Les Puryear, pastor of the Lewisville Baptist Church in Lewisville, NC, this week sent a letter to the SEBTS seminary president Danny Akin to suggest that Andreas Kostenberger is not fit to be a professor because of his views on tithing.If Les Puryear were calling the shots today [Les made a run at the SBC presidency a few years back], based on his letter I believe he'd fire Andreas Kostenberger at SEBTS and David Croteau at Liberty lickity-split for their "heretical" views on storehouse tithing.
However, Les ran into the Sheriff.
That is Sheriff Wade Burleson, who hails from Enid, Oklahoma.
Les Puryear, meet Sheriff Wade Burleson.
Wile E. Coyote, meet the Roadrunner.
Elmer Fudd, meet Bugs Bunny.
Seriously, though, this is how it is these days in the SBC. If you don't hold to the teachings of non-essential doctrines of the conservative resurgence bunch, they will come after you. Or if you criticize or challenge mega church pastors, you're on their list.
They'll try to shut you down.
Yes, shut 'em down.
As we see now with Les, they'll even go after your job and livelihood. Some will stoop so low as to go behind your back to get you fired, and they have no problem in harming your spouse and children to make you pay for your "sin".
But thank goodness there is a sheriff in town who sniffs this sort of nonsense out and comes to the rescue.
His name is Wade Burleson, pastor of Emmanuel Baptist Church, in Enid, Oklahoma.
Someone, somehow, found out about Les' email to SEBTS and Liberty University, and sent parts of it to Wade. And Wade has exposed this on his blog, and has Les backpeddling. Read Les' damage control post here.
And Sheriff Wade won't stand for these shenanigans in the SBC. He's seen it in so many instances, and has personal experience himself, and he has decided to expose it at every opportunity. And as Wade has said over at the BaptistLife forums, he has contacts at every SBC institution who will let him know when another Wile E. Coyote attempts to employ the latest Acme product.
Thanks, Wade, for standing up to these guys, and not being afraid to take the shots.
And Les: you might want to send the rest of your Acme products back to the manufacturer.
The Road Runner has seen them all used before, and knows just want to do.
And if he catches you, you're through.
Beep Beep!
98 comments:
Les has tried to divert attention from his actions by complaining about his "private" email becoming public.
An important question that I haven't seen discussed anywhere is, "Why should email correspondence sent to or from SBC employees in their professional capacity be considered private in the first place?"
Almost all emails sent to or from any government official are subject to public disclosure. The logic is that since the taxpayers are footing the bill for the government, they should have a right to know what government employees are doing.
Shouldn't the same logic apply in the SBC? Any Southern Baptist should have the right to see any email that any SBC employee sends or receives in his or her capacity as an SBC employee. If we're footing the bill, we should be able to know what's going on. None of this stuff should be considered private in the first place.
The teaching of the professors on the abolishment of storehouse ithing of the professors was public. Les call to raise the alarm and do something convention wide about this problem was public.
Only his shenigans in attempting to get the professors fired, which he lied about after being caught, was secret.
Kudos to Mr. Burleson for his actions.
No email pertaining to cooperative Southern Baptist mission work should be secret. We should be even more transparent than the federal government.
Let's be clear: Croteau does NOT teach anything about "tithing" at Liberty. My sources tell me that Croteau is a NT professor and his subject matter never, ever addresses tithing. So Les' is barking up the wrong tree going after Croteau.
Also, I've read other articles from Kostenbeger AFTER his two articles with Croteau were published, and I am not sure sure that he and Les are worlds apart on the doctrine to begin with. Les might have found that out if had spoken to Kostenberger.
I remember reading a comment from "Les is More" on this blog several days ago where he was outraged because someone had dared to misspell his name. The comment was removed.
Seems to me that he has done a better job of tarnishing his surname than anyone else.
Stabbing someone in the back by trying to get them fired secretely over a secondary issue in this economy is as low as it gets.
WWJD?
Shouldn't he have filed that complaint AFTER he was able to answer the question of when the tithe was changed from 23.3% in the OT to 10% in the NT - and not before? He was asked many times.
And did you notice that he is not allowing comments on his backpeddling/spin story?
Great guy.
The answer to this from pastors and SBC leadership will be more resolutions that blogging is sinful...except of course, for them and they don't take comments when they are caught.
"Les has tried to divert attention from his actions by complaining about his "private" email becoming public.
An important question that I haven't seen discussed anywhere is, "Why should email correspondence sent to or from SBC employees in their professional capacity be considered private in the first place?"
Very astute. The name of the game in SBC leadership cirlces has been secrecy and backroom deals. And some of the best loved names have been involved to a degree that would shock their followers.
The Bible states that;
"You will know them by their fruit"
Les fruit is surely not looking or smelling good!!!
That's about as dastardly a deed as one can commit in attempting to get a man fired over a secondary issue such as tithing!
If this guy gets upset over something like this,they had better not do something serious in that congregation,because he might cry for their cruxifiction!!!
BTW::I CALL NO MAN REVEREND!!!
Only the Triune God is Revered!!
Their ministers(servants,slaves)!!!
BTW::Les is 10% or 23%?
You are no else has attempted to answer that question!!!
Dog:
When I think of Wade in Sheriff's capacity, this is what comes to mind:
http://images.halloweencostumes.org/adult-woody-costume.jpg
chadwick
Don't worry about chadwick. He just wants to be able to play with the big boys.
Chadwick:
So you publicly support Les. P on this attempt to fire two professors? Sure sounds like it to me.
Tom:
All I am saying is this: Danny Akin is a big boy! He doesn't need Sheriff Wade's help!
"Stabbing someone in the back by trying to get them fired secretely over a secondary issue in this economy is as low as it gets."
I'm sorry to make note of the fact that this very thing has been going on for some time by some of the big wigs. I know of two professors, excellent Christians of godly stature, who were forced out of their jobs by just this type of shenanigans. And likely there have been more.
And thank you Joe, for again showing us more of what we can expect from guys like you and Les. More personal attacks, more name calling, and you no doubt think you are called by God Almighty to issue such ugly statements.
You calling Wade Burleson a pile of dog s**t shows you for who you really are. I would like to call you the same, but I'll restrain myself, for the embarassment you have just caused yourself is enough and I won't pile on.
You are a disgrace, Joe Blackmon, and I'm embarrassed for you. Thank for your post for the world to see.
Notice who has showed now--Joe B.
His comment are always so loving towards Wade B. Not!
Joe B:
Do you support the efforts of Les to get these two professors fired?
Chadwick: I noticed you did not answer my question. I'll take that as a yes.
Chronological sequence of events that led to this post:
FEBRUARY 1, 2010 - FBC Jax Watchdog > Gaines: Non-Tithers Driving Stolen Cars, Living in Stolen Homes.
FEBRUARY 1, 2010 - New BBC Open Forum > The Demand to "Tithe" vs. Willful, Cheerful Giving -- Are We Still Under the Law or Not? (Post of Posts on Tithing).
FEBRUARY 1, 2010 - Les Puryear's comment on FBC Jax Watchdog's blog.
FEBRUARY 1, 2010 - Les Puryear's comment on New BBC Open Forum's blog.
February 2, 2010 - Joining God in His Work [Les Puryear] > Dangerously Close to Antinomianism?.
FEBRUARY 02, 2010 - Grace and Truth to You [Wade Burleson] > The New Covenant Emphasizes Being Led by the Spirit: The Old Covenant Emphasizes the Law.
FEBRUARY 4, 2010 - FBC Jax Watchdog > A Clear Difference in Doctrine.
FEBRUARY 05, 2010 - Grace and Truth to You [Wade Burleson] > Free From the Law Oh Blessed Condition! The Reasons You Should Welcome the Charge of Antinomianism.
FEBRUARY 10, 2010 - Grace and Truth to You [Wade Burleson] > Christian Liberal Ideology and Christian Fundamentalist Ideology Are Brothers from the Same Mother.
FEBRUARY 10, 2010 - Baptist Life Forums > SBC News and Trends > Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?.
February 11, 2010 - Joining God in His Work [Les Puryear] > A Statement From Dr. Danny Akin Regarding the Unauthorized Release to Wade Burleson of My Private Email.
February 11, 2010 - Baptist Life Forums > SBC News and Trends > Will Les Puryear explain his attempt to get profs fired?.
February 12, 2010 - Joining God in His Work [Les Puryear] > A Statement on My Email to SEBTS and Liberty University.
FEBRUARY 12, 2010 - Grace and Truth to You [Wade Burleson] > Preventing the SBC from Becoming the One View Baptist Convention.
FEBRUARY 12, 2010 - Baptist Life Forums > SBC News and Trends > OK, Les is both good guy and victim in all this? [eyeroll].
FEBRUARY 12, 2010 - Grace and Truth to You [Wade Burleson] > Mission Accomplished.
FEBRUARY 12, 2010 - FBC Jax Watchdog > Les Puryear Meets Sheriff Wade Burleson.
FBC Jax Watchdog:
It is for sure that Joe B. is a disgrace and so is Les and sadly there are too many just like them.
Joe - I've been accused of quite a bit...but I can at least say I've never called anyone on my blog "pile of shit", and I've never made any phone calls to get anyone fired.
You and Les are quite a pair.
"ll I am saying is this: Danny Akin is a big boy! He doesn't need Sheriff Wade's help!"
And you missed the WHOLE point. It has little to do with Akin. He is one of the big shots and had Mohler or some other SBC idol approached him secretly, Kostenberger would most likely be gone. (Except that Mohler likes him and publishes his comp stuff on CBMW)
The point is the institutionalized deception and backhanded way of dealing with a disagreement in the SBC. Les has this from 30 years of watching the big boys. His mistake was making his intentions known on the internet beforehand and on several blogs.
He forgot that his leaders do their dirty deeds in secret.
I do not expect you to understand. I expect you to agree with the tactics. It is how you get to stay in the club.
This vindicates the WD on two counts:
1) He NEVER tried to stab anyone at FBC Jax in the back and get them fired like SBC conservative pastor Les Puryear. Blogging openly about concerns is far better then trying to go to someone's supervisor and get them fired from their livelihood.
2) He was correct in needing to remain anonymous out of fear for his own livelihood and reputation in the community. This action by Les Puryear, against a distinguished professor at one of seminaries, makes one wonder what Les might do to a nobody layman like Tom. Heck, he might even sic the sheriff's office on him to trump up charges so he can find out who is. Call him a sociopath, trespass his wife while the daughter sings, and aggressively confront him via the deacons and trustees.
Yes, this shows Tom is not the coward and sinner in the SBC. It is the pastor's like Les and Mac, who just cannot deal with anyone thinking differently from them. Who have to go after anyone, professor or laymen, that dares differ with them. Whether it be in a peer reviewed thesis paper, or on a simple blog...thse guys just can't allow it.
Is this where the Conservative Resurgence has led us?
I'm sorry to make note of the fact that this very thing has been going on for some time by some of the big wigs. I know of two professors, excellent Christians of godly stature, who were forced out of their jobs by just this type of shenanigans. And likely there have been more.
February 12, 2010 4:56 PM
It is the Nicolatians. We were warned about them.
Tom:
Your comments to me are evidence that it is impossible to reason with someone drinking Sheriff Wade's Kool-Aid!
-chadwick
If for no other reason, I'm glad WD started this blog just so the entire world can see what kinds of ugly things are perpetrated by so-called pastors in the name of Christ.
The other great benefit is to read the incredibly offensive and mean-spirited personal attacks by those who support them like Joe.
These actions are so far from the love of Christ that you can't see them with a telescope.
It's a new world guys.
The Internet makes everything public.
You can't get away with your back-stabbing and back-room deals in seclusion any longer.
The fact that anyone thinks his email is private shows just how out of touch they are.
You would expect that being exposed like this in public would teach someone a lesson.
But I seriously doubt it in this case. These two seem to be experts in ignoring the truth.
Les could turn this into another income stream like the mega pastors do. Mac and Steve might invite him to preach on storehouse tithing at their churches and perhaps as a conference speaker to other pastors.
Isn't that usually how this stuff turns out?
Hey Joe,
Why don't you go over to Les' blog and leave an ugly comment on this topic?
Oh, that's right.
It's because he isn't allowing anyone to comment on this issue.
I wonder why?
"Your comments to me are evidence that it is impossible to reason with someone drinking Sheriff Wade's Kool-Aid!"
Nice try. But you obviously are not reading there. Lots of us disagree with Wade. The problem you have is he does not moderate like you all do. He allows dissent and that makes you angry. Allowing dissent is NOT drinking koolaid.
It is a true exchange. Something that rarely happens in the SBC now that we have a professional Christian class of clergy and have done away with the Priesthood of believer. It is just lip service. Now we have great men of God who lord it over.
He even allows folks to insult him. If you have been reading there at all over the past year, you would know I disagreed with on doctrinal stances.
Amazing. An SBC pastor who allows folks to question him and dissent
publicly. It is a rarity. Most are too puffed up to allow that.
And this from someone who disagree with him quite a bit.
Chadwick:
Thanks for the compliment. You did mean it as a compliment didn't you. Name-calling is so you know non-christian. For the third time ,Chadwick do you support Les's actions to fire two professors.
This thing is taking on a life of its own - one that has the half-life of Uranium!
Les' motives - be my guess.
He says one thing. Others say another.
Would be interesting to see what Dr. Akin would say Les told him. My guess, however, is that Akin isn't interested in the least in getting involved in this.
Was anybody going to get fired over this?
Haven't seen any evidence of this. If there is some out there, I'd like to see it. (It could exist, folks. Just haven't seen it).
I wonder how much mail theological school administrators get over stuff like this. Must be enough to fil the Library of Congress.
I doubt Danny Akin was going to fire anyone over Puryear's letter.
Is Puryear angry and embarrassed? Yes. But I don't know what he'll take away from this episode. It may not be the "lesson" many are assuming.
I am opposed to the use of private correspondence that is addressed to others that has not been released by the recipient.
Before I could use something like this, the recipient would have to give me permission or tell me that he released it, or the document would have to be public in nature.
So, there's something for everyone here.
Louis
Do you really think that turning these disputes into WW3 is helpful to your christian life, those who read you, or those whom you directly affect?
Surely Ephesians 4:Ephesians 4
29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.... 31 All bitterness, anger and wrath, insult and slander must be removed from you, along with all wickedness.
32 And be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving one another, just as God also forgave you in Christ.
Romans 15: 2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
It was said by anon:"Hey Joe,
Why don't you go over to Les' blog and leave an ugly comment on this topic?
Oh, that's right.
It's because he isn't allowing anyone to comment on this issue.
I wonder why?"
Joe can make ugly comments at Les' place and Les does nothing about it. But if Les does not like your comment he gets nasty.
This tells me a whole lot about Les.
There is a lot more wrong with Southeastern Baptist Theological Middle-School (oops, I meant Seminary) than whether or not professors are teaching storehouse tithing. Class of 1969.
Louis;
Are you supporting what Les attempted to do?
Chadwick should be waterboarded until he answers Tom's question.
JLE is questioning Pastor Wade on FBC Jax Watchdog here.
There is a lot more wrong with Southeastern Baptist Theological Middle-School (oops, I meant Seminary) than whether or not professors are teaching storehouse tithing. Class of 1969.
February 12, 2010 5:56 PM
Amen.
"Les' motives - be my guess."
What on earth do motives have to do with anything? We don't need motives. Les has been all over harping on this and calling folks lawless. He even said he was going to do something about it instead of just talk.
Of course Kostenberger was not going to get fired. Les is not high profile enough to have that kind of power.
Anyone who assumes e-mail is private is silly.
So, the question remains while everyone is so worried about a 'leak', how in the world did anyone but the big bosses know about the email?
Who is checking their e-mail? Think about it...most execs have assistants who check their e-mail...esp if it is an account that is publisized. It was not real smart to think it was private to begin with.
My guess is that Les got the email off the SEBTS website. In that case there are probably more than a few folks who have access to it.
Tom:
I am going on record:
Concerning Puryear's opinions:
I can neither confirm nor deny them.
What I do know is Puryear has the right, as a Southern Baptist, to express his views, whether right or wrong, to any SBC seminary president that he desires.
Example: Sorta like Sheriff Wade had the right to make a motion at last year's SBC (I think?) to have the Honorable Judge, Bart Barber, thrown under the bus by having him replaced from SWBTS's BoT's.
Tom, I beseech thee, Wilt thou go on record and sayeth that thou endorseth Sheriff Wade's actions regarding him posting excerpts of a third-party 'private'email' on his blog?
Blah, blah, blah . . .
-chadwick
Well Tom, Your storehouse tithing blog posts have created a firestorm, I see.
And I see the "pastors" and pragmatists are out in full force to somehow...anyway...umm...make this about e-mail privacy. (I never assume under any circumstances consider my e-mails are private in business or personal. A good rule of thumb to follow is this: Would I want it printed in the paper? I agree with the commenter who said that Akin probably has several people who track his e-mail for him)
I fear our resident pragmatist, Louis, may be right. I doubt very seriously if our anti-antonimian friend came away with the right lesson. He had to learn the hard way that if one wants to really stick it to a guy who dares teach a different doctrine on giving for the NC, he had best work behind the scenes to build a high profile constituency and then make his move. Never give your hand away early when you want to remove someone. Build a case even if it is distorted. That is what smart wolves do.
Les built his case AFTER the fact. Not that it would have worked. But, all of a sudden this Kostenberger professor became a man who does not believe in the authority of scripture. All because he does not believe the tithe carries over into the New Covenant. I guess that means that those of us who think the New Covenant calls for us to sell our possesions to help a brother rather than pay for new carpet do not believe in the authority of scripture.
If the Christian blogosphere does anything good, it is the fact that it has shown folks what is really going on in the minds of many pastors. And they are finding out real fast, it is not spiritual.
Doesn't exactly make their case for a 'tithe', does it?
Matt
One more thing, knowing how things usually work, it would not surprise me a bit if the powers that be at Liberty and SEBTS, once alerted to that e-mail, did not forward it to the accursed parties. And who knows from there....
Matt
Joe Blackmon said...
First of all, anyone with an ounce of sense (which obviously excludes the dawg and most of his reaadership) could read the email Les wrote and see he was NOT trying to get anybody fired.
Well, you are among the "dawg's" readership.
Errr... what exactly then was Les trying to do when he asked Akin, "Do you agree with Dr. Kostenberger's position of tithing? If not, do you think it is helpful to the SBC to keep this professor on the faculty of SEBTS?"
Was that some kind of trick question? If Akin replied yes, would Les have called for his head on a platter, too? If Akin replied no, would Les have more strongly "encouraged" him to not keep this professor on the faculty of SEBTS? The way I see it, Les put Akin in a no-win position.
Les says, "After much discussion back and forth, Dr. Akin ably defended Dr. Kostenberger and denied that his professor did not believe in biblical authority. I then submitted to his position because he knows Dr. Kostenberger and I do not."
This is interesting. Les accuses Wade of jumping to conclusions about his motives (which I thought from his own words were crystal clear), but he felt free to jump to conclusions about Dr. Kostenberger's views on "biblical authority" or in other words, Dr. K's motives.
My guess (yes, I'm jumping to a logical conclusion) is that Les "submitted" to Akins' position because he had little choice. He could continue to stir excrement, or he could drop it and backpedal.
Second of all, only a pile of human excrament with the integrity of belly button lint would take fragments of a private email and make them public.
Joe, you're such a gifted wordsmith! Except you misspelled "excrement." Perhaps you should stick with the simpler, four-letter form in the future.
Oh, and regarding all the fuss about making "private" things public, I bet Bill Clinton said the very same thing about Monica Lewinsky and a certain blue dress! How dare she! That was private!
Of course, it takes one with a yellow strip running down their back to praise another of the same stripe.
No, no, no! Not a strip. Or even a stripe. A hat! Wade has a yellow hat! (I sure hope this saga doesn't go to his head though. His hat wouldn't fit anymore.)
I think you've clearly illustrated your true colors this evening, Joe. Or did I wrongly assume you were calling a fellow Christian and pastor a "pile of human excrement"? Whatever happened to "touch not mine anointed"?
Chadwick:
Do you preach "storehouse tithing" and/or do you actually practice it.
If you do do you tithe on the gross or the net?
Tom:
You already asked me that question on Bart Barber's blog.
I posted a response there which you can read.
I asked you a question there, too.
I haven't seen if you have responded, but I'll go check.
Louis
Louis:
I read your lawyerly response about Les and could not really tell if your supported Les or not that is why I ask you a yes or no answer.
But you said to me:"Or do you think that Christians in general, and Pastors, specfically, should traffic in the leaked or stolen correspondence of other people?"
My answer, please do not insult me with such a ridiculous question.
Tom:
I answered your question at some length.
I see that you do not like my answer because it's too nuanced or "lawyerly" (your description).
At least I did not avoid your question by declaring it "ridiculous."
That's pretty weak.
If you want to rethink your response (which you don't have to do), you can post it later. I am going to run the marathon in Austin, TX now, but I'll look forward to any updates.
Take care.
Louis
" read your lawyerly response about Les and could not really tell if your supported Les or not that is why I ask you a yes or no answer."
So, you are starting to see how Louis operates? He speaks as if he is neutral on a matter seeing both sides with his worldly lawyerly wisdom. But then he drops a subtle hint trying to sway folks with his worldly pragmatism.
It was not a surprise to many of us that that 'Marshall' Louis knows Marilio and is a 'pal' of his down in Nashville. Funny how he never bothered to mention this that all the time he was commenting here making subtle jabs at Tom over the Mac situation.
Kind of made him seem even less neutral but very snarky. Sort of like the rest of the SBC leadership.
Louis:
You said "At least I did not avoid your question by declaring it "ridiculous."
I've yet to hear you say yes or no to mine. My question to you was not ridiculous but yours is.
You can read Louis lawyerly advice on Bart Barber's blog here.
We all know FBI, NSA and Dept. of Homeland Security routinely, scans ALL internet traffic courtesy of major ISP voluntarily offering their data streams to the Govt.
And we have to read snippets of advice from Govt. that routinely reads all internet data for the greater good of catching terrorists. So they say.
Wiki > E-mail privacy.
EFF > NSA Spying.
Les P:
Says on his blog:"Thanks to all who have taken time to email me about my post yesterday. The response has been overwhelming. The emails are running about 50 to 1 in favor of support and encouragment. Thank you."
Les, why should we believe you unless you reveal all of these emails in support and it only shows the class that people have to not email you and complain to you, because you have that little anger problem that most people do not want to be the beneficiaries of including me:
Remember when you said to me:"Tom,
I am deleting your cruel and insensitive comment to John Buffington.
It is clear that talking with you is a waste of time. You have demonstrated that you have no desire to have a sincere, serious discussion about this issue.
It's also obvious that you don't know John Buffington. He is a church planter in Pennsylvania, who at the age of 66 graduated from seminary and went to plant churches. I would take 1 John Buffington over 100 Tom Parkers.
You are not worthy to carry his shoelace. John is a dear, sweet, godly man who is following Christ in a way than most people will never understand.
Either you publicly apologize to John Buffington for your smart-aleck comment or you will no longer be welcome here.
John,
I apologize that you have been treated so shamefully here on my blog. I will not stand for it and I hope you will continue to come and participate here.
Les"
and then we have the following
"John said...
Les –
I may have to apologize for the confusion. I am not John Buffington, but I am the John that asked Tom Parker the question about the Tiller murder, so his diatribe was likely leveled at me. In some way I’ll have to agree with Mr. Byroniac – perhaps his comment should have been left up. If nothing else it would be a prime example of how being led by the Spirit works itself out in his worldview…
Les P. never followed up about his mistake here.
This is how Les P. can act when he is just a little bit angry, I can only imagine how he acts when he thinks one is against Biblical Authority, but wait that is what all of this mess Les started is about.
Les, you started this firestorm and it will forever taint you. We know who the real Les is now.
Louis,
I generally agree with your views about the ethics of publicly disclosing private correspondence. I just don't think the issue of "private correspondence" even applies in this case.
Why do you think Les' email ever should have been considered "private" in the first place? Why shouldn't communications to and from SBC employees in their professional roles be subject to disclosure to any Southern Baptist the same way that communications to and from government employees in their professional roles are subject to disclosure to any taxpayer?
The real sheriff is the INTERNET! Without it, I would not even know who Wade Burleson is.
I encourage more laymen to get blogging about concerns in their church. Les isn't the only one that can email supervisors. Let's make public our concerns and then hope some church members will start emailing. But be sure to put your name on it. According to FBC Jax pastor Mac Brunson and former pastor Jerry Vines, they spit at and throw them away unless your name is on it. Must be a "God's will" that all names be on emails. Amen? :)
I encourage more laymen to get blogging about concerns in their church. Les isn't the only one that can email supervisors. Let's make public our concerns and then hope some church members will start emailing. But be sure to put your name on it. According to FBC Jax pastor Mac Brunson and former pastor Jerry Vines, they spit at and throw them away unless your name is on it. Must be a "God's will" that all names be on emails. Amen? :)
February 13, 2010 2:06 PM
Don't believe that for a moment. They do not deal with every anonymous letter but they know their content. It is way they can conduct future damage control and head off possible embarassment. If they get enough anonymous letters on a specific topic (even 2 or 3) they quietly deal with it. But they will boom from the pulpit they do not even read anonymous commmunication.
I can even give you proof of they do this: Tom's anonymous blog was subpeoned to find out who he is. They did not do this because they were not reading it. And they certainly did not intend for that to be public knowledge. They destroyed the official files, remember?
You better bet they pay attention to anonymous communication. I just wish they would stop lying about it to the pew sitters. But almost all mega church pastors lie about this. They worry about all negative communication whether it is media, blogs or just letters. They have to..the entire house of cards is built on image an ignorant pew sitters.
In fact, it would have been much wiser in the long run for them to ignore Tom's blog. They basically gave him free advertising and increased his national readership with the way they handled it.
That is pretty much how I found this blog.
Matt
Article on the Dog in the University of Florida Law Magazine:
Here
Without addressing "sides" of this particular issue, what no one is talking about is what Pastors and Leaders are to do, when what someone is teaching or preaching is in fact NOT TRUE.
It appears that what some are wanting to do, is label EVERY Doctrine, every Bible truth, a mere matter of personal interpretation, or an uncertain point of view.
While there are things that we have imperfect knowledge on, there is more "settled truth" than what most want to admit. Because admitting so would demand conformity.
Not everything that we preach as Conservative Bible Believing Baptists is a matter of personal views, but is in fact matters of "truth."
Now whether an issue is "tertiary" or not, there is a "settled truth" about it. As a preacher of the gospel, we have a responsibility to reject what we know to be NOT TRUE. Fiction, "tertiary or primary" has no place in a pulpit, or school, masquerading as possible truth.
Most people just do not want there to be settled truth in anything so they can continue to debate and discuss.
We do not agree on everything, and most likely this side of glory never will. However the area of settled truth is not as small as many want it to be.
Without speaking to the specific issue here, if as a Pastor in the associated work that I am in, if I know that one of our professors is teaching something that is in fact "Not True", I too would ask for him to be relieved of his duties. Not arrogantly, not with hostility, but with grave understanding and a spirit of gentleness, but firmness.
Truth is narrow.
2+2 is not 4.5
Water is not H3O
A square does not have 11 sides.
Jesus did not die just for the saved.
Truth is narrow.
Too many people want all preaching to be matters of opinion. The reality is that, that is not always the case.
We do not have to be arrogant, but we do have to be diligent and firm.
Nice comment CWM. Not at all helpful,but nice.It might be a lot more helpful if you could tell us what the "settled truth" is about tithing.I'm sure we'd all like to hear.
You all may want to check out CMW's blog before you even read his comment. Wonder if he likes grape or tropical punch?
That "settled truth" brings us how many protestant denominations?
"2+2 is not 4.5
Water is not H3O
A square does not have 11 sides.
Jesus did not die just for the saved."
And 10% does not add up to the 23% OT law on tithing.
CWM said...
Jesus did not die just for the saved.
If he died for the sins of those who end up eternally lost in hell, just what are they in hell for? Were their sins paid for or not?
Of course, whatever the Bible actually teaches is in fact "settled truth". You are free to believe that the Bible teaches a particular view, but it would be wise for you not to equate what you believe the Bible teaches with the "settled truth" that it actually teaches. Humility would dictate that we acknowledge that our understanding is limited and could be flawed, especially when dealing with disputed matters that do not relate directly to our salvation. The issue isn't so much what is settled truth as it is whether what we believe to be true actually is true.
Joe, we're a bit off point here, but Southeastern was never "taken back" by conservatives. From the time it was founded in the 1950's, Southeastern was a laboratory of theological inquiry where questions were encouraged, God was glorified and Christ was preached. Oh yeah, it was a real bastion of liberalism. It was "taken over" by fundamentalists, following a campaign if lies, half-truths and deception and transformed into an institution more befitting a Bible college. Fundamentalists, pretending to be conservatives, took control of SBC institutions, not because liberal theology was running wild (you couldn't find one liberal in a thousand seminary students or professors in the before 1987). They gained control in order to exercise the level of raw political and ecclesiastical power we experience at the hands of SBC leadership and mega-church pastors today. Fundamentalists took over the SBC and Satan has been smiling ever sense. You know why, because you guys continue to fight, and continue to destroy a once-great expression of the body of Christ.
Anon 8:00 p.m.
Lime Green is my favorite. :)
Brother Junkster (or sister?)
without sarcasm or hostility - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2
My point is simple. - Not all preaching and teaching is a matter of merely what is "believed" to be true, but what is in fact true.
When anyone demands that all preaching is a matter of opinion or interpretation, the power of the truth is neutered.
It's not a sin to be certain and settled, nor is it arrogant. Certainty AND Humility are always to go hand in hand.
CMW, read your blog post on the FBCJax Pastors conference you attended. Maurilio thanks you for helping to keep his church marketing business going. We all know how much the Holy Spirit needs marketing.
You are just another wannabe.
Grace and Truth to You [Wade Burleson] > A Decision Based on Conviction Enables One To Embrace Any Disgrace
Joe - you preaching today?
I hope not...after this week calling Wade human feces, and calling this guy an "idiot"....seems like you need to get in the Word a little more and ask God to control your tongue, brother.
You seem like one angry dude.
You know the Spanish Inquisition, was much, much milder than Joe Blackmon's comments.
"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!".
Of course here is the real Spanish Inquisition.
Joe 8:27am.
I believe it was Jesus talking to the two disciples on the road to Emaeus who quoted old testament references to HIMSELF. How can anyone overlook this FACT!!!
I believe all pastors should take a Lie Detector Test. The questions would be.
1. Do you believe in storehouse tithing?
2. Are NT believers under OT Law?
3. Do you own a plane?
4. Do you own the church building?
5. Is your wife or family on staff?
If they answer any of these questions with a yes, then fire them as they are in the ministry most likely, for profit and profit only. If they answer no to all the questions then hire them.
Just my opinion.
PS. There are some very Godly pastors "out there", that are LEGITIMATELY trying to serve the Lord and get people Saved. Most of them are in small churches, with small budgets and NO PLANES.
Just a thought from your typical, unimportant Southern Baptist youth pastor: dealing with sinners in an ungracious manner was discouraged by Jesus (cf. Matthew 7:1-6). Les Puryear appeared to be guilty of dishonesty, but let's not crucify him. Let's encourage him, love him, and still stand upon our scriptural interpretations in unity. If we don't, then we will be guilty of what Wade Burleson is accusing Les of doing.
Ed Goodman said...
"...let's not crucify him. Let's encourage him ..."
JUMP
Joe, THANK YOU! Your words more than prove my point. I pray God will heal the ugly scar on your soul. I certainly do not consider you an "idiot." You see, we were taught to "love one another even as Christ loved us..." back when all those "liberals" were in our seminaries and in positions of SBC leadership. Now you and your colleagues name-call and question the Christian commitment of any who take exception to your unfounded accusations, or dare to offer a perspective you do not like. Again, you prove my point.
Hey Joe,
You never did answer the question of when required giving was changed from 23.3% in the OT to 10% in the NT. Book, chapter and verse please. Still waiting.
As I mentioned over at Wade B's place:
Wade:
Les P. has up a new blog item but look what he has up now as it relates to his blog:
"Comments on this blog are restricted to team members."
Wonder what he is so afraid of, Wade.
I guess he is bunkered down and can only deal with comments that support his view, he no longer really has a blog.
You reckon we ought to tell him that?
I'd have to say the Sheriff has really shook old Les up.
It is really too funny if this whole scenario was not just so sad. But as the old saying goes he made his bed and he will have to lie in it.
Credibility on Les P's part?????
Looks like Les is taking Mac's advice. When they start getting too close to the truth, you gotta "shum 'em down!"
Les transparency.
Les accountability.
Les humility.
Les honesty.
Dr. Durham has the right to offer that perpective if he wants to. He really does. He just doesn't have the right to hold to that position and call himself a Christian.
__________________________________
Joe - I am a Christian (or at least I am trusting in Christ alone for my salvation. But if I must tithe to be a Christian, then I guess I am not one) and it is my conviction that new testament Christians are not required to tithe. Nothing in the New Testament and nothing in the Old Testament supports anyone giving 10% of their income to a local fellowship of believers.
Can you tell us, sir, where that is taught anywhere in either testament? I am not just saying it is OT and doesn't transfer to the NT. I am saying it was never done anywhere in either testament. And...anyone who claims it is, and who at the same times makes their living off of people's tithes and offerings, cannot be considered a true Christian. Seriously. It's not in the Bible. Period. Deal with it.
Joe, I can't remember reading in my Bible that God gave YOU the responsibility for determining who is or is not a Christian. Of course, you guys of the Baptist Fundamentalist persuasion have been reading your own"inerrant" version of Holy Scripture for the last 30 years or so, haven't you. All us poor "liberals" are left with texts we can actually read...Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic and good English translations of God's word from those languages. You do read the "original" languages, I presume? If you do not, cease your silly, uninformed criticism of things about which you know little or nothing.
Joe - do the congregations you preach to know that you call people "waste of human flesh" and "human excrement" on the Internet? I know you're really proud that you sign your name to everything, and you call those who don't "cowards".
But tell me. Do the people you preach to know the vitriol you express towards others on the Internet? What if someone wrote letters to your pastor and to your church members and the board of deacons where you preach and shared with them your statements on the Internet? Or are you a coward to let them know the language you use against your brothers in Christ?
Am I a waste of human flesh? Am I human excrement and belly button lint as you have called others?
I used to wonder how people could kill others in the name of Jesus Christ centuries ago...or how the Salem witch trials actually could have happened in this country...you are a modern, living proof of how that happened. I believe if you were unrestrained by law, you would justify killing those who hold heretical doctrines. And you'd give praise to your god while you did it.
You are a sad, sad man, Joe.
FBC Jax Watchdog:
The scary thing about Joe B. is that none of the CR guys ever call him out for his ugliness.
The type of ugliness the CR created has gone on so long they don't even recognize it.
I certainly would not have wanted to be at the church he pastored.
After graduating college, I hope the Lord doesn't call me to a church that has people like Tom Rich or Joe Blackmon. Just sayin
Joe, this would be great fun if so much were not at stake. You failed to answer my question. How proficient are you in the original Biblical languages? Do you read any of them, or do you just parrot the worn-out lines of your Fundamentalist cronies? How many of Dr. John I. Durham's classes did you attend? How many of his books have you actually read? I appreciate the designation of "Mainstreamer" that you have given me. Thank you for recognizing that I attempt yo walk with my Lord through the deep waters of life rather than hang-out in the shallows. As for your unkind description of Dr. Durham, I prefer to let God decide which of you is the greater "waste...." From where I sit, that's not even a contest.
Ed, hope you will elect to attend a good seminary before seeking a call to a church. Choose one that will challenge you, not one that will simply reinforce everything you think you already know.
Hey Joe,
You never did answer the question of when required giving was changed from 23.3% in the OT to 10% in the NT. Book, chapter and verse please. Still waiting.
Joe got aweful quiet.
"After graduating college, I hope the Lord doesn't call me to a church that has people like Tom Rich or Joe Blackmon."
Maybe the Lord will call you to a church full of perfect people!
Here is what Wikipedia has to say about the tithe:
In Christianity, some interpretations of Biblical teachings conclude that although tithing was practiced extensively in the Old Testament, it was never practiced or taught within the first-century Church. Instead the New Testament scriptures are seen as teaching the concept of "freewill offerings" as a means of supporting the church: 1 Corinthians 16:2, 2 Corinthians 9:7.
Tithing - Part 2 (Wikipedia):
One aspect of Old Testament tithing that advocates neglect is the fact that tithing did not apply to a workman's earnings, but applied to the agricultural crops grown on a farmer's land - this means that tithing was done from the profit a land-owner received from his assets. There are no recorded instances in the Bible of a workman "tithing" from wages that he received for his labor. Since the vast majority of modern workers make a living by selling their labor to an employer rather than by earning profits off of a material asset like a farm, it's debatable whether the practice of "tithing" would apply to a modern worker even if tithing is still part of the New Covenant.
Tithing - Part 3 (Wikipedia):
Due to the fact that the New Testament explicitly directs Christians to give voluntarily as each person has determined in their hearts (2 Corinthians 9:7) and condemns those who make a show of their donations to organized religion (Mark 12:41-44, Matt. 6:3), the arguments for tithing as a Biblical practice seem to violate the basic principles of Biblical interpretation used by most conservative Protestants. These Christians usually stress the plain meaning of the text. One reason why the practice is so vigorously promoted by conservative Protestant leaders, aside from the financial benefits of tithing for their institutions, may be that people who tithe or make other large sacrifices for the Church gain a positive reputation for their devotion. Christians may also feel that they've earned God's favor through their sacrifice.[2] Opponents of tithing note that the Bible explicitly condemns making public sacrifices as a means of enhancing one's reputation (Matt. 6:3), so the public testimonies of tithing advocates actually run the risk of being sin.
Stand To Reason position on tithing:
http://str.convio.net/site/PageServer?pagename=blog_iframe
Type "tithe" into the search window that displays and press enter. Then click on the first link.
Watch the short 4 minute video.
A well-reasoned answer.
Should Christians Tithe?
Here is the position paper from Gregory Koukl:
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5624
"The Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 made it clear that the burden of the Mosaic Law that was distinctly Jewish in nature should not be laid on the shoulders of the Gentile believers."
Just a few months ago, Les engaged in a bit of a bullying effort in comments on my blog. . . repeatedly accusing me of "libel." (A standard tactic in the SBC arsenal of how to "shut 'em down.") Ultimately, after reflexively slinging mud FIRST, Les finally had to back down and he even acknowledged that what I was saying was documented -- i.e., that in connection with the Bob Reccord scandal at the North American Mission Board, Mary Kinney Branson's book "documents a payment of $92K to Hunt" -- i.e., $92,000 paid to Johnny Hunt, who is now president of the SBC. But even though Les said he would be "first in line to confront Dr. Hunt" if it were proven, and even though Les himself finally acknowledged that the payment was documented, I never heard anything more on whether Les actually followed through on what he said he would do. My guess is that it's a whole heckuva lot easier for someone like Les to sling mud at someone like me than it is to actually confront someone like Johnny Hunt. Oh gee whiz, doing something like that might put Les's own ambitions at risk.
Christa,
Les accused someone of libel on this blog because they misspelled his name.
LOL!!!
Joe B.,
How dare you refer to Wade Burleson with such vulgarity! It must make you feel uncomfortable to hear the truth spoken that you have to succumb to such low standards. Wade is a man that speaks the truth.
"Lots of us disagree with Wade. The problem you have is he does not moderate like you all do. He allows dissent"
"Joe can make ugly comments at Les' place and Les does nothing about it. But if Les does not like your comment he gets nasty."
From personal experience, I know Wade only allows certain kinds of dissent. He has deleted many comments that were not anywhere near as bad as some he allows to stand. He is very slick at this game, and he has refused many times to clearly answer simple questions about basics of the Christian faith. He allows and encourages his sycophants to "answer" for him so that nothing can be pinned on him, and their answers are no less ambiguous than his.
Don't get me wrong... Wade has done much good. But the things that anger him or that he chooses to either remain silent about or lash out about, are very very disturbing. He plays the same censorship game as many others, but does it discreetly. So the real difference between Wade and others is only a matter of degree. His pattern shows preference for the person, not the content of their post, and the things most likely to draw his ire are things he does to others: point out their sins. He seems obsessed with it, but let someone point at him with so much as their little finger, and the claws come out, sometimes from him but usually from a whole school of piranhas that rip the flesh off anyone who dares to try it.
Like I said, many are far worse than Wade. But I think he's doing great damage to the faith in his own subtle ways. A mixture of truth and error is a deadly poison, regardless of the proportions. Just sayin'.
(and I have every confidence that his supporters will now engage in more character assassination on me for even posting my opinion about him here-- or maybe not, since I said they would... head games...)
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