On the front page of the Florida Times Union (Jacksonville, Florida), Jeff Brumley has an article entitled "First Coast Ministers Urge Parishioners to Tithe, Even in Hard Times".There is some irony in the timing of this article for residents of Jacksonville. While the paper reports on the front page that pastors are encouraging people to fork over 10% of their money to God during these tough times, the paper has also reported in the last few days of how the city of Jacksonville is going to hike our property taxes by nearly a tithe (9%) to fix the city's financial ills - while simultaneously cutting city services.
The church says "fork it over" because the Bible says so...the city says "fork it over", because, well, we have the right to take it. Amen? Amen!
As I have blogged here on this site over the past year, the doctrine of "storehouse tithing" is one that is not supported in scripture, and in my opinion is often misused by pastors to get people to fork over 10% of their money to their church. Instead of preaching New Testament grace giving, they teach Old Testament tithing.
In the article, Brumley cites an example of Mark Brunnell, the former All-Pro quarterback of the Jacksonville Jaquars, who recently filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy because of some investments gone bad. According to Brumley, even though Brunnell is experiencing "financial woes", he is tithing 10% of his $1.55 million salary to his Jacksonville church.
I think to be fair, readers of Brumley's article should understand just how dedicated the Southern Baptists and other evangelicals are to this doctrine of tithing. It's not just a recommendation, it is a rock-hard, biblical principle that must be adhered to by faithful Christians.
Here are a few examples that Jacksonville readers might be familiar with:
First Baptist pastor Mac Brunson has stated that Christians are absolutely obligated to give at least 10% to be in a right relationship to God and the church - that church members are expected to give a tithe when they become members. Just last fall Brunson has gone so far to say he believes our economy is in shambles precisely BECAUSE Christians are not tithing.
Steve Gaines, pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, has accused his non-tithing members of driving stolen cars, living in stolen homes, and sending their kids to school with stolen money. Gaines also said that tithing may be a requirement even for a person to get up and sing a solo, as he doesn't want "Betty the bank robber warbling for Jesus." Go to the hyperlinks, and hear it for yourself. One more twist: for your tithe to qualify as a biblical "tithe", it must be given "undesignated" to the church, according to Gaines. Ugh.
And there are others. This blog has examined the tithing issue very closely over the past year.
About tithing in difficult times: absolutely Christians should continue to support their churches financially. But it might be shocking to some non-Christians, that Christians would still be giving 10% of their income to their churches while at the same time they can't pay their creditors and must file for protection under the bankruptcy laws.
Is that really the Christian thing to do?
But this is precisely the advice given by Dave Ramsey, one of the premier financial experts and regulars on the evangelical church speaking ciruit, who when asked by a listener if they should reduce their tithe to get out of debt answered:
"No, I wouldn’t stop my tithe. I wouldn’t reduce it. It’s a tenth. I tithed all the way into bankruptcy court and all the way out. These are a loving Father’s instructions for His kids."
I wonder if Mayor John Peyton and the city of Jacksonville will take that excuse when it comes time to pay property taxes:
"Sorry, I had to pay my tithe to the church first. And, oh, I needed to buy my Jaguars season tickets so we can continue to pay our athletes millions each year."
69 comments:
Dave Ramsey is OVER-RATED.
Anon - as requested, here is your post from the previous article:
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Here in Jacksonville, there have been reports on the TV news of a young preacher in his thirties with his own young family, that has a "Jesus Bus" he uses for witnessing all over town. This past Saturday he was out in the extremely hot weather, delivering Vacation Bible School flyers in a part of town, when he was hit by a car as he stepped off the bus. If they are correct, reports at this time say, he is not expected, to live. I know this young man and can tell you that his entire life is centered around telling people about Jesus. His reward will be in Heaven. In thinking about this young man and his life and his precious family, I compaired him to these rich, phony celebrity preachers in this town and all around the country. I wonder how many of these preachers would leave their air conditioned mansions, in their gated communities to do what this young man has done all his life for Jesus? What this says about this young man, and what an indictment against the "phonies" speaks loudly. "Well done good and faithful servant". Matt:25:21&23. Please pray for this precious family.
"But this is precisely the advice given by Dave Ramsey, one of the premier financial experts and regulars on the evangelical church speaking ciruit, who when asked by a listener if they should reduce their tithe to get out of debt answered:
"No, I wouldn’t stop my tithe. I wouldn’t reduce it. It’s a tenth. I tithed all the way into bankruptcy court and all the way out. These are a loving Father’s instructions for His kids."
Well, let's look at this from the pragmatic standpoint. Ramsey is spoken of from pulpits and his seminars take place mainly in churches. He would not dare tell folks to pay their creditors first before they pay the church.
Churches would drop him like a hot potato and he would go broke again. :o) The fact he teaches tithing even though in debt is one reason he is spoken of so highly and promoted by most pastors.
But let's face it. Paying the pastors salary and for the building is unethical when you cannot pay your bills. It is a horrible witness.
Tithing was Old Testament law that we are no longer under.
The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice.
God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33 and gave His ordinances in Numbers 18. No pastor follows God's definition nor His ordinances.
Preaches who say tithing is required today are false teachers. The tithe ended at the cross per Hebrews 7:5,12,18.
Tithing is ok if you are Jewish and 2000 years old, otherwise its just a thing of providing funding for the rich and famous.
As I have said before....
Dave Ramsey's biggest Marketing arena is Churches and these Pastors who give him the stage.
They love his "test - i - monies"
I know CEO's of business organizations who have told their Senior staff that they are going to have to take pay cuts and even some owners who have stopped taking a personal paycheck just to make it through the hard times. Their employee's have great respect as they know the employer is doing everything they can to save the business.
FBCJ is not in the group of churches having a hard time as long as they keep bleeding their budget to pay a Senior Pastor what they do. I believe in tithing, but from the old school, pay the debt I put my signature on. Dave Ramsey is OVER-RATED and
would never have gone bankrupt in the first place if he had lived within his means. He's a rich man today because of his programs he sells to churches.
The article assumes that tithing is biblical. I once again defy anyone to explain to me these three questions I continue to bring up in regards to tithing:
1.) Where does it say, anywhere in the Bible, that Christians are to tithe? (I don't want a history lesson about Jewish traditions either.)
2.) Even if anyone could do #1 above, (no one can), please, please, please, explain to me where in the bible that
"God = Local church budget." In other words, even if I did feel obligated under the OT law to give a tithe of my crops to a Levitical priest...who says the church I happen to attend is standing in for God?
3)(AND THIS MIGHT BE THE TOUGHEST TO ANSWER) Even if my local church is God for purposes of recieving the OT tithe...why should so much of that money be spent on doing nothing but building buildings, paying for utilities, paying staff, renovating auditoriums, etc. and very little if anything, actually going to "God."
Since when are the overhead needs of a local church equal to God? Because really, all you proud tithers, your 10% is not going to God, but is really going to the budget of your local church is it not? Who convinced you of #1 above, then #2 above, and finally #3 above?
The article is based on a false premise. The bible does not teach tithing for Christians. Period. Three hurdles I need help overcoming please:
1.) Where does it say, anywhere, in the OT or NT, that Christians are to tithe. (No "Christians" existed before Christ, correct? So spare me what some Jews did for the Levitical priests and what one guy did with some spoils of war.)
2.) Assuming anyone can show me a biblical requirement to do #1, the second hurdle is even larger. Where does the bible equate the local congregation I show up at once a week to hear music and preaching, become GOD almighty? In other words, suppose I do want to pay 10% to "God", why must I give that money to my local church and not to the YMCA? Is the local church God? If so, I am in big trouble...and so are you.
3.) Suppose I get by the above 2 hurdles above and give 10% of my income to my local church budget. How does that money I gave to "God", end up paying for staff salaries, new building construction, old building renovations, past debt incurred by previous members and leaders, etc.? In other words, how can I rationalize that money I see being spent on the above is actually money I gave to God? Shouldn't money I give "to God" also be spent "by God." Is my church leadership God? Is the building maintenance and utilities God? I mean, really, isn't that who ends up with God's money, not God? The pastors, the bank, the buildings? What about the poor, widow, orphan, needy, sick, etc. How much of "God's money" goes to them and how much to sustain your local church staff and debt and budget?
Please think rationally about these questions. When you give to these places, you (and they) are robbing God.
Anyone? (crickets)
I compaired him to these rich, phony celebrity preachers in this town and all around the country. I wonder how many of these preachers would leave their air conditioned mansions, in their gated communities to do what this young man has done all his life for Jesus?
AMEN, AMEN and AMEN!
For another way Christians might have caused the economic meltdown, check this Atlantic Online article:
"Did Christianity Cause the Crash?"
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/12/did-christianity-cause-the-crash/7764/
If tithing is taught in the bible, why do approximately 90% of Christians admit they do not tithe?
This is a dying tradition with no biblical basis, and unless you were brainwashed to give 10% by your parents when you were a child...you likely know this.
And when your pastor trots out the OT and throws out verses out of context about levitical priests, sacrificial animals with blemishes, first fruits, spoils of war, and your eyes glaze over, you know he can't teach from scriptures that you are obligated in any way to tithe. And when he omits new testament teaching about not giving under compulsion, each as they have purposed in their own hearts, cheerfully, you know he is a fraud and liar.
These preachers that preach tithing are losing credibility fast, not just on issue, but on all other issues to. They have lost their saltiness and now preach only to try and meet operating overhead, get their raises and vacations, and try and renovate and build buildings.
Both the city and the churches have the same problem. Bloated budgets and the reality that it is best to just get more money from the citizens/members to fund it all. Our choice with both is the same: "if we don't like it, we can leave, but just shut up and pay."
Are we supposed to be tithing 10% of our earnings or 10% of our paper assets?
What would happen if a group of believers passionate for their Lord Jesus and people in their community knowing Him agreed together to support their sharing of the gospel locally with whatever means God provided to them for it personally? It sounds just like tithing, but it's really love . . . ? Nothing wrong with that.
In regards to the newspaper comment by the pastor about Brunell's tithing, I had to respond. His comment:
"Brunell's tithing was welcome news to many pastors.
"This is a wonderful example of what the Bible teaches and what we should all be living," said Terry Hill, pastor at The Citadel Church on Atlantic Boulevard. "Because his life is so public, not only will we see the problem but we will also see the blessing that will come from his consistent faith and obedience."
HOW can a minister of God say this is a 'wonderful example of what the Bible teaches'??? If you're stiffing people you owe money to - especially if you turn around and give to a pastor/church/whatever then you're stealing. What about Exodus 20:15 - "thou shalt not steal"? How is Brunell showing obedience by stiffing his creditors, then paying some pastor/church?? If you owe someone, you pay them; otherwise why would God honor your 'tithe' knowing you've not honored your obligation to someone? That just astonishes me, that a minister of God would not only applaud that behavior, but hold it up as something we should all emulate! He would do much better to remind people of Paul's comments in Philippians 4 where he says he has learned to be content in whatever state he is in. If pastors would follow THAT verse we'd see a totally different "church" than what we see today.
Just incredible!
D
William, that article provides much food for thought.
"That just astonishes me, that a minister of God would not only applaud that behavior, but hold it up as something we should all emulate! "
It is like the selling of indulgences the Catholics used to do. Pastor says you are obeying God by tithing even though you are going bankrupt and not paying what you owe others. But you pay the church which one thinks is obeying God when tithing is not even part of the New Covenant!
People believe it. I fear for those who teach this and those who believe it. How spiritually dead the church in America. And how ignorant of scripture are her pastors. Well, in reality it is not the true Body of Christ. That Bride is pure.
Hypothetical: Tim Tebow gets a $15 million dollar contract. He believes he should tithe 10%. So, there is $1.5 million dollars going to "God's work." IF I am Satan (and some of you believe I am :)) would I want the money to go to the budget of FBC Jacksonville to pay for a small percentage of the maintenance of the parking garages and lighthouse and pay for salaries of family who have no real job duties and help pay salaries for staff to travel the world and play expensive golf coures, buy airtime on TV in an already over saturated market, pay Maurilio Amorim; OR, would I prefer he give the money to agencies that do real ministry like the BTEA, Second Harvest food bank, City Rescue mission, Clara White mission, and to plant new churches in areas where there are no churches.
The same hypothetical question for you. Where would Satan want to see your $1000 per month be given? WAKE UP!
I believe Mac Brunson stated in a sermon he never met anyone that tithed that went bankrupt.
Mac, meet Mark Brunell.
Logic 101:
Mark Brunell tithed, he "proved me in this" by giving 10% of his income, he "sowed seed", he expected 100 fold return...
Mark Brunell went bankrupt.
Therefore...you can go bankrupt if you tithe. Preach it, "men of God." Preach it.
Yes, Mark is an example to us all right. An example that even the most sincere, generous Christians can, and do, go bankrupt. So quit preaching the other nonsense. Mark shows you all to be liars.
WD, not much to add, except I was wondering if you were including the almost 10% hike JEA just slapped us with in your news about the city wanting 9% more.
As I have pointed out here numerous times - this is just all part of the looting and rents that will reduce what is left of the middle-clsss to serfdom. I just saw an article yesterday about some group wanting everyone, everywhere (except for the wealthy) to rid themselves of that planetary scourge - the air conditioner. Watch and see - soon it will be just like your water. You will only be able to run your A/C for so many hours at certain times. That's coming. Though there's a good chance they'll (JEA) do that automatically through ever-increasing pricing.
As for the tithing, it's just so stupid. Think I'll stay out of that one.
"and in my opinion is often misused by pastors to get people to fork over 10% of their money to their church."
________________________________
That's the problem, people think it's their money. Everything is God's. He has blessed us with everything we have.
The power company, water company, insurance company, etc....have to be paid. Money doesn't just fall from the sky. All of the ministries have to be supported in some fashion. Where is the money supposed to come from?
All of the ministries have to be supported in some fashion.
Do they? I thought it was God whose work needed done, not "ministries" usurping God's place.
According to the NT, Christian giving is to support the needy among our own, those who have lost livelihood from persecution, the ill or widows without any other means of support, and missionaries who do not have the means to go where the Spirit is leading them.
NOT for buildings, salaries, sound systems, or even Sunday School supplies. Those things can be donated by the wealthy, if we just can't seem to "do Christianity" without them.
Real Christians will not need to be told to give to the needy; they will find a way to help, purely out of love. Tithes, on the other hand, are dues paid to a club, and that is something nobody needs. We can meet together any time, any place, in any number, with any believers, at no cost. And we can all spread the gospel as we go about our daily lives-- without tracts, without guilt, without committees.
I actually welcome a tight economy when it comes to the sorry state of the church today. It will finally take the wind out of the sails of luxury and celebrity, out of the "edifice complex" and mere religion. Most believers apparently can't handle fame or fortune, and God is purifying His Bride.
Bring it on.
Anon 8:59 - actually, Brunson said in more general terms: "he never met anyone who tithed who went broke."
Maybe in the circles he runs that is true.
:)
Re: Paula
I see your point. And I agree that the priority needs to be on reaching people and not building new buildings and so on.
However, if you join a church and that church has a building, then there are inherent costs that you will occur. Just like most people have a home, they have to pay utilities etc...
And God does provide a way. He has given us jobs and the ability to work and the ability to give graciously. Some people believe that 10% is the right way. Some people don't. I'm of the opinion that all I have is HIS anyway.
So how do you reconcile the fact that people want a building to meet in and ministers at their church, and whatever ministries they desire but feel no need to financially support any of it?
"So how do you reconcile the fact that people want a building to meet in and ministers at their church, and whatever ministries they desire but feel no need to financially support any of it?"
It is easy to reconcile: Most do not know anything else.
But are you suggesting they are not welcome if they do not give to maintain the special building. That WOULD make it club dues. How sad. But that is the thinking of many who love their special buildings.
We have had "special buildings" since Constantine turned the pagan temples into churches. It is a simple position of, "we have always done it this way".
In effect, the "special buildings" often turn into a sin problem and take us away from our First Love.
For example, people make much of going to "church". Many think they are saved because they go to the special building every week. It is a duty. And they feel even more sanctified because they help pay for the special building.
The special buildings have caused all kinds of problems for Christianity from the 3rd century on. They are too numerous to go into here but if you think about it, it will be obvious.
But what is even more interesting is that you cannot really make the case that NT model of the assembly met to listen to a sermon by one guy week after week. Most preaching went on OUTSIDE the Ekklesia. (That is one of the sin problems of the special building. That those who assemble there never mature past the paid professional)
So, what did they do when they met in the early church? And how many do you think were meeting in say, Corinth? Or Ephesus? These are great questions to study scripture and look for the answer. Do not answer as you have heard a pastor tell you. Seek for yourself. Use common sense.
Think of Pentecost. Do you think those who were being added daily all stayed in Jerusalem and built a mega church? This is one of the lies that is propagated by many a mega preacher. (Hint: Pentecost happened at Pentecost for a reason)
The paradigm of needing a special building for the Body to meet is one that will not die easily. but it is one that should. So many resources are going into the building and staff that have nothing to do with the Body of Christ. Where does anyone see we should pay someone to worship for us or "lead" us in worship? Where do we see that pastors are "paid" professional Christians? How much is double honor worth these days, if that means pay? Single honor?
Most of the quarrels and divisions come from the "special building" and paid staff. Then, we start to idolize our special buildings and even the paid Christian professional.
What would be interesting is to see what would happen if the special buildings had to be closed. What if we have to give them up? What would happen? I believe Christianity would become vibrant and real to many. I believe many would stop pretending, start studying on their own, mature spiritually and the Bride would at last become pure.
I pray this happens for the sake of many souls.
However, if you join a church and that church has a building, then there are inherent costs that you will occur. Just like most people have a home, they have to pay utilities etc.
I agree... if you join a club, you have to pay your dues. The problem comes in saying that this is what God mandated, and if you fail to support it, you are "robbing God". If the "tither" preachers would just be honest and call this club what it is, I wouldn't have a problem with it. And then they'd have to say how many times a non-member could attend before requiring them to join. See where this leads?
I'm of the opinion that all I have is HIS anyway.
As am I, and every non-tither I know. We give our lives and talents as well. But I might ask you why only one spiritual gift is worthy of employment compensation, while all others must pay this salary plus support themselves. And if this really is all about faith, then why the guilt-lade, finger-pointing, threatening "sermons" about failure to tithe? (I'm not saying you do this, but it is typical.)
So how do you reconcile the fact that people want a building to meet in and ministers at their church, and whatever ministries they desire but feel no need to financially support any of it?
Again, if it's a club, run it like a club and admit that it's a club. People shouldn't join clubs they can't or won't support. But if they are just Christians looking for fellowship, would you force them to join the club?
"So how do you reconcile the fact that people want a building to meet in and ministers at their church, and whatever ministries they desire but feel no need to financially support any of it?"
It is easy to reconcile: Most do not know anything else.
But are you suggesting they are not welcome if they do not give to maintain the special building. That WOULD make it club dues. How sad. But that is the thinking of many who love their special buildings.
We have had "special buildings" since Constantine turned the pagan temples into churches. It is a simple position of, "we have always done it this way".
In effect, the "special buildings" often turn into a sin problem and take us away from our First Love.
For example, people make much of going to "church". Many think they are saved because they go to the special building every week. It is a duty. And they feel even more sanctified because they help pay for the special building.
The special buildings have caused all kinds of problems for Christianity from the 3rd century on. They are too numerous to go into here but if you think about it, it will be obvious.
But what is even more interesting is that you cannot really make the case that NT model of the assembly met to listen to a sermon by one guy week after week. Most preaching went on OUTSIDE the Ekklesia. (That is one of the sin problems of the special building. That those who assemble there never mature past the paid professional)
So, what did they do when they met in the early church? And how many do you think were meeting in say, Corinth? Or Ephesus? These are great questions to study scripture and look for the answer. Do not answer as you have heard a pastor tell you. Seek for yourself. Use common sense.
Think of Pentecost. Do you think those who were being added daily all stayed in Jerusalem and built a mega church? This is one of the lies that is propagated by many a mega preacher. (Hint: Pentecost happened at Pentecost for a reason)
The paradigm of needing a special building for the Body to meet is one that will not die easily. but it is one that should. So many resources are going into the building and staff that have nothing to do with the Body of Christ. Where does anyone see we should pay someone to worship for us or "lead" us in worship? Where do we see that pastors are "paid" professional Christians? How much is double honor worth these days, if that means pay? Single honor?
Most of the quarrels and divisions come from the "special building" and paid staff. Then, we start to idolize our special buildings and even the paid Christian professional.
What would be interesting is to see what would happen if the special buildings had to be closed. What if we have to give them up? What would happen? I believe Christianity would become vibrant and real to many. I believe many would stop pretending, start studying on their own, mature spiritually and the Bride would at last become pure.
I pray this happens for the sake of many souls.
So how do you reconcile the fact that people want a building to meet in and ministers at their church, and whatever ministries they desire but feel no need to financially support any of it?
July 13, 2010 12:13 PM
So, they are not paying their club dues, are they? Kick them out!
In my experience, the only ones who have a problem with tithing are those who don't tithe...
In my experience, the only ones who have a problem with tithing are those who don't tithe...
o.O
Anonymous said...
In my experience, the only ones who have a problem with tithing are those who don't tithe...
July 13, 2010 2:35 PM
Then your experience is too limited. I know many people who do not believe that God requires us to give 10% of our incomes to a local church, but who still do give 10% or more to serve the needs of the body of Christ, mostly through their local church.
Is every church that has a building to meet in and bills to pay as a result of that building, a club?
Unless you meet outside or in a public facility, then you would have bills to pay as a result. If the church met at your house, unless you sit in the dark, you have a light bill and at somepoint had a mortgage. Somebody has to pay for it. What's the best way to do that? Well why don't we all chip in. Not equal gifts but equal sacrifice.
So we give of all that we have, monetarily and using the talents God has given us.
Anonymous said...
In my experience, the only ones who have a problem with tithing are those who don't tithe...
July 13, 2010 2:35 PM
___________________________________
I agree. Me and about 90% of the people in the pews next to you. Keep tithing and keep paying all the overhead for us. :) We'll give our money to God, not to man.
"In my experience, the only ones who have a problem with tithing are those who don't tithe..."
What do you call giving to other believers in need? Or directly supporting a mission family?
If you think about it and are honest, it is most likely you associate "tithing" with a building.
So did the Jews . But the actual tithe for them was about 23%.
I'm of the opinion that all I have is HIS anyway.
___________________________________
I agree. So why do you feel the need to give HIS money to some men to spend down at the church on operations? Give it to HIM, its HIS, not theirs right? Or are you implying that they are GOD and by giving to them you are giving to GOD?
So how do you reconcile the fact that people want a building to meet in and ministers at their church, and whatever ministries they desire but feel no need to financially support any of it?
___________________________________
Kenneth - is the church a business or a ministry? I don't think a ministry charges those they minister to. A business does. A food ministry feeds those in need of ministry, they don't charge them a pro-rata share of overhead expenses. Thankfully, others have been led to fund the ministry. And certainly when it is funded, no need to beat up those being ministered to by trying to get them to pay their fair share for the food they ate at the ministry. Your logic is for secular businesses. Have you or your church actually ever ministered to someone in need. They are not obligated to pay the salaries and overhead of those that voluntary minister to them. What has happened to our churches and good members like yourself to have such twisted thinking?
Somebody explain to me how you give money to GOD? If it's not to much to ask, could you put some scripture references with it.
Anonymous said...
Somebody explain to me how you give money to GOD? If it's not to much to ask, could you put some scripture references with it.
Here are some relevant passages:
Matthew 25:34-40
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'"
1 John 3:16-18
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress...
Somebody explain to me how you give money to GOD? If it's not to much to ask, could you put some scripture references with it.
July 13, 2010 6:47 PM
Very good question. Paul discussed the collection for the Jerusalem church many times throughout the NT. It was for the members of the Body of Christ who were hurting financially due to persecution.
It was given to actual people. Not to a building or some paid Christian professional.
sI suppose I'm a little lost here. What's with the vehement attitude toward biblical tithing? Jesus never repudiated tithing. He castigated the pharisees for doing it with hard hearts, but he didn't throw the baby out with the bath water. If anything Jesus compelled his followers to adopt a new standard of giving, based on generosity, that exceeded and superseded the OT law... much as he did with the OT regulations for murder and adultery. A tithe was not anathema, it was the minimum standard for a new community's attitude toward the possessions God had blessed them with!
If you are not part of a community of faith in which you can be "hyper-tithing generous," you MUST either change your church or bend your will to see your possessions as God sees them. Hopefully you'll see that a lack of generosity is not so much an economic problem (see the story of the widow's mite), as it is a problem with greed!
God bless!
What's with the vehement attitude toward biblical tithing?
We might also ask Paul why he had issues with circumcision.
Jesus never repudiated tithing.
Or sacrifices, or the Jewish festivals, or worship only in Jerusalem, or slavery...
If anything Jesus compelled his followers to adopt a new standard of giving, based on generosity, that exceeded and superseded the OT law...
And nobody is saying otherwise. Over and over we've stressed the attitude of the heart.
A tithe was not anathema, it was the minimum standard for a new community's attitude toward the possessions God had blessed them with!
For the JEWS. Were the Gentiles to tithe? No. And what "new community" was Jesus talking about? He was talking to Jews about Jewish law, not about the church which hadn't started yet. He was sent to the lost sheep of ISRAEL, to turn THEIR hearts back to God. Only after His death and resurrection, and then finally at Pentecost, did the "church" begin.
If you are not part of a community of faith in which you can be "hyper-tithing generous,"
Non-tithers give. And please tell us where the NT equates anything at all in the church to the "storehouse" or that only certain people are "the priesthood", and that we can give money now instead of cattle and crops. Tithes are for temples and Levitical priests; check Hebrews for details.
you MUST either change your church or bend your will to see your possessions as God sees them.
The "church" is not something that can be "changed"; it is what we are. And as already stated but obviously you missed it, we do see everything as God's.
Hopefully you'll see that a lack of generosity...
Hopefully you'll see that a lack of legalism is what Christianity is all about. And be careful of accusing non-tithers of greed.
Paula - amen!!! And very well said!!
D
Anon 5:22
What has happened to our churches and good members like yourself to have such twisted thinking?
____________________________
It's twisted thinking to think that everyone who is able should contribute?
Honestly, I think people don't give because they see money as theirs and not Gods. There is an attitude that they worked for it and why should they give it away. It's a matter of the heart more than anything.
I give to my local church out of obedience to the Lord and because I want to have a place to gather with other believers, hear God's word proclaimed, to be a part of others coming to know Christ and to support missionaries all around the world.
Maybe some of you need to find new churches where you aren't so mad at the preachers.
Then maybe you can see your giving (or lack there of) for what it's supposed to be. An expression of love and worship for a Savior who shed His blood for us.
Thanks D! :-)
I should add the fact that the old argument of Abraham tithing before Moses is no different than the practice of circumcision before Moses, so if tithing is applicable to us because it predates Moses then so it circumcision. Yet everybody knows how Paul railed against the latter.
Well why don't we all chip in. Not equal gifts but equal sacrifice.
So we give of all that we have, monetarily and using the talents God has given us.
___________________________________
This makes sense, but has nothing to do with tithing. See how quickly those that try and defend tithing are forced to change the subject? And by the way, equal sacrifice is not 10% each. The man making $30,000 per month (Brunson?) can easily give $3000 per month and live like a king on the remaining $27,000 per month. But the member making $3000 month, he gives $300 per month and has only $2700 per month left to live. For him, that $300 may be over 50% of his discretionary income, while Brunson's $3000 might not be even 25% of his. So equal sacrifice might be the poorer man giving 3 - 5% while Mac should give $30 - 40%. But you won't hear them advocating that. So why are you doing so?
Now, back to tithing. It is not in the Bible for Christians. Period. Ever. Anywhere.
Junkster - amen and amen! End of discussion. That is how you give "to God!"
anon July 13, 2010 10:48 PM - did your pastor tell you that or are you a pastor. We are not talking about generous NT giving. (Clearly taught and modeled in the Bible, the recipients being the body of Christ, (fellow believers in need) and poor, orphans, widows, etc.) We are talking about tithing, which pastors say we are obligated to do, non-designated, or we are robbing God and under a curse. (given to them to spend as they please, to the rich, for buildings, etc.)
Teach members to give generously and trust God. Do NOT teach the lie of tithing. That makes you lose all credibility on every other issue. Stop it.
This entire thread seems to be a justification for "sanctified" greed... and flaunting how little you can give to the local church. In any other area of life you would be called moochers or free loaders. After all, as Paula says, "If it quacks like a duck..."
This entire thread seems to be a justification for "sanctified" greed... and flaunting how little you can give to the local church. In any other area of life you would be called moochers or free loaders. After all, as Paula says, "If it quacks like a duck..."
July 14, 2010 9:32 AM
Ah, another anon who knows my "history", eh? Very interesting.
And willingly blind to all that's been said so far. We who do not believe the NT teaches tithing or any other form of legalistic control, advocate clearly and relentlessly that Christians should give from the heart, generously and selflessly.
Tithing is for Pharisees.
This entire thread seems to be a justification for "sanctified" greed... and flaunting how little you can give to the local church. In any other area of life you would be called moochers or free loaders. After all, as Paula says, "If it quacks like a duck..."
July 14, 2010 9:32 AM
Actually, the wealthy who only give 10% are greedy according to your standards. The tithe was about 23% total.
You purposely misuse Paula's post for some nefarious reason. Perhaps her biblical understanding intimidates you. And all you know how to do is insult in return. We see a lot of that sort of thing in the SBC these days.
"sI suppose I'm a little lost here. What's with the vehement attitude toward biblical tithing? Jesus never repudiated tithing."
You do not understand "tithing" and equate it with NT offerings. It is what you were taught so you cannot see the difference.
Read up on the OT tithe system. It is more like a tax for maintaining the Theocratic government system that was the Temple. It was actual total of about 23%. (BTW: Levite priests were not allowed to own land...so making the parallel to pastors today would be interesting for some, eh?)
Do you think converts in Phillipi were required to give Lydia 10% of their income to upkeep her home where the church met?
Most people cannot seperate giving from a "special building" becuse they have been taught that for so long.
This is too bad because the Body suffers for it since so many are in need and we care more about new carpet than we do those who need help like a single mom in the Body who needs brakes on her car but cannot afford it.
There is nothing sadder than insistent ignorance. It is why we constantly beg people to study and stop only listening to pastors who have a vested interest in you believing in a tithe system.
"If you are not part of a community of faith in which you can be "hyper-tithing generous," you MUST either change your church or bend your will to see your possessions as God sees them. Hopefully you'll see that a lack of generosity is not so much an economic problem (see the story of the widow's mite), as it is a problem with greed!"
And you cannot see you have the opposite problem. You think you are holy and obedient for tithing your paltry 10% to prop up some building that does not Glorify God.
My experience with those who understand the tithing system of the OT and the generous giving of the NC are the most generous people around. But, you would not know it unless you are close to them because they take Matthew 6 very seriously.
That is why calling others greedy who do not believe in the 10% (It was actually 23%)actually makes you look greedy for so little.
Note how tithing always comes down to legalistic arguments.
Galatians 5:3-4
Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
What applies to circumcision also applies to tithing and everything else. Therefore, scripture teaches that those who teach and advocate tithing have fallen from grace.
oooh... 'nefarious!' Now that is a fifty-cent word!
Because I am a little simple and slow (without the apparent erudition of my esteemed colleagues on this site), I must ask this question...
Are we upset that churches teach tithing, or are we upset that some churches 'misuse' tithes...?
oooh... 'erudition!' Now that is a fifty-cent word!
Are we upset that churches teach tithing, or are we upset that some churches 'misuse' tithes...?
Can't you figure it out from the comments in this thread?
Anonymous, I am upset that pastors teach that tithing is required by God in the Christian Church.
When they quote Malachi 3:8-10 they are telling you that you are still under the law of tithing.
If pastors can't get tithing right, how can I believe anything else they say?
I give to my local church out of obedience to the Lord
___________________________________
Really - where does the Lord say to do that?
And I love this gem: "Then maybe you can see your giving (or lack there of) for what it's supposed to be. An expression of love and worship for a Savior who shed His blood for us."
__________________________________
Where in the Bible does my giving to my local church budget have ANY, ANY, ONE IOTA of bearing on my love and worship for my Savior?!!!
This is cultish! If you really love Jesus, you will give a lot of money to this church budget! What, don't you love Jesus?
Yes, I love Jesus so much I am not giving YOU and YOUR BUDGET one dime of HIS money. HE died for me, I love HIM, it is all HIS. Therefore, church budget of salaries, buildings and nonsense, YOU get nothing!
In any other area of life you would be called moochers or free loaders.
___________________________________
I agree. In any OTHER area of life. But I would say the same for the "executive pastor" and the "missions director" when the church already has a "senior pastor" for example. Aren't these staff members moochers and free loaders on the ministry and budget of someone else? The church is a ministry, funded by generous Christians, to minister to others. How dare they call those that are ministered to moochers or free loaders. I am beginning to see the real heart of some so called tithers. It IS about the money to you isn't it.
"Are we upset that churches teach tithing, or are we upset that some churches 'misuse' tithes...?"
There is no "tithe" in the NC. And teaching 10% is a joke. If they are going to be under the law, why not teach 23%? Seriously, why not?
I understand why so many believe in a tithe system. It has been drilled into their heads from SS on. They cannot wrap their heads around the fact they believed something that was not true or that those wonderful people would teach them something that was not for the NC. But they believed the same as you and did not study or question it.
It is time to be Bereans. Your offerings and generosity in the Name of Jesus Christ to other believers, missionaries or even unbelievers is also a witness. Done in the spirit of Matthew 6, it can be great encouragement for the Body of Christ.
When they took up a collection for the Jerusalem belivers who were suffering, Paul did not have to pay the light bill or a mortgage on a building first. He simply had it taken to the believers who needed it.
Anon July 14, 2010 8:03 PM,
That is an excellent point. If some are "ministers" then others are "the ministered to". Can we really say that the latter are to PAY for this? Isn't Christian giving so that the "ministers" can serve a third party? That is, we should pay "ministers" to serve someone who isn't able to pay. Therefore, those who pay are not being ministered to but buying a product.
I love this... believing that tithing is an applicable biblical principle for modern believers means I'm a legalist and that I've fallen from grace!
Dang, I knew I should have taken that right turn at Albequerque and become an antinomian after all... I could have claimed Christ's Lordship without any tangible obedience, without dying to myself, taking up my cross, and following Him... plus I would have had more money in my pocket without having to worry about that pesky little local church the Bible talks so much about ruining my life!!!
Before I switch sides, however, I have a few questions...
When I quit tithing to my local church, who am I going to give my generosity to?
When Jesus said, "Upon this rock, I will build my parachurch organization," which one was he talking about?
On what street corner can I join you to hand out my "tithe" checks to the homeless?
Which missionaries can I support, because I certainly don't wanna support anyone who might be building one of those "church thingies" that the legalists (indigenous and abroad) might tithe to?
Who's gonna hold me accountable for my giving?
Can I still attend church and sing "Showers of Blessing" and smirk at those legalistic fools who believe such nonsense?
If the message at church is about tithing, do I walk out during Malachi 3:8, 3:9, or 3:10.
Can I just shout out "HERETIC" when the pastor says, "Please open your Bibles to the Old Testament this morning..." PLEASE TELL ME I CAN DO THAT!!!
I'm eagerly awaiting your response!!!
Before I waste any more time on a mocker, I have a few statements:
1-- It is Paul, not I, who said legalists have fallen from grace.
2-- This same "antinomian" Paul said we do not have a license to sin.
3-- Living a holy life has ZERO to do with legalism.
4-- To give from the heart is the only legitimate way to give.
5-- "Under compulsion" is what tithing is.
6-- Give to the needy. Directly. Not the pampered and entitled.
7-- Can't find them? Where on earth do you live?
8-- Want accountability? Try the Holy Spirit!
9-- Must I shout "UNCLEAN!" when I pass a tither on the street?
10-- I eagerly await your mockery. But I might not humor you with acknowledging your imagined wit.
Are we there yet, Daddy?
Your questions below show that you can only think of church as a "special building".
"When I quit tithing to my local church, who am I going to give my generosity to?"
Your question here shows that you do not understand what IS the Body of Christ.
"When Jesus said, "Upon this rock, I will build my parachurch organization," which one was he talking about?"
Do you think "rock" meant building materials for a church?
"On what street corner can I join you to hand out my "tithe" checks to the homeless? "
It would be more like handing out grain and livestock.
"Which missionaries can I support, because I certainly don't wanna support anyone who might be building one of those "church thingies" that the legalists (indigenous and abroad) might tithe to?"
You do not know any missionaries personally to support with your money? That is sad.
"Who's gonna hold me accountable for my giving?"
The Holy Spirit
"Can I still attend church and sing "Showers of Blessing" and smirk at those legalistic fools who believe such nonsense?"
This also shows a hardness of heart in addition to a lack of understanding.
"If the message at church is about tithing, do I walk out during Malachi 3:8, 3:9, or 3:10."
You should be a Berean so you can understand it for yourself.
"Can I just shout out "HERETIC" when the pastor says, "Please open your Bibles to the Old Testament this morning..." PLEASE TELL ME I CAN DO THAT!!!"
Why would you want to do that? Do you not understand the OC points to Jesus Christ? Or do you think of your pastor as a Levite Priest?
Okay I'll bite..troll. My responses in Bold, not to yell, but for ease of reading:
Before I switch sides, however, I have a few questions...
THERE ARE NO SIDES HERE. GROW UP. SEEK GOD AND FOLLOW HIM. NO NEED TO IDENTIFY, POLARIZE AND TAKE SIDES.
When I quit tithing to my local church, who am I going to give my generosity to?
GIVE IT TO GOD. CHEERFULLY, NOT UNDER COMPULSION, AS YOU HAVE DETERMINED IN YOUR HEART. JUST MAKE SURE WHOEVER YOU GIVE IT TO DOESN'T HOARD IT FOR THEIR OWN OPERATIONS NEED AND NONE OF IT GETS TO REAL MINISTRY.
When Jesus said, "Upon this rock, I will build my parachurch organization," which one was he talking about?
HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE CHURCH UNIVERSAL. NOT THE BUILDING AND STAFF AND OPERATIONS OF THE CHURCH BUILDING WHERE CHRISTIANS MEET TO SING AND HEAR A SERMON. I WOULD SUGGEST YOU GIVE IT TO YOUR SUNDAY SCHOOL CLASS. THEY WON'T PAY ANY SALARIES OR SPEND IT ALL ON OVERHEAD AND THEY LIKELY KNOW SOMEONE IN NEED WHO WILL PRAISE GOD FOR THE GENEROUS HELP.
On what street corner can I join you to hand out my "tithe" checks to the homeless?
WHICHEVER ONE YOU SEE THE MOST NEED. AGAIN, MAKE SURE WHOEVER YOU GIVE THE MONEY TO, THEY DON'T HOARD IT AND SQUANDER IT ON THEMSELVES FOR NON-ESSENTIALS LIKE BIG SALARIES, BUILDINGS, FANCY CARS, BIG VACATIONS. I WOULD SUGGEST YOU GIVE IT TO SOMEONE WHO WILL BUY FOOD WITH IT, OR GIVE IT TO HELP OTHERS. IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO BE A HOMELESS PERSON. MAYBE A WIDOW, SINGLE MOM, UNEMPLOYED MAN, ETC.
Which missionaries can I support, because I certainly don't wanna support anyone who might be building one of those "church thingies" that the legalists (indigenous and abroad) might tithe to?
SUPPORT MISSIONARIES WHO WILL USE YOUR GIFT TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL, NOT MAINTAIN BUILDINGS AND OVERHEAD. SOME IN MEXICO CAN SEND A NON-SAVED YOUTH TO CAMP FOR JUST $5.00.
Who's gonna hold me accountable for my giving?
YOUR BIBLE AND YOUR CONSCIOUS AND YOUR COMMON SENSE AND THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT LIVES WITHIN YOU. GIVE TO BENNY HINN MINISTRIES FOR JET FUEL OR TO THE CITY RESCUE MISSION FOR FOOD FOR THE HUNGRY. I WILL LET YOU MAKE THAT CALL.
Can I still attend church and sing "Showers of Blessing" and smirk at those legalistic fools who believe such nonsense?
YES YOU CAN SING WHAT YOU WANT. NO ONE HERE HAS SAID YOU ARE REQUIRED TO SMIRK AT ANYONE. WHERE IS THAT IDEA COMING FROM? SOME ISSUES YOU HAVE?
If the message at church is about tithing, do I walk out during Malachi 3:8, 3:9, or 3:10.
NO. STAY AND LISTEN CAREFULLY TO HOW THE PREACHER TRIES TO APPLY GRAINS GIVEN TO LEVITICAL PRIESTS SO THERE WOULD BE FOOD IN THE TEMPLE FOOD STOREHOUSE TO YOU GIVING CASH TO THE NT CHURCH BUDGET. WATCH HIM TWIST AND SQUIRM TRYING TO DO SO.
Can I just shout out "HERETIC" when the pastor says, "Please open your Bibles to the Old Testament this morning..." PLEASE TELL ME I CAN DO THAT!!!
IF YOU ARE A WOMAN, I WOULDN'T SHOUT ANYTHING OUT. THE OT PASSAGE MAY BE ABOUT WOMEN REMAINING SILENT IN THE CHURCH AND IF THEY HAVE QUESTIONS TO ASK THEIR HUSBAND. MAKE SURE YOUR HAIR IS COVERED AND YOU HAVE NO MAKE-UP OR JEWELRY ON TOO DEPENDING ON WHICH OT VERSE HE IS GOING TO EXEGETE.
I'm eagerly awaiting your response!!!
I AM EAGERLY AWAITING A CHANGE IN YOUR ATTITUDE AND HEART.
Signed, GG
Okay I'll bite..troll. My responses in Bold, not to yell, but for ease of reading:
Before I switch sides, however, I have a few questions...
THERE ARE NO SIDES HERE. GROW UP. SEEK GOD AND FOLLOW HIM. NO NEED TO IDENTIFY, POLARIZE AND TAKE SIDES.
When I quit tithing to my local church, who am I going to give my generosity to?
GIVE IT TO GOD. CHEERFULLY, NOT UNDER COMPULSION, AS YOU HAVE DETERMINED IN YOUR HEART. JUST MAKE SURE WHOEVER YOU GIVE IT TO DOESN'T HOARD IT FOR THEIR OWN OPERATIONS NEED AND NONE OF IT GETS TO REAL MINISTRY.
When Jesus said, "Upon this rock, I will build my parachurch organization," which one was he talking about?
HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE CHURCH UNIVERSAL. NOT THE BUILDING AND STAFF AND OPERATIONS OF THE CHURCH BUILDING WHERE CHRISTIANS MEET TO SING AND HEAR A SERMON. I WOULD SUGGEST YOU GIVE IT TO YOUR SUNDAY SCHOOL CLASS. THEY WON'T PAY ANY SALARIES OR SPEND IT ALL ON OVERHEAD AND THEY LIKELY KNOW SOMEONE IN NEED WHO WILL PRAISE GOD FOR THE GENEROUS HELP.
On what street corner can I join you to hand out my "tithe" checks to the homeless?
WHICHEVER ONE YOU SEE THE MOST NEED. AGAIN, MAKE SURE WHOEVER YOU GIVE THE MONEY TO, THEY DON'T HOARD IT AND SQUANDER IT ON THEMSELVES FOR NON-ESSENTIALS LIKE BIG SALARIES, BUILDINGS, FANCY CARS, BIG VACATIONS. I WOULD SUGGEST YOU GIVE IT TO SOMEONE WHO WILL BUY FOOD WITH IT, OR GIVE IT TO HELP OTHERS. IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO BE A HOMELESS PERSON. MAYBE A WIDOW, SINGLE MOM, UNEMPLOYED MAN, ETC.
Which missionaries can I support, because I certainly don't wanna support anyone who might be building one of those "church thingies" that the legalists (indigenous and abroad) might tithe to?
SUPPORT MISSIONARIES WHO WILL USE YOUR GIFT TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL, NOT MAINTAIN BUILDINGS AND OVERHEAD. SOME IN MEXICO CAN SEND A NON-SAVED YOUTH TO CAMP FOR JUST $5.00.
Who's gonna hold me accountable for my giving?
YOUR BIBLE AND YOUR CONSCIOUS AND YOUR COMMON SENSE AND THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT LIVES WITHIN YOU. GIVE TO BENNY HINN MINISTRIES FOR JET FUEL OR TO THE CITY RESCUE MISSION FOR FOOD FOR THE HUNGRY. I WILL LET YOU MAKE THAT CALL.
Can I still attend church and sing "Showers of Blessing" and smirk at those legalistic fools who believe such nonsense?
YES YOU CAN SING WHAT YOU WANT. NO ONE HERE HAS SAID YOU ARE REQUIRED TO SMIRK AT ANYONE. WHERE IS THAT IDEA COMING FROM? SOME ISSUES YOU HAVE?
If the message at church is about tithing, do I walk out during Malachi 3:8, 3:9, or 3:10.
NO. STAY AND LISTEN CAREFULLY TO HOW THE PREACHER TRIES TO APPLY GRAINS GIVEN TO LEVITICAL PRIESTS SO THERE WOULD BE FOOD IN THE TEMPLE FOOD STOREHOUSE TO YOU GIVING CASH TO THE NT CHURCH BUDGET. WATCH HIM TWIST AND SQUIRM TRYING TO DO SO.
Can I just shout out "HERETIC" when the pastor says, "Please open your Bibles to the Old Testament this morning..." PLEASE TELL ME I CAN DO THAT!!!
IF YOU ARE A WOMAN, I WOULDN'T SHOUT ANYTHING OUT. THE OT PASSAGE MAY BE ABOUT WOMEN REMAINING SILENT IN THE CHURCH AND IF THEY HAVE QUESTIONS TO ASK THEIR HUSBAND. MAKE SURE YOUR HAIR IS COVERED AND YOU HAVE NO MAKE-UP OR JEWELRY ON TOO DEPENDING ON WHICH OT VERSE HE IS GOING TO EXEGETE.
I'm eagerly awaiting your response!!!
I AM EAGERLY AWAITING A CHANGE IN YOUR ATTITUDE AND HEART.
I find it odd that you had no problem with storehouse tithing when men that you liked and admired (Lindsay, Jr and Vines) were your pastors. But Brunson, whom you have some legitimate complaints with) comes along and all of a sudden you now have a problem with storehouse tithing.
To be fair, you have now gone on the record and stated that you think that Lindsay, Jr and Vines were/are wrong on this issue (at least you are consistent). But yet you continue to hold them (especially Lindsay, Jr) in high esteem (see the post that follows this one), as you should. But if they were misleading you or worse lying to you on this issue, why would you do that?
July 16, 2010 11:16 PM - good question, I will try to give you my thoughts on this. It is my opinion that Dr. Lindsay knew that you were not "obligated to tithe" when you joined the church. I think he sincerely believed that God used the OT tithe as an example that could be taught to the people in the church today as a way of funding God's work instead of having bake sales, preaching on giving every month, and beating the sheep and guilting them into giving. He preached an emphasis one time a year on giving and the tithe was a way God financed the work. The people did it, and the church was miraculous. I feel the same way about the Chest of Joash once a year. Homer, Jr. knew it was not a commandment, but it was a great example of what the Jews did in the OT, and he used it as a way to raise revenue in the church. I don't see anything wrong with that. He also taught abstinence and called social drinkers jerks and drunks. He had no Bible for that, but he sincerely believed that, set that example of abstinence in his life, and taught it to his flock out of love. And he lived a life that gave no one any reason to question his motives for teaching people to tithe and give offerings. It was not so he could a life of luxury, pay his family to work at the church and build his brand.
As for Vines, he is no longer held in near the esteem that Homer, Jr. is. But he simply kept in place what Homer, Jr. had been led of God to lead the church into. Nothing more. Vines exploited the big budget too, in later years, in my opinion, but that was not your question.
And finally, just because someone disagrees with me on this issue doesn't mean I have a problem with them. I have a problem with using the money to pay family members' salary and benefits, promoting your personal brand, hiring Maurilio, producing commercials to play during a sermon for the family of a man that gave you a $307,000 land gift, etc.
I hope this helps answer your question.
GG
GG: I have just read your blog. You hit the nail on the head. Perfect answer. This is what I think also. Lindsay led because he "believed" what he said. If he was wrong he didn't know it. Everyone else followed. They followed because he had personal integrity. Tithing is definitely OT. Lindsay had always been taught and believed it applied to the NT church, so he taught it. The difference is he was not promoting himself or his family. Lindsay was all about JESUS, but he was SINCERELY about JESUS. Not posing in order to make money for himself. When he died I think integrity left with him. Ditto re your comments on Vines.
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