Readers: at the link below you will see three subpoenas issued to Google last October by Detective Robert A. Hinson of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office (JSO), himself a long-time member of FBC Jacksonville, that were part of his investigation into the complaint filed by the First Baptist Church Jacksonville Church Administrator John Blount on September 29, 2008 about an "internet incident" that had "possible criminal overtones".You will see that there are THREE subpoenas....one for this blog, and one for Tiffany Croft's blog (http://tiffanycroft.blogspot.com/), and one for the Bellevue Baptist Blog (http://newbbcopenforum.blogspot.com/).
Detective Hinson very soon after opening his investigation on September 29th issues a subpoena to identify the owner of the http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/ site. Then, a few weeks later, as a part of his investigation, he also decides that he needs information on the other two blogs.
Yes, for some reason as a part of the investigation into the "internet incident" reported by John Blount, Detective Hinson needed to find the IP addresses and names, and addresses, and social security numbers, log in dates and times, user IDs, registration/login information, etc. for not only the blog about FBC Jax, but also two other blogs that have been critical of pastors and churches in the Southern Baptist Convention.
The obvious questions that would be asked by someone looking at this: Why did Detective Hinson need this information? What was the alleged crime he was investigating? What "internet incident" reported by John Blount required personal, federally protected private information of bloggers in order for him to determine if there was a crime or not? What did he find in the information from http://www.fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/ subpoena that resulted in him issuing subpoenas to two other blogs critical of high-profile baptist preachers like Steve Gaines, Darrel Gilyard, and Paige Patterson? Tiffany Croft is quite disturbed, and understandably so, that her privacy may have been violated. She has ALWAYS blogged with her name and has nothing to hide. She believes this subpoena for her records, in a case that apparently has NOTHING to do with her blog, will only serve to scare people away from her site which was set up as a place where victims of Gilyard could communicate with others anonymously.
We might expect some of the answers to these questions to be found in the police reports filed by Detective Hinson for this particular JSO case under which the subpoenas were obtained. Unfortunately we don't know because in both incident reports filed by Detective Hinson associated with these subpoenas there is zero information at all. In his report he puts no detail at all regarding what the initial "internet incident" was. He gives no detail of any interviews he made. He gives no information as to what led to issuance of the subpoenas. Or what he found or didn't find that led to his conclusion that no crimes had been committed. See both incident reports for yourself:
September 29, 2008 Incident Report (Opens Case)
November 13, 2008 Indicent Report (Closes Case)
There was also a subpoena issued to Comcast to identify the name and address of the http://www.fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/ owner but requests for this subpoena have not responded to thus far. The deacons were told in their 2/23/09 meeting that there may be an on-going federal investigation, having to do with mail fraud or other such crimes.
It is no secret that Mac Brunson and the FBC Jax administration wanted very much to know my identity. Deacons have said so, that for over a year the church was working to find out my identity - Mac has even told deacons that the blogger was a disgruntled homosexual. Mac himself, just ONE WEEK before the Deacons 2009-1 Resolution was passed, preached on "Kingdom Killjoys", which he said were people in his church that take insignificant problems at the church, who blow them up into something big, and then talk about it to someone else to try to "rob their joy". His instructions to his church leaders, should they encounter such troublemakers was that they should be "SHUT DOWN", followed by a pregnant pause for effect. Watch it for yourself at the link below. Is this an example of a humble, patient, loving pastor teaching his people to love others, even those who might ask questions that he doesn't like? It looks and sounds to me to be a pastor who wishes to shut down people in an unloving, harsh manner, and has the audacity to instruct from the pulpit his leaders in the church to shut down people who are asking questions he doesn't like.
I always thought that privacy information like that requested by Detective Hinson was highly protected, that for a law enforcement official to get access to it required them to pass a high hurdle with much scrutiny, having a burden of some proof that the information was absolutely necessary in the investigation of a specific crime. These subpoenas were issued by Detective Hinson, approved by the Assistant State Attorney, and in a few days Detective Hinson had the information he requested.
Then, two weeks later, after Detective Hinson closed his case, I received my 11/28 letter from the Discipline Committee of FBC Jax notifying me declaring:
"You have been positively identified to us, by name and address, as the owner of fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com..."
and which banned my wife and I from the property with trespass warnings. The timing and sequence of the subpoena issuance, the closing of Detective Hinson's case, and the issuance of the letter and trespass warnings make it seem very likely that my identity obtained from Google and Comcast was then given to church officials so they could act on it and begin their unbiblical church discipline process against me and my wife.
As I said, I thought my Internet privacy AND ALL OF YOURS TOO, was something that was highly valued and protected by law. It sure looks like I was wrong. What good are Federal privacy laws if a local deputy can obtain the information so quickly - the subpoena was issued within days of the investigation opening up - and easily without any stated basis for obtaining it? Especiallly if the deputy happens to be a long time member of the church requesting it and then gives the Federally protected information to the church where he may work when off duty. And what prevents this personal information from being given to an agrieved party that claimed crimes were committed in the first place so they can cause you harm? It raises questions for me and is troubling to say the least. What else might a church be "looking into" about YOU, its members?
183 comments:
Watchdog, are you saying that they were given not just names of blog owners and perhaps IP addresses but social security numbers as well? If so, what possible reason could they give to get that, or to have that information given? If that in fact turns out to be true they can expect legal action. "Did I say that? You better believe I did". Disagreement and even infuriation is one thing; stepping over the legal line for info having nothing to do with your little anger party and acquiring personal information such as a SSN is quite another matter, especially in this day of indentity theft. If it comes out that posters' personal info such as this was released, you can be assured there will be legal action taken.
Well, watchdog, I guess FBC Jax has made quite sure this is NOT a local church matter. What exactly is the criminal activity of BBC open Forum and Tiffany Croft?
I see this affects all of us who comment on this blog. Not just a local church matter that is none of our business.
Would be interesting to hear what the Sheriff's dept would say about on of their detectives using the legal system to out a member of a church. Hmmmm, funny is it not that the crappy local fish wrapper is not investigating this? You'd think someone looking to make a name for themselves at the Times Union would be all over this.
I think I stated it previously, but I wish to thank those Deacons and others at FBC Jax who let me know what lies were said about me in the 2/23/09 Deacon's meeting, that they were told not to repeat to anyone. Thank you very much to those people who shall forever remain anonymous.
If I hadn't been informed of the outright lies about me in that meeting involving stalking, taking pictures, and stealing mail, I would never have known to set about finding the investigation reports, the official trespass warnings filed by Blount with the JSO on 12/7 against my wife for her supposed "church misconduct", and I certainly wouldn't have ever thought to find subpoenas issued against myself and my fellow bloggers.
I asked my church to tell me the basis of the allegations against me numerous times. If they had found my identity through legal means, I wanted them to tell me. They would not. If there was some other side to this story that has yet to be told that would justify these actions, the church could have told me when I asked them for the basis of the allegations. Perhaps they would have told me if I had met the Discipline Committee, but I doubt it. I believe they never intended me to find out about these measures, but wished to find out who I was, punish and intimidate my wife and I into achieving the objective stated by Mac: shutting down the blog. And then smearing my name for good measure behind closed doors with 100 or so leaders of the church.
The plan to shut the blog down didn't work - so for my better or worse - God only knows what is coming my way next in all of this...and for better of worse of FBC Jax - we are where we are.
I will also add that Mac's repeated attempts to make himself the victim and his church and the "gossips" as the villains in all of this - read his blog and listen to his 3/22 a.m. sermon - are absolutely shameless. There are plenty of victims here, but I don't count Mac, the Senior Pastor of the church - as one of them.
Anon 4:48 - take a look at the subpoenas. They are asking for social security numbers and login data...for all I know and the other bloggers know they have our login IDs and passwords.
However, I would imagine the language on this subpoena is boilerplate, that when they subpoena records from Google, Yahoo, or an ISP that they ask for the whole enchilada.
WD, this whole incident by fbc jax leadership smells really, really bad. What will the fbc jax leadership do, if more blogs follow your blog's footsteps? Will they do the same to them? How many subpoena's can they issue, before this stink reaches to the heavens? How many subpoena's does it take for the stink to reach government watchdog's noses?
It would have been lot simpler, had fbc jax leadership decided to simply address the issues than by going this route.
Now they have drawn their own noose.
Very sad story, all around.
TP: Excellent question about what they will do if more bloggers come out.
But they gave a firm answer already.
Read the Deacons Resolution 2009-1 that is proudly displayed at the FBC Jax website - they give the answer there.
Might be interesting to stand outside the church in the morning and ask the members what they thing about the pastor going after a member like this and ask them if they would do this to shut down a blog, why they would not do this if say your tithing is not as much as last year.
Think about it.
By the way, I asked the Times Union if they were going to investigate why a JSO detective was handing over information to a church about a member blogging about the pastor.
I'll let you know if I get a response. I gave them this website, like they don't already know about it. I am fuming about this right now.
WD, Wade's blog talked about an upcoming newspaper article. Do you have any more info about that?
I also want to add, in the past, I agreed with you about some things, but was not a supporter of your blog. Now that I know the depths of this church's leadership's activity, I'm with you 100%. While I previously had a problem with this type of blog, my eyes have been opened. I have a VERY big problem with the church abusing the legal system to "shut 'em down."
WD, I am reposting this comment in this post.
Wade's blog > Abuse of Authority: It Must Not Be Ignored
Having been clear about my preferences that Southern Baptists write what needs to be said and sign one's name to what is written, it is still quite disturbing to me to read the unfolding saga at FBC Jacksonville, Florida. Local Jacksonville law enforcement officers, former Florida circuit court judges, and other members of FBC, all friends of the pastor, seemed to have used secular Florida authorities to unethically and possibly illegally obtain subpoenas to reveal the identity and other private information of the owners of the FBC Jacksonville Watchdog and New BBC Open Forum and Tiffany Croft's blogs.
A local Jacksonville reporter is doing some background for a story that the newspaper will be running about this in the near future. It seems that someone in the Jacksonville Police department suggested to the reporter that the subpoenas were issued because there may be some kind of ongoing federal investigation into these blogs. I was asked yesterday what I thought of such a statement from the local Jacksonville police officer. I responded with two words.
"That's bull."
I've seen this kind of thing happen time and time again. Stupid decisions are made by certain leaders to try to "shut down" the person who is asking questions. Then, those same leaders go behind closed doors and allege the person asking questions is of corrupt character and if people really knew the whole story, then they would never doubt why "leadership" did what they did. In short, when leaders get "caught" using hard ball tactics to shut down dissent, they act as if things are really worse than they are - in order to cover themselves. I can assure you federal officials are more interested in terrorists seeking to destroy the United States than they are church members, annymous or not, who are asking questions that pertain to their pastor.
The sad part about the saga at FBC Jacksonville is that secular authorities have now been sucked into church politics. It seems to me that someone in the Jacksonville police department or court system could, at best, lose their jobs. At worst, there is the making of an enormous lawsuit for public officials abusing their authority to help friends. If you think public officials, particularly court judges and law enforcement officials, are beyond corruption, then you obviously haven't been following the the horrid story of the Pennsylvania judge who used his position for personal gain.
Whatever the case may be, and setting aside any problems within an SBC church that may be real or imagined, it is a sad day in America when the police and courts can be manipulated and used by a powerful church in the manner they seem to have been used in Jacksonville, Florida.
"If I hadn't been informed of the outright lies about me in that meeting involving stalking, taking pictures, and stealing mail, I would never have known to set about finding the investigation reports, the official trespass warnings filed by Blount with the JSO on 12/7 against my wife for her supposed "church misconduct", and I certainly wouldn't have ever thought to find subpoenas issued against myself and my fellow bloggers."
Sounds like they were building a case to get the deacons on board and needed some serious criminal activity to back up their actions. Some saw through this, Praise God!
However, what Mac did is called LYING.
I want to see the documentation of Debbie Brunson reporting a stalker while she was jogging. Or the documentation of the reports of mail being stolen. Where is teh police report? I am sure she filed one, right?
The 'investigative' report said the 'criminal' activity took place inside a 'religious' building. I assume that is FBC Jax. How can she be jogging and stalked, there. How can their mail be stolen there?
Basically, Hinson had to open an investigation to get the subpeona's. And he abused his position to do it. And he knows they were lies.
But where is the documentation of the criminal activity of stalking and stealing mail. I would think that Hinson would have made sure that documentation was included in the investigation. At least a statemnt from Debbie or Mac or something. When was that reported and why don't they produce the documents. Because there isn't one.
NOTE TO HINSON: There is a reason Mac and Debbie did not want their names on the investigation. And that is NOT good news for you.
They used you. And they used you to get information on others not in your church.
They probably thought, hey, getting this info is easy with our contacts willing to abuse their power, lets see what else we can get.
For what, Hinson? Ever think about that? Why do you need personal info on Tiffany Croft or NewBBCOpenForum? What purpose did they tell you? What was the criminal activity?
These are dangerous men. Mac is no longer qualified to be pastor/elder according to 1 Tim. He is NOT above reproach to the outside. He is a liar and a schemer. Anyone who sits under his teaching NOW knowing what has come out is willfully supporting a known liar. Forgiveness does not mean he gets to be pastor, either.
You want to save your church? Get rid of him fast. Trust me, he will end up ok with a 6 figure job at some SBC entity.
Hi Friends,
About the Times Union, there is something you need to consider. In a city the size of Jacksonville, the tentacles of a mega run deep. I am sure the Times Union will tread lightly. It might even be smarter to go the papers in the Capitol. Or Orlando.
One mega I was involved with had a great relationship with the city paper. ONe of the elders owned several car dealerships and bought full page ads every day and a whole section on Sunday's. They would even bring the publisher of the paper, who was Jewish, to certain church activities. How could he say no to a client who spent that much money every month?
Needless to say, very little was written negative about that church in that paper. Once an editorial was written about an incident at the church camp with youth and all hell broke loose and the paper even apologized!
Don't think that advertising dollars don't make a difference in reporting certain things because they do. Also don't think that certain relationships won't affect reporting because they will, too.
Matt
Sorry to disappoint the Mac lovers, but in every new development, US Mail is only deposited in locked cluster boxes. So unless someone is breaking into the box which would be fairly noticeable, that is not happening.
Brunson has tried to outsmart God,and like everyone else who have attempted this foolish act has failed...Now he has open up himself for criticism both from inside the Church and out..."Mac is a mess"....Det.Hinson also could find himself in deep trouble with the sheriff or the SA for his botched detective work....I wonder if he thought this out,or if Mac and his mighty men of influence offered Det.Hinson some type financial benefit or protection???...But as Matt stated in an earlier blog Mac has his "cake" people who are willing to run interference or sacrifice themselves for him...If they have info on me so be it!!!..What in the world has become of FBC Jax???
"The plan to shut the blog down didn't work - so for my better or worse - God only knows what is coming my way next in all of this...and for better of worse of FBC Jax - we are where we are."
Watchdog, I hope you have a lawyer because I see a huge legal fiasco for FBCJax and all those involved in "helping" get the info. As for your comment about what is coming your way next, we're here with you and for you. You've done what had to be done and it sure looks like your efforts are hitting some nerves, which means all the problems you were trying to make people aware of were legit. For Mac to let things get to this point underscores what anon 5:37 said, dangerous folks in power there. Everyone should give serious thought to a "pastor" willing to sink to this level, and anyone used by him in this mess should be afraid because if he doesn't care about his church's reputation, he sure has heck isn't worried about yours for doing his dirty work. How long before the media finally shines their light on this? Watchdog, I'll say it again: thank you for being the Daniel in this whole saga. God's blessings on you my brother.
D
TP: Excellent question about what they will do if more bloggers come out.
But they gave a firm answer already.
Read the Deacons Resolution 2009-1 that is proudly displayed at the FBC Jax website - they give the answer there.
March 28, 2009 5:22 PM
BTW: Did all those people who agreed with the resolution by standing know about the subpeona's and the criminal investigation. Did they get to see them in this meeting?
Were they told that their church members were using the civil authorities to get personal information on Newbbcopenforum and Tiffany Croft?
Or did they just trust whatever their 'leaders' told them?
Be interesting to see how they ignore this in tomorrow's worship..if one can call it that.
How can the cost of the first subpoena for 30 minutes be seven dollars and some change and then the second one for two hours be fifty seven dollars and some change? Doesn't add up to me.
Does the sherrif know that this occured? His name is on the bottom of the form. Are these pre-printed and no supervisor, sergeant, commander, or asst chief to review prior to their being exercised? Disturbing!!
Incident occured inside this location ...124 West Ashley Street..What floor, what room, who was involved, who saw it, date, time, etc. This is very very weak!!!I for one believe these forms would have to be a little more precise than this.
I am hearing a lot about what should happen but my question is this:
"Is anybody really looking to do something about this abuse of power"?
Is there any real investigation or just speculation of an investigation? Is Hinson being examined by the sheriff's department? Does WD have a lawyer seeking to help with this matter?
If no one intends to do anything then all the talk in the world will not help and the abuse will simply continue.
The good church people involved in this are no better than common thugs.
This isn't anything close to Biblical. FBC Jax operates more like the mafia.
Wonder if the phone lines are burning up between the PP gang and the thugs from FBC Jax.
"Incident occured inside this location ...124 West Ashley Street..What floor, what room, who was involved, who saw it, date, time, etc. This is very very weak!!!I for one believe these forms would have to be a little more precise than this."
Well, if we didn't know before, we now know that this is... excuse me... a load of crap! I've never set foot inside the state of Florida, much less FBC Jacksonville.
newbbc,
Are you entitled to know what crimes you are accused of to warrant a subpeona to google for your private information?
It is my understanding that google will not release this information for a civil offense. Only for criminal.
Can anyone affirm that?
Obviously Mac & Co. haven't read the Memphis newpapers in the past year. Did the story about the anonymous Memphis Police Department blogger that police chief Larry Godwin endeavored to shut down make the national news? He tried the same tack, and it backfired on him.
Commercial Appeal - July 22, 2008
Commercial Appeal - September 4, 2008
You can read the whole sordid story on the MPD Enforcer 2.0 blog. (Some content may be unsuitable for more sensitive readers.)
It starts here and continues in these blog posts.
Enforcer selects attorney
Willie speaks
Wanted!
Godwin addresses media
Blowing smoke
Calling all cars
Breaking news
Legal counsel
Larry is defeated
But this isn't the only precedent. A blogger named Frank Vance was unsuccessfully sued by Ligonier Ministries. You can read a recap of that case here.
If Mac doesn't want a big lawsuit on his hands and to bankrupt the church defending himself, I'd suggest he come clean now and back off. He's dug himself into a deep hole with this one right along with John Blount and Robbie Hinson. (Are you reading this, Steve Gaines and David Coombs?)
27.04 Summoning and examining witnesses for state.--The state attorney shall have summoned all witnesses required on behalf of the state; and he or she is allowed the process of his or her court to summon witnesses from throughout the state to appear before the state attorney in or out of term time at such convenient places in the state attorney's judicial circuit and at such convenient times as may be designated in the summons, to testify before him or her as to any violation of the law upon which they may be interrogated, and he or she is empowered to administer oaths to all witnesses summoned to testify by the process of his or her court or who may voluntarily appear before the state attorney to testify as to any violation or violations of the law.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0027/SEC04.HTM&Title=-%3E2008-%3ECh0027-%3ESection%2004#0027.04
If any "criminal internet activity" occured at 124 West Ashley Street, I suspect it was on the part of someone who works at that address.
W.D.what Mac and the his three stooges wanted was to find out who you were,present their tresspass warning to you and your family and hoped you would go away silently with a wimper. But just like the incompotent bumblers that they are it has backed fired on him! I W.D.would suggest that you now dig in and clear your name with every legal avenue available. It appears that God has put these fraudulent charlatans right in your hands. I hope that Tiffany will pursue the course now leagally afforded to her. It Is Written,BBC and any others who find out that these interlopers have illegally obtained person info to pursue all legal avenues afforded to you. "Brunson" and you "Stooges", you wanted to play rough and dish it out now lets see if you can take it! May God run Mac and his lackeys out of FBCJ and give them the kind of loving shepherd and deacons that have a heart for Jesus!
Where are all the detractors telling us it is none of our business because it is a local church matter?
"Where are all the detractors telling us it is none of our business because it is a local church matter?"
It stopped being a "local church matter" in October 2008.
Saint Watchdog,
It is sad to hear of your many abuses at the hands of the evildoers at FBC, Jacksonville. I know that the fellow abused saints in Memphis and our own Saint Wade Burleson will soon champion your cause.
Strange that we are hearing NOTHING from the leadership at your church or from the leadership in Memphis. Perhaps your sainthood is resting on rose colored glasses.
Time will tell and truth will come out. In the meantime, I hope you're enjoying your new church and certainly hope that the new pastor measures up to your standards or he will soon be another of the evil pastors in the SBC.
Mac must be really proud of his supporters who comment here.
Anon 5:55 Sorry to disappoint you and all the dog lovers
Your facts are rumor and incorrect. Deerwood has existed since 1961. Only the condos and the estate section have clusters!
Not that I could possibly care less, but for what it's worth I would guess these are the mailboxes for the houses in the neighborhood in question. I agree with a previous poster who said those don't look like million-$$$ homes.
“Beware of your neighbor!
Don’t even trust your brother!
For brother takes advantage of brother,
and friend slanders friend. - Jeremiah 9:4 NLT
Don’t trust anyone—
not your best friend or even your wife! - Micah 7:5 NLT
Provident 360: You are so right. A brother is born for adversity....Cain & Abel, Jacob and Esau, Issac and Ishmael, Joseph and his ten brothers. Jealousy and envy are the ingredients for such hatred.
WD:
Please hold the leadership of FBC Jax accountable. This kind of abuse must be stopped for the sake of the kingdom of God. Don't give up.
1. If I'm FBCJax's insurance agent/company and reading this posting right now, I'm re-reading their policy to remind myself of MY financial liabilities, not just the congregation's (can you say, "Many $$$$$ potentially"?);
2. NOT taught in Church Administration 101: "Violate the Scriptures AND the law to go after members of the congregation who ask questions about perceived wrongs". Someone tell Blount--and pull all Brunson's books off book store shelves;
3. If I'm another FBC ministry staff member: I'm wiping my brow and saying, "Woooo! Boy, I'm glad I stayed out of this!"--except that it's made ALL of you look like you have no personal or ministry integrity in regard to this matter (don't bother updating your resumes, if that's the case--which other congregation would want to hire people like that?);
4. If I'm a FBCJax member, I'm thinking, "Woooo! Boy, I'm glad I've stayed out of this!"--except that YOU are an employer, not just a church---can anyone say, "Ethical employer" and "at-will employment" and "Here's your walking papers, Pastor, and there's the door--don't let it hit you as you go out through it now"?
5. WD: stay the course, but--even more--stay near the Savior. A thing like this can eat up a guy on the inside before it's done, which this thing isn't until FBC's elected leaders come clean (how can a congregation move forward with leaders who are dishonest at worst and insecure at best?).
Anon 8:18 I am sure that is what Jesus would do!
Hold on WD. You may be vindicated yet. Exactly right anon.6:44 AM!
Off Topic:
For Windows PC users, please run the Conficker Removal Tool or at least read about this worm, that is set to activate on April 1st.
Windows Secrets > Run a Conficker removal tool before April 1
I guess an anon was wrong about the mailbox clusters. See how quick someone jumped in to correct the information? Yet NO correction to anything the WD has written. Hmmmmm. When the blog is wrong, someone is quick to correct it. When the blog is right, someone is out to "shut em down" and "put the fear of God in you" and pass resolutions.
The house doesn't look that impressive on the OUTSIDE, but you should see the finest money can buy on the INSIDE. Remember, this mansion was built AT COST and was still several hundred thousand dollars. All of the finest upgrades for our humble pastor and wife. Isn't God good? Like Tammy Faye Bakker used to sing before she and Jim were busted: "I'm Blessed, I'm blessed, I'm blessed."
Dear Dog: I am a first time poster on your blog. As you can see from my name, I am not anonymous. I am outraged that another one of these “spiritual” giants would stoop so low. See I am from the Memphis area and have had my encounters with another “spiritual” giant here by the name of Steve Gaines. I was all over him for his inactions, downright BS excuses for keeping an admitted pedophile minister on staff after getting a direct admission from this minister he was a pedophile. I posted quite a bit on the NBBCOF about Gaines.
It was brought to my attention recently that the leadership of FBC-Jacksonville through outright lies subpoenaed the records from Google of the owner of your blog, NBBCOF and others. The owner of NBBCOF is a friend of mine. I have spoken to them today and urged them to consider legal action. I would urge you too. Not only have civil laws been broken, but also possible Federal criminal laws. If I was a certain detective with the JSO and John Blount I would be worried. I bet if suits are filed, their depositions will be interesting. Will Blount lie or finally tell the truth. Wonder if they will fall on their swords for the real people behind this. As for insurance coverage don’t be surprised if their insurance carrier files a dec action against them because of their wrong doing if suits are filed. And if the carrier is successful then there is NO coverage for them. Now that is going to get someone’s attention. No I am not an attorney but I have worked in the legal profession for more years than I care to admit. I am however a licensed Private Investigator here in Tennessee. I am not afraid of these cowards. They never thought you had the contacts and friends you have. I do predict it will get a lot hotter in Jacksonville for a select few and maybe even for some in Memphis. I cannot help but wonder who was behind the idea to get the identity of the NBBCOF owner.
And I cannot believe these people that continue to “swallow and follow” and then post some of the most vile comments to you and your family and tell us in Memphis to stay out of it. For those folks you need to pull your head out of the sand down there. Our faith is under attack and not from us bloggers. We are deeply troubled when we see churches we have been part of for so long taken over by pastors that only seem to care about their selves and filling their coffers. These pastors are untouchable. You cannot get an audience with them; forget about asking them pointed questions. They have put in layers of management between them and the faithful. They have armed body guards. Why? Protect them from whom; us? Give me a break. I have recevied more than my share of death threats in calling out pastors that don’t deal with pedophile ministers properly and swiftly. I don’t need a body guard; I am saved. How many more “beating of the sheep” sermons are you going to endure before you say you too have had enough?
Dog I have been in prayer for you and your family. God Bless, Protect and Sustain you.
David Brown
(my contact information in on my profile, no subpoenas needed)
Ya know, this whole thing makes me sick. I so badly want Mac Brunson to be this great preacher, and keep hoping that somehow he is going to be vindicated and there is going to be some kind of evidence to exonerate him in this getting the IP of Tiffany Croft and now BBC Forum...(this is just getting weirder by the day.) I thought so much of Mac Brunson when I first started to go to that church. I still have family members there and they really look up to him and they are going to be very disappointed if this doesn't pan out right, and Mac Brunson gets in trouble here. So see, people who posted on here didn't really wish Mac Brunson harm or bad or evil, and they didn't disagree with his Bibical preaching either. But then, right now, I look at the facts of trying to get an IP of a victim of pastor abuse, and an IP of a person who has never even been in Florida, and I see abuse of power written all over this situation. And false accusations against the watchdog. Didn't the fact that he wrote this blog make it enough to get his info so somebody makes something up? Please say it ain't so. Why does this situation have to be this way? BUT IF YOU THINK PUTTING ON THE ROSE COLORED GLASSES AND PRETENDING IT ISN"T HAPPENING IS GOING TO WORK, THINK AGAIN. Some of just don't live life with those kind of glasses on. I wish I did sometimes, it sure would make it easier on me. And this thing Dr. Brunson says about not engaging, not talking to people who criticize....I hope you aren't FORCED to talk in a court of law, and wouldn't it be a lot easier to talk now? Explain yourself...........Truly I am heartsick over not having a church anymore, and not being able to hear the great music, and having no where to go for Easter, but I wouldn't dream of going there till there is an explanation. It makes me sad.
FYI, there have always been concealed wepons folks protecting the FBC pastor in the over thirty years I have been at FBC.
Hello Dave - nice to hear from you, I do recall reading your posts a few years ago during the PW issues at Bellevue.
Thanks for your support and prayers.
I do want to express caution, however. I do not know that there were any lies told by FBC Jax to get subpoenas issued, or even that JSO did anything illegal or unethical in getting the subpoenas. It looks mighty suspicious, for sure. I have expressed on my blog that the sequence of events leading up to my letter of accusation and trespass warnings against my wife and I, coupled with FBC Jax's unwillingness to tell me how they obtained my name and address, coupled with the lack of specificity in the detective's report used to get the subpoenas...coupled with the fact that these other two bloggers had their accounts subpoened...coupled with lies told about me to deacons alleging that I was taking pictures or stealing mail of the Brunsons yet they were told to keep silent about it...all of that has me GREATLY concerned, and it looks like criminal charges were trumped up against me and the content of the blog, that would allow the information to be obtained. I am troubled by the facts that I now know.
This week I will be filing a complaint with the Internal Affairs office at the JSO to explain my concerns regarding the subpoenas and the criminal investigation, and the insinuation that there are other open investigations, perhaps federal investigations. I want to know the truth. If the detective acted appropriately, then fine. I would like to know what the criminal allegations were that led to these subpoenas being issued, I'd like to know that the SA did their due dilligence before approving the request for subpoenas, and I'd like to know if the detective gave my name to the church and if that is appropriate for him to do that, given the church alleged a crime involving me and my blog. I can't imagine that an agrieved party that makes a criminal complaint is given personal information about the party they are accusing if there was no criminal activity found.
My wife and I are seeking legal counsel and will move as quickly as we can to obtain the absolute best lawyer we possibly can - as painful as this process is and will be, the facts that have come out about subpoenas, bogus allegations of me stalking and mail stealing that have been tossed around by church administration...we wish to have the facts aired about what has happened, and who was driving this process to find my identity so that they could intimidate me to shut my blog down. Ultimately I want an apology issued by Mac Brunson himself over how he and his executive staffers have mistreated my wife...and I'd like an apology for the lie told about Sheri Klouda to boot.
I often wonder why the church puts their 2009-1 Deacons Resolution on the main page of their website, if they truly believe this to be an internal church matter. I find it almost humorous that they display their resolution against me and warnings to others in the church, yet claim no one outside the church should talk about these matters.
Thanks again David...I will keep people posted on my blog.
One of the first things these 'pastors' do is to try to paint it a sin to have anything to do with those who disagree or question. Quite frankly, this works very well. I have seen it work many times.
Look at the folks that went along with the resolution, no deep questions asked just went right along.
David is right. They put up a false dichtonmy. First they say that those who disagree should come to them using Matthew 18. But in reality, it is impossible to get a fair hearing from a mega church pastor. I know many do not believe that, but it is very true.
As a matter of fact, most go to great lenghts to make themselves look approachable but they aren't. How can anything of value be discussed in a 2 second encounter?
Not too long ago, a mega church pastor called me and left a message asking me to call him back. I did a few hours later and was grilled to high heaven by his secretary. She wanted to know what the call was about and was a bit chagrined to think she did not even know HE WAS THE ONE WHO CALLED ME! She refused to put my call through until she confirmed with him that he really called me first!
I had no idea why he called and of course, this woman does not know me. But she has been trained to do this type of screening.
Some will say this is necessary for a mega church pastor. I say, it is just another proof why mega churches are a problem.
Mega church staffs are trained to sniff out opposition and squash it. It is vital to the financial health of the church.
To anon that so wanted Mac to be a great preacher. Keep in mind there are no great men of God. That is a huge fallacy that has ruined the Body. There are only depraved sinners saved by grace that are messengers. Understanding their own depravity makes them humble. They do not seek earthly greatness.
Paul was not a great speaker as he admits. He also teaches us that God uses what the world thinks is foolish to shame the wise and that God uses those who are not of noble birth.
Matt
Hi Matt...I'm the anon. who said that about the "GREAT" preacher. You know what I meant was this...somebody who could be trusted and who lived what they preached. Thats what I mean by "greatness".....not a great speaker with the hoopla and a whole lot of money and power.....Thats what I was looking for the preacher of the church I went to to be like. I didn't live here long and didn't know FBC Jax reputation. I thought thats what Mac Brunson was like...he may be for all I know, but this whole situation is really causing great doubt for me. I look to find a church with an honest preacher, not concerned with money and power....uh, you think any are out there? If I think going to church is going to cause me to LOSE my FAITH in GOD, I won't go anymore. Ya know? Cause that's where I've been the last few weeks, and nothing is worth losing your faith over.
Thanks for that information, Thy Peace. I don't see any contact information for Susan Bradley who wrote the article (linked from the article you posted) that tells you how to fix this, but she's got a wrong line in it.
She says to go to the following section of the registry:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\
Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\
Explorer\NoDriveTypeAutorun
There is no "NoDriveTypeAutorun" in that section.
The correct line is:
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\
Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\
Explorer\NoDriveTypeAutorun
You have to type "FF" not "0xFF" as instructed because you can't type an "x" in hex.
The Microsoft page for the patch (which, if people have kept up with Windows updates they should already have installed) give the correct instructions.
uh, you think any are out there? If I think going to church is going to cause me to LOSE my FAITH in GOD, I won't go anymore. Ya know? Cause that's where I've been the last few weeks, and nothing is worth losing your faith over.
March 30, 2009 1:01 PM
Hi Anon,
First, no one can cause you to 'lose your faith'. If you belong to Christ, you 'know His voice'. (My sheep know my voice)
But you must work out your faith with fear and trembling. Not from the words of just a mere man but from the Word with the Holy Spirit teaching you. Being saved means you are regenerated. Period. Born Again has become so cliche that we do not understand what it really means.
Secondly, finding a church is one of the hardest things in the world to do. I have another friend, a fellow traveller so to speak, who has had her share of shallow legalistic churches, too. But they move quite a bit with her husband's job so she is continually looking for a church.
Recently, they moved to a medium sized city in the deep South. She started going to the FBC there and was quite uncomfortable. It had about 4000 people and had just called a new pastor. Now, my friend is a very discerning Christian and spends most of her time in prayer and study. She said that this man looks like he is always needing to be somewhere else and is always in a hurry. He is quite slick and fits the persona of a mega church pastor with with all the right credentials. But his sermons were either beating over money or shallow on the true Gospel. Lots of cliches and 3-point sermons. The norm.
She was weary of looking for a church. So, she stayed there about a year but did not join. She just did not think she was called to join...yet.
Everyday she passed by this little country church on her way to run errands or whatever. Even on Sundays, there were no more than a dozen cars in the lot. A dying church. How sad. It was not much to look at, either.
One day, a neighbor invited her to a bible study at someone's home. She went and met a woman from that little country church and was invited to visit. She felt a keen urge to check it out.
She went and found something incredible. A true Body of Christ. This little church was more than alive. It was on fire seeking truth.
The 'pastor' was bi-vocational even though in his 60's. All this church did was study scripture in depth. NO big activities, no programs just worship, study, prayer, edification, exhortation, etc.
She said the children's study was deeper than most folks get at a typical baptist church. (this church is baptist)
She has been sharing some of the study with me and it is wonderful. This guy SHOULD be quite famous for his indepth exposition. But he will never be because he refused to hitch himself to the SBC gravy train and play the game one has to play to climb the ladder. So, he teaches in a small church of about 80 people who really do want the deep truths of the Word. He gets paid little and that is ok with him. Recently, he was even laid off his job.
Another problem is that he only teaches the deep truths which most cannot bear to hear.
A church that preaches the FULL counsel (Acts 20) of God will usually be small.
But those that do not preach the full Counsel of God,which includes some mightly uncomfortable truths,will have blood on their hands in the end. That sounds judgemental but I am only quoting Paul and what he told the elders in Acts.
Before you go looking for a church, I have some advice. Be a Berean and study for yourself. Just start reading the Word and praying. Read it all the time. Turn off TV, and curb your activities for more time to read. Use an interlinear for what you do not understand. They are free online. Scripture4all is a great resource.
Study Acts to see how the church began and what it was like. You will see it bears no resemblance to what we have today.
And do not be intimidated by seminary degrees. The 12 were not the cream of the crop academically and had no earthly credentials to impress the Jews.
If they had, they would not have been working but still studying under a Rabbi or even had become Rabbi's. The only educated Apostle was Paul and ironically, he was sent to the Gentiles! So, we see how that card plays out in God's economy.
Even so, you now have at your fingertips all the resources used to educated those in seminary without the problem of becoming enamoured with some professor stuck in an ivory tower never getting his hands dirty in the trenches of real life.
Our biggest problem is that we do not recognize how worldly our entire 'Christian' system has become.
Study to show yourself approved. And you will not be led astray.
And stop putting your hope in man. It is a dead end and you will always be disappointed.
Matt
anon 12:02 and all the rest in the dog pound! Until and if any of this goes to court both sides are dealing in hearsay! I don't think folks should judge either side based on what is blogged on the Internet! There is gross speculation on both sides of the isle. Everyone one should just me patient and see how things shake out!
I don't know why anybody would have to issue a subpoena to find out the owner of a website. Anyone can go to icann.org and find domain registrations.
Uhhh... you think those trespass notices and subpoenas are "gross speculation" and "hearsay"? Wow.
Anon 2:57,
Not if they're registered anonymously or under a pseudonym.
You can wait until hell is solid ice before you will get an apology from Mac about anything concerning you or Sheri Klouda. It ain't gonna happen.
Why don't you just move on and get busy in your new church.
Oh and btw, why don't you post your name on her so all of us who don't live in Jax can enjoy knowing the truth.
In His Service - you still here? Why won't you answer the direct questions I have posted to you? I know why...there is NO answer to them.
And "gross speculation?" Get real. Which of the issues I asked you about are speculation? Facts, facts, facts are what are being posted on this blog, along with documentation and audio and video clips.
Maybe you were TOLD it was all speculation, slander, lies and innuendo, but the FACTS are here for all to see. He that hath an ear, let him hear. You obviously don't want to hear and want to mislead others. Your posts help to point out why blogs like this are needed. Mac has tried to say the same nonsense from the pulpit, behind our backs when on the speaking circuit, and in interviews. Yet the blog continues to reveal the TRUTH.
In WHOSE Service? Certainly not HIS, unless you refer to Mac with a capital H, which wouldn't surprise me.
VOR
Anon 1:01pm..Unfortunately Churches headed by sincere men who love the Lord and His sheep more than they love money,power,prestige and prominence are becoming few and far between!!!..The biggest surprise to me as a Pastor is that people are surprise when men like Mac are exposed!!!.Again I "repeat" if all the references recorded in just the N.T.are taken collectively we are given a composite of what a religious deciever looks like!!!.They are abusive and authoritarian: "They Love the preeminence" ..They are usually covetous for money and the finer things in life...They will most definitely not teach the entire counsel of God(The less the sheep know,the better)..So many times it's not what they say; It's what they do not say(The people are not taught to be Bereans)!!!...They will desire to be served, but find the idea of being the greater servant detestable...They are implacable and unless it benefits them someway will never believe they are wrong or apologize...They because of their belief that they are superior,preach down to the people,pointing out the people's short comings(sins) and the solutions for "them";;because it does'nt apply to him(Notice how Mac preaches others faults but does'nt include himself).He is above fault!!..They are dividers of people not uniters..Compare the ministerial atomsphere's of Dr.Homer Lindays-vs-Mac; It's like day(Lindsey)and night(Mac)...Too decievers ministry is a profession, not a "calling"...And there are many more signs..There should be no surprise as to why FBC Jax finds itself in this mess!!!.Because "MAC" fits the composite!!!
Matt said....."Another problem is that he only teaches the deep truths which most cannot bear to hear.
A church that preaches the FULL counsel (Acts 20) of God will usually be small."........The itching ears crowd I have learned will not tolerate confrontive Biblical truth!!![John 6:60-68]..The result is a small congregation!!!......Matt said...." And do not be intimidated by seminary degrees. The 12 were not the cream of the crop academically and had no earthly credentials to impress the Jews".....Matt I for one fit that criteria;;no seminary degree..Just studying and pleading with God to give me the understanding for "His" glory[James 1:5]!!!.......Matt said...."Study to show yourself approved. And you will not be led astray.
And stop putting your hope in man. It is a dead end and you will always be disappointed"......... The Apostle Paul reveled in his weaknesses so that the power of Christ would be displayed in him, even calling himself the chief of sinners; An aborted fetus, saying nothing good dwells in him, not trusting his flesh...Paul stated to the Ephesians "Follow me as I follow "CHRIST"!!!..If a man is not following the example of the life of "Christ" it's imperative that you don't follow the man!!!...Also thanks Matt for the earlier advice on being a Pastor I printed it an I am taking it to heart!!!
...
VOR, with the kind of HATE that you are projecting on this blog, why not take the law into your own hands and get your revenge on Mac Brunson and his evil henchmen. It sounds like to me that the law and the facts do not really matter to you. You have made up your mind.
All of you in the dog pound, BBC, VOR and the like. Your hatred for Team Brunson as y'all like to say has clouded sound judgment. When I say gross speculation, I am not referring to the fact that subpoena's were issued and owners of blogs have been searched out, nor am I referring to trespass warrants being issued. The fact that these things have been done is irrefutable.
All of you should know by know that sound bits and clips are just that and may or may not be the truth as it is presented without listening to the entire context of the message. You certainly could not get away with that in a trial. These "clips" are not facts in this context.
The genesis of what was considered "probable cause" to generate the subpoena's and trespass warrants are really only known by the officer and the state attorney. The source of that information could be a lie or could also be truth. It all depends upon the perspective of the person or persons making the complaint.
Anything posted on this blog is "hearsay" and "speculation" until it is presented in context in a court of law. Presenting either party on this blog or anywhere else as fact does not make it so.
I do see a lot more vitriolic and venomous hate from the dog pound than I seen blogged from Mac supporters. That is not to say that there have not been some extremely ugly comments towards WD.
VOR, you keep blogging as if you are a long time active member of FBC. Team Brunson does not know you or you IP address. Why do you not personally go to him? If you are a deacon, better yet.
I can see both points of view. VOR, your insane hatred blinds you eyes to only one side and does not let you see the possibilities of both sides. I say that you have three opportunities.
1. You personally go to Mac Brunson and tell him your thoughts.
2. Take the law, as you see it, in to your own hands. I do not recommend this one.
3. Put your money where your mouth is and pay for WD an attorney.
Two last things. Sherri Klouda has nothing to do with FBC as far as I know. If there is an issue with Brunson and Klouda, all of the dog pound is barking up a tree that is somewhere else and really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Second, VOR you are BAD, BAD, BAD. If you want to challenge my spirituality, give me your cell phone and we can talk, otherwise... BACK OFF FROM ME!!!! YOU DO NOT KNOW ME OR MY HEART!!! I have seen your kind of hatred in many churches and the end does not justify the means. I certainly don't know you by what you blog here. If this is an indication of your heart, we would not associate in public, that is for sure.
I am not MAC's boy as you would like to think. Just because I have a clear and reasonable open mind to both sides all you can do is attack me. Bad form on your part.
Unless WD is willing to bring a suit that is adjudicated in a court of law, all of this blogging accomplishes nothing except to stir up bad feelings on both sides of the isle. I doubt very seriously that FBC would bring a suit against WD.
VOR, I am not out to mislead anyone about anything. That is not what I am all about. If you have been at FBC anytime at all and know me, which I am sure that you would, you would know that I am not a troublemaker. I also take everything present to me as fact either.
SO VOR, what will you do? 1, 2, or 3?
In His Service -
Sheri Klouda is relevant because Mac used the pulpit of FBC Jax to spread an ugly lie about her. Are you suggesting that Mac did not do this? Or are you like others who say that since he didn't actually speaker her name that it was a lie?
It also is relevant because Klouda was one of his former sheep at Dallas, and if he was going to make a claim that she testified that her lawsuit against SWBTS and Patterson was violating scripture...it would have been wise for him to show her the respect of calling her to see if that is what she actually said.
If the PP's lawyer told Mac the lie and Mac repeated it, then shame on the lawyer, and shame on Mac for repeating it.
Sorry WD, not famliar with what lie was told or when it was told! Not supporting either side here whether you beieve it or not!
OK, so you're not aware of Mac's lie. But go back and read the blog (summer 08), and better yet listen to the excerpt from his sermon.
Then read the response from Sheri Klouda, again, placed on this blog.
And then let us know what you think IHS.
"All of you should know by know that sound bits and clips are just that and may or may not be the truth as it is presented without listening to the entire context of the message. You certainly could not get away with that in a trial. These "clips" are not facts in this context."
Interesting. Because so many use scripture this way, too. Wonder what scripture Mac was thinking of when he went after those subpeona's?
But since I have heard Mac preach many times, I had no doubt that the clips portrayed the man I have heard.
He is hardly an expositer. More of the same self serving stuff we hear in most mega pulpits.
As to Dr. Klouda, it seems strange to me that Mac would use the same civil authorities against his opponets but think it is evil when Dr. Klouda does it for a much better reason.
I suppose it is ok when a pastor uses the civil authorities for his own fishing expedition against his opponets. But when a female Hebrew professor uses the same civil authorities as a defense for being fired simply because she is female, then it is wrong.
Knowing the players like I do, Mac was dispatched by his mentor, Patterson, to come to his defense on the Klouda affair because it was getting hot out there. I did read the depostion of Patterson and it was...well...lame to say the least. the man is a charlatan. As is Mac. And to the shock of many, SWBTS is a church. I certainly hope this revelation means they will stop taking federal funds now. But, I doubt it.
Matt
Its always fun reading pastor's posts on here that condemn all the mega church pastors--and I can assure you that most of them are envious and working in some small church in podunk hollow. Its an age old story and the pious thinking that they are the only "spiritual" pastors out there is a farce. The Bible teaches that we are deceitfully wicked so basically folks, we are all in the same boat.
For those of you think you can write on a blog as experts on which pastors are Godly and such you need to get a life. God called them and He knows their hearts much better than you do. Perhaps it would be better if you worried a bit more about the log in your own eyes. Just because a pastor preaches verse by verse, sings old hymns, makes a God out of the Lindseys and Adrian Rogers it doesn't make them a Godly preacher.
Perhaps it would be better to rename this blog about its real purpose--and that is to denigrate and degrade pastors.
Or better still, imagine what it would be like being the pastor of a church with the Watchdog and whoever she is in Memphis in your church.
Now that is a scary thought!
"Its always fun reading pastor's posts on here that condemn all the mega church pastors--and I can assure you that most of them are envious and working in some small church in podunk hollow."
Well, I am not a pastor but I have to wonder why you find this fun.
" Its an age old story and the pious thinking that they are the only "spiritual" pastors out there is a farce. The Bible teaches that we are deceitfully wicked so basically folks, we are all in the same boat."
So, a saving faith in Jesus Christ did not change you? This is a perfect example of a lack of teaching on regeneration. The thing about regeneration is you don't WANT to be deceitfully wicked anymore. And one fights it in continual repentance daily. We just cannot stay the same if we are truly saved.
"For those of you think you can write on a blog as experts on which pastors are Godly and such you need to get a life."
This is how badly that sin has been dumbed down. In this post modern world, the pastor using civil authorities to go after a member is not even considered unbiblical or ungodly. that is how far we have fallen, folks. This is not to mention all the other public behaviors logged here that folks want us to believe there is a perfectly biblical explanation for. I am still waiting to hear them.
" God called them and He knows their hearts much better than you do."
Now here is a perfect example of mega church teaching. We cannot judge anything because we cannot see a person's heart. Of course we are to ignore the teaching of Jesus Christ who told us that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. And all the warnings about hirlings, wolves, etc.
But friend, you are not taking your own advice. You are judging US and you cannot see our hearts.
No one could see Jim JOnes' heart, either. So, what is your point? We are all capable of seeing behavior.
Just because someone pastors a mega church or any church does not mean that God called them to do that. I don't even know what that means. It is so cliche. All believers are 'ministers' and are called to develop and exercise the gifts the Holy Spirit gave them. And He gives all true believers gifts.
Being a good orator is not a spiritual gift.
"Perhaps it would be better if you worried a bit more about the log in your own eyes."
I guess this means that NO preacher can preach on sin because he is a sinner? Has a log? Actually, that has happened in our churches. Except when the pastor thinks someone has sinned against him. (smile)
"erhaps it would be better to rename this blog about its real purpose--and that is to denigrate and degrade pastors."
Is this another variation of 'touch not thine anointed' we hear so often from pastors and their followers? A line from the OT about a King?
Can you tell me how many times the word 'pastor' is mentioned in the NT? Look it up. It is interesting.
Matt
Anon March 30, 2009 6:35 PM
From your post we can see that once again we are hearing from somene who is a friend or family member...
Matt: Perfect answer to anon.6:35. BTW anon.6:35 if the purpose of this blog is to degrade and dinegrate preachers why do those that have been in the Rogers, Lindsay chruches speak well of THEM. Again, SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT!!!!! Saved people know the Word when they hear it. And also btw: That's LindsAy, not ey. Obviously you didn't know either of them.
Been studying the Life of Moses in BSF all this year. Interesting that it seems that Moses lead the first mega church. At times the people were incredibly wicked and spiteful. Yet the bible says that Moses prayed for them and even interceded for them. Wow...
In His Service - how have I attacked you? I simply asked you to comment on the specific issues I listed. Your post does not do that. Instead, it calls me "bad" and says I am full of "hate." Not true. I just have some questions. But you are in good company. Mac reacted the same way. I had questions, he wouldn't answer them. You haven't either.
And yes, I and others went to him via email, with our names on them. He had deacons and staff respond by saying we were "attacking" the pastor.
Why, oh why is asking questions considered "attacking?" It is because the answers are so damaging they must never be answered and the questioners must be labeled as hateful and attackers and must be "shut down."
I hoped you would engage the issues. But you continue to choose not to do so.
But, please, spare me that I am bad, hateful or attacking anyone. Questions, questions, questions. They won't go away until answered.
VOR
What pastors have been denigrated here? Bob Gray, Darrel Gilyard, Steve Gaines and Mac Brunson by the WD and his followers.
Jerry Vines, Homer Lindsey, Sr., Homer Lindsey Jr, and Adrian Rogers by Mac supporters.
Hmmmm. Not too hard to figure out which is the RIGHT side of that debate.
And again, I don't think any pastor needs to fear having the WD or newbbcopen in their churches unless they have something to hide? What about you Jonathan Falwell? You worried about bloggers? No? I didn't think so!
When the indefensible have no defense they resort to the "You are hateful, and I am the victim" routine. Doesn't someone else do that, especially on out of town trips?
Anon 11:10 PM Throwing Mac Brunson's name in the middle of known child molesters, adulterers and pedophile defenders is not the proper fit. The issues that WD and others in the dog pound have with Brunson are not the same and I don't think WD would even lump Brunson into that other group of people.
Been studying the Life of Moses in BSF all this year. Interesting that it seems that Moses lead the first mega church. At times the people were incredibly wicked and spiteful. Yet the bible says that Moses prayed for them and even interceded for them. Wow...
March 30, 2009 9:45 PM
IF this is what BSF is suggesting, you need to get out. Israel was a nation. A Theocracy. In Jewish law it took only 10 men (a minyon) to starta synagogue. That is why there were so many when they settled in Israel.
I dare say that many mega church preachers liken themselves to Moses. That, I can believe.
When we try to teleport Jewish law or the behavior of the Isrealites into the NC, we are apt to go wrong. The OT is there for a reason: To proclaim Christ and show the character of the One True God interacting with His people. A Savior is proclaimed in Gen 3!
Many mega's use Acts 2 to prove the biblical validity of a mega. But what they do not teach is that most of these people were in Jerusalem for a religious holiday. The timing was on purpose and why so many languages were interpreted by the Holy Spirit when they were speaking. These people went back to their homes in other parts and took this message with them.
Matt
Hate to put rain on a parade for some folks, however, the church age is over. Been over for a long, long time. We are definitely in the "Falling Away" of the church. 2 Thess; 2:3. Not much salvation preaching, but rather a get rich quick ideology. Also, the idea that pastors are to be revered is totally unbiblical. They like the rest of us are stained with sin and at their best are but filthy rags. Wonder how many preachers(?) would own up to being filthy rags? But don't expect them to tell you that as they see themselves as the GREAT ONES, knowing all, and self righteous. That's why they get their underlings to do their dirty work so they can strut and act like they know nothing about what happened!!! Learn this...many are called but few are chosen..Get it...FEW.....That should tell you a lot about what is going on inside these so called church buildings!!!
WD:
I am really short on any words to describe my thoughts after reading those subpoenas.
I'm of the opinion that more than one person should lose their job...
VOR, this is the statement that I took as an attack;
"In WHOSE Service? Certainly not HIS, unless you refer to Mac with a capital H, which wouldn't surprise me."
Seems like an attack to me!
BTW, are you a man or a woman? Why, you ask? It would help me better address my answers to you. Thanks.
BTW, are you a man or a woman? Why, you ask? It would help me better address my answers to you. Thanks.
March 31, 2009 3:26 PM
Don't answer that, VOR. It is a trap. The fact he cannot tell based on your comments speaks volumns about why your gender does not matter a bit.
A good example of mega church marketing:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/megachurch-follies/its-membership-madness-at-saddleback/
Trust me, Saddleback is hurting just like all mega's are right now. Let the campaign's begin for nickels and noses.
Run away, folks
Matt
Anon 3:45,
You're exactly right on all points. If you say you're a man, he'll accuse you of being "sissy." If you're a woman he'll dismiss you as "silly." Either way, being a woman or perceived as one is about the worst insult these guys can think of to hurl at someone (e.g. Mac's "beauty shop gossip" comment).
To the anon who asked, why should it matter whether it's a man or a woman as to how you respond? How would you "adjust" your answer based upon that information? Do you think you have to write on a first-grade level if you're addressing a woman? Or do you somehow have to "tone it down" because you're addressing a woman? If that's the case then maybe you shouldn't say it in the first place.
That reminds me of this comment from another blog where a man dismissed a woman simply because... she's a woman. How pathetic.
Anon 3:45 and New BBC, what kind of conspiracy theories are y'all trying to float. Y'all are probably the same folks that believe JFK was killed by his own government, the world trade center bombings were done by the feds, George Bush sent Katrina to decrease the population in New Orleans, and that AIDS was created and folks infected to decrease the surplus population.
Can y'all not carry on any thoughts without thinking the worst? I think that this is very childish behavior, but you are entitled to act like children and not adults.
I am fairly sure, based on VOR's posts, that this is a woman. My mom is a woman and so is my wife and I would not treat VOR or the two of you like you suggest. Perhaps you treat your "friends" like that but I do not.
VOR said that she and other sent emails to Brunson and used their name. So what? I said did they "personally" go and meet Brunson. They did not. They took the very impersonal and easy way out. An email is not a valid contact on what the dog pound considers significant issues. I can understand a women not being comfortable with a face to face meeting and resorting to only an email. My spouse would also feel like that.
In our electronic age people find it easier to do email than to take the step of a personal meeting. That says a lot about society. That was my point.
As far as my other answers, I have realized that all of the folks in the dog pound do not care about anything other than getting their pound of flesh from Brunson, his wife and his son. If y'all truly cared about getting resolution on all of you allegations, y'all would band together, collect a bunch of money and "Shut him, Mac Brunson, Down"!
My opinions about all of the issues in the dog pound will NEVER change any minds because all of the minds are made up. Unfortunately, I think that the majority of folks n the dog pound are not willing to get off their assets, take up a fund, expose their names in a civil lawsuit and "SHUT HIM DOWN"!
Sooooooo, until y'all are ready to do that against Brunson, this Gaines fellow, Patterson, and the like, this blog and many others is nothing more than the Jerry Springer Show of the internet.
Wait, now that is an idea. Springer is a Hater. I bet all of y'all could get him to do a show or several on the aforementioned people and it would not cost y'all a dime. Then you could "expose" all of these charlatans and "SHUT THEM DOWN"!
IHS April 1, 2009 9:44 AM:
Methinks you have no clue about that which you protest...
"I am fairly sure, based on VOR's posts, that this is a woman."
And your point is... ?
In His Service - I don't want to "shut em down." That is his strategy. I just want him to be accountable to the folks he pastors and address issues of concern in his congregation. Since he won't do that, he invites a blog. The issues are posted and discussed, and no one, including you, can give any reasonable defense of the abuses, point to any specific lies, or show us any slander.
"I said did they "personally" go and meet Brunson. They did not. "
You must have missed my comment earlier about returning the phone call of a mega church pastor. He called ME..sometimes they forget how isolated they have made themselves ..but that is just one example of what I have seen. They are quite protected. Unless you want to have a shallow 2 sec conversation in the hall at church.
Most mega church pastors have 'walkers' on Sundays. Some of you will know what the means.
Yet they all talk about how accessible they are. They aren't.
So when I hear folks accuse others of not meeting with them, I have to chuckle. It sounds like Stalin complaining that no one ever came to him and said millions were starving.
If you know anything about history, you would know that Stalin was 'everywhere' and revered as the great approachable father. Yet only a handful could approach him.
When they got WD's name, you gotta wonder why Mac did not call HIM for a meeting? I mean, they had his SS number! It is not like they could not find him.
They have had his name for quite a while now. I am sure you have a great excuse for that one, too.
The emperor has no clothes on. But no one wants to notice.
Matt
Matt,
How old are you? Are you retired? It appears that all you do is follow this blog. Maybe you should use some of your time to do more productive things seeing as how you aren't even remotely close to the situation.
Home Skillet
"Maybe you should use some of your time to do more productive things seeing as how you aren't even remotely close to the situation."
Is this one of those comments where the Mac supporters are allowed to be insulting and judgemental and it is ok? (wink, wink)
What makes you think you have all the facts? (sound familiar?) How do you know I am not close to the situation? Remember, FBC Jax is the one that made this MORE than a local church issue. You still don't get that part, do you?
I consider warning folks out of shallow cultic churches very productive.
There is a movie out about cults you guys should consider procuring:
http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/
You can see the trailer at this blog about spiritual abuse
Your productive pal,
Matt
Matt, I really enjoy reading your posts. You are always gracious and respectful in your comments and most importantly, you keep the focus on God's grace and perfection and how sinful we all are. You're a breath of fresh air after some of the comments here. I would be honored to attend church with both you and Watchdog. God bless!
D
anon 7:23 pm I totally agree with you. I appreciate and have learned much from Matt's comments. He seems to have a deeper understanding than most. (of scripture and the way megas work)
"Matt"....please continue to blog your comments are very insight!!!
Thanks, Friends.
I am simply a product of the system who had my eyes opened. I am afraid for some folks it will take a huge crisis to see it because so much is hidden and we (all of us) have had our sin sensititivities deadened by our acceptance of it in our culture. Others will never see it. That is most heart breaking of all as they will believe they are holy for perpetuating these worldly organizations. There is so much we just slap a fish on and call it Christian.
What would have looked like sin to an agnostic 50 years ago, looks ok to a professing Christian today. As we continue to redefine sin, we are slowly boiling ourselves to immunity.
This is simply, as I found out, a lack of understanding about regeneration.
The Holy Spirit must work in us to 'separate' us from our idols. Holiness means to be set apart.
A study on idols is very interesting as we tend to not recognize them in our lives unless we are regenerated. (Born Again)
Even "ministry"can be an idol. A church building and so on. How many times did I hear leaders excuse their behavior toward someone for the sake of the over all 'ministry'. The 'ministry' became more important than people.
1 John
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
Matt
Matt,
I never said I was close to the situation which in fact I am saying right now that I'm not. I also believe you have said you were not close to the situation either. So either you lied then or you are just trying to pretend now that you are close to it (having forgotten you already stated you aren't). This is why I don't make comments about a church being a cult like you just did when I have no first hand experience with the Church! Wow.
Home Skillet
-----> Home Skillet
I never said I was close to the situation which in fact I am saying right now that I'm not. I also believe you have said you were not close to the situation either. So either you lied then or you are just trying to pretend now that you are close to it (having forgotten you already stated you aren't). This is why I don't make comments about a church being a cult like you just did when I have no first hand experience with the Church! Wow.
Home Skillet
April 2, 2009 11:46 AM
I am sorry it looked like I was not telling the truth earlier. In fact, the subpeona's changed everything.
I agree with Nass that you seem like a troll.
But whenever a brother or sister is attacked like WD was by subpeona's, trespass warnings, etc by any church or leaders of a church, it involves all true believers. We should not walk by the wounded man like the Levite priest did.
Mac is the one with all the power. He is the one with pulpits open to him all over the US. He is the one on camera. He is the one with huge financial resources of FBC Jax at his fingertips. He is the one with friends in civil authority who are willing to abuse their positions to help him.
This should concern every single true believer out there.
Matt
Agreed "Matt" 100%!!!
Matt,
You may want to refresh your definition of a troll . . . you are closer to it than anyone.
mac has your power because you give it to him. He has no power in my life because I just let him and FBCJ be who they are and when it got to where I was unhappy I left, problem solved! It really can be that simple.
The example of the levites walking by the man and using it to describe WD is humorous. WD is like the guy who has been throwing stones all along and then finally got punched in the mouth and now wants to file a complaint.
If FBCJ is what you believe it is what did you think was going to happen? All he needed to do was move on and let FBCJ crumble, its just one building in a large country . . . relax it is the destiny of most churches.
Watchdog: Please don't think about quiting or giving up. They already know who you are. So keep going. We have less and less representation, and less voices speaking for us in the Govt., churches or anywhere else.
For arguments sake,let me assume for the moment that I totally agree with everyone about all of the "Abuses of Mac Brunson". Here are my thoughts.
What do you do if the following are true?
1. 99.99% of the trustees at FBC do not agree with out points.
2. 99.99% of the active and inactive deacons do not agree with our points.
3. 99.99% of the church membership do not agree with our points.
4. 99.99% of the police officers do not agree with our points.
5. 99.99% of the State Attorneys do not agree with our points.
6. 99.99% of the attorneys do not agree with our points.
7. That giving is down strictly because many. many folks have lost their jobs and cannot see making gifts to the fellowship.
8. 99.99% of all of the above totally disagree with WD on every issue.
Assume that these folks are in total support of the trustees, the deacons, the Sunday school teachers, and the church staff and will never see things the way we do.
If all of these things are true and will never, ever change, no matter how much is blogged, or said in some other forum.
In other words, none of the aforementioned folks will ever see our point of view, nor will we ever come to theirs.
How do you think any of our writings will change any minds and hearts? Ever!
Also, lets assume that all of this goes to court and internal investigations and no wrong doing is uncovered and the Judge looks at all of the evidence on both sides and either dismisses the case without prejudice or sides with FBC. What then?
I would like to see if those in the dog pound could set aside their prejudice for a moment and look at it from this perspective and provide their thoughts. You too Reverend Matt.
In His Service: What's this "our" business? You arn't on "our" side of the issue!
In His Servive stated........"What if 99.99% of" and "In other words, none of the aforementioned folks will ever see our point of view, nor will we ever come to theirs."...........The "majority" of people who have ever lived will not follow Christ and will perish in an eternal Hell!!!...The road too Heaven is "narrow" and "few" find it;....Many are called "few" are chosen.....The gate is "narrow" and "few" there be that find it...:One" man(Enoch)so far was raptured to Heaven..."One" man(Elijah)was taken to Heaven in a firery chariot...Only "eight" people survived the Great Flood...Only "3" people survive Sodom and Gomorrah...only "two" of the spies dispatched by Moses returned with a good report Jeremiah appeared to have "no" converts and sound rejected by his countrymen.....Amos wrote that there would be famine in the Land for the Word of God,because the "majority" rejected God....Jesus stated that the "many" would be deceived in the last days...The "many" turned from following Jesus because they found His word intolerable.....Paul wrote that God ignores the "wise" and "powerful" and choses the nobodies....Peter wrote that the "many" will be mislead by deceptive relgious leaders.....In His Service you stated....."How do you think any of our writings will change any minds and hearts? Ever!"......Well let me put it this way;;;The "few" have read and understand the concerns of Dr.Dog and others about what is happening with Mac and FBC Jax....The "Many" including "you" will probably never see!!!
IHS,
We all know what "assuming" makes you and me, don't we?
In his service:
You don't seem to understand. Right is right and wrong is wrong--even if a person finds himself/herself standing alone. It's that simple.
Lemmings are lemmings, even in a church.
If FBCJ is what you believe it is what did you think was going to happen? All he needed to do was move on and let FBCJ crumble, its just one building in a large country . . . relax it is the destiny of most churches.
April 3, 2009 9:50 AM
Mulitply that by a million and you are closer to the truth about the effect mega's have in this country and Christianity. What about souls? What about truth? Right and wrong?
I am not so sure I would brag about moving on with no conscious.
I think you have it backwards. Shallow churches grow or at least maintain to a certain degree. Look at Osteen. The economy might hinder this to some degree but there are still millions who attend to be entertained, follow some celebrity pastor, and do their 'duty' thinking that is what Christianity is all about. But if persecution comes then they will crumble. Real persecution.
A missionary friend was explaining this concept to me a few years ago. He was working in a country that hated Christians. The SBC came into a little town with an American missionary and planted a church in the mtns. It grew to 150 pretty quick. It had a nice building, programs and activities. (They call them rice converts because they give food and things away and that fills the churches)
He helped a native plant another church in the same town that after several years had ONLY 10 members. taht is it. But they were only focused on the true gospel with nothing to give away to entice folks.
But then the army started coming closer and the SBC church plant emptied. The missionary left becasue of the danger and only a few were left in the whole church with their shiney new building paid for by the SBC. The native church plant (a mud hut with benches that the members built) still had the same 10.... the true Body of Christ that would not miss a beat because of persecution.
I don't care if the trustees, deacons, celebrity pastors all over the US, the attorney generals and all the police do not agree with spiritual abuse. How does that have anything to do with abusing the Name of Christ for personal gain? You and In His Service, seem to be basing your view on what the world thinks.
If we are going to look at this from a worldly point of view, I can tell you that FBC Jax does NOT want the discovery process to take place. They would love for this to go away. It is what you find during discovery that can be quite embarassing. And it may not have anything to do with this issue. But it would force them to be transparent and they have gone to great lengths to be secretive about many things.
Matt
This is my first visit to this site.WatchDog, are you Methodist? My Mother told me that Methodist are mean. This is not right. Why don't we invite Micheal Jackson to come to First Baptist and let him sing "We are the World" and bring some peace up in here. Maybe you are an Episcopalian? You know what they say...When you see four of them together, there is always a fifth!
Anon 4/3/09 7:34:
Just wow. Hey look folks, Mac posted.
The last days Church of Laodecea defies being exposed. Fact.
So sorry this happened to you and your wife.
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
Matt,
See there you go sliding in the "no conscious" part. I have been at FBCJ for over 20 years . . . it is a sad day but guess what the sun still rises.
Be careful being so right on your wrong. Ihave family still down there, I was married there, I met my wife there, two of my three children were saved and baptized down there . . .I losr alot in my mind, but it is still just a building my first church is my family and it was time to move.
You need to be careful you don't assume so much. You get on a roll and you need to remember you are just a man that bleeds the same we all do. Your not a prophet brother, just a guy with an opinion . . . and that opinion is sometimes wrong!
In His Service - even if 99.99% side with Mac...we still will "just have some questions" and call for more openness and transparency...UNTIL THEY START DOING IT!
Anon, this is what you wrote to me:
"mac has your power because you give it to him. He has no power in my life because I just let him and FBCJ be who they are and when it got to where I was unhappy I left, problem solved! It really can be that simple."
Yet, you are here.
Yet, you wrote this, too:
"Be careful being so right on your wrong. Ihave family still down there, I was married there, I met my wife there, two of my three children were saved and baptized down there . . .I losr alot in my mind, but it is still just a building my first church is my family and it was time to move."
Something is not adding up.
Matt
Anon 9:00 am. The "transparancy" at FBC is the same it has been the same since I came in 1978! What are you seeking that is any different than the last thirty plus years! Do you want an annual report like GE or IBM?
in his service,
you are correct the transparency probably hasn't changed in 30 years but the integrity/ethics of the pastor has changed...and its for the worse
Matt,
Funny how a godly and upfront gentleman such as you portray on here yet you left out the main comment I said to you. Which was:
"See there you go sliding in the "no conscious" part. I have been at FBCJ for over 20 years . . . it is a sad day but guess what the sun still rises."
I then finished my comments with this: "You need to be careful you don't assume so much. You get on a roll and you need to remember you are just a man that bleeds the same we all do. Your not a prophet brother, just a guy with an opinion . . . and that opinion is sometimes wrong!"
What does not add up? Now you question why I view this blog? Really none of your business . . . I come here for my own reasons.
Not sure how to make it any clearer. Your presence has some really focused on the depth of your knowledge but you have done exactly what Brunson did . . .you took liberties in comments you really have no knowledge of.
If that does not clear it up then not sure how to make it any clearer.
Why are you here? To glorify God?
Anon, I have lost track of which anon you are and of your original comment that started us down this road.
I do not understand your position (if you are the one I am thinking of). You seem to be angry at WD for this blog and angry at FBC Jax,too.
Maybe I am reading you wrong. I have no idea at the point.
But this really confused me:
"Not sure how to make it any clearer. Your presence has some really focused on the depth of your knowledge but you have done exactly what Brunson did . . .you took liberties in comments you really have no knowledge of."
Is that what Brunson did?
And you are right that my opinions are only my opinions and my experiences are only my experiences. Sorry to have bothered you so much. I did not mean to insult you in any way.
anon 10:55 Ethics and integrity has nothing to do with the fifancial transparency that everyone has been blogging about! Attacking the thics and integrity of Brunson and others in leadership will never move the mountain that WD and the rest of the dog pound feels needs to be moved!
My previous question still stands! If 99.99% of everyone dissagrees with WD and the rest of his supporters, not because of any other reason other than they are perceived to be in error, then what!
Saying "we will stand and keep blogging" makes no sense since no minds at FBC are being nor will be changed, what is the point?
IHS,
99.99% of Germany liked Hitler too, but the greater good for society was too remove him from power. Not saying Mac is Hitler at all, just referencing your point on that 99.99% stuff.
"Saying "we will stand and keep blogging" makes no sense since no minds at FBC are being nor will be changed, what is the point?"
I have some friends who are moving to that area and will be looking for a church. They found this blog and won't be checking out FBCJax. They appreciate this blog for saving them the trouble. How else would they have known that FBCJAX gets subpeona's to check out people who question them and some do not even attend their church!
In His service: Your opinion is your opinion. Ours is ours. There are people that have been at FBCJ longer than you, and feel the opposite of you! (As staff is checking computer records of longtime members). I didn't say I was a longtime member, I said there are some longtime members there, etc. The fact is Watchdog has rightly perceived the problems at FBCJ and has asked for answers, for which he has been targeted for destruction. In MY OPINION, Watchdog is the Voice crying in the wilderness.
Did all of WD's supporters go to his new church this morning? If you people were at FBC today why did none of you stay seated and not applauded Brunson's 3rd anniversary when he was acknowlegded? Why did none of you have the strength of your convictions to stand out in the crowd? Afraid? Fearful? Embarrassd? What?
If reading a website steers your friends from FBC what does that say? It is a good thing! After all this fellowship is doomed anyway! We are all McSheep cast under Brunsons demonic spell. All 99.99% of us poor lost souls have let this modern day Hitler lure us to sleep with his elliquent speech and persuasive ways!
It is too late for us at the First Brunson Church, but not for your friends. Perhaps WD can recommend a "good church" that he will never have to blog about.
I still think that Matt, Wd, newbbc and the rest should start their own First Internet Church. No one would have to give. Matt could be the Sheperd, WD could be the minister of communication and security! Newbbc could blog how great it is! Many could send their friends to join since there would be no concern for harm!
All of the alledged unhappy FBC members could move their letter to FIC and get deprogramed from the spells of Team Brunson, his evil enabellers, and those mean old trustees and all of the thousands of brain washed and brain dead McMembers who blindly follow this modern day McMessiah!
All of the pound pups pontification is getting old unless y'all band together and start picketing the church, calling the media, collecting money and bring suit to prove you have the "real truth" and save the rest of us poor McSheep from a life of spiritual depravity and hero worship! How about it? Start tonight at the Passion Play! We in the McChoir and McOrchestra obviously are doing this to please our sinful leaders and furthur support this fallen fellowship!
How about it, all of what must be thousands of current FBC membership according to all the pups in the pound! Help us stand up and be counted on the Dogs side by showing up and causing a ruckus? Shut us down and save us from being further brainwashed and fleeced from the evil and ungodly McLeadership? Help us Obionecanoby!
If your friends beleive everything written on the net steer them away from Jacksonvile! Murder and crime rate at an all time high! Property values plummeting! The foreclosure capital of the world! All on the web! Save them from the evil in northeast Florida!
Keep talking, big mouth. Keep talking.
Anon April 5, 2009 2:59 PM
Give us all a break! You are talking about those of us who stood up this morning and how we are not brave enough to stay seated! And yet, all of us here have taken note of the fact that you are so brave that you come here as ANONYMOUS!!! C'mon, laugh with us HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...
Anon 4:08 and others,
You're responding to a troll, probably more than one of them. That's what trolls do, and if you don't respond they'll eventually go away because it's no fun when they don't ruffle your feathers.
In His Service - if it "makes no sense to keep blogging" since 99.99% agree with Brunson according to you, then doesn't it make even LESS sense for trustees, deacons, and church staff to have preached so many sermons about the blog and its issues, sent the WD a letter stating how divisive his blog was, and used Detective Hinson to obtain federally protected privacy information about the WD. It just doesn't add up. If the blog is as useless as you claim, why are you here...and why such lengths to "shut it down."
And why such a hateful, unloving resolution proudly displayed on the church website?
Come on In His Service...the new pastor and his family came in with the A-Group as charlatan CEO's and are robbing this fellowship blind to promote their own family wealth and brand. That is not slander. That is a legitimate opinion formed after years of watching them.
Now, you were mentioning something about previous leadership since 1978...hmmm. Never a question raised about them was there? That must be very frustrating for egos as big as Mac's and Deb's. They thought we would be easy marks. Probably would have been if they and Maurilio hadn't been so brazen about it all. A little less stomping and spitting and "putting the fear of God into" people and a little more openness and transparency, and even the remaining .01% would have fallen for them too.
VOR
newbbc - thanks for the reminder about trolls. I recall you used to have many and are experienced with identifying them. (Remember "ACE?")
Thanks for staying with us.
VOR
Regarding the 3rd anniversary staged 'standing ovation' for Mac this morning...there were lots of folks who did not stand up and applaude...I was one of them. In my opinion most folks just stand because others do it.
'In His Service' notes that 99.9% of FBCers are against Watchdog, etc. That is simply not true. Many folks at FBC in my opinion are fickle.
If Watchdog comes out with a legal case against FBC for what they did and Mac and his men's 'doings' are found 'illegal' and then a spotlight is shown on the other unethical things Watchdog notes on this site that Mac has done then all of a sudden all those 99.9%'ers and 'standing ovationers' will not be the 'supporters' In His Service thinks they are.
In His Service is spreading propaganda. Don't believe his 99.9% estimate. Even watching the video of the resolution, there were several who did not stand. My guess would be it is closer to 5% support Mac and are enablers to whatever he would do. 25% understand exactly what WD is blogging about and want to see more openness and transparency before they will get on board and support the pastor's expensive plans. (Satellites and schools??? are you serious?. What's next a bus ministry? These were done in the seventies.)and the remaining 70% just go to hear the choir, keep their kids in the children and youth ministries, and hear a talented speaker give a history lesson and say a few nice things about Jesus every now and then.
I guess the problem is that 25% number used to be about 5% but when they got no answers, and attempts were made to shut em down, they turned to blogging. And the facts posted here struck a chord...and the 25% continues to grow.
99.9% is the number Team Brunson and Maurilio only wish was accurate.
Wow, I tried to take an elderly relative of mine to the Passion Play tonight. We get there at 645 and the elevator is broken in that parking garage right across the street. We are on the fourth floor and I parked right by the elevator and she can't walk. NOT ANY DISTANCES AT ALL. She would have had to walk down four flights of stairs. So I finally let her out right at the door across the street from the parking garage. Then, with all kinds of spaces left in the parking garage that I just came from, I was going to turn around and go back in and park in that same parking garage, so it would only take a minute to get back to my relative. But, alas, they slammed a cone down right on the road and wouldn't let me back in the parking garage cause it was 6:00. The guy tried to send me off a distance to park which I couldn't do cause I couldn't leave my relative that long. So, we got to miss the Passion Play. I went there for HER. She is 90. One of my other relatives was in it. She wanted to see it. But because of the nice gestapo security force at the FBC Jax, we weren't allowed to park in a place where I could work it out, even though I had just come from at least 100 empty parking places in there. Do you understand? There were all kind of places to park up there, but because of their rules? is it, or control issues is it, or what is it? we weren't allowed to park there. The usher at the door was nice to my relative, but I couldn't start driving all over and leave her there, cause I didn't know what she'd do. She's 90, oh did I say that? I took a day off of work to help her see this program. Needless to say, this has been a most discouraging night. I see a cone slammed down in one direction, and a door slamming in the other direction, and I guess, it was just so poignant....so typical....so completely typical of how I've gotten treated at FBC Jax. It is psychologically messing me up tonight, all I can see is the door slamming. I have determined in my heart that they just slammed the last door in my face. I hope the Passion Play was great. I hope it was great for those who were welcomed in I mean.
Readers: In His Service sure sounds like a deacon to me. I have seen the exact same tactics used by deacons (and staff) whenever a question is asked. They use words like "attack" and "hate" and conclude we are calling Mac "evil" etc. They just CAN'T face the issues:
Check out his response to VOR on March 30, 2009 5:05 PM - for the full unedited post. Later when VOR asked him how he had been "attacked" (which prompted the reply below), notice what he considered an attack. Hey, VOR - yours is a great example of why we blog. :)
"VOR, with the kind of HATE that you are projecting on this blog, why not take the law into your own hands and get your REVENGE on Mac Brunson and his EVIL HENCHMAN.
All of you in the dog pound, BBC, VOR and the like. Your HATRED for Team Brunson as y'all like to say has clouded sound judgment. When I say gross speculation, I am not referring to the fact that subpoena's were issued and owners of blogs have been searched out, nor am I referring to trespass warrants being issued. The fact that these things have been done is irrefutable.
I do see a lot more VITRIOLIC AND VENEMOUS HATE from the dog pound than I seen blogged from Mac supporters. That is not to say that there have not been some extremely ugly comments towards WD.
I can see both points of view. VOR, your INSANE HATRED blinds you eyes to only one side and does not let you see the possibilities of both sides.
VOR you are BAD, BAD, BAD. If you want to challenge my spirituality, give me your cell phone and we can talk, otherwise... BACK OFF FROM ME!!!! YOU DO NOT KNOW ME OR MY HEART!!! I have seen your kind of HATRED in many churches and the end does not justify the means. I certainly don't know you by what you blog here. If this is an indication of your HEART, we would not associate in public, that is for sure.
I am not MAC's boy as you would like to think. Just because I have a clear and reasonable open mind to both sides all you can do is ATTACK me. Bad form on your part.
If you have been at FBC anytime at all and know me, which I am sure that you would, you would know that I am not a troublemaker. I also take everything present to me as fact either.
And what caused the above?:
VOR, this is the statement that I took as an attack;
"In WHOSE Service? Certainly not HIS, unless you refer to Mac with a capital H, which wouldn't surprise me."
Seems like an attack to me!
March 31, 2009 3:26 PM
So you see VOR, just asking you a question, or saying you are in Mac's service, elicits such strong over reactions. Perhaps it is YOU that can not see the issues clearly. You are a great illustration of why people just don't go see the pastor, or try and express their concerns in any other way than a blog. You are not helping, sir.
Anon. 2:59 Re: your comments.... Truth is stranger than "satire". Standing in order to show some type of "approval", or affirmation, is how we get most of our problems.
Wade's blog > Seed Faith Giving Makes Some People Rich
Last December WCNC Television, a Charlotte news station, broadcast a six minute story on The Inspiration Network, a Christian television broadcasting network out headed by CEO pastor/evangelist David Cerullo and his wife Barbara. It seems that the Cerullos pulled in 1.6 million dollars last year in salary, excluding benefits. The Cerullos preach a prosperity gospel message, and it is worth those interested in Christian television to watch this television news investigation regarding The Inspiration Network.
This blog is hilarious. It's interesting though to hear your thoughts and concerns watchdog. I totally agree with freedom of speech on the internet!! :) However I find this blog hilarious in that people are constantly complaining about one church over the internet. I say Big deal. Move on. Good night how long has this blog been going? Years? Yet the author has only recently moved from the church b/c of a subpoena?! The church I go to is awesome and I'm sure there are content people at this church, FBC JAX and also discontented people. Isn't that how it is EVERYWHERE? LOL As a journalism student, I don't understand why you kept your identity such a secret? I mean, yea you have every right to write this blog under the law so don't let others discourage you, but why do you keep your identity such a secret? Don't they call those people in real life spies? LOL I think it's pretty cool what the detective did b/c that's some hard stuff to come across!! He had the DL for real. Have a great day!
You think its COOL to invade the privacy of people? Let me know how COOL it is when you get to write about the Nazis coming in to the church to "get" people who disagree with the government, journalism student.
Wade Burleson has a good post on the INSP network, of which Mac Brunson used church funds to put himself on the network. Here is my comment I left over there:
There are a lot of charlatans out there. But it could never be MY pastor could it? No way to know with so much secrecy. But the Bible says we can know them by their fruits? Most likely your pastor is not fleecing you, but some things to look out for?
Does he receive large personal/private gifts from millionaire members?
Does he get his house built at cost from rich builders?
Does he live in a million dollar + house? (Requires big salary to qualify for loan)
Does he put wife on staff? (This adds to the actual total compensation for him/family)
Does he dare also put children on staff?
Does he travel the preaching circuit preaching at seminaries and conferences all over the nation?
Does he miss time from his local church duties to publish books?
Does he promote Holy Land trips he leads every year?
If ANY ONE of the above is true, you should look closer at church finances and begin asking some questions. If ALL of the above are true...well then, your pastor is MAC BRUNSON!
VOR
It was one year ago that Mac Brunson tried to raise $180,000 to begin broadcasting on INSP network.
I was critical then, that $180,000 was not a necessary expenditure when at the time we weren't even on the 316 network on the Internet.
At the time we weren't told how much was raised for the special offering on Easter Sunday, but later in the year the INSP network broadcasts began.
Question: now that FBC Jax is in a new fiscal year, did they put the INSP network programming costs back into the budget? Are the tithes and offerings of the good people of FBC Jax going in part to line the pockets of the hot shots at the INSP network?
Watchdog, appreciate your blog and look forward to reading it. Thanks for your courage and conviction in continuing to speak out. I hope you will not be bullied or intimidated by big fish swimming in such a little pond. You were wise to get out of that pond but there is no reason that you should stop being concerned about the environment in which all those other little fish choose to exist on Sunday mornings, Sunday evenings and Wednesday evenings. I've known the big bass as far back as High Point, NC. He's still the same old fish...just a bigger bass now. As far as the subpoena is concerned, it seems to me someone at the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office is not "minding the store," when it comes to the actions of Detective Hinson. Perhaps, the Mayor and the Sheriff need to be informed that one of their detectives is engaged in inappropriate, unprofessional, perhaps even criminal conduct, and should be severely disciplined or fired. If they will not deal with him because it is the right thing to do, perhaps they will do it from enlightened self-interest: fear of the ballot box where citizens will deal with them.
"VOR"...This is what I've been noting all along!!!..Mac looks no diffent(other than his delivery)than Jakes,Copeland,Dollar,Duplantis and the rest of these faith fake televangelist!!!..Remember this "anytime"; and I mean "anytime" you have a Pastor or religious leader who is covetous and living extravagantly off of the offering of the people,this is always a sign that you are dealing with a deceiver!!!
There are a lot of narcissists out there. But it could never be my fellow “brother” could it? No way to know with so much anonymity. But the Bible says we can know them by their fruits. Most likely your “brother” is not slandering YOU (unless you’re a pastor), but some things to look out for.
Does he receive attention for his slander?
Does he make himself look like the good guy by making others look bad?
Does he try to destroy the credibility of anyone who does not participate his lynching?
Does he attack the one’s whose character and reputation is impeccable?
The one who is in the spotlight?
Does he become fixated on his “cause”? To the point where it consumes his thoughts, actions, words?
If ANY ONE of the above is true, you should look closer at your friends, family, and siblings in Christ and begin asking questions and confronting the sin. If all of the above are true well then your “brother” is…. Well I’m not going to make any accusations! :)
Another good response to a post over on Wade's blog about how twisted some gullible sheep are when it comes to their pastors living like CEO's of major secular corporations:
To the anon who seems to think a $1.6 million salary is okay since it represents only 3% of the total revenue...that is warped thinking. How much is enough? Why not take a $600,000 salary in that case and give that $1 million to the Lord's work?
Should the shepherds be taking a percentage? Is this biblical? No wonder God tell the priests in Malachi 3:10 - "you are robbing me" and when they asked him how, he told them "in tithes and offerings." Those priests were probably using the same logic you use and were not bringing the whole tithe into the storehouse after the Israelites had brought the food to them. Modern day priests also are robbing God by keeping so much of God's tithes and offerings for themselves!
Hey anon April 6, 2009 2:28 PM -
1) looks like you are "attacking" the person asking questions and not questioning the abuses listed that Mac has done.
2.) What part of that list is a lie or slander?
3.) Whose character and reputation is impeccable that he is attacking?
4.) Why are you anonymous on here?
1. I was just posting some things to look for if trying to determine narcissistic behavior. I wasn't pointing any fingers. You use the questions I posed for your own decision making.
2. What part of what is a lie or slander? I wasn't referring to any particular "part" of anything. It was a question.
3. Again I wasn't applying this to any particular situation. :)
4. Why do you think I'm annonymous? Because I don't want people to know who I am :). Why are you annonymous? LOL.
I'm curious as to what type of label you put on church people who violate someone's privacy for WHATEVER reason, be it disagreeing with the people in charge of the church, blogging, etc. What label do you put on people who make up false accusations about church members if they disagree with the leadership of the church in, oh, a blog or HOWEVER they choose to disagree. Is disagreement truly a CRIMINAL act in the USA now?
How much more do you think the Watchdog, and all the others who had these "criminal" complaints filed against them have to fear? Do you think they will start being followed? Phone harassed? Get nasty mail? Keep hearing all kinds of phony accusations being hurled at them and their families? Somebody will try to get the "goods" on them by hiring a private investigator? Or will somebody just use the cops to do their dirty work for them? I mean is this a pattern in the southern baptist church, cause its funny....I've already seen all this done in the past in a distant state, and I bet there are others on here who could testify to it too...so I just wondered.....
Does the word narcissist come to mind when you see things like THAT?
Or power mad? Or control freak? Or people who don't care about the basic right of privacy? Or unconstitutional? Or what word DOES come to your mind? Just wondering.
Oh, and is wanting to be in control of EVERYTHING said in a church by ANYONE...is THAT a sin to you?
Anon 4-6 2:28PM: There are narcissists out there, et..... How do you breathe with your head in the sand?
Anon: Re percentages Vs. Tithes& Offerings etc.....What percentage do the "get rich of the church, and believers, really earn? What percentage of the Cross did they share? What percentage of sins can they forgive? What percentage of God are they? What percentage do they deserve in light of who Jesus is? "Jesus paid it all. All to HIM I owe". Not to a church, a preacher or any earthly entity. And contrarty to the attitude of many, I deserve nothing, but I pray for mercy from ,Jesus.
This annon.6:47: I meant to spell "get rich OFF the church, and further down contrary. Please forgive my bad typing. Thanks.
We blog on month after month and Mac AND Debbie AND Trey AND Maurilio continue to cash those salary checks for tens of thousands every month. Isn't God Good? Amen?
Praise God WE didn't get that raise. We would be in even more debt. And praise God for the bad economy, Amen? That is God dealing with us. Amen?
anon 10:51...You are right on. If you got that pay raise you might blow it on a Med Cruise or a trip to the Holy Land!!!
Isn't it just a wonderful addition to the FBC Jax home page to have that "deacons resolution 2009" up there in the right hand corner?
When people read that they are just gonna feel the luv flowin' from FBC and will no doubt want to go and find the love of Jesus at FBC.
They must be kidding! I wonder whose hair-brained idea it was to put that there. Gee, you don't s'pose it's the same bad-idea people that thought the resolution up in the first place, do you? Yep, it probably was. Here come da judge...
WD Did you file a complaint with JSO last week? Did they tell you anything?
"I wonder whose hair-brained idea it was to put that there."
The term is "harebrained," but you may have a point. Did Mac's hair grow inward and scratch his brain?
Many folks are trying to stop watchdog sites on churches and ministries by calling it sin. Here is an interesting post:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/
What Ingrid missed is that Challies is now in the author business and wants to sell more books and design more ministry websites. You can't do that by naming names.
Here's an interesting comparison. Which side do Mac and FBC Jax most resemble?
I remember Dr Lindsay preaching that people will disappoint you every time. Notice that every time.
It is no wonder people hate churches AND Christians. Can you imagine would could be done for the kingdom with all the time that was put in to running this site? God must be proud.
People must always remember, there is your side, there side, and then there is the truth. I am sure we are not getting all the truth on this blog... very few of us reading can make ANY judgments about this because we do not know all the info.
And old preacher I once knew (and did not really like all that much) used to say, "People vote with their attendance." If you do not like things leave, I think God is big enough to take care of those that do evil.
Acts 5:38 — “For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
"People must always remember, there is your side, there side, and then there is the truth. I am sure we are not getting all the truth on this blog... very few of us reading can make ANY judgments about this because we do not know all the info. "
That would be the whole point. They don't want you to have all the info. It would make them look worse.
But you have enough to know there is a serious problem.
Thing is, they WANT you to think there is some other information that would completely exonerate them. But for some reason, they cannot be open about it. They WANT you to blindly trust them. They expect you to obey their titles. They want you to think their titles make them some kind of specially anointed men of God. (no such thing)
You are most willing to believe that, aren't you? YOu are more than willing to believe that secret bylaws, huge salaries, nepotism, big land gifts and subpeona's are Christ like behavior. Are fruit.
You have bought into the shallow teaching that we cannot judge a tree by it's fruit. Yes we can. Jesus taught us to.
BBC, excellent comparison you linked to. We can see it is all about power, influence and money. If more folks really knew scripture in context, they would not fall for the likes of Brunson.
"People vote with their attendance"..... They do and I have. This is why the church is over 1/2 empty most services. Guess people have voted, not to support this regime. But to have your church home stolen, to the point that you have no choice but to leave, certainly leaves a bad taste.
Great blog. Lydia, I am sure many agree.
Acts 5:38 — “For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
April 8, 2009 10:15 AM
Interesting use of that verse. The problem becomes in recognizing what is from God and what isn't.
In another passage we see a slave girl telling everyone that they were proclaiming the gospel but she was hurting the cause.
Too many these days think that it is from God if attendance grows. It could be that folks like having their ears tickled like at Lakewood. Some think it is from God if a person holds a title that sounds godly such as elder.
What becomes even more confusing for professing Christians is to think that something is from God when actually it is from hell but looks successful to outward appearances.
Nothing takes the place of true discernment from the Holy Spirit. Many here have been given facts...the subpoeonas are not lies...yet refuse to see they are following a hollow man and are in a dead church.
Matt
Lydia: You are so right! You obviously are one of a few who have spiritual discernment. Also, if it looks like a skunk, smells like a skunk,then it is a skunk. Thanks for your insight.
Matt - Thank God for you. We adore you! All you Matt-haters out there only drive Matt's points home. In fact, the Matt-haters all seem to be Mac-homers and are therefore already of questionable intergrity, if not full-on corrupt.
"People vote with their attendance"..... They do and I have. This is why the church is over 1/2 empty most services. Guess people have voted, not to support this regime. But to have your church home stolen, to the point that you have no choice but to leave, certainly leaves a bad taste."
There is an SBC mega church I am familiar with where some well known SBC leaders are involved. They are trying to take the church more FIC and strictly elder led. (It has had congregational polity for many years) They are doing it in a backhanded way so as not to cause alarm and a mass exodus as this is an older SBC church that has expanded quite a bit in the last 15 years.
Thing is, if someone raises too much of a fuss (as some deacons did) they WANT them to leave. As a matter of fact, one of their advisors told me this to my face at a dinner party last year. He said, good riddance to them.
My point in this is to say that if attendance is dropping off, my guess is that plans are in the making for attracting a newer member base that is more in line with their vision for the church. You would not believe the marketing strategies churches use to fill seats and coffers. It is downright Madison Ave. I got sick of hearing the word 'branding' coming from the lips of professional Christians. Every person, program and activity was a 'brand'.
Matt
Matt,
That's been happening at Bellevue for some time now. Not long after Steve Gaines arrived, Donna Gaines was quoted as saying (paraphrased), "This always happens when we go to a new church. We always have to take out the trash."
Now that most of the "trash" is out, they're trying to rebuild. The congregation is noticably smaller, younger, sloppier, and more ethnically diverse.
Matt,
Please explain FIC for those of us who are a bit slower on the uptake.
To Whom It May Concern:
I have never set foot in the state of Florida.
I have no idea what "possible criminal overtones" there could be to anything I've said on the NBBCOF or any other blog.
I have never been contacted by anyone with the JSO.
The JSO subpoenaed Google's records for the NBBCOF.
I do not know if Google provided those records or if the JSO subpoenaed my ISP's records, but I intend to find out if they did.
NBBCOF,
Let us know what you find out.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-04-08/story/unmasked_blogger_blames_first_baptist_sheriffs_office
I'm not a memeber of FBC, nor would I ever consider BEING a memeber! Not just for the fact that I am not a Baptist, but also because FBC is the most crooked organization in Jacksonville!
It's sad when one feels he/she cannot aire grievances regarding church issues to the leadership directly. When questions regarding doctrine, which, by the way, ANY Christian of any sect has a right to do, they are chastised? What kind of church is that? Is the congregation blindly follow their leader rather than educating themselves regarding doctrine and bylaws and challenging them when the leadership is wrong? Sounds more and more like a Cult than a legitimate Christian Fellowship.....
Can you believe that Mac call the Dog a sociopath? A sociopath! Brunson calling anyone a sociopathic is just to funny! I looked up the word sociopath in my dictionary and there was a picture of "MAC" NEXT TO IT! Mac Brunson calling someone a sociopath[LOL].
Dr.Dog I had little respect for Brunson before I read the Times Union article...Now I have none!!!.I googled the word sociopath and I find that Mac is the one who displays sociopathic behavior!!!.Anon 11:19pm I agree with you it's unbelieveable that Mac can call anyone a sociopath!!!.It continues to get "WORSE" and "WORSE"!!!
Wow! And here I thought the only assault the FBC was carrying out was on this city's cultural growth and freedom of speech/expression. Now I find out they use similar tactics on their own members! What an utter load of crap.
Makes me think, though...do I need to be a member of the FBC to get one of those fabulous banishment letters? Lord knows I would proudly frame that and hang it in the entrance to my house.
Good job for fighting the good fight and standing your ground with these thugs! It truly boggles the mind that these people can so easily forget that this country was founded by people who were trying to escape the very type of religious persecution they are themselves waging. Small minds indeed.
"Please explain FIC for those of us who are a bit slower on the uptake."
I noticed Matt must have left before he saw your question. So before the topic turns totally to the inevitable, FIC stands for "family integrated church."
It's much more than the name indicates -- which is simply having families stay together during church rather than having age-segregated Sunday School and other activities. It's a whole "movement" centered around patriocentricity and the radical elements of the homeschooling movement. (Think Vision Forum.) Here is a site with links to several of the big pro-FIC sites. (They misspelled their own website name at the top of the page. LOL!) Voddie Baucham is one who is particularly into FIC.
Other articles:
The Pros and Cons of the Family Integrated Church Model and Movement
Under Much Grace Blog (57 tagged articles)
Wade Burleson
Wow...MB won't respond to anonymous emails but he WILL make a diagnosis of an anon blogger. Maybe he IS in the wrong profession.
I've not had time to read all of the comments, but I have some of my own! SHAME on the preacher @ FBC and SHAME on Det. Hinson! I really don't want to believe that one of my own Law Enforcement brothers would stoop that low, in order to appease that CULT (FBC)!! All I've ever been told is, "FBC holds Jacksonville by the 'do-dads', so don't ever cross them!" I have relatives who are long-standing members there, and they are MONSTERS to anyone who does not support their church and their beliefs! He even told his own sister that her deceased husband was on his way to Hell, because he wasn't "born again". IT's a freakin' CULT!!
Hey, WD.....please feel free to expose those corrupt members and "employees" of God. We'll be cheering you on!! And God is truly on your side! AMEN!!
I wonder if Detective Hinson realizes that his indescretion of exposing you has exposed HIM (publicly) as member of the First Baptist Church Cult! Now, the public and his JSO brothers and sisters know what kind of a crooked organization (FBC) he is associated with. Kind of ironic, isn't it. It came back and bit him on the butt!
Please don't bring the FIC model into it. This model is biblical, but it is under the authority of the Scriptures not elders. The elders do derive their authrotiy from Scriptures but can not circumvent the Scriptures by any means.
I did know the google could apply them with such information. Do they not realize that they are setting a dangerous precident? And if they have so much energy to do this...why is such a church not tryin to find out the "wolvish" perpetrators in our midst? I am afraid VERY MUCH AFRAID that too often the so-called prominent ministers in this country have fallen asleep themselves to their own slothfulness, wealthy ways, and show their people no model of "standing in the gap." May God help us all!
I don’t the whole sordid tale here. But THIS I do know: God knows the whole story and exactly who is guilty of what. I also know this entire mess gives Christ and Christians a black eye!
When men with positions of authority are given blind trust by their supporters, then human nature being what it is usually leads to some sort of abuse of that power. Preachers certainly aren’t immune to this phenomenon! The completely innocent person with nothing to hide wouldn’t respond so vehemently to criticism as the pastor and his cohorts seem to have done.
The church initiating an investigation using the secular authorities, in response to what is essentially just criticism, sure reminds me of something done by the Pharisees in Jerusalem a couple of thousand years ago!
What did you expect? It's a religion, after all. This is what religions do. Take away their police power and tax exemptions and their influence and wealth shrivels away. Get some help from the local atheist group to drop your addiction to religion. They will know good lawyers if you don't already have one. If the godbots continue to hound you, get restraining orders or whatever is appropriate.
Good heavens, man. I really sympathise with you but on the other hand what does it take for you to see reason?
There is neither the time nor space here, but you simply MUST broaden your horizons and see the REAL light! Religion was and continues to be nothing but contrived simply to control its constituents. There is NO proof to ANY of its assertions.
None.
Honestly. Read and consult with the PhDs that study this their whole lives!
Hopefully, then you will be able to treat these "pastors", these stains upon the earth, these pariahs,with the utter and unerring contempt they patently deserve!
Sorry but it's true. And demonstrably so, unlike FB etc.'s nonsense.
Paul, Oviedo
What kind of a church has a "discipline committee"????
Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord but.... I think you ought to "OUT" every business owner that is a benefactor to the church, every business that has benefited by the church's hand and lead a boycott of them as a matter of principle. Maybe if enough people get hit in the wallet by their association with this dictator / pastor they will straighten him out and the Lord will "call" him elsewhere... like Mogadishu or the Barbary Coast... i hear the pirates are doing pretty well for themselves and would probably share the booty with a worthy leader. And yeah... I'm anonymous because if I ever get discovered, I'll be investigated too! I have been twice over things in my personal life which have no impact on my daily job so I'm used to it!
Best of luck to you and your efforts!
This is really shocking! I am sorry you have been outed in such an awful way. Time that the law comes back to the side of the Just.
Please Do NOT let this just fade away.
The States Att. office and police are civil servants and you have a right to know what specifically made the subpeona possible.
Sue Google and everything will happen from there, they will not go down by themselves.
All involved in this high tech witch hunt should be fired.
I know that as a conservative Christian, you're probably leery of them, to put it lightly (lol), but you should seriously consider contacting the ACLU. I really believe they would back you up and help you fight legally. It is so blatantly obvious that your 1st Amendment rights were violated. I really wish this story would get national attention. This is just further evidence that the "good ole boys" mentality still plays a major role in our country. I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm not a religious person, but I hope you do find a church home that embraces you with open arms and values you for caring enough to stand up and demand your pastor be held accountable for his actions.
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