Below is a hyperlink to an interesting article by David Rogers, son of the late Dr. Adrian Rogers, regarding the rising trend in the SBC of what David calls "semi-infant" baptisms - baptisms of young children and even toddlers.David is a proponent of postponing young people's baptism until after they reach the age of 12. This article is particularly timely given that this week is "Vacation Bible School" and there will be plenty of parents considering whether to allow their children who make professions of faith to be baptised.
Perhaps this article might be helpful to a parent during this week of Vacation Bible School.
David Rogers article on Semi-Infant Baptism
20 comments:
Does Romans 3:23 apply to people only after a certain age?
Eph 4:l4: "That henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to DECEIVE."
Why does no one get it!!! Do you not see what's happening? You cannot continue to ignore the coming and present apostacy. You have it in the Word, do you read it? Do you ask for the wisdom to understand it. DO YOU CARE?
2Tim:4:3-4 " For the Time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"
vs.4: " And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
When do you hear doctrine preached? Do you wonder when you hear "strange" things said, that you know in your heart are wrong? Can you continue to listen to it and have peace in your soul?
There is a cancer growing on churches today? Apostacy!!! The anything goes, as long as it's called "church" attitude. As long as I am happy, as long as I "go to church", as long as my friends are there. People wake up. GOD IS NOT MOCKED.
2Tim:4: 2 "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE."
Being told to conform to someone's idea of how they want the church to be contrary to what you KNOW and have been taught is not preaching the word.
You are being taken into Purpose Driven Ecumenicalism!!!!! The PD movement is full of Catholic Doctrine. If your preacher says he is not going purpose driven, but moves you ever closer to it. The things he does is straight out of the PD handbook, what do you think? You cannot ignore the cow in the road, it's there!!!
The church is sick today. It is falling away. You will not heed the warnings. You want to complain about the symptoms. Complain about the latest affront. But you don't want to hear the reasons for the problems. You let one thing get by, then another, then another and now you are losing your church to apostacy. You say,"well, what can I do, I go to church, I tithe my money". How nice. All you are doing is supporting a dying church with money and attendance. YOU can DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY. You can stop allowing false doctrine in your church. Speak up!! The old testament saints were not cowards.
You've compromised at every turn. The preachers have left their first love and you have gone with them. Look at the churches in England that once were full when Spurgeon preached. Many times there were overflow crowds into the street. Now the churches are for tourist and sightseeing because they are just beautiful buildings, but empty of believers GOD loses patience with man. He can remove His candlestick. Rev. 2: vs. 5: "Remember therefore
from whence thou art fallen,and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto the quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." (Jesus speaking)
You can continue in works. You can continue defending "your church". And you can continue ignoring the problems. But you cannot ignore the consequences. Being busy with "programs", gimmicks, school, cells, satellite churches, while you let your own church die is not what churches were founded on. 2Tim.3: 5: "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof; from such turn away".
So continue to ignore the cancer, just deal with symptoms. Complain here and there. Sell and "promote" your brand, however your marketing group leads you. Wow that's spiritual isn't it.Stay busy with works, get mad at those that interrupt the nice and friendly "get togethers". Don't worry about lost people, true bible doctrine, and the coming tidal wave of apostacy. But for goodness sake stay happy. Original question: DO YOU CARE?
Relative to what age an individual should be baptised: Dr Lindsay and his dad before him sat down and discussed with the children (at least 9 years old) what being saved meant and determined if they really were converted. Conversion first before baptism. Some of these children may be pressured by their parents or their classmates. That can be easily identified and dealt with. One thing is sure: if they have sufficient knowledge of what salvation is that Jesus died for their sins, was buried, and rose again...then they should be baptised..better young when their hearts are tender than never again after they are told they are not ready. They are being taught about
other lifestyles now in the public schools in the elementary grades. What is there to offset the wiles of satan? I say save them now or lose them later. When they leave the church lost at 18 years of age and go to college or work their chance of getting saved is drastically reduced.
And you wonder how false doctrines like this get started? Well, one way is false bible translations. But we can't talk about that because no one is interested. No one cares about that. That's the main problem but no one cares!! Let's not make anyone mad or uncomfortable.
Anon 10:10: Let's DO talk about that. What makes a Bible translation a false one?
And a question for Anon 10:04: Are the things you're upset about in many churches today based on violations of scripture or violations of your own personal preferences?
I'm not mad at anybody. Just wondering. :)
ll:02: Study it for yourself, my comment wouldn't satisfy you. I studied it for myself and found the answers. Most people won't believe anything they are told anyway. They just want to waste time arguing, trying to get one up on somebody else. The subject is serious and takes serious study.
If you are "really" interested.
2 Tim:2:15: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
ll:02: Study it for yourself, my comment wouldn't satisfy you. I studied it for myself and found the answers. Most people won't believe anything they are told anyway. They just want to waste time arguing, trying to get one up on somebody else. The subject is serious and takes serious study.
If you are "really" interested.
2 Tim:2:15: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
The way to start your own study: Check out where the text comes from. See which text changes doctrines, leaves out or changes Gods word. Relating to the Blood, and the Cross, whole parts concerning the ascension. Which ones dilute the Diety of Christ. That should get you started. Then start comparing these with the KJV. I won't comment further as it will be useless.
11:02 here,
I have "studied it" as you suggest. And I don't deny that there are messed up versions of the Bible (New World Translation comes to mind, although it's not the only one), but I don't summarily condemn ALL modern translations as being "false" or assume that they have no value.
And I'm not saying that you do, either. But your not wanting to answer my question still makes me curious as to what you consider a false translation.
I'm not interested in getting in a debate about this, as I am quite comfortable with the Bible translations I choose to use and I'm sure you are with yours, as well. Just being nosy. :)
11:02 here again,
I know that this topic has been debated to death in many other places, so I too am not going to keep commenting on this. However, I must say that comparing a translation with a translation (KJV) is ineffectual and a failure to rightly divide the word of truth.
Not that the KJV is not a good translation, but it is still just that: a translation.
KJV only advocates are intellectual obscurantists who have no clue as to what they are blogging about. The main purpose in our lives should be to get all people everywhere to speak 17th century English. The Bibles they now have in their own languages are useless.
Most of you people need to be more precise in your definitions of PD. If someone were to suggest that he wanted to do away with the altar call for example you would immediately say that that was PD; but the altar call was not even invented until about 120-130 years ago by a man who was PD before PD ever came into vogue--the Pelagian heretic Charles G. Finney. Evangelicals have been marching to Finney's tune about a multitude of things ever since including such things as entertaining music to get the crowd stirred up.
It is interesting to note that the great Charles Spurgeon rejected altar calls (you can't say Spurgeon was not interested in winning souls to Christ;he was also a 5 point Calvinist) as well as entertaining music. He would not even allow an organ into the Metropolitan Tabernacle because he was afraid people would associate it with amusements.
To learn more about PD before Rick Warren and Bill Hybels became household names read Macarthur's book "Ashamed of the Gospel".
For the record, the Lindsay's met with the parent(s) and children ages 9 years and younger. Once he spoke with the child they would then determine how much the child comprehended about the decision they were making. Then they would recommend whether or not the child should wait to complete his public decision with baptism and or how long they might need to wait. Our Pastoral staff still does this today. Of my four children, all met with Dr. Lindsay, each between the ages of 7 and 9, each Baptized within the same year of their decision. Having myself worked with elementary children, most between the ages of 7 and 9 for more than 10 years, I think most at this age completely understand their decision. I agree that many people, children and adults are pressured by family and peers to make a decision that they truly don’t understand. Either way, I personally think it has to be a "case by case" individual issue and I certainly believe that very young and or immature children need additional counseling. But there can not be some type of governing body that says any certain age can or cannot be Baptized. We have definitely seen a trend in churches who for the last five to ten years have Baptize some seemingly young children, possibly in order to keep the "numbers up" - in those cases, that is a shame. But who of us should Judge. My final thought would be, volunteer, come work with these children be a part of what is right instead of questioning what might be wrong.
Attn: 2:00 P.M.: I am really glad YOU are NOT my AUTHORITY. I find we agree on nothing!!!!
Also, for years our church has also had a new member’s class for children that have made a public decision for Christ. This class of minimum four weeks available up to 8 weeks is meant and designed to reaffirm that Childs decision. Make sure they understand the basics of salvation and other basic general Bible principles. It is a great follow up tool so that these children are just simply "tossed" out there after such a huge and mature event in their young lives.
Anon 2:32 - I'm not actually questioning anything. I myself agree with the other Anon that its a case by case basis, but David Rogers does make some good points and the discussion between the bloggers I think is a very good one worth reading. I know that the one positive statistic that our pastor points to is how our baptisms are up, and I hope that our church is still doing what it has always done, requiring children to be counseled by a minister prior to them being baptized. I hope in our quest for big baptism numbers that we don't baptize little ones before they are counseled and the parent and a minister are sure they are ready.
WD. FBC does still have a Pastor counsel each child and the childrens new member class is still available to each child. A couple of years ago, I personally thought that some children were being Baptized at younger ages than "normal" but the last couple of years that trend doesnt seem as noticable.
Thanks for the clarification WD on your feelings regarding this issue. Due to the normal church-bashing the topics on this blog contains. Readers may have been looking for another fight-- something else to blame on our pastor and to try harm his integrity. If there are further questions we do have a baptismal counseling team that meets with candidates every time there is a baptism as well as the advisement that occurs when someone walks an aisle. I am sure since our staff performs baptisms they too could enlighten anyone who has questions about who can be baptized....An age of understandin is important and I too believe it is case by case....as well if a child is involved it is vital that the parent continue to speak to the child about their salvation experience because as you mature in age you begin to understand better the act of Christ on our behalf. Parents are charged to talk about what has been done for us with their children when they rise up, lie down, in the house, out of the house....(Deut. 6)We are to teach them to be Christlike and behave in a Christlike manner in all areas of their life by demonstrating it. Teach them that in whatever they do do it to bring glory to God...after all bringing glory to Him is what it's all about.
Did you know that 10 children came to know our Christ in a personal way at VBS yesterday? Praise God.
On the subject of the blog entry.
I have always understood that if ones name is not written in the book of life then they will not be admitted into the glory of heaven. If this is true then are all children who die before some mysterious age or understanding:
1 - in the book of life?
2 - not held accountable for being born into sin?
3 - lost and hell bound?
I want to say they will go to heaven because of their innocence. But I struggle with the reality that the innocence I see is human innocence not spiritual innocence.
I don't have the answers but I do have many questions.
Maybe more later, if we can stay away from the KJV only stuff.
11:02 once again,
Sorry for my off-topic comments, but I couldn't resist when the KJV subject was brought up by someone else.
As for the topic of this post, I am a pastor and I always deal with children's baptisms on a case-by-case basis. After counseling with the children and their parents, I will make the decision. Sometimes I'll proceed with the baptism; others I'll wait.
One thing I ALWAYS do is wait until the parents are comfortable. If a child is ready and I'm ready but the parents are not quite sure yet, I'll always respect the wishes of the parents.
anon 2:00 pm
AGREED with everything you said. Thank you for posting. Sometimes it's lonely!
Maybe the Baptism debate has been approached from the wrong direction. Instead of starting with our disagreements, let's start with what Baptists/evangelicals and orthodox Christians AGREE upon: All persons who believe and have faith in Christ as their Savior should follow his command and be baptized as soon as possible.
So the next question is: Can an infant believe and have faith?
If I can prove to you from Scripture that infants not only can but DO believe and have faith, would you accept infant baptism as Scriptural?
http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com/2013/09/the-bible-says-that-infants-can-have.html
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