"I want to tell you something. You cannot convince me, that a big portion of the economic downturn in this country doesn't rest squarely on the shoulders of Christians who will not honor God with the tithe. When you come to the place in this country where only 2 to 3 percent of the people tithe that call themselves Christian, we should expect the judgment of God." Mac Brunson, 10/10/10------------
To me there is nothing more disgusting in Christianity than to watch a preacher misuse his position as a spiritual leader, and to misuse the Holy Bible for his own selfish ends to extract money from his congregation through fear, guilt, and intimidation.
I've called it out when Steve Gaines has done it, accusing his non-tithing congregants of being criminals dealing in stolen goods. I've called it out on this blog when Robert Jeffress at First Baptist Dallas advised his people to discount advice from their financial advisors and "slice off" a chunk of their personal assets to give to the building program as a means of getting closer to Jesus.
And I've called Mac Brunson out on it before, almost two years ago to the day, and I'm going to do it again.
On Sunday October 10, 2010, Brunson made the most spiritually abusive, careless remarks to his congregation that I think he's ever made regarding financial stewardship. There were several parts that I'll break up into separate blog posts. Below is the first excerpt:
The first remark he made is a rehash of his comments from October 2008, declaring that the economic downturn in America and in the world rests squarely on the shoulders of non-tithing Christians. Mac says we should expect the judgment of God on our country because only 2-3% of "people who call themselves Christians" actually tithe. As his proof text, he uses Haggai 1:10-11, and he assumes that how God dealt with Old Testament Israel in that situation translates directly over to Christians in the New Testament.
Is there anything more deplorable than a preacher blaming an economic recession on Christians who ARE obeying the Lord in their giving? This is making false accusations against the brethren. This is harming the saints of God. This is confusing those who know in their hearts that they are giving as the New Testament says, out of their resources, out of their time and energy, doing it cheerfully and generously, but maybe not at the 10% financial threshold. Mac heaps the guilt on their heads for our economic recession, blaming those lowly OTHER Christians that don't tithe like he does. How Pharisaical can you get? I'm now convinced that the Pharisees all wore giant cufflinks and had monogrammed cuffs.
And the church leaders sent ME a letter accusing ME of being divisive, of harming the fellowship, and unjustly criticizing the church?
In a way I feel sorry for preachers like Brunson. What a miserable existence as a pastor it must be to believe that 95% of the people you are trying to lead are robbing God Almighty and hindering your mighty God-called ministry at the church because they are stingy recalcitrants who have actually brought about economic recession through their disobedience. It must be awfully hard to have love for such cold-hearted, tightfisted people, who might not even be real Christians. No wonder pastors leave the ministry, who would want to pastor such evil people?
The truth is Brunson's accusation doesn't even stand up to historical scrutiny and common sense. It is well documented that the percentage of tithers has been pretty consistent among evangelicals for 100 years. So now all of a sudden God is condemning our country for non-tithers? Or maybe Brunson and Gaines convinced God recently that we're all thieves and He is obligated to punished us like He did Israel. Or is this just a guilt trip conveniently used by a pastor whose church is 2 million dollars behind budget, and who needs to raise a quick million for new carpet and pews to get ready for his "Pastor's Conference" in February?
If God is judging America for Christians and their financial stewardship, I'll go out on a limb and say it is not for non-tithers. It is more likely we face God's judgment because we are forking so much of our money over to mega-palaces of entertainment to enrich rock star preachers and to build grand and glorious buildings with new pews and carpet, and in so doing we are neglecting our brothers and sisters who are in need during recession, we are not caring for our families and their future, and we're failing to give to the poor and stand for justice as we are called to do under the New Covenant.
Did I just say that? You better believe I did.
--------------------
Stay tuned for the next post, "God Always Collects on What He is Owed", where Mac explains that God WILL get from Christians what they owe him, one way or another - roof leaks, car wrecks - if we don't tithe.
168 comments:
Another scolding to the membership while desperately clutching his hands together in his crisp white shirt with monogram and his cuff links. All he does is point his "big finger" and rant and rave. He's a sorry example for a preacher.
Can we at least use some logic? What can Mac tell us about the poor Christians in China? About the ones in prison? Is that God's judgement upon them? How would he explain that?
If he is going to link prosperity and God's material blessing in this country to the tithe for Christians then how does he explain George Soros? Bill Gates?
An even bigger problem is that BECAUSE the US is so wealthy and free, we really cannot tell who is a real Christian and who isn't. There is no persecution, no threat of losing everything or being put in prison for proclaiming His Name.
Mac is more Elmer Gantry than anything. He is not even intelligent enough to use basic logic or scriptural truth.
Read Luke 13. Let the Holy Spirit teach you truth. Mac is incapable and is leading you astray to a works prosperity. But the truth is, unless we all repent, we will perish. In the meantime, bad things happen so be prepared for eternal life.
"Thanks for the heads up Dr.Brunson.
And all of this time I was concerned about the nations sins of rampant sexual immorality,same sex marriage,idolatry,stealing,killing,disobedient to parents,selfishness,blaspheme,proud,greediness,braggards,slanderers,malice,untrustworthy,liars,rejecters of Christ,etc,etc,etc!
Thanks you pastor Brunson for straigthing me out about the source of our nations ills!
Simply unreal.....maybe Mac and Ergun can start their own church.
What deoes this tell you about the pew sitter that they would actually fall for this stuff? It tells us how biblically ignorant the Christian masses really are.
I would walk out because Mac is claiming a 'god' that does not exist because He would be a god who could be "paid off". It really is blasphemous.
Please study the NT and look to see that the Christians gave cheerfully to those in need.
ANSWER: All Christians in America should give 10% of their income to Churches and America will never have another problem!!!!!
I would strongly encourage the 97% of non-tithers at FBC JAX to leave the church and move to a different church where you are accepted cheerfully whatever the Spirit leads you to give. You will be freed from this bondage to guilt.
Maybe this will send a message to abusive preaching everywhere.
I look at this tithing doctrine as an obstacle for anyone entering a church. Lot of poor people who can not afford to tithe, will be put off from joining a church because of this hurdle.
Let's see now. Revolutinary War, people were probably tithing. Civil War people were probably tithing, WW1, people were probably tithing, WW2, people were probably tithing, 1920-30's depression people were probably tithing, l970's wage freeze, people were probably tithing, numerous weather disasters, people were probably tithing, 2000 World Trade Center attack, people were probably tithing. Current financial downturn, people still tithing.
Read entire chp. of Matt:24.
Matt:24:6: ":And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet".
John 16:33: "These things have I spoken ubto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have TRIBULATION; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world".
2 Cor.9:7 "Every man according as he purposethn in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity; for God loveth a cheerful giver".
Do preachers ever have anything NICE to say about the pew sitters? All I hear is abuse and ranting. It's all about what the people arn't doing. So what is the tithe supposed to do. My bible says it is supposed to help the down trodden, poor, hungry and sick. Not make millionaires of preachers. The way the tithe is preached today, the rich should just get richer because it is easy for them to give 10%, while the poor go hungry and cannot help themselves because they have nothing to give. They cannot give 10% of anything, so according to that scenario the poor will never have anything. I don't believe God demands this. My God ministered to the poor. According to many preachers, they treat the tithe like the "fair tax". I would be more inclined to give more if I weren't looking at millionaires demanding it, while seeing so many in need with noone in the church helping them!!!!
According to Mac's logic, the most sinful generation of Christian's must have been the first century church which was led by the apostles. They were after all persecuted the most: stoned, burned, tortured, etc.
Answer" If all Christians give 10% of their income to the churches, America will never have another problem, is that right?
The Republicans and Democrats should be happy to hear about this! Instead of blaming each other, they can blame the truly guilty-the Christians who aren't tithing, which is causing their God to be mad at them, which will cause him to let some awful thing happen to our country.
Couldn't that kind of talk cause people to maybe start believing it and turn on Christians and persecute them? Or at least say, "For God's sake, give the man your money in order to appease your wrathful God!!" Isn't this like Jonah? Jonah was the problem, so they threw him overboard to save themselves.
I think the gays will be happy to hear this too! They usually get blamed for it all.
The government, the bankers, the gays, etc. could all turn and point to the disobedient Christians! The Christians themselves have said it's their fault!
I've told my son to drop his macroeconomics class. Why bother, when all that we've learned about money supply, inflation, taxes, capital investment, etc. doesn't apply to our economic situation.
Mac should write "The Laws of Economics According to Jesus", and he could explain how God blesses those economies where people give 10% of their income, and he actively works behind the scenese (as he said in October 2008) to raise gas prices and hurt the economy when they don't give 10%.
Yes, I want to send my kids to FBC Academy, and have Mac teach them his laws of economics.
Quackery, I say.
I was just reading the title of your next post. So, Brunson IS portraying God as the godfather.
God as The Godfather-it's a lovely picture! I used to picture God as more like the Jimmy Stewart-like father. I guess that's not accurate, but it sure was more pleasant.
Lynn - you better believe it. It is very troubling. It must be another gospel, because I don't see Jesus as someone who is measuring our finances to see if we give 10%, and if not he is going to send an angelic "Moose and Rocco" out to punch holes in our roofs and make our kids crash their cars to punish us for not forking over to the God-father what is rightfully his.
It is sick stuff.
Somebody, somewhere in one of the posts stated that Steve Gaines makes in excess of $500,000 per year. I would just like to go on record as saying I do not believe that is true or if it is then he and Donna give away a substantial portion of that. I meant to post this sooner but I could not figure out how to work it in, so sorry for the delay.
Also I think that if the powers that be would just disclose it we would learn that his salary is not out of line. It’s the failure to disclose that gives the appearance of impropriety.
By the way, my salary is public information available online via a link on our local news paper’s website.
Dog, if you’ll let me I would like for you to post this in both the current and past topic. Thanks.
The disciples were commanded by Jesus to take shoes and a staff, no money. I would like to see some of these mega preachers start a mission trip without money and just see how far they can get from their gated homes.
Lydia Please! Mac is very, very intelligent. He is just also very manipulative and extremely greedy. His intelligence is used in an evil way - to exploit the sheep to serve his purposes (and pay his wife's Neiman's bill)
Jesus overthrew what tables in the temple? Was it the table of carpet, wine bottles, lamps, rugs, knives, swords, twine, figs, onions, etc, etc. No it was the table of "Moneychangers". Jesus never carried around money they had to go fish in order to pay the tax. I say to the preacher go fish. That Bible lesson then is appropriate today is it not?
The tv news earlier this week had some information regarding Bible knowledge. It pointed out that atheist, Jews, and some others knew more Bible answers than the Bible Belt Christians. Is it any wonder that these megas take advantage of the sheep who fail to read their Bibles much less study passages. A good verse that emphasizes this is " And the people would have it so". You get what you pay for.
I watched 15 seconds and had to turn it off. Watching the man sickens me. If you are having any problems in your life, WD, it is not because of this blog. It is because you watch and listen to Mac Brunson so much. I don't know how you do it. How can you stand to watch this bobble headed nerd stand up there in his business costume and belittle God's people.
The guy is such a whiner and complainer and criticizer. Man, he thinks this blog has people attacking the church. No one attacks the congregation of FBC jax like mac himself. He is a pathetic little man. But he is a millionaire so he must be telling the truth right? Where is Bernie Madoff. I have some money I want to invest.
Imagine how much more Madoff could have raised if people believed he was "God's man" and if they believed they could turn around our ecomony by giving money to him. And if they believed they were required to invest with him. Poor Bernie did it the hard way. Preachers just hold up the Bible, read stories/parables found in the Bible, and tell us we MUST give to them. And we do so...proudly...and criticize those that don't. What a great gig. Hey, maybe I am getting jealous now.
So let me get this correct. All those accidents where people are killed and injured in automobles, ships, trains, airplanes, motorcycles, bycycles, skateboards, football, swimming in the ocean, running, walking, being robbed in their homes, stores, banks are caused by unfaithful Christians. We better stay in our homes and bolt the door and get rid of our transportation vehicles to start with. But, then how would we get to the Big Church. This makes no sense at all. Improper verse, improper lesson and does not apply in our era. Jesus said if my people would humble themselves then we would hear from Him from Heaven. Humility and the fear of the Lord is on trial today, yesterday, and tomorrow not the tithe for crying out loud.
Tom...write down the date. I MOSTLY agree with you. I hate it when preachers make a jump like this. Because for example, I have always been a regular tither and as a rule give above the ten percent mandated in scripture. It's one thing I don't mess with. And yet, the industry I worked in for 10 years, Residential Mortgage banking, was plundered and devastated and I lost everything I owned. So God screwed up on that one or men who make broad jumps like this are just wrong.
I still don't think you should have entire blogs dedicated to attacking ministers and churches. But you were somewhat on point on this one.
I believe it is very hard down right impossible for anyone to know the certainty of God's judgement. Didn't Jobs three friends have to learn this the hard way? God accepted Jobs prayers rather than theirs and Job was the man who endured to the end. How silly for anyone to claim they know the judgement(s)of God. The prophets died years and years ago. Stick with your Bible and especially the New Testament. Bringing up Old Testament passages that dealt strictly with the Jews is totally off base.
Craig - that is a tragedy that you lost everything. You are a perfect example of the ridiculousness of Mac's argument. Did you lose it all because people were not tithing, and God took his judgment out on our economy and in the process ruined businesses and crushed people financially? Must we believe that fable, that concoction of a story by a preacher? Or is there an explanation that involves a combination of bad public policy, greed on the part of lenders and borrowers, a natural business cycle, money supply, inflation, etc. etc.
By the way...10% is not "mandated" in scripture, so you're wrong there. If you're going off of "mandates", you're about 13% short of the 23 1/3% required in the OT, so by a mandating standard you're still robbing God and you're still contributing to the downfall of our econony, so says Mac.
What you call "attack" I call exposure and discussion and analysis of not just FBC Jax, but modern evangelical Christianity.
What IS "attack", is what you and others have done to James White, who has done nothing but call for Ergun Caner to publicly repent for his decade of deceit.
I think when we talk about judgment we need to be sure we get the terms right. There is a difference between God's judgment, His correction, and just the results of living in a fallen world.
Like when 911 happened I was surprised at the preachers who came out as saying that this was the judgment of God on our nation. If I read the scriptures correctly this is the period of God's grace and His forbearance not of His judgment. When God's judgment comes it is unmistakable. This is not to say that God doesn't correct his children, He does, but not because they don't tithe. We are not O.T. Israel and in the N.T. God deals with individuals. Mac honestly believes God is judging our nation because only 2 or 3 percent of Christians tithe?
CraigD2599 said, “I still don't think you should have entire blogs dedicated to attacking ministers and churches.”
I think most if not all of us agree with your statement. I know I do and I also believe that these blogs would not exist if the churches and their leaders actually practiced what the Bible teaches. It does not matter how much you give, it does not matter if you actually obey the Biblical principles of tithes and offerings if you do not do as the Bible instructs.
First let me say I do not speak for God but it might very well be that God is not blessing because:
Matt 5:23-24 23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
Now you know one of the reason I am X Baptist, and so much happier.
There are so many more fake preachers just like him though and sadly millions of people who can not get their heads out of the Sand and continue to follow these deceivers.
Confession time. You know what, sadly I used to believe that junk. I was awoken one day when our CULT leader preach that the church had been robbed and the whole gist of his sermons was that we as a church stole material things from the church - but it was a slam against us saying we stole from GOD. That was it for me.
You know though, I give more now that I got away from the Baptist CULT Vulture I was listening to for years, and GOD still blesses me
So all you Baptist and others who site under CULT leaders such as MAC A RONI enjoy the ride because one day you will WAKE UP and think as I did and say
"What was I thinking"!
WishIhadknown: You are 100% correct. Taking the money and putting it in the offering plate without first being reconciled is the central theme of what the problem is all about. You nailed it, however most in the leadership of the church including the pastors will never expose themself as in the wrong. They just don't get it and probably never will.
"To me there is nothing more disgusting in Christianity than to watch a preacher misuse his position as a spiritual leader, and to misuse the Holy Bible for his own selfish ends to extract money from his congregation through fear, guilt, and intimidation."
Tom, your quote above is strictly YOUR OPINION! How do you know he is misusing his position? Do you know his heart or even that of your preacher on the westside? The same as it is HIS OPINION in the statement that he made to cause you to get your panties in a wad again.
How do you know that HIS OPINION is selfish? When I hear Brunson, your pastor, and I have attended your church before, or any of the other guys out there make statements like that I do not question their character, integrity or motives.
Last time I checked, you welcomed opinions even if they are different from yours. At the end of the day it is strictly your opinion. As far as the lost or unchurched world goes all of us are off our nut. But there again it is their opinion.
I still say that you should start taking online donations, quit your job and give it to BB, and start a revolution in Christendom. You can ignore all of the accolades you would receive from CNN, ABC, NBC, The View, John Stewart and the like if you wish. You can even only take the money it takes to live the modest and chaste lifestyle you claim anyone in ministry should live.
You don't even have to use a marketing company since you have thousands of us on the blogosphere to promote your righteous crusade.
"Lets get to work" unless you dont think you can make a living at it. What do you say? BB will need your job since his will be eliminated when WBC, FBC and the like are turned into homeless shelters.
"I would strongly encourage the 97% of non-tithers at FBC JAX to leave the church and move to a different church where you are accepted cheerfully whatever the Spirit leads you to give."
They would have to go to the Metropolitan Community Church or some other "NON_BAPTIST" denomination. The Methodists and the Presbyterians don't require anything. That would be the best churches to go to. As a matter of fact they don't care if you even show up. I'll bet they don't even send letters requesting a million dollars either.
Mac is wrong, of course, but only because he did not go far enough.
God is causing the richest country in the world to become a little less rich (but still the richest country in the world) because we are not giving 10% (23% is too hard to calculate) AND because some ignorant church members still choose to designate where the money should go.
I know I am right about this because I heard Steve Gaines say it from the pulpit.
Only "God's Man" who has been "set aside" and "anointed" can know the will of the Holy Spirit and thus properly dispense the tithe.
An ignorant lay person might be so foolish as to direct the money toward the poor. There is no precedent for that in scripture!
Only the senior pastor (who is clearly established in scripture -although I can't give you a verse) knows that the tithe should be spent almost totally on the church building (which is also clearly established in the NT - although I can't give you a verse), pastor salaries and overhead.
Who are you (ignorant lay-person) to think that you could go directly (and boldly) to the Father and have communion with God. You need a professionally trained clergy member for that.
If this continues, that heresy "the priesthood of all believers" may crop up again.
Heaven forbid!
"As far as the lost or unchurched world goes all of us are off our nut."
Not exactly the way I would of phrased it but I have to give you a hearty and heart felt AMEN!
Now which hand is it I'm suppose to raise?
Indeed, admitting when we are wrong is something all of us find very hard to do. Dr. Gray Allison told a story on himself that I think illustrates this point.
He and his wife were traveling in Indiana on their way to Chicago. They reached a turn off. Dr. Gray insisted that the proper turn was to the right, while his wife said, “no dear, you need to turn left.” Dr. Gray went on to say, “I knew I was right, I knew the road curved around and eventually took us back toward I Chicago. I absolutely knew I was right. I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. So I did what every man would do in the same situation, I turned right. My wife never said a thing.
I knew I was in trouble when I saw the first mileage marker saying Detroit is 150 miles away. Now it does not take a geographical genius to know Detroit is the opposite direction from Chicago when traveling through Indiana. My wife said nothing.
Shortly after that I saw the next mile maker, Detroit 125 miles away. Ok, I knew at that point I was wrong but I did not want to admit it and I had to think of some way to make myself right and her wrong. She still said nothing.
Do you know we were 50 miles away from Detroit before I finally turned around and headed back to Chicago. I had taken us 200 miles out of our way just so I would not have to admit my mistake and do you know my wife just sat there and never said a word to me.
I don’t know how true the story actually is but it does illustrate a point.
Anon thank you for being so nice.
Sorry Tom I put this in the wrong place, it's so confusing trying to remember where things are supposed to go. Now, where are my car keys?
Anon - yes, absolutely, all my opinion, every bit of it. I admit it.
I am giving my opinion, criticizing Brunson's opinion that I and other non-tithing Christians have caused the economy to crash.
Surely you agree that Brunson is just giving his opinion, and thus I am giving my opinion criticizing his opinion.
But Brunson also uses the Bible to back up his opinion that I think is wrong and self-serving, that the two verses in Haggai is biblical proof that I and other Christians who don't give 10% have caused God's judgment to fall on America. That is dangerous, false doctrine from a man who should know better (my opinion), and I hope others open their eyes and agree with my opinion that his opinion is absolutely absurd, and self-serving (my opinion).
Why do you keep mentioning "BB"? I assume you mean Bob Barton. Why not say his name? Bob is a grown man. Do you have some beef with Bob Barton because he is my friend? What you are saying about jobs and Barton and CNN doesn't even make sense.
You sound bitter and angry, to me.
But that is just my opinion.
:)
I believe some of the PHD's in History need to take some Economic Courses. A free market will take care of itself according to Adam Smith. Supply and demand curves explain all of this with or without governmental actions. What has happened is that the government has made this mess with their overspending, stimilus, lightening up on mortgage rates, aiding the takeover of Banks, GM, Chrysler, etc. If some of those entities had taken the correct chapter 13 they would have come out better and been less tied to higher union wages $70 per hour which is about three times the normal high hourly income that most of us make. Now the church spokesman tells us that the church is failing without more money being poured into it. Another stimilus if you please. Like the government there is no end to either their spending.
I heard one of the megas and I don't recall his name but he said his wife took care of the checkbook and all the finances because he couldn't add or something like that. Now we know why they have no idea of economics 101 or 410.
Anon - also, instead of coming here and talking nonsense about Bob Barton and swapping jobs and CNN and such, why not address the issue here on this blog.
Do you agree with Brunson's assertion? Why or why not? Should we take verses like that out of Haggai and apply them today to say categorically that those who don't give 10% of their income have caused God to judge America?
Please stay on task, leave Bob Barton out of it, and address the issue.
Thanks.
How do the blessings/cursings of the Old Testament tie in with the New Testament?
Good Answer:
http://www.equip.org/broadcasts/questions-and-answers-with-hank20100710?msource=EC101015WKLY&tr=y&auid=7172619
Tom, I was addressing the issue.
No, I do not agree with that statement that Brunson, and all of the other tithing preachers of all denominations.
Whether verses should be taken one way or the other is like I said before- OPINION!
Everyone is entitled to their OPINION and everyone else is free to disagree with that OPINION.
Your OPINION is Brunson and everyone else is WRONG!
Their OPINION is that theirs is CORRECT!
It matters not how many folks support your OPINION or those dissenting OPINIONS. Trying to tarnish someones character based on their OPINION that is contrary to your OPINION does not mean anything.
You sincerely believe that your OPINION is correct.
Those on the other side of your OPINION believe that they are sincerely correct.
Both sides can produce documentation that in their OPINION justifies their position. Just look at all of the political ads and all of the Fact Checking folks do on it them and some things are based on fact and other portions of the ads are based on OPINION!
At the end of the day 99.999999% of most preachers sincerely believe the same as it is my OPINION that Brunson sincerely believes.
It is also in my OPINION that you and others on this blog sincerely believe your position.
And in my OPINION, Bob Barton is very relevant to this discussion in that he is dependent on money that folks tithe, give, donate, or whatever term that in your OPINION is correct, and if folks stopped giving, he would have to find another way to pay the bills.
Just my OPINION, though!!! :)
"Whether verses should be taken one way or the other is like I said before- OPINION!"
I had a Buddhist friend that thought that the verse that states that the only way to the father was through the son Jesus Christ could be interpreted in any number of ways. He could hold onto to Buddhism that way and embrace Christianity simultaneously.
I told him that he was taking the verse out of context (removing that one verse from the entire context of the Bible's message of original sin and the promise of a coming Messiah).
But I guess I was wrong.
That was just my opinion.
You're playing games.
Let's just deal with some common sense facts that the vast, vast majority of Christians would agree on:
1. Not everyone gives 10% or more to their church for a variety of reasons. Some can't afford it, some are poor stewards of their money, some are greedy.
2. The God of this universe has not condemned this country because he looks and sees not enough people are forking over 10% of their income to religious 501(c)3 organizations. That is absolutely ludicrous - my opinion, but the vast, vast majority of Christians would agree with me.
3. Mac Brunson states categorically that 2. is true. And he uses the Bible as his justification, and he uses his spiritual authority to proclaim it.
4. Therefore, I wrote a blog article criticizing Brunson for making statements in the pulpit that are not true and that are harmful to the body of Christ.
No opinions there. Facts.
Here's an opinion, and it has to do with motives. It is my opinion that Brunson and those like him do this, so they can either get more money from their congregation, or it makes them feel good to accuse the stingy church members that they don't think are giving enough money. Opinion.
And none of the above has anything to do with Bob Barton. Fact.
You're bringing his name up on this blog to try to hurt him and connect him to me. Opnion.
I'll go out on a limb also and say that 95% of the people at First Baptist Church listening to Mac say this know he is absolutely full of it.
It is one thing to think that the Bible "mandates" tithing, as Craig said earlier. There are a fair number that believe that.
It is a completely different matter to then say, ok, since so few of us are tithing, God has passed judgment on our country, and has actively tried to wreck our economy and hurt people. That is what Brunson's position is. He said it in 2008, and he reiterated it last Sunday, and he wants his people to believe it too.
But you would be hard-pressed to find people at FBC Jax, or anywhere in the SBC that would agree with him. It is nonsense.
I think he stands pretty much alone on that one.
And the purpose of this post is to get people who might be influenced by Mac's preaching, to get them to see that Mac is preaching nonsense in this matter, and I hope they agree with me and the many others posting here. I consider it spiritual abuse for a preacher to say such nonsense to his congregation.
So I will offer the facts, and my opinion.
"I want to tell you something. You cannot convince me,"
Tom relax a bit. I know Bob as well if not better than you and am not trying to hurt him or connect him with you. Just using him as an example since we both know and love him and his family as one who is and has been supported by folks giving to the ministries where he has been involved.
When I listen to your post and read your quote Brunson statement comes across as an opinion. i.e. "You cannot convince me" as opposed to saying "Christians not tithing IS the reason God has removed his blessings on the land.
I listened to your post and read his statement and cannot see where you think that he categorically is making the statement in the form you express.
Are you saying that your previous pastors were wrong
That picture of Mac looks like he is about to be beaten up on the playground by the popular kids and is clasping his hands together saying "please don't beat me up again." Well, now he has his revenge. Rich, millionaire, celebrity, "God's man", author, bully, mega pastor. You showed us Mac. Maybe you can lighten up now. Love, compassion, sympathy, empathy, concern, kindness... and oh by the way, lose the initials on your sleeve and the cuff links. You are a little pretentious looking and over dressed.
OK Let me try this another way. Does Hebrews 7 support paying 10% as a tithe?
If so, how? If not, why? Discussion please.
Wouldn't people get a little offended at being blamed for the U.S. economy because they aren't tithing?
It's ridiculous, yes, but also insulting.
I'd find another church if I heard that stuff-one where I wasn't put on a guilt and fear trip each Sunday morning. Are they masochists? Do they think he's right? Do they enjoy being insulted?
FACT: To teach our children, and the generation of lost folks Mac is trying to reach, that God will hurt us and make bad things happen to us individually and as a nation if we don't "perform" to His liking is dangerous teaching. This kind of teaching is why churches die. And why generations are lost. "Come and see. Come and give! Come and conform and perform or else God will get you one way or the other. Come to a life of bondage." The Catholic church is chief in this teaching.
Jesus taught the opposite. FACT!
Another thing all of us should be able to agree on: Many people do not go to church or listen to the gospel message because they believe the preacher is just after their money. Rightly or wrongly this is what millions of lost people, and millions of Christians, believe to be true. So shouldn't we then go out of our way to make sure that when they do attend, whatever we do, let's not go after their money, relentlessly, month after month, sermon after sermon and then give an invitation at the end of the service. Please. Don't do that preachers. Stop it. Jesus
Lydia Please! Mac is very, very intelligent. He is just also very manipulative and extremely greedy. His intelligence is used in an evil way - to exploit the sheep to serve his purposes (and pay his wife's Neiman's bill)
October 15, 2010 11:02 AM
Intelligence with a worldly perspective is intelligence from an eternal perspective. Better to have godly wisdom which Mac does not or else he would not make potentially blasphemous declarations about God's judgement. We best be careful when telling folks what God causes or does not cause on this earth.
John Wylie has it correct about God's judgement: When God's judgment comes it is unmistakable.
You won't have to guess.
And in my OPINION, Bob Barton is very relevant to this discussion in that he is dependent on money that folks tithe, give, donate, or whatever term that in your OPINION is correct, and if folks stopped giving, he would have to find another way to pay the bills.
___________________________________
True. But this also is true for John Blount, Kevin King, Trey Brunson, Debbie Brunson, et al. So what is your point in bringing up Bob, who will not receive one dime of what Brunson is able to beat out of his sheep?
And speaking of the above...I wonder if all of them are tithers since I know all of them have had medical issues, car crashes in their families, loss, problems with kids, etc. just like the rest of us. Maybe the problems they have in their families and health are due to God "getting" it from them one way or another.
There is nothing wrong with Brunson;s comment. I suspect the people that don't like it are the people that don't like to give. Scratch that. I know it.
C.T.
Hey Anon- why do you call the WD "Tom" as if you are on a first name basis with him. Do you know him? If so, why don't you post your name so he can respond to you by your first name also. Why are so many AFRAID to engage Tom and others on this blog with their real names. COWARDS? Nah.
"I think he stands pretty much alone on that one."
Well, he's always got Pat Robertson.
"If some of those entities had taken the correct chapter 13 they would have come out better and been less tied to higher union wages $70 per hour which is about three times the normal high hourly income that most of us make. "
Think about this one. A friend of mine has a master's degree and makes about 50,000 grand a year and is in her 40's.
She has a brother a bit older who was MMD (Mild mentally disabled) who did NOT go to college but got a job on the assembly line at one of the big car companies. When he retired a few years back after 25 years, he was making 150,000 per year. No kidding. He took a buy out to retire and has full health benefits.
What is wrong with this picture?
And we bailed out GM? It would have been best to let them bankrupt as you said. That is the "real" market.
"Therefore, I wrote a blog article criticizing Brunson for making statements in the pulpit that are not true and that are harmful to the body of Christ."
Although it is your opinion on the truthfulness of his statements, you cannot convince me that the majority of evangelical churches believe and teach, push, cajole, threaten, coerce, or what ever term you wish to use, teach the same things on tithing.
Even beloved pastors like the Lindsays, Vines, Youngs, etc. during their entire ministry totally believed what, in their opinion, the Scripture taught in regards to giving.
And you and I both agree that the majority of people give absolutely nothing and a few give 2-3% and relatively few give 10% or better.
At the end of the day, you nor anyone else will change any pastor, priest, elder, etc mind in regards to this issue.
Does that make them charlatans for their sincere beliefs. No! Does it make you and anyone else who agrees with you a scumbag? No!
At the end of the day both sides for the most part sincerely believe their respective position and can provide documentation that in their opinion supports their beliefs.
We will be having this discussion as well as many more till Jesus comes. And that is why in eternity "He will wipe away every tear" because at that time we will all be crying for the opportunities that we wasted when we stand before Jesus at the marriage feast and He shows us how truly petty we all were. :(
I can't keep the Anons straight, but I guess I'm addressing the one that likes to call me Tom, and refer to Bob Barton.
"Although it is your opinion on the truthfulness of his statements, you cannot convince me that the majority of evangelical churches believe and teach, push, cajole, threaten, coerce, or what ever term you wish to use, teach the same things on tithing."
I don't know if you are connected to FBC Jax, but this is delusional. I'm not even speaking in this blog post about the tithing doctrine itself - I'm speaking of the EXTRA leap that Mac is now making, that the "sin" of not giving 10% to his 501(c)3 organization is so heinous that the God of the universe is causing, CAUSING our economy to crash. It is THIS view that I am certain 95% of the people at FBC Jax would agree with me is total and complete rubbish. So no, the majority of evangelical churches do NOT believe this as Mac does.
Mac crosses into heresy, in my opinion, when he preaches this.
"Even beloved pastors like the Lindsays, Vines, Youngs, etc. during their entire ministry totally believed what, in their opinion, the Scripture taught in regards to giving."
Delusional. This is NOT what Vines believes or Lindsay, that God is striking down our economy because of non-tithers.
"At the end of the day, you nor anyone else will change any pastor, priest, elder, etc mind in regards to this issue.
Does that make them charlatans for their sincere beliefs. No! Does it make you and anyone else who agrees with you a scumbag? No!"
What makes Mac a charleton, is if he continues to tell his people that because they don't tithe, they care the cause of the economic crash. The leadership have a big problem on their hands with Mac if he continues to push this. You can minimize it, and say that everyone else believes it, that is just Mac's opionion...but he is teaching it as truth out of scripture! This is WRONG!
I will never, ever believe it is "petty" to call out ministers who are spiritually abusive and teach false doctrine in the pulpit.
Defend, minimize all you want. Mac is teaching false doctrine on this issue, and to make it worse it is self-serving and spiritually abusive.
Wish,
I answered your comment in the older thread. (Just now catching up.) Since you reposted it here, I've deleted that one and will respond here.
Gray Allison told a story on himself that I think illustrates this point.
He and his wife were traveling in Indiana on their way to Chicago. They reached a turn off. Dr. Gray insisted that the proper turn was to the right, while his wife said, “no dear, you need to turn left.” Dr. Gray went on to say, “I knew I was right, I knew the road curved around and eventually took us back toward I Chicago. I absolutely knew I was right. I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. So I did what every man would do in the same situation, I turned right. My wife never said a thing.
I knew I was in trouble when I saw the first mileage marker saying Detroit is 150 miles away. Now it does not take a geographical genius to know Detroit is the opposite direction from Chicago when traveling through Indiana. My wife said nothing.
Shortly after that I saw the next mile maker, Detroit 125 miles away. Ok, I knew at that point I was wrong but I did not want to admit it and I had to think of some way to make myself right and her wrong. She still said nothing.
Do you know we were 50 miles away from Detroit before I finally turned around and headed back to Chicago. I had taken us 200 miles out of our way just so I would not have to admit my mistake and do you know my wife just sat there and never said a word to me.
IF that story is true, that's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard! Some stubborn man knowingly drives for ALMOST TWO HOURS in the wrong direction (and then back) just so he won't have to admit he was wrong or I think, more to the point, that his wife was right? (Is she the vocal "a MEN! A men!" woman?) Either way, if it's a true story I'd be embarrassed to admit it, and if it's not, he's lying. Neither option is admirable or particularly encouraging.
(Edited because I do know how to spell.)
In Ergun Caner's sermons, he talks about the "scales" in Islam. A works based system.
Apparently there are "scales" in Christianity.
Jesus has a financial scale, and one one side is 10% of your income (gross or net?) and on the other side is donations...apparently not to the poor or the Red Cross or to Haiti, but to the 501(c)3 that you are a "member" of.
And if your scale is found wanting, and you don't measure up, Jesus has a heavenly Moose and Rocco that will "get" the money from you. He will punch holes in your roof, and even cause your kids car to crash.
This is the gospel according to Mac Brunson and FBC Jax, and that is a false gospel. It is the gospel of Channel 13 on cable, and it is a false gospel.
Too bad people are drinking it in and are supporting it. What a sad day.
So New are you having a bad day or something? I don’t know if the story is true or not, who knows if when a man gets up in the pulpit and tells a story if it’s true or just a “preacher’s story.” The story is just a commentary on the human condition and how hard some people find it to say “I’m wrong.” I know a lot of people and men in particular who go to extraordinary lengths to blame everyone but themselves so that they don’t have to admit they made a mistake. I think that sounds a little like someone we both know?
No the woman is the woman who amen’s loudly or at least I don’t think she is.
On another note, isn’t MB’s declaration about the judgment of God taking God’s name in vain?
Re taking God's name in vain. I had to speak up cause I know someone who says the same thing you seem to be saying. My friend says that "speaking for God" is taking God's name in vain.
And so many people LOVE to speak for God.
Sometimes the irony of it all is that people still go to Bellevue, FBC Jax, and FBC Dallas to listen to this stuff week after week - thousands of them, by the way.
I don’t know if the story is true or not, who knows if when a man gets up in the pulpit and tells a story if it’s true or just a “preacher’s story.”
Nope, no bad day here. It's Friday! I just thought, if it really happened that way, that was one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. That's almost Darwin Award worthy. Seriously, who would knowingly keep driving 100 miles in the wrong direction before turning around? I understand the point, and I suppose it's a good one, although a better lesson would be when you make a mistake to immediately own it and correct it instead of delaying the inevitable. I just can't imagine anyone actually doing that. And then admitting it publicly? Awk... ward!
Personally, I don't care who the preacher is, I don't excuse lying as "just preacher stories" (or "fish stories" if you're a layman). Unless the story is obviously parabolic or a joke... as in... "you've heard the one about... ," your audience should have the expectation that the story you're telling as fact is indeed factual. Not "embellished," not fabricated, not an urban legend, but true. "Preacher stories" are what we hear from Ergun Caner and Steve Gaines. I thought Gray Allison was above that sort of thing, so that left me to believe it was a true story which left me scratching my head at the absurdity of someone doing something like that. That's all I was saying.
So you know the "a MEN, A men" lady I'm talking about? She's an older lady, and I don't think I've ever seen her, but boy have I heard her! She sits near the front and loudly "amens" ad nauseum through the whole sermon, and it's always in pairs with the emphasis on a different syllable each time. So it's "a MEN, A... men!" over and over and over with the second "A" hanging anticipatorily in the air for a moment before free-falling into the "men." Someone told me that was GA's wife.
America despertley needs man of god in the pulpit. Make believe pastors, hint, are not going to save people in this ever changing world. If there was men of god in the pulpit money would not be an issue, every need would be taken care of.
New BBC Open Forum said...
///////////
Pray tell, why are you posting here and nothing on your own blog?
Steve Gaines got your tongue?
http://newbbcopenforum.blogspot.com/
Mac is a prophet! HE stands for truth, lives the truth, and tells the truth! I sit near the aMen lady and there are alot of times that its all I can do to sit there and not want to run and shout! THAT MAN CAN PREACH!!!
When the Man of God stands behind the pulpit of God and preaches the Word of God to the People of God....they BETTER LISTEN!
HE CAN GET US OUT OF THIS RECESSION!
Anonymous said...
Mac is a prophet! HE stands for truth, lives the truth, and tells the truth! I sit near the aMen lady and there are alot of times that its all I can do to sit there and not want to run and shout! THAT MAN CAN PREACH!!!
When the Man of God stands behind the pulpit of God and preaches the Word of God to the People of God....they BETTER LISTEN!
HE CAN GET US OUT OF THIS RECESSION!
------------------------------
Then tell us why it is when trouble comes to the Mac's household , he calls it a
Spiritual Battle
but here, when it is happening to others he calls it the "Judgment of God"?
Awww, anon 9:13...
Wow, you miss me? Why, thank you! I'm touched!
Actually I don't owe you an explanation for when or what I choose to post on the NBBCOF, but in a nutshell, I've got plenty of material and little time right now. Maybe life will slow down a little one of these days so I can get back to it. I'm not gifted to be able to churn out a thoughtful, insightful article every 2 or 3 days like our gracious host here does. Until then I'd be happy to publish a guest post if anyone's interested. Maybe "wish" or another former BBCer would like to step up. Anyone is welcome to throw their hat into the ring.
In the meantime, you'll find almost 4 years worth of archives there for your perusal. I was looking through the archives the other day and had actually forgotten about some of those articles.
We have only hoped and prayed Brunson was not a make believe corporate pastor. True, the truth is an illusion to the ungodly
"There is nothing wrong with Brunson;s comment. I suspect the people that don't like it are the people that don't like to give. Scratch that. I know it."
I love to give to where the Holy Spirit leads and it is never to a dead materialistic building/organization.
Out of your ignorance, you think it is about giving a specific percentage to a non profit org that calls itself a church. The true church is not a building or legal organization but individuals where the Holy Spirit resides.
In fact, giving to such an entity could very well be sinful. Especially since they compel giving by twisting scripture for the New Covenant. Jesus Christ wants us to care for one another and those in need.
America despertley needs man of god in the pulpit. Make believe pastors, hint, are not going to save people in this ever changing world. If there was men of god in the pulpit money would not be an issue, every need would be taken care of.
October 15, 2010 8:49 PM
Actually, the "pulpit" is the problem. There is no such thing as sacred furniture. They need to come down OFF the stages. And we need to stop putting them there. Too many are not growing spiritually past the guy on the stage behind the piece of furniture. You have the best Teacher, the Holy Spirit. Now, get to studying.
Sometimes the irony of it all is that people still go to Bellevue, FBC Jax, and FBC Dallas to listen to this stuff week after week - thousands of them, by the way.
October 15, 2010 7:49 PM
There is a reason. Anyone know what it is?
Amen! How do these preachers come up with such nonsense? His funding must be low this month.
Someone asked why thousands sit and listen to this stuff week after week. I'd love to hear the answer. Here are possibilites:
They know preachers come and go, but they've gone to this church forever and that's where the status people go, or that's where their friends are.
They believe whoever's up there ranting is actually speaking for God, so who are they to question what God's telling this man to say?
"Someone asked why thousands sit and listen to this stuff week after week. I'd love to hear the answer. Here are possibilites:"
It could be that they like the style being presented and interpret the scripture about tithing different than you.
Not everyone likes a warm and cuddly sermon. If all churches were like how you wanted them we would not need so many with different styles to reach a culture of different styles.
I heard a preacher recently (not my pastor) say that if a church ain't using southern gospel music they have simply gone to entertaining and not worshiping. In my opinion, he got it wrong but I do believe we could fill a church up if we offered a southern gospel concert every Sunday. We would give them an hour or so to do their thing but complain if the preacher went over 20 minutes.
This event I was at (I think I was the youngest there), is where I saw seniors sit for 3.5 hours listening to loud music and repetitive songs (two things they complain about in the church I attend) all because it was their style.
If you don't like pulpit slamming, this is how it is preaching; there are plenty of churches to fit you. That's what is so great about our culture. If you don't like your gospel with pickles then you can go somewhere pickles aren't served.
Ben - I agree.
That is why it is important for people to know what is being preached in the pulpits.
This sermon was preached on Sunday night. I hope that this blog serves to warn others of what he is preaching and how he views non-tithers. That way those who really agree with him can go to his church, and those who are concerned that a pastor holds these views, well, they can tolerate it or they can go elsewhere.
Me thinks there aren't too many people in Christianity today who share the view that non-tithing Christians are to blame for the worst recession in several generations and that our recession is the judgment of God for non-tithers.
Some like southern gospel, yes.
But not many like heretical, self-serving teachings on finances.
"This sermon was preached on Sunday night. I hope that this blog serves to warn others of what he is preaching and how he views non-tithers. That way those who really agree with him can go to his church, and those who are concerned that a pastor holds these views, well, they can tolerate it or they can go elsewhere."
But you are doing more than that. You are speaking down about the preacher and those who enjoy his style.
Here is an example:
"But not many like heretical, self-serving teachings on finances."
Not many - but some like heretical...
Which of those in attendance like listening to heresy? Is this heresy because it differs from your present interpretation? Let's be honest, many men of God have stood in pulpits and preached the tithe. These were God fearing men. Some preached it boldly, some with soft words, others with yelling and screaming and probably some in every gap in between. If it is heresy, then lets expose all men of all styles. Not just those you think are self serving.
Let's start with FBC Jax. If you are right then:
Vines preached heresy.
The Lindsay's preached heresy.
I know you liked their style but style is not the issue. The issue is, is it truth? If the tithe is a lie then lets call all men who preach the tithe (past and present), teachers / preachers of heresy.
If you are correct on the tithe then we must assume that those God fearing men who pastored FBC Jax in the past either:
1 - Did not have the boldness to declare the truth.
2 - Did not have the insight to know the truth.
If you know of another reason, I'd like to hear it. Did these men listen to other men or God when the subject of tithing needed to be dealt with?
Ben,
I think you're right. I grew up with Independent Baptist preaching. I think some people like their preachers to be quite authoritarian. They see that as strength. If they didn't like it, they would go to a more liberal church and listen to someone say how much Jesus loves you.
So actually the preacher up there is reflective of who the people in the pews are. Otherwise, like you said, they would leave and find a preacher who's more in line with their own thinking.
So unless the congregation at FBC Jax all goes away, we will know that they are happy with the pastor they have.
New BBC,
You're reaction to the "preacher" story and mine we're identical. No way it's true. I haven't got time for that kind of carp, it's insulting to our intelligence. But the fact of the matter is, some folks just eat this up.
But here's another interesting thing-if the people are there mostly because they enjoy that type of preaching, okay.
So they enjoy him getting onto them about tithing, but yet most of them don't actually tithe as a result.
So listening to him talk about it is an end in itself? Because they don't actually act on what he's saying.
OR they generally like his style and simply ignore him when he gets on tithing rants for a period of time. Eventually he'll get onto other topics that they do enjoy hearing?
They know preachers come and go, but they've gone to this church forever and that's where the status people go, or that's where their friends are.
They believe whoever's up there ranting is actually speaking for God, so who are they to question what God's telling this man to say?
October 16, 2010 5:26 AM
Good answer. They don't question things as a Berean would.
They think they know the bible because of SS and listening to preachers for years and they think they know truth. Chances are very good that most attending have never studied it in context, alone. Chances are even better that most never read it at home.
On another front, they have always gone to the church or their parents did. Some even think they are saved because they GO to church. Some think they are saved because they were baptized as a child.
I used to write surveys for churches so I have some experience in this topic.
Most cannot even tell you what Salvation means in terms of their present life.
So unless the congregation at FBC Jax all goes away, we will know that they are happy with the pastor they have.
October 16, 2010 8:27 AM
Not necessarily. Many will stay who cannot stand Brunson because they have always gone there and cannot face looking for another church. It is like the couple that cannot stand each other but never bother to divorce for whatever reasons. They think highly of themselves for staying together and being miserable. This is actually taught in many churches. It never occurs to the leaders to teach that the misery is a sign of sin for both parties and must be dealt with.
Just don't divorce. Period. Live in misery and hate if you must but it is a bigger sin to get the piece of paper.
That kind of thinking. However, it takes years for a long time church member to come to grips with that reality about their "new" pastor. The honeymoon period is very long and by that time, he has firmly planted himself there and has influential supporters.
And keep in mind, Mac comes from the SBC elite. So that honeymoon period is even longer. Most are enamoured with his pedigree because they worship men instead of Christ.
These are just some examples of why the institutional church is such a joke and has nothing to do with a Body of true believers.
Anon, 12:26,
Giving to the church is sinful? Hmmm...that's a new one. It's also a pretty ignorant statement.
Giving to the church is sinful? Hmmm...that's a new one. It's also a pretty ignorant statement.
October 16, 2010 9:34 AM
It depends on how one defines the ekklesia and whether you define it from the scripture.
You probably define it as a building where "God's People Meet" and call it "God's House" as many erroneously do. That is ignorant of what scripture teaches in the New Covenant. But, it is typical.
Ben - it is tiring to have to explain it over and over again to you.
Homer, Vines, or anyone else that has ever stepped in the pulpit at FBC Jax - they have never taught that God views the sin of "not tithing" as a special sin, a national sin, that brings the judgment of God on a nation. That God views it worse than the sin of homosexuality - it is special according to Brunson, and God has already judged our nation because of NOT TITHING.
Then, as we'll see in the next post, God is apparently the Godfather, who will make you pay if you don't tithe by causing leaking roofs and the kids' cars to crash. "Pay me now or pay me later" is how we should view God, according to Mac.
I'll call this heresy, and I'll call it spiritual abuse.
I know FBC Jax folks read this, I'd like a few to post here agreement with their pastor, and perhaps maybe a defense of his views.
The SBC is spiritually dead as an entity. There are pockets of true believers within the rank and file but overall, it is spiritually dead.
It is a shame to continue to support a political organization that is now teaching people to follow men instead of Christ. It was not always like this in the SBC. there was a time long ago that most knew they were part of the Holy Priesthood and believed in soul competency: As in each individual is responsible before God.
the SBC did not promote the following of men to the degree they do now. For the last 30 or so years, it has been all about 'great men of God' instead of about Christ. (There are NO great men of God. Only lowly humble sinners saved by Grace who are now new creations and very lowly and humble...if saved)
A good indicator of how it has changed is to look at who the leadership has been for the last 20 years and then look at the percentage those leaders churches gave to CP. There are lots of excuses as to why the large church giving is so low. Both Johnny Hunt and Kevin Ezell have given big time excuses as their church does missions on it's own, etc.
Ok, then why be in leadership of the SBC whose main purpose for existing is the CP?
"They don't question things as a Berean would."
Or maybe they do and come to a different conclusion and that is why you would say such a thing about them.
If someone believes differently than you do does that mean they don't search scripture daily with all readiness in mind, whether those things were so...?
Do you get to be the final word because you claim to be Berean? I don' think so.
"They think they know the bible because of SS and listening to preachers for years and they think they know truth. Chances are very good that most attending have never studied it in context, alone. Chances are even better that most never read it at home."
That is quit condescending. Is this appropriate for a Berean to behave? How does one who claims to search scripture daily learn to treat other Christians with such disdain?
"Homer, Vines, or anyone else that has ever stepped in the pulpit at FBC Jax - they have never taught that God views the sin of "not tithing" as a special sin, a national sin, that brings the judgment of God on a nation. That God views it worse than the sin of homosexuality - it is special according to Brunson, and God has already judged our nation because of NOT TITHING. "
Is preaching on the tithe as truth a sin? It is if it is heretical. It matters not what things could be said to happen if the tithe is not given but the foundation is... Is teaching the tithe is required biblical or heresy? I think you have made the case it is not biblical, therefore it is heresy.
If any of the previous pastors preached it as a truth,they were preaching heresy. MB simply adds his take on the current state we are in as a nation as a result from this. Wise? Nope. Wrong? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know what God has said to MB. I think I know what MB believes God has said to him.
But deflecting the subject to only the extra maybe stuff keeps you from addressing the tithe and the previous pastor's stand on it.
I'm a long time reader but rarely comment. But I have to wonder out loud.. [in print]..What has happened to our message of the Cross being God's judgment on sin and what we do with that message determines whether we will one day face His judgment?
Is not the answer of Jesus when asked about the fall of the tower that killed several and the popular thought was that their sin caused it to fall on them sufficient for us? He asked.."Were they greater sinners than others?" He went on to say all will face judgment unless all repent.
It seems to me our message is the judgment of the Cross and NOT trying to pinpoint events as God's judgment. Of course one would have to be satisfied with preaching the GOSPEL to be true to this.
I'm of the opinion when preachers attempt to define what is God's judgment, other than the work of the Cross, they are, in fact, fundamentally diminishing that Cross work.
.
As an agnostic, who used to be an Independent Fundamental Baptist, I see your problem being the Bible.
I'd say Brunson and many other preachers could make a very good case for their thinking re giving.
Others could back up the opposite side very well with th same Bible.
It's the same problem with even MAJOR doctrines-Calvinism vs. Arminianism, etc., etc. All these people coming to different answers reading the same book.
Yet not one ever dares to criticize the Bible and wonder why God made his holy word so very confusing.
So that's an opinion from a former insider who's now an outsider.
I think it's good this is all getting analysed. Is the problem preaching the tithe? Is it preaching the tithe in a certain style? Is it about adding to what the Bible says? Is it just one of many problems that this particular pastor exhibits? If so, is one of the problems in fact the true problem?
"What has happened to our message of the Cross being God's judgment on sin and what we do with that message determines whether we will one day face His judgment?"
I agree, yet I also believe your words can be applied to blogs which stand in judgment of others, like preachers, teachers, tithers...
"As an agnostic, who used to be an Independent Fundamental Baptist, I see your problem being the Bible. "
I have no problems with the bible but you interpretation of it in some areas.
"Yet not one ever dares to criticize the Bible and wonder why God made his holy word so very confusing."
If you need to criticize the bible, have at it. I don't need to. It is not confusing, but your interpretation is.
"I'd say Brunson and many other preachers could make a very good case for their thinking re giving.
Others could back up the opposite side very well with th same Bible."
Lynn, that is not correct. They can only make their case from the OT which is a theocracy and the tithe was actually a tax. They pick and choose what they want to highlight from the OT as law for today. How can that be relevant for the saved Gentiles? Paul said they did NOT have to become Jews first to be saved. Read Galatians.
But in the NC, the "laws" for today are quite clear and we have the added benefit of the Holy Spirit if we are truly saved. The "law" is to Love God and others. See 1 John
Mac cannot even make the case for a 10% tithe from the OT because it was never just 10%. That figure comes from history and the land rents of medieval Europe to the Catholic church.
The early church did NOT tithe. Some, like Barnabas, sold their estates and gave it all to be distributed to the needy who were coming into the Body. That is no 10% Some gave to be sent to the persecuted body in Jerusalam. Paul mentions this in quite a few places. NOWHERE is a percentage mentioned for believers in the NC. Not one place.
(Most, like Mac, go back to Melchelzidik and the 10% Abraham gave him. But the problem is, that was a ONE TIME event and the spoils of war!)
Mac cannot make his 10% tithing case in a serious debate about the truth of NC scrptures. That is why these guys don't allow public questioning.
So they and their followers resort to ad hominem attacks to those who try to get folks to actually study the Word in context of the Covenants. The attacks are all they know how to do. They claim we hate giving to others, etc. What they do not realize is that our giving has more kingdom impact because we know that we are to give cheerfully to those in need and do it anonymously in the Name of Jesus. We get no credit. Nor are we allowed to brag about it. And that is how it should be. See Matthew 6
I agree, yet I also believe your words can be applied to blogs which stand in judgment of others, like preachers, teachers, tithers...
October 16, 2010 10:55 AM
Wow, you must hate 1 Corin 14. Nevermind, I know you won't get it.
Anyway, I had to chuckle because, Ben, you are standing in judgement of those here who do not agree with Mac's tithing teaching! How ironic is that!
So, when we disagree it is "judgement". When you disagree with us, it is.........?
Duke
"Is not the answer of Jesus when asked about the fall of the tower that killed several and the popular thought was that their sin caused it to fall on them sufficient for us? He asked.."Were they greater sinners than others?" He went on to say all will face judgment unless all repent."
I mentioned Luke 13 early on. Please listen to Jesus' words rather than Mac's when it comes to 'judgement'. The 1st Century followers had the same questions and Jesus gave them the answer: Bad stuff happens in this fallen world...repent and be ready. (Think of being a Christian in Saudia Arabia!)
Why is Mac teaching a different concept of judgement than what Jesus Christ taught?
Please everyone reading! Study for yourselves and pray for truth to be illuminated from the indwelling Holy Spirit!
Stop buying into the works sanctification that Mac is preaching!
"I think you have made the case it is not biblical, therefore it is heresy. "
Ben, are you familiar with the true definition of "heresy"? It does not seem that you are.
Anon 11:09
I actually agree with you that the tithe is an O.T. thing and really not applicable today.
I think the N.T. talks about giving all you have, or giving cheerfully, etc.
And you mentioned a pet peeve of mine toward the church-questions are NOT welcome. That's why I'm glad we have the internet where we can all express our thoughts about stuff we feel strongly about-or just stuff we enjoy discussing.
(Most, like Mac, go back to Melchelzidik and the 10% Abraham gave him. But the problem is, that was a ONE TIME event and the spoils of war!)
Reckon where Abraham came up with 10%? Hmmmmmmm? Not the law! By the way, Jesus raising from the tomb was a one time event as well. I guess we should discout that, too.
Ben, simply put, I like you. Keep it up!
"Reckon where Abraham came up with 10%? Hmmmmmmm? Not the law! By the way, Jesus raising from the tomb was a one time event as well. I guess we should discout that, too. "
Huh?
Why is it that professing Christians cannot use one ounce of logic at all? Do they think that logic is a sin?
I'd like to repost this here since the thread in which it was mentioned has almost dropped off the front page.
You people think I lie, I'm telling you the Gods honest truth. Back about 20 years I confronted some people about it, and you wouldn't even believe what happened to me. trust me on this. Its been going on for years. Its all a whole lot worse than a lot of people have ANY idea. (you gonna print this watchdog?) lets see.....I promise you these techniques are far advanced to what they were 20 years ago. And the christian community is neck deep in it all.
Anon,
Could you please provide a link(s) to some resources on this subject? I can't find anything pertaining specifically to subliminal messages in Christian music or advertising. I'd really be interested in learning more about this subject. Frankly, I don't think having the word "sex" embedded in print advertising is going to be a selling point for me. Just sayin'.
Maybe Mac and Steve are embedding subliminal messages in their print, music, and video media. "Give... give... tithe... give more."
New BBC Open Forum said...
Seriously, who would knowingly keep driving 100 miles in the wrong direction before turning around? I understand the point, and I suppose it's a good one, although a better lesson would be when you make a mistake to immediately own it and correct it instead of delaying the inevitable. I just can't imagine anyone actually doing that. And then admitting it publicly? Awk... ward!
I've never heard Dr. Allison tell that story, but, knowing him, it sounds believable, and he isn't one to tell "preacher stories." (It would likely have been quite some time ago, when he was younger and more prone to letting pride drive his decisions, as is all too common in "preacher boys.")
Yeah, it was a really dumb move, and apparently, from the point he was making, he would agree with that. But admitting it publicly and drawing an object lesson on what not to do is the sort of transparency I would like to see more of from preachers.
I haven't got time for that kind of carp, it's insulting to our intelligence.
"Carp" it is. Whether it was intentional or not, thanks for the chuckle!
At least the former fundy's appreciate the watchdog
http://formerfundy.blogspot.com/
At least the former fundy's appreciate the watchdog
http://formerfundy.blogspot.com/
October 16, 2010 3:10 PM
It is hard for you to see that guys like Mac can produce "two fold sons of hell" just as the Pharisees did. And Jesus warned about.
Teaching "law" does not work and only makes false converts. When will you guys get it?
This is exactly why I am not a christian. If your god really existed "in" the hearts of believers, as you profess, why do you always fight. Why would I want what you have when what you have is so disgusting to you? God obviously is not real to any of you. If god is in all of you, I don't want him in me! As Lennon said, "just imagine."
Craig - at least I let you post here and have your say. You have attacked James White on your blog and you don't allow any dissenting views on your blog. You're welcome to post here. Christians overwhelmingly view Caner as an unrepentant liar, and they don't take kindly to people like yourself defending him by attacking the men and women who call for Caner to publicly apologize.
Anon Oct 16 6:18 PM. This is called America and what we enjoy being free. Freedom of expression, sort of what you just expressed. None of us are the same. Thank God He made us that way. Can you imagine if we were all the same how boring life would be.
Why would I want what you have when what you have is so disgusting to you? God obviously is not real to any of you. If god is in all of you, I don't want him in me! As Lennon said, "just imagine."
October 16, 2010 6:18 PM
So you think that we should just keep our mouths shut when someone who is a paid to be Christian lies and misrepresents what a Christian is?
No where in Mac's sermon does he say he and his staff are willing to take a pay cut in their paychecks. What an encouragement it would be.
People by the thousands are taking pay cut's, being laid off, no raises for Social Security seniors for 2nd year. He preaches on financial fear - he knows nothing about leaning on God for meeting his financial needs. This man does not live in the real world, he lives in the millionaire row so he does not have to live in financial fear. Listen to how he brags about his "high maintenance" wife. As he says, makes no sense.
Before they are willing to take a pay cut they will cut the low level staff. As long as the needs of the Senior administrator's have the cream of the crop money to support them, FBC has no financial problems - they are just begging for it to keep coming.
To you who want no part of being a Christian. You are comparing a perfect, sinless Son of God to man's standard. God is the Creator!!! Man is at his best "filthy rags". Jesus went to the Cross and shed his perfect blood for us. Nothing man can do will be able to match this. You cannot put God on man's level. And the only requirement of this Sacrifice on the Cross is to accept His Sacrifice for us and BELIEVE that He is who He is. Even so come quickly Lord Jesus.
. He preaches on financial fear - he knows nothing about leaning on God for meeting his financial needs. This man does not live in the real world, he lives in the millionaire row so he does not have to live in financial fear. Listen to how he brags about his "high maintenance" wife. As he says, makes no sense.
Before they are willing to take a pay cut they will cut the low level staff. As long as the needs of the Senior administrator's have the cream of the crop money to support them, FBC has no financial problems - they are just begging for it to keep coming.
October 17, 2010 11:06 AM
Watch close. Our seminary's do the same exact thing. Even though many of the high level folks make a nice income stream OUTSIDE the seminary, too, they rarely take serious pay cuts. But they wil lay off others in a heartbeat.
A few years back, SBTS laid off 35 people. I knew one guy. He had a wife and 3 kids. Of course, the wife did not work outside the home as a good little SBTS wife. She also homeschooled as a good little SBTS wife. Just like Mary Mohler.
So, they are left with no income, no health insurance, etc. Did Mohler take a pay cut? No. But they spent millions to beautify the campus at the same time as the layoffs.
They claim different budgets and the money was already earmarked. As if this means anything in the spiritual sense. They are SOOOOOO Worldly! But most cannot see it and just follow along with what is total corruption in thinking. There is nothing spiritual about it. One does not bring harm and ruin to brothers and sisters in Christ. After all, Patterson claims the seminary is a "church".
Mac is doing what has been the norm in SBC circles for the last 30 years. He is simply one of them.
I've been a member of First Baptist for 16 years now and this is the first time to my knowlege that the church has started a project without having the money first to see the project through without having to get up before the congregation and begging for people to give to the building project or otherwise the project will have to come to a stop. I remember under Dr. Vines we had to put off the Senior citizens building because we didn't raise enough money to finish the building. Boy has First Baptist come a long way since then that we would allow a preacher to put us in this position of not being able to finish a project because we don't have the money to finish it. I sure miss the days when the Pastor would bring the need before the church, ask us to pray about giving to the project, waiting for the money to come in(all the money) and then starting the building project. These are sad times we live in now!!
Many of you know my husband and I left the SBC a few months ago. For us personally, we felt like the longer we participated, the more we were part of the problem. However we recognize that many of our brothers and sisters in the SBC view this differently. We are not critical of the brethren in the pews. But we are quite appalled by the leadership of many (not all)of these people. I think we all know the names of those people.
It took some time to find a church that was Biblically grounded, wholeheartedly worshipping, and comfortable. We asked for membership and took the obligatory classes. We ASKED to see the financial records of the church, as transparency of the use of other people's money seems to be a problem everywhere. We were not only allowed to see the Pastor's salary, but every single line item of expenditures. We found that the land the church campus is on, was given to the church. We were not given the name of the donor as they specifically asked for anonymity. To our surprise (and delight), we found that a building fund was established after having been voted on by the entire membership. An even bigger surprise was that it took them 5 years to get the money needed to build. The Pastor said that as long as he was there, the church would not take on any project that required the church to become indebted to anyone. It really was an eye-opener! Anyone know what choir robes cost? Our choir has more than 130 people in it. The robes the church purchased were well over $150.00 each!
Ministry can be expensive, but when Biblical truths are not only taught, but lived, God is faithful.
I would not be so sure there is not enough money to finish the project. Are you saying there is not the money anywhere in the entire church budget?
Many times these "visuals" are used to increase giving. No one wants to embarassment to the church that we could not pay contractors or to look at an unfinished project every week.
Beware. It could be a ruse. If it is that important, then Mac and others can take a hit for a while to pay it off....eventually. Let us see what HIS committment is to the church. :o)
There is nothing wrong with Brunson;s comment. I suspect the people that don't like it are the people that don't like to give. Scratch that. I know it.
C.T.
October 15, 2010 4:22 PM
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C.T. - I like your logic. So the only people that don't like people accusing FBC Jax members of being kool-aid drinking followers of men and not God are the ones that are drinking the kool-aid and following mac!
But deflecting the subject to only the extra maybe stuff keeps you from addressing the tithe and the previous pastor's stand on it.
October 16, 2010 10:27 AM
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If the previous pastors knew that the tithe was not a "mandate" and taught that it was in order to acheive the greater end of funding the work of the Lord in Jacksonville....then they were liars and hypocrites and frauds and only a few thousand people were saved in a city of millions over 60+ years, instead of hundreds of thousands. They did not trust God and they build a nice little empire of 5000 - 6000 regulars and after 60+ years downtown and hundreds of millions of sacrificial dollars later, guess what...still a small congregation of 5000 to 6000 people in hundreds of millions of dollars worth of property and buildings doing NOTHING but entertaining themselves.
Did Homer always have to be rigth? Was he right to build that lighthouse on the edge of a parking garage? Sheesh!
Are you that twisted to think that Homer and Vines could have been right on the most important things...dedicating their lives to preaching the Bible, but somehow they couldn't be wrong, or corrupted, when it came to finances?
By your logic there is no way, absolutely no way, that a "great man" like Bob Gray (Homer's roommate at seminary) could have been wrong when he molested children. I mean just look at the church, high school and bible college he built. Do you really think Bob Gray was wrong?
You are scary.
Ben - when will you be starting your blog. I am looking forward to reading your views and engaging you there. :)
Reckon where Abraham came up with 10%? Hmmmmmmm? Not the law! By the way, Jesus raising from the tomb was a one time event as well. I guess we should discout that, too.
Ben, simply put, I like you. Keep it up!
October 16, 2010 12:49 PM
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Then I bet you'll like this passage too: Jesus, remember him, when asked "what must I do to be saved?" Told the man "sell all you own, give it to the poor, then come follow me."
Can't wait for you and Ben to do that. Oh wait, that was a one time thing, Jesus was just talking to Nicodemus, that doesn't apply to you or me. :) I guess the only people that discount that passage are the ones that don't want to sell everything and give it to the poor. They would rather give just 10% and call it a day. Or maybe 11% like Mac. Or maybe they would rather give expensive gifts to the rich pastor. I am sure Jesus would have loved that. But no, you boys pat each other on the back because someone gave some guy named Melchizadek 10% of the spoils of war back in the OT. (smile)
This is exactly why I am not a christian. If your god really existed "in" the hearts of believers, as you profess, why do you always fight. Why would I want what you have when what you have is so disgusting to you? God obviously is not real to any of you. If god is in all of you, I don't want him in me! As Lennon said, "just imagine."
October 16, 2010 6:18 PM
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Really? The preacher demanding 10% or God "will get it" doesn't bother you, but people disagreeing with that does? You sound like someone who follows men and gets upset when others challenge the man you would want to follow. If that is your mindset, then it is good you are not following a man and thinking you are a Christian. Or maybe you are a Christian and are reading this blog and trying to make people think some lost person would actually come here and blame his lostness on our discussions. chuckle
So many great sites out there if you are interested in learning about God and Christians. Try John McArthur for starters. Or Adrian Rogers' Love Worth Finding. Good luck.
And if you do find Christ, please don't let some clown in the pulpit abuse you sexually or get a large chunk of your assets to satisy their own insatiable appetites. ;)
Ben - are you saying all the Popes were wrong? Are you saying Spurgeon was wrong on pre-destination. Was Martin Luther preaching heresy when he stayed in the Catholic church? Is Benny Hinn preaching heresay? Joel Osteen? Could it be? Jerry Vines? Still taking money from the church budget? Gasp! Say it aint' so. These are celebrities that are worshipped. How could they be wrong.
egads.
Or maybe you are a Christian and are reading this blog and trying to make people think some lost person would actually come here and blame his lostness on our discussions. chuckle
Exactly my thought when I read that. If the writer had said, "If god (sic) is in ________, I don't want him in me," I might have bought it, but when someone paints everyone else with the same broad brush... nope... not buyin' it.
Then I bet you'll like this passage too: Jesus, remember him, when asked "what must I do to be saved?" Told the man "sell all you own, give it to the poor, then come follow me."
Easy. Every Bible student knows that this was a test for Nicodemus to determine the status of his heart. We all, like Nicodemus, must be willing to sell all and follow Christ. The lesson for Nicodemus and for all who read is that if anything stands in the way of us following Christ, then that becomes our God.
Come on. You can do better than that. While you are tearing out the pages in Genesis where Abraham gave 10% before the law, search a little deeper for a better example. Weak! :)
Ben - are you saying all the Popes were wrong? Are you saying Spurgeon was wrong on pre-destination. Was Martin Luther preaching heresy when he stayed in the Catholic church? Is Benny Hinn preaching heresay? Joel Osteen? Could it be? Jerry Vines? Still taking money from the church budget? Gasp! Say it aint' so. These are celebrities that are worshipped. How could they be wrong.
egads.
This comment is absolutely void of any intellect!
"To you who want no part of being a Christian. You are comparing a perfect, sinless Son of God to man's standard. God is the Creator!!! Man is at his best "filthy rags". Jesus went to the Cross and shed his perfect blood for us. Nothing man can do will be able to match this. You cannot put God on man's level. And the only requirement of this Sacrifice on the Cross is to accept His Sacrifice for us and BELIEVE that He is who He is. Even so come quickly Lord Jesus."
If any of that is true, then why is there a blog dedicated to the fallacy of man? If man is inherently a sinner, why devote so much time discussing him? Why are you not discussing your god?
I'm an FBC Jax member and I will not defend his comments. I do not agree with them either. Watchdog, I agree with you on most all of your posts. Oh that eyes would be opened!
"I'm an FBC Jax member and I will not defend his comments. I do not agree with them either. Watchdog, I agree with you on most all of your posts. Oh that eyes would be opened!"
QUESTION: What would happen if eyes were open? What should folks do that have their eyes opened?
"QUESTION: What would happen if eyes were open? What should folks do that have their eyes opened?"
They'd get out of these temples of materialism ASAP.
Anon 6:55...Spread the word. Nothing like truth to be dispersed.
Exactly my thought when I read that. If the writer had said, "If god (sic) is in ________, I don't want him in me," I might have bought it, but when someone paints everyone else with the same broad brush... nope... not buyin' it.
Ain't nuttin for sale. Comical that you want me to be a christian to justify what you do. Whatever? Keep fighting. Keep proving my point. I went to church when I was younger. All they did then is fight, and I see nothing has changed. What I find most interesting is that, instead of trying to make me a christian, you choose to start bashing on me. Yeah, I want what you have. chuckle
They would turn to God outside of convent christianity such as when most people could ont read. There, the gospel was forced on they in the way of the preacher. Times have changed. Instutions are not really a must to hear the word of god. The queston remains what is the role of instutuions church. is it a government force? is it a club? the question is what is it and shoule they be recieving tax benifits.
I have no power to "try to make you a Christian" nor am I in any way "bashing on" you.
You who went to church when you were young. Don't let another sinner stand in your way in accepting Jesus as your Savior. When you get much older you will realize that the only friend you have that will stand with you through thick and thin is Jesus. Keep your chin up.
Readers - sorry, I prematurely posted the next post on tithing...it is scheduled to post Monday morning around noon.
Darn, I was just about to post a comment on it.
Abraham actually gave away 100%. Read the entire passage!
Anon said, “This is exactly why I am not a christian. If your god really existed "in" the hearts of believers, as you profess, why do you always fight. Why would I want what you have when what you have is so disgusting to you? God obviously is not real to any of you. If god is in all of you, I don't want him in me! As Lennon said, "just imagine."”
So let me ask you this, are you married? Do you have earthly brothers and sisters? Are all of these relationships always love and roses? Do you have disagreements? Does the fact that the majority of marriages end in divorce keep you from getting married?
If there is disharmony in even the closest of our worldly relationships why would you expect total strangers to get along in perfect agreement?
I don't know how often others go back and check the comments on older posts, but there have been some interesting ones at the ends of some of the older threads in the past couple of weeks.
Direct links (I'm lazy tonight):
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Having sat under Brunson in Dallas, the dejavu watching the videos here is freaky. I played the video for my wife. She immediately recoiled and ran from the room pleading me to turn it off - after about 12 seconds. Mac has a down-home personable side that we liked, but the anger and brow beating grew worse by the week. Eventually drove him away.
Folks, let me tell you something, I fear it will only get worse for you. Historically Mac has stayed at a church for 6-7 years before jumping to something else. You may have to ride it out. From this point the convention will need to carve out an executive position or something for him. That could be your only glimmer of hope.
All that said, I am growing more and more cynical about all large churches. The people seem to be catching on and the marketing seems to be growing more and more desperate. It works on the clueless sheep who are joiners, but anyone with an ounce of discernment can't stay. And don't even think about questioning the strategies. The amish are rank amateurs in shunning compared to today's mega church staffs.
Once solid "buys", the mega churches may very well be in solid "sell" modes these days.
"From this point the convention will need to carve out an executive position or something for him. That could be your only glimmer of hope."
That is exactly what will happen. But they are going to have to find 2 exec positions. Another for Gaines.
But now that more state money will go to the SBC bureaucrats, it should not be a problem. People are already being laid off or offered early retirement in our state association.
"the question is what is it and shoule they be recieving tax benifits."
The government does not want to collect taxes from churches, even though it could raise much revenue. The reason is that churches will then have the freedom to be as political as they want.
The reason is that churches will then have the freedom to be as political as they want.
October 18, 2010 9:20 AM
You might want to check the legal structure code before you make that declaration.
The fact is that the rules have been ignored when it comes to black churches for decades. But the rules are in place that churches can lose their legal charter if viewed as a sort of campaign headquarters.
Is there any way to get this "executive position" carved out on the fast track, post-haste?
"From this point the convention will need to carve out an executive position or something for him. That could be your only glimmer of hope."
“That is exactly what will happen. But they are going to have to find 2 exec positions. Another for Gaines.”
Nah, Gaines is safe and my guess is so is Brunson. Gaines has purged the membership of his non supporter and my guess is so has Brunson. It’s all about the preacher after all and they’re just taking out the trash. In time and with his penchant for drama, Gaines will leave as the martyr.
Don’t know about Mac.
There more truth to this statement than most prople know:
"The amish are rank amateurs in shunning compared to today's mega church staffs." and members I might add.
"Folks, let me tell you something, I fear it will only get worse for you. Historically Mac has stayed at a church for 6-7 years before jumping to something else. You may have to ride it out."
I fear Mac ain't going to jump to go somewhere else. Gated millionaire home, country club status with his cronie friends, ocean surroundings, wife, son & friends who are safely employed and drawing salary - I'd say he feels he's found his treasure at the end of the rainbow here in Jacksonville, FL. I hope I'm wrong. Would love for the end of the story to be that he rides out in sunset! He's got a good thing going, in his mind, there is no reason to leave. With love! :>)
"I fear Mac ain't going to jump to go somewhere else. Gated millionaire home, country club status with his cronie friends, ocean surroundings, wife, son & friends who are safely employed and drawing salary - I'd say he feels he's found his treasure at the end of the rainbow here in Jacksonville, FL. I hope I'm wrong. Would love for the end of the story to be that he rides out in sunset! He's got a good thing going, in his mind, there is no reason to leave. With love! :>)"
God is good! Amen!
I see that all of the NT tithe advocates are ignoring the question again?
Here it is - surely one of you Bible scholars can give us a reason:
Why were the OT Israelites required to give 23% and in the NT we are only required to give 10%?
I've heard it said that anything that was required under law - more is required under grace. So, why are we giving less than 1/2 of what they gave in the OT?
Ben?
I have not read all 150 comments to someone might of expressed this before me.
If it is truly about being faithful about the tithe then why don't they focus on the complete spiritual health and take confidence that when I create a healthy mature Christian then he or she will do what glorifies God. They also will take care of the local body for God's Glory. You do not make a tree produce fruit by telling it should. You tend to it and give it the things it needs to be healthy and sometimes you have do some pruning. Create an evironment to make mature Christians then you will have a healthy church.
I'd say people pick and choose what they want to follow in the O.T. or the N.T.
Plus people might not like the approach of the pastor, or they don't like how the money's spent, or they don't approve of the pastor's lifestyle.
Plus as far as giving, people use their common sense.
Plus aren't Christians supposed to be living having everything in common? More like communism instead of capitalism? Doesn't it say that's how they lived in the N.T.?
Anon 11:15
Here it is - surely one of you Bible scholars can give us a reason:
Why were the OT Israelites required to give 23% and in the NT we are only required to give 10%?
********
First of all, the OT tithe was not really a tithe, it was a TAX. The people lived in a theocracy. Certain occupations didn't even pay that. Jesus was a carpenter, so he would have not have been obligated to pay it. We don't know whether He did. It would be speculation on my part to even hazard a guess.
The NT does NOT require anyone to give a tithe and I defy you to show me any verse in the New Testament that says otherwise. We are to support the work of the Lord, but it is sacrificial, cheerful giving, not a requirement of the OT law defining any numerical amount to be be given. Ever read about the widow's mite?
Yes, preachers have been hammering on Malachi for I don't even know how long. I always find it interesting that they'll swear that the OT verse in Malachi commands us to give a tithe, but they won't ask you to stone your children to death if they are disobedient, or not eat certain things, or forbid wearing mixed fabrics, or to keep the Sabbath. Do you really think they can pull this one part of the Bible out of the OT law and say we must keep this command, but not the others? That's not what Paul said either. He said to those Christians who felt that they still had to follow the law, to go right ahead, but to remember, they had to keep the WHOLE law PERFECTLY. Of course if any of us could do that, we'd not have needed the GRACE extended to us.
In our country not only do most of work 6+ months to pay the federal income tax, state tax, excise tax, gift tax, death tax, sales tax, property tax, most of us still give to the Lord's work. The OT Jews didn't not have to do this. So in the final analysis, we are in much worse shape financially than they were.
This is common sense, and you don't need a degree in theology to see it.
Katie,
You go, girl!
It never fails to amaze me that no matter how clearly you present an idea that people not only misinterpret what you said, but they end up attributing to you the exact opposite sentiment than what you intended.
Katie - the reason I ask the question is because there is no valid answer.
Thus proving that the NT tithe advocates don't have scriptural support for their position.
I have asked the question (on this blog) dozens of times.
So far the one person that responded (a Baptist pastor)said he needed more time to do some research and write a paper on it.
This was several months ago.
We'll keep waiting Les.
Any other takers?
Lydia,
Trust me. I am not a Bible scholar and there was a time when I just went along with my Pastor. As I got older and a bit more discerning, it occurred to me that so many Christians were squabbling over so many inconsequential things, that I was being tossed at every turn. So I literally decided that to be a Berean is the only way to get to the truth. It's been a long process and the stuff I still don't know could fill volumes. But I can tell you this, no Pastor will ever again accuse me of 'robbing God', especially when they are purposely misrepresenting what scripture actually says.
We are the sheep to THE SHEPHERD, not the sheep to slaughter to enrich other people.
We do need to be responsible for our money, but people actually don't pay their rent because some charlatan told them God would reward them 10 times over. My response to that is a common phrase: Don't ask God to bless your mess! LOL.
Katie,
You are preaching to the choir.
That question was directed toward NT tithing advocates.
Anonymous 4:49,
I think our posts crossed. I reread the post where you asked the question to NT tithers. I admit the question put me off a bit because I didn't read carefully the way you had phrased it. Mea Culpa. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I don't mind admitting it.
I belong to another large forum and they are having this same conversation. Lot's of folks are asking the question you did?
I won't name the SBC Pastor I sat under, but he preached the whole month of January, year after year on the tithe. Throughout the year, we got the sob story letters in the mail about how the church was going to have to let some staff go. Now he wasn't vicious like Mac seems to be... but the guilt trip was always there... just under the surface.
My first glimpse that what I had believed, because my Pastor told me so (he is supposed to be seminary trained) started to fade when I came upon a John MacArthur video (it might have been audio, it was some time ago). I searched my Bible for the word tithe. I did find it twice in NT when Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees about being legalistic. Now Jesus wasn't telling us not to give, but that the motive should be different. Jesus never said we were to pay a tithe. It ain't there.
Then a few years ago, a church that is near my home was actually featured in the newspaper saying how Jesus was rich and he wanted us all to be rich.
As you can see, the Holy Spirit starts tapping some folks on the shoulder and saying, search Me for the truth.
It's hard to face the fact that someone you trusted to tell you truth about scripture hadn't been truthful. I don't expect perfection in my Pastor, but I do expect proper exegesis of scripture.
It was a good lesson and I needed to learn it.
I do think I will get the book that WD posted about today.
Again, please accept my apology. :)
"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he gthat hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one". Luke 22:36. I have never heard a pastor preach on this scripture and most members have a purse and carry money. Anyone know why? Just thinking.
Annon at 7:08 asked (me- Annon) what would happen if eyes were opened and what to do if eyes are opened? First, I sometimes get frustrated that others can't see it. But I believe that the Holy Spirit must open the eyes of understanding. I grew up hearing exactly what Mac preaches and only God could make me receptive to the errors. What to do? I am praying that the Lord will deliver me and my family from the corporate, institutional church. It is an unholy alliance with the State and is not godly. I have read Pagan Christianity and it helped me understand why I was uncomfortable with certain traditions and teachings. Christ didn't call us to any of what we see at FBC or any SBC church. I rely on my KJV Bible and try to keep everything in context. I'm very tired of the Biblical gymnastics! And, yes, I do try to disperse the information. Many don't want to hear it while others are starting to wake up. For WD, I recently talked with someone in the financial area of FBC and asked why the building projects were done without having the money first. I was told that we actually did have the money but it would have to come out of the general operating fund and that wasn't a good idea. I told him that Mac told us that we didn't have the money and work would stop mid project if the money did not come in. He told me that Mac had "CEO disease" and didn't always stick to the facts as he is given them. I questioned why he lied and was told it wasn't a lie because it was true to him. Needless to say, this hasn't gone over well with me at all.
You must under stand that the SBC is on the road to fascict ideology. The sad thing is that they are soo programed they do not even know that. those who are programmed are not in plane sight. The result will be on day the entire church such as FBC Jax will be filled with people such as those like masons. But it will be a secret.
"Again, please accept my apology. :)"
No need to apologize. Just a simple misunderstanding. It happens all the time in written communication.
My situation is very similar to yours. My eyes were first opened by this blog and MacArthur's tape.
"I don't expect perfection in my Pastor, but I do expect proper exegesis of scripture."
Exactly, Katie. Even when there are very hard passages concerning tertiary issues that many scholars have had trouble interpreting, the pastor should say so and give the different views.
However, tithing is pretty obvious. Some of it might be that they are dispensationalists. But I have seen Old Covenant preachers, preach the tithe like Sproul (BTW: His financial shenanigans at Ligoneir a few years back ought to give anyone pause who is a donor. They got caught in lies, too, and lots of high life living.)
But seriously, what are preachers paid for if they cannot properly exegete scripture? It is like someone said...let's start at the seminary level. Most of them never study past what they where taught in seminary. And that is a problem.
Another dangerous reason to follow a pastor: You might never grow spiritually past where he is. And as we are seeing, that is a huge problem!
And when you do grow spiritually past your pastor, it is almost impossible to sit and listen to the pablum week after week.
I questioned why he lied and was told it wasn't a lie because it was true to him. Needless to say, this hasn't gone over well with me at all.
October 19, 2010 12:49 AM
That is SICKO! It means truth is relative depending on what WE thinki is truth.
Has everyone noticed how prevalent this thinking has become IN THE EVANGELICAL CIRCLES? Those who claimed they were NOT post modern?
Just like Craig tried on us...if he did not think Caner was wrong then we are wrong to tell Craig he is wrong! To tell Craig he is wrong was called "ungodly" by Craig!
Sooooo, according to these guys:
The "truth" does not stand alone and it is relative.
Amazing! It is everywhere.
Pro-Tithers are suckers. The truth is so clear. Only crops and animals were tithed on in the Old Testament, so carpenters, lawyers, bankers, blacksmiths, did not tithe on their occupational income.
I remember back in 2000 a couple of megas saying that 9-11 was God's judgement on America. God's judgement is very hard to identify since it rains on the just as well as the unjust. I personally do not believe God has an angel checking tithing records down here. God is more concerned with the abominations that have taken over America not tithing. If that was true how come the megas are millionaires and the lower income people that do tithe are still here suffering in a depression. Thats not fair. Congress is trying to correct this currently with redistribution. The whole system appears to be confusing and hard to explain by Christian leaders or those in the media. But, we are in the end times and like someone said, it will get worse before it gets any better for us all.
This is much like the reasoning behind the counsel of Job's friends?
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