Just about a month ago, Tim Guthrie (left), pastor of Arlington Baptist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee, and president of Ecklund Stewardship Ministries, posted a blog article on his blog SBC Today entitled "The Demise of Christian Blogging". The article has since been taken down, but re-printed below.This is an example of the "defense" that supporters of Ergun Caner have put forth - it's less of a defense, and more of an outright verbal assault on those who are calling for Caner to give answers about inconsistencies in his testimony. Tim can't give a defense, he can only attack.
I find Guthrie's own vitriol, his angry words and name-calling to be highly disturbing. He is an SBC pastor, a trained minister, someone who supposedly was called by God to be a humble undershepherd, a pastor, yet he has stooped so low as to call fellow Christians terrible names and declare them to be heretics. I wonder if his church family knows this is the kind of stuff their pastor writes on the Internet about people that disagree with him. If I were at Arlington Baptist Church, I sure wouldn't want to express any ideas contrary to Tim's, for fear he give me a dose of his pastorly venom like he has here in this article.
But below is Tim's post in italics, with my emphases in red, and my commentary on his words in bold print.
The Demise of Christian Blogging, by Pastor Tim Guthrie
"This is the week we Christians celebrate the greatest event in all the world - the resurrection of our Lord. This is a week when all of Christianity should be reminded of why we live and how important our mission on this earth is to our Lord. As I sit here with a million words racing through my mind, I find a strong disgust overflowing for so called Christian blogging today. How to balance the thoughts of the resurrection, it's message and meaning, with the thoughts of the demise of Christian blogging is tough."
WD Comment: Translation - "I'm about to blast some fellow Christians out of the water and declare them NOT Christians, but I do it because I love Jesus so much. Amen? Amen!"
"For several weeks a few minions have been trying to go after a Christian brother. In doing so the words of our Lord pertaining to conduct have been tossed aside by the ego driven vitriol of a few with nothing better to do with their time and so called calling than to attack a brother in Christ. Even as I write these words I catch myself being tempted to stoop down to their level. Surely my flesh would love to do so. I am reminded that Jesus spoke verily clearly pertaining to what role we are to play in judging and implementing vengeance. Troubling to me is the depth that some will go with self motivation and grandiose self accolades for their "great" work in accomplishing something of pure nothing. Trying to rid myself of the thoughts of the flesh is no easy task. I know what it is like to live in a glass house. I understand the deep concerns for family safety and the tiring task of being beat upon daily while not being able to swing back in self defense at all. I feel the pain that my brother feels and yet I know that even I in my empathy can do very little to assist."
WD Comments: How interesting. Tim refers to those who were exposing the lies of Ergun Caner, as "minions" (whose minions, maybe Satan's?), and characterizes their blogging as "attacks", and possessing "ego-driven vitriol". Hmmm, "vitriol"...that word sounds familiar to the FBC Jax Watchdog.
People such as James White and the infamous FBC Watchdog are minions that will in all likely hood (sic) never go away. They are the cross that many will have to bear. One day Jesus will make all things revealed and their sorrow and shame will be upon them. The Internet has allowed people to spill their garbage. I wonder what could be accomplished if we all took the time invested in Internet fluff and instead served the Lord with all our hearts, energy and creativity. Much could be accomplished in and for the Kingdom for sure.
WD Comments: More "minion" accusations. I think the "garbage" that has been spilled on the Internet are Caner's lies and misrepresentations of his past after 9/11. And Tim, what you couldn't do as a minister if you would only stop attacking bloggers, and get busy ministering to your flock. I'm sure you have some recalcitrants that need a good tongue lashing from you!
"What actually makes me laugh is when I read that these minions have the audacity to think that emailing and calling leadership of one's employment will actually result in some type of public response. This type of activity is not new. For years it occurred with letters and phone calls. It is has now moved up a few notches with the ease of web site formation and blogging. The ability for anyone to make videos (alter and or pick apart) has added to the picture. God has provided this new technology as a means of spreading the Gospel. Yet today we discover that Satan is alive and well in leading us astray to use that meant for good to showcase our sinful natures and total misuse of time, energy and creativity."
WD Comments: More "minion" accusations. That must be the word Tim learned in his "hooked on phonics" tape of the week. Yes, according to Tim the Internet was provided by God for the spreading of the Gospel, but it was never intended to expose the lies of Caner. The Internet is only for those things that Tim deems worthwhile. The hypocrisy is dripping from every paragraph of this article by Tim. He must deem HIS use of the Internet to attack his brothers and sisters as "minions" acceptable, but for bloggers to expose the lies of Caner is unacceptable. This is why it is dangerous to think of zealots like Guthrie and his ilk ever having political power in this country. They would use their power to silence any critics, and they would do it in the name of Jesus Christ.
"There is absolutely nothing new being brought to light concerning Dr. Ergun Caner. True indeed is the fact that minions like James White and Mohammad will stop at nothing in their desire to bring harm to the ministry that God has called him to. For the life of me how can anyone not see the ridiculous of Mr. White questioning the integrity of Dr. Caner while failing to admit himself that his "doctor degrees" are non accredited. This is not a major issue accept for the fact that the history of the school has been questioned and Mr. White obviously fails to understand that Dr. Caner had to undergo a major screening to fill the position he now has. How ridiculous is it that a Muslim man who has been out to destroy Dr. Caner is now being linked to and advises Christians while his error of faith goes without question and his eternal life is destined for Hell. I guess when Mr. White says he believes in limited atonement, Mohammad is just out of the equation. I guess Mr. White and a few others fail to realize that Christians are to be separate from the evil ones. Maybe just maybe, this is blind passion of a man who would much rather suck blood from a Christian brother to promote is own false doctrine than to be busy about leading people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ."
WD Comments: Tim is incorrect. Shortly before he wrote this, I put on the Internet excerpts from Caner's November 2001 sermon at FBC Jax - these were entirely new, they had nothing to do with Mohammad Khan, and they showed that Caner had started his deceptions right after 9/11.
Tim is a Pharisee - he accuses Dr. White of being "linked to" a Muslim. This is exactly the kind of crap the Pharisees pulled on Jesus. They accused him of hanging around the wrong people, guilt by association. Jesus refused to play by the rules established by the religous leaders. No, Jesus never said to "separate from the evil ones"...the "evil ones" in Jesus day that he warned us about were the religious leaders who abused their power over people like Guthrie is trying to do here in this blog post.
Notice Tim falsely accuses Dr. White of "sucking the blood" out of Caner, and he wrongly accuses Dr. White of "false doctrine". Yes, White is a Calvinist, but he is a brother in Christ. Can't Tim see what a terrible witness he is as a pastor to be writing like this?
"I know that the counter attacks to this post will call me hypocritical and more. That is the way it works these days. One group is free to attack while the other group is presumed guilty and must repent. How sad is the logic in that. How sad is the person who thinks that by doing some internet research that is old news is now out of nowhere NEW? How sad is it that people who are lost will read once again of Christians attacking other Christians? I wonder how Mr. White and the other minions wake up each day knowing that they are so spiritual and yet have to live in the midst of us not spirituals? It sure must be tough for them. "
"Christian blogging should be more than this. Our conduct as Christians should be better than this. It was this garbage that Jesus died for! Maybe we have forgotten. Maybe we need to be reminded. Maybe some just don't care! "
WD Comments: Yes, Jesus died for the garbage being spewn from Tim Guthrie.
"I will close by saying this to Dr. Ergun Caner. The road may be filled with pot holes and cracks. Do not worry. Do not let your flesh and the pain it feels become your focus. The minions will have their day! You have a ministry that is fruitful and God ordained. Stick to it and keep doing what you have been called to do. The demise of Christian blogging is not your worry. The lost who need to hear of Jesus and His payment for their sins are your priority. Your family will be fine and your ministry will flourish. You sir are in great company with men like Rogers, Vines, Falwell and more. Stay the course as these men did and let God have His way with the minions. "
WD Comments: Two more "minions", bringing the total to six. Yes, let's tell Ergun that he is in the same league as Vines and Rogers and Falwell. Never mind the decade of deception, Tim. Just keep gushing over how wonderful Caner is...and maybe he'll add your church to his speaking schedule where you can gush even more.
"And Ergun, one more thing - I think it was a great gesture on your part to honor your father by using his name in yours. Funny how people just don't stop and think about what is right in front of their own eyes. "
WD Comments: Why did he wait until after 9/11 to change his middle name to "Mehmet" to honor his father? Why not immediately after his father died or earlier.
And Tim, finally: who is the real "minion" here? It is you, you are the Ergun Caner minion.
79 comments:
WD,
I tried to post the following at Dr. Lumpkins blog in response to Dr. Geisler's endorsement of Ergun Caner. Dr. Lumpkins did not feel it relevant to the thread and did not post it. He may be right and it is his blog. But I feel the words I wrote apply to Tim Gutherie as well.
Here is what I wrote:
I have prayed for Dr. Caner and will continue to do so. May the Lord grant him repentance and restore his integrity that he may have a long and fruitful ministry that is pleasing to God. No reasonable person who has listened to Dr. Caner's own words and has read the documents posted online can conclude anything else than that he has been deceitful. Those who have Dr. Caner's ear and truly love him will encourage him to repent. Anything less is to encourage a brother to continue in his sin. That would be harmful to his life, his ministry and his soul. Consider these verses:
But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person.
(Mat 15:18 ESV)
Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
(Psa 32:2 ESV)
What man is there who desires life and loves many days, that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.
(Psa 34:12-13 ESV)
No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes.
(Psa 101:7 ESV)
Because I love Dr. Caner I pray that he will repent and be a public example of God's marvelous grace to sinners like us.
In the Love of Christ,
Richard
WD, it is unbelievable the extent that Guthrie, Rodgers and Lumpkins will go! You said, “This is why it is dangerous to think of zealots like Guthrie and his ilk ever having political power in this country. They would use their power to silence any critics, and they would do it in the name of Jesus Christ.”
I couldn’t help but think it sounds like stuff right out of Wade’s, Hardball Religion.
There is no doubt about it Anon. The powerful men in the SBC have actively sought to either shut down blogs, or to intimidate and slander and ridicule those who have blogs, that express views they don't like, or that are embarrassing to their leadership. Tim is just taking his cues from the leaders. He is a very good "minion" - not of Satan, but of the SBC leadership. That's not a put-down, that's a fact.
check out his illogical, 'trying to change the subject away from Caner', comments here:
http://debbiekaufman.wordpress.com/2010/05/23/a-new-post-from-tiffany-croft-victim-of-darrel-gilyard/#comments
If you read these guys you get an idea of the tactics used for the CR. They are protege's of the master, Patterson.
Has anyone noticed their defense of Caner is to point fingers at anyone who dares ask Caner to explain his many discrepancies over the last 9 years?
Their only pointed defense is to claim that questioners are saying Caner was never Muslim. This is a red herring. I think he was definitely Muslim. But I do not think he was devout or trained for Jihad.
Gutherie, Rogers, Lumpkins, etc, refuse to answer when asked at what age Caner came to this country. Why? Because the minute they do, they know we can link to Caner saying something different. So, they say to read his book. (Never mind his different versions with speaking gigs. I guess those do not count in their world)
They are trying real hard to control the discussion even making the rules as to what is relevant and what is sinful to discuss.
It is called Millieu Control and it is a typical cult tactic.
He who makes the rules, wins. We allowed them to make the rules for decades. Those days are over.
For some reason, they really do believe they have some authority. It is bizarre. I would not trust any of them or follow any of them out of a parking lot.
I think this is what comes from living in an insulated bubble called the SBC Baptist Identity pastorate.
To you Mr Tim Guthrie and others who think like you - I say;
You and others like you remind me so much of why we MUST continue to EXPOSE what continues to be an alarming trend toward extremism, fanaticism, and legalism pressures within the ministry - ESPECIALLY the Baptist denomination.
In my opinion YOU sound like you sir are wanting to become a part of those within "the Baptist Mafia"
who want total control without any questions of authority......or are you already there?
You're probably one of those ministers who has done away with all committees and trustees within the church so you can have total control of that church. If so...your definately a part of those within "the Baptist Mafia".
Doing away with mostly all of the committees and trustees is a warning sign to all Church members that your Pastor may be a member within "the Baptist Mafia".......
But they will tell you they are "of authority" and it is Biblical and the church should be lead 100% totally submissive to the Pastor or as they say....Pastor Lead.
I call this a "CULT!"
I say to all those within "the Baptist Mafia" who think just like you......
"The Internet,The Great Equalizer!"
Thank GOD for it..or was that Thank Al for it :)
Still signing my name to what I post,
Doug
P.S. Are you one of Mike's friends or his disciple?........
This post reminds me of a drunk driver getting all upset about frivolous lawsuits. "Everybody is sue happy. Everyone wants to get rich off someone else's mistake." "People are out for a quick buck." True or not, the drunk driver never understands that it is HIS OWN ACTIONS that caused the legitimate concerns and consequences of those sue happy people in his specific case. Likewise, arrogant, bullying, charlatans get so upset over "demise of blogging" when the blogs are pointing out their OWN ACTIONS (nepotism. lying about tithing, financial abuse, lack of transparency, writing one thing in a book and doing the exact opposite, using friends at the JSO to be your errand boy, trying to "shut down" and "aggressively confront" bloggers who question them as if this were China or Iran.
Man Tim, if only you lived in China, you could get the government to shut down these bloggers. But then again, the government would also shut down your church Tim. So which way do you want it? Do you want to go back to the inquistion days? If so, again, the Church would be shutting YOU down Tim.
And consider that bloggers only blog about those that are not humbly serving the lord. Hundreds of thousands of ministers and we have what, 4 or 5 blogs? Really Tim, the demise of blogging is a problem? Or is it just YOUR problem now?
Thanks for revealing your pastor's heart to us all Tim. I am sure Jesus is glorified. The lost can discount the occasional blogger's name calling and vitriol, but maybe not that of a pastor. Sheesh. Tim, get a grip, you just made it worse.
Interesting how Mr Guthrie is pointing the finger at everyone who dares to ask for answers to their questions.
He is a preacher gasping for oxygen - just like the oil spill.
We, the "minions" benefit from the blogging points of Mr. Guthrie.
What he wrote just confirms to the "minion crowd" that he and his Celebrity preacher friends are in trouble. This is not going to go away - it's very serious stuff.
Very "threatening" blog message from a Pastor. No wonder the masses are leaving the SBC churches.
Hey Tim Guthrie - if you want to be in the same league as Vines and Brunson, you have got it all wrong brother. They don't get on blogs to try and discuss their viewpoint, hoping it will carry the day. No, to be like them, you have to use your position of power. The pulpit. Stand up there on a Sunday morning and take your shots at bloggers, particularly if they are anonymous (though that won't help you against Wade Burleson, James White, Mohammed Khan, Tiffany Croft, the Wartburg Watch ladies or others.
Stomp and spit and make veiled threats about God is going to get them. Go whine to Paige Patterson before you speak at chapel at SWBTS so the poor seminary students can pray for the millionaire speaker of the day. Have your deacons and trustees issue a "resolution" and post it on the internet for the world to see (but be quick to take it down when you get found out about involving the JSO and SAO).
Never, ever, ever, try Matthew 18. That does not apply to you preachers. Call the blogger names in the newspaper, and have your trustee/deacon chairman call him names too.
So Tim, you have a lot to learn from Vines, who took advantage of his first opportunity to preach back at his former church of 23 years, to spit at anonymous letters and high five his co-millionaire on stage about high salaries. All of the above will really teach those bloggers a lesson. And it will shut em down. Or, it may just show the world the blogger was right and give him an explosion in readership nationally and result in two landmark cases that will result in accountability to these bullies in the future.
yes, name dropping Vines and Patterson and Brunson should be our goal. (I am leaving Rogers and Falwell out since they are not here to defend themselves any more, and from all indications, never attempted to shut down bloggers that disagreed with them.)
Tim Guthrie, thou dost protest too much. If you were genuinely doing God's work, then your conscience would be absolutely clear and you would not have to fight the flesh, or fight back regarding what people say about you or one of your cohorts. I do not appreciate the tactic that there is nothing new here, so you indirectly claim to have already addressed the concerns of the Watchdog. NONE OF THE WATCHDOG CONCERNS HAVE EVER BEEN ADDRESSED! That goes for concerns regarding Ergun Caner, Mac Brunson, Paige Patterson ..... You greedy "pastors" just want the Watchdog to go away because he EXPOSES YOU.
One thing has nagged me with all this blogging counter attacks ...
What is the payback for people like Tim Guthrie and others who are so earnest in their defense of Ergun Caner?
(I have limited imagination here. Feel free to help me out here.)
Do they hope to be appointed to Mega Churches as Senior Pastors in their life time?
Do they hope to appointed as trustees to SBC organizations and seminaries?
Do they get discounts for tuition (maybe the whole tuition might be waived for some of them) at Liberty and SBC Seminaries for their yeoman work and service?
Book deals with multiple authors?
Jump on the preacher circuit bandwagon for high-priced speeches and sermons at mega churches around the country?
Life is good, as long as you are connected to the elite in SBC leadership. I forgot all about nepotism. Family bonds rule here.
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/avoiding-death-by-nostalgia-my-denomination-the-sbc-today
This is an interesting commentary on the progress of the SBC. When we wonder, "Where have all the Baptists gone?"--well, I saw where a bunch of them have gone last weekend. I attended one meeting of a pentecostal conference on healing and almost everyone on the stage were former Baptists. I suspect that the crowd was about the same.
And it was a crowd that any number counting church would have been pleased with.
Bennett Willis
"What is the payback for people like Tim Guthrie and others who are so earnest in their defense of Ergun Caner?"
BINGO.
You just figured it out. For some, it is enough to be considered a team player albeit...on the fringe of the in group.
For others, it is about politics...as in anything goes as long as it defends our brand of politics. Their whole identity is wrapped up in this. So, if Caner goes down, so does the credibility of quite a few of the political culture warriors. So, never admit you are wrong...use Alinsky's rules to fight.
But in the end, if you have devoted your life and self to the promotion of a group or position, pride almost always gets in the way of admitting you could have been wrong about the group or a leader within the group.
If you have seen their their years and years of supporting Patterson, no matter what he does, you would understand where they are coming from.
Lydia, very interesting! You said, "Gutherie, Rogers, Lumpkins, etc, refuse to answer when asked at what age Caner came to this country. Why? Because the minute they do, they know we can link to Caner saying something different."
I wonder why they can't answer that one? He told The Associated Press in 2002 that their father brought the family to Ohio in 1969, when he was about 3 years old.
Yet--on his website and many sermons he said he came in 1978 as a teenager.
A 5th grader knows that it can't be both.
Re: Dr. degrees that are non-accredited.....
And how many honorary Dr. degrees do these megas have? Many of these big shots don't have EARNED Dr. degrees. I almost always chocked when I had to refer to one mega star as Dr., in the past when speaking to him. I didn't even respect him as a God called preacher.
Bloggers 9:24 and 9:40.... Great insights. True very true!
Imagination time: Our forefathers sailed to these shores to escape religious oppression by the Church of England and the Catholic Church. Now, let's imagine our current Baptist leaders were to sail off and start a new country...:
1) Get RID of that establishment clause! We will set up OUR religion.
2) This maybe should be number one to make sure we get (1) above done, but we MUST get rid of freedom of speech! Otherwise, people will say things that question us. Which actually is attacking us and slanderous of us and "an attack on the Lord Jesus Christ himself."
3) Blogging, unless it is brown nosing and cross promotion of the leaders, will be illegal.
4) Bible reading is illegal. Why? Matthew 18 is in there and we don't like that one. AND, more importantly, bible readers will see that tithing to a group of new testament believers of one's wages is not taught anywhere in the Old or New testaments. (This might hurt giving because our people are all just like us...materialistic hoarders of wealth for themselves.)
5. Men must be dominant and women must submit. Not go so far as telling them not to wear make-up or cover their heads or remain silent. But at least that they can never teach a man or have authority over a man AND NEVER can they be allowed to get our pastor gigs. (Too many perks)
Well, my imagination is running wild, what a great place this would be. But would we have alcohol and abortions? It seems most Christians can't agree on those either. Would we be democrat or republican? No consensus on that either? How about going back to the days of the King or of the Pope (Holy Roman Emperor)...we tried that but the stupid sheep revolted.
Hmmm. Maybe best to just start a bunch of countries and then we can go to war and kill those that differ with us. We could call them crusades!
Amen Tim?
In this tough economy I am having trouble supporting my family. Anyone know where I can get a Masters of Divinity? How about a doctorate in church history? I know those degrees are in high demand in the marketplace and are very competitive. Where is the entrance exam like the MCAT and LSAT taken? I am sure the top notch students are all competing for those high demand degrees. What about a doctorate in "preaching", I am sure lots of businesses are looking for that. And I must be called "doctor" too, it gives me so much more respect than "pastor" or "brother" as a title.
I have had the privilege to share the gospel with 7 people this month. Three in one setting last night. Of these seven, two prayed to receive Jesus.
God is still at work. Are there any other people here who can share how they are involved in sharing Jesus as much as they are involved in critiquing each other.
NC Calvinist.
"Are there any other people here who can share how they are involved in sharing Jesus as much as they are involved in critiquing each other."
Just in case it's not clear to everyone, this comment section is dedicated to comments about the accompanying story.
You should leave ministry story comments on the ministry stories on this blog or on the thousands of other blogs that write about ministry stories.
Unfortunately, I think you probably already knew that and are just trying to place an unbibical burden of guilt on Christians who are doing what the Bereans did.
Namely, questioning the sermons of those in authority for accuracy as Paul recommended.
What an upside down world we live in where the leadership tries to cover the sin of one of their own while the layity and secular press tries to expose unconfessed sin in the leadership.
I want to respond to what.....
"Anonymous said...
I have had the privilege to share the gospel with 7 people this month. Three in one setting last night. Of these seven, two prayed to receive Jesus.
God is still at work. Are there any other people here who can share how they are involved in sharing Jesus as much as they are involved in critiquing each other.
NC Calvinist."
Since your so proud and want a pat on the back, here
PAT PAT PAT
Are you sure THEY made a true personal decision or did you "push" a decision on them like so many Calvinist now do?
Or were they say under the age of 10?
Feel better now...
I question the braggers who do a ministry with NO humbleness or humility.....
Ministry of Reconciliation [Debbie Kaufman] > A New Post From Tiffany Croft, Survivor of Darrel Gilyard.
Tim Guthrie on a roll in the above post comments ...
"Just in case it's not clear to everyone, this comment section is dedicated to comments about the accompanying story. "
Hmmmm, I think the comment section is open to anything the owner of this blog chooses to publish.
Are you discrediting the comments about people getting saved or just deflecting?
I'll take your response as you have no story to share.
"Since your so proud and want a pat on the back, here
PAT PAT PAT
Are you sure THEY made a true personal decision or did you "push" a decision on them like so many Calvinist now do?
Or were they say under the age of 10?
Feel better now...
I question the braggers who do a ministry with NO humbleness or humility....."
No pride demonstrated.
No pushing anyone. I used the FAITH outline.
All who were shared with were above 15.
I am sorry you see sharing about people getting saved as bragging. I was really hoping to see if anyone was talking about Jesus to a lost world instead of just criticizing each other. So far it doesn't seem so.
"God is still at work. Are there any other people here who can share how they are involved in sharing Jesus as much as they are involved in critiquing each other."
In the time you came to this blog, wrote the comment and posted it, you could have shared the Gospel. Shame on you.
Did you know that Calvin regulated the amount of courses people could eat at a meal in Geneva? He also wanted the death penalty for adultery which became embarssing when his sister in law who was living with him was accused.
He also wrote 38 counts against Servetus for his trial and even wanted him to be beheaded because burning at the stake would be considered a religious punishment and Calvin wanted heresy to be considered a civil crime. He also had Servetus arrested when he came to hear Calvin speak.
You follow a real nice guy and I have only scratched the surface of his legalism. You believe in sacraments, too?
"Hmmmm, I think the comment section is open to anything the owner of this blog chooses to publish."
Hmmmmm, how about if we stick to the topic instead of patting ourselves on the back.
"Are you discrediting the comments about people getting saved or just deflecting?"
How is saying that you should publish your "look at me" comments in the appropriate forum discrediting or deflecting?
"I'll take your response as you have no story to share."
I'll take my credit when I get to heaven instead if that's OK with you.
Proverbs 27: 2
Hey Bragger - how many hungry did you feed? How many homeless did you provide shelter for. How many orphans and widows did you minister to in their time of need? How often did you seek justice?
How are your wife and kids getting along with you? Did their needs go unmet while you were out trying to save the world?
Just wonderin...since you decided to bring up works. Are you a Jehovah's witness? Maybe a Mormon? How many converts did you make?
I like the picture of Tim. He reminds me of a nerd I used to pick on and bully when I was in middle school. Wait a minute, that IS him. No wonder he is so ticked off.
Baptist Life Forums > SBC News and Trends > Norman Geisler Defends Ergun Caner.
"Hey Bragger - how many hungry did you feed? How many homeless did you provide shelter for. How many orphans and widows did you minister to in their time of need? How often did you seek justice?
How are your wife and kids getting along with you? Did their needs go unmet while you were out trying to save the world?
Just wonderin...since you decided to bring up works. Are you a Jehovah's witness? Maybe a Mormon? How many converts did you make?"
Why is sharing about people getting saved, bragging? Why is this such a taboo topic to some when criticizing others is a norm?
I actually thought that sharing about the work of the gospel would be refreshing. I guess I was wrong.
Thanks Dog, for posting the last two comments I submitted. I have been supportive of the direction you have gone. I don't know if I have agreed completely with everything you have said but agree with the heart of the matter. I'm sorry some of your supporters think the subject I bring up is off limits.
I am saddened that there is an attack mode by some for bringing up the subject I did. Caustic lost people don't seem to be so angry at the gospel being shared.
It is also sad that when God's children get together that sharing evangelism experiences brings out so much hostility.
Again, thanks for what you are doing but I hope the attitude of the few who have been caustic are not representative of your heart.
That's not Tim Guthrie, it's Beau Bridges.
"Why is sharing about people getting saved, bragging?"
Because its all about you.
"Why is this such a taboo topic to some when criticizing others is a norm?"
Its not. Its just that you are trying to hijack the topic and make it about you. If you need your ego stroked that badly, start your own blog.
"I actually thought that sharing about the work of the gospel would be refreshing. I guess I was wrong."
Perphaps if it had presented that way, it would have been. The first word in your original post "I" says it all.
"I am saddened that there is an attack mode by some for bringing up the subject I did."
And now you are attacking the attackers. So, how is that different?
"It is also sad that when God's children get together that sharing evangelism experiences brings out so much hostility."
It doesn't when it is presented correctly and in the correct forum.
"I hope the attitude of the few who have been caustic are not representative of your heart."
Still haven't figured it out have you?
Proverbs 27: 2
So Tim Guthrie, or anyone else who cares to honor me with a response, what so you teach your children about lying? Is lying ok if it somehow advances the cause of Christ? How can lying advance the cause of Christ? How can exploiting one of the darkest moments in recent u s history for personal advantage help lead others to Christ? As far as my being among the “minions,” I did not start posting until a certain preacher referred to my brothers and sisters as “trash.” If I am not mistaken I believe that is a “vitriol” comment. There is a time to remain silent and there is a time to speak out. The time has come to speak out!
"Why is sharing about people getting saved, bragging?"
"Because its all about you."
Good grief, I didn't see that in what was written. I saw someone testifying of God using them to lead two people to Jesus.
"Why is this such a taboo topic to some when criticizing others is a norm?"
"Its not. Its just that you are trying to hijack the topic and make it about you. If you need your ego stroked that badly, start your own blog."
Do you have such a huge chip on your shoulder concerning evangelism that you can't celebrate the fact that two people got saved? even if the person sharing was making it about them, why not look beyond that and praise God for the salvation of two people?
"I actually thought that sharing about the work of the gospel would be refreshing. I guess I was wrong."
"Perphaps if it had presented that way, it would have been. The first word in your original post "I" says it all."
Look back through the 30 or so posts on this thread. Count those that the person is starting with "I" at the beginning or at the start of a new paragraph.
Four of the first five do. When Richard Jones said "I have prayed..." Was he making it all bout him? If you apply your rules you would have to say so. It seems your problem is deeper than the use of the word 'I". Maybe it is because of the topic of evangelism.
"I am saddened that there is an attack mode by some for bringing up the subject I did."
"And now you are attacking the attackers. So, how is that different?'
This is where you don't make sense. How is being saddened for the attack they believe they are receiving, attacking you or anyone else? The only one attacking is you, friend.
"It is also sad that when God's children get together that sharing evangelism experiences brings out so much hostility."
"It doesn't when it is presented correctly and in the correct forum."
I would think that any Christian forum is a place to share about people being saved. I have not seen where you are to be asked at how a person gives testimony of God working in their lives, seeing people saved. Are you so angry that your heart is so hard?
"I hope the attitude of the few who have been caustic are not representative of your heart."
"Still haven't figured it out have you?
Proverbs 27: 2"
I have figured it out and the problem isn't with the one sharing a testimony of God saving people, it is with the one(s) who find fault in sharing such a testimony.
Christians have a bad habit of shooting their wounded. Let’s pray for and encourage our brother.”
Sincerely in Christ,
Dr. Norman L. Geisler
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Yep, just the minions have bad habits of shooting the wounded.
You so call role model preachers are excempt from having bad habits of shooting their wounded. Your shots don't wound - they do more, they pierce the center of the heart and you very well know you do!
After reading his comments on here today, I emailed a request to speak with Tim Guthrie today and he personally called me back and we conversed for quite some time.
Some on here are not going to believe this but he seems like a sincere and nice guy with a heart for GOD and I told him I respected him more for having a backbone and addressing some tough questions and issues presented to him.
We had a very agreeable to be disagreeable and interesting conversation.
He has some good points and some issues were and are valid.
But one thing that hit me was that there seems to be an US vs THEM attitude - and that is scary.
Folks, we need face to face meetings to resolve issues ......
My question is "when, where, how can these meeting happen if they want to avoid opposition at all cost"?
Doug
NC Calvinist
You are a pompous, self-serving Calvinista who is giving yourself quite a bit of credit for the Lord calling someone to salvation. Was it you that led them to Christ? Is that what Calvinists think?
How would you even know what God is doing in my life? Or the lives of anyone else? Do Calvinists judge others that they do not know?
Is Lumpkin a doctor??
With that, I am
Confused!
As far as my being among the “minions,” I did not start posting until a certain preacher referred to my brothers and sisters as “trash.”
If you're referring to the same certain preacher I think you are, that quote was actually attributed to his wife. Of course, she could have heard it at home.
"Good grief, I didn't see that in what was written. I saw someone testifying of God using them to lead two people to Jesus."
What was written goes against what the Bible teaches (Proverbs 27:2).
Didn't Jesus also speak out against the religious leaders of his day who loved to talk about their good deeds?
"Do you have such a huge chip on your shoulder concerning evangelism that you can't celebrate the fact that two people got saved? even if the person sharing was making it about them, why not look beyond that and praise God for the salvation of two people?"
Do you get a lot of exercise that way? Jumping to conclusions.
Yes, by all means let's rejoice in the ends and justify the means.
Did you attend Liberty University? I believe that is the same thinking that has the in trouble.
I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this. It's not about the salvation. It's about the bragging. It's unbiblical.
"Look back through the 30 or so posts on this thread. Count those that the person is starting with "I" at the beginning or at the start of a new paragraph."
Bill O'Reilly calls this tactic pointing to other bad behavior to justify your own bad behavior.
Not every post that starts with the word "I" is self-serving. But that one surely was.
"This is where you don't make sense. How is being saddened for the attack they believe they are receiving, attacking you or anyone else? The only one attacking is you, friend."
This is the "I am the world" philosophy. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.
Re-read the entire post. He is in full attack mode and being a hypocrite by accusing others of the same. My suggestion would be for him to take his own advice.
"I would think that any Christian forum is a place to share about people being saved. I have not seen where you are to be asked at how a person gives testimony of God working in their lives, seeing people saved. Are you so angry that your heart is so hard?"
Are we going to have to go over this again? You are a little slow my friend. These comments are supposed to relate to the title at the top of the page. Why is that difficult to understand?
Again with the judging of motivations of a complete stranger. Sometimes I don't even know my own motivations. How would you know them?
"I have figured it out and the problem isn't with the one sharing a testimony of God saving people, it is with the one(s) who find fault in sharing such a testimony."
This philosophy comes straight from the culture not the Bible. The sad thing is that most Christians can't tell the difference any more.
Bragging on one's own good works (I shared the Gospel with 7 people last night) is wrong, but then to encourage other Christians to join in your sin is just pathetic.
Is Lumpkin a doctor??
With that, I am
Confused!
Not a medical one, if that's what you meant, but apparently he has a doctorate. From Hannibal Books...
Peter Lumpkins is a Southern Baptist minister living in West Georgia. For more than 20 years, Peter served as a pastor in Kentucky, Tennessee and Georgia. Presently he serves as editor of a developing small-group Bible study series. Peter has degrees in religion and philosophy (B.A.), theology (M.Div.) and expository preaching (D.Min.). He also completed graduate work in bioethics. He writes a popular blog, SBC Tomorrow, which can be found at www.peterlumpkins.com.
Squeaky chair monologue.
"Again with the judging of motivations of a complete stranger. Sometimes I don't even know my own motivations. How would you know them?"
Yet you judge the motives of someone who is sharing their testimony? Someone who has said they were not bragging.
"I actually thought that sharing about the work of the gospel would be refreshing. I guess I was wrong."
I have figured it out and the problem isn't with the one sharing a testimony of God saving people, it is with the one(s) who find fault in sharing such a testimony.
May 24, 2010 7:33 PM
It might help if you read Matthew 6. The "testimony" here was about what this self righteous person was doing. Exactly like a pharisee.
After reading his comments on here today, I emailed a request to speak with Tim Guthrie today and he personally called me back and we conversed for quite some time.
Some on here are not going to believe this but he seems like a sincere and nice guy with a heart for GOD and I told him I respected him more for having a backbone and addressing some tough questions and issues presented to him.
We had a very agreeable to be disagreeable and interesting conversation.
He has some good points and some issues were and are valid.
But one thing that hit me was that there seems to be an US vs THEM attitude - and that is scary.
Folks, we need face to face meetings to resolve issues ......
My question is "when, where, how can these meeting happen if they want to avoid opposition at all cost"?
Doug
May 24, 2010 9:01 PM
Watch your back. They are always nice face to face or phone to phone. Patterson can charm a dog off a meat truck.
It is the back room secret stuff they do which produces a knife in the back while shaking your hand.
Never fall for one minute they have real integrity. Remember, Gutherie does not think Caner has lied at all. Just mispoke for 9 years.
The problem with talking to them for any conflict resolution is that they have been doing these nasty back room things for years. Why would I believe anything they say? I have seen them ruin too many people. Let's just be glad it is not legal to burn what the governing classes think are heretics. They would be lighting the faggots.
Hey BBC
Do you know where he got his doctorate. I am starting to keep a list on this subject.
The squeaking chair monologue:
The chair is driving me nuts.
First, note it is all about him. As if we are all waiting with bated breath for his videos.
Secondly, he has a hat on inside? What is up with that?
Why is it that pastors or former pastors like to talk about themselves so much? Could it be ego and pride? How important they are. How about talking about Jesus only. Try it for a while.
"It is the back room secret stuff they do which produces a knife in the back while shaking your hand."
Anon 7:54
Amen!
The position of power has gone to Celebrity Preachers heads and they feel they have a right to mistreat those in the pews.
They love to excomunicate people who disagree with them - they feel that our opinions are not as important as theirs.
They need to learn to love other people. todays preachers are full of self and the more they speak, the more we see their self centerness.
Ashamed of todays Pastors, but not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, my Savior!
"It is the back room secret stuff they do which produces a knife in the back while shaking your hand."
Anon 7:54
Amen!
The position of power has gone to Celebrity Preachers heads and they feel they have a right to mistreat those in the pews.
They love to excomunicate people who disagree with them - they feel that our opinions are not as important as theirs.
They need to learn to love other people. todays preachers are full of self and the more they speak, the more we see their self centerness.
Ashamed of todays Pastors, but not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, my Savior!
"Yet you judge the motives of someone who is sharing their testimony? Someone who has said they were not bragging."
I am not judging their motivations. I am saying that their actions are unbiblical.
Proverbs 27: 2
BBC
Alert as always, I was hoping to catch you napping.
He never said, "If you don't like it, leave" either but his silence was just clear as if he had said it.
Love ya
Wish
ANON 7:54 AM;
Doug is much smarter than you give him credit for. I guarantee you he spoke with Mr Guthrie carefully. Very carefully.
I agree that there are many barking dogs in the mnistry, but only a few will bite ya.
"I told him I respected him more for having a backbone and addressing some tough questions and issues presented to him."
With all due respect, Doug, when did this happen? I've seen nothing but deflection, denial, "shoot the messenger," and mostly the ignoring of questions.
Did you know that Ergun Caner is/was an experienced skydiver?
Thoughts of Francis Turretin > Ergun Caner's Middle Name is What?.
It appears Mohammad Khan Channel and videos are back in operation at YouTube. I do not know what the reasons are for this.
Peter Lumpkin, Tim Guthrie...I never heard of any of these people before I started reading these blogs. I never heard of Ergun Caner either till I went to FBC Jax. Its not like these people are common names and thats why all this talk of this "hitting the national media" is incorrect. Who in the world cares who these people are other than some southern baptists? And even a lot of them haven't heard of them.
The level of emotional, academic and professional insecurity among Southern Baptist clergy is astounding. Ever notice how these guys trot out their degrees, listing degree levels and majors, but seldom mention the institutions from which the degrees were granted? It is enough to make one laugh...or cry. In no other business, but the religion business would that kind of misrepresentation be permitted. Sure, many SBC clergy possess earned doctorates; however, I would propose that the majority of SBC clergy who use the title "doctor," today, have never done doctoral level study. I often work with clergy of other faiths, many with well-earned doctorates; they seldom present themselves as "Doctor". It is usually enough for them to be referred to as "Reverend," or "Pastor," or "Brother," or "Father," (in the case of Episcopal and Roman Catholic clergy), or just called by first name. Seems to me, those who have invested least in time, study, discipline and intellectual rigor, require most in recognition. This kind of misrepresentation is at the heart of the Caner issue.
Doug,
What were some of Tim's good points and issues? I seldom get past his "us/them" issues. Maybe if someone else expressed them they would seem more credible.
Tim Guthrie may by all other measures be a Godly and honorable person but he will never deviate from the party line; that’s the way the good ol’ boys club works. You are rewarded for strictly following along; stick your neck out and it get’s chopped off.
I know someone who did not follow the “don’t speak out against other ministers rule” over an important issue and a ministerial leadership failure. He said the things that needed to be said.
Who got in trouble? The minister who messed up? NO! The minister who spoke out was roundly reprimanded for saying what needed to be said. The saddest part is he will never do again.
Guys, like Tim Guthrie, win points with the club by attacking those outside of the club who demand accountability.
Maybe Tim G will now say he too was "misquoted".....
Peter Lumpkin, Tim Guthrie...I never heard of any of these people before I started reading these blogs. I never heard of Ergun Caner either till I went to FBC Jax. Its not like these people are common names and thats why all this talk of this "hitting the national media" is incorrect.
Me either. However, I guarantee you a lot of people recognize the name Jerry Falwell. But even now when I hear people say that Caner is done I say I'll believe it when I see it. They've already circled the wagons, and now that the mainstream media is breathing down their necks, LU decided they'd better at least give the appearance of doing an investigation. Of course LU will pronounce him clean. The only reason they won't keep him is if he becomes a financial liability. (Follow the money.) And life in the SBC/good-ol'-boy network will go on as usual.
I know this for a fact. They are only doing this "inquiry" to make it seem they are concerned and to silence so many people who have questioned and emailed the leadership. That's it. This committee is only a formality in order to hush some of the critics.
And BBC you are right, nothing will happen and he will be "honored" by all within the SBC as another blogger attacked minister and " rewarded" with more speaking agendas.
They are not concerned, the least bit. As a matter of fact, he has had a silence demand issued by his representatives until they "clear him".
It is written, it is done.
Doug - I disagree. I predict he is definitely out as president of LBTS, and he might be able to stay as a professor if he publicly repents for his deceptions.
We shall see in about a month.
W D
Not official, but.......
I have info source knowledge....Nothing is going to happen.
The script is being written.....
A hand slap, and it is done....
"Nothing New" will be their battlecry.
But we can hope they change the mind, but holding our breaths will lead us no where.
Doug: I have to agree with you. LU is hoping that is the way it will play out. The only counter pressure to this would be the bloggers continuing to apply pressure and if the media picks up and runs with this story, then in the worst case LU might issue a note of contrition from Ergun Caner. Otherwise it is business as usual.
Who got in trouble? The minister who messed up? NO! The minister who spoke out was roundly reprimanded for saying what needed to be said. The saddest part is he will never do again.
Yes, the silence was deafening after that. I always wondered why James Dobson wasn't crucified for saying virtually the same thing... about the same certain minister. Of course, the silence from Dobson re his former associate, George Rekers, has been deafening, too. Lesson learned?
The script is being written.....
"It was a mistake of the mind, not the heart. Amen. Let's move on."
I predict Caner will not only remain where he is, they'll give him a raise. And in a few years LU will name a building after him.
LU has a significant problem with producing a "whitewash." There is so much of the information that is public/printed/taped. This means that we all have access to most of the same information that they do--and we can interpret it and draw conclusions as well as anyone.
I can't see that they can deny the data, but they can say that it does not matter.
This would be a hard choice to live with. Some have commented that the "media" do not care about this. But when I started reading about Dr. Caner a Google search of "Ergun Caner News" produced about half a page of results. Now the total runs to many pages with most of the increase happening after the CT article. Every "neutral" article comes down hard on Dr. Caner and those that are based on reading some of the data really come down hard. The negative press would be intense if LU does nothing significant in response to this.
I expect that they will have to come up with some response to the majority of "Dr. White's 22 Questions" though that will be very painful--on many levels.
Their problem is clear, their possible responses are not. It will be interesting.
Sorry, I still stick by my prediction:
Definitely a goner from the presidency of LBTS....and the best he can do is publicly repent and stay on as a seminary professor.
But if I'm wrong, I'll treat you all to a Steak n Shake $3.99 meal here in Jacksonville.
WishIhadknown said...
He never said, "If you don't like it, leave" either but his silence was just clear as if he had said it.
Love ya
Wish
May 25, 2010 9:19 AM
I was there the Sunday morning he said: "If you don't like the music maybe you should find yourself another church." And so I did.
Dr.Dog said::::"But if I'm wrong, I'll treat you all to a Steak n Shake $3.99 meal here in Jacksonville.
May 26, 2010 12:20 AM
Dr.Dog I can taste that $3:99 meal already!!
"Who got in trouble? The minister who messed up? NO! The minister who spoke out was roundly reprimanded for saying what needed to be said. The saddest part is he will never do again."
Because of pressure of the monied
powers-that-be.
"He never said, "If you don't like it, leave" either but his silence was just clear as if he had said it."
Oh, but he did say it. I was there the Sunday morning he said: "If you don't like the music then maybe you need to find another church." And I did.
Hey, if FBC Jax just couldn't ignore and leave alone ONE man blogging about them, how do you expect LU to move on from numerous bloggers and media? They can't. Maybe they could call A.C. Soud, Jr. in Jacksonville and he could tell them how to issue resolutions and sign letters. Maybe LU wants to follow FBC Jax's godly counsel and wisdom on changing by-laws, calling people names, (Have Jonathan Falwell call questioners sociopath in the newspaper?) and then have LU call in favors from the local sheriff and state attorney's office. Then maybe they could be defending themselves in two lawsuits too.
Lots of smart guys at FBC Jax can give them the blueprint. :)
Definitely a goner from the presidency of LBTS....and the best he can do is publicly repent and stay on as a seminary professor.
But if I'm wrong, I'll treat you all to a Steak n Shake $3.99 meal here in Jacksonville.
May 26, 2010 12:20 AM
You are dreaming...
At the WORST they will find him another position in another seminary or parachurch org somewhere making same amount or more. That is what they (like minded folks in leadership) have done with Patterson for the last 20 years. That decision might even come later on after they find him not guilty. It is funny how these things work...you gotta follow close. They never want it to look like public opinion made their decision for them but at the same time, they cannot afford not to act.
And it depends on how the students and families paying the bucks to Liberty respond to this.
They would never make a decision based upon pure integrity. But on image.
Cousin Tom, honestly I don't know how you keep putting up with this stuff. You're a good man, Tom. I'm real thankful there are a few like you that will stand up and keep going after these loopy nut-jobs that run the peculiar and strange Southern Baptist Empire. This guy Guthrie really is a Pharisee, and your dissection of his comments so clearly shows just that. So, well done, and let me encourage you to keep standing up for truth. Eventually, guys like this will either kill themselves out of guilt, or they will really change and begin to admit the lies and hypocrisy they SPEW are damaging their inner spirit. One way or another, Guthrie, you'll come clean.
In a court of law, Ergun would NEVER be tried and convicted of ANYTHING! This is the court of public opinion and it is a SHAME that so-called Christian want to string Ergun up and hang him out to dry. Waaaa He stretched the truth....Waaaa...He created a new middle name....Waaaa...me little feelings got hurt because he became a Seminary President and I am just a Sunday School teacher...GROW UP! Everybody can't be the Seminary President and it might as well be someone with a great story and great speaking skills like Ergun. Your jealousy is thicker than the Oil in the Gulf!
Slow to Speak - the real babies crying in all of this are Mac Brunson and A.C. Soud. Waaa - you are criticizing me on your blog. Waaaa - I will show you not to ever criticize me Waaaaaa. I will pass a resolution and shut you down - waaaaaa. I don't like blogs or bloggers that ask tough questions -waaaaaa. You are a coward if you blog anonymously - waaaa. Coward that you are...waaaa.
At least Caner and Liberty aren't responding like arrogant bullies who are just making their actions so much worse by the way they are handling those who dared to ask questions.
Does anyone have a link for the 2002 Associated Press article where Caner said he came to the States in 1969? There's a reference to it here:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_REL_PREACHERS_PAST_TNOL-?SITE=TNDYE&SECTION=STATE&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
but the version cached in Google (and linked to from AOMIN) here:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ovEyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ywgGAAAAIBAJ&pg=6872,1106589&dq=ergun-caner&hl=en
Doesn't mention 1969. Is there a second 2002 AP article? Have I overlooked something obvious?
Everybody can't be the Seminary President and it might as well be someone with a great story and great speaking skills like Ergun. Your jealousy is thicker than the Oil in the Gulf!
May 27, 2010 10:09 PM
1And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
A true believer would never be jealous of Caner but very concerned for his soul and those, like you, he is leading astray thinking that 'stretching the truth' over such a long period is no big deal for those who attempt to preach the Word.
Interesting post. I appreciate your candid thoughts.
I once attended Arlington Baptist Church. You guys are right on target about the behavior you have witnessed online; it is no different for the people there. Talking with Tim is like talking to a wall. He is the authority, and he is unteachable. If you insinuate that he is not right or dare to disagree, he writes you off and parades as a martyr, shaming you the whole time. And again, you nailed it, the venom flows freely, in the name of God's justice, of course. Tim's priorities are Tim being right and Tim gaining power in the SBC. That is what drives him, and he will stop at nothing to protect his pride. That was obvious to me very quickly.
I loved the people there, but couldn't trust what I was hearing was from God. I felt I had no choice but to uproot in order to protect my family from spiritual abuse. It took a long time before I could trust ANY pastor again. I still can't believe how easily that kind of megalomaniac behavior in a pastor can go unchecked in a church. People WANT to support their pastor, and faithful people do not want to appear as gossips or seem to be interfering with advancing the cause of Christ (which is exactly what Tim would accuse them of if they spoke up). All of this has forced me to reexamine my own beliefs about church and the roles a church/other believers would play in my life and my faith. It was a painful process that God graciously brought me through. I suppose I should be thankful that encountering Tim has matured me in my faith, although certainly not in ways he would like to take credit for.
I google that church from time to time to see if the truth has come to light. It will be a relief when it has. Please pray for Arlington and that people's hearts will be protected until something is done.
I find it amazing that Christians will attack other Christians so vehemently over something that does matter. If Caner was preaching blasphemy then I could understand it and would be with you. He preaches anything but blasphemy, he taught classes through Liberty University on how to convert non-believers of multiple faiths including Islam and shows where they are the weakest and why they are wrong.
So you all are saying that because he has changed his time-line he needs to be cast away like garbage. I wonder if he had not been raised by a Muslim father if you would still feel this way? I would be willing to say no and that it would not be an issue. So this is actually an attack based on hatred and not on his time-line. I'm sure that I will be called names too because I am not extreme like most everyone else on here but that is OK. I learned a long time ago that when name calling starts it is because your points cannot be defeated on their merits and all those with childish intellects have let is that.
Actually no one will call you any names because you just posted on an article that is over a year old that no one is reading anymore. The Caner is issue is one that has been covered for over a year by multiple bloggers and even news media so you're arriving late.
You mentioned Liberty - they got rid of Caner over his lies told in pulpits for a decade.
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