"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Tuesday, August 25, 2009

BREAKING NEWS: Bad Economy is God's Judgment for Non-Tithing Christians!!

Mac has taken his doctrine of "storehouse tithing" to a new level.

According to Mac, God is apparently punishing us for not tithing.

We need to fork over 10% of our income to our churches, and then God will get us out of this economic recession.

Mac is now saying that our extended economic recession is the result of Christians not forking over 10% of their income to their church.

Here is Mac's quote from his Sunday service on 8/23/09:

"Have you ever stopped to think that this whole economic mess in America is not really the cause of Wall Street or the cause of the White House or the cause of Congress, but it might be an act of God on this nation? Would you agree with that, that this very well may be the judgement of God on this nation - the economic difficulty?

Let me give you one that you're not gonna amen:

Have you ever thought that the reason God's put us in an economic difficulty in this nation is because God's people won't prove him with their tithe? Well, more of you amened it than I thought. But I guarantee you somebody's not going to like it. I'm not so sure we're not in the situation we're in because God's people WILL not prove God with the tithe."

There you have it! The solution to our economic woes is right there.

The only person that could make such a ridiculous statement is someone who is out of touch with the suffering this economic recession has wrought on innocent people, even Christians. Recessions in America hurt people and families - it even reaches to developed countries as aid goes down. Its not a stretch to say that people die in developing countries as the result of economic recession in America.

And Mac blames it all on Christians who don't believe his storehouse tithing doctrine. God is exacting a punishment because Christians aren't forking over 10% of their incomes to their mega church to support the lavish lifestyle of their pastors.

That is shameful, and its a blight on the Southern Baptist Convention, and an embarrassment to the city of Jacksonville for such nonsense to be coming forth from the pulpit of FBC Jacksonville.

Did I just say that?

You better believe I did.

241 comments:

1 – 200 of 241   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

I believe the correct answer is "If my people who are called by my name shall humble themselves, then I will hear from heaven and heal their land". Humility not giving money is the answer.

Anonymous said...

It looks like the Reverend Mac Brunson has gone into Jeremiah Wright land.

But on the bright side the choir was just wonderful this Sunday. I love the song Jesus Paid It All.

Anonymous said...

May I be the first to give you an "Amen" for your post. Isn't it interesting how the problems with the modern day church always seem to revolve around money?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Yes, Jesus Paid it All.

Although Jesus did pay it ALL, he still has to punish us because we're not complying with the tradition of "storehouse tithing". Jesus did pay it all, but He still must punish America and the world (the entire world is in economic recession) with economic calamity.

"Jesus Paid it All, But We Must Fork Over 10%"

Mac is the history expert...isn't this what the "indulgences" were in Martin Luther's time? The church telling people they are suffering because they aren't giving money to the church?

Anonymous said...

Mac's theology is a little weak but then so is your desire to stretch everything you hear to cover something Mac has done or didn't do. Both of you would flunk Preaching 101.

Anonymous said...

Theologically, "ouch." It is not a money issue the reason we have a problem. I have not heard the whole sermon. A church that size should have it online. I will go and listen.

Chris

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Chris - you'll have to get it from I-tunes for now. Later in the week you can watch and listen in full color when they post it to the church 316 archive.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

No wonder Christians are so "persecuted" in America, as Mac preached Sunday.

My stars, if all that has to happen for God to remove his "judgment" on us is that Christians need to fork over 10% of their income to FBC Jax and other churches, then we ARE to be scored and ridiculed and persecuted. How DARE we hurt our fellow countrymen who are not believers by holding back the 10% tithe from God!

The only thing missing from the sermon was:

"America's chickens....are coming home....to roost."

Truth Purveyor said...

Tom,"Now there you go again!" I was there and I new that you would try and spin it to meet you needs.

Listen to it again. He did not make the empirical statement as you are trying to spin.

He said it in a form of questioning; perhaps? and not "it is!

But just like those on the left, of which I think you are demonstrating more and more, you and others will spin it the way you wish to make your point. That is your right, and I do not disagree about that.

As far as your other leftest comments about Jacksonville's Republican mayor raising taxes, perhaps you have forgotten how that for almost twenty years taxes went down under the "republican" mayors and not up.

Personally, I like you and many others do wish that governments, and even churches, would live within their means, but I can assure you that no one even saw this economic disaster coming as hard as it did.

Sincerely,


T

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Truth Purveyor - we read each other well. I knew you would come and defend Mac's indefensible statement. And I was ready for it. You see, this is not the only time Mac has spoken on such matters of God's involvement in our economic disaster.

So you don't like me using that quote, because Mac wasn't sure, he was just suggesting that MAYBE it is God's punishment.

Well, Mac said last year, September 2008 I believe, that he WAS sure it was God doing all thsi to us. In fact, Mac was so sure that Mac actually spoke FOR GOD, in the first person, telling us how God did all of this to us as punishment.

I quote, after Mac layed out the cause of our current diaster starting at the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal, through 9/11, and Hurricane Katrina:

"...an entire city [New Orleans] is wiped out. How much louder does the voice of God have to get to America? We end up in an oil crisis where families can't afford to put $4 a gallon gas in their cars and make ends meet, and now this past week we've had the largest drop on the Wall Street in its 112 year history and I wanna tell ya, THAT has finally gotten people's attention. You think God hasn't been actively doing something? [Now, speaking for God] God says 'I've been active all this time. I've been active putting into place all these things. I've been actively seeing how high I can get gasoline for you Americans. I've been actively seeing how I can cause the economy to crash, because if you will not turn to me in my blessing on you, I will take them away as Hosea took away the blessings of Gomer."

Some come on Truth Purveyor.

Its abundantly clear.

Mac Brunson believes our "crashing economy" is the result of God's own hand. In that sermon I just quoted, Mac presumes to speak first-person for God himself, that God ACTIVELY worked to get high gas prices and wreck the economy.

Open your eyes, pal.

Or did I take it out of context?

Don't believe he said it? Listen here.

Sorry Truth, but I think Obama did a better job of defending Jeremiah Wright than you are of defending Mac Brunson.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

And good call out of the SBC playbook, TP. Accuse people who disagree with you as being "liberal". That is so old, its ridiculous.

No, its your staunch defense of the indefensible, that seems liberal to me.

HAH!

An Observer said...

Why does is not surprise me that you can't bring yourself to move on?

Something is wrong with you psychologically. You are somehow attached to Mac Brunson so much so that you can't even stop talking about him after you leave his church.

Seriously, step outside of the box for a second and look at yourself, and this blog.

I have no problem with you blogging about the SBC in general and the things you don't agree with in the SBC, but to constantly harp on one man......is just ridiculous!

You are a sociopath. Clearly, you are. Sue me, I don't care. This obsessive compulsive issue you have with Mac Brunson is obsurd.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Thank you, Observer, for your psychoanalysis.

Again, proves the harm in a high-profile preacher telling newspapers that one of their former church members is a sociopath...there are gullible people who will believe it.

Now, since you are a blog reader, back to the topic: what do YOU think? God is punishing us all because Christians aren't tithing?

Anonymous said...

Yeah the world economic collapse is because we are not putting 10% of our income into Mac's bank account!!!!!! OKAY Jim Bakker, I mean, Kenneth Copeland, er Benny Hinn, oops sorry I meant Joel Ostenn, AAHH I got it now, make that OKAY MAC BRUNSON!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Not surprising at all....... These kinds of messages have been preached now for awhile by many within the Baptist Mafia.

At least he has not preached a sermon like Mike Everson, the former Pastor of Prays Mill Baptist who is now a "consultant" for the Georgia Baptist Convention in South Ga, did several years ago.

The title of his message?
" The Church has been Robbed"

He made the church think there was an actual armed robbery!

It was all about the money those who he did not think gave enough.

I guess he thought 63% of the offering given for 3 minister men salaries and four office personnel was not enough.

....or maybe MAC's shadow Mike can compare and share sermon notes from each other so MAC can preach his version of "The Church has been Robbed"

An Observer said...

FBC Jax Watchdog,

Whether or not Mac Brunson called you a sociopath in a public newspaper does not diminish the fact you are blogging like one.
Mac Brunson could have kept his mouth shut and people would still think you are obsessed with him because you continually blog about him.
I'm not gullible, I'm making an observation. You are clearly obsessed with Mac Brunson.

Do I think the U.S. economy is in bad shape because Christians may not be tithing? No. In our capitallistic democracy, we experience inflation and recession. It's cyclical and it's all part of the economic cycle. However, I do think churchs are suffering because members are not giving as much due to the current economy.

Johnny D. said...

Let's put blame where blame belongs. The reasons we're in this economic crisis are really quite simple: the terribly destructive monetary policy of the FED, and our own greed have led us to this fix we find ourselves in. It has nothing to do with "God" or judgement. We have a bubble economy because of the FED and their insane interest rate policies, and because thousands of greedy bankers and mortgage brokers packaged sub-prime loans as prime loans and then sold them as securities. And we "the people" do share in the blame - we definitely do. How many of you took advantage of the bubble economy and refinanced and bought Harleys, granite countertops, swimming pools, cruise vacations, on and on, etc? We've got nobody to blame but ourselves. We tolerate the FED, and we keep electing the same moronic politicians over and over again.

So, Mac is not only trying his usual guilt tactic, he's also leading people away from the real truth that this crisis was caused by the person you see in the mirror each morning, but for the entirely wrong reason of this ridiculous notion that one must give 10% of one's income to a church.

Again I ask, if this portion of the OT is applicable to this supposed NT era, why not the rest? Again I ask, if you're bringing a tithe, are you bringing your wine and produce into the church? Why is the NT tithe always just money?

And I have news for those of you that believe the Ben Bernanke/Obama/Geithner BS: this DEPRESSION is just getting started. There is much more to come. Mac thinks giving is down now? Just wait. You won't much recognize this country in a couple of years.

Anonymous said...

What kind of bogus teaching is that??? WE don't PROVE God!!!! What the heck??? I just can't believe what I am hearing. Mac is a total FALSE TEACHER.

Anonymous said...

Of course this belief of Brunson, that non-giving Christians are causing the economy crash, is consistent with his harping on tithing.

He's trying to get his church members to tithe - not to raise money for the church, but to save America!

What a Patriot!

"Save America: Tithe to Your Local Baptist Church"

Anonymous said...

This stuff is so typical blame everyone but themselves. It's also pure HOGWASH. Wish I could make scapegoats out of others when I have problems.

Anonymous said...

Personally, I think Mac and others in the SBC have turned liberal. They are using pages out of the same playbook: Blame it on the people for being selfish not to willingly turn over their money to them....who know best.

Then, by sneaky methods, get information on those who disagree with them publicly.

Same tactics as the liberal playbook. It all comes back to an intellectual elite who think they know best for us. Or pastors who think only God speaks to them.

Yes, can you say Benny Hinn? Kenneth Copeland, Rob Parsley.

Mac: The remnant is too smart to keep propping up the grand buildings, big salaries, consultants and programs. They know it has nothing to do with Christ, The work of the Holy Spirit in Justification or Sanctification.


You will have to continue beating the ones who do not get it yet. And they might not ever get it and that will be to your advantage. But then, your reward is here and now. (Matt 6)

Anonymous said...

And I have news for those of you that believe the Ben Bernanke/Obama/Geithner BS: this DEPRESSION is just getting started. There is much more to come. Mac thinks giving is down now? Just wait. You won't much recognize this country in a couple of years.

August 25, 2009 3:15 PM

Johnny, they are all worried. The entire SBC convention was this focus...get more bodies in the church quick. Have more kids. Get married younger, etc. Brag about baptisms, numbers joining, etc.

Can someone explain to me how numbers measure righteousness?

Desperation is setting in. Those big salary jobs at the entities are in danger.

Anonymous said...

I feel sorry for the guys trying to defend Mac's sermons on tithing. You have to be blind not to see the wolf at work in that place.

When it gets bad enough, expect Mac to announce he has taken a cut in pay. But don't expect to ever see the actual figures to prove it. You will be asked to take the leadership's word for it.

Johnny D. said...

"Johnny, they are all worried. The entire SBC convention was this focus...get more bodies in the church quick. Have more kids. Get married younger, etc. Brag about baptisms, numbers joining, etc."

Since you bring it up here, let me ask you Baptists something. What is with the baptism hang-up? I'm thinking it is a numbers game. Let me explain.

For a brief time we attended a large Baptist church here on Jacksonville's Westside. After months of attending, we eventually decided to make the place our church home. At the invitation time, we went down front and were paraded on the big stage, and then sent into the back for our "indoctrination."

A representative sat us at a table and slipped an information packet our way across the table while saying, "So, you're saved. Good. Come back to this evening's service and get baptized.

Me: Thanks for the offer, but my wife and I have both been baptized.

Baptist: But were you baptized by immersion?

Me: Yes.

Baptist: Well, we need you to come back this evening and be baptized here at our church.

Me: Why? I've already been baptized.

Baptist: Well, it needs to be believer's baptism here in our church.

Me: Huh? Look, I was baptized by a Christian Missionary Alliance preacher, and I assure he did it right, and that I was believing.

Baptist: Well, we think it would show your obedience to our pastor.

Me: Huh? You're scaring me.

To make a long story short, as this conversation continued on with my refusal to be baptized again, the information packet he pushed our way across the table was being slowly withdrawn back his way. Basically, I told him we would not come back, and that he had just blown my entire view of their church into some sort of weird, legalistic monster. I was not about to yoke myself with their legalism.

So, what is that about? It's gotta be a numbers game. Are the numbers of baptisms reported to the head-honchos? Does a large week-to-week number get more prestige within the convention? More money out of the convention?

Anyhow, I don't wanna argue - this is Tom's blog afterall.

I didn't really meant to tell it, but that is pretty much my Baptist story. I never went back to another Baptist church after that.

Anonymous said...

Maybe more people would tithe in this country, and thereby avoid a recession, if preachers could show them from the Bible where it is even remotely mentioned that they are to do so.

Or maybe since it is not in the Bible, and Mac knows this, he can get them to tithe by just telling them maybe they are having to endure a recession because they are not tithing. That might scare them.

Of course, a correcting real estate market and high unemployment have nothing to do with it. Just people not tithing.

If Mac really believes the Bible teaches this, then why is he not "preaching the whole counsel of God" to his people. Why resort to speculation about the economy when he could simply preach the word? Shameless.

Anonymous said...

Listen to it again. He did not make the empirical statement as you are trying to spin.

He said it in a form of questioning; perhaps? and not "it is!
___________________________________

Hey Truth Purveyor - "perhaps" you are a demon possessed pedophile? Not saying empirically that you are, just wondering if that is why you support mac?

Truth Purveyor said...

Tom, apologies are in order from me based on how you received my remarks. I was not attempting to paint you as a liberal. Left of conservative, but certainly not liberal.

As for all of the anon's out there continuing to call Tom a sociopath, how about not using that ridiculous term which is totally uncalled for.

As far as God's judgment on the things of this world, he has already judged it in the terms of eternity and the blood of Jesus has covered it all.

If ever preacher in America, and the world states that certain events are God ordained for the sins of the fathers who cares. Somethings God allows and other things He directly ordains. None of us know which it is.

If Mac, Keith, Rod, Joel, etc. honestly believe that judgment has fallen on America for whatever reason, that is their right to honestly believe it, just as is yours or my right to disagree.

Seems to me I heard the same thing from the Lindseys and the Vines, along with the Criswells and the Stanleys, etc. As a matter of fact, the same strong feelings on what God has and is doing within humanity has been preached for centuries.

The great thing about free will is that we can believe what we wish. If it does not line up with Scripture, God's view of His word, and not ours then that is our choice. But along with choice comes consequences.

Tom, back to defending Mac. I am not trying to defend him as much as I wish everyone would not try to spin things to match their opinions. But as human nature is, that is what humans do.

I am not a Republican or a Democrat. I am conservative in my thoughts based on my understanding of Scripture and not what any preacher says.

Sincerely,


T

Jon L. Estes said...

WOW, I never considered God would not bring difficulty (judgment, correction, tough times...) to our world or the church or His people because we, His children, were disobedient to His word.

That's a relief. Thanks for sharing this with us Tom.

Anonymous said...

"What kind of bogus teaching is that??? WE don't PROVE God!!!! What the heck??? I just can't believe what I am hearing. Mac is a total FALSE TEACHER."

Malachi 3:10 would disagree.

Former FBC Insider said...

If JESUS really paid it all...
then why do preachers/pastors have to beg for ANYTHING??

Is our GOD not enough?

Or have the preachers/pastors mishandled what JESUS gave them to support that ministry??

People, PLEASE?!!

Anonymous said...

I feel sorry for the guys trying to defend Mac's sermons on tithing. You have to be blind not to see the wolf at work in that place.

When it gets bad enough, expect Mac to announce he has taken a cut in pay. But don't expect to ever see the actual figures to prove it. You will be asked to take the leadership's word for it.

August 25, 2009 4:11 PM

==================================

When Dr. Vines left, the budget was already down - he knew the time was right for him to move on.

There will be cuts but doubt if it starts at the top and yes, we will have to take the leadership's word.

Budget spreadships are given in bulk numbers per departments.

"Storehouse Tithing" is still being done at FBC but being redirected by some to other deserving ministries who don't earn 6 figures in salaries and travels the world in the pretense of doing "mission work."

Perhaps the real reason for starting a new campus at Ponte Vedra Beach was more about bringing in money to the Bank of First Baptist.

It should not surprise anyone that a lot of the "old school" folks have very good financial managment skills and for sure they are not blind.

As another observer stated there must be something wrong with all of us psychologically because we come on here and blog. That's okay - my choice!

Former FBC Insider said...

'Listen to it again. He did not make the empirical statement as you are trying to spin.

He said it in a form of questioning; perhaps? and not "it is!'

And TP, why would he say that UNLESS he was trying to make a statement?
An empirical statement as a spin?

"Personally, I like you and many others do wish that governments, and even churches, would live within their means, but I can assure you that no one even saw this economic disaster coming as hard as it did."

So Mad Mac still has the gall to soak up all he can from his flock.

Even HE cannot live within his own means, spend his committed dollars to their own budget, and even Mad Mac will allow this economic disaster to hit his own congregation as hard as it will.

So sad.
Such a shame.

TP, just keep on giving.
Mac is counting on it.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

3,000 babies are being aborted everyday in the U.S.!

Homosexuals are demanding rights and redefining what Biblical marriage is!

The truth of the Bible is being abandoned or perverted!

Animals rights are being promoted over human life!

The nuclear family is being redefined and destroyed!

False religions are proliferating thru out the country!

The using of the Name of Jesus in prayer causes offense!

The programs and movies made in Hollywood(Hellywood)are nothing but pervertion and un-watchable!

But what will really bring God's judgment on America is that Christians are'nt "tithing"!


"GIVE ME A BREAK"!!!

Dr.Dog Mac is unbelievable!!!

D r Who said...

At least he did not blame the bloggers, YET.

I have heard others say this though.

Bet it is coming.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Truth Purveyor....again, nice try.

Sorry, Vines and Lindsay did not accuse their church members of ruining America's economy.

If non-tithing Christians are the reason God has wrecked our economy, that means Mac, the generous tither that he is, is a patriot, and those who might not tithe, for whatever reason (they may be stingy, they may be in debt, they may not agree with Mac on storehouse tithing), they are destroyers of the economy for their disobedience.

That, sir, was never preached from the pulpit of FBC Jax until Mac came on the scene.

You and the others down there can spin it any way you can, try to soft-sell it, but that is heretical, abusive preaching - in my humble opinion.

And an embarrassment to the city of Jacksonville, that it is coming forth from the largest church in our city.

Thanks for asking people not to call me a sociopath, but they can't help it. They've learned well from Mac. If they believe I'm a sociopath, then they'll also "amen" when Mac tells them those nasty non-tithers are to blame for our failing economy.

I wonder if they are going to be teaching economics down at FBA....hopefully Mac will teach that, and they don't have to get into macroeconomic theories of recessions, inflation, money supply, etc...for that class they can just show Mac's sermons on tithing, and macroeconomics can all be boiled that down to: Tithe, Christian and the economy will be great! We could make some new economic theory charts...% of tithers on the vertical axis, GDP growth on the x-axis....sheesh....

Russell Earl Kelly said...

Rebuttal of Pastor Mac Brunson, FBC Jacksonville, Fl on Tithing,
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2009/08/breaking-news-bad-economy-is-gods.html 8/23/09 edited

Brunson: "Have you ever stopped to think that this whole economic mess in America is not really the cause of Wall Street or the cause of the White House or the cause of Congress, but it might be an act of God on this nation? Would you agree with that, that this very well may be the judgment of God on this nation - the economic difficulty?

Kelly: Our national economic problems are the result of SIN. Sinful greedy politicians, stock brokers, bankers and real estate promoters ignored common sense in encouraging low income families to purchase Adjustable Rate Mortgages which they defaulted on when the rates went up.

Brunson: Let me give you one that you're not gonna amen: Have you ever thought that the reason God's put us in an economic difficulty in this nation is because God's people won't prove him with their tithe?

Kelly: If "God's people" is a reference to New Covenant Christians, then the answer is definitely NOT! Or should I say "No, you educated idiot!" Do you have an advance degree from a seminary? Did you not learn that the Church is under the New Covenant? Did you not learn that the Old Covenant was never made with the Church or Gentiles? Did you not read in Hebrews 8:13 that the Old Covenant VANISHED over 2000 years ago? Did you not read that the statute/ordinance of tithing was ANNULLED per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18? Do you own property in violation of Numbers 18?

Brunson: Well, more of you amened it than I thought.

Kelly: Many of the sheep who are being fleeced the most think that God owes them salvation because they have purchased it.

Brunson: But I guarantee you somebody's not going to like it.

Kelly: I, for one, do not like what you are inferring. And I, for one, would dearly love an extended detailed dialog with you or with any other SBC leader on the doctrine of tithing. I demonstrate from your own SBC web site that Baptist Confessions of Faith did not even include tithing texts until 1963.

Brunson: I'm not so sure we're not in the situation we're in because God's people WILL not prove God with the tithe."

Kelly: The whole Law was a test --not merely tithing-- and you very well know that I am correct!!! Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. Nehemiah's audience asked God to curse them for violating the Old Covenant in Neh 10:29 and Malachi reminds us of the entire covenant in Mal 4:4. Your hermeneutics are upside down and totally indefensible. Paul had you in mind when he called your doctrine "witchcraft" in Galatians 3:1 and said that anybody trying to earn God's blessings because of obedience to only one part of the law as seriously mistaken in Gal 3:10-13. Why do you promote the 3:10 of Malachi and ignore the 3:10 of Galatians? Do you have an agenda?

You may forward this challenge to Mac Brunson for me.

Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com

Anonymous said...

Jesus paid it all;
all to Mac I owe.
Come and just give ten percent,
be wash├Ęd white as snow!

Anonymous said...

"Kelly: The whole Law was a test --not merely tithing-- and you very well know that I am correct!!! Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. Nehemiah's audience asked God to curse them for violating the Old Covenant in Neh 10:29 and Malachi reminds us of the entire covenant in Mal 4:4. Your hermeneutics are upside down and totally indefensible. Paul had you in mind when he called your doctrine "witchcraft" in Galatians 3:1 and said that anybody trying to earn God's blessings because of obedience to only one part of the law as seriously mistaken in Gal 3:10-13. Why do you promote the 3:10 of Malachi and ignore the 3:10 of Galatians? Do you have an agenda?"

"You may forward this challenge to Mac Brunson for me.

Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com



Dr.Kelly the day when Mac would dare challenge you; will be the day that hell HAS ICE SICKLES!

Mac would never challenge a Christian with deep Scriptural knowledge because he would be shown to be the defective theologian that he is!

Mac's only interest is to keep the unsuspecting sheeple in the dark while he shears(FLEECES)them for every bit of wool(money)he can get off of them!

As the soldier in the movie Predator said;


"MAC I SEE YOU"

Anonymous said...

Pastor Rod H. & Pastor Kelly...Great comments! I cannot understand how one would really try to sell this "stuff" to intelligent people. It's almost an insult. This is one of the weakest arguments I have ever heard on why one "must" tithe. And I have heard them for years. This sermon was aimed at a group with no spiritual discernment, and a penchant to easily accept guilt. How do bible believers with true bible knowledge sit still for this type of badgering. I would have had to groan very loud or leave, had I been present during this performance. One would probably have very low self esteem and no bible knowledge, not to mention a somewhat low IQ level to accept the blame of not tithing as an excuse for our nations plight. If this is the best argument presented, then the pastor didn't make his case.

To teach that gentiles in the New Testament church must tithe and that it is required of them, is to teach a false doctrine!!!! Works vs. Grace.

Anonymous said...

WOW, I never considered God would not bring difficulty (judgment, correction, tough times...) to our world or the church or His people because we, His children, were disobedient to His word.

That's a relief. Thanks for sharing this with us Tom.

August 25, 2009 5:44 PM

Hey Look! Another arrogant sarcastic pastor! They are everywhere!

Of course, Jon is probably preaching the same message at his church trying to get more money. After all, that is all they know how to do, live off others.

Lord, bring us more bivocational pastors who have a clue about your Word and offerings.

Anonymous said...

I recently told a political conservative fundraiser to never call me ever again until ministers like Mac bleed their own reserve first. Such ministers have some nerve when they have nonprofit status. They have hardended conscience to the Spirit of God and only have myopic perspective of the Scriptures while neglecting the panoramic view of the cross passages. In currently reading Dr. Russell Kelly's book on tithing and the Levite tribe owning nothing in order to live of it, the owner of this blog should read it if he has not.

Anonymous said...

Putting aside the excellent tithing exegsis Brother Kelly has given, lets ask ourselves about the notion that God is punishing America because of lack of 'tithes'.

(His comment about 'proving God'makes me shake with fear for him.)

1. Is Mac teaching the membersof FBCJax that Jesus Christ, our Holy Savior, wants bigger, more exquisite churches? That Jesus Christ wants better sound systems? Wealthier pastors and church growth consultants? (what ever happened to the Holy Spirit?)

2. If our economic problems are due to lack of tithes then why is the underground church in China (that meets in homes) growing so strong? They are not using offerings to build buildings and pay high salaries to staffers. They have no staffers.


3. Mac is connecting dots that do not exist. He is creating false
doctrine out of thin air. That is a false teacher. A wolf. Beware all you who sit under his teaching.

If Charles Stanley or any other celebrity pastor is preaching this, they are all wrong. And they all represent what is so wrong with the visible church in America. If those precious misguided souls who are sitting in the pews would only seek the kingdom first, prayer and study, calling on the Holy Spirit to teach them, they would know this is wrong.

Matt

Anonymous said...

"Since you bring it up here, let me ask you Baptists something. What is with the baptism hang-up? I'm thinking it is a numbers game. Let me explain."

JohnnyD, You were so right to walk away from that pit of legalism.

Yessir, it is a numbers game. And it is an insult to our Savior and what Baptism respresents to force you to a 'do-over' immersion in order to become a member.

I keep hearing this sort of thing is going on quite a bit. Perhaps they are becoming Campellites who believe salvation only comes from Baptism and some Baptists are adding a twist that it only comes when done in their local church. But no, that cannot be it. Must be the numbers they can report to look good.

Matt

Anonymous said...

I wonder if the Great Depression of 1929 could have been avoided just by the citizenry tithing? Although, 25% of the workforce was unemployed at the time and could not tithe since they were eating at soup kitchens, at their neighbors, work programs, hobo areas, or anywhere they could find something to eat just to exist. Sure is something to consider especially if you are a history buff!!!

I do not recall, from reading, John Maynard Keynes or any other true economist of that period making such a case. I guess it is pure fancy. I suggest a closer review of the Wage Fund Theory, Supply/Demand Curve Analogy, Classical Economic Theory, and Neo-Classical Economic Theory before one could put forth an argument so riddled with holes that an Army tank could pass through. Just my interpretation of economics 101,201,301, and 401 and in particular Intermediate Economic Theory within a Competitive Market environment whether elastic or non-elastic during periods of high unemployment with little if any price control. So much for the secular side of this tithing argument. Guess what, it isn't taught in the New Testament either!!!!

Thy Peace said...

There is one important reason that Southern Baptist Churches (some of them) insist on re-baptizing. Southern Baptists as per recent IMB insisting of its missionaries to sign a document that recognizes only missionaries that have been baptized in a Southern Baptist Church. All others have been terminated as missionaries. Is this a requirement of BFM2000?

For further reading, please check this out:
Grace and Truth to You [Pastor Wade Burleson] > Label Baptism Posts.

Anonymous said...

I think if I were caught between whether to tithe or not tithe (which I am NOT), I think the fact that a pastor uses a PR firm, is in a convention that advocates using "pastor coachs", to help the pastor prepare sermon series, (which is, in my opinion, the work of the Holy Spirit, through prayer and bible study), this might make me lean toward NOT tithing.

Anonymous said...

Thank you, Matt, Bro. Rod and Dr. Kelly for your obviously studied and insightful comments. And thank you Watchdog for having the courage to continue with this blog. My prayer is that more will read and learn and grow through it. Although ignorance is bliss and moving on is difficult, life really is okay after FBC.

Anonymous said...

Mac and the other mega-church nobility are so out of touch it is painful to watch. Mac is not alone in attempting to keep his church under the Law, and this is not a new tactic for him or many other church leaders. When times get strained, they automatically revert to the law to exact guilt upon their congregations. They just can't help it. Shameless.

Unfortunately I agree that we have only just begun to see some very bad economic times in our nation. I believe we have also only seen the tip of an iceberg of very bad behavior from mega-church leadership. When the six figure, gated-community lifestyles are truly in jeopardy you will see the true natures emerge. Strap yourselves in it could be bumpy. But in the end, much of the dysfunction around us will be purged.

Thy Peace said...

The Wartburg Watch > FBC Jacksonville + Mac Brunson > MAC BRUNSON AND THE KLOUDA CONTROVERSY.
Tom Rich invited Dr. Sheri Klouda to provide a response to Mac Brunson's lie as well as the lies told by Paige Patterson, and it is the topic of the Watchdog's July 17, 2008 post, which can also be found at the above link. PLEASE READ IT! Perhaps the most stunning revelation of all in the Klouda controversy is that Mac Brunson was Sheri Klouda's pastor at First Baptist Church in Dallas.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

There were 3 tithes in the Old Testamemt that the Israelites were required to give.
So the Hebrew population that could give were required to give at least 23% of their harvest to the Levites to support them because they inherited no land,
too fund their great feast as required and ordered by God.

And thirdly to support the disavantaged who included widows,orphans,strangers and the poor!!!

And these three tithes did'nt include the free will offering which was optional giving!

Now can anyone of you tell me what we've have here in Mac?

A millionaire pastor threatening the average giver that God is judging them and America because they are not giving 0ne of three tithes.

This is beyond bad exegsis;
This is flat out dishonesty!!!

How much of Mac's 6 figure salary plus benefits(including his wife)is he donating to the widows,orphans,strangers and the poor of the Church?

Answer::probably "NONE"!!!


It cost a lot I guess to drive two expensive auto's,live in a million dollar house,wear expensive clothes,travel the world,etc,etc...

And God knows in these depress times the Sheep sure don't need a raise or a job according to Mac,because they would'nt know what to do with it anyway!!!


"WORSE AND WORSE" the Apostle Paul said men like Brunson would get "WORSE AND WORSE"[2Tim.3:13]!!!

"OPEN YOUR EYE'S PEOPLE"!!!

Anonymous said...

Wait a minute - how come we the have to thank God we didn't get a raise because we would just drive ourselves further into debt - according to Mac; BUT he can openly pan-handle from the pulpit because he obviously can't live within his outrageously large budget? How come he (and the church) gets the raise and we don't? And how come we get blasted from the him for the way we live and how we spend our money, but he gets a pass. You're terrible Mac!

Anonymous said...

Matt and Anon 11:45 PM NAILED IT. Man, that was good reading!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Here is a TV news piece with snippets of an interview with Sheri Klouda.

Gets you mad all over again.

Anonymous said...

Whince! Whince!

The "Teen Choir" young people were told they could plan on taking a trip to to Argentia next year to do "street mission" if their parents all can find employment and can afford to send them.

Personally I'm tired of hearing the OVERUSE of the word "critize" and "complainers" - it is repeated over and over along with finger pointing, feet stomping and scolding!

The growing theme of overusing the word "Critize" and "Complainers" is getting old, as well as finger pointing, scolding and the famous word "Now Listen" is being injected more and more into the sermons these days.

Johnny D. said...

Matt, thanks for your response. I did not mention how we were visited at home a couple times by folks belonging to that church. They tried to lure us back, and again they stated how it was just a small token and nothing to be alarmed over. "It's just showing obedience to the pastor" seemed to be the main point.

Again I told them how my wife and were both baptized.

And so there is no doubt in anyone's mind here, I was put in front of the church in the baptismal with the man that was my pastor at that time, and he asked me if I confess the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior. I responded that I did, and at that time, I truly did believe that. He then dunked me under the water and said, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit."

Truth Purveyor said...

I for one am tired of all the banter back and forth in regards to Stewardship and the vernacular in which it is presented. Some say "tithe" others say "joyful giving" and others call it just plain stewardship. Whatever!

All of the folks complaining about "beating up the sheep" on the use of the word tithing are the same ones that sit back and JOYFULLY GIVE TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT an average of 14% of their income and say not one word about it.

And yet will come here and beat folks up that wish to call what they give a tithe. What a joke.

The reality is that most folks that attend a Sunday morning service NEVER show up again until the following Sunday.

The TRUTH is that church going Americans give less than 1% of their gross income.

How shallow is our faith when we JOYFULLY let the feds make us give over 14% of our income and then we complain about giving to our churches less than 1%.

Come quickly, Lord Jesus and save us from ourselves.


Sincerely,

T

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Me too, T.

Here's an idea.

Let's just let each person give what he/she purposes in their heart to give, and let them do it cheerfully, and let God handle the matter of finances.

Hey, that might even be in the bible somewhere.

In short, let the pastors trust God, as they are preaching to the congregation to trust God.

No threats, no brow-beating. No complaining and whining about giving units, no ridiculous assumptions about how God is punishing the world through a deep recession because Aunt Sally is ONLY giving 3%.

And definitely no marketing schemes to raise money through selling of indulgences to Christian ministries.

Anonymous said...

"It cost a lot I guess to drive two expensive auto's,live in a million dollar house,wear expensive clothes,travel the world,etc,etc..."

And you can also add in kicking down tons of cash to the offspring and their new families so that they don't ever have to live below what they've been accustomed to.

Anonymous said...

Let me suggest that bad things happen whenever pastors step outside the area of expertise and start speaking with the same authority that they have regarding spiritual matters and the Word.

Whether it's economics, science, medicine, accounting, international relations, or some other topic, the pastor's level of knowledge is usually no better than what was in last week's Newsweek.

There are certainly spiritual issues involved in economics that the pastor can tackle with gusto.

But connecting economic trends (recession, depression) with the level of tithing is not a wise thing.

There have been depressions and recessions in this world since the beginning of time. There is a cycle in economics, most people realize.

People, all people, have a tendency to be materialistic and selfish. That will preach today and every day until the end of the age.

And God does bless people every day, and in special, miraculous ways from time to time. Other times, He does apparently withhold His blessing, for reasons we do not always know.

However, the prophetic declaration that current economic are or may be due to certain behaviors is guessing. It would be o.k. if were suggested as such - a guess. And I would not even go there because even a guess by a pastor is taken as an assertion by some who hear. But if a guess is expressed with any certainty, that is not a good thing to do. Also, it can reduce the credibility of the speaker in the eyes of many listening.

Louis

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

The problem T.P.lies in the fact when one demands and commands a believer to give a set amount based on flawed exegsis of the O.T.Law therein lies the problem.

If Mac wants to go Old Test.then he needs to preach that a believer is "required" and "responsible" to give 23% of his income or all three tithes and nothing less!

Anyway T.P.tithing was the form of income tax in the theocracy which was Israel.

No tithing and the government which was run by the Levites using God's Law collapsed.

In our system of government which is democracy not a theocracy the income tax is comparable to Israel 3 tithes.

But there was also a freewill offering that was voluntary not optional.Which is what we who are N.T. and dead to the Law operate under!

2Cor.9:6-9 clearly describes the responsibilty of the New Test.Believer.

Grace giving does not relieve the believer from the responsibility of giving,but actually enhances and challenges him to give,because the amount he gives reveals the condition of his heart.

The more he loves Christ in his heart the more he desires to give and God will reward him bountifully

If he does'nt love or has little love and faith in God then he will give sparingly and also reap sparingly!

But in 2Cor.9:6-9 grace and responsiblity meet.The N.T.believer can freely give without legality,threat or coercion,and the church has the necessary funds to operate.

That's unless you have a hireling at the helm who distorts the Scriptures and brow beat the believer with non-existing threats that God's wrath is upon him if he does'nt give at least 10%!

Conclusion T.P.is that when Christ gave His Life he set us free from the Law.
Not to live a life of sin:
But to joyfully bring Glory to His Name.
But when listening to Mac fallious arguments only puts the believer back into the bondage of the tithe and the Law.

If the Son therefore shall make you free,you shall be free indeed[John 8:36]!!!!

Anonymous said...

I fully concur with Louis assessment above. Nicely done. I don't know why some of you are so mean to him. Lie Purveyor is much worthier of your wrath.

Truth Purveyor said...

August 26, 2009 11:35 AM says:

"Lie Purveyor is much worthier of your wrath."

Go ahead anon, throw the attorney under the bus.

Oh, by the way; "You can't handle the truth!!!!!"


Sincerely,


T

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"However, the prophetic declaration that current economic are or may be due to certain behaviors is guessing. It would be o.k. if were suggested as such - a guess."

Louis

August 26, 2009 10:58

Louis we all can be assured that nothing happens in this world unless God allows it!!!

With that said we can search the O.T.and see many examples of God judging Gentile nations and even Israel for their moral and ethical trangressions!

If God chastened Israel for their many offenses,you can believe that God is one day going(if He isn't already)judge America and the World for their offenses.

As a matter of fact that's exactly what the Bible says will happen anyway both Old and New Test.(Book of Revelation)!

But for Mac to say that God is judging America solely because believers are not tithing is beyond rational!

As a matter of fact the majority of people in America are not true believers anyway and John wrote that "He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does'nt believe on the Son will not see life; but God's "WRATH" remains on him"[John 3:36]!!!

The U.S.A.is in trouble with God;
But you can believe it isn't over tithing!!!

Anonymous said...

"People, all people, have a tendency to be materialistic and selfish. That will preach today and every day until the end of the age."

Sermons that mega church pastors should stay away from altogether.

"And God does bless people every day, and in special, miraculous ways from time to time. Other times, He does apparently withhold His blessing, for reasons we do not always know."

Material blessings? Or spiritual blessings?

That word, 'blessings' has a tendancy to be abused quite a bit. 'Life abundantly' means spiritual abundance in whatever circumstances we are in.

Material gain can be a curse as it can easily derail sanctification.

Lots of prosperity gospel thinking in many quarters of christianity these days. In some parts of the world, material blessing is a cow.

Anonymous said...

no Lie Purveyor - YOU can't handle the truth. (nor can you crack-back with anything better than tired, old, cliched Hollywood movie one-liners).

Anonymous said...

The other problem with Mac's sermon besides the ones outlines here is that the NT church was not giving tithes but offerings and they were giving them to OTHER BELIEVERS who needed help.

Not to build big buildings and maintain them. Nor for big salaries for pastors.

The bottomline is that Mac cannot teach what is in the NC about offerings because it would not serve him and grand buildings and programs.

Truth Purveyor said...

Come on August 26, 2009 12:37 PM;

Is that all that you have. Some attorney must have taken you to the cleaners. Such hatred in your heart.

Whether you believe it or not some us us DO know the difference between LIE and TRUTH. That is why I do not practice family law. There is too much lying on both sides.

Why not come out of the shadows and at least create something other than ANON! Speaking of lies, anyone can post as anon and it could be numbers of folks.



Sincerely,


T

Anonymous said...

Think on this, American is the birthplace of just about every heresy of Christianity that is spread throughout the world.

You can start with the prosperity gospel.

If anything, giving TOO much money for buildings, salaries, programs and consultants is more likely to bring the judgement of God.

Anonymous said...

The Mac followers need to listen to some Paul Washer. He preaches that false prophets are the judgement of God on wicked people and even though they have knowledge of God, they do not 'want Him'. They make up the God they want and worship that god. So, God sends them teachers they desire.

Mac is teaching them a works Gospel. They think they can control God as in earning His pleasure by 'tithing' that is not even in the NC!

Russell Earl Kelly said...

T: I for one am tired of all the banter back and forth in regards to Stewardship and the vernacular in which it is presented.

Kelly: The vernacular is extremely important. Aren't you a lawyer? If a bus hit you, would you say that you were hit by a scooter? President Clinton said that Southern Baptists did not include oral sex as a sex act, therefore he was telling the truth about Monica.

T: Some say "tithe" others say "joyful giving" and others call it just plain stewardship. Whatever!

Kelly: "Whatever my foot!" This comment proves to me that you are not interesting in using biblical terms correctly. Let us call hell the grave; let us call Israel the Church; let us use the word "law" to only mean the Ten Commandments. Call something what it is. Tithes were always only food from inside Israel. Period. It never became money, income or anything grown outside of Israel. You would not dare use this "whatever" argument in court.

T: All of the folks complaining about "beating up the sheep" on the use of the word tithing are the same ones that sit back and JOYFULLY GIVE TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT an average of 14% of their income and say not one word about it.

Kelly: The Federal Government will take their share at the point of a gun. According to the OT statute of tithing in Numbers 18 (1) Levitical tithes first went to the Levite SERVANTS to the priests who did all of the menial work, (2) Levites gave one per cent (a tenth of a tenth) to the priests, (3) only elite priests could enter the sanctuary, (4) priests were to KILL anybody who dared to worship God directly and (5) Levites and priests were not allowed to inherit property inside Israel. Why do not tithe-teachers obey any of their own tithing statute?

T: And yet will come here and beat folks up that wish to call what they give a tithe. What a joke.

Kelly: A joke??? Do you call "justification" "sanctification"? Do you make the New Covenant EQUAL to the Old Covenant? Do you ignore the doctrine of the priesthood of believers in order to elevate a false elite hierarchy in the Church? Do you and works of law to grace and incur Paul's charge of "bewitched" in Galatians 3:1? The JOKE is that the so-call "church organization" does not look like the church from AD 33 to AD 325 at all. It's hierarch looks more like the papacy.

T: The reality is that most folks that attend a Sunday morning service NEVER show up again until the following Sunday. The TRUTH is that church going Americans give less than 1% of their gross income.

Kelly: True, but what is the CAUSE? The SBC Encyclopedia on tithing admits that the early US Baptists did not teach tithing because they were too busy with evangelism!!! When tithing sermons are replaced with sermons on personal evangelism and hell-fire, perhaps things will reverse. More and more sermons on tithing only push people out of church because they feel unaccepted, inadequate and cursed.

T: How shallow is our faith when we JOYFULLY let the feds make us give over 14% of our income and then we complain about giving to our churches less than 1%.

Kelly: The equality principle of 2nd Corinthians 8:12-15 means that many should give much more than 10% but it also means that many are giving sacrificially even though much less than 10%. Our churches are run by a hierarchy of the wealthy in direct opposition to James, chapter 2.

T: Come quickly, Lord Jesus and save us from ourselves.

Kelly: Come quickly Lord Jesus. You will need eternity to correct our false doctrines.

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id105.html

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

Not all about music but copyrighted material DMCA conflicts ...

Blogger Buzz > Let the Music Play.
Earlier this year, a number of our users complained about their experience on the receiving end of a DMCA complaint. Much commentary at the time focused on claims that we were removing blog posts at the behest of music labels, that we were not notifying users, and that we weren't providing users with any recourse if they were linking to the music with permission. Though we noted at the time that we hadn't changed anything and were still following our documented policy, we realized that there was room for improvement. Over the next several months, we talked with the Electronic Frontier Foundation and ChillingEffects.org, and reached out to a number of users to find out what they'd like to see in our policy moving forward. We're happy to make those changes our latest birthday present for our users.

Anonymous said...

I remember Dr Lindsay Jr telling the congregation to take a sheet of paper and write down 100 things that God blessed them with. Examples: your eyes, your mobility, freedom, speech, taste, touch, wife, husband, children, water, etc, etc. Blessings are in abundance, however some people just don't think about them except when they lose them.

Johnny D. said...

Great link, Watchdog. I'm referring to the Klouda vid link.

Thank you.

I had heard of this situation through your earlier posts here, and I had seen some of her side of the story in the print media, but this vid with her interview was much more compelling.

Anonymous said...

Do these mega churches have large freezer rooms to store the meat and silos to store the grain? If not then its not a true tithe!!!

Junkster said...

Don't know if this has already been mentioned, but her's an update related to the previous post:

Outed Blogger to Sue Google for $15 Million

Anonymous said...

Hey Russell Earl Kelly, PHD...did you know you are doing the work of SATAN!? According to Mac Brunson, "anyone who trys to tell you not to tithe is doing the work of Satan." Perhaps the WD can post a link to it.

Interesting that John McArthur is invited to speak at FBCJ, yet according to Mac he is doing the work of Satan.

Amazing hypocrisy by Mac and yet good Christian folks still go there and still give "God's Money" to Mac and Maurilio instead of to the naked, poor and hungry and widows and orphans.

Anonymous said...

I would love to see Bill Maher or Bill O'Reilly get Mac Brunson on their show to defend some of his statements. Mac's bullying and ridiculous statements are not only non-biblical, they are outright indefensible in the public arena.

Our faith is a "reasonable" one and it should carry the day in the arena of public discourse. Mac's teachings only carry the day with his devoted worshippers, his family, the gullible, and the unregenerate who have no real relationship with Christ. If you don't fit one of those categories, please let us know why YOU are still going there and still giving there.

Thy Peace said...

NYT > Stung by the Perfect Sting by Maureen Dowd.
Once she had the e-mail address, Cohen discovered whence the smears: a cafe society acquaintance named Rosemary Port, a pretty 29-year-old Fashion Institute of Technology student.

Cohen called and forgave Port, but did not get an apology. She had her lawyer, Steve Wagner, drop her defamation suit. But now Port says she’ll file a $15 million suit against Google for giving her up.

Port contends that if Cohen hadn’t sued, hardly anyone would have seen the blog. (If a skank falls in the forest and no one hears it ... ?)

Anonymous said...

Mr Kelly - Thank God for you!

Thy Peace said...

The Wartburg Watch > CONTINUING ON THE PROBLEMS AT FBC JAX > WHAT IS TRUTH?.
When Pontius Pilate interrogated Jesus before the crucifixion, Jesus boldly proclaimed: "Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." (John 18:37). Then Pilate asked the all important question: "What is truth?"

We are asking the very same question. Judging from the recent behavior of leaders who led the Conservative Resurgence in the SBC, truth seems to be evasive. Today we will take a glaring look at two specific cases involving Paige Patterson, one of Mac Brunson's closest colleagues, and we will attempt to discover the truth in each of these controversial situations.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Mr Kelly - Thank God for you!

August 27, 2009 7:49 AM

==================================
I TOO LOVE MR. KELLYS THOUGHTS ON THE WORD OF GOD - SO REFRESHING AND I PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT HE WRITES.

I do wonder if the TP (whom it has been said on the blog that he/she is truly a lawyer.

It puzzles me if this individual actually is a practicing attorney or is he/she just a bored retiree. If on the clock find he/she must not have too many projects as a lot of time is spent on here blogging back and forth. No problem, makes the "blog" even more interesting to read!

However I do find TP rides the fence for the most part as this person always comes back with nice words such as "sorry you feel that way" . . .

Thanks too, for all you folks sending other "websites" . . have learned a lot from reading the insights of what other people write.

Anonymous said...

TP,

You do not get it. New Covenant giving would not benefit Mac. They all know this which is why they preach tithing.

It is about all they could talk about at the Convention. They know it is drying up. Hemphill, a former seminary president who had a 6 figure job created for him at the SBC, even teaches tithing based on Melchizedek!

http://www.crosswalk.com/finances/11570583/

Of course his 6 figure income depends on folks like you believing a lie. (Lifeway was hawking his many books at the convention. I wonder if he gets to keep the royalties? I wonder if he wrote them on our time?)

Anonymous said...

I have often wondered if the teaching of dispensations is what keep folks from understanding that tithe went away after the cross? And that we are in a New Covenant?

Jesus said, "the sons are free" when Peter told them that Jesus paid the temple tax.

Russell Earl Kelly said...

Satan is recognized as one who distorts God's Word and changes it into a lie. That sounds more like somebody else.
Gal 3:1
3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
KJV

Anonymous said...

Lie Purveyor may be a personal injury attorney.

Anonymous said...

I can't even imagine what it would be like pastoring most of you people. I have never seen such legalistic Pharisees in all of my life. Even sadder is that if someone ever disagrees with you then they are automatically from Satan.

I imagine Mac thanks God every day that none of you are in his flock--and if you are, you don't have the integrity or courage to even speak up, you just gripe on a malcontent's blog.

Anonymous said...

I want to go to a church where Kelly is the Pastor and Matt, Thy Peace, the Bro formerly known as It Is Written are the deacons/elders. That would rule! That would actually bring me back through any church doors after pretty much quitting church entirely after my experiences at a major FB church in America.

I know you aforementioned bros. will humbly disagree/decline but hey, it's my fantasy - so please don't shoot the wheels off it. :) Love to all you sweet bros and sisters in Christ out there.

Anonymous said...

"I can't even imagine what it would be like pastoring most of you people. I have never seen such legalistic Pharisees in all of my life. Even sadder is that if someone ever disagrees with you then they are automatically from Satan."

Please look up 'pastor' in the NT so you can have a better understanding what it is. Actually, it is mentioned once.

Also study the Pharisees. They were the ones who were the 'religious leaders' of that time. Much like 'pastors' today are now earthly priests who many think are authority positions/offices in the Body of Christ.

You have been mislead about these concepts. I hope, for your sake, you will study on your own and learn truth from the Word instead of being a follower of men.

Scripture tells us the BEST teacher is the Holy Spirit.

Russell Earl Kelly said...

This quote comes from Mt 17:24-26 ann refers to p;ayingd tribute to Caesar. Even Jesus, as a Jew, paid the required TEmple head tax.

Russell Earl Kelly said...

After my book caused CBS News to discuss me and tithing, the SBC put Kenneth Hemphill out to rebuke me. I wrote a long rebuttal of his rebuttal to me and he refused to dialog. Guess what. CBS News is going to repeat the tithing story again very soon. http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id142.html

Russell Earl Kelly said...

There are many Grace Giving churches out there. Before the 1890s all of the SBC church How did they sukrvive, much less thrive?es were grace giving only. Wow!

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id83.html

Thy Peace said...

Purify the Church Blog > Part 2 :"J.Robert White and others within the GBC, SBC, and other State Conventions Bury their Heads in the Sand.".
How should leadership deal with disgruntled members?

I had never heard of this man. I had no idea who he was or what he was about. I am always looking for ways to help me and others get through the pain that I and others have endured. While I was searching on the internet for some relief, I did a google search on the subject "dealing with disgruntled members" and immediately came upon this article. I started reading it and immediately tears swelled out from my eyes. As I sat their the thoughts of what could have been ate me alive. I read it three times before I decided to make a phone call to the writer of this article. I explained to him the impact of his article on me and my situation and that I really appreciated his writing this column. After a few moments of reading such an excellent article written by this man, Wade Burleson, concerning how Pastor are to handle issues like these, we started discussing my situation (you can see his post about our discussion here). I was kind of shocked to see him post about our discussion the next day on his blog but had absolutely no problem with him letting others know about my issues within the Georgia Baptist Convention, the Anti - Blogging Resolution, and Mike Everson. I am very thankful for his insight and kindness. It is men like Wade Burleson who need to really consider GODS will for their lives and pray for discernment concerning taking a true warrior stand against those who push agendas other than being Christ focused and Christ lead.

Thy Peace said...

Excellent post by The Wartburg Watch:

The Wartburg Watch > CONTINUING ON THE PROBLEMS AT FBC JAX > JIMMY SMYRL -- REDNECK THEOLOGY.
There has been some talk that Tom Rich was investigated because his writings could be considered to be inciteful. What this means is that his writings might cause someone to do something harmful. Well, I have read all of Tom’s blog. If Robby Hinson considered Tom’s words “inciteful”, then Jimmy’s words are even more so. I think we should call on the state attorney to do an investigation into the potential threat that these words might represent to Roman Catholic churches in the Jacksonville area. Hmm, anybody listening?

Anonymous said...

Just as the Slave Owners told the slaves to obey their masters and the Lord would bless them, we should give our money to Mac and the Lord will bless us. Mac's only responsibility is this is to TAKE our money. The storehouse was supposed to be there for the needy. Now, the church is the last place you will get help when you are in need. That is the Lord's responsibility, not the Church's or Mac's. He only collects and spends the money.

Anonymous said...

It would be insightful to actually know how many posters are actually members of FBC, Jax and also how many actually give one red cent to that church.

When both of the above are true, then you have the "right" to criticize Mac. But then along with your right to criticize is your "right" to go in and meet with him personally if you are a member and disagree with one of the policies of the church.

Until then, you should keep your critical mouths shut.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Wow. Someone called it the "baptist mafia". Sounds like we have the FBC Jax Mafia. Unless you give money to the church, you better keep your mouths shut. And even then, if you have anything to say, you better march in and say it directly to the pope, Mac himself.

So our "rights" to criticize Mac only come when we first walk an aisle and join FBC Jax, and only when we start forking over money to Mac. That's when we receive our "rights" to criticize Mac.

You gotta love it.

Like Mac said, "Shut em down."

However, at least you got one thing right, anon....storehouse tithing is a "policy of the church". That is the best that can be said about it.

Russell Earl Kelly said...

The door swings in both directions. If you do not like what we are saying, you can leave. I would prefer that you stick around and correct what we say from God's Word. Otherwise, join us.

Anonymous said...

Hey WD, you should put your personal finances online for us all to see. You are joke. You must have been picked on when you were younger.

Anonymous said...

For once I think you got it right Tom.

If you aren't a member and don't give to the church then keep your mouth (and blog) shut. What a church does is their own business.

I still can't understand your preoccupation with Mac. I'm beginning to agree more and more with his calling you a sociopath.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Sorry, Charlie, I won't keep my mouth or my blog shut.

Last time I checked, you aren't donating one red cent to me, and I don't have a church that I'm leading that you've joined, so you have no right to come here and criticize me. And if you do, why don't you march over to my house and tell me to my face?

See how flawed your arguments are? If you don't like this blog, just stop reading it. Its that simple.

I'm concerned about your preoccupation with this blog. Perhaps you are demonstrating sociopathic behavior in your demands that this blog be shut down. Move on. The blog is here, you need to just move on.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Sure, I'll put my finances online, right after Mac puts his and his church's online for us all to see.

Which will be a couple of days after hell freezes over.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps you are demonstrating sociopathic behavior in your demands that this blog be shut down.

And you are suing someone for defamation because someone referred to you as a sociopath?

Evil for one but not for you?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Is it defamation to call an anonymous poster a "sociopath"?

No, not until I call the JSO, get a criminal investigation opened, and find your identity after subpoening Google to identify the Anonymous poster on my blog...then telling the newspaper you're a sociopath.

That MIGHT be defamation.

Nice try.

Truth Purveyor said...

TP,

You do not get it. New Covenant giving would not benefit Mac. They all know this which is why they preach tithing.

Sorry, Anon, I do get it. I have never been in any Church that does not preach Malaci 3. Linsay Sr, Jr., and Vines all have preached the same thing since 1940. Mac and all the rest of the preachers, including Tom's preacher can preach tithing until Hell freezes over and folks will still only give what they feel that they can afford with the reality that the majority of people give less than 1% based on national averages.

I believe in giving as defined by Kelly.

Kelly says: The equality principle of 2nd Corinthians 8:12-15 means that many should give much more than 10% but it also means that many are giving sacrificially even though much less than 10%.

For me personally I practice this principal. For me, I joyfully give as much, if not more, to the Lord's work as I am made to give to Caesar. My choice as I have been led by the Holy Spirit.

Anon August 27, 2009 10:16 AM says
"Lie Purveyor may be a personal injury attorney."

Sorry to disappoint you anon. You must be thinking of Eddie Farah. I would not be so quick to judge those guys. One day you or I might need one to protect our rights.

If you must know I was a constitutional law attorney. That is why it says Truth Purveyor. I do not do, nor have I ever done personal injury or family law, etc. Both turn my stomach.

As far as the anon's complaining about Tom suing the JSO, SAO, and FBCJ, even Mac Brunson personally is his right under the Constitution. That is what makes this country unique in the annals of history.

For me personally, I believe the scripture is very clear on directly suing a fellow Christian. Some anons in the past have tried to justify this based on situational ethics, but I personally believe the Scripture clearly does not allow it. I know that there will be many that disagree and that is their right.

Tom is also correct. When he was anonymous, Mac's comments could in no way could be construed as slander or libel, until Tom's identity was discovered and telling it to a reporter who published the comment as a direct quote. When this was published, the rules changed and it will be up to the courts to decide the outcome.

As far as Tom's blog, it is his constitutional right to do it and keep it going till Hell freezes over. Just as it is anyone elses right to do the same thing against his current church and its pastor or any other group or organization that they wish.

However, along with rights comes the possibility that you violate the Constitution and/or the Bill of Rights and open yourself up to potential litigation and financial harm and/or incarceration.

Sincerely,


T

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Truth Purveyor - sorry, but you STILL don't get it.

I realize that storehouse tithing has been taught for the last 60+ years at FBC Jax.

And I realize many churches have taught it and still do.

But that is my point exactly:

Mac Brunson won't teach it.

I wonder why? He is preaching non-stop on "slander" and "persecution", but he won't open the bible and clearly teach from the bible storehouse tithing.

If I'm wrong, please correct me...but Mac Brunson in 3 1/2 years at FBC Jax has never preached a tithing sermon. He has never opened the book of Malachi and preached from the bible that a Christian is obligated to tithe, else they are out of fellowship with God.

But what Mac DOES do...he refers to how his dad taught him to tithe (tradition), he tells people that their finances are messed up because they don't tithe, and he has played audio and video clips of former pastors who said we should tithe (tradition), he tells people its "in da book", and if yo don't tithe "take it up with da book". He also tells people they are "doing the work of Satan" if they don't agree with his tithing doctrine (legalism and fundamentalism). Now he has gone so far to tell us that the world economic recession is an "act of God" because Christians aren't forking over 10% of their money to he and other pastors' churches.

What is next? God will be giving cancer to those who don't tithe? Why is autism on the rise - maybe its because of non-tithers? Which city has the smallest percentage of tithers along the East Coast - maybe they'll be the next target for a Category 5 hurricane? I mean really...that is the direction Mac is going with his escalation of tithing doctrine statements.

I believe Mac's antics and nonsense on tithing is abusive and legalistic preaching. In fact, I'm not so sure Mac actually believes tithing is a mandate for the Christian, but perhaps its just a marketing ploy - perhaps he and Maurilio believe it to be the best way to raise revenue at FBC Jax, to beat people up demanding the tithe.

More and more preachers are realizing that their church members are wising up to the nonsense of the storehouse tithing doctrine. They instead teach grace giving, giving out of love, a cheerful heart, as each is purposed in their heart to give. And maybe 10% might be a good starting place - but it ain't a requirement placed on Christians to stay in good graces with God and to guilt people into giving more.

Perhaps Mac is one of these preachers, but just can't bring himself to admit it...the tithing message must be working too well.

Anonymous said...

"If you aren't a member and don't give to the church then keep your mouth (and blog) shut. What a church does is their own business."

Where on earth do people learn this stuff? So, if the Corinthian church was teaching heresy, it was none of the Philippian church's business?

Au Contraire my friend. Those people listening to heresy is most definitely OUR business.

Are we not the universal Body of Christ? Not in your book.

Anyway, that means Smyrl was in sin for attacking the Catholics. It is NONE of his business because they claim to be Christians.

Anonymous said...

"If you aren't a member and don't give to the church then keep your mouth (and blog) shut. What a church does is their own business."

Then the Jerusalem council had NO business getting involved with the problems in the Galatia province churches. That was sin.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:52
"It would be insightful to actually know how many posters are actually members of FBC, Jax and also how many actually give one red cent to that church."
********************************
From what is said on this blog I would say the answer is that most of the bloggers are actually members of First Baptist Church of Jacksonville as you see they write too many facts that only a member would know and be a witnes too.

As for monies, my IRS statments say I've donated "thousands", a wee bit more than "one red cent" to the ministries of FBCJ.

I've said before, I'm sure the "church watchdogs" know who we the bloggers are.

I could care less - one of these days perhaps they will post our names on the front page of The Florida Times Union newspaper - okay with me, I've got nothing to hide as for the moment my comments still abide within the U.S. Constitution with the "freedom of speech" rights!

Lighten up - be nice, like most of the bloggers really are - they are not the evil wolves that some of you seem to think they are.

Former FBC Insider said...

It's the First Baptist way...
Church of the Open Door...
Shut up!
Shut down!
Not your business!
Butt Out!
Get Out!

Very Christ honoring isn't it?
Very loving and kind to outsiders, isn't it?

Status Quo Brothers, just Status Quo.
Don't expect any miracles while Mac is at the helm.

Down the drain they go.
Such a beautiful witness to Jax and the world.

Anonymous said...

It sure would help if some of the Mac supporters actually knew scripture.

Anonymous said...

Wow! Good advice to Charlie about why doesn't he come over and tell you to your face. That's what you should have done to Dr. Brunson.

Russell Earl Kelly said...

Actually each church is totally independent AS AN ORGANIZATION and nobody else should tell them how to run their ORGAZATIONAL affairs. This is something that the SBC has always stood for but has radically departed from. Now the Convention is being given (or is taking) more and more control by attempting to demand a certain percentage of church income to the State and Convention.

However, when it comes to the Body of Christ and the priesthood of every believer, Paul's commandS to Timothy related to defending the TRUTH no matter where one might be. I think we have an obligation to speak up against error in any part of the Body. Otherwise my book on tithing and my book on Seventh-day Adventism are both out of place. Does not the SBC try to convert Muslims, JWs, Mormons, etc with its missionary efforts? Is not that the same "sin" of telling other churches what to believe?

Anonymous said...

"Wow! Good advice to Charlie about why doesn't he come over and tell you to your face. That's what you should have done to Dr. Brunson.

August 28, 2009 5:18 PM
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Face to Face . . .what a joke!

Word soon spread early on that one of the beloved staff members EMAILED, CALLED SEVERAL TIMES trying to speak with Dr. Brunson after being brought into a room by three (3) other (former)senior staff members to be told that he would no longer be needed on the FBC staff - short and blunt!

Give credit to Dr. Vines as it was his policy to be man enough to "hire" and "fire" the staff. Dr. Vines didn't let others do the dirty work when it came to firing staff - he did it himself!

What we have left are the "YES" staff who certainly have a healthy fear of loosing their jobs.

That's why the Preacher can boast in his August 12th request for more monies that "he's never worked with a staff more united in ministry than here at First Baptist JAX."

Anonymous said...

If I was your current pastor I would have to seriously question what is wrong with you. Your inability to move on and let it go is scary. You are possessed with Mac and that's never good.

Anonymous said...

anon 6:36,

What are you possessed with?

Junkster said...

So, now Watchdog is possessed with Mac?? Is that anything like being possessed by a demon? Hmmmmm.....

Watchdog, you'd better watch out. If you are Mac-possessed you might start channeling loud, abusive sermons! Scary thought!

Seems to me that some of the Mac supporters here are more likely the ones who are Mac-possessed.

Junkster said...

New Commercial: Mac vs. W.D.

(Slick preacher type): “Hi, I’m a Mac!”

(Regular guy type): “And I’m a W.D.”

Mac: “Why are you looking so tired, W.D.?”

W.D.: “Well, I’ve just been working hard lately at studying my Bible to understand what it says about tithing.”

Mac: “Oh, I see. Well, when you’re a Mac you don’t have to bother with all that. I just say whatever I want followed by a big 'Hah!' or 'Amen?' -- fast and easy.”

W.D.: “Yeah, but how reliable is that? My hard work at studying pays off with knowledge of God’s will for my life.”

Mac: “No need, when you’ve got a Mac! Just do whatever I say without questioning and you’ll be fine.”

W.D.: “But shouldn’t I try to understand and apply God’s Word myself?”

Mac: “Whatever for? I’ve got all that covered. Just make sure you make your monthly Mac payments and everything will be fine.”

W.D.: “You make me feel so inadequate, Mac.”

Mac: “You are, W.D. You are.”

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:30- Would you be willing to say who it was?

Bro./pastor Rod H. said...

"anon 6:36,

What are you possessed with?

August 28, 2009 7:42 PM

Well I know one thing these Mac defenders seem to be devoid of!!!

And that's Scriptural knowledge!!!

Please enough of these embelic statements such as::

"You must be possessed with Mac."

Or,

"Why did'nt you go in and meet with Mac"...

Or,

"If you don't like it leave".

Or,

"You must be a sociopath".


Please feel free at anytime to move from the Jim Jones kool-aid zone and defend Mac using that Book you you seem to not understand to defend his actions!!!

Anonymous said...

"Hey Junster that last post was classic"!!!

Dr. Fill said...

ANON August 28, 2009 6:36 PM is the type of follower around which cults are created.

Lydia said...

Junster, Excellent

As in Mac the knife. :o)

Anonymous said...

Just read the posts folks and you can see that Tom Rich is obsessed with Mac. It is sad to see.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Anon 6:30- Would you be willing to say who it was?

August 28, 2009 8:22 PM

ANSWER:
If you were a member of FBC you know exactly who the preacher was that was fired! No, I'm not willing to post a "good mans name" who was "unjustly" fired and if you are a member, I'm not a stranger amongst you! Who are you, one of the divorced, wine sipping deacons?

Anonymous said...

All anyone has to do is listen to Mac Brunson's sermons over the past two years, and you'll see he is absolutely, completely obsessed with one lone blogger, a voice of dissent. Even now, after the blogger's name is known, he is STILL obsessed over it. Each and every week, he preaches about how he is "slandered", "maligned". He can't get over it. He now spends each sermon convincing his congregation that what is happening to him and the church is "Christian persecution" and they should rejoice. They should rejoice that Mac called Rich a sociopath. They should be happy and count themselves as doubly blessed that there is a lawsuit against them and their pastor because one of their members and friend of Mac actually subpoened a blogger's identity and gave it over to the church so that trespass papers could be issued. They should be happy and sing praises to the Lord that Richs wife was banned from her church. Praise the Lord!

It is sad, so sad, that the people sitting in the church refuse to see how far Mac has slid. He is angry, he is bitter, and he is obsessed.

And Mac is dishing out the Kool Aid, and they are eagerly lapping it up.

Sad, so sad.

Thy Peace said...

All anyone has to do is listen to Mac Brunson's sermons over the past two years, and you'll see he is absolutely, completely obsessed with one lone blogger, a voice of dissent. Even now, after the blogger's name is known, he is STILL obsessed over it. Each and every week, he preaches about how he is "slandered", "maligned". He can't get over it. He now spends each sermon convincing his congregation that what is happening to him and the church is "Christian persecution" and they should rejoice.

Very perceptive comment. This is the origin of the current situation at FBC Jax. Just my opinion.

The Wartburg Watch > CONTINUING ON THE PROBLEMS AT FBC JAX > THE REDNECK THEOLOGIAN MEETS GOD'S MIND READER.
Yesterday we looked at Jimmy’s view on Catholicism and the position of priest. It's really quite simple according to this Southern Baptist pastor. Catholicism is a cult and the local priest is a cult leader. Also, priest pedophilia was caused by the Catholic church’s response to the Reformation. We still can’t figure out what causes pedophilia among Baptist pastors since, presumably, they believe in the Reformation. Please go to Christa Brown’s informative website to see pictures of a whole slew of post Reformation Baptist pastor who are sexual offenders. The numbers will shock you!

StopBaptistPredators.org
.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog I know you have beef with Mac and I pray oneday that yall are able sit as brothers in Christ without any hinderances. I still not have heard the sermon you have talked about but I have listen to others and I have not problem. Are there points I might disagree with, yes. What is the title of the sermon you talking about?
Pastor Chris

Provender said...

Tom Rich is "obsessed with Mac" like David was obsessed with King Saul or Naboth with King Ahab

Johnny D. said...

"Just read the posts folks and you can see that Tom Rich is obsessed with Mac. It is sad to see."

If he's "obsessed" with anything, it is truth and justice. He has sadness over what has happened to the church he and his family attended for years. He could have been like most of us and just left, but he chose to fight in the way that he felt was the best manner. Why fault him for that? What's with the slanders and such?

I thought you people had the power of the Holy Spirit living in you. Paul, when referring to the believers in-dwelling power of the Spirit used the ancient Greek word, "dunamis." That word is the root of our English word "dynamite." So, with this so-called Holy Spirit power, you should be something akin to dynamite. All I see is a whole lot of folks with no more power than the non-believer typing this.

To the anonymous person that posted the quote I pasted above, you're the perfect example of a major reason I walked. You attend church, but you're no more sanctified than me. Your true "Christian" response should be nothing more than prayer and encouragement to either both parties involved in this dispute, or the party that you favor. That is it. That is Biblical, and that is right, but you just can't help yourself.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Johnny - the ones that come here and say these things about me, they are probably the very young, immature, over-zealous believers. They have been taught that to defend their pastor is to defend their faith, and so they come here doing "God's will" to say that I'm "obsessed" and that I am a "sociopath". They can't defend the words of their pastor, so they attack me.

Also, its a defense mechanism for them. In order for them to comprehend that their pastor is saying nonsensical things from the pulpit, and there is a guy on the Internet who dares to draw attention to it...they must must attack the person who is saying drawing attention to the utterings of their spiritual leader. If they can dismiss the person saying these things about their church and their pastor, and declare me to be a lunatic, or someone doing the work of Satan, it helps them justify their own tolerance of such nonsense.

Anonymous said...

Tom,

I'll have to give you credit--you do find ways to deflect criticism of yourself and your blog. The problem is that no matter what Mac does, it doesn't justify your attacks on this blog.

Trust me, we are not all young immature believers. We are just veteran believers that recognize a malcontent when we see one. And of course, an anonymous malcontent is even easier to recognize.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

What I say are my views and criticisms, you see as "attacks".

You have bought into the mantra coming forth from your spiritual leaders that to criticize someone, especially a mega church pastor, is to "attack" them.

I feel sorry for you, I really do, because you've been blinded.

Your own pastor attacks from the pulpit, but you can't see it. You can only come to a blog, and decry someone who was once anonymous, and you do it anonymously yourself, to criticize them for "attacking", by attacking them.

The hypocisy coming forth from the "mature" believers, is sad.

But its another service this blog provides, I suppose - it allows the "mature believers" at FBC Jax to show their true colors.

So post on, "mature believers" - it is very instructive for the world to see.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"Trust me, we are not all young immature believers. We are just veteran believers that recognize a malcontent when we see one. And of course, an anonymous malcontent is even easier to recognize."

August 30, 2009 1:41 PM


You are a veteran believers in what?

That a Pastor can't be in error?

Since you think yourself to be a veteran believer.

Please reference any examples of false leaders/Prophets/teachers in the Old or New Test!

Can you name any?

What were/are their characteristics.

Is Mac at fault for anything that he has done?

You Sir/Ma'am are the type of itchy eared person who has absolutely "NO" spiritual discernment.

And hirelings feast on the gullible!!!

Lydia said...

"Trust me, we are not all young immature believers."

I agree with Bro Rod. A veteran beiever in what?


" We are just veteran believers that recognize a malcontent when we see one. And of course, an anonymous malcontent is even easier to recognize."

And anonymous are you, too!

You have learned well from your overpaid and greedy SBC leaders. You sound just like them. And it will get worse as the money thins out.

Anonymous said...

If you can handle this:

Its your fault the economy is tanking

"Here"

the Sin of Insurection

"Here"

my sins, none of your business

"Here"

the devil is always after me when i do missions

"Here"

I'm tithing and giving more (but not on my car allowance, or my housing allowance, or my medical insurance, or my ..etc)

"Here"

Warped Theology

"Here"


But just keep giving

"Here"


-

Anonymous said...

"Trust me, we are not all young immature believers. We are just veteran believers that recognize a malcontent when we see one. And of course, an anonymous malcontent is even easier to recognize.

August 30, 2009 1:41 PM
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
So hypocritical - you too are recognized when you post such critcal remarks under ANON.

My thoughts exactly WD and Bro/Pastor Rod on replies to the above ugly author who spoke on behalf of the "Veteran Believers."

They very well are the ones that shake my hand each and every service! :>)

Wow, Even on the Lord's day they check in to critize. Believe truth be said, one could see that others do more talking (like myself) than the Watchdog! :>)

P.S. Another article to today in the Florida Times Union on the subject of 'blogging'. . .reminder that what we type today can haught you tomorrow - not my words, but Kathleen Parker of the Washing Post Writers Group.

Anonymous said...

I love how so many of you think you are so spiritual and discerning and always seem to find a way to justify what Tom Rich has done. If you aren't a member of FBC, Jax, then you have no say in what goes on there and since Tom is no longer a member, he needs to move on.

Tom is a sociopath and his every post and obsession proves it. Some of you jump to his defense at every hand and then accuse the Mac supporters of the same thing. You are all sick. If Tom weren't a sociopath he would destroy this blog and get on with his life.

Just imagine the toll this is taking on his wife and kids--and its all his fault and his alone.

SLAVE OF CHRIST said...

JESUS IS LORD

Anonymous said...

I remember a comment by a friend when someone asked him where he went to church.

He said, "name of our church."

The reply: "Oh, that is Pastor Name's church."

He replied, "No, it is Christ's church where I and a number of other people attend. We employ Pastor Name to lead us, preach, and do various pastoral things."

I don't have the text quite right, but the message seems clear. While I do feel that the pastor's role extends beyond what my friend mentioned--it was not Pastor Name's church any more than it was my friend's and my church.

I'm not going to sign this one. :) No point taking any chances that the church might be identified.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 6:11

You're a liar, and a slanderer.

Not only will you not condemn your pastor for slandering a former church member in the newspaper, you will do the exact opposite of that and will join him in the slander.

FBC Jax: now the "Church of the Open Slander". How low can it go.

Instead of holding the pastor accountable for his words, and him issuing an apology or maybe a retraction or clarification, instead we'll JOIN HIM in the slander. Why yes, he was right. This blogger is a sociopath.

This is the stuff that cults are made of.

The pastor can do no wrong.

And anyone he wrongs, we'll just call them names.

Sick.

And please, no sympathy for my wife and kids. We are doing quite well, and we are thankful that the Lord is with us and guiding us.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"I love how so many of you think you are so spiritual and discerning and always seem to find a way to justify what Tom Rich has done. If you aren't a member of FBC, Jax, then you have no say in what goes on there and since Tom is no longer a member, he needs to move on."

August 30, 2009 6:11 PM


Anon I'm not a citizen of California!

But you know what???

That pervert who kidnapped that young lady when she was only a child and kept her for 18 years is an "EVIL DESPICABLE DEGENERATE"!

I call it like I see it,citizen or not!!!

With Mac I call it as I see it!!

Another thing Mr.Anon the reason that so many of us can see right through Mac's sheep's clothing is because we do study intently our Bible's instead of just using them as a coaster monday thru saturday as you apparently do!!!

Sir if you will only just pick it up and pray and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you instead of being spoon feed what men like Mac only want you to hear,then you too would see right thru Mac just as Dr.Dog and others have!!!

Anonymous said...

Perfectly expressed, Bro. Rod H., Lydia and anon.5:45 p.m. You have my prayers Mr. Rich.

Anonymous said...

Just imagine the toll this is taking on his wife and kids--and its all his fault and his alone.

August 30, 2009 6:11 PM

But wait? How is that YOUR business? You are not part of his family.

Did you not spend time on this same comment saying that if we do not attend FBCJax, what goes on there is none of our business? (Can you give biblical support for that?)

So, how is his family situation your business?

Every single time the Mac lemmings comment, we see their hypocrisy and lack of logic. It is all they have been taught. They cannot think beyond what the pastor tells them to think.

If you guys think you are helping Mac, think again. But I think it is great...keep on commenting.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

What the guy probably means is:

"I sure hope this is taking a toll on his wife and kids."

Those that know me and my family, know that God's grace and the goodness of true Christian friends have helped sustain us. Its not been easy, but God is good, and our faith has been strengthened.

Anonymous said...

WD - You seem to be filled with pride. Are you willing to admit that you have failed?

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"WD - You seem to be filled with pride. Are you willing to admit that you have failed?"

August 31, 2009 7:37 AM

Wrong again Anon!

Tom has more than succeeded in opening the eyes of those who are willing and have the ability to discern!

Many now see exactly what is happening at FBCJ!!

And others like yourself will never see.

You my friend are the unknowing blind being lead by the blind!!!

Anonymous said...

You Mac supporters are soo low and mean,it's sick!

Anonymous said...

Let's see...8:15 sunday morning and back at it at 11:55 sunday morning...?? Wow WD, you seem to be obsessed like a 6 year old with video games...Shouldn't you have been in church somewhere preying on your next victim?

Anonymous said...

Low...Mean...sick...I thought that was the hole purpose of this blog???

Thy Peace said...

Let's see...8:15 sunday morning and back at it at 11:55 sunday morning...??.

The actual times are as follows:

2:29 PM, 8:15 PM, 11:55PM.

Anonymous said...

I think the pro Mac commenters actually help WD. More folks are seeing the mean and spiteful fruit that is coming from FBCJax. Even some current members.

we are seeing that the church is made up of those who follow a man.

Anonymous said...

OOO!!! P.M...even worse...like momma always said "nothing good happens after dark". Go to bed, get some rest and try to contribute something positive to society tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

...actually help WD? I thought you were attaking me for following a man...what exactly are you doing? is WD not a man? i am so confused

Anonymous said...

mean and spiteful are not fruits of the spirit...wise up watch puppy.

Anonymous said...

...actually help WD? I thought you were attaking me for following a man...what exactly are you doing? is WD not a man? i am so confused

August 31, 2009 9:04 AM

Of course you are confused. Just wait for Mac to tell you what to think.

WD is not my pastor. I am not following him. I am joining him because I agree with his analysis. And he does not claim to be my leader as Mac claims to be YOUR authority and leader. And you either agree with him and go along or get out.

WD even lets his detractors comment here!

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"...actually help WD? I thought you were attaking me for following a man...what exactly are you doing? is WD not a man? i am so confused"

August 31, 2009 9:04 AM

Right Anon!

That's what many of us have been trying to relay too you Mac defenders, "that you are "CONFUSED"!!

You're wrong again,we are not following Tom blindly as you are following Brunson!

We have read and seen the evidence given and compared them to the evidence written in the Word of God and come to the conclusion that things are not right with Mac and FBCJ!!!

"Do you understand that!!!

Anonymous said...

The problem with the watch puppy and yourself is that you firmly believe that you have it all figured out. You are right and I am wrong. Mac and the watch puppy and you are all alike.

Anonymous said...

August 31, 2009 8:43 AM

Just proves my point about the Mac supporters. So obnoxious... well guess you learn from your pastor. Like attracts like, doesn't it.

Anonymous said...

Thy peace, good work pointing out what IDIOTS these Mac supporters are.

Go get 'em Dog! Expose these FAKE Christians for what they are. They love Money, not Christ. Their arrogance is enough to turn the non-believing world off. You people are killing TRUE witnessing. But you people keep on pan-handling like you do and keep on victimizing the REAL believers.

Anonymous said...

If Tom weren't a sociopath he would destroy this blog and get on with his life.

Just imagine the toll this is taking on his wife and kids--and its all his fault and his alone.

August 30, 2009 6:11 PM
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
THIS WAS A GOOD ONE!

If I exchanged places with Mrs. Rich, I would be a "PITBULL" and if my husband shut down this blog I would pick up where he left off and start my own blog and for sure I'd make it a good one! As far as my kids they too would be involved and become "Pitbull Puppies" on behalf of their dad.

As for me, I'm a supporter, unknown friend of the Rich family, and a Member of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Florida.

BTW, it is my church and it is my right to question any and all of the details of any activity that goes on in this organization.

Thank you, but it is my decision when to "move on" or "butt out" when God tells me to do so! (well, perhaps that statement isn't exactly truthful as Mrs. Rich did get the boot)

SMILE! (one of my trademarks - I'm always nice, I always smile and have lots of friends!

Anonymous said...

Tom Rich is just exposing power and financial abuses within the church and the "RICH and FAMOUS"don't like it. So they want him to SHUT THE BLOG DOWN.Thank goodness for our freedom of speech!!!

Anonymous said...

First LIE ...mail stealing and picture/stalking and linking of Tom Rich...Second LIE...Tom is a sociopath, obssessive/compulsive, mentally unstable.What will the Third LIE be? Like Bro. Rod/pastor said WORSE AND WORSE AND WORSE. Even Steve Edmonds after he was found guilty was given a tour of the new constructed Children's building on a Fiday night, but Tom and Yvette were kicked out and word is that their photos were passed out warning some volunteer workers that if they were seen on campus to be reported to security. Shelly (Baumgardner)Norman... you know Yvette whom for many years served along with you in the various children ministries.Is she of any danger to FBC? FBC , wake up and speak up!

Anonymous said...

talk about sociopaths, obsessive compulsive, let'see who should we include...hmmm. I know, how about Rush Limbaugh , didn't he hammered and criticize the Clinton administaration for 8 years.Then you have to also include Sean Hannity and Alan Colmes
and of course, Bill O'Reilly...

I am a former FBC church member and once I was intimidated by their leaders, but not anymore... I won't allow these bullies to intimidate me!

Anonymous said...

Pastor Rod, are you actually an active preacher?

Anonymous said...

And yet another day of the same 'ole thing...bla....bla...bla...bla...bla...

Party is over folks...time to take your kool-aid and video games and move on...oh yea, don't forget your Hanaha Montana lunch box.

Truth Purveyor said...

Anon: August 31, 2009 2:10 PM

If you are going to act like you know it all please present the correct dates and facts.

Edmonds was arrested, not convicted, in 2002.

The Children's Building was opened in 2002. Therefore if he toured the building under the law he is still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

Edmonds pleaded GUILTY mid 2003.

Therefore your statement; "Even Steve Edmonds after he was found guilty was given a tour of the new constructed Children's building on a Fiday night" is incorrect and in your words is a LIE!

Frankly, I am not defending him here because I think that he should have received a minimum of three to five years.

As far as your statement about Tom and Yvette's "word is that their photos were passed out warning some volunteer workers that if they were seen on campus to be reported to security."

There is nothing sinister or unusual about this, nor would they be picking on them. It is common practice to post information on folks at most churches that I know if someone has a trespass notice on them.

As far as the third lie statement from Bro. Rod/pastor, of which I do not believe that he is a pastor the way that he pontificates on this site, what was your point here?

In closing, I don't think that mentioning Tom and his wife and in the same statement bringing up a convicted sex offender is appropriate towards the Rich's. I would not want anyone trying to make a connection there.

Sincerely,


T

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

Some comments from Baptist Life Forums Post NAMB clearly adrift, perhaps drowning.

Some of these comments will resonate with this blog and it's readers :)
-------------------------------------
Comment by Sandy:

"Chris wrote:
I (Chris) have become so cynical about statements like "We have felt God's Hand in this decision;" "We are convinced this is God's man for the job;" "We have felt The Lord's Moving (whatever that is) in this decision;" "Pastor (fill in any name) is a true Man of God;" etc. etc., that I will immediately dismiss the next such statement I hear. It is Baptist speak, and I'm sick of it."

Translation: We have chosen someone who has the right Baptist pedigree and the right connections on the trustee board. Phone calls have already been made to propose whatever deals need to be made in order to get this person in the job. An effort has been made to create an appearance of a legitimate search so that there won't be too much complaining of influence peddling. This is the guy that the select few have chosen and that's that. So let's put on a smile, and a happy face, spin the media reports in whatever way they need, and move on.


Comment by William Thornton:

"Mark wrote:
This is probably a topic for at least one or more separate threads, but...

Is it possible that God did lead the committee to choose Geoff Hammond and/or Bob Reccord, knowing in advance (unless one believes in Open Theism, of course ) that these leaders would veer off course, as did King David, Judas, etc? Perhaps so that some greater aspect of God's purpose could be achieved? Or, that folks would depend on God more? Or something else?

I'm not saying that's what I necessarily think. Just wondering out loud..."

Exactly how does a committee know the will of God, particularly in such a specific and unique manner - one person, and one person alone out of all the people of the world to be head of NAMB?

While I realize that this is exactly what churches and church search committees go through, I don't think that bad results can easily be blamed on God or dismissed with the reason that God wanted a meltdown for His own purposes. Let's not get too spiritual here, the simplest solution is generally the right one and the trustees put a leader in charge of our $130+ mil enterprise who was incapable of leading it, praised him effusively, and then cut his feet out from under him. If insider information would dispute any of that, I don't know what it might be.

Maybe God is punishing the SBC because SBCers don't know enough to give strong medicine to their own agencies when they are ill served by them
.
-----------------------------------

Anonymous said...

Truth Purveyor
My point being that Steve Edmonds was treated much nicer than the Rich's.Okay , I got some erroneous info. by mistake,but when we parents of elementary aged children saw him walking around in the new Children's building after he was being investigated for such allegations some of us felt uncomfortable.The Rich's present no danger to our church,therefore I don't understand why they were trespassed and their photos circulated around. PATHETIC!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

"The Children's Building was opened in 2002. Therefore if he toured the building under the law he is still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law."

Then I am sure you would have no problem if he babysat your kids during the 'innocent until proven guilty' time.

Anonymous said...

This years Chest of Joash ought to be interesting.

Anonymous said...

Wow I can't believe these ugly spirited comments by the Mac supporters on this page. This is uncalled for and definetly slanderous to the WD. Posting comments like these are just more proof of how irrational and drunk on FBC Jax kool aid people can be. What ungodliness!

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

Pastor Rod, are you actually an active preacher?"

August 31, 2009 4:50 PM

Yes I am the Pastor of a small ministry here in Jax!



"As far as the third lie statement from Bro. Rod/pastor, of which I do not believe that he is a pastor the way that he pontificates on this site, what was your point here?"

T.P.what lie did I tell?

T.P.you appear to have no problem with Mac pontificating about tithing without any attempt to explain why many theologian disagree!

You have no problem with Mac calling anyone who preaches against tithing servants of Satan(which would include John MacAuthur Jr.)!

You appear to have no problem with Jim Smyrl preaching against Catholicism!

Mac calling Tom a derogatory name is this pontificating?

Mac pontificates everytime he preaches yet you appear to have no problem with him!

Preaching or professing with authority what the Bible or one believes to be true by it's very nature is to pontificate isn't it?

T.P.the Apostle Paul called Bar-jesus in the Book of Acts a child of the Devil,was he pontificating?

T.P.when one is given a set of facts as Tom has given,along with other inputs,one comes to his/her own conclusions about this situation.Just as it appears that you have come to yours!!!

Anonymous said...

I would venture to say that the vast majority of those who post on here are:

* Not members of FBC, Jax.
* Do not attend church regularly or at all.
* Do not tithe.
* Are in no positions of leadership if they do attend church.
* Are usually among the group of people who complain about everything.
* Are blue collar types.
* Probably do not make over $50,000 a year.
* Usually complain about anyone in authority at any level in their lives.

Sad commentary isn't it?

Anonymous said...

You people claim to have the love of Christ but yet you scorn the likes of Steve Edmonds. Does he not need the love of Christ just like the rest of us? Would true followers of Christ treat him and speak of him the way most of you are? Do you think that Christ withholds grace from Edmonds?

Thy Peace said...

The Wartburg Watch > continuing on the Problems at FBC Jax > DISSENTING OPINIONS ARE NOT ALLOWED!.
We are still in disbelief that Tom Rich was “outed” by FBC Jax and that his identity was disclosed to many leaders in the church. We will address this matter in greater detail tomorrow.

Today, we want to focus on how the subpoenas were obtained from the State Attorney’s Office in Florida. Please bear with us as we repeat the key facts of the case. Tom Rich had been a member of First Baptist Church Jacksonville for close to two decades. As far as we can determine, he respected Jerry Vines, the long time pastor of FBC Jax. Vines retired in January 2006, and Mac Brunson assumed the helm several months later.

Anonymous said...

Truth Purveyor said...
Anon: August 31, 2009 2:10 PM

Question For The Day?
Since you seem to weave back and forth on defending so many facts that go on at First Baptist, are you a member of First Baptist, if so, are you a representive of one of the committee's or on the deacon board?

Anonymous said...

You people claim to have the love of Christ but yet you scorn the likes of Steve Edmonds. Does he not need the love of Christ just like the rest of us? Would true followers of Christ treat him and speak of him the way most of you are? Do you think that Christ withholds grace from Edmonds?

September 1, 2009 7:32 AM

Hmmmmmm. What do you mean? That Grace means no jail time? That we ignore civil laws because of some cheap grace? That cheap grace means you have him babyset your kids? Is there never a time for wisdom and protecting the least of these? Is that now considered mean?

I am assuming he was a professing Christian when he molested? Right? Did he think he was covered by cheap grace for ruining a kids life?

Wouldn't it be great to see true repentance? And someone truly repentent would have no problem serving his time. Is there some reason you do not think he can receive grace behind bars?

Cheap grace is very dangerous for little children in the SBC.

Anonymous said...

You people claim to have the love of Christ but yet you scorn the likes of Steve Edmonds. Does he not need the love of Christ just like the rest of us? Would true followers of Christ treat him and speak of him the way most of you are? Do you think that Christ withholds grace from Edmonds?

September 1, 2009 7:32 AM

What about grace for the victim who will carry that with them for the rest of their life. Even after forgiving, the trust that should ahve been expected from a Christian adult who acted like they were a follower of Christ. Ever read the verse about the millstone?

now we have folks more concerned about the pervert than the victim. That is not grace for the victim, either. Why is the victim less important to you?

Anonymous said...

"You people claim to have the love of Christ but yet you scorn the likes of Steve Edmonds. Does he not need the love of Christ just like the rest of us? Would true followers of Christ treat him and speak of him the way most of you are? Do you think that Christ withholds grace from Edmonds?"

Are you asking if true believers would call out such a heinous sin by one who claimed to be saved?

I suppose you think it was just a mistake. Or lapse of judgement?

Ever read Hebrews 10:26-31? Or the ENTIRE book of 1 John?

Obviously not.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
You people claim to have the love of Christ but yet you scorn the likes of Steve Edmonds. Does he not need the love of Christ just like the rest of us? Would true followers of Christ treat him and speak of him the way most of you are? Do you think that Christ withholds grace from Edmonds?

Mmmm,
Did not Mr. Edmonds "scorn" his position in the community as a business man - did he not "scorn" his position as a "deacon" - did not he "scorn" his position as a "youth leader" and most of all, did not Mr. Edmonds "scorn" his very own wife and children

Of course Christ does not withhold His grace from Mr. Edmonds and of course he most definitely has the love of Christ and he has a network of followers like yourself who are helping him get his life back together.

Believers do not "scorn" him, but he is a man that we will look at forever and never "TRUST" nor 'RESPECT" and always be an individual that people will be cautious around.

He got CAUGHT -- the Lord saw his evil deeds! Whenever this man's name comes to our attention my immediate thoughts goes to the VICTIMS and the "scars" they have in their hearts for the body of Christ!

Anonymous said...

You all have a deceptive view of grace and have oviously never experienced it. I feel sorry for you all and pray that you will break yourselfs of you misunderstandings. I was there too and realize now how deceived I really was. You should really stop and consider what grace is. who gives it. why we get it.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if Christ would have the same opinions of Edmonds that you all do? Thank God he does not!!!

Anonymous said...

You all have a deceptive view of grace and have oviously never experienced it. I feel sorry for you all and pray that you will break yourselfs of you misunderstandings. I was there too and realize now how deceived I really was. You should really stop and consider what grace is. who gives it. why we get it.

September 1, 2009 11:23 AM

Grace is unmerited favor. We do NOTHING to earn it.

Only ONE tiny problem. There is a condition to salvation. It is not taught much anymore so many who profess Christ do not know about it. Jesus preached it. It was the very first thing he is recorded as preaching in two Gospels. It is required for forgiveness. It is called:

Repentance

Now, if I profess Christ and I am molesting children, I should really question my salvation. Why? Because salvation is a supernatural act of the Holy Spirit. We are convicted of our depravity and our need for a Savior. That is what being Born Again means. We are NEW creatures. We hate our sin because God hates our sin. We hate what God hates and we love what God loves. We fight our flesh daily. Even our thoughts are sinful.

So, if you are saying that Grace means no civil punishment for crimes against the state or even that it means no true repentance is necessary (saying sorry is not repentance) then you are preaching a different Gospel than the one in the Word.


Matt

Anonymous said...

You all have a deceptive view of grace and have oviously never experienced it. I feel sorry for you all and pray that you will break yourselfs of you misunderstandings. I was there too and realize now how deceived I really was. You should really stop and consider what grace is. who gives it. why we get it.

September 1, 2009 11:23 AM

You molested children, too? I am afraid I am not understanding where you are coming from. Cannot mr edmonds be forgiven while behind bars? Chuck Colson received grace behind bars.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if Christ would have the same opinions of Edmonds that you all do? Thank God he does not!!!

September 1, 2009 11:30 AM

You think Christ was not angry while Edmonds was molesting the 'least of these'? What did Christ himself say about millstones?

Can Edmonds be forgiven? Yes, if there is real repentence. Only time will tell. Best to keep him away from temptation. Unless of course, you think the kids need to be necessary victims of your view of grace. why not let him babysit your kids.

That would prove you mean what you are preaching to us about Grace.

Anonymous said...

This is not to say that any man/woman cannot not repent and be truly saved: but that is the question ARE THEY TRULY SAVED!!! Only God knows this answer. For the rest there is the entire chapter of Romans (chp.1). Please read entire chapter, paying close attention to verses 18-32.

vs. 28 (in particular) "And as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which were not convenient;". The baseness of man follows to vs. 32.

Praise the Lord that He died on the Cross, shedding His Perfect Blood for us all. Even those of us who have never partaken of these sins, we, ALL HUMANITY, deserve hell, but through Jesus we are saved from it.

Anonymous said...

All you people are insane. Don't you know that everyone is going to heaven because of Christ's death and ressurection? Matt, you need to stop being such a fundie and come to the truth that the doctrine of eternal damnation is false. Even the Rev. Wade Burleson thinks more people will be in heaven than hell and he pals around with Paul Young who's a universalist.

Anonymous said...

12:42 - I believe that he was as disappointed with edmonds as he has been with you and me too.

Anonymous said...

"vs. 28 (in particular) "And as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which were not convenient;". The baseness of man follows to vs. 32."

You do realize that Paul is building an case...making an argument in Romans, right? Be very careful about proof texting Romans.

Are you saying that the Word is teaching here that God gave them over to reprobate mind and they are still saved during that time?

Please read all of Romans.

Many confuse the verses about 'only God can judge salvation'. What the Word is saying is that only God knows who will be saved in the end.

Otherwise there would be contradictions.

If it were not so, we would not have so many passages on judging fruit, problems in the church to be dealt with, etc.

There are many who do believe that folks can be saved and live like hellions, even molesting kids. But it negates being a New Creature in Christ and having godly sorrow for sin. Even the smallest sins.

That is another reason we see the teaching on millstones mentioned earlier. Causing a little believer to stumble is serious business. And if that is not what molesting is, I don't know what.

Matt

Anonymous said...

Just rehashing the studpidity that someone posted:

-----------------------------------
I would venture to say that the vast majority of those who post on here are:

* Not members of FBC, Jax.
* Do not attend church regularly or at all.
* Do not tithe.
* Are in no positions of leadership if they do attend church.
* Are usually among the group of people who complain about everything.
* Are blue collar types.
* Probably do not make over $50,000 a year.
* Usually complain about anyone in authority at any level in their lives.

Sad commentary isn't it?
-----------------------------------

Wow why would someone rudely stereotype WD posters like this?! Sure maybe a few people are like this but the majority aren't! And of course everyone who is a WD supporter is not a member of FBC Jax. Anyone who has a brain in their heads would leave that church. And its not a sad commentary. Its a lie!

Anonymous said...

"12:42 - I believe that he was as disappointed with edmonds as he has been with you and me too."

If someone is saved, they are also sanctified. There is never justification without sanctification. Or visa versa.

I do understand where you are coming from. Grace is definitly the most missapplied doctrine out there. Many view it as a license to sin. The entire book of 1st John is a way to understand how we should view 'walking in the light' and the subject of sin. Especially the last 2 chapters.

Read 1 Corin 5 to see how Paul instructed the church to handle such sin in the Body. Note that Paul is not teaching cheap grace but that the person be kicked out of the church so that he may be 'saved'. We, so many times, get in the way of the Holy Spirit working in a person's life with our doctrine of cheap grace.


Matt

Anonymous said...

Help! it's been a bad day here on the blog - some say we are "brain dead" and "insane" and "have no love" so this would be a good time for "Off Topic" to pop in and change the subject. :>)

BTW . . .thanks to "Thy Peace" for keeping us up to date with posting of the "Wartburg Watch" and "NAMB". . .suppose the authers of these blogs (like all of us) need to call a Neurologist in. :>)

Whatever, for sure one is never bored when reading comments on the "Watchdog". Very interesting the different personalities of people who write in!

Some of my "favorites" remind me of scripture verses I have not thought of for some time. Thanks for the memory recall.

Anonymous said...

Are blue collar types.
* Probably do not make over $50,000 a year.


That is very arrogant and ignorant too. I really think that the way you look down on people like that is sickening. OH so people who earn less than $50K and are blue collar are SAD and aren't speaking intelligently?

Goes to show why people don't support Mac, and why people like you do.

Anonymous said...

Ok,

What does blue collar and making less than 50,000 a year have to do with anything. Could you explain.

Pastor Chris

Anonymous said...

To Anon of 7:12 AM: You wouldn't be one of the "glory boys" down at the church would you? Whomever you are, You certainly reveal your own personality type....small and mean. You list eight points that you use to determine us bloggers "inferior" according to your standards. I take exception to all, but two are particulary glaring. You state that we bloggers are probably "Blue Collar workers". And that we probably do not make $50,000, yearly. I would say to you that MOST people (middle class) don't make $50,000, yearly. Since when is that a criteria for church attendance and/or questioning the leadership of any church. Again, money seems to be the (pardon the pun) GOLD STANDARD at the church. If all who give money down there were just the rich, then I would say you have a nice thing going. But, you have the $50,000, and less people giving MOST of the money which keeps YOUR church going for you. The second insulting point that you bring against us bloggers, many of whom profess on this blog to be members, is that we are probably BLUE COLLAR workers. Do you have something against "blue collar workers"? I suppose they are inferior to you and your "friends". You sir/mam are a SNOB. You certainly show why many people don't want to attend many mega churches. I would ask you: Where would you and your friends be without "blue collar workers"? Who would repair your car? Mow your lawn? Empty your garbage? I would render a guess that possibly you have never mowed your own lawn. Painted your own house. How shallow to denegrate hard working people such as "blue collar workers making less than $50,000, whether they go to your church, blog on this blog., or not. You be careful now and don't get your hands dirty doing any blue collar work, just "call someone else" to do it. That's the "sad commentary".

James 2 vs.2-5: "For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; vs.3 "And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Vs.4 "Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? vs.5 "Hearken, my beloved brethern, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?"

1Cor. chp.1 vs. 27-29 "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;" vs. 28. "And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are; vs.29. "That no flesh should glory in his presence."

Acts 10:vs 34: "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I percieve that God is no respecter of persons."

WD, sorry this is so long, I appreciate your posting it.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Readers - its not worth responding to ridiculous comments like the one about "blue collar" people, and salary figures. That is someone just trying to get under your skin, and not even worthy of a response.

That might not even be a FBC Jax member, or if it is, it is someone so immature that its not worth responding to.

Johnny D. said...

I was all done here with this particular thread. I think it must have a radioactive half-life.

Anyhow, to the cat that made the list about "blue collar," and "$50,000," etcetera, dude, I got news for you - you should change your name to Richard Head.

Couldn't resist, WD. Sorry.

Anonymous said...

Matt: Your comment to me "Be careful about proof texting Romans....Please don't put words in my mouth.....I meant what I said when I blogged. The Bible says what it means and means what it says... So do I. You are not the only one who STUDIES the Bible. Thanks.

Thy Peace said...

Not to belabor on the blue collar comment ...

I remember Pastor Mac Brunson in one sermon last year (about this time) mentioning about this very fact, that probably lot of the members are blue collar and were making under $50K. It was in one of his somber and reflective sermons, where he was mellow. He was thinking out loud about possibly the criticisms about money issues of tithing and possibly comments on this blog.

I did not take the comments to be negative. Given the state of economy and more than 10% rate of unemployment in the State of Florida, lot of people are suffering. But the surprising thing is that Fbc Jax has been able to close their budget to almost 95% of giving as per Mac Brunson, and that he was going to do (or did) a special offering for the reminder 5%. My guess is lot of members are giving sacrificially to close the gap.

It would have better for the Leadership to cut some of their expenses, rather than encouraging members to give more. This economy is going to drag for a while before it gets better.

Anonymous said...

Judging from your reactions I would say my comments about blue collar workers and all the other thoughts were right on target.

Your comments prove me to be true.

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