"10 percent to the budget of your church in an undesignated fashion, no exceptions."
That is Steve Gaines' definition of what it means to storehouse tithe. He speaks with authority, as one who knows the scripture, and is telling his people exactly what God expects. He clearly explains that all of your 10% must come to the church, not to any other Christian organizations or charities. ALL TO YOUR CHURCH. And you can't give to any other causes until you have first met the 10% tithe to the church.
God wants 10%. And God wants it now. And he wants it undesignated. And God allows no exceptions. None. So says Steve Gaines.
He doesn't have time to explain where in scripture, OT or NT this clear command comes from.
And wants us all to know: there are no exceptions. Period.
Strange, even the IRS who demands 20% or more from us gives us some leeway. If our income is low, or we had excessive medical expenses, or we gave some of our money to worthwhile charities, the IRS does give us some exceptions.
But not the mega church preachers. They want 10 percent. Not to any charity. They want it ALL to their church. No exceptions.
I would love for Bill O'Reilly's body language expert, Tanya Reiman, to analyze Gaines' body language as he says this to his congregation. Notice his slow eye close as he declares "..in an un-designated fashion...", with a slight emphasis on "un" and then the slight pause for effect. Its as though he is saying he will say it ONE MORE time for those of you who don't get it, and he's tired of having to say it. There seems to be a bit of contempt as he says it. Almost a threat.
I almost expected Rodney Dangerfield to come out and declare "Moose, Rocco, help the judge find his checkbook, will ya?" Or I thought Gaines was going to explain the tithe was to be given in unmarked bills, all 10's and 20's, left in a black brief case behind the Waffle House Saturday night.
But you have to hand it to this guy. He believes in the storehouse tithe, and is not afraid to ratchet up the requirements and speak them as gospel. Wow.
Steve says finances are what can define a man or woman as being "right". Says Gaines: "If a man or woman is not right in his finances, he's not right." OK, so I lose my job, debt up to my eyeballs, and my home is being foreclosed, my creditors are beating my door down, and my finances are a wreck. I guess I'm not right. I need to repent. Thanks, pastor.
He declares if you're not at 10%, you're not even close to what God wants. I think, Pastor Gaines, that YOU might not be even close to what God wants in a preacher....perhaps God wants the full 23 1/3%. Or perhaps he wants you to stop throwing percentages around and let the Holy Spirit work on Christians. Maybe he wants 50% of your mammoth salary in order for you to be a generous, sacrificial giver as the New Testament says.
"Moose, Rocco, help Mrs. Jones find her pocketbook." And maybe Mrs. Jones says "Steve, you'll get nothing, and like it!"
85 comments:
"Steve says finances are what can defines a man or woman as being "right". Says Gaines: "If a man or woman is not right in his finances, he's not right."
What if Gaines is the one that caused the man or woman to lose their job at the mega?
It is easy to tell others they are not right because of finances when you are making half a mill a year.
Wonder when is the last time Gaines was making UNDER 6 figures with NO perks?
Would that be on the gross or after taxes?
As my old Grandpa used to say when as a child I told him I wanted this or that....."How does it feel to want".
As my old Grandpa used to say when as a child I told him I wanted this or that....."How does it feel to want".
January 8, 2010 8:00 PM
Maybe you should ask the celebrity pastors who sell the Gospel as merchandise for profit.
Gaines is greedy. One day the members of Bellevue will get a belly full of his illiterate antics and cut him loose. Or, wait, "the Lord will call him to a new field of service."
Except there aren't any SBC churches left he'd probably want to go to.
Except there aren't any SBC churches left he'd probably want to go to.
January 9, 2010 9:12 AM
Right. He got the flagship SBC church thanks to A Rogers. All eyes are watching and he knows it.
He is only one of many who say the same things as the video you posted.
Are people really that stupid that they believe these guys now.
Your mama used to slap you for worse things and make you wash you mouth out with soap when you lied. remember!
These boys need there mouths washed out with soap by their mamas. ALL OF THEM!
"He believes in the storehouse tithe..."
Tom, I think it's more like he wants 'US' to believe in the storehouse tithe. That's his objective because that's his paycheck. I don't think he 'believes' in it so much as I think he 'hopes' in it. Without it, where would he be? Where else would he go to work if the cash flow wasn't coming in?
FFBCI: yes, that is an interesting question: do these guys REALLY believe it, or do they still push it because they are at a church where they think people will respond and fork over their money?
In other words, is it a core conviction they have, or is it a fund-raising technique.
It may very well be the latter.
Steve Gaines mentions BGEA and James Dobson's FoF.
Gaines states that these organizations tell their donors not to send the tithe to them.
I challenge anyone to post a quote from BGEA and Dobson's FoF where they mention a "tithe". Dobson's organization does say on their website that they want you to give to your church, but they don't use the word "tithe". Gaines said they do, but they don't.
And if you go to the BGEA online giving site, you will see that they allow you to designate what ministry your gift goes to. You can select "most urgent need" (meaning undesignated) or you can select from a menu of needs.
I don't get why the guy is so hung up on "designated gifts". If a person feels led to give a gift to a specific ministry, so what? Why can't the guy just let the Holy Spirit lead Christians?
"I don't get why the guy is so hung up on "designated gifts". If a person feels led to give a gift to a specific ministry, so what? Why can't the guy just let the Holy Spirit lead Christians?"
Of course you get it, it's because he won't have control over how he spends that money if there is a 'designated' sign over it. Why in the world would he let the Holy Spirit lead when he is doing such a great job himself. Why, the Holy Spirit might lead elsewhere, which is Steve's (and others') point entirely. Power. Control. Power. Control. Control. Control.
And then again, none of that would work unless the audience, err congregation approves and obeys this fund raising technique in the first place.
FFBC Insider: "Where else would he go if the cash flow wasn't coming in". Speaking of some preachers in general!!!! It's called entitlement!!!!
What would any of these guys do if they had to work a REAL job. How could they possibly exist without fame, the comforts of riches, the blind obedience given them by "kool-aid"drinkers and weak minded followers. What would they do if they couldn't talk/demand money for basically doing nothing. How would they handle poverty or trying to exist on almost nothing. I would like to see how they would handle trying to keep warm during this weather and keep food on the table for a family. Take care of a sick parent, with no one to help. Suppose they had to go out in this weather to do a manuel job. SURVIVAL in difficult circumstances. Oh no they DESERVE so much more. They deserve the best. They deserve your money because they are who they are.
" don't get why the guy is so hung up on "designated gifts". If a person feels led to give a gift to a specific ministry, so what? Why can't the guy just let the Holy Spirit lead Christians?"
Obviously, there are a bunch of 'designated' offerings being given at BBC. And that presents a problem from an accounting point of view with the budget.
Gaines wants to decide where the money goes and he cannot do that when the offering is designated to, say, Lottie Moon or some other line item. It would be interesting to know how much from BBC goes to the TN state association and the local association. Most of these mega's give a very small percentage to the SBC. They claim they are doing their own missions but they sure want a place at the big table.
Seems to me some in his congregation are not being good little lemmings.
You know what? I'm gonna go ahead and stay warm this crazy winter with my heater running high, rather then help these mega-pastors pay their 5 figure monthly house mortgage.
These mega pastors need to suffer in a REAL job like that rest of us. You know - the sheep the beat so they can shamelessly continue their outrageous lifestyles on our backs.
WOW! This is the biggest bull I've ever heard. I thought Mac was bad but this guy is worse! He is so off the mark biblically. Its sad to see. All he cares about is the money.
What Gaines is saying is nothing less than what A. Rogers has stated previously.
"GOD'S TITHE IS TO BE BROUGHT TO GOD'S HOUSE ON GOD'S DAY SO THAT GOD'S WORK WILL BE DONE GOD'S WAY..MEN AND WOMEN TODAY ROB GOD BY WITHHOLDING THEIR TITHES AND OFFERINGS...."
If Gaines is wrong then let's throw some verbal stones at those others, those we like, who said the same thing, interpreted scripture the same way.
Problem is, no one wants to do this to their heroes. Just to the ones they deemed the enemy.
And then they want to be taken seriously.
Anon, I agree with you. The difference is that Gaines has a rap sheet a mile long of abuses from Gardendale to BBC. Roger could get by with it because he wsa a nice guy. But more and more is coming out about his backroom deals in the SBC.
Now the Sell Job at bellevuepastor.org
By Steve Gaines, Ph. D.
How we need a fresh movement from God in 2010! It doesn’t matter how dark the times are, God can send His revival fire to our churches and to our land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 tells us how we can get ready for revival:
“And my people who are called by My name, humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, will forgive their sins and will heal their land.”
We Need to Be Humble. God demands that we walk humbly before Him (Micah 6:8). When pride walks in, God walks out. When we focus on ourselves, we miss Him. We must wait submissively before the Lord with a broken and contrite spirit. Humility always attracts God’s presence.
We Need to Be Hungry. God’s house must become a house of prayer if we are to experience revival. Prayer is not what we do before the “real business;” prayer is our real business! Our priority must not be the latest church growth technique, program, or method. Rather, we must desperately seek Him as our sole focus.
We Need to Be Holy. We must repent of our sins and let the Lord cleanse us. When we confess and forsake our sins, He pours out His grace and compassion (Proverbs 28:13). God places His Spirit in holy vessels.
In a dramatic display of His power, God let the fire fall of Mount Carmel in 1 Kings 18. Those standing near who witnessed those consuming flames fell on their faces and declared, “The Lord, He is God!” Let us be humble, hungry, and holy in 2010, so that when revival fires come, the world will have no doubt that “The Lord, He is God!”
Anon, I agree with you. The difference is that Gaines has a rap sheet a mile long of abuses from Gardendale to BBC. Roger could get by with it because he wsa a nice guy. But more and more is coming out about his backroom deals in the SBC.
January 9, 2010 5:46 PM
My statement remains...
They want to be taken seriously!!!
Who knows, maybe Gaines and Brunson were sent to the posts they have to flesh out the historical ungodly actions of men so revered the way God wants to be. There seems to be some much wonder "how could God have called these men to the churches they have"... Maybe the question should be, What does God want me to learn about Him as a result of Him putting these men at the helm of these churches?
God has the right to put the most ungodly men in His pulpit if He knows it will draw men unto Him. Yet, what is happening, is men can't get their fixation off the men.
How dare anyone question Adrian Rogers or the Lindsay's. My question is, How dare anyone question God instead of seeking Him.
"Who knows, maybe Gaines and Brunson were sent to the posts they have to flesh out the historical ungodly actions of men so revered the way God wants to be. There seems to be some much wonder "how could God have called these men to the churches they have"... Maybe the question should be, What does God want me to learn about Him as a result of Him putting these men at the helm of these churches?"
Why do we always assume God has called these men? The truth is that God calls EVERYONE who believes in Jesus Christ and has the indwelling Holy Spirit to His Service. All true believers are priests (ministers).
What makes anyone think these churches are serving God? Their size? Wealth? The fancy buildings? All the programs and events?
Maybe we have had it all backwards for a long time and we are having a wake up call.
Matt
Maybe we have had it all backwards for a long time and we are having a wake up call
That's what I think. God must be wondering what on earth it would take for people to see through the emperor's new clothes. How bad does it have to get before we see that any sort of hierarchy, especially one that goes "back under the law" with its old priesthood, is the opposite of "neither here nor on this mountain"?
Words of wisdom
# So proud to be Tim Tebow's pastor. He is the real deal. 8:21 PM Jan 1st from Twitterrific
# Our politicians want to be treated like rock stars and all the rock stars pretend to be politicians. Just thankful for Jesus. 8:02 AM Jan 1st from Twitterrific
# The ministry of proclaiming the word never exempts you from obeying the word. 11:36 AM Dec 8th, 2009 from Twitterrific
That's just freaky. It's cult-like, and I cannot fathom that folks would submit themselves to that sort of weirdness.
How does this Gaines fellow look at himself in the mirror? Does he really believe that BS he's preaching? Honestly? What a strange, weird way to go about life.
Johnny D. said...
"That's just freaky."
If you think that's freaky then
what would you call this?
.
Giving
Scriptural giving is one of the doctrines of the faith. II Cor. 8:7
We are commanded to bring our gifts into the storehouse (common treasury of the church) upon the first day of the week. I Cor. 16:2
We are commanded to bring the tithe into the common treasury of the church. Jesus said concerning the tithe "these ye ought to have done". Mat. 23:23.
"Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils" Heb.7:2,4, this was four hundred years before the law.
Lev. 27:30. "The tithe ... is the Lord's".
Mal.3:10. "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
This is and has been my understanding of the "Tithe"
The tithe belongs to the church where you are being fed spiritually. All of this dialogue seems to be coming from those who are dis-satisfied with their church leadership. Find a church where you can be fed and then tithe. Now, If you want to give an offering over and above the tithe, then send the contribution to where you see fit. I have not posted here in more than a year. I have moved on to a place to where I can turn in my tithe with a good conscience. Too many are hanging on because of a SS Class. If you continue to tithe under such conditions, you are enabling the behavior. I do not support the WD's position on tithing.
Interesting but annoying...
A topic is raised. Arguments go back and forth. There is a slight (or sometimes long) pause.
Then a name not seen before in the conversation appears, giving the original arguments as if nothing at all has been said, so the whole thing can start all over again.
Happens on any topic, in any venue. Weird.
New Pastors Blog of Pinecrest Baptist Church , Corinth MS
taking on the fight to defend Mac Brunson, Steve Gaines and tithing
was this the anonymous poster of January 9, 2010 4:45 PM?
Tithing Under Attack (or should it be Pastors Unite)
To tithe, or not to tithe, is that even a question? Apparently for some it is. What has been understood for many years to be a sound Christian principle has come under attack, and the attack seems to me to be getting broader and wider. There are not many blogs, or ministry websites that I follow but there are a few.
Because my wife and I attend the Pastor’s Conference in Jacksonville, Florida every year I became aware of the “fbcjaxwatchdog” controversy that has surrounded Mac Brunson. Because I pastor in Corinth, MS and because Steve Gaines was born here, and has preached at our church I am aware of the issues surrounding his ministry at Bellevue in Memphis.
That being said, regardless of any other issue, both men have become points of contact for critics, and both men have been lamblasted for preaching the doctrine of tithing. (Of which I have never heard a criticism of Adrian Rogers, Jerry Vines, or W.A. Criswell for teaching the same thing.)
And a post by
Jon Estes
January 6, 2010 at 8:22 pm
Thank you for your post. It was timely and to the point. It is obvious that the watchdog is out to get Dr. Brunson using the tithe argument as one of the ways but I am waiting to hear him share the same attitude towards his former pastors. Call them false teachers or at best, unable to comprehend the depths of scripture and unable to know the Lord’s will on this subject.
It won’t come. I guess heroes are allowed to be wrong.
Once again, thanks.
.
"e are commanded to bring our gifts into the storehouse (common treasury of the church) upon the first day of the week. I Cor. 16:2
We are commanded to bring the tithe into the common treasury of the church."
SIGH...once again...that was in reference to an offernig for the persecuted believers in Jerusalem. Paul did not want the offering taken while he was there. Please read in context! PLEASE! Don't believe what your pastor preaches. They have a vested interest in preaching Old Covenant laws for a Theocracy.
And where do we see a position for treasurer of the church since the Levite Priesthood was abolished? Perhaps you think Lydia kept a church piggy bank at her house since the church met there? Or perhaps Chloe of Corinth was the treasurer of that church?
" Find a church where you can be fed and then tithe. "
I cannot 'tithe' because I have no crops. I have no Levite Priest to give it to. And 10% is not the whole tithe. It is getting by with less than God commanded in the Old Covenant. And there is NO temple in the New Covenant with a storehouse. And there is NO Theocracy to support.
Why is that you guys want so badly to be Jewish and follow the law? Wasn't Christ enough for you?
The NT teaches radical giving to your brothers and sisters in need. Not to build fancy buildings and make your "pastor" rich or pay him to do what YOU should be doing...if you are saved, that is.
Thanks for the tip on the MS pastor. Looks like this topic we are discussing is having some impact.
Even Tim G says at SBC Today he is going to be addressing the issue of tithing.
Yes, let's keep this discussion going.
"Then a name not seen before in the conversation appears, giving the original arguments as if nothing at all has been said, so the whole thing can start all over again."
They are parroting what they have been taught. It is always obvious when they have not studied deeply on their own.
And by the way, I have read this MS pastor's comments on tithing, and his view on tithing is not even close to Brunson or Gaines'! He says it is a "principle", not a command or law. This is precisely what I have said...but this is not at all consistent with the words coming from the pulpits of FBCJ and BBC, where the pastors are teaching it as rock solid truth, that 10% is the line between obedience and disobedience.
And kudos to the MS preacher for clearly explaining his position on tithing.
Maybe he would comment on whether he things that 10% is the borderline betweeen obedience and disobedience for all Christians, if it must be undesignated to be obedient, and if there are any exceptions to the 10% rule. And maybe he would comment on whether he thinks our terrible economy is a judgment of God for non-tithing Christians.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1229091954150
Highly recommended if you follow celebrity pastors
January 10, 2010 6:24 AM
- thanks for your opinion. The scriptures you rely on do not apply and are certainly taken out of context. Every one of those verses has been dealt with in these discussions numerous times. Check out the links on this site for more information and read McArthur and the SEBTS professors who explain it better than I can.
Bottom line: tithing of ones income to the local church is not taught in the OT or NT. Period.
So, assuming your pastor knows this too, if he teaches it, and beats the sheep over it, then he is a liar and a wolf in sheep's clothing, which the NT warns us about.
Please, give all you want to your church, but do not do so thinking you are "tithing" in obedience to the Lord. You are being deceived and if your motive is wrong, you might be putting yourself back under the law. Read what the NT says about those believers who taught circumcision.
This is an important topic and you need to research it and seek God on it.
As for Lindsay and Vines and Rogers and others who preached on it, they are no longer pastors of megas who are benefitting personally from the contributions. So it makes no sense to attack them on this. Only Vines should continue to be scrutinized on this as his current comments and position on this will be a huge part of his legacy. Many of these megas will not live to see how tarnished their legacies have become due to their false teaching on this topic. Some preachers get "found out" in their own lifetimes...others after they are dead. Future generations will judge these so called "great heroes" and make examples out of them. Sad indeed.
As for Jesus, and as for Lindsay, when I don't understand something they taught, I must look at how they lived and what the motives were. This helps me understand their teachings.
Jesus did NOT suffer and die so that I might be more involved in serving down at the local church. He did not suffer and die so that I might be obedient in giving to the budget of the local church. Anyone who teaches that is "doing the work of satan." Listen closely, I bet a large majority of sermons in your church have the point of getting you to attend more services, give more to the church, and to give church a greater priority in your life. Am I right?
Thank you.
Jesus did NOT suffer and die so that I might be more involved in serving down at the local church. He did not suffer and die so that I might be obedient in giving to the budget of the local church. Anyone who teaches that is "doing the work of satan." Listen closely, I bet a large majority of sermons in your church have the point of getting you to attend more services, give more to the church, and to give church a greater priority in your life. Am I right?
Thank you.
January 10, 2010 2:54 PM
Friend, You are right. We even have a name for it: Churchianity.
Churchianity has nothing to do with the saints assembling together.
Matt
To Anon January 9, 2010 9:48 PM,
I am not one to agree w/ Gaines often and certainly would not go out of my way to defend him, but I find nothing freaky about his point about Satan on the Internet. He is correct. I am not sure why he set out to look for him and didn't hear the full context of his point; but there was nothing freaky about that. Thank God for the authority of Jesus and our ability to call on Him in the face of evil. And yes the Internet is FULL of evil. Not sure of your point there.
You know, I get the same feeling when I listen to him and others within "the Baptist Mafia" that Gaines got when he googled Satan Pictures...
They all are need the name of Jesus provoked before listening to them!@!
From Gaines talk, he said he googled "satan pictures". This might be the link he clicked on ...
Pictures of Satan and Demons.
From my reading of the bible, Satan will appear to deceive even the elect. So in lot of cases I would be more concerned about wrong teaching and placing of millstones around believers necks. In my view that would be evil, knowingly teaching man made rules as Scripture and saying God will punish you for not following these rules.
I'm not sure what he expected to find...Casper the friendly ghost? If you google "pictures of Satan" you ain't gonna get a pretty picture.
Like I said before, To me it (the Satan Pics as described by Gaines comment about googling Satan Pictures) is no worse than what those in the Baptist Mafia are saying and doing to destroy the name of Christ.
They are probably doing much much worse and doing scarier tactics !
Fat Cats admonishing us for not giving them more of our money. And, they dare to say that we will go to hell if we don't. Confront them with this and they back peddle and say "I didn't say you would go to hell". That is just the unspoken extortion that they rely on.
In 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 the Word of God says that we should not be surprised that false teachers disguise themselves as servants of righteousness because even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
Why would Steve Gaines be googling "pictures of Satan"? Is he telling his congregation that Satan has a frightening appearance? Maybe he should read his Bible, or maybe look in the mirror.
Anonymous, January 10th 8:36 a.m.
No sir, or ma'am. The pastor of Pinecrest Baptist Church in Corinth, MS is not the poster of the comment January 9th, 4:45 p.m.
I am.
Jeff Haney.
"Any OT rule was not lessened, it was increased" - Steve Gaines
Really? So, are we back to not eating Pork again? Even less than in OT times, I suppose, since the rule has been increased.
Should we start stoning homosexuals and those who work on the Sabbath? Perhaps that punishment is not sufficient since the OT rules have been increasd.
I always thought that the book of Hebrews condemned going back to OT practices. Apparently the mistake they made was not going far enough.
They get that "increased" from the statements Jesus made about "you have heard that it was said...", and the general internalization of morality over the external law.
But, somehow, they don't see that rather than intensifying "a burden neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear", Jesus fulfilled (met the obligations of) that law, such that trying to meet it ourselves is an insult to the One who met it for us. It is only by virtue of being "in Christ" that we meet it at all, not by our observance of it. And didn't James say that whoever stumbles at one point has broken the whole thing? No one but Jesus could ever really keep the law.
So it is fallacious for them to say that Jesus somehow made the law more binding and more impossible for any of us to keep. It is not the old law we are to internalize but the new: the law of love.
And have those people never read Hebrews? It tells us plainly that with a change of priesthood there must be a change of law. In Christ we are in a new priesthood and thus a new law, such that the old law can have no bearing on us at all. This is what Jesus was talking about in the illustration of the wineskins.
Anonymous said...
"Any OT rule was not lessened, it was increased" - Steve Gaines
"Really? So, are we back to not eating Pork again?"
Steve Gaines still eats pork (you can see that is not all he likes to eat) unlike his predecessor Adrian Rogers who did give it up.
I nominate the sucker for any one of the 3 SBC executive positions now avilable:
Qualifications----
Jowls
Slick smile
Able to feather own pocket using God's name
Arrogant
Likely travels 1st Class
A proper following would give him enough for a corporate jet
Adrian Roger's successor--says most
Not willing to accept anything less than top dollar + perks
Nice silk tie
Eyes flutter just like Charles Stanley
"10% is for ABC Christians" - Steve Gaines
Why is paying one out of three OT tithes considered ABC?
Why wouldn't the number be 23.3% as stated in Leviticus and Deuteronomy?
I'm reading comments from advocates of storehouse tithing. Can you explain this to me?
I hope dog isn't right and it is because it is easy to remember.
"Giving For Dummies?"
Multiplying by 0.1 is so much easier than 0.23333.
We can be super spiritual and say we are "tithing on the tithe" which means 0.11 instead of 0.1.
My grandaddy, a SC Democrat Farmer, had the most approprite saying for folks like this super righteous Pastor and CR advocate:
"The higher the monkey climbs the tree----the more you see his tail!"
Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If one is looking for a pitchfork and horns, they are are looking in the wrong place. Satan always mixes truth with lies. It is the indwelling Holy Spirit that gives us "pure wisdom from above".
"From my reading of the bible, Satan will appear to deceive even the elect. So in lot of cases I would be more concerned about wrong teaching and placing of millstones around believers necks. In my view that would be evil, knowingly teaching man made rules as Scripture and saying God will punish you for not following these rules.
January 10, 2010 7:13 PM
Thy Peace, you have nailed it. Why would Satan waste his time on what he already owns? One of the tricks of false teachers is to focus on how horrible the world is so we 'saints' can feel better about ourselves. All the while sin is being dumbed down and the worldly systems of authority (Gentiles lord it over them)greed and idolatry (of men and buildings) are brought into the church and taught as biblical.
Matt
"Any OT rule was not lessened, it was increased" - Steve Gaines
"Really? So, are we back to not eating Pork again?"
And no cooking meat in goats milk. Gaines must think he is the Levite Priest but he is a Gentile!
Off Topic:
This Sunday sermon by Pastor Wade Burleson is relevant for this blog readers. It addresses the issues of Spiritual Gifts and dissent for Baptists.
#19. When the Perfect Comes (I Corinthians 13:8-10), of the series Love Never Fails (I Corinthians 13). If you watch the video, it's titled "When the Perfect Comes", 1 Cor 13:8-10, Part 19 of series, Jan 10, 10.
Clarification.
To the anon of January 10th 8:36 a.m. who asked if the pastor of the church in Mississippi was the anonymous poster, the answer is no.
Because I am the pastor of that church in Mississippi, and I did not write that post.
I am Jeff Haney, the "pastor" not that "poster" :)
If we want to be truely scriptual try this paraphrase of Matthew 23:
The Pattersonites and Presslerites control the SBC so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. They make many rules and narrow theologies, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not live personal lives under them.
They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their designer ties bright and their expensive tailored suits sharp, and they love the place of honor at all Pastor’s Conferences. They love being recognized and called “Dr.” by their subservient masses. But you are all the same as Baptists: you have one master, Jesus, and one Father who is God in heaven. Neither be called President or Vice-President, for you have one master, the Christ... But woe to you, dictators to Baptists, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who follow you to go in.
You go on glorious and expensive overseas mission trips to make a single proselyte and then corrupt him. You make all kinds of Resolutions and use Robert’s Rules of Order in any way to get your way. You don’t care what promises you make or public statements as long as you sound politically correct. Your sermons are slick and designed to please men. You neglect the Gospels and the ideas of God’s love and forgiveness, replacing them with legalisms and judgmentalism to make sinful men feel worse.
You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! Woe to you dictator pastors! You are like dishes and cups cleaned only on the outside while the inside is full of rotting food and disease. First cleanse the inside and the outside will clean itself. You take statements out of context from Baptist forefathers and act as if they applaud your mindless theology. You say you would love what the forefathers died for, but you take away the freedoms for which they would give their life. They went to jail and endured punishment so we could live in a land of freedom of religion and conscience. You would have been in the mobs which booed them and threw them in prison. You would have shot them rather than listen to their cries for freedom of individual churches and believers.
Many Baptists are saying we have deserted our heritage of freedom in recent years, but you call them “skunks” and “liberals” to anyone who doesn’t know what being free and Baptist means. The hottest fires of Hell wait for those who do not live in love and allow their brothers in the faith to be free. Anyone who claims to serve a God of love, but cannot love his brother who is different or uses different words, is a liar and a hypocrite destined for God’s harshest judgment.
Hi Jeff - thanks for the clarification, that had me confused. Welcome to the FBCJ watchdog blog. You are welcome to chime in here with your views on tithing as we look at this issue in depth. We have looked at John MacArthur, and of course we have listened to recent comments made about tithing, and the Christian's obligation to give 10% by Gaines and Brunson.
I think that your blog post "Tithing Under Attack" is taking aim at the wrong folks, however.
If your "personal principle" of tithing is under attack, it is under attack by the hard core storehouse tithers who are abusively preaching to their congregations that the Bible teaches there is some sort of magical 10% dividing line between obedience and disobedience, and that there are no exceptions, that all Christians are deemed obedient or disobedient in their finances on whether they meet the 10% threshold. And they preach that their 10% MUST come to their church, no exceptions. You don't believe that, from what I can tell on your blog, so perhaps you have more in common with me than you do with Brunson and Gaines in the matter of tithing.
Also, I am unaware that Wade Burleson has made statements against storehouse tithing, as you stated in your blog post. Can you refer my readers to where Wade Burleson has made comments about tithing that you disagree with?
Isn't preaching to your own church about "tithing" like trying to lecture your wife and children about how they should love you?
If you have to make that speech, isn't there a problem in the relationship that goes deeper than what percentage, gross or net, to your church versus other ministries etc.
I have been at my current church for 17 years (we just turned 17 this week). Thankfully, I have never heard a sermon on this topic.
If our pastor preached such a sermon, it would probably have a reverse effect - less giving because people would lose some enthusiasm for the church or leave altogether.
Louis
Jeff - could you also explain why you believe that Christians should give 10% instead of the 23.3% required of Isreal in the OT?
I'm with you there, Louis. Its the message, and its the delivery and tone and body language of the message.
But if you've never heard a sermon on that topic, I assume he addresses financial stewardship at some point during the year. What does your pastor say about a Christian's stewardship?
The only posts where a passing mention of "tithing" was made by Pastor Wade Burleson were these:
Grace and Truth to You [Pastor Wade Burleson] > The Veil of Moses Hides a Fading Glory [DECEMBER 21, 2009].
Grace and Truth to You [Pastor Wade Burleson] > The New Covenant: Christian Living at It's Finest [JUNE 29, 2009].
There were some comments made by Wade Burleson on his blog comments section in reply to fbc jax commentators about tithing.
If our pastor preached such a sermon, it would probably have a reverse effect - less giving because people would lose some enthusiasm for the church or leave altogether.
Louis
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Louis, I agree. I attend a relatively small church and have heard preaching like this for the past 4 months, every single week. I felt convicted to stop giving entirely to that church. Sad but true.
Grace and Truth to You > The Veil of Moses Hides a Fading Glory.
So it is with religious laws, traditions and rituals. They may have been instituted for benevolent, good reasons. But that which initially comforts God's people winds up hiding the fact that God's glory is gone. The only way to be sensitive to the presence of God is to resist the temptation to build a mechanism (tradition, ritual or law) intended to hide the fact that God is not present. In other words, we Christian leaders ought to do everything in our power to facilitate freedom and liberty among God's people. When people are free--truly free (i.e. the veil or the law is removed)--it's easy to see the evidence of the Spirit's power and presence.
Amen.
Today I was looking through my sermon files for special seasons and, once again, reviewed my Stewardship Sermons.
Never did I have to command the congregation for exactly what to give--and that they would be bound for Hell, should they not do what I said.
Instead, it was a pleasure to share what joy I had personally gained from giving as God led me. I asked our deacons to write a little "tithing testimony" to be included in the newsletter. At other times we shared what ministry was done on their behalf because they gave.
If anything had to be said about the degree of giving, it was in terms of how Christ gave Himself completely for us, now what was he leading us to give from our bounty?
There have been times when a guilt-ridden member came to me to confess why he was unable to do as much as he wanted--usually in hard times. My response was to assure them God understood that when the widow gave her mite, it was much more important than the rich man putting on a good show. God sees our hearts and guides to a lifestyle of joy and peace.
It is, often, more important to give of self than of money. A person who has little money to give is often giving more of time and self than the one giving money, but little else. I would rather see "self-giving" than "money-giving."
Giving or self / giving or time / giving of ministry is all a part of the equation of treating God just as he has treated us. Does anyone really think a God who allows these hard financial times into our lives expects the Preacher and the Facilities of the church on the corner to become more important than caring for one's family?
In good times give much. In lean times, do the best you can as your conscience leads.
Thus endeth the sermon!
Dog:
He does, but in the context of the sermon text. And most of the money passages I can think of in the NT have to do with dedication generally, and money specifically. I don't any of the passages get into any of the specifics of how much to give, to which organizations etc.
Anon:
Sorry about that. Hope the pastor moves on or changes his tune.
Louis
It is odd to me that when we are saved we trust our hearts to Jesus. Then after scriptural baptism which is our first act of obedience,the second should be honoring the Lord with our tithe. The odd part is that we trust our hearts to Jesus but not our pocketbooks. We all know what we have belongs to God. To give 10% is not unreasonable. I can not afford not to tithe.
Under Pastor Lindsay, there were 60% of the members tithing. This was extraordinary for a Baptist church. Most churches are blessed if 20% of the members tithe.
Keith - 10% may very well be unreasonable for someone, because it might be too high.
But 10% might be unreasonable for someone because its too low.
The NT doesn't describe a percentage, but it does say we should be generous, regular, sacrficial givers.
As a younger man with 3 kids in Christian school, a wife who gave up her career to be a stay at home mom, and myself not earning a large salary and trying to recover from a financial disaster, living in a modest home and driving old cars, I was sacrificially giving to my church in giving about 3%, Not to mention that both my wife and I cheerfully gave significant amounts of our time in service through FBCJ. We gave sacrificially of our finances and our time, and we did it out of love for Jesus and we did it cheerfully - just as Homer Lindsay preached.
But according to what is being taught lately, I would not be "anywhere close to where God wants me to be", which is total rubbish. My paltry, disobedient 3% would be considered an unworthy gift. For me, I WAS giving sacrificially, and I was doing what the Lord led me to do in regards to my wife's employment and our kids' school and my financial giving and service to my church. I know for 100% fact that I was honoring the Lord with my giving at 3%. I KNOW IT. It was sacrificial and regular. If I took my kids out of private school and had my wife continue to work so I could give 10% or more, I would have been disobedient.
So this is where this hard core, non-biblical "10% or you are not right with God" nonsense leads us. It is telling a person who sacrifically gives in accordance with the New Testament that they are not right with God. It is shameful and embarrassing that these men, self-appointed priests who presume to speak on God's behalf, hang extra-biblical rules in order to raise revenue. Shameful.
"So this is where this hard core, non-biblical "10% or you are not right with God" nonsense leads us. It is telling a person who sacrifically gives in accordance with the New Testament that they are not right with God. It is shameful and embarrassing that these men, self-appointed priests who presume to speak on God's behalf, hang extra-biblical rules in order to raise revenue. Shameful."
January 12, 2010 12:18 AM
And a hearty "AMEN" Dr.Dog my sentiments exactly!!!
WD,
Our testimonies are very similar. I'm sure my family rarely made the 10% mark in the 30+ years at FBC. We gave a committed amount and tried to keep that promise but failed to do that many times. Like your family, the Mom in our house stayed home to raise her own kids. That was a huge priority for us. Also like you, I gave upwards of 30% or more of my time in service to my church. Much of the 'at home' time between taking care of the children was spent on ministry jobs. It was a huge commitment and always something. But I gave with a very cheerful heart. I loved that job/ministry. I think it was Homer that taught that we were to give of our time, money and personality. That those things were given to us by God and we were to give back to Him. Giving of your personality went way outside of the church and into the community where the lost people are.
I can't imagine that God would want my family to go without enough food or electricity in my house because I stood firm in giving 10% financially to my church. That makes no common sense and I think God has lots of that. The testimonies that bear those kinds of stories are scary to me. It shouldn't be something they or their church are proud of, it should make them shudder. And why have those testimonies about money anyway? That too gives me the creeps. God is so much more than that to me. He is not looking to me to prove something to get his approval or love. Where is the unconditional part if I've got to do something to make Him smile at me? I don't believe that for a minute. Like you said before, MY God is not the God they are talking about.
I've heard many times that 'if you aren't giving 10% then you are 100% disobedient.'
My God is not that God.
Dog:
Your testimony about having 3 kids in Christian schools and only being able to give 3% is a wonderful testimony.
I know many people who live in tough circumstances, and face huge obstacles to being able to give 10%.
Your mentioning that publicly gives people the freedom to feel that they are not the only ones.
That needs to happen more often, in my opinion.
It's a lot more productive (and Scriptural) than brow beating.
Louis
hroidLet me tell you as a small businessman, I have been making 30%of what I did 3 years ago consistently for the last 3 years.
Every small businessman I talk with is in the same boat: 10-40% of what was 3 years ago. That is Eastern NC from Raleigh to the coast!
Even in booming Raleigh there is a significant decline, made worse by these small business competing for the little that is avilable and cutting prices by 30%+/- just to have some work.
This is reality--churches are living in such a fantasy land these days it is not funny. Imagine a multi-million sanctuary which is used mostly on Sunday morning and empty the rest of the week while smaller rooms serve any meeting purposes.
I went into the Sanctuary of FBC Orlando. It is nothing more than a big theater with no windows / controlled lighting & sound / expensive heating or cooling. It is all artificial and designed to provide a theater experience to those attending.
Church was bad enough when expensive stain glass windows kept us from seeing the needs of the world outside. NO WINDOWS is even worse.
What would Jesus do with such a magnificent facility???
I think he ran away from the Temple at Jerusalem in the same way he would avoid it today---nothing more than an expensive idol to man's technological abilities where the money could help the poor and needy who are with us always.
Did he have a resounding PA system booming beside the hill of Gallilee? They didn't even need to hear his voice because the look on his face said it all!
Keith 1/11 11:53: I don't know which "Keith" you are, but if you are the one I am thinking of, you as well as other misinformed tithing zealots, are wrong. As a matter of fact "Keith" if you are the "Keith" I am thinking of, you are wrong about a lot of "church policies"!!!
Just another comment please!!! Those of you who are so arrogant as to say, "If you don't like what your "Church" teaches then find another church to attend. (1) The "church" doesn't teach/preach anything!!! The "church" is the body of born again believers from every where. False doctrines that creep into a specific group of believers that we refer to as our local church, (whereever that may be)is the work of INDIVIDUALS. You or any one else have NO RIGHT to tell anyone to leave and go to another church!!! Many of us were in our respective churches (where we worshipped) for many years. We have much time, service and yes MONEY invested in our "churches". If the leadership preaches error.....then get rid of the leadership, not the people who have built the church. The preacher is not God, he is supposed to preach ABOUT God. GOT IT!!!!!
And also "Keith I woudld question the accuracy of the percentages you used in your 1/11 11:53 comment. Get the "boys" to show you the books again!!!
Best advice I ever got from Dr. John Carlton, my Professor of preaching at SEBTS and personal friend:
Preach about God---and preach about 20 minutes---and most folks will be very happy with you!
The "Tithing" controversy is not new. See the link to a study by John R.Rice,http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/storehouse_tithing.htm
He did not support the teaching of storehouse tithing. This dates back to the late 1970's. His ministry depended on offerings. He did not see anything wrong with giving him your tithe at the expense of your local church.
Like many on this site I lost a good job while trying to care for a wife and a family of five. During that time we struggled just like anyone else. My wife and I covet-ted together to continue to honor the Lord with our tithe. Within two years we had a new job with an income equal to the job we lost. Jerry Ward has said " We give- to get -to give". We are a conduit to keep the blessing of the Lord flowing. Jerry Clower tithed. He said he tithed when he sold fertilizer. He continued to tithe after he was made famous and added he did not believe the Lord would have blessed him to the extent that he did if he had not been faithful to tithe on a much smaller income. The Lord would not have trusted me with another dime.
A church is a called out, local assembly of scripturally baptized believers. We are not one big family. That would be "ecumenism". The SBC has been moving in that direction for years but that is another topic.
This entire discussion comes to the matter of trust. Trust the Lord with your heart but not your pocketbook? Does not make sense. I would encourage everyone to tithe off the gross for 3 months and see if the Lord is true to his word.I Kings 17:9
I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee. 10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman was there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink. 11 And as she was going to fetch it, he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand. 12 And she said, As the LORD thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die. 13 And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go and do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son. 14 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth. 15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days. 16 And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Elijah.
I am well aware this text is in the OT. However the last time I looked the OT is still bible.
Keith--
I sense a little of "if I tithe, God must bless me" in your good comment.
Just wanted you to clarify on that score, please.
When we start arguing about "exactly" what the tithe is, we would argue about whether the sun goes around the earth or vice versus.
The "which body orbits the other" argument was resolved many years ago, by empirical observation.
What are the "empirical observations" relative to the tithe?
"Jerry Clower continued to tithe after he became famous".
Who is Jerry Clower?
Concerning the tithe...the Bible says to put your offering in silently, in other words do not let others know how much or how little you place in the offering plate. I guess the rolls of tithers are unknown!
"I guess the rolls of tithers are unknown!" 2:19 pm.
Don't you believe it. Whether one is called to a position of service within the church is not always left to God and you to decide. It is my opinion after being in church for years and watching different situations transpire that many a called servant within the church has risen or fallen according to how much goes in the "pot". You rarely see "big givers" insulted, ignored or in any way disrespected by preachers and leadership. If in doubt as to which way to treat a "difficult" situation (person), I just betcha someone takes a look at the books. Secretly of course. You can sometimes, just tell. If they are smiling at you, shaking your hand, then you passed the financial and kool-aid drinking test. If not then you may get the cold icy stare. Too bad better luck next year......If you are still called.
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