially her priests....
maps exactly to most of our churches and pastors today. Same behavior. It is scary. And we are not even supposed to have earthly priests. We have made the function of elder into a Levite priesthood!
Matt 5:13 THAT IS A SERMON. What you said is so very very true. People hurt one another because it makes them feel better, its that simple. Christian charity is really hard to find in our day and age. The church people are no different from those on the outside. They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. You are so right about bibilical ignorance in this church age. That's why God said it was neither hot nor cold. And the numbers of souls getting saved is becoming less and less, for many see the hipocrosy within the so called church. It will get worse and worse until Jesus comes...you can count on that as the Bible declares it.
Matt...Thanks you again for proclaiming the truth to blind and dying world...Christendom is in big trouble...Your words are a light illuminating the darkness that has crept into these Churches,and sadly only the few can see the truth that you are revealing to them...Most assuredly the words penned by the Apostle Paul ring true; "Preached the Word for a time is coming when they will not endure SOUND TEACHING"...I am taking heed to your words!!!..Thanks again for the God given wisdom you have revealed..
Christendom is in big trouble...
itiswritten,
Hold on to your seat. I believe we already have God's judgement upon us based on what many of our churches are like. I know. I was one of them for many years.
When the overseers look the other way and some even promoting the likes of Gilyard, Gaines, Patterson, Brunson, Osteen, etc,
etc....God's judgement was already here: Ichabod
These churches are not flocks. They are herds. They are corporations serving the interests of man.
And those being herded in our shiney American churches are left with this:
AMOS 8
11 "The days are coming," declares the Sovereign LORD,
"when I will send a famine through the land— not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
12 Men will stagger from sea to sea and wander from north to east,
searching for the word of the LORD, but they will not find it.
I was a part of this pragmatism for so long, I will be repenting for the rest of my life for the lives I might have lead toward everlasting fire. We were doing what was right 'in our own eyes'.
God have mercy upon me.
Matt
All of this BECAUSE brothers in the Lord on both sides HAVE BEHAVED IN PASSIVE-AGRESSIVE TYPE WAYS and failed to obey the Lord about communicating with each other. If the Lord Jesus will not be obeyed, then people--even born-again ones--will libel and slander and otherwise hurt each other.
Sigh. Again.
Wade's blog > Warning: Read This Post With Discernment !!!
William Paul Young's Book The Shack is available for sale through LifeWay's website LifeWay has posted a Read With Discernment tag on the book. The book is a work of fiction. It is an allegory. It is not a theological textbook, nor is it confessional statement like the Baptist Faith and Message. It is FICTION.
What seems humorous to me is the feeling by some that it is necessary to place a Read With Discernment tag on the book. Sometimes I feel we Southern Baptists are the equivalent of second graders spiritually. Here you have a book that is Christian fiction. There is no illicit sex, no foul language, and no promotion of immorality in the book. For heaven's sake, it was written for the author's own CHILDREN. But we stamp a Read With Discernment tag on it.
But before we get all over LifeWay for the silly little tag, we must remember that the it was placed on the book after a few Texas Southern Baptists went on a campaign to get the book removed as "harmful and dangerous" to the body of Christ. In other words, LifeWay resisted the book banning Baptists and compromised with a discernment tag. Thank the Lord. If we allow Baptist Identity adherents to have their way we will wind up as Southern Baptists having an elite group of all knowing leaders who will tell everyone else what is acceptable to read.
Jim Smyrl even went so far as to say on his blog that if Lifeway didn't ban the book, the SBC should "sever all ties" with Lifeway. That is how these mega egos think things are dealt with. It's my way or the highway.
Its interesting how so many of you think yourselves to be so spiritual and spiritually discerning and everyone else is evil. We're all without merit.
Matt, I've always agreed with your assessments until now:
Explain how the following statement is not 'lordship salvation' or faith plus (fill in the blank, in your case holiness)"
'without Holiness we will NOT see God'.
OR have you already ansewered it with following:
People ... are biblically ignorant, like I ... still am."
Anon 12:36 PM,
Please read Hebrews 12:14.
To the anonymous poster named "Juris Doctor" who posted this morning:
I will not publish your comment.
But I have saved your comment, and the IP address from which it came, and I will look forward to conversing with you in the future...in a different forum than this one.
Thanks, and have a wonderful day.
anonymous 10:10 Judge not less you be judged. I've not read where anyone who is a real bible believer thinks they have any so called merit. Study to show thyself approved of God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed. I would just encourage you to study your bible as commanded and not concern yourself with what anyone else knows or does not know.
"Explain how the following statement is not 'lordship salvation' or faith plus (fill in the blank, in your case holiness)"
'without Holiness we will NOT see God'.
OR have you already ansewered it with following:
People ... are biblically ignorant, like I ... still am"
Thanks Junk for the reference!
It is amazing that some think that sanctification is a work.
Yes, I am biblically ignorant. But I have also found that much has been taught that is completely wrong and is leading many folks right into hell. Some think they are saved because they go the church, walked an ailse and got dipped. But where they supernaturally changed? Because salvation is a supernatual work of our Savior. And we fight the flesh until Glory.
Yes, You are saved by Grace alone. Faith alone. And if you are truly saved you are changed. It may happen slowly but you are changed. And you are growing in Holiness being purified (sanctified) and sometimes it can look like death to the world. But HE WILL conform you to His IMage if you are truly saved. He will break you down and remold you.
He will take our your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. (Ez 36)
Another place to understand this better is 1 John. He talks about 'walking in the light'. That denotes a lifestyle. YOu are being sanctified.
A good way to explain this is if you were to follow me around with a camera. You could take a picture of me sinning...probably speaking mean to the dog or getting angry at a stupid driver. Or worse that I won't mention here.
However, If you followed me around with a video camera for several months, you would see me sin but also tape me grieve over that sin and repent. It is 2 steps forward and one step back.
I can do good works and not be saved. That is for sure. But I cannot be saved and have no good works or no fruit.
Read James while you are at it.
There is a reason why Jesus used the phrase "Born Again". We are new creatures in Christ.
Matt
Here is a comment made by a pastor over on Wade Burleson's blog a few weeks ago as Wade was blogging about the situation at FBC Jax. It is a pastor who did post this with his name, but I am not giving his name here just his quote. He says some very interesting comments about what was said at Pastor's Conference concerning this blog:
"I would like to weigh in on this topic. I can understand the desire for transparency and the ability to approach leadership with concerns. If this is not in place in a congregation, the leadership is then faced with the tremendous temptation to wield power in an unbiblical fashion.
As one commenter said, leaders are to be servants to the congregation and not lords over them.
I can speak to this issue at FBC Jax with some firsthand knowledge. When this whole thing really began to blow up last year I attended the Pastors Conference. And throughout the conference, there were snide comments made here and there--not only by Mac Brunson, but by many other leaders.
I and some pastor's I attended the conference with noticed that there was apparently a "problem" with someone blogging about Mac Brunson and the church.
When leadership feels that it is necessary for a "frontal assault" on someone criticizing the church--that speaks to the heart of the leadership. So while I will agree that FBC Watchdog should not allow an innocent person to be wrongly accused and "punished" (as though church discipline is truly necessary in this case), I can also understand his desire for anonymity witnessing the anger (and yes I mean anger) that was expressed towards his blog during the Pastor's Conference.
Jesus Reigns, [name omitted]"
As a pastor, I support what Mac and FBC, Jax have done. No church should put up with a member who has a blog that asks members not to tithe and calls staff members all kinds of derogatory names. Mac's actions do not justify your disrupting the unity of the spirit in your church.
I'm sure FBC, Jax is functioning much more freely and smoothly now that you have been removed. I'm just worried about your new pastor and what will happen if he ever crosses you.
...."I can do good works and not be saved. That is for sure. But I cannot be saved and have no good works or no fruit.".......Matt it's unbelievable that people can seperate salvation from the Lordship of Jesus Christ!!!..The false teachers mentioned by Peter in 2Pet.2:1 claim teaching authority yet deny the LORD who bought them bringing swift destruction upon themselves[cf.Jude 4]...Jesus in teaching that a tree is known by its fruit states "But why do you call Me 'LORD,LORD,'and not do the things that I SAY?...Jesus further said in contrast to the rebellious Pharisees "My sheep hear My Voice,and "I" know them and they "FOLLOW ME"[John 10:27]...The Apostle Paul wrote "That if you confess with your mouth the LORD Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raise Him from the dead,you will be saved[Rom.10:9]...Paul futher wrote in Phil.2 "Therefore God also has HIGHLY EXALTED Him and given Him the Name which is above every Nave,that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,of those in Heaven,and those on earth,and of those under the earth,and that every "tongue should" confess that Jesus Christ is "LORD",to the Glory of God the Father[Phil.2:9-11]...2Cor.12:3 reveals these Words "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed,and "NO ONE" can say that Jesus Christ is "LORD" except by the Holy Spirit...The Apostle John wrote "You(the disciples)call Me Teacher and "LORD",and you say well,"FOR SO I AM"[John 13:13]...Peter in witnessing to the household of Cornelius stated "The Word which God sent to the children of Israel,preaching peace through Jesus Christ "He is "LORD" of ALL[Acts 10:36]...Jesus is called the "King of Kings and the LORD of LORDS"[Rev.19:16]...Also by the very fact that Jesus is "God" incarnate by default makes Him "LORD" of all!!!...Paul in his coversion on the Damascus road asked Jesus "What shall I do,"LORD"?[Acts 22:10]..."If any person be "IN" Christ,he is a NEW creature(creation)[2Cor.5:17]...A person is saved by Faith alone through Grace alone,but Jesus saves people to be their "LORD" and if He is not the "LORD" of your life,there's good chance you don't know Him!!!..You either bow and make Him "LORD" in this life or you will bow and proclaim that He's "LORD" after death on the way to hell!!!..Thanks again Matt for your words of wisdom!!!
anon 11:02 wrote "I'm sure FBC, Jax is functioning much more freely and smoothly now that you have been removed. I'm just worried about your new pastor and what will happen if he ever crosses you."
What makes you think the church is functioning any differently with or without a blogger? If a new blog goes up today, does that effect the functioning of FBC Jax? If gossip in a beauty shop is going on today, that does disrupt the functioning of the church?
Must a church use its powers and influence to silence free speech rights of members who have concerns and questions? And if so, to what lengths should they go? Should they involve the courts and then later say they decided not to use the courts of law? Should they issue trespass warnings to the wife of a blogger so as to disrupt that family as much as possible? Is that restorative or is that revenge?
Are you an American? Yet you approve of those with power silencing those who have an opinion the powerful don't like? Or did you immigrate from China or Cuba?
And anon, please answer this question? Why would the new pastor, or any pastor anywhere in the world, have to fear a blog about them and their church if they are humbly serving the Lord, pastoring their flock, and being open and honest about their actions? Like Mac asked "you worried about a discipline committee drummer?" I would ask pastors that have nothing to hide: "You worried about a blog, pastor? No? I didn't think so."
March 17, 2009 11:02 AM --
You don't sound like a pastor. You sound like judge & jury. You apparently have no idea what has transpired. #1 People most certainly did contact Mac Brunson! #2 Either he or his wife chose to ignore or delete e-mails! I can say "he or his wife" with assuredness because we were told from DAY ONE that his wife took care of his e-mail. #3 Mac Brunson has chosen or allowed others to try to eliminate this blog with "partial truths!" #4 Because of the partial truths -- translated: lies -- there have been some probable illegal methods used to gain the info on who the blog owner is. FYI: The deacons were most positively told that the info was obtained from Comcast. There is only one way to accomplish receipt of that information. #5 There was never ANY Biblical attempt made to accomplish the restoration of a brother!
You need to wake up and smell the coffee! Perhaps you would like to go and read what another pastor said, the one who attended the pastors' conference and commented right above your post, at 11:54 am.
It seems to me that you are either not a pastor or you are one of the many who have no idea of the loving attitude which would be shown by a pastor who loves God's people. Loving pastors do not attack their congregation -- they love them and care for them in more ways than just uttering words.
This whole situation could have been avoided had the pastor handled the questions and comments in a caring way. If it had been handled correctly there would NEVER have been the birth of the blog.
Anonymous 11:02 Thats right, ignore the questions and deal harshly with those who ask questions. Call them divisive and take the spotlight off the leader. I would not worry about how the WD's new pastor will deal and minister to him. I don't think that pastor's ministry is all about him. You seem to forget the pastor is supposed to be a SERVANT!! Some other pastors have written in and supported the Watchdog. Just because a man claims he is a pastor does not necessarily make him one. Look at the large number of pastors that quit the pastorate or should each and every year, thousands of them. Many are called but FEW are chosen!!!
The trespass papers were delivered underhandedly to the accused at his home. Calling and hanging up, just to make sure he was home. Sneeky.
Another thing, isn't the pastor and staff to exercise Matt 18 correctly? Those pastors who handed out the trespass warning should have at least entered into the house and made an attempt to reconcile this matter. Jesus never turned anyone away. He even called Judas friend. When we ignore the bibical principles laid down by the Lord we get off...way off. Its called doing things in the flesh, just like this old world.
There are always two sides of a story. You have not heard the end of this one yet. I would caution you and others to await the Watchdog's final statements as it may proove most enlightening.
I will say this... If I needed to have someone pray with me about any matter, it would not be leadership and trustees of FBCJ. They don't do anything spiritually, by the Bible.
Anon. Pastor 11:02
"No church should put up with a member who has a blog that asks members not to tithe and calls staff members all kinds of derogatory names".
What does "put up with" mean? You seem quite limited in your vocabulary. Also, anger seeps through your post. Guess you deal with members harshly and without the kind spirit of God. That is, if you truly are a pastor!
Well looky,looky,looky.....Pastor 11:02am has revealed the heart of most modern days Pastor's...They are the Lord and will pass judgment on any who would oppose them....Pastor 11:02am are you the fourth person of the Trinity....Let me remind you in case you have forgotten or never knew;;You are not the Lord of the sheep, "You" are the greater servant too the sheep;;"GOT IT"!!!
"When leadership feels that it is necessary for a "frontal assault" on someone criticizing the church--that speaks to the heart of the leadership. So while I will agree that FBC Watchdog should not allow an innocent person to be wrongly accused and "punished" (as though church discipline is truly necessary in this case), I can also understand his desire for anonymity witnessing the anger (and yes I mean anger) that was expressed towards his blog during the Pastor's Conference."
I am glad another pastor noticed this. Hopefully, he and many others will see that spending the hard earned money their members give to send them to this 'conference' is a waste. It could be much better used for the least of these in their congregation or community.
Mac is being fed in his anger by other SBC leaders and pastors. They are all coming under scrutiny and they do not like it one bit so they have to make it a sin to question and how one questions public behavior. And they are sticking together. FBC Jax has witness this with Brunson's tacky and lying comments about Dr. Klouda who has been treated like an old rag by these 'Christian' men.
The Georgia SBC even passed a resolution about blogging trying to use fearmongering as a way to keep folks from reading them! That is how much damage it is doing to the Charlatans and they know it. The gig is up. More and more people are catching on that this is more about their positions, wealth and fame than anything. This is their 'career'. They are professional speakers.
How can the folks in the pews develop spiritually beyond these charlatans? They can't UNLESS they go to the Source. Those who do, will leave eventually because they will know they are not seeing a praxis of orthordoxy.
Pastor 11:02 you said:::::"Mac's actions do not justify your disrupting the unity of the spirit in your church."....What spirit are you refering to???..Is it their own sinful spirits or the Holy Spirit???..Judging by Mac actions whether Dr.Dog was right or wrong(though he's right)Pope Mac should not have responded the way he did!!!Peter said;;You do know who Peter is don't you???.Peter wrote that "Jesus was reviled,yet He did not revile in return"[1Pet.2:23]...Therefore even if Dr.Dog was wrong(though he's not)Mac supposedly being the greater "SERVANT" should have meet with Dr.Dog and sought reconciliation!!!.Question ohhhh great seer Pastor 11:02am is extravagant living by the Pastor off the offering of the sheep Biblical or not???..I personally have a serious problem with greedy supposed men of God,am I wrong???..Thanks in advance for your response...
I am personally sickened and ashamed of the leadership at FBC for the extreme measures and actions they have chosen against you and your family. What is wrong with our churches today? Where is Godliness and humility and REAL leadership?
Pastor Burleson, I could not agree with you more.
Some feel that blogging is a "new tool of the enemy" when it comes to churches. I see where it could be abused, and could cause dissention. However, can't you rise above that? Aren't there email's and letters and even phone calls that truly are "evil" and "threatening" that come in weekly to the Pastors of churches? Isn't that the very reason Pastors now have security and bodyguards? Do you pursue and threaten, persecute and slander every person who opposes you? Violate their privacy,expose them? Worse yet, MAKE UP FALSE allegations against them and their family? Run them out of the church and humiliate them following years of service?
You should be GREATLY ashamed of yourselves First Baptist church leadership - especially Mac Brunson who gives out these orders to pursue this man and his family. To spread false, unsubstantiated rumors about him. Was it really causing problems in your church, were people turning against you, changing their membership, forming an army against you? No, some people were reading and commenting on a blog, of which there are millions. You had it monitored and allowed yourself to become angered by it. Our holy scriptures teach "be angry and sin not". This is certainly very difficult to do. I understand that emotions and pride and a "vigilante" mentality can easliy take over in numbers. As a result, I see many sins being commited against this man and his family.
Regardless of your opinion of whether he was right or wrong in what he did, we alone are responsible for our responses to it. I have seen many angry comments on his blog over the last year, for the most part, he responded in love. He loves his church, the people there, he was concerned about the new leadership and direction it is taking. Many others feel the same and do not blog, but instead talk around town. Yet, many others are joyous and grateful for the new leadership and adore Pastor Brunson. And each is entitled to their own opinions, this is normal within any church. Gossip is not good nor helpful, but we cannot stop or control it. Not when it is verbal or written.
Sadly, you are setting the tone for how many more people possibly believe what he has been warning against all along. I remember Dr. Lyndsay talking about being attacked in the media and receiving angry letters, he knew it was just part of the role. He never got angry (publicly) or embarrassed his church by his reponses, that I recall. He did not apologize for his stance, or cower down to insults, but he also certainly did not persecute and "hunt down" his opponent. I am sad to say that these gross errors in judgement have further shown pride, arrogance and anger playing out to the fullest definitions.
It is certainly alright to disagree with the blog and be offended that it is listing a negative opinion of you. This is understandable. Yet, it is also a choice a public figure makes: to be scrutinized, analyzed, challenged, loved, hated, personified, valued, undervalued, whatever opinions are felt. The problem comes in when most people feel they cannot voice these concerns or opinions without fear of being PUBLICLY DISCIPLINED. You have certainly made your point, if you disagree with Pastor Brunson, you better not let anyone know, we now have a disciplinary committee formed to deal swiftly with you. How welcoming is that? I am so sad about this. I am appalled and ashamed. We are supposed to love even our enemies and those who persecute us. This is not love, not even "tough love". This is "get rid of them, and make sure you ruin their reputation so that I look better and they have no credibility". What scriptures back up these decisions and actions you have made? I do not see Christ in this. Word will spread and sadly, your actions seem much more polluted than the accused.
You should really rethink your position here. Strip down your pride and go bare before the Lord and ask for His guidance. We have ALL allowed our selfishness and pride to get in the way at times, thinking we are hearing God when instead we are confused by the enemy, using our hurt against us. There are much more effective and Godly ways to handle this situation - or the simplest would have been to ignore it.
Word is spreading quickly, Pastor Brunson. Readers from all over the world read the blogs. Perhaps you forget that your many members all know people whom they converse with, along with Watchdog's friends and family...I received an email and also a phone call today asking if I was aware of all that is going on at your church. Someone even knew of the JSO involvement. Taking this a little to far don't you think? Do you really want to leave things as they are? It is not prettyto look upon, and I hope you are wise enough to see the forest for the trees. A lot of good people are following you in this and could really get hurt in this situation because you want to "shut 'em down". I do not blame those that are following your orders, they are afraid as well - though I wonder how many in their hearts really want to stand up and say "wait a minute here..." I hope someone finds the courage.
Bless you and your family Watchdog. I will pray for you all as you endure this trial. I cannot imagine how hurt your family must be. After all, whether your wife or children knew of your blog or agreed with your stance - they are taught (both by your Pastor and also Biblically) to be submissive to you as their leader. So, in essence, they are innocent and yet are being punished, hurt and humiliated by FBC leaders, namely their former Pastor. I pray they come through this without their hearts becoming hardened. This after all is the act of men, not of God. Your families' years of service do not go unnoticed, and certainly are seen by God, it has not been in vain, though it may now feel that way.
The truth will be known. The terrible things that have been made up about you will have light shed on them. I know for a fact that before they knew of your identity, they had labeled you to some of the deacons as a "disgruntled homosexual" that is certainly a lie and was not Godly to spread false rumors. As we see now, those rumors are continuing (and intensifying) in order to discredit you and protect themselves. What shameful behavior. I hope the media does not catch wind of this because it could become a firestorm.
I know I am opening the door for a lot of criticism for being so blunt here. But I am much more concerned with this families defense and well being, than hiding in silence for fear of being chastised. We should be concerned with pleasing God, not man. Including our Pastors. They are to be loved and respected, and we should be able to look up to them. But they are to be held to a higher standard. When they are doing things contrary to scriptures (I am speaking of their current actions, not those listed on the blog), our eyes should come WIDE OPEN and we should be allowed to hold them accountable (scripturally), we should not have to hide behind anonimity for fear of the consequences and jeapordy to our families.
This is a huge problem in the SBC and has been for some years now. True Godliness allows and requests accountability and more than that, transparency. For any of you that have participated in the slander of this man and his family, if you feel the least bit of stirring in your soul about it, repent and turn away.
Maybe, just maybe, people are beginning to open their eyes and that is when "good" changes can come and we can all benefit from that.
I apologize for the lengthy comment.
Tiffany: Great comment. And absolutely true!!! Thank you.
I find it interesting that all of you expect Mac to humble himself--according to your standards. You sound like my kids when you say that WD was justified in doing what he did because Mac did something that he didn't like.
Grow up and be the believers the Bible commands you to be and quit evaluating someone else's level of humility and then using someone else's shortcomings to justify your's.
Anon 8:21am are you 2 yeras old or what?Your Pastor is not above being questioned.Who do you tjink he is;"GOD"! Tiffany thank you for your blog done like a true Christian.
Anon. @ 8:21: I believe that was my point. Neither person is "justified". Both are doing what they feel they need to do, whether you see it as right or wrong.
But certainly Dr. Brunson's response is not "justified" because he is against the watchdog's opinion and the sharing of it. Responding by making false accusations, persecuting the man and his family, trespass warnings, public reading of edicts from the pulpit (sure that was effective for visitors and the lost, use of power and authority, talking about him in private meetings amongst the deacons and from the pulpit, and finally forcing him to leave his church...is not the proper, nor Godly response. You spoke of "growing up and being the believers we are commanded to be". Excellent point, we are commanded to respond God's way, in love, no matter what persecutions may come or if we disagree with someone. I Have yet to see this here.
Oh yeh anon 8:21am you said"Grow up and be the believers the Bible commands".Could you or your kids give us some Biblical ref.so that we'll know how to act like believers.
The following was taken from a blog by a respected leader at FBC.
Never a truer prayer:
"We are weak emotionally. There are those among us who are carrying emotional burdens, concerns and cares that only You know about. And, all of us are so quick to respond to trials in our lives with emotions that are fleshly and not of faith. God, keep us in perfect peace as we fix our minds on you today. Bring faith to work in us as we face hard situations. Cause us to remember that we are to cast all our cares on You, because You care for us.
And Father, we are weak spiritually. None of us have the strength to live the life that brings You most glory. We are prone to wander. We are prone to love other things more than You. We are prone to self-worship, and self-interest. O, how weak we are spiritually. Today, give us a knowledge of You. Give us a sensing of Your glory, and beauty, and power that captivates our hearts, that transforms our minds, that produces a hatred for sin and a loathing for self-worship. Be wonderful in our lives today. Remove the scales from our eyes, the slowness from our ears, and the calluses from our hearts, so that we can see and hear and delight, not in our selves, but in You today.
We pray these things, not for our joy merely, but for Your glory mostly. May people see You in us today and be drawn to You, that the riches of Your glory are clearly seen and You are pleased."
Well said, John Blount. This is the prayer of a righteous man and shows a heart of humility before God - no pontificating. We all need to read this and pray it.
This is just an exerpt, you can read the full blog here http://fbcjaxblog.com/johnblount/
Anon 8:21:You are correct in the question "Why should Mac humble himself"? Only a true servant of God that is called to be a pastror to people, and is called to PREACH the WORD, should humble himself. Maybe this is why Mac doesn't humble himself. Jesus went to the Cross for all of us, but Mac shouldn't have to humble himself for anyone!!!!
Tiffaney you keep wanting to bash Dr Brunson but what about the dog not following Matthew 18 oh he sent an anon email but he did not go to Dr Brunson. He then got on the net and told the whole world about his complaints against FBC Jax. Those were his oppionions he has not shown where doctrinally they are out of line he has just said he doesnt like this or that. He has gotten to the point where now whatever Dr Brunson does he is going to complain about it and he is stalking using the net against Dr Brunson by finding where he goes and what he says. If FBC Jax used false methods they were wrong but the only one saying they did is Dog. He has credibility issues in that he has been caught back tracking on several statements like he was adomant the couple being disicplined and given trespass warnings were not him but lo and behold thanks to Wade he has to finally admit doing an awshucks it is me. He has promised to come clean to say nope cannot do it now by lawyers gagging me. I am a pastor and know several pastors who have been at their churches as long or longer than Wade I havent yet but none of them will respond to an anon email. Once you let people get a response to an anon email thats all you do. Satan will use it to keep you busy same thing as allegegations you cannot respond to them all. I love my people or should say the LORD'S people I have the priviledge to pastor my door is always open and I have taken criticism but I wont respond to a anon email. I get in the pulpit two to 3 times a week and am taped I have to stand behind every word I say and will if proven wrong appologize I think a complainer should do the same. Plus a anon email you do not know how it is going to be used.
March 18, 2009 11:55 AM - you question why didn't the WD go to the pastor? Who really cares about what the WD did or didn't do? He isn't a mega pastor? Plus, kind of hard to blog anonymously if you go to the pastor isn't it? And why should he go to the pastor anyway? He never accused the pastor of "a sin against him." He merely raised some questions and asked for transparency and openness from the leadership on a few issues.
Are you not concerned with the way the church is handling this? Or are you still focusing on whether some guy blogging as the WD did everything "okay" with you?
As for credibility of the WD, call the JSO and State Attorney's offices yourself and ask them if the church involved those agencies in hunting down the WD.
Or stay tuned...it will all be made very public very soon.
Anon 11:55: People HAVE approached Brunson in person, signed E mails, telephone, etc. HE DOESN"T respond to questions or criticism...period. He thinks his "position" precludes, insulates and ELEVATES him from negativity. He is a public figure by virtue of being a preacher (?), so his words are judged. Like the words of our past preachers, who actually were preachers. And rightly so. Plus he accepts public funds for this position. So don't tell the people they have no right to closely examine the speaker. He has been given every opportunity to handle this situation differently, but has chosen to take the stiff-necked, quarrelsome, contentious road. As to credibilty... Brunson goes out of town and talks down the church, and how bad he has it here, and then comes back and tells the same church how much he "loves" them. Is that not a credibility problem?
Anon Pastor 11::55am...No where did Dr.Dog deny that he was the accused person he just never said he who he was;re-read his blogs...As far as Brunson is concern he is not without fault in this whole issue...Brunson has some serious personal issues only he can deal with...One thing I continue to harp on and is my problem is how any man of God(me included)can consiously live and extravagant life off of the offerings of the congregation?..According too Scripture this is always a sign of a deceptive spiritual leader!!!Multi-million dollar homes when some in the sanctuary probably live in near poverty..Luxury auto's which are beyond the means of the average parishoner;Homer never did "THAT"!!Taking 100,000;I mean 100,000;thats 100,000 dollars of valuable children space to refurbish and office for himself and unbelieveablely some dogs!!!..Threating people with the judgment of God if they don't tithed..Slandering Sheri Klouda whom herself dropped a blog to tell the true story about what happen to her...And this debacle concern illegally obtaining info on Dr.Dog because "he did'nt like" what he was writing!!!Even bloggers from FBC Dallas have chimed in concerning Brunson!!...No Tiffany is absolutely correct in her summation of this whole situation...There's a problem alright at FBC Jax and it is not Dr.Dog ""It's Mac Brunson""!!!
Hey, It is Written,
I imagine your Jacksonville congregation would be upset with you if they new how much hate you have spewed in this blog. Or would they support you on this endeavor?
Hate and envy against Brunson. What happened? Did you interview for a position at FBC and got turned down?
One other point I forgot to mention earlier. Most of you may not know that not only did FBC and Mac Brunson subpeona the records of watchdog's site, but specifically listed mine as well. Our two blog's really do not have any relevance to each other. I have not been involved in the watchdog's blog about FBC, my issue is in alerting people to the repeated crimes of a sexual offender named Pastor Darrell Gilyard within his churches.
Leads me to wonder what possible crime I committed to get an order to breach my privacy and subpeona my blog record. Am I next on their radar? The funny part is that I am listed very publicly, never have I hidden my identity. My face has been on the news and I blog using my own name. I even list my married and maiden name. Dr. Brunson knows my parents (members of his church) they love and support their Pastor wholeheartedly. Dr. Brunson knows of my history with Gilyard and the reasons I felt the need to be public. There is no reason to search out information that is right in front of us all....hmmmm.
What is next? And here we are worried about the government taking away our rights to free speech and squashing our right to make our own choices...what is going on here? I guess we have a much larger problem on our hands than we first realized.
Dr. Brunson, I would be happy to meet with you to answer any questions you may have, all you need to do is ask. I am really transparent, and I actually welcome criticism or challenge as it keeps me in check and gives me accountability. Maybe if you had simply answered his questions and addressed his (and many others') concerns, it would not be such an out of control problem.
No need to create rumors against me as you all have with "Watchdog", I am no threat to you.
Dr. Brunson, this is so sad that we are here. I truly hope that you decide to reconcile all of this in the appropriate way. And then apologize to your congregation for misleading them and destroying this man's family. It would be the Godly thing to do, so much could be learned from so many by simple transparency. You have all of these Pastor's looking to you for guidance (thank's to our former Pastor's setting up the annual Pastor conference. We have already heard testimony from an attendee. that was ..appalled by the continual talk of "this blogger" and the undercurrent of anger he felt during this years conference. Imagine what next year's talk will be - let's hope it will be the way you turned this sinking (or stinking) ship around and did the right thing.
I do respect your authority as a Pastor and do not wish to seem disrespectful here. I truly wish to see this turned around properly.
Tiffany - perhaps the investigator who subpoened your records from Google and from Comcast as he did mine was interested in some of the anonymous comments on your blog. Who knows. You make a good point as to why they would subpoena informatoin from Google concerning your blog since you use your own identity.
There really are two people who might know the answer:
John Blount, Church Administator who called the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office on the 9/29, the day after Chest of Joash to report possible criminal Internet activity
and
Detective Robert Hinson of the JSO who took Blount's report, and was the officer who sent subpoena's to the state attorney office to get Google and Comcast to release the identity of the Watchdog.
And of course Detective Robert Hinson is also a member of FBC Jax.
Gee, how interesting.
Anon 4:39pm...I teach my fellow believers to be Berean Christians and to verify and test what all men say against the Scriptures...Secondly I don't lord my position over God's sheep as it appears that Brunson does...Thirdly I don't live a lavish lifestyle off the backs of those who give their hard earned money for Kingdom work;We actually save and help are members if the need arises...4thly I've had to deal with members who disagreed with me and I can ASSURE YOU that I never dealt with a dissenter as you've done with Dr.Dog,as a matter of fact those whom had issues with me are still some of my best friends...I sat under the teachings of Dr.Lindsay and I know the geniune kind of man that he was...I knew Mrs Lindsay and how beautiful and kind she was...Believe Brunson is no Homer!!!If Dr.Lindsay saw what was happening under Brunson watch if it were possible he would turn-over in his grave!!!Now let me ask you a question;;Is it right for a Pastor to live high on the hog off of the offerings of the Saints?
Dr.Dog and Tiffany thanks for the heads up;;If they subpeona both your blog sites then they probably viewed many of the bloggers?...These people are frightening::"IS THIS AMERICA"!!!Dr.Dog did'nt I predict that it would get::: "WORSE AND WORSE" yes "WORSE AND WORSE"!!!
"John Blount, Church Administator who called the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office on the 9/29, the day after Chest of Joash to report possible criminal Internet activity"
All, because WD questioned tithing and advocated not contributing funds that support Fbc Jax Leadership.
Now that is criminal.
Unless, Fbc Jax is a business. And WD is trying to stop their business.
Wow!
The sad thing is, all the people who might not have contributed as much to the Chest of Joash as before, did so mostly due to economic situations. I would suspect that only 1% of the difference would be from WD's advocacy.
Why did they not go after George Bush for contributing to the economic mess in the first place, that reduced their Chest of Joash fund gathering?
What a sad story.
Now, Tiffany Croft's story here. I can not believe what I am hearing. I have already posted a comment on Pastor Wade's blog here.
Watchdog:
I can see there are going to be some serious problems coming up -- and well there should be!!!
What in the world is going on? Why drag Tiffany into this? It's because there is no stopping people when they decide to get revenge! So I guess Tiffany is guilty "by association" because her web site is listed on your home page??? This is simply ludicrous!!! Worse, it's very likely illegal to get an investigation going based on, at best, a partial truth and at worst, an outright lie!
I hope there's going to come a day when those personally responsible for making a blog a criminal matter are brought into courtroom for the whole world to see!!! I have the feeling that there will be no acceptable answers given in defense of their actions! Not in a courtroom and not in God's sight either!
Tiffany: Dr. Brunson would be more than happy to meet with you to "smoothe your feathers" but he won't be forthcoming with the whole truth!
Ok, Watchdog, now this is really disturbing ... when you said to Tiffany, "perhaps the investigator who subpoened your records from Google and from Comcast as he did mine was interested in some of the anonymous comments on your blog" -- are we to take that to mean that the records obtained via these subpoenas include the IP addresses or other identifying information of those who have posted comments on your blog? Wouldn't that be an invasion of the privacy of all the anonymous posters?
WD, If you have not read about the Ligoneir ministries saga of trying to sue an anonymous blogger, you need to do it. They backed off as it was reported in the Orlando Sentinel and USA Today.
They really came off like the Italian mafia in all this. Can you imagine what it is going to look like that a public employee used his position to come after you?
It really hurt their donations and they started calling their donors 2-3x a week after this trying to stay alive. They finally fired the president (RC Sproul's son in law, Tim Dick) who filed the suit.
Even some Christian watchman ministries were telling folks not to donate without knowing all facts. Turned out the Sprouls were living pretty high on the hog, too.
http://www.mediatransparency.org/recipientprofile.php?recipientID=3078
Hey, if giving was down for Chest of Joash it was due to all of us that didn't get raises last year. And remember, Mac told us to "praise Jesus we didn't get that raise." So, I guess we have Jesus to thank and praise for the lower Joash offering. (if we believe Mac Brunson.)
I am just blown away that a pastor of a Church, God's House, would pervert the Church to go after a member, a private citizen of the the United States. The fact that they seemingly duped a member of the police force into this just tells you the kind of people that are in charge.
Freedom of speech laws date back to the 7th century in the Mid East, and for almost a 1000 years ago, it was put into the Magna Carta in 1215.
As much as I hate the ACLU, this would be right up their alley. Their sliminess could work to defeat the sliminess that has become First Brunson Corporation of Jacksonville.
Sir, I will pray for you and your family. May sanity return to the nuts running the corporate offices on W. Ashley.
Wow, just wow.
Oh and just for the record Mr. Blount, I am not a member of your corporation, I belong to a loving church. I am no one special, just a guy from Jacksonville, completely amazed at the crap that your business is pulling to shut down a private citizen since you don't like what they and others have to say about your self imposed King. So there is no need to pull the IP address from my post.
Junkster - you'll have to draw your own conclusions. I just know that subpoenas were issued to Google to obtain private information related to Sean Lyons, FBC Jax Watchdog, and Tiffany Croft.
If you're interested in knowing more, you would need to contact the State's Attorney who signed the subpoena, or the JSO detective investigating the case.
Let's see. WD lied to us about being the one who was served the papers. Think there might be a chance he is lying about how and why the leadership at FBC, Jax were able to find out his identity.
These guys are way too powerful and polished to make a huge legal error.
Just wondering if WD will ever learn to tell the truth about himself.
WD lied to us about being the one who was served the papers.
Show us one example where WD claimed he was not the one served papers. You assumed he was not because he wrote about the incident in the third person but you know what they say about assuming... don't you?
Anon: 8:53: WD did NOT lie about himself!!!! He chose not to publish his identity, just as I see, YOU have not. The reason being (1) he has a family, (2) we see what the "powerful" and the "polished" have done to a fellow christian AND his family. Want to trade places with him? Power and polish has taken over humility and Godliness in my opinion (which I assume I am still, for the time being, entitled to).
Pastor Wade's blog: Your Honor, Please Help Us Understand
Sometimes I shudder when I think about the hard ball tactics used by some Southern Baptists to silence dissent. For the majority of my twenty five years of ministry, there has been a belief in me that most Southern Baptist leaders understand humility, servant leadership, and the grace that is needed to endure dissent. However, after reading the comments on FBC Jacksonville Watchdog's Blog, and specifically those comments that reveal how subpoenas were issued to discover the identity of the Watchdog blog - as well as reading all the relevant public documents myself - there have arisen in my mind a few questions. These questions relate to whether or not FBC church members involved in law enforcement and the courts of Jacksonville were used in order to obtain the private information of a church member, including the Watchdog's identity. Further, there are legitimate questions that should be asked to discern whether or not FBC church leadership used the information they possibly gleaned through law enforcement to possibly intimidate, threaten, or coerce a church member into silence. I do not have the answer to the following questions, I am simply asking. These questions were to be asked personally and privately of FBC leadership, but phone calls have been unreturned for three weeks now, so it is entirely appropriate to ask them publicly.
Cue the weepy violin music.
Ya know, I'm thinking that if the blogger had done what (s)he should have done in the FIRST place which is go to the people he had a problem with personally instead of cowering behind the anonymity the internet provides, (s)he wouldn't have had this problem.
Bwess the wittle baby heart. Having such a hawd time. Bwess it.
Anon 10:15 & Anon 10:08,
Watchdog never came out and said "I was not the person served the trespass warning". He did however create a false persona (Anon 11:51 from Dec 4 2008) in the comment section of the Dec 1 2008 post "Did you make the list". He posted back and forth between The Watchdog and Anon 11:15.
The Watchdog did this to remain anonymous. I am sure he never suspected that law enforcement had been used to obtain his identity. It was however a deception.
Most who agree with the Watchdog will look past the deception. Some, like yourselves, will even say there was no deception. However those who disagree with him will latch on to the deception as proof that he is a liar and cannot be trusted.
FYI, Joe Blackmon claims to be a former "part-time pastor."
Scary!
Thanks BBC for the heads up on OHHHH "JOE"...The "former" "part time" pretty much sums up oh "JOE"...
It is written,
I think his profile photo (which an observant reader described as a cartoon "man in tights and a cape with a sock in his shorts") and the name of his blog -- "Hear God Speak - Bible Commentary" -- finish summing him up. I think these guys put themselves on such high pedestals they truly think they're speaking for God. {shudder}
anon 11:22 - now those that will "latch on" to the watchdog's concealing his identity might actually start "latching on" to what Mac is doing to them and the church. (And "latch on" to Maurilio Amorim's influence and what that costs us.)
So many "sharp" people now know what the WD is "really" like. After two years they "caught" him being less than forthright. But after 3 years of Mac they have seen NOTHING. Very astute observers. Sheesh!
Joe Blackmon -
"Ya know, I'm thinking that if the blogger had done what (s)he should have done in the FIRST place which is go to the people he had a problem with personally instead of cowering behind the anonymity the internet provides, (s)he wouldn't have had this problem."
You are another "johnny come lately" who has THE answer. Grow up, Joe Blackmon! Read a few posts above your own and you will see what nonsense you have posted for all to see...
Just a question WD --
Do you know why David Champagne is leaving? And his parents have already joined another church -- and that adds another question, why did the church list their new church name(another denomination) when they never list the transfer of membership's new church?
David has been a wonderful asset to our church, doing many many jobs and his leaving is going to leave a GIANT vacancy.
Is it just more of the same?
A "disclaimer" of sorts:
It is only out of respect for my parents and others I love there that I feel the need to disclaim this:
These comments and opinions are solely mine and do not reflect those of my parents. They adore Dr. Brunson and respect him. They are not in agreement with this blog or any involvement from me, so please do not approach or harass them because of this.
As for my role: There isn't one. I am upset that no one seemed to care about this man and his family. I have shared my feelings.
I am now "embarrassing" my family and many people I love there at FBC by posting. For that embarrassment, I am truly sorry. I hope that it is not irreparable. I hope that you can see my heart and know that I love people and I don't want to see anyone hurt. Many of you know me well enough.
However, I also know that we are called to love. We are called to mediate and restore, we are called to live as Jesus would. Jesus called people out (in love) and he then turned around and ministered to them. He healed their hurts and forgave their insults; he turned the other cheek and loved on the wounded. He was available. He was both a shepherd and the Lion of Judah - he loved unconditionally, but he also shined light on the sin. He did this all in love, with great mercy.
Have any of you seen the Dateline episodes titled "What would you do?". They secretly video acted out events of random passerby reactions to various shameful acts. Later they let the person know it was an act and they were being taped to see their reaction. It’s very interesting to see things like a baby being left alone in a hot car and many people walking by, obviously disturbed, yet taking no action. Or kids beating up a homeless man and passerby turn their heads (or even stare) but offer no intervention. Or, other more simple things such as a person that has ketchup on their face, or a button undone and no one let's them know. There are many who react and help. Some go to great lengths to step up and help, some call for help, some make comments as they pass by - but they DO SOMETHING. Our society has become a "don't get involved" society, mostly for fear of getting hurt or killed, or for embarrassment, or just for fear of being harshly judged. Is this right? Should we help? That is open to opinion and debate. One thing for sure, God created us all differently. We all serve different purposes in life, especially in kingdom work. Wouldn't churches be ineffective if we all had the same outlook and personality, the same ministry? There are different needs, therefore different solutions.
We are created to serve different purposes within the body of Christ. He planned it that way. I feel a deep need to stand up for people being run over by powerful people that are trying to silence them. Does this mean that the actions of the "accused" are all good, right and just? Am I always right in speaking out? Absolutely not. We are all fallible humans.
You don’t have to condone the behavior of someone to step up to help them. The homeless person may repel you and yet you wouldn’t stand by and watch kids throw things at him. You wouldn’t stand by and do nothing while a family member did something you knew was wrong, though you love him/her you would speak up. And then possibly defend them if there were a reason to, out of love, not condoning, but apologizing and helping.
We should handle things the right way as Christians, on BOTH sides of the fence. I stood by and said NOTHING for a while in this matter, I knew of the things going on long before many of you and knew the validity of some things being said by Watchdog. I said nothing because it was not my place, it is not my church, it was not my battle, no need for idle chatter. I have a family at FBC along with multitudes of friends and leaders that I love and respect. I did not want to do anything that would harm or embarrass them.
This man and his family are being lied about (directly or indirectly) and it affects them greatly. Stop and think of the impact this will have on their children. How will they view church leadership after all of this is over? Will they be able to respect and trust again? Will the wounds and pain of lost friendships and an entire church family turning their backs on them be forever life changing? Do you care? The pain of knowing that their father was standing up for something he believed in (right or wrong) and they are watching him be slandered and lied about. Knowing their mother was sitting outside the church while the daughter was singing in church because of a trespass warning served by the church against her parents. They tried to keep their kids in the church hoping things would be fixed and repaired. This did not happen. They did not run, they left because they couldn’t stay.
They have documented proof of their willingness to meet with the discipline committee (with 3 simple, reasonable requests) and were denied. They know this fact, many of you forget this or simply didn’t know.
I am certain that all of this could have been settled had that meeting occurred. Why am I certain? Because I know the 6 men that make up the discipline committee, I respect, love and admire them. That with the fact that watchdog did not set out to harm anyone, he wanted some tough questions answered and had concerns about the future of his church and the people in it. Arguably, many opinions as to whether or not this was the best way to handle it. He would have had a reasonable conversation with the committee and they would have all found a solution, he would have chosen the route that best covered his family. They would have all been able to work something out. Instead, that is when things heated up. I am sure looking back, everyone involved would have done things differently.
Why can we not stop right here and turn this thing around? That is what (as Christians) we should do. I suggest a meeting next week between the injured parties, Watchdog and his wife and Dr. Brunson. Just them, along with one accountability person for each side. Settle this whole thing once and for all. Admit there are mistakes on both sides and shake hands and move on? Is that possible? Would it be the right thing? We will see.
I feel that has become a brand within the churches. Cause trouble (by speaking up or asking questions) and you are humiliated and discredited right out of the church. Few Pastors seem to step up and do the really tough, respectful and Godly requirements.
A good, old fashioned, face to face. "I love you in Christ brother, but I really have a problem with what you are doing. Can we find a solution?" Do you think that would have turned this all around? I do. I know it would have, because I have talked to the watchdog. Please do not post any comments saying that a meeting was offered by the church or never requested by WD, because the WD has documentation of all that has transpired all the way back.
Please pray for WD's family (you are called to) and pray for Dr. Brunson as he decides how to handle it all. Please step back and show love, compassion and mercy. This may get really ugly if it continues on its' current path. I truly hope that does not happen.
David Champagne is leaving to go to FSU to get his master's degree.
Well the olive branch has been extended!!!..Thanks Tiffany you are one courageous woman and to be admired...You are a bigger woman than I am a man!!!..You have taught many of us a lesson in humility,compassion and a desire for unity and transparency!!!.Now let's see what happens!!!
Does this make anyone else want to hurl?
Mar 17
On the Shoulders: Dr. Paige Patterson
Filed Under (Theology Driven Ministry) by Jim Smyrl on 17-03-2009
History will more than likely record that no man asserted greater influence in the SBC during our generation than Dr. Patterson. I do not need to recap the valiant battle for the Bible in which he led the charge and won the victory. The purpose of this series is to personally testify to our heroes’ influence from an up-close perspective rather than from a historian’s vantage point.
I met Dr. Patterson when I was 23 years old and in search of a seminary. Several people advised me not to go to SEBTS for it was still in the throes of liberal influences. With an open mind, I went to the campus that will forever hold a special place in my heart. Sandra and I joined in with the regularly scheduled tour of the campus, met professors, listened to well rehearsed presentations, but none of it answered my question. My heart remained in a state of uncertainty as to where God wanted me to prepare for a lifetime of ministry.
Before departing, we were offered a moment with the Bishop. Entering into his office was like stepping into a war room in which planning for a conservative resurgence as well as an African Safari went hand in glove. His growling voice somehow softened when he smiled with his eyes and offered us a seat under the Great Kudu. After the formal pleasantries my searching heart found resolution. I asked, “Dr. Patterson, why should I come to Southeastern?” Without hesitation but with Pattersonian hyperbole he responded, “God is going to do here far beyond what you will see anywhere else.” With that, I was hooked and ready to move.
Over the 3 years of study Dr. Patterson exemplified in the pulpit as well as the study all that I was to be as a minister of the gospel. His passionate proclamation of a well exegeted text served as a model for my future pulpit ministry. His open door policy, even in the stressful days of liberal attacks, continues to remind me that nothing on my desk can ever usurp the need of a person at my door. Those 36 months in the classroom were eclipsed by momentary glances at the man who demonstrated in public and private what it meant to live godly in Christ Jesus.
One would think that after graduation, the Giant would have no time for those he called “sons” while on campus. After all, a new generation of young men arrived, primed for Pattersonian influence. But, his time proved to truly rest in the hands of a God Who alone could make hours as profitable as years. My first church was all that I was warned about while in the halls of the mighty seminary. Dr. Patterson remained the one constant adviser throughout the 4-year struggle. One afternoon I called as deacons gathered outside my office for a “confrontation with the pastor,” but I was informed he was in a trustee meeting and could not talk, but a message would be sent to him to call me later. Minutes later my phone rang and the voice of the Bishop offered certain advice in an uncertain time. Later, I would discover that he had stopped the trustee meeting stating, “One of my sons is in trouble.”
Through the years Dr. Patterson has been a voice of reason and assuring direction through some of the major decisions of my life. He continues to exemplify that those whom God places in one’s care are forever children called to walk in truth. So I rejoice to stand on the shoulders of a warrior whose press statements are most often contrary to the condition of his heart; of a leader whose reputation is often trampled while he is pouring his life into young men; whose intentions are often questioned while he is on his face before the One who holds him in His righteous right hand. It is on the shoulder of Paige Patterson that I and countless other sons stand in order to see the next generation of children in need of a servant leader.
"These guys are way too powerful and polished to make a huge legal error."
Some said the same thing about RC Sproul, Sr. The 'great' theologian who allowed Ligoneir to sue an anonymous blogger. It just about bankrupted them because donors found out. They even lied to donors who called asking about the law suit saying there wasn't one. But the county court verified there was one and gave the number!
Think about it: Offerings used to pay high powered lawyers who were quoted in USA
Today and the Orlando Sentinel about the blogger. They did not realize what that meant for them. Yeah right. Real polished.
No, they just did not think that one through. You usually don't when you are surrounded by yes men who think the same.
WatchDog, did you have a bad relationship with your Mother? Or are you swallowing your Redman? This is my first visit to this blog and I almost fell out of my trailer when I read all this mess.
Son, you ought to be ashamed! Are you proud of yourself? I would not want to be your next door neighbor, you would always be calling the law about that sofa on my back porch.
BBC Patterson's door was open to everybody but the many women who came to reveal the terror that was Darrel Gilyard!..They only found the door shut with a sign that said "Out to Lunch"!!!
NBBCOF,
Heading for the porcelain bank to make a deposit as we speak.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Yeah, if you're one of the Bishop's special "sons" and you're in trouble, he'll be right there for you. Yesiree! (Smyrl's ridiculous story aside.) If you're a Calvinist or anyone's daughter, well... too bad. "The Giant" will definitely be "Out to Lunch."
Hey "way i see it" - you think the WD is quick to call the law, check out the punk, bully John Blount III at FBC Jax. He had a detective file trespass warnings during the SS hour against a lady in the church for NO reason. He also has issued numerous complaints against "suspicious" persons. Meaning homeless people that hang around downtown since the homeless shelter is right across the street. But if those homeless get too close to the church doors, good old "reverend" John Blount, III calls the law. And if you call the church to ask any questions, expect John Blount to call the cops on you and Detective Hinson to contact you for "threatening and harassing phone calls" and have you trespassed off the premises.
Punks, cowards, bullies. If you don't believe me, request the public records from JSO and ask them for a print-out of every complaint filed from 124 Ashley Street W. Then you will see who the cowards are and who is quick to call the law.
Now, back to the issue of the tactics used to attempt to silence free speech.
Hey Jim Smyrl - I am no theologian and I don't have a worthless M.Div or PhD in theology, but I am pretty sure Paige Patterson is not a Bishop with a capital B. Your "worship" of a man is disgusting and illustrates the problem in the good ole boy SBC where people like you want fame and power and respect. Not a reason to become a pastor Jim. You make me sick!
Thank you anon 9:24!
wow, this is some sick stuff.
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