As the legal process grinds on very slowly like "mills of the gods", its quite interesting to see what others are saying about this particular legal case involving the police investigation into a Watchdog blog, and the First Amendment free speech and establishment clause implications. There has been Christian media coverage, but also secular, non-Christian, and anti-Christian blogs and media outlets have taken an interest in this story even moreso. As it unfolds in the legal arena over the next year, interest will likely continue to increase.Here are a few recent ones worth reading:
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This blog continues to be open for discussion of these topics.
And anonymous speech is welcomed.
87 comments:
Mac Brunson is giving the nominating speech for Jim Richards? I see that Peter Lumpkins likes Mac. That is certainly NOT an endorsement I would want knowing Peter as in always I am....Peter. One of the most arrogant SBC Identity bloggers in the SBC.
Boy, the SBC is dead. Nothing but a bunch of dry bones. That they would allow Mac on ANY stage right now says a lot about their low standards for elders. The Holy Spirit has left the SBC.
They certainly have no qualms about violating 1 Tim!
Mac Brunson has lost his moral authority to lead FBC. He should resign.
Read what he writes in Chapter 16, The Pastor and His Ethics, page 183, of The NEW GUIDEBOOK for PASTORS, by Bryant and Brunson.
"Some pastors unintentionally separate themselves from their people by living in executive houses and driving luxury cars...Guard against greed. It will do you in."
Even as he authors this book, he has his million dollar house built in an exclusive gated communtity in Jacksonville. All the while he drove back and forth to church in a beautiful, baby blue, luxury Jaguar automobile. I have to admit it was nice.
It is difficult for me to respect this pastor as a leader and to continue to tithe to support such luxury living.
Today I visited another church for the first time...it won't be long and we will leave FBC.
"All the while he drove back and forth to church in a beautiful, baby blue, luxury Jaguar automobile."
He drives a jag? Baby blue? Is he one of those who complains about the effiminate church? :o)
Mac is preaching at the SBC Pastor's Conferance and his wife is one of the speakers at the Pastor's Wives Luncheon.
All any of those current Pastors Conferences and SBC Conferences are for is to try to keep the "party" going. They slap each other on the back, call each other brother and sister, all the while knowing they are phonies ripping believers off so they can live grand lifestyles. Talk about people that need to be saved!!! What else are they going to do, get a real job? Where else can they go to get money out of people in this large an amount?
I would not for anything be in their shoes, or stiletto's on judgement day. Talk about seeing the wrath of God!!!!!! From observation, this is my opinion.
Mac's preaching at Bellevue in August on a Wednesday night during "Awesome August."
Described as:
Hear from a line-up of America’s premier preachers and Christian speakers at "Awesome August" each Wednesday in August at 6:30 p.m. This year’s speakers are:
August 5:
Richard Owen Roberts, President, International Awakening Ministries
August 12:
Dr. Mac Brunson, Senior Pastor, First Baptist Church, Jacksonville
August 19:
Dr. Jay Strack, President, Student Leadership University
August 26:
Dr. David Platt, Senior Pastor, The Church at Brook Hills
May 11, 2009 8:35 AM - NAILED IT!!!!
Sometimes I think that they are contributors (but not the cause) of why we are no longer a Christian Nation. The unsaved are appalled by what they see from the so-called Church.
These SBC pastors and ministers (at most levels) remind of a bunch of Goodfellas, if you know what I mean!
Well, New BBC Open Forum, here's a little bit of advice...stay away from the church that day or the next thing you know you'll be getting the boot out of Bellevue too!
They also have a thread going on topix.com local for those who might want to read it. You dont have to be a member to blog. And it now as about 270 comments.
"The WEASELS (Mac and Debbie Brunson with John Blount) who level trumped-up charges rarely suffer consequences for siccing the cops on their enemies while they snicker in the background. Too bad. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” is not only Florida law, it’s also the Ninth
Commandment, blasted onto the stones of Mt. Sinai."
This quote (with my comment in parentheses added) is from this week's Folio Weekly, which has a good article that explains why Jacksonville is so renowned as a crime city. One of the listed reasons is explained below and is exactly what happened to the WD. I can almost see Blount and Brunson and Hinson and Soud sitting back and "snickering."
From Folio Weekly:
Victims of the Badger Game.
Too many people are in jail based on verbal or written complaints, made by others, without evidence
or corroboration. I myself was the target of such an outrage. One of my enemies mailed an anonymous letter to the sheriff stating that I had filed false police reports as
part of some low but unspecified skullduggery prior to an election. For two weeks, I was pursued by a Det. Montgomery. My attorney (Dale Carson) finally put an end to
these cop hijinks with the appropriate tongue-lashing.
Others are not so lucky. The same Mr. Anonymous complained to police that a friend of mine had caused him “mortal terror” by bumping him with his big belly at the condo mailbox! My friend had to defend
himself in criminal court. Big bellies, are, admittedly, blunt instruments, but can criminal
intent be inferred from wobbly breadbasket? Must the honorable judges of the Fourth Judicial Circuit hear such foolishness?
The weasels who level trumped-up
charges rarely suffer consequences for siccing the cops on their enemies while they snicker
in the background. Too bad. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” is not only Florida law, it’s also the Ninth
Commandment, blasted onto the stones of Mt. Sinai. Last time I checked, it’s still on the books."
If Mac is preaching at Bellevue, you can be sure Gaines will be coming to Jax soon enough. Like football teams that schedule home and home series, these guys come speak for $10,000 at your church, and then they pay you $10,000 to come speak at theirs. Nice gig, if your congregations are wealthy enough, and are willing to neglect the needs of those Christ came to serve. I mean what is the best stewardship of those thousands...give them to Mac so you can hear him preach one Wednesday night right? This is supposed to be "God's money" but it is going to line Mac's pockets. Givers in Bellevue should stop giving until their church starts showing some better stewardship.
Jesus can not be happy with this use of "His" funds!
I've seen several comments indicating that Mac needs to take his own advice (regarding accepting large gifts and guarding against greed) from "The New Guidebook for Pastors". I agree that the book's advice should be taken, but are we sure that Mac wrote those parts of the book? I don't have a copy of it, but, if anyone has one, does it say which chapters or sections were written by Mac and which were written by the co-author, James W. Bryant? Just wondering if maybe Mac isn't familiar with those concepts because he didn't write them.
Junkster - it doesn't matter which author wrote them. The implication when a book is co-authored is that both men know what the other is writing and agree with it lest they put their name and reputation on something they disagree with. If not, then whichever wrote it should at least state "this is my view, however, my co-author strongly disagrees with my advice on this point."
I believe we can all safely assume that Ergun Caner and Mac Brunson agree with all those "reasons churches die" even if Mac wrote some and Ergun wrote others.
Since Mac is a "man of God" and "man of integrity" you are not suggesting he co-authored a book that he actually disagrees with do you?
Junkster - it wouldn't surprise me if Mac didn't write anything in that book but just received royalties for adding his name as co-author. The way he sells time from the platform during PC makes this a real possibility. Prostituting the platform at FBC Jax, or prostituting the names of FBC Dallas and FBC Jax to help sell a few thousand more books wouldn't surprise me.
But even Mac would proof read what he put his name on wouldn't he? Or maybe, more likely, is he feels the book is for "real" pastors, and not mega church CEOs like himself and Steve Gaines?
Or more likely, he never thought people would pull the land deed and see he was gifted a $307,000 piece of land just three weeks after he arrived AND read his book and see what a hypocrite he is.
I think a lot of mega church pastors suffer from an identity crisis. They do not know who they really are so they attend different seminars in the attempt to find out who they are. They do know who they WANT to be. Millionaires!! They will be told by other mega church pastors just "how good they are" which produces ego within them. Some thrive in these circles but as time goes by they need more and more "ego builders". It is somewhat like an addiction. Money, power and fame are the rewards of this addiction. This also helps them keep on the "cutting edge" and in the mainstream of Big Time Branding.
They know they can get paid for their books and speaking engagements and realize that eventually they will have "run the course" and funds will dry up, therefore, they want to get as much gusto now as they possibly can. But, a lot of congregations are now catching on which should help deplete these arrogant self made millionaires. Its all about the MONEY and showtime. "Enter center stage...turn up the lights, showtime!!!"
Junkster 2:25: I certainly hope Brunson READ the book before he put his name on it and had it published. Isn't it a bit disingenuous, to write a book telling others what and what not to do and then break every premise in it? Plus, this is REQUIRED reading in SBC seminaries!!! I think it might be required to boost book sales. After all, who would buy it?
The Baptist Mafia has watchdogs everywhere.
You guys need to unite somehow in A Christ like manner to oppose what is now happening within this millionaires club.
How can I help?
and oh yeah, Topix is notorious for deleting post that these preachers view as opposition and truthful, so don't waste your time with that outfit.
So does the watchdog mafia!
"They will be told by other mega church pastors just "how good they are" which produces ego within them. Some thrive in these circles but as time goes by they need more and more "ego builders". It is somewhat like an addiction. "
It is funny you mention this. They might have good relationships with other mega church pastors teaming up to cross promote books, speaking at conferences, etc (its a business, always remember that) but there is a huge element of competition, too. One mega church teamed up with Willow Creek quite a but but most of the senior staff could not stand Willow Creek. It was for show and profit only. Partnering with Willow Creek made economic sense but at the same time there was a constant race to outdo them in everything.
One area of competition besides numbers is positive press from both secular and Christian sources. That is a huge topic and they are always competing for positive press.
The converse it true, too. Negative press is another competing point. And the more negative press on another mega church or pastor sends the senior staff of other mega's into meetings to avoid the same things.They know that mega's are usually lumped into groups. Sometimes this is good but it can be very bad, too.
Matt
"Matt" What you are saying is so bad that it has to be true! I've been in Church's where the Pastor's and Deacon's were out of control,but never in my wildest dream did I imagine that so many churches could be so self-absorbed and so far away from there purpose of exalting Christ! I really initially thought that these types of situations were in the minority,but now I see it's far more prevalant than I could imagine! Matt please continue to shed the light of your experiences with these types of men and there ministries,they have been a tremendous eye opener for me and others. Thanks for awaking the sheep to these unscrupulous individuals and their methods of operations!
For a LONG time we have questioned Mac Brunson's "call" to FBC. Add in all the unethical things that have taken place since the very day of his arrival and the questioning is no longer necessary in order to make a judgment call on that question.
We could no longer "hold on" 'til Mac Brunson is gone. We are gone!We are now part of the growing number of former FBCers. We were there for 20 plus years and it was a tough decision but we have no doubt that it is the right decision.
We could not continue to worship there under his "ministry" because Mac Brunson is mainly about Mac Brunson. There is not a sense of worship there anymore except perhaps as one would be required to "worship" under the watchful eye of an overseer. As long as you don't state your opinions, you stay busy and back him up in all of his wrong decisions, you will be safe there.
We'll check back now and then to see how the lawsuit is progressing, so please continue to keep us all informed. It was WRONG for Mac to bring the law into a church matter but it's too late for him to undo that now. It is unbelievable to me how easy it apparently is for lies to be told by those who are preachers & staff! How shameful! Even the secular world can plainly see it for what it is! Get caught in wrong-doing and come out lying! That is simply not acceptable to even a secular world. I have heard the word "hypocrite" used in reference to FBC in the past -- but never, until recent days, had I heard it so very many times in conversations about FBC. I've been in a few restaurants in recent days where I've overheard conversatons referencing the hypocrisy of FBC's Mac Brunson! Because of the name-calling alone, Mac Brunson needs to resign!
At the very least, Mac Brunson, John Blount, Judge Soud, and Detective Hinson need to all be publicly reprimanded for what has been done to Mr. Rich and his family and for "bending the law" to suit their purposes. At best, they should all be removed from any responsible positions with FBCJ, JSO etc.
We'll let you know if our new pastor gets a warning letter stating that we are "troublemakers." It wouldn't surprise me at all! Y'all know how those pesky negative church members who are busy about the Lord's Work are always the trouble-makers :-)
"Matt" What you are saying is so bad that it has to be true! I've been in Church's where the Pastor's and Deacon's were out of control,but never in my wildest dream did I imagine that so many churches could be so self-absorbed and so far away from there purpose of exalting Christ! I really initially thought that these types of situations were in the minority,but now I see it's far more prevalant than I could imagine! Matt please continue to shed the light of your experiences with these types of men and there ministries,they have been a tremendous eye opener for me and others. Thanks for awaking the sheep to these unscrupulous individuals and their methods of operations!
May 12, 2009 10:43 AM
Brother Rod,
No one believes it....
... UNTIL...they have an 'experience' of some sort to partially open their eyes. Even then, most think it is something pertaining to their situation only.
And many remain quiet because they see how the victim is usually blamed because in our systems the leaders are worshiped to a degree.
You have to be willing to take MORE abuse to speak out.
Most cannot grasp that it is the system which produces the 'abuses'. That system includes our seminaries where human hierarchies are advocated as biblical in the Body of Christ, instead of the Holy Priesthood, service and servanthood.
The advent of the Internet has been a huge help in rooting out the abuses of these systems. People can choose to investigate and prayerfully decide support of such systems.
But what we are seeing is that pastors and leaders are responding by calling bloggers sinners and gossips. One SBC state convention ( GA) adopted a resolution against blogging. They are not to be questioned or held accountable. (We now know the story behind that resolution and those that voted for it stand guilty of protecting heinous spiritual abuse. I pray they will publicly repent)
They will fight this tooth and nail, even covertly, as we have witnessed with Tom.
More and more spiritual abuse groups are forming. I read of one today that is focusing soley on the abuse of staffers in churches by leaders. I think the name is the Barnabus Group.
My prayer is that many will wake up and stop funding these palaces of entertainment with their CEO pastors. I pray they will prayerfully study the Word and what it models as the Body of Christ. We are so far off track, it is scary.
A fantastic book: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Jeff Van(something)
He also wrote another book: When God's People Let You Down.
This last book is very helpful as he shows us how to dig down deep and come to grips with our own lack of spiritual discernment.
And that is what all this is about: The lack of spiritual discernment.
Matt
After being a faithful member of FBC for over 15 years, I finally visited another church here in Jax. Much too my surprised, I found several former FBC families. There response was what took you so long..?
I went back to FBC for Mothers Day and I could not believe how old the service felt. First of all the music was so dreary, old, painful, and oh so slow. Of course the special music was a repeat of two or three decades ago.. Of course Dr. Brunson preached a good sermon. But more than anything I felt as I had walked back in time. Why don't they see this and bring the church into 21st century? Did I also hear them ask for more money for the preschool renovations? Haven't we been trying to raise money for those renovations since Mac has been here ? Good gravy.. Also, instead of spending our time, talents and TITHES on this blogger mess, we should be focused on reaching the lost, evangelizing the city of Jacksonville..
Matt - you said there are groups for staffers that are abused. I kinda find that absurdly laughable because in my experience, I've found the staffers to be just as arrogant, condescending, unaccessable and some, downright mean, as the Senior Pastor. I've witnessed staff and so-called "leadership" be very, very nasty to the sheep. And some of those staffers, no matter how random their job is, are still paid an unbelievable amount.
I don't know, I'm just kinda done with the whole SBC thing and definately mega-churches of ANY denomination. Matter of fact, I'm really kinda done with church period. Still a sold-out Believer, though! Amen
We love ya Matt!
"Matt - you said there are groups for staffers that are abused. I kinda find that absurdly laughable because in my experience, I've found the staffers to be just as arrogant, condescending, unaccessable and some, downright mean, as the Senior Pastor. I've witnessed staff and so-called "leadership" be very, very nasty to the sheep. And some of those staffers, no matter how random their job is, are still paid an unbelievable amount."
This is typical. It is learned behavior in systems just like in families. The abused become like the abusers. The arrogant learn arrogance in the system because it is valued. They pick on those they deem 'below' them. They look up to the leaders and emulate them. It becomes normal.
It is a definite problem and they should get out of that system before it affects their behavior.
Just a quick story about something related to this. In one mega, the VP of HR got very arrogant with an elder and some of the staff under that elder's pervue because he was privvy to the fact that other elders were standing against this lone elder on an issue. It was the typical power play on elder boards.
This VP, coming from a fortune 500 and should have known better, even made fun of this elder to staff. He was on a roll because he did not like this elder. And even though he was brought into confidence to advise on this issue, he mistakenly thought he would be protected. He thought he was in the club. Big mistake. He lasted one more year and was taken out over something unrelated so everyone could save face. (To save the reputation of the Elder that recruited him away from the Fortune 500)
What he did not realize is that the lone elder was out playing golf with his opponets after the meeting.
They are all wolves who eat their own, use people, teach them how to be arrogant and abusive and throw them away.
Matt
There is a wonderful blog about spiritual abuse and what is happening to take over churches.
http://www.thewartburgwatch.com/tww/blog/blog.html
They post new articles every M-F and have done excellent research and reporting on the mega church and other spiritual abuse issues.
BTW, does not the Bible have many (thousands?) of verses about the rich and powerful who do not provide for the poor and downtrodden. And few verses about issues like abortion and homosexual sin. Yet we hear about the latter a lot from mega pastors and little about the former. Why? Because their hypocrisy would be so much more evident, driving Jaguars from million dollar houses past homeless people to their plush offices with security systems and personnel to keep them from encountering the least among those Jesus loves. BTW, he did say that you aren't going to heaven unless you take care of those poor people!!!
"They are all wolves who eat their own."
Matt oh my gosh, I promise those were my exact words when I left another FBC church that is not FBCJ but one closely related to it.
Well, actually I said "They shoot their own wounded." But the sentiment is the same.
Readers: Here is a thought-provoking article from an atheist blogger:
Baptist Tyranny: Pastor Mac Finds, Bans Blogger Critic
Anon 2:58 Re: Your comments to Matt":
I am a past member of a SBC church.
I must agree with your comments. I was treated unfairly by leadership in general time after time. (Same church) But, it became worse when a preacher decided I was not in awe of him and thought him compromising in some areas of his ministry. What was my sin? I actually thought for myself on spiritual matters. I used the spiritual discernment God gave me through His word, plus I did not worship the pastor. That really turned the heat up on an already adversarial relationship with staff and leadership. I must say that because I was not wealthy, socially prominent, or related to some one who was, I was already no one in their eyes. I actually received (unwarrented) nasty comments behind my back, that I learned of much later. And in even nastier treatment, I was marked and taken out of all areas of service, which I loved, not because I was inept, but as a punishment for "offending" the powers. It becomes a "gang warfare." But, here is where it is revealing as to how these people operate. They try to convince you and others that it's ALL YOUR FAULT. They talk about you behind your back. You are the "last" to know of any action to be taken against you. People who know very little of the Bible, who are socially in the "club", and who have little or no spiritual discernment come to "judge you". They come to see you to "straighten you out". To get you on the "right track", according to them. The odd thing is they are usually being told what to say, about what YOUR problem is, and HOW to handle you. It takes awhile to figure it all out. But once you get it, then you see what these people are all about. You spend some time trying to figure what you did wrong, and then it becomes clear. They just didn't like you or you ticked someone "important" off and you are to be set straight and punished if you don't fall in line. And ultimately if you don't "bend the knee",and get in line, then you are marked, shunned, and through the coldness of people toward you, you probably leave. I, like you, probably will never attend another church and certainly not one in the SBC. I have waited a long time for an apology from the "powers". I guess this is not one of their "strong points", so I must wait for a ruling from the "Higher Court". Jesus loves me, has always been by my side, and I probably am closer to Him because of this experience. I love His word and I witness every chance I get for Him. The good thing about being out of this church is, I am free of the politics and the pettiness. "Even so come quickly, Lord Jesus"!!!
"BTW, does not the Bible have many (thousands?) of verses about the rich and powerful who do not provide for the poor and downtrodden. And few verses about issues like abortion and homosexual sin. Yet we hear about the latter a lot from mega pastors and little about the former."
The war against the culture is where they are able to rally unity. The culture becomes the common enemy and all movements need an enemy to unite them.
That is why you hear so much about homosexuality, feminists, the decadent culture from the pulpit. It serves to make us feel better about ourselves because we are not like 'them'. (No, we are WORSE)
The SBC has become horribly known for fighting the culture and aligning themselves with politics.
The problem with this it is that it is not biblical at all. Study 1 Corinthians 5. Paul tells us to judge those INSIDE the Body. Not the outside world. We would have to leave the world in order not to interact with the lost immoral of the world.
But we are not to tolerate liars, perverts, etc. within the Body.
But our churches do just the opposite. We rail against the outside world but tolerate all sorts of unethical and immoral behavior in the Body by our leaders. We excuse it saying, no one is perfect.
And we wonder why the world finds us as hypocrites.
Matt
I notice that Anon 10:21 blogging in the "Lawsuit" section admonished us for not mentioning that people were saved at the South Campus. Just because people are still getting saved doesn't mean that Mac is NOT in the wrong regarding the land gift. God's Word does not return void. Mac, however is still hypocritical and needs to repent or resign. And, God can use anything to get His message out, even a jackass.
Anon 11:54AM
Nicely put!!! MAC needs to resign..! And you are right, God will use a major JackAss to get his word out!
"I notice that Anon 10:21 blogging in the "Lawsuit" section admonished us for not mentioning that people were saved at the South Campus."
Saved or became members? Those are interchangable words at mega's.
How do they know they were saved? Walking an ailse, saying a prayer and even being baptitized does not mean one is saved. Were their hearts truly regenerated?
I fear for those who use ... 'folks are being saved'... as an excuse to ignore so much sin in the church.
As if one cancels out the other and the Holy Spirit gives you a credit for each person. It does not work that way. Look at what Jesus told the Pharisees about this:
15"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. Matt 23
My question is what do the folks who walked the ailse there think they are being saved 'to' or do they think they are being saved 'from' something?
Matt
"How do they know they were saved? Walking an ailse, saying a prayer and even being baptitized does not mean one is saved. Were their hearts truly regenerated?"
Matt, how do you know people at your church are really saved?
" Anonymous said...
"How do they know they were saved? Walking an ailse, saying a prayer and even being baptitized does not mean one is saved. Were their hearts truly regenerated?"
Matt, how do you know people at your church are really saved?
May 13, 2009 1:03 PM"
The point Matt is making is the that walking and aisle does not a Christian make! So to boast that the south campus had people saved is spurious at best.It is true "
faith" in Christ and His Word that saves!Judas appear to be saved,so much so that the disciples trusted him with the money. Yet in John 6 Jesus disclosed that He had chosen them(the disciples)and one of them was a devil! Jesus stated that wolves would be among the sheep,dress as sheep! Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8 professed salvation and was baptist only to be proven later that he was a fraud! Jesus in Matt.7 revealed that "many" will profess that they know Him,and will claim many wonderful works done in His Name; Christ will not deny their professions of work,but will announce to these professors that He never "KNEW" them! Anon 1:03pm though people walked the aisle at the south campus,that will never legitimize many of Macs actions!Especially how he(Mac)has handled the WD situation!
"How do they know they were saved? Walking an ailse, saying a prayer and even being baptitized does not mean one is saved. Were their hearts truly regenerated?"
Matt, how do you know people at your church are really saved?
May 13, 2009 1:03 PM
Very good question. And one that cannot be answered fully in a comment because, for one, in the end we do not know who will be saved. See Matt 7 for a chilling verse for those who look saved on the outside but are not:
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
But, we CAN judge fruit of sancfication for those who profess Christ as Savior:
1. Have they heard the full counsel of God? (Acts 20) Paul said there was no blood on his hands because he preached the FULL counsel of God. Not just the parts that people like and easily respond to.
Usually, we cannot get past this one because most people in our churches have not heard the entire Gospel and have no clue what really happened on the Cross. They think Jesus died for our sins but that is not the full picture of what happened on the Cross.
2. Once justified..always sanctified. We change. Not overnight but overtime we are being sanctified. Sanctification can look so ugly to the world and to other professing Christians that they think God is punishing for some sin. But God only disciplines those that are His. So beware. (Read Hebrews 12 prayerfully)
"6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1
The sin we once loved we now hate. that is what Born Again means. We cannot continue in willful sin. (Yes, we still sin because we are not God and we still have bad thoughts but our sin will not continue to be willful) Hebrews 10
3. We love in more than words. In deeds and actions with no expectation of reciprocity. This is a natural outcome of the Holy Spirit indwelling. 1 John
The Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit.
"16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." Rom 8, Hebrew 10, 1 John 5
The Holy Spirit is indwelling in us. We are in repentance daily. Repentance is not a one time deal. it is continual until Jesus comes back. We are growing in Holiness. We are given a new heart to replace the heart of stone (Ez 36)
4. We want to Glorify God. Not man or ourselves. We defend His truths no matter how unpopular it makes us or how much it convicts us. We do not pick and choose.
The thief on the cross did none of these except to believe that Jesus was Messiah. But if anyone reading this thinks that means they can wait until the last minute after confessing Christ, beware. that is willful sin and possibly the sin leading to death. (1 John)
A person who is saved, works out their salvation in fear and trembling.(Phil 2)
1 Corin 6
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
I wish some loving person had approached me 20 years ago and told me I had no fruit of sanctification in my life and showed me why. I may not have believed them except to try to prove them wrong by scripture and by doing so been convicted by seeking the truth.
Salvation is free. It is a gift. It is pure joy. But the Christian life is no picnic. It is not easy. Picking up our Cross and following Him 24/7 is a contant struggle against our flesh. It is not about high positions. It is about being lowly servant to others and a slave to Christ.
I had it all backwards for many years. But these things are rarely preached and for a good reason.
Matt
Bro Rod, I keep forget about Judas! Very good point. God allows the wheat and tares to grow up together until the day of Christ. that is really a scary truth.
Matthew 13
30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; butgather the wheat into my barn."'"
Which is why we MUST be in deep scripture study alone, prayerfully, and not just depend on human teachers. (We have the BEST teacher) We must have discernment when we listen to anyone preach/teach. We must be Bereans. And we must admonish new believers to get into the Word alone, prayerfully so they will not be deceived like I was.
Matt
Sorry that I'm not a better computer guy, but the link below shows the haughtiness and disgust that Mac has for his critics, in very rare form! It totally disgusts my soul. I'm not a member, or a former member, and am glad that I can say that. I don't know how many of these sermons I could have sat through. I pity those still left in the pews. I'm guessing that the ones left are the blind sheep I'm seeing on this video. Again, I'm so DISGUSTED!! Watch his "HAHHH!!!" right after the music. (Sidenote: I'd fast forward through that too. It was rough.)
http://viewers.316Networks.com/viewer/load_page.asp?networkid=3001918&pagetype=notifyus
Atticle from Advertising Age on church marketing:
http://adage.com/article?article_id=136541
Excerpt:
"Indeed, part of the problem is that they've been outmarketed for years. The megachurches and seeker churches are packing the pews by offering professional-level entertainment, while traditional churches struggle to drum up enough in the collection plate to pay expenses.
"Why go to the old boring stale church down the street when you can drive 15 miles out to the suburbs and feel like you're pulling up to Target? They've got music, lights, sound, things for the kids to do. It's DisneyWorld inside their doors," Mr. Abare said.
I have stopped attending the SBC church that I was a member of for many years. I cannot count how many times I see former fellow members. Their first question ALWAYS is; "What church are you going to"? Without fail. Then they look at me like I am a heathen when I tell them I no longer attend church. I have my own Bible study, prayer time, and I stay very close to the Lord. I no longer have the problems and distractions of "THE CHURCH" to frustrate my spiritual growth. I really do not need a "preacher" to "explain" Gods Word to me. I let God do that. Besides most "preachers" don't PREACH. And most are very shallow in their attempts. I get almost nothing from them. I ask the Lord to bless my reading and understanding of HIS Word. I trust Him to do that and He does.
BTW I was saved many years ago when preachers DID PREACH. Also BTW the verse about not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together is to the Jews, not to the church. Thanks.
"Which is why we MUST be in deep scripture study alone, prayerfully, and not just depend on human teachers. (We have the BEST teacher) We must have discernment when we listen to anyone preach/teach. We must be Bereans. And we must admonish new believers to get into the Word alone, prayerfully so they will not be deceived like I was."
Matt
May 13, 2009 2:36 PM
Matt I would add as well "If any lack knowledge ask God"! If any believer will humble themselves and ask God to reveal His written wisdom to them! "HE" will![James 1:5]! Matt I as well was one of those decieved at one time by the celebrity Pastor.
Also BTW the verse about not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together is to the Jews, not to the church. Thanks.
May 13, 2009 3:11 PM
It was written to Jews who became Christians. They were obviously city dwellers but we do not know if it was Rome or perhaps Jerusalem. So, the admonishment to meet with other believers still stands. We need the edification, accountability and admonishment that brings.
The reason for the admonishment to not forsake assembling together in the Book of Hebrews is because they were being perseucted and not meeting fearing persecution. It was likely heating up because the Temple is mentioned and we know the Temple was not destroyed until 70 AD.
Assembling together does not mean in a church building. It can be a few believers meeting at your home like the early church did.
In their research for Pagan Christianity, the authors found that the largest churches during the early days was about 70 people. They met in homes. Evidence was found in one city that a home had been remodeled to accomodate about 70 people packed in. Most were most likely smaller.
Invite some believers to study and pray with you! Many are quitting the institutional church. And are finding solice in doing so.
"I cannot count how many times I see former fellow members. Their first question ALWAYS is; "What church are you going to"
I got that exact same question for the first couple of years after I left a big-arse FBC chuch that is not J but one like it.
However, seeing as how I found out that I could not trust ANYONE from that place, I absolutely refused to tell their nosey arses. You shouldn't tell them either. Why do you feel like you need to give out that kind of information? The kind of resposes you've been getting should tell you.
Ya know I'm reading over all this massive QQing and asking my self how you bunch of self-absorbed cry babies even manage to live your lives with all this pitiful hate you keep gushing from the sore you call a mouth (or, I suppose fingers).
You honestly are a communited BONDED by the loathing of another human being. Describe for me how that is Christian. And all this pissing and moaning about how Mac needs to resign...really? The mercy you show will ultimately be shown back to you. Better not slip up or the stones may be coming your direction next. Everyone wants mercy, no one wants to extend it.
"but, but, lolcats, you don't understand. I'm butthurt because we were ripped off and he is greedy and evil and deytookurjobz!"
Unfortunately, I suppose your backwoods theology wouldn't permit you to see the world in a different manner other than "Preacher get money. Money bad. Church member smash!" It's ok though. Your shallow lives will probably not contribute much to our glorious human race anyway, so I suppose it's good that you have these group therapy sessions to make each other feel better about your miserable souls.
<3 Lolcats
@ Lydia
Thank you for your half-informed, yet altogether brainless interpretation of Hebrews. I'm glad you managed to fudge around it enough to justify your own lack of commitment to any type of assembly. But that's cool, cuz it's just you n Jesus amirite? Removing the aspect of community from Christianity shows how little you truly understand about the movement in a historical sense. Good job.
Lolcats: Don't forget...Judge not less you be judged. Thats a biggee.
LOLCAT
I smell Troll. Or just Trey Brunson checking in.
All trolling aside...by throwing in the towel on the church (universal, not fbc), you are contributing to the problem. You are part of the church, whether you want to be or not (as a follower of Christ at least). You have to fight to make things better, not go and cry in a corner.
You have to fight to make things better, not go and cry in a corner.
May 13, 2009 5:48 PM
Judging by your banter, that would include throwing the faggot into the pyre. :o)
Go back and read my comment again. I specifically said NOT to forgo assembling together. That may mean a special 'temple' of brick and morter with a steeple on top, to you.
But that certainly was not NT since WE NOW house the temple and God resides there. Werever WE are together, is the church.
Many are leaving the worldly institutions that that call themselves "churches" but resemble nothing of what we read in the NT.
Lydia: You are so correct. Some people falsely believe if you don't go into a BUILDING you are not attending church. The early church met in gardens, around fountains, by rivers or streams or in houses...much like the upper room. For myself I much prefer staying home and skipping the show. You really do not get any real Bible from these guys. Oh, you get history and current book reports and maybe a little bible verse thrown in, but thats all. Its really not worth your time to get up, get dressed, and drive yourself to these places...all they want is your money...they have no idea who you are unless you suck up and pay the piper. The Kingdom of God is within you and the Kingdom of Heaven is a real physical place and I for one cannot wait to see it.
Lydia, this was my original point, that I do not have to be in a "church", or even with the "body of believers" (so to speak) to worship. I find my most satisfying and substantive time alone with my bible and the Lord. It is true that where two or three are gathered the Lord is there also. But He is also with me in whatever "state" (condition) I am in. I find that most churches today are dead spiritually. If not they are seriously ill and dying. I am further finding that "organized religion" is more harmful than helpful to the cause of Christ. I do not need to assemble with others to worship. And I don't need to be "accountable to anyone but Jesus. After all others are not accountable to me. They never were when I was in church for many, many years. The only thing I ever "liked" about "church" was the actual verse by verse bible preaching that the preachers THEN preached. I am sorry to say those preachers are mostly gone today. I say mostly as there MAY be a few left somewhere that really are preachers. I just don't know any now. Therefore, I worship alone with my spouse and my bible. I do have real christian friends that feel as I do, but we do not worship together.
I do not now or have ever gone to FBC Jax. Truth be told, i dont know the last time i was at a Church. I have however read of the Watchdog and his recent trouble with the Good Pastor Mac Brunson. I understand he was kicked out of his own Church because he started a blog about what he felt were abuses done by said Pastor. So is this the way they treat you at a Babtist Church? If i have a question do i get a tresspass warning served on my family and i? Well im just a poor dumb country boy, but that dont seem like a very good way to treat people. So i guess i will continue my backslide or better yet, Check out the Catholics. At least they have some pretty Churches.
Poor Backslider: No this is not typical of all Baptist churches just those that have secrets and do not intend on them being told. Its a control over the gullible sheep who, for some unknown reason believe they have to be there in order to be in church. There are SOME good Independent Baptist churches out there you just have to check them out. I wouldn't worry about the pretty buildings as the Lord is eventually going to burn them all up...thats how much He thinks of them. Have a great day and keep checking out some of those churches as you might just find one. Also, remember you do not have to be in a building in order to worship...it can be done most effectively by yourself..."study to show thyself approved of God a worker that needeth not to be ashamed".
One last thing: The church is becoming more like the world...you don't matter anymore, all they want is your money and for gooodness sake don't question anything the leader (s) has to say. That is unless you are ready to be kicked out and go to war!
Wow - haven't checked this blog in a while, but from what I read today (and in the past) - just a lot of bitter people wanting a place to vent...
Thank you Anon May 14, 2009 8:24 AM. Check this post out Lolcats. That's how you handle posts with class!
LOLCATS: You sound like a Brunson to me, too.
anon 10:00 p.m. - you hit the nail on the head when you wrote:
"For myself I much prefer staying home and skipping the show. You really do not get any real Bible from these guys. Oh, you get history and current book reports and maybe a little bible verse thrown in, but thats all. Its really not worth your time to get up, get dressed, and drive yourself to these places...all they want is your money...they have no idea who you are unless you suck up and pay the piper."
No wonder we are in a "post-christian" era. It is just a matter of time until these churches die. Maybe I should write a book called "Why Churches Die." Oh, somebody already wrote that? And they blamed it all on the sheep and no blame was put on the pastors of the sheep? Let me guess...Mac Brunson wrote it, right? With a co-author again, right? Was it required seminary reading too? Wow, P.T. Barnum has nothing on Mac and the SBC.
Wow - haven't checked this blog in a while, but from what I read today (and in the past) - just a lot of bitter people wanting a place to vent...
May 14, 2009 9:35 AM
The irony of your statement is that it is bitter. :o)
Interesting verse considering those that think the numbers mean right:
Exodus 23:2 (English Standard Version)
2You shall not fall in with the many to do evil, nor shall you bear witness in a lawsuit, siding with the many, so as to pervert justice,
Anon 2:21 PM.... Out of context....Old Testament law (EXODUS).... and you used the English Standard Version (more confusion). So... what are you trying to say?
Anon 2:21 sums it all up perfectly! You see the Exodus command violated in our government and in our churches. If a person gets their way then it must be right instead of comparing to a standard, the bible for the churches and the law for the government, and then determine the proper course of action. Exodus says do what it right, not what benefits you if it violates the standard. Very clear, very basic. Very easily overlooked by a lot of people.
The Jax WD could be compared to Martin Luther.
When Luther called the Catholic church on the money the pope had while trying to ring more cash from the masses he was excommunicated and declared an outlaw.
Excommunicated and an outlaw, sounds familiar.
Why doesn't Mac go back to NC? They loved him there. Mayberry, Andy, Barney, and the boys have good karma. Floyd gave him a good haircut, have you seen Mac's hair lately? Yup, they loved him NC, they just got off the turnip truck.
Anon 2:21 PM.... Out of context....Old Testament law (EXODUS).... and you used the English Standard Version (more confusion). So... what are you trying to say?
May 16, 2009 7:58 AM
HOw is it out of context? I am NC all the way and see clearly this same thing taught in the NC. Does God change? We are not under the law but would that mean this passage is meaningless to us right now today?
This anon gets it right:
"If a person gets their way then it must be right instead of comparing to a standard, the bible for the churches and the law for the government, and then determine the proper course of action."
Yes, just like the Israelites, we pervert justice and refuse to use God's Word as the standard. We make up rules to go along with our flesh such as if a person wins in court, they must be right. Or if a pastor (priest) does it, it must be ok. Or we are not to say anything because they have the title. We even see many folks at FBC Jax who think Mac using the Magistrate for church business perfectly ok. What? He does not trust God to protect him?
See how that works?
We are more and more like Israel all the time.
ESV is ONE translation out of many. I have some concerns with certain passages. I believe it is more of a political translation to promote hierarchies and sometimes literal word for word can bring us some very strange passages.
Here is another translation of that verse. If I knew how to copy and paste the interlinear I would use that.
NKJV
2 You shall not follow a crowd to do evil; nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after many to pervert justice.
Holman (SBC Bible)
2 "You must not follow a crowd in wrongdoing. Do not testify in a lawsuit and go along with a crowd to pervert [justice].
I was at the Wed night service preached by Kev King. I nearly spit my kool aid on the lady in the pew in front of me whe Kev said "Your preacher and staff are gods gift to you" and "when you grumble against your pastor and staff you aren't grumbling against them, but grumbling against the head, the Lord Jesus Christ."
My kool aid I was sipping nearly came out of my nostrils. Then Kev threw in a few defenses of small groups, two references to the wonderful theology driven ministry, and comparing the change under Brunson to the change under Lindsay and Vines.
I was looking for the teleprompters.
An Anon posted this comment today in an old article:
"First of all, what article or amendment in the US constitution guarantees the right of privacy or anonymity in free speech? You have the right to free speech and I have the right to know who is saying it.
I, you, Dr. Brunson, the JSO and every other citizen in this nation has a duty and responsiblility when it comes to public safety. That, sir, is your downfall. You crossed the line from a private matter into a public concern. Let's see if you are worth your word and post this anonymously.I will gladly post your comment, I don't mind at all. In fact I responded in the old thread you posted in, and I'm posting it here also.
Maybe you're right, but I don't think so.
Do a bit more research on anonymous speech and you might be surprised. And also, don't forget to look at "establishment clause" of the first amendment.
Here's a few links to help you get started in your research:
http://www.eff.org/cases/manalapan-v-moskovitzand
http://www.eff.org/issues/anonymity
Watchdog: Most of these cases protect free speech particularly when only "suspicion" is involved. Most of these subpoenas were not allowed by the judges who heard these matters which hopefully add to your discovery and a favorable verdict against those and anyone else you are suing. Good job.
"Your preacher and staff are gods gift to you" and "when you grumble against your pastor and staff you aren't grumbling against them, but grumbling against the head, the Lord Jesus Christ."
That is downright blasphemous. But they really do believe themselves to be gods.
Of course, they ignore all the warnings in scripture about false teachers, wolves and hirlings. Because it would OUT them.
To judge who is really saved is no ones place but the Lord's. He knows who really is and who isn't. It seems to me that people who continually comment on here have no life. If you really are not involved in this situation directly and really DON'T know all the details, then leave! You can choose a side and have an opinion all you want, but its just ridiculous to act like you know everything when in reality you don't.
I'm sorry, but this kool aid thing is the most ridiculous and childish thing I've ever heard. Get over yourselves! If you don't like the church, then leave!
I'm sorry but this "if you don't like the church, then leave" is ridiculous!
The pastor drug the church into this mess because he would not answer questions from members. He had more than one opportunity to meet with Tom Rich. If you don't believe that go read Tiffany Croft's blog. She tried to get Brunson to meet. Brunson is the one who won't meet, yet his book tells other pastors to meet personally with unhappy members? Why on earth is FBC putting up with such blatant and obvious garbage?
Brunson has embarassed FBC immensely with the comment he made to the newspaper about Tom Rich. Yall want to defend that? Yall want to defend Brunson's telling pastors in his book to do one thing while he does the opposite?
Brunson is now responsible dragging some of the church's members through court all because HE THINKS HE IS ABOVE QUESTION! Now he will have no choice but to answer questions under oath. How much further mess is he going to drag our church into?
Guess what? A lot of us have been there a long time, put a lot of service and money into ministry there. He is the new kid on the block and if anyone needs to go it is him! So roll up your sleeves and get ready because we aren't leaving!! Somebody down there needs to show some backbone, common sense, and commitment to TRUTH! Deacons you need to quit hiding behind each others skirts and trying to keep things from the congregation, you aren't the FBI!
We're not going anywhere! You got about 3000 trespass warnings to serve so you better get Hinson on the phone and get busy. You're gonna have an all nighter!
Anon 9:15 and 9:18
I don't know everything so should I leave? I have an opinion; however I would like to know more before I decide what I need to do. I am praying that God shows me what to do as the church belongs to him and I go to Gods house to worship him and not an individual.
let's stop pastor darrell gilyard together > Plea Deal Has Been made.
Darrell L. Gilyard will face some earthly consequences this time. It is official, a plea agreement has been reached and signed.
The deal is 3 years incarceration and then 3 years probation.
He will be listed as a sexual predator, so this label will follow him.
...
Darrell L. Gilyard, if you are reading this, please know that I am strong because what you meant for evil against me, God meant for good. He has been my rock and my fortress, whom shall I fear? When I lie down and sleep, I will meditate on HIM in the nightwatch - and praise Him for all the good He has done!! To God be the glory!
Victims/survivors, won't you join me in praises to the King of Kings? He alone is worthy to be praised!
Pastor Wade's blog > The Sordid and Strange Darrell Gilyard Story and What It Reveals About the SBC [SEPTEMBER 09, 2008].
Pastor Wade's blog > The Problem of a Predator In the Pulpit in the SBC [MARCH 09, 2008].
Fbc Jax Watchdog > Gilyard's Past: You're Telling Me Nobody Knew???? [DECEMBER 22, 2007].
Fbc Jax Watchdog > Gilyard: Text Messages and "Sexual Encounters"...Here We Go Again? [DECEMBER 24, 2007].
Fbc Jax Watchdog > One Bright Spot in the Gilyard Story [DECEMBER 25, 2007].
Fbc Jax Watchdog > Gilyard's Ugly Past [DECEMBER 27, 2007].
Fbc Jax Watchdog > Examples of the Poor Treatment of Women at the Hands of Jacksonville Churches [DECEMBER 19, 2008].
Stop Baptist Predators > Showing posts for query Darrell Gilyard.
"Do a bit more research on anonymous speech and you might be surprised. And also, don't forget to look at "establishment clause" of the first amendment."
And the Federalists Papers
--Publius
In response to Anon May 16, 9:55,
Good luck to you and God bless you in your 'fight'. I felt that way for a while. Then I had a change of heart. Here's a copy of my resignation letter to FBCJ and why there has to be one:
"I’ve been a member of FBC since 1979. I was convicted this week that I have been committing what I'd like to call treason (a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign). I was taught a long time ago by a missionary writer (Kay Friederichsen) that it is a testimony to the world where your church membership lies. We are accountable to God for the ship we sail on and the flag that is flown by that ship. It shows where our allegiance lies. It shows the world if we are on God's ship or if we are on a pirate ship. I'm convicted that I have been violating my allegiance to God. Not anymore.
Please delete my name from your membership rolls. I will not ‘letter out’ to another Baptist church. You will need to take my name off per this letter of resignation."
I'm sure we've passed in the hallways or maybe even served together somewhere along the way. I really will be rooting for you in your quest to stay and to get Mac out. It's going to be a long battle.
Charles Stanley's message today is "How To Handle Anger" and he ended his sermon talking about Christians filing law suits against a brother and against an institution like the church. His take on it was very interesting.
"The measure of a person is the size of the thing that makes you angry." He went on to say that the Bible doesn't say that anger is a sin. It's our response to anger that could become a sin. It shows in a person's eyes, you can hear it in their voice, they can't hide it. Like Mac calling WD a sociopath and berating his church & TV audience with a big "HAH!".
Intouch.org
6 With what shall I come before the LORD,
And bow myself before the High God?
Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings,
With calves a year old?
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
Ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression,
The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the LORD require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?
The OT is by no means obsolete. From Gen 3 on, it points to our Redeemer. But, it also teaches us the Character and Attributes of God. HE changes NOT.
In the passage above, which I offer as another proof of what God expects from us, I am reminded that He is not impressed with our shiny temples, many programs, large tithes and big choirs.
In verse 8 we are told that God HAS shown us what He requires of us:
To be Just. We must love and strive for justice. this means fairness, trustworthiness and honesty. Not doing harm to others but speaking truth.
To Love Mercy. The word for this is Hesed which is the OT equivelant to Agape Love. It denotes a covenant...a committment to agape.
To walk humbly. Note it is talking about walking humbly WITH God. This means lowly and meek.
Do we find this same teaching in the NT? Yes, of course. But now we have the Holy Spirit, our Counselor, that works through regenerated hearts.
Matt
Pastor Wade's blog > Walking Where SBC Preachers Fail to Tread.
A handful of leaders in our Convention, as detailed here last September, 2008, neglected to fulfill their God-given responsibilities to shut down Gilyard's ministry and provide help to his victims. Alas, a young Southern Baptist woman, a Gilyard victim herself, approached the unenviable task of bringing Gilyard to justice with the zeal of a modern apostle. Tiffany Croft began her blog with the goal of treading where we Southern Baptist pastors and leaders feared to trod. With all the negative press from official channels in the SBC regarding blogs, it would be great to see someone like Tiffany be given credit using a blog to bring about good in our society.
How slow is this mill going to grind? I am anxious for justice. I am expecting the Rapture anyday. Which, of course, would solve ALL problems for the truly saved, and begin the problems for the lost. I wish this church could get back to it's calling PREACH THE WORD and bring the lost to JESUS. There is an old saying,"You don't know what you have had until you lose it." This church has lost it's way.
I just want to know why when i was posting on this forum at the library back when this first hit the newspapers (and I wasn't being complimentary to FBC Jax) somebody came up and had to get the registration number off my computer. (thats not quite all but thats all I'll say)
Anon 2:06- Was this at the church library or a public one?
I've thought for a long time that the church probably wanted to know the ip address of everyone who visited the blog. They were already in investigation mode so why not go for the whole tamale?
You know how trolls would come here and say that only a couple people were making all the comments? I wonder if part of the reason for the deacon's resolution was because the church realized it was not 1 or 2 folks making all the anon comments and they also realized that it would draw too much attention if they issued that many trespass warnings. Yes the resolution was directed toward Tom but since we see there was some cloak and dagger action taking place in secret in the way they went after Tom legally it wouldn't shock me if they did try to get the info on all the blog visitors.
Anyone? If they did obtain that info on visitors would that be grounds for a class action suit? I'm not too familiar with legalities.
Honestly, there are some people at church that really ought to be ashamed of the way they've treated people who have asked questions. I'm not just referrring to the treatment of Tom either.
Healthy relationships need discussion. All of this banter telling people that questions equates to being divisive, attacking the pastor, and being a trouble maker is not healthy. While I would NOT classify FBC as a cult, unquestioned leadership is a characteristic of a cult. Going down this road is not a good sign.
Are they really willing to run off long time members who have put much time, money and service into the fellowship?
Anon 7:32 am. YES to answer your question. And it didn't start with Brunson. I can tell you Vines was just as bad. I think a requirement to be a mega preacher and to be in the SBC is lots and lots of ego.
I really do not see that you have a supreme court case here. I doubt that you really have much of a case at all. Everything that I know that was said of you is proven and truthful. The lawyer that you selected is pretty indicative of where you want this to go. It seems pretty evident that you are looking for some sort of settlement. Your only leverage is the negative publicity angle. If your real intent was to better FBC or the cause of Christianity, you might have chosen a less litiguos path. Afterall, the only reason that JSO got involved was the public safety. Think about it. You did write some pretty awful things and you used data that was entrusted and intended for church uses and you might have knowledge or participated with the pictures. While you might be harmless, there are those that read these posts that might take life too seriously. Some might argue that your actions were somewhat menacing.
"there are those that read these posts that might take life too seriously. Some might argue that your actions were somewhat menacing.
May 19, 2009 9:20 PM"
Anon 9:20pm that works both ways! How do you know that someone loyal to FBCJ or Mac would not attempt to harm Dr.Dog(We've already seen JSO and the SA dragged into this)!The Bible reveals to us that it was the "religious leaders" who planned the death of Jesus and then instigated the people to go along with their insidious plan!It was the Religious leaders who really wanted to silence The Lord because they did'nt like what He was saying!" Sound familiar"!!!
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