"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Sunday, January 16, 2011

Caner's Comeback Almost Complete - Will Speak to Students at FBC Jax Pastor's Conference

In only seven months since Ergun Caner was removed from his duties as dean of the Liberty Theological Seminary, his rise back to SBC prominence is almost complete - with a little bit of help from his friend Mac Brunson and the high schoolers of FBC Jacksonville.

It was announced to FBC Jax high schoolers and their parents this past Wednesday night that Ergun Caner will be speaking to the high school students at the Pastor's Conference on Saturday night, January 29th. I assume this is why Ergun Caner's picture and bio appear at the Pastor's Conference website although he doesn't appear any where in the speaking schedule: he must be the speaker at the 7:00 pm "Student Conference" on the conference agenda, for which there is no specific speaker listed. If he is the speaker there, why not put his name on the agenda? Why is the cat let out of the bag only a few weeks prior to the conference?

Pretty amazing that in just 7 months since his removal as President of the Liberty Theological Seminary over his 9 years of telling fibs in pulpits all over America - exaggerations of his testimony including his growing up in Turkey, learning of American culture through watching American TV shows while living in Turkey, how he was trained in Jihad - all false - that Ergun Caner is now given a platform to speak to high schoolers and presumably seminary students at the 2011 FBC Jax Pastor's Conference. I'm sure Caner will be in rare form - the last time he preached at FBC Jax in 2009 he had the faithful yucking it up over stereotypes of black worshippers ("shoes that match their suits that match their cars" and "satellite dish hats with curtain rods down the front") - so I'm sure Caner won't disappoint this time either.

I guess what makes this even worse is that FBC Jax really is where this whole ugly saga started when "Butch Caner" emerged from SBC obscurity after 9/11 as "Ergun Mehmet Giovanni Janel" back on November 21, 2001. It was on that day when Caner preached in the FBC Jax pulpit with Jerry Vines looking on, telling us he was raised in Europe, trained in "Islamic Youth Jihad", had "been trained to do that which was done on 11 September", and didn't know English well as a teenager. But it was all an exaggeration, as he moved to the states at the age of 3 and was raised in Ohio. His 11/21/01 sermon may very well have been a carefully orchestrated attempt to use our church to catapult him to stardom as an Islamic expert after 9/11.

So now he comes back to FBC Jax again, at the 2011 Pastor's Conference.

Make no mistake: with all the SBC bigwigs in town for the conference like Johnny Hunt, Jerry Vines, David Platt and Ed Stetzer - seminary presidents Al Mohler and Danny Akin and Chuck Kelly and Paige Patterson - along with thousands of conservative SBC pastors in town for the conference, this most certainly should be seen as the SBC putting it's stamp of approval back on Ergun Caner. He is back, and he is in the good graces of the SBC pastors and the leadership. The message is clear: pastors, it is now safe to invite him back into your churches to speak.

This rapid return of Caner to SBC prominence perhaps says just as much about the state of evangelical Christianity as did our eagerness to lap up his stories for nine years and roll in the aisles at his racial and gender stereotype jokes. The lesson is if you can tell a good yarn, make people laugh, have superior oratory skills and can draw a crowd and generate revenue - you will be in high demand. It is about the dollar, and who are your friends. Caner is a co-author with Brunson, and Vines is the one who helped him to fame in 2001 when he brought him to FBC Jax.

Neither can afford to let Caner fail.

197 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thank God he is back! We need Ergun to reach the Muslims. He knows how they think~

He understood what Paul meant when Paul said...I become all things to all people that I might when some to Christ.

Ergun became Muslim to win Muslims!

What is so hard to understand about that?

Stop drinking that "hater-aid" and get some love for God's man!

He's back, he's awesome, and he's going to shake up our new 3.5 million dollar Church!

God is blessing us real good people!

Get on this Gospel Train!!!

William said...

Anecdotally, I don't see Caner's name and face around the SBC nearly as much as prior to the scandal and wouldn't describe his comeback as being complete. His trajectory has merely leveled off. He doesn't have the cachet among SBCers he once had.

William

Sweet Tea Drinker said...

William, I agree. I don't see this as a comeback. FBC JAX is trying to straddle the fence here. They are allowing EC to speak, but not in the main auditorium , and with no mention on the speaking agenda. His picture is the very last one on the bio page, and they don't mention his website, only his brief bio and Twitter account.

It's like they're allowing him to speak, but keeping it very discreet. Kind of like letting him come to Thanksgiving dinner, and making him sit at the kids' table.

Dr Who said...

If you are a disciple of the SBC bunch and a part of those within the Baptist Mafia, this is how it is done. This is how they slowly get you back into the big show.

Seen it way to many times. Bit by Bit piece by piece.

Now my question is who will stand against them? I only know a very few that has the backbone to stand up against deception and stop this kind of Baptist maddness in its tracks.

Time to wake em up.

WishIhadknown said...

What an excellent example of Christianity and success for the young people. Just lie your way to success.

Anonymous said...

This sort of thing has been going on in SBC circles for decades. We just did not have the internet to let us know. Most SBC'ers have never heard of Russ Kaemmerling a former IMB trustee who was convicted of fraud. He was a trustee when he was investigated but did not step down. (He knew he was guilty and facts proved later). He did not have to step down because he is Paige Patterson's brother in law. That is how it works. There are so many such types of stories, but have been hidden from the pew sitters for years.

Now they do it in the open and amazing how ignorant the pew sitters still are. The facts are that anyone with the indwelling Holy Spirit could not knowingly lie for 9 years, profit from it, get caught and refuse to repent...instead make excuses. It is just not possible. Yet, many will argue that it IS possible. But that is because they do not understand what being Born Again really means.

What is ironic is that he is allowed to speak to High Schoolers...the very impressionable ones he should be kept away from. Yet, he is not given a seat at the big table for the conference because some adults might object. Personally, they are putting him where he will do the most damage to what it means to be Born Again. They are telling the HS kids, you can be a liar for 9 years, profit from it, no real repentance and claim to be Born Again.

This is why the SBC is spiritually dead for the most part. The organization is about the elevation of man and not Christ. If it were Christ, they would be too ashamed to even think of having Caner teach impressionable HS students.

This whole thing is no different that what RC Sproul did with his own son who was defrocked from the Presbyterians. He had him speak to the Ligoneir "pre conference" and paid him for it. It was part of rehabing his reputation and sending a message.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know if Caner got to keep his salary at Liberty when he was demoted. It is not unusual for them to demote for publicity sake but let them keep the same salary.

Anonymous said...

Wonder if Caner will get the customary SBC standing ovation ?

dee said...

I am so sad that Caner will be allowed to speak at FBC Jax. There was a time when discipline was applied to liars. They would spend time out of the pulpit, devoted to repentance and prayer prior to restoration.

This perverted belief that a pastor/seminarian is specially anointed and is to be treated differently than the flock is ruining the unity of the faith.

Now the flock gets thrown out of church for raising issues in the pastorate and the pastors/church leaders are a special class, right, Dog?


I don't know what to call this type of faith but it is not New Testament Christianity.

Anonymous said...

"Does anyone know if Caner got to keep his salary at Liberty when he was demoted."


Likely, he did get to keep his president's salary, but his real money is on the circuit.

He was demoted the way he was to reduce his circuit opportunities (as punishment), but not destroy him.

Anonymous said...

"This perverted belief that a pastor/seminarian is specially anointed and is to be treated differently than the flock is ruining the unity of the faith."

Scripture speaks of them as AMONG the believers. As in one of the priesthood. Any believer can "pastor" if they are mature in the faith.

Of course, many pull out Hebrews 13:17 which is a horrible translation (obey and rule like the Gentiles?) and if it stands... means no one would be able to leave Jim Jones but would have had to obey his "rulership" due to his title and declarations.

That is why ignorance of scripture is a dangerous thing. Even Paul warned of following "Paul" or "Apollos" instead of Christ.

Anonymous said...

I don't know what to call this type of faith but it is not New Testament Christianity.

January 16, 2011 2:11 PM

It is called: Business

Anonymous said...

"Ergun became Muslim to win Muslims!"

I thought he said he was raised Muslim and that is where he got his expertise. I did not realize he "became" Muslim later to win Muslims. Strange place to do it at Liberty....

You might also consider that most of his "Muslim talk" has been to Christians ABOUT Muslims. He even wrote a book for the Christian market about Muslims. He has profited off his Muslim talks by Christians.

Where has he gone or what has he done to "WIN" Muslims? Please give details because Ergun has not shared that part.

You are real good at making pedantic declarations without facts. Please back them up. You sound like the Manchurian Candidate on each thread. Parroting what you have been told by others. Try thinking things through on your own for a change.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Sweet Tea Drinker - I have to disagree with you here. This most certainly is part of the rehab of Caner and puts him back on the map. It is a concerted effort to help Caner complete his comeback. Look at the list of speakers. It is a who's who in the SBC, including some very prominent preachers outside of the SBC.

He is invited to be one of "them", the annointed ones. He will be there with his brother, shaking hands and attendees will stand in line to shake his hand and tell him how great he is, that he should hang in there against the attacks, etc. etc.

Look for all of his ardent supporters like Rogers, Volfan, Guthrie, Lumpkins, and the rest will be there to hug and love on Caner to let him know everything is ok. I believe it was just a few weeks ago that Tim Rogers had Caner preach at his church. Caner is back, he's bad, and he's bustin' loose. And he gets to try his routine on the high schoolers at FBC Jax. Pretty sad.

I wonder if Craig D will be in town with his friend Ergun? Heck, why not let Craig D speak to the high school students also?

I want to know when Perry Noble is going to be invited. He and Caner would make a great one-two show.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Caner is a true Man of God!

He is a great example to Youth that when life hands you lemons, you make lemonade.

God gives second chances and Dr. Caner deserves one too.

All he did was stretch the truth a little and he did it to glorify God.

This man can win more people to Christ by sneezing then YOU can by a year of knocking on doors...The anointing is on him....you can't deny that Brother!

I heard some other Seminaries are after him as their President. He is a superstar on God's team and we need him to get our kids straight.

He is an atom bomb for God!

WishIhadknown said...

"Stretching the truth just a little" is still a lie. Do we have to lie to win people to Christ? Is the gospel so weak that we have to use lie and deceit? Is the Holy Spirit so powerless as to require this kind of evangelism? The Holy Spirit wins the lost to Christ we are witnesses. If a witness lies in court what happens? Do you like to be lied to? Do you teach your children that it is all right to lie?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Dr. Caner is a true Man of God!

He is a great example to Youth that when life hands you lemons, you make lemonade.

God gives second chances and Dr. Caner deserves one too.

All he did was stretch the truth a little and he did it to glorify God.

I heard some other Seminaries are after him as their President. He is a superstar on God's team and we need him to get our kids straight.

He is an atom bomb for God!

January 16, 2011 4:05 PM

"He is a great example to Youth that when life hands you lemons, you make lemonade." He made lemonade out of lies. He lied about his past, he lied about his father in law giving him moonshine, he lied about his father coming to America with many wives. Great example to our youth - You can stretch the truth and lie, make some cash and then when your called out on it, lie to cover up your previous lies. Awesome example to our young people!

"God gives second chances and Dr. Caner deserves one too." No one is saying he cant have a second chance, but to get a second chance you have to come clean and get rid of the issues that plagued your 1st".

"All he did was stretch the truth a little and he did it to glorify God." Show me where in the bible it says it is okay to lie to glorify God. Point out the scripture to justify his lies!

"He is a superstar on God's team and we need him to get our kids straight." - This superstar takes his kids to WWE and WWF wrestling events. Some of the most vulgar trash there is on TV and this "superstar of God" takes his kids to see this junk. Yeah kids lets lie to make a living and support media that is violent and degrading to women. What an excellent roll model for kids!!

Its all about money and those helping him make a comeback are supporting because they have a vested interest in him succeeding (books, etc). If there was no vested interest, he would have faded out by now.

In the end, Caner cares about Caner! His actions speak volumes about his lack of concern for anything other than himself and his wallet.

WishIhadknown said...

Oh yeah, one atom bomb can ruin your whole day!

Anonymous said...

Dr. Caner is a true Man of God!

-

We all hope he is, but how do you know he is. Are you an angle or the holy spirit or Jeses himself. The fact is you do not know. For all we know he might be employed by the devil. Do you know the devil is dressed in whith cloth? He is cunning and will even decieve the elect. But he dose sound good!

Anonymous said...

"God gives second chances and Dr. Caner deserves one too. "

No repentence necessary for those claiming to be Born Again?

"All he did was stretch the truth a little and he did it to glorify God."

One cannot Glorify God with lies.

Revelations 21

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”



Revelation does nt qualify lies as truth stretching or little white lies. Just liars...

And since this was written to believers it is not talking about "unbelievers" but those who profess Christ but aren't true believers. You will know them by their fruit.

start taking scripture seriously, friends. Some will even tell you that Rev 21 does not apply to us today.

Anonymous said...

"Its all about money and those helping him make a comeback are supporting because they have a vested interest in him succeeding (books, etc). If there was no vested interest, he would have faded out by now."

Actually, it is about the fact they all either blurbed his books, promoted them or wrote intro's to for them. They hitched to his star as he was rising (while lying). They had him in to speak to their people.

This is a bit embarassing. Best to circle the wagons and throw Caner a bone so he won't make a big deal about them buying into all his lies. If they admit they were wrong...what else have they been so wrong about? People will start questioning everything. Safer to bet on people not checking and being ignorant.

Remember, Caner got Giesler to defend him and that guy did not even bother to check it out. He was caught with his pants down when Liberty demoted Caner and Smathers had made public documents available to prove Caner lied, lied and lied...over and over for 9 years!

And everyone thinks these guys are so smart and godly.

This is a perfect example of why we should all stop following man and hitching to "their" ministries.

Anonymous said...

These guys were taken in by a fraud. No way are they going to admit it.

Anonymous said...

Caner's house is for sale in Lynchburg. Either he's downsizing due to smaller salary or he's moving out of town. (if you have nearly 500K you can buy it!)

Anonymous said...

I see the comments made by anon at 7:32 am and & 4:05 pm as being a joke....I think this person(s) regularly posts here and you guys all take him seriously! Can't you see he is pulling your leg?

Anonymous said...

"Be kind one to another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another JUST AS God in Christ Jesus forgave you." Eph 4:32

We love to be recipients of grace, but not distributers of the same amazing commodity. Wouldn't the most Christ-like reaction to this story be to pray for Ergun, for the students, and for the Gospel's forward progression?

If lying, lusting, pride, or materialism were disqualifiers for Christ-followers to speak, proclaim or live out the Gospel, who of us could stand?

The Revelation 21 passage (and I Cor 9 for that) is not used in context at all when you are speaking of a Christ-follower. The Revelation 21 passage is for the unsaved. If you are making the call that Ergun is not saved, that is a whole different posting...otherwise the Rev 21 is wrongly divided.

Just wondering if we have escaped the full weight of grace and redemption in all of our lives?

J. Davis

WishIhadknown said...

J. Davis
What do you teach your children about lying?

Dr Ergun Caner satire said...

J. Davis -

YES! That's how you do a Rick Flair smack down! WHAM

Thank you for throwing the spotlight back on the critics. Just throw it back on the critics. You see J. Davis, these people don't care about spreading the gospel - they just want to be corrosive to successful Christian speakers. In fact, they actually edited videos of me in order to frame me! Can you believe that? That's why I told that Lynchburg News and Advance reporter, when I was in Bristol at that prayer breakfast, that it takes more than edited videos to bring me down! And my entry back to FBC Jax is proof. So take that haters!

E.C.

P.S. I love bacon. That is all.

WishIhadknown said...

Would you continuing going to a Doctor who falsified his credentials? Would you allow an unrepentant Christian child molester to baby sit your children? Would you use an accountant who lied? A lawyer? Would you buy a car from a salesman you know that lies? If we honor liars are Christians any different than any pagan?

Anonymous said...

WishIhadknown,

I taught my kids that lying was wrong - because God is truth. I forgave them and never reminded them of something that God had forgiven them of completely.

Uncredentialed doctors, unrepentant molesters, and lying accountants are certainly potential recepients of the grace of Christ. They have broken society's laws and might pay a natural penalty, but not a spiritual penalty under the Gospel.

I don't think Ergun has been charged legally, but assuming His salvation he is free from his past.

J. Davis

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Justin - what about unrepentent bloggers, and their wives? Are they also free from judgment, and welcomed into the body, free from their past or do they still deserve trespass notices?

Or is that only for those of you who are the annointed ones?

:)

WishIhadknown said...

I'm not asking about salvation I am asking if you would employee or use any of these people.

When your children lied were there not consequences?

Anonymous said...

"If lying, lusting, pride, or materialism were disqualifiers for Christ-followers to speak, proclaim or live out the Gospel, who of us could stand? "

No wonder our mega churches are full! You can be "Born Again", a "New Creation" in Christ and remain totally depraved in behavior! No wonder people like them so much. They don't have to 'die to self' or ever grow in Holiness to spend eternity in Christ. No repentance necessary...sin all you want...it is expected!

I wonder what the Holy Spirit does in the people who attend these mega's....there seems to be little for Him to do since He is not convicting anyone of their sin.

Anonymous said...

"The Revelation 21 passage (and I Cor 9 for that) is not used in context at all when you are speaking of a Christ-follower. The Revelation 21 passage is for the unsaved. If you are making the call that Ergun is not saved, that is a whole different posting...otherwise the Rev 21 is wrongly divided."

You wish. True believers are not consistent willful liars. They would be convicted of the sin by the Holy Spirit and repent.

What was the purpose of sending the Holy Spirit to dwell in a believers life?

What you really want to believe is that Caner can be a long time willful liar, not repent and be saved.

Christianity has been so dumbed down that few understand how serious sin is. Do you believe Jesus hung on a cross so that we could continue in willful consistent sin. then how are we different from the world?

Anonymous said...

"We love to be recipients of grace, but not distributers of the same amazing commodity. Wouldn't the most Christ-like reaction to this story be to pray for Ergun, for the students, and for the Gospel's forward progression?"

What you are peddling is cheap grace. The most "Christlike" reaction is to treat Ergun as the Pharisee he is and shout it from the roof tops of Liberty that Caner does not represent a follower of Christ to them. Even though he was paid to do so for many years while he was lying through his teeth for profit and fame.

Remember Liberty's honor code for lying?

Anonymous said...

Caner's house is for sale in Lynchburg. Either he's downsizing due to smaller salary or he's moving out of town. (if you have nearly 500K you can buy it!)

January 16, 2011 8:09 PM

Does he have courses listed for the upcoming semester?

New BBC Open Forum said...

There was a time when discipline was applied to liars. They would spend time out of the pulpit, devoted to repentance and prayer prior to restoration.

Aw, come on. He didn't tweet on Twitter for over two months! Do you realize what a difficult time that must have been for him?

Wonder if Caner will get the customary SBC standing ovation ?

Only if the sun rises that morning.

He is an atom bomb for God!

God is blessing us real good people!

LOL! Come on, people. Don't you realize you're dealing with a troll here? Please don't feed it. Trolls thrive only when they're fed.

Dr. Ergun Caner satire

Yes, folks. In case you missed it, he's baaaaaack!

Uncredentialed doctors, unrepentant molesters, and lying accountants are certainly potential recepients of the grace of Christ.

Justin, I believe the key words there are "unrepentant" and "potential." Where's the evidence of repentance by EC?

Anonymous said...

WishIhadknown,

I would only give Ergun as much forgiveness as God has given you. Once you've done that then you can write whatever you would like about Ergun being an honored liar.

Yes, my kids had consquences when they lied. But God gave me authority over them to train and discipline. God didn't give me that authority of Ergun.

10:59 Anon, of course the Church is comprised of people who still struggle with sin, but they are not sinners. If after your salvation you have never given in to lying, pride, lust or materialism I'd love you for you to step out of the anonymous shadowland of blog comments and reveal yourself, I am in awe of your perfection.

And to many other anons at the end of the blog - - do we know that Ergun has not repented? Ergun is either unsaved and is acting like the ungodly pagan that he is OR he is saved and we are his brothers and eternal kingdom dwellers with him and need to support him in prayer and graciousness, JUST AS God did toward us. If in the last 6months you can show me that he is unrepentant and continues on in a lying spirit, then his local church needs to deal with that...but I don't see where that is the subject line of a blog.

J. Davis

Grace Need Not Count said...

WD, the good thing about this country is that anyone on this blog has the right to show up at FBC and picket Caner on the sidewalk. I say let's put a face to the voices here and all dissenters show up with signs and exercise their free speech rights.

Lynn said...

Could it be that Ergun Caner stopped lying because he got caught finally?

Could it be that the powers that be still want him around because he's their token ex-Muslim and also an entertaining speaker and has lots of personality?

He also displays the fundamentalist preacher attitude that fundamentalists so love.

Anonymous said...

Lynn,

I have not heard him speak, so I do not know if he is still lying publicly. I do know he still sells books when he speaks and if I remember correctly some of these books had "factual statements that are self-contradictory", so in my eyes he is still lying, because he is still selling books that are based on or contain lies about himself.

Dr Who said...

wait, wait, WAIT an ant minute,

These men can use the discipline angle and throw people out of a church, send trespass warnings, toss em like umpires in a game - and then say "forget about them",

but when one of these so called ministers in the Baptist cult is caught red handed doing wrong, lying, deceiving, molesting, etc......

they ramp up on the "forgiveness" angle, say he is "just human" and restore them back to their golden thrones with huge conference paydays, jobs / offers, titles, pastor positions, and other prominence within their convention?

Doesn't seem like the same standards are used here.

I say, the church and these fakes are using the term being "Hypocritical" at its best!

Sweet Tea Drinker said...

Has Ergun Caner ever publicly apologized, and asked for forgiveness? This convention would be the perfect time and place to do just that. Let's pray that he'll resist the temptation of pride, and humble himself.

Anonymous said...

To Anon at 11:10Pm:

Caner is on the class schedule to teach four classes on campus this semester. They are History of the Christian Church, Theology Survey II,Apol to Far Eastern Religions, & Apol to Near Eastern Religions

Anonymous said...

Has anyone ever counted all of the lies Ergun has made in his sermons?

He has never made a public correction on when he came to the USA.

When high school students google his name...wow...what are they to believe????

I doubt if Caner will have a Q and A time...

Anonymous said...

"hese men can use the discipline angle and throw people out of a church, send trespass warnings, toss em like umpires in a game - and then say "forget about them",

but when one of these so called ministers in the Baptist cult is caught red handed doing wrong, lying, deceiving, molesting, etc......

they ramp up on the "forgiveness" angle, say he is "just human" and restore them back to their golden thrones with huge conference paydays, jobs / offers, titles, pastor positions, and other prominence within their convention?"

They are like Diotrephes

Anonymous said...

" would only give Ergun as much forgiveness as God has given you. Once you've done that then you can write whatever you would like about Ergun being an honored liar."

This is what I mean by people not understanding the Gospel. What is written here is the perfect example.

They really do think they can be saved without repentence. My goodness, Jesus' first sermons were: Repent and believe.

If we can take Acts 5 seriously, we will know that Caner did not just lie to us, He lied to the Holy Spirit. Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead when they lied to the Body of Christ. And they only lied once! It is so sad what people have come to believe passes for a follower of Christ.

Anonymous said...

So 9:38 Anon, so are you saying that continued repentance is necessary for salvation? That would be unbiblical Christianity.

Why did the Holy Spirit not strike Ergun down? Could it be because he is sealed in the Spirit for salvation? And if Ergun is your brother in Christ then what is your response for his present situation.

I'll restate it again - - the only measure of forgiveness you should give to Ergun is in equal measure to the forgiveness and grace God gave to you. That's the standard.

J. Davis

Anonymous said...

"10:59 Anon, of course the Church is comprised of people who still struggle with sin, but they are not sinners. If after your salvation you have never given in to lying, pride, lust or materialism I'd love you for you to step out of the anonymous shadowland of blog comments and reveal yourself, I am in awe of your perfection."

There is no such thing as sinless perfection as even our very thoughts are sinful. And why we are told to take our thoughts captive. How much worse continual willful sinful ACTIONS over a long period of time.

But what you are talking about is totally different...Christians struggle but they do not live in willful, continual sin for years and years. They are convicted of it by the Holy Spirit and grow in Holiness. They do not profit off continual willful lies for years. They do not make merchandise of the Gospel.

If after you are saved, you continue in those things for years, you have not worked out your salvation with fear and trembling. You have believed a another gospel that is not true. You have believed the abherrant lies of cheap grace. You have contradicted Paul in your comments that one can sin more because grace abounds. Paul refuted that in Romans.

The Gospel is good news. There is FIRST bad news that one is convicted of and the reason why the good news IS good news. If you are still living the way you lived before receiving the truth and feel no godly sorrow, you had best get down on your knees.

Hebrews 10:

26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28 For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. 30 For we know the one who said,

“I will take revenge.
I will pay them back.”

He also said,

“The Lord will judge his own people."

31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


We must tell people the truth. Too many think we can live in willful sin for decades and claim salvation. The truth of the Word stands outside any one person. It is pure truth and we must proclaim it or we are telling lies about Christ and His sacrifice.


Without Holiness, no one will see God. (Hebrews 12)

Dr Who said...

J. Davis you say;

I'll restate it again - - the only measure of forgiveness you should give to Ergun is in equal measure to the forgiveness and grace God gave to you. That's the standard.

J. Davis

Ok, your so defensive concerning ministers and ERGUN and his "forgiveness", what about all those 93 at Two Rivers who were tossed by Sutton, and FBC and Brunson's tossing of Tom and his family, and then there is the fiasco's at Prays Mill with Everson and all his junk, and what about all the other well known and well documented issues concerning those within the Baptist conventions?

Where is the forgiveness and repentance for these that were unjustly removed and/or slandered?

Where are the written apologies? I have seen nor heard of any. No not one from any of those that were responsible! NONE!

Stop using the Bible so one sided!

CRICKETS.......

Anonymous said...

"So 9:38 Anon, so are you saying that continued repentance is necessary for salvation? That would be unbiblical Christianity."

What I am saying is that if one is really saved, one is continually growing in Holiness and "turning" from sin. As we grow in the Lord we start seeing how much sin and how deep it is in our lives and we now hate it. We are continually growing in Holiness.

If you do not see this in long time believers, you need to tell them the truth. IF they are saved, the indwelling Holy Spirit is convicting them of their sin and guiding them in Holiness.

The ones making their living off the Gospel should know this.

WishIhadknown said...

Anonymous said...”
I would only give Ergun as much forgiveness as God has given you. Once you've done that then you can write whatever you would like about Ergun being an honored liar.”

Exactly! If I engaged in perpetual lying and the exploitation of one of the darkest events in American history the way Caner has I would have no expectation to continue in my profession. In fact, I would hope and expect my Godly friends to intervene on the side of truth and righteousness.

When your children lied why were there consequences? Was it because you hated them? Did they cease being your children? Hardly! It was quite the opposite. You loved your children; it was their behavior that was unacceptable. You enforced consequences to correct bad behavior.

The cycle of forgiveness is demonstrated over and over in scripture. Sin, recognition, confession, repentance, and reformation.

To my knowledge, Caner has never recognized much less confessed to his sin so how can there be reformation? To continue to support a man who commits fraud is to only become an accessory to his sin.

I, for one, would resent having a fraud speak to the high schoolers in my church. It sends the message that truth and righteousness do not matter. It tells them you can say and do anything and hurt as many people as you want as long as you get ahead.

Anonymous said...

"Why did the Holy Spirit not strike Ergun down? Could it be because he is sealed in the Spirit for salvation? And if Ergun is your brother in Christ then what is your response for his present situation."

Forgiveness does not mean no consequences. But that is what you are selling. I can forgive Caner all I want but it will NOT help his standing before the Lord until he repents of willful lying while making merchandise of the Gospel.

God struck A and S down to show the NEW Body how seriously He takes sin. It is instructive but many gloss over it and think, whew...good thing He is not doing that anymore!

But, Now we have the NT scriptures to instruct us...they did not. Yet...YOU want a "sign" of His Holiness. Shame on you.

Anonymous said...

DrWho,

Crickets...that was clever.

I have not written anything about Sutton, Two Rivers, Brunson, FBC Jacksonville in this post - I am talking about grace received and grace expressed.

God has forgiven me a lot, I have a very difficult time witholding grace in light of my own forgiveness. I assume DrWho that you have been forgiven of a lot as well.

Without physical, legal charges I try to leave the spiritual charges in the court of the Righteous Judge - - I'll just be a distributer of the same grace I received to others.

J. Davis

Anonymous said...

"I'll restate it again - - the only measure of forgiveness you should give to Ergun is in equal measure to the forgiveness and grace God gave to you. That's the standard."

I can forgive an embezzler but that does not mean I would put them back in charge of the offerings.

Dr Who said...

J Davis,

Like all of the other Legalistic bloggers who respond on here,

You failed to answer the question and hide behind the "grace", "forgiven" and "restored" statue which realistically does not exist to all those Pharisees and to those who honor such Pharisees because they have NOT repented to those whom they have seeked to destroy.

It starts with personal apologies to which NONE have occurred. Until we all see personal apologies from these men,

I say "Expose" them, for which I have to say is the ONLY way the christian world will know who is really the "wolves in sheep's clothing".

Anonymous said...

"God has forgiven me a lot, I have a very difficult time witholding grace in light of my own forgiveness. I assume DrWho that you have been forgiven of a lot as well.

Without physical, legal charges I try to leave the spiritual charges in the court of the Righteous Judge - - I'll just be a distributer of the same grace I received to others."

Then Paul and the church at Corinth were wrong? Paul was wrong in Galatia and also in Ephesus.

You see, God WILL present a "pure" Bride to Himself. Not a "perfect" one but a "pure" Bride.

By your standard of "spiritual" charges we can have active, unrepentent liars, perverts, murderers, etc in the Body. If God does not strike them dead or there are no civil legal charges against them, we must allow that leaven to infiltrate and grow within the Bride because in your world, forgiveness means allowing it to continue and calling that grace. You pervert Grace. And the Cross by claiming that continual willful sin is to be expected in a believers life. What did Jesus mean when He said, You must be Born Again...of "spirit" and water? What about being a "new creation" in Christ?

Your comments remind me of the warning in Jude to those who have "crept" in. And in Acts 20, where Paul warns of the wolves who are "among" the elders.

1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity[a] that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it! 2 Corin 11

I know said...

Shepherds never drive sheep, they walk ahead of the flock and lead them.

These men now are not a shepherd. They are butchers! They cut out anyone who is opposition so they can "have it all".

WishIhadknown said...

Dog,
My last post was here but now it’s gone. Did I do something wrong? If I did, I apologize, just let me know.
Thanks

Anonymous said...

26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b] 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. Acts 20

When we fail to present the entire Gospel (good and bad news), we have blood on our hands. There are many now that want to draw disciples after themselves instead of to Christ. Many cannot see this because it has become so normal and defines what passes for Christianity these days. They need to go alone to a prayer closet and beg the Holy Spirit to show them truth as they read the Word...alone.

Salvation is FREE but following Christ is not easy because we must die to self. We will not stay as willful unrepentent liars selling the gospel as merchandise.

Run from the wolves as they will devour you.

Anonymous said...

"I say "Expose" them, for which I have to say is the ONLY way the christian world will know who is really the "wolves in sheep's clothing"."

Good word Mac. Still slamming those who disagree with you, right? Save it for the pulpit to the kool-aid drinkers who want to hear you rant and rave. We don't need your kind of beating others up here.

Anonymous said...

It is not legalistic to ask Ergun to come clean and set the record straight on his lies.

When did he come to America? 1978, 1979, 1969, 1970???

Who and when did he debate in 13 countries and 35 states?

Did he watch Dukes of Hazard in Turkey?

How was he trained in Jihad?

Did he grow up in Turkey, near the Turkish-Iraqi border?

Man!!! just look at the Ergun file
http://babyloniansquirrel.blogspot.com/2010/05/caner-file.html

What are these high school student to think?

IF Ergun would have repented and set the record straight we wouldn't be talking about him.

Anonymous said...

"Exactly! If I engaged in perpetual lying and the exploitation of one of the darkest events in American history the way Caner has I would have no expectation to continue in my profession."

I am glad I am not like other men...

Appalled Parent said...

I am shocked at the very poor judgment shown by Mac Brunson and the Youth Pastors in allowing Mr Caner to speak to our young people. We are trying to instill Godly values in our children, and this flies in the face of everything we teach them!

Personally, I will not be allowing my family to attend. We as members are accountable. If the members did not support this kind of activity, in attendance, and with offerings, it would stop.

Vote with your feet......Just say NO !

WishIhadknown said...

Well, I am definitely not the one representing myself as someone that I am not. I am not the one profiting from lies and deception. I have not exploited 9/11 for my own selfishness. Yes, I am like all men but in this instance I am not like this man.

Anonymous said...

"Well, I am definitely not the one representing myself as someone that I am not. I am not the one profiting from lies and deception. I have not exploited 9/11 for my own selfishness. Yes, I am like all men but in this instance I am not like this man."

Luke 18:11 (KJV)
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

At least you are keeping yourself biblical. The wrong side of it but it is in the bible, none the less.

WishIhadknown said...

Guess that does make me just like Caner after all.

WishIhadknown said...

So let us all continuing sinning that grace may abound.

Anonymous said...

As a member of FBCJ we too share your feelings. Forgive yes, but to bring him back to teach our young people is a slap in our face - I commend you for what you wrote and know other parents who feel the same way we do. Our family refuse to walk into the building for this conference because of this poor judgment.
===============================
"I am shocked at the very poor judgment shown by Mac Brunson and the Youth Pastors in allowing Mr Caner to speak to our young people. We are trying to instill Godly values in our children, and this flies in the face of everything we teach them!

Personally, I will not be allowing my family to attend. We as members are accountable. If the members did not support this kind of activity, in attendance, and with offerings, it would stop.

Vote with your feet......Just say NO !

Anonymous said...

"So let us all continuing sinning that grace may abound."

Is that really what you think the passage of the Publican and Pharisee is about?

WishIhadknown said...

No, enlighten me. You must have much more insight than I.

Anonymous said...

"So let us all continuing sinning that grace may abound.

Is that really what you think the passage of the Publican and Pharisee is about?

January 17, 2011 12:29 PM

It is in Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Anonymous said...

"Personally, I will not be allowing my family to attend. We as members are accountable. If the members did not support this kind of activity, in attendance, and with offerings, it would stop. "

Exactly. Wolves cannot continue without followers and financial support from those followers.

Anonymous said...

WishIhadknown,

Pharisees were not Christ-followers, they were not redeemed, they were not covered by grace because they continued to live under the law.
If you say that Ergun is unsaved, then all of your statements are true - he is condemned and he is not included in the purity of the bride.
If you are compelled to believe in the salvation of Ergun Caner then you need to see him in the same light that God sees him, COMPLETELY redeemed and COMPLETELY wrapped in the righteousness of Christ.
I'm not saying he should speak at FBCJ, I'm not saying that he shouldn't repent for his public sin, but I am saying I am amazed at how quickly a broken, sinful, guilty, despicable man like you and like me who received the undeserving grace of Christ can so quickly direct such overwhelming judgment on a brother in Christ who was saved with the same blood you were needfully saved with as well.

I'll say it again - - it's amazing how those who were hopeless without grace so quickly back off of dispensing it to others.

J. Davis

WishIhadknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WishIhadknown said...

When did I say Caner was unsaved?

Anonymous said...

Pharisees were not Christ-followers, they were not redeemed, they were not covered by grace because they continued to live under the law.
If you say that Ergun is unsaved, then all of your statements are true - he is condemned and he is not included in the purity of the bride.
If you are compelled to believe in the salvation of Ergun Caner then you need to see him in the same light that God sees him, COMPLETELY redeemed and COMPLETELY wrapped in the righteousness of Christ.
I'm not saying he should speak at FBCJ, I'm not saying that he shouldn't repent for his public sin, but I am saying I am amazed at how quickly a broken, sinful, guilty, despicable man like you and like me who received the undeserving grace of Christ can so quickly direct such overwhelming judgment on a brother in Christ who was saved with the same blood you were needfully saved with as well.

I'll say it again - - it's amazing how those who were hopeless without grace so quickly back off of dispensing it to others.

J. Davis

January 17, 2011 1:01 PM

J. Davis, What is a long time professing Christian? You must really delve into that because I do not think you really know. You have made up your own Jesus to fit your agenda. You give yourself away when you write this:

"I'm not saying he should speak at FBCJ, I'm not saying that he shouldn't repent for his public sin, but I am saying I am amazed at how quickly a broken, sinful, guilty, despicable man like you and like me who received the undeserving grace of Christ can so quickly direct such overwhelming judgment on a brother in Christ who was saved with the same blood you were needfully saved with as well."

Again, you ignore Hebrews 10 and ALL of 1 John and much more truth of the Word. You want to believe that one can live in continual willful sin....knowing the truth and be saved. You think we REMAIN dispicable and guilty after we are saved. You teach a cheap grace that cheapens the blood of Christ.

You negate the fact that true salvation is transformational. A work of the Holy spirit that continues in a believers life. Perhaps it is because we see so little of it we do not know what it looks like in a long time believer.

You want to make it a sin for anyone to say there is rotten fruit where there is obvious rotten fruit EVEN by one who is paid to be a Christian.

A good tree does not bear bad fruit. It can't.

And you say this:

"I'll say it again - - it's amazing how those who were hopeless without grace so quickly back off of dispensing it to others."

Caner makes his living as a teacher and preacher of the Word. Many have depended on him to KNOW the truth of the Word. You imply that all that time he has been teaching the Word to others, he was "hopeless" and without grace. You have just described him as a fraud for all those 9 years.

Juniper said...

I wandered here from another site looking for something else and then I got caught up in figuring out who Ergun Caner is and what he did. As far as I can tell he has lied about his birth, upbringing, activities, name and family of origin all while feeding really bad muslim and arabic stereotypes and this has all been done to further the Kingdom. AND some people insist this is something you can get beyond with a minimal apology that accepts little personal responsibility. Okay, moving on to aliens next.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:23,

You make my case, of course we are no longer sinners nor dirty nor despicable after salvation. We are clean, the righteousness of God, forgiven and holy - KEPT by Christ and protected by the Holy Spirit.
If Ergun is a Believer then he is KEPT by Christ, he is sealed by the Spirit. Your words and IwishIhadknown's words are so graceless.
Your cheap grace (Bonhoeffer coined term) statement is interesting. If Ergun is leaning into costly grace for salvation then Believers need to praise God that Ergun's promised salvation is not dependent upon his own words, his own faults and his own mistakes. And we should praise God for the costly grace in our own lives.
I know what most of you want - you want Ergun to publicly say he lied about his birthplace, his associations, his hometown, his language, and his story. If he does that, does that make his salvation or his place in the Family more secure - of course not!

Your reference of all of I John is a great place to start - - the love of God cannot exist in one who hates his brother. And many of you have proved that you have hate for Ergun...who no longer lives, but Christ in him.

Grace is the only commodity that we plead for that we refuse to disperse to others. If I am going to err in life, I always want to err on the side of grace. When I stand before the Throne I want grace, not justice!

J. Davis

Anonymous said...

"If Ergun is a Believer then he is KEPT by Christ, he is sealed by the Spirit. Your words and IwishIhadknown's words are so graceless.
Your cheap grace (Bonhoeffer coined term) statement is interesting. If Ergun is leaning into costly grace for salvation then Believers need to praise God that Ergun's promised salvation is not dependent upon his own words, his own faults and his own mistakes. And we should praise God for the costly grace in our own lives.
"

Then those who profess Christ who continue to practice willful continual sin have nothing to worry about. No wonder the Christendom has so many professing Christian pedophiles and perverts. Sin all you want because grace abounds! And if anyone says a word, then they hate you. (Of course, they hate you more if they do not speak up because they do not care about your eternal life)

Too, lying is not a civil offense so why should a professing believer be concerned about continual willful lying of another professing believer? After all, Rev and all other passages do not apply to us...we get a pass.

Grace covers it all. No need to repent and grow in Holiness so that we will see God as scripture teaches.

You are reading a different Bible and have no clue what the work of the Holy Spirit is in a believers life. We see this everywhere...the understanding of the Holy spirit is awol in most churches these days.

You write:
"Your reference of all of I John is a great place to start - - the love of God cannot exist in one who hates his brother. And many of you have proved that you have hate for Ergun...who no longer lives, but Christ in him."

So now, pointing out rotten fruit is hating your brother? I am in good company with Paul who advised the Corin church to kick out the one in obvious sin, TURN HIM OVER TO SATAN SO HE COULD BE SAVED. He even added a list and made sure to distinguish those in the world and those who profess Christ. It is in 1 Corin 5. Paul does not mention willful liars who are paid to teach the Word...so guess they get a pass in the Body.

1 John also says:

18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

What you are trying to say is that if anyone points out sin they are not loving their brother. You get to decide how that is done. Paul wrote about individual sin and even named names in a letter for people to read for 2000 years.

According to you, that is sin and hateful. Not loving. Paul warned of wolves from among the elders so he was not loving and giving cheap grace.

What you do not realize is that Paul differentiated between those who are deceived out of ignorance and those who deceive on purpose. (See 1 Tim)

Paul includes himself in the first category...that he was deceived out of ignorance before he was saved and has great mercy on those like him. But those who deceive on purpose, knowing the truth...he names names.

Was Caner deceieved out of ignorance as a professing believer PAID to teach the Word? Was he ignorant of his own lying?

This only proves we must check and test everything. We are surrounded by wolves and those like you that think continual willful sin by long time professing believers is normal Christian life.

Somehow you want to make being a liar ok for Christians. Even those paid to teach the Word.

Anonymous said...

What a great deal! Jesus hung on the cross so that we could sin all we want and have eternal life! No wonder Christians look just like the world!

Grace Need Not Count said...

Vote with your feet......Just say NO !

Come on FBCJAX Member. Vote with your feet by forming a picket line complete with signs and the media.

If you are not ready to vote with your feet like that then I say find a new church that does not let heretics teach.

Anonymous said...

Lying is a sin, period. Lust is a sin, period. Pride is a sin, period.

Don't show up to the conference, and express to FBCJ that you think it is unwise to invite him.

But to say, "He's a liar" "He only cares about his wallet" "picket Caner on the street" "his $500,000 home" "believer in another gospel" - - all of those statement made on this one posting are pretty arrogant. Yes, Ergun's past lies are arrogant also - - but as far as I can tell he has never put any of you personally in his crosshairs of harsh comments.

I'm done for several weeks, I'll check back in after he speaks in Florida and see what people have to say about him...after I take my pepto to handle to vitriol of fellowship Christ-followers.

J. Davis

Dr Who said...

J Davis you say;

"the love of God cannot exist in one who hates his brother. And many of you have proved that you have hate for Ergun...who no longer lives, but Christ in him".

OK, If Christ does live in him, then why won't he confess his lies, and deceit, deception, ignorance .....and sincerely apologize and tell the truth?

Has anyone heard him do this? Anyone? If so, post when and where and I am done!

Crickets.......

Anonymous said...

10 - Write a personal letter to every church he lied at and pay for the church to do a mass mailing to all members with a personal apology attached.

9 - Pay for the 15 minute space time at the next conventions (state and national) which he stood before and lied. In this 15 minutes he must cry for at least 12 of those minutes and beg forgiveness from all who ever heard him lie. He must also send a mass mailing to all southern baptist proclaiming his sorrow and repent to them.

8 - Cover himself in sackcloth and ashes. Wailing out loud for no less than 40 days.

7 - Cut off his tongue so he can not do it again.

6 - Commit to never speak at a church gathering, convention or covered dish luncheon until the Lord returns.

5 - Spend the next 40 years of his life standing on street corners proclaiming he is the chiefest of sinners.

4 - He must never witness again for his past is to wicked to ever be used of God.

3 - He must turn in all his educational degrees, announce that they are worthless since he sinned since getting them.

2 - He must not sell his house but give it away for the kingdom of God, keeping current on any monthly payments until it is paid off in full then he must continue payments to all anonymous bloggers for the time they spent honoring God talking about him.

1 - He must wear underwear 4 sizes too small so as he will be uncomfortable at all times.

The and only then (maybe) will we forgive him.

Anonymous said...

"Has anyone heard him do this? Anyone? If so, post when and where and I am done!"

Way to go Thomas. If you can't feel it, see it or first hand experience it, it just can't be so.

Anonymous said...

"But to say, "He's a liar" "He only cares about his wallet" "picket "Caner on the street" "his $500,000 home" "believer in another gospel" - - all of those statement made on this one posting are pretty arrogant. Yes, Ergun's past lies are arrogant also - - but as far as I can tell he has never put any of you personally in his crosshairs of harsh comments."

Really, You did not follow his comments after he was outed?

Of course I knew Caner was a fraud a while back since I read his email exchange with White concerning a debate. (not a fan of White, either) But Caner came off as a petulant child who lied and obfuscated even the most basic questions. It was bizarre to read of a man who is paid to be a professional Christian. I was asounded. He lied back then about debates with Imams he never held.

What you are claiming is any negative truth said about Caner is sin. We see lots of folks making their living off the Gospel claiming that about themselves. And their followers would rather hide the negative truths than admit they have been following wolves or hirlings.

Anonymous said...

The and only then (maybe) will we forgive him.

January 17, 2011 3:38 PM

We can forgive him all we want but it will not change the truth. Only God can do that.

Only the Holy Spirit can grant him godly sorrow for being a fraud as a paid teacher of the Word for so long. And for how many students he led astray with the knowledge he turns out to be a liar and is unrepentent. That is the false gospel Caner peddles.

James 3:1
1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Liberty was not going to do anything and was very hard hearted about it until the media got ahold of it. Then they demoted him. Liberty is just as bad. It was bad PR that made their decision, it was never about righteousness. Kind of makes their honor code look a bit silly.

WishIhadknown said...

I have never said Caner is unsaved and I really do not appreciate your twisting my words to make it seem as if I do. It is you who sits in judgment of me.
Excuse me for thinking that such things as integrity and truthfulness still had a place in the emergent church. I guess I am wrong. The only thing that counts is being entertaining, telling a good story and popularity.
Since you don’t like the way I say things go here and read this explains my position better than I can:

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Bible+Q&A/BQ71910_Failed-Pastors-and-Effective-Ministry

Argue with John McArthur for a while.

Anonymous said...

I am not so sure Caner can talk about much of anything except himself and Islam. That was his shitck for 9 years.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:02,

Hey, you're right! If he's still selling books that have his incorrect story in them, he's still lying!

He's obviously got lots of protection to keep going. He's protected by Christians who feel they are not better than him, they must forgive him, etc. But I'd say his main protection is that probably most people have no clue that his history was a bunch of lies. They are in the dark.

I mean if there's an auditorium full of people, and you had them raise their hands if they had heard of the Ergun Caner scandal, how many would raise their hands? Probably very few. Bingo.

dee said...

J Davis
Caner spoke at my son's Christian school 9/09. He lied to my son and many of classmates. My son, and his classmates have not received an apology. I have had to explain to my son how supposed seminary presidents lie and don't say they are sorry. So, what say you?

Anonymous said...

Did JDavis suggest proof that Caner DIDN'T repent must be provided?

That would be peculiar. What's he up to, I wonder?

Does Davis call for Ted Haggard to be reinstated to the good graces of SBC's lucrative lecture circuit?

I mean Haggard has repented all over the place and he did go through three weeks of intense spiritual counselling to shed himself of the gay.

Butch, I don't think you're going to get any rest from these folks until you cough up a little Jimmy Swaggart confessional schtick. What are the SBC bigwigs afraid of?

You must have someone by the short and burlies.

LA

Sweet Tea Drinker said...

LA,

I see your point. Even if Ergun publicly repented, it could all just be part of the act. But that would be between him and God. Even so, it would still be a bigger gesture than what we've heard so far.

Dr Who said...

I will repeat what I said and ask earlier to Caner and his Baptist disciples.......

" J Davis you say;

"the love of God cannot exist in one who hates his brother. And many of you have proved that you have hate for Ergun...who no longer lives, but Christ in him".

OK, If Christ does live in him, then why won't he confess his lies, and deceit, deception, ignorance .....and sincerely apologize and tell the truth?

Has anyone heard him do this? Anyone? If so, post when and where and I am done!

Crickets....... "
Come on SBC, Caner, and your Disciple supporters, there has GOT to be some evidence if you really have done it the Biblical way.

Still hearing tha Crickets////////

Give us a link or text so we can read it cause I want to be done with this issue IF proof is provided!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Justin and others: if you think that Caner is repentent over his lies, that maybe behind closed doors he repented, you need to go back and read my article from September 25, 2010, and the Lynchburg News and Advance article which I reference in my article..

He publicly has said that "it takes more than edited videos to bring me down"...and this doozy:

“Every pastor in America, ask them if you can go through 200-odd hours of your sermons. Would they find where you said your kids’ names wrong or dates wrong? Yeah, of course. You just smile and move on.”

He is perfectly intent on NOT apologizing, and mischaracterizing the LU investigation team's efforts, and characterizing his lies as mispronouncing his kids' names wrong, or getting a few dates wrong.

"You just smile and move on." Not "repent and move on". Just smile. Lovely.

This is the kind of man that FBC Jax is bringing into the Pastor's Conference to speak to their students.

Unbelievable.

WishIhadknown said...

Another thing that gets me is the fact that the man has an awesome testimony if he would just stick to the truth. Why does he feel he needs to lie and exaggerate?

Keith said...

Exactly, wishihad..". Me and my family were at FBC for his 911 message. We had no reason to suspect this story was anything but true and factual. After all he was in the pulpit of our church.
When we learned of his deception and poor response after being found out, it was a double blow.
The main problem there seems to be some who still defend this man eventhough he has not publically repented. This group has the "Wild Kingdom" syndrome.Marlin Perkins hosted this show with this disclaimer: "These scenes whether actual or created depict authenticated facts"! Caner did not need to add to his story. Now they are introducing him back to the teenagers. Wow

New BBC Open Forum said...

EC spoke to students this week at a Strength to Stand Conference in Pigeon Forge, TN.

New BBC Open Forum said...

WishIhadknown said...

Dog,
My last post was here but now it’s gone. Did I do something wrong? If I did, I apologize, just let me know.
Thanks

January 17, 2011 11:18 AM


Welcome to the strange, mysterious, and frustrating world of Blogger! Happens to me all the time. Do not worry. This too shall pass, at least for a season.

Anonymous said...

The problem is those in the pews. They LOVE a good testimony. Caner simply provides one. He gives them what they want.

Also re him repenting. If he suddenly got a conscience and wanted to sincerely set things right, he would not do something silly like crying. He would state exactly what his lies were, correct the record of what his actual history was, ask forgiveness if possible for disrespecting people by lying to them, stop speaking and do something for God in the background as a way to show his sincerity.

He's not going to do any of that. He has a talent, and he's gonna keep on using that talent to make money from uninformed people, or from informed people who are like him.

Anonymous said...

I see your point. Even if Ergun publicly repented, it could all just be part of the act. But that would be between him and God. Even so, it would still be a bigger gesture than what we've heard so far.

January 17, 2011 9:56 PM

If Caner ever experienced true repentance he would not stay in any limelight at all no matter how small the venue and he would stay off stages for a long time. It is like putting an embezzler back in charge of the offering right after being caught.

If truly repentent, the embezzler would be convicted of his sin (true repentence) and would know to stay away from tempting venues such as handling other people's money.

He would strive to serve the Lord quietly with no fame or profit attached.

Few understand that true repentence brings real brokenness and godly sorrow. We rarely see it so we don't recognize it.

Most think it means "sorry" or admitting one did wrong. No. It is a complete change of heart and mind.

January 17, 2011 10:19 pm

Anonymous said...

"If truly repentent, the embezzler would be convicted of his sin (true repentence) and would know to stay away from tempting venues such as handling other people's money."

Using this principle Paul would have never approached anyone from "The Way" which he had lived to punish (abuse).

Dr Ergun Caner satire said...

Thank you Dog for reminding people that we are not piling on a poor victim here. We are only asking for a highly public figure with open public sin to repent of it. As of this very day, Ergun Caner contends the evidence against him were "edited videos". That is not repentence, that is another lie. Another lie. And no one close to him, with any power, (read financial leverage) love him enough to call him to repentence.

Folks - Ergun Caner's father died and went to hell as a Muslim, not believing Jesus was the Savior. So what does Ergun Caner do? He spits on his own unsaved father's grave by telling crowds his father was a polygamist! He specifically told the Marines - on video- that his father had "three wives at a time". We now know this to be a lie. Can you imagine trashing your dead's father memory by lying about him in such a way for your own gain?

This is Ergun Caner. Proud member of Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg Virginia. Jonathan Falwell is his pastor, and apparently this conduct is ok with him as long as Caner helps with Liberty's enrollment numbers. What other conclusion can we draw?

Anonymous said...

"If truly repentent, the embezzler would be convicted of his sin (true repentence) and would know to stay away from tempting venues such as handling other people's money."

Using this principle Paul would have never approached anyone from "The Way" which he had lived to punish (abuse).

January 18, 2011 10:48 AM

How silly. Paul was not a professing believer of the Way when he was persecuting Christians. He was convicted of his sin and need for a Savior on the road to Damascus. He stopped persecuting christians that moment.

In Contrast, Caner has been a professing believer and paid teacher of the Word for many years.

So, what is his excuse?

He cannot claim he was not saved all those years of lying while being a teacher of the Word and "Christian" speaker, Christian College President, etc.

Anonymous said...

"Folks - Ergun Caner's father died and went to hell as a Muslim, not believing Jesus was the Savior. So what does Ergun Caner do? He spits on his own unsaved father's grave by telling crowds his father was a polygamist! He specifically told the Marines - on video- that his father had "three wives at a time". We now know this to be a lie. Can you imagine trashing your dead's father memory by lying about him in such a way for your own gain"



Did he have 3 wives in Ohio or Sweden? or did he leave 2 behind in Turkey? Oh wait...it was another lie.

And what about his mom? How did this lie edify her?

Truly despicable man.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Caner has forgotten more about the Bible than YOU have ever known?

How many people did YOU win to Jesus in 2010????

This is all a crock....he apologized....get over it!!!!

Thank God your not GOD!!!!

If YOU were God, we would not have 1st and 2nd Peter because Peter would never had a second chance!!

If YOU were God, "doubting" Thomas would have been "disfellowshipped" Thomas because he made a mistake and I am going to start a blog and keep him in the ditch!

GROW UP AND GET A LIFE!!!!

Anonymous said...

What in this world is wrong with Ergun Caner? Could it be that he truly is NOT a born-again believer?

If he is, why wouldn't he have the integrity to get up in a pulpit, tell us that he has asked God for His forgiveness, confess to the people of God specifically what he has done wrong & ask the people of God for forgivenss?

Do you know why he hasn't done so? It's because, if he has ANY integrity at all, he doesn't have enough to let it involve his wallet!!!

If he was truly repentant, he would recall all unsold books b/c those books are full of his "embellishing the truth a little bit." How dare he be allowed to speak to students at the conference?

J. Davis says once we're saved then we're always saved. TRUE! But when we are saved we must ask for forgiveness every day for our on-going sin! We fail God every day -- that's sin and to be in fellowship with our Savior, we must confess our sin before God. And, in the case of Ergun Caner, he needs to confess it before God's people b/c we are the ones who have heard him say over & over the same lies -- and we believed them.

It would be wonderful to be able to be a fly on the wall during his time with the students at the FBCJ pastors conference and have a few brave students stand up together & ask Caner why he has not pulled the unsold books! Ask him why he has not publicly acknowledged that he lied! Ask him why he is still preaching!

When we are born-again believers, if we lie we immediately confess that sin to our God and to whomever we lied to -- no matter how much it might hurt us right in the wallet!

As I said elsewhere, if I was Caner (or Brunson or other preachers who have besmirched the Gospel) I'd be afraid to be in the pulpit for fear that God would choose to make him a public example of what God thinks about sin!

Anonymous said...

"Folks - Ergun Caner's father died and went to hell as a Muslim, not believing Jesus was the Savior.
-
These are heeded strong words that should be directed at the world following SBC.

Anonymous said...

"How many people did YOU win to Jesus in 2010????"

"WE" do not win anyone to Jesus. We can only plant seeds and water. God gives the increase. Quit crediting man for what belongs to God.

We cannot plant or water with lies. Satan is the father of lies. That is his domain.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Caner has forgotten more about the Bible than YOU have ever known?

How many people did YOU win to Jesus in 2010????

This is all a crock....he apologized....get over it!!!!

Thank God your not GOD!!!!

If YOU were God, we would not have 1st and 2nd Peter because Peter would never had a second chance!!

If YOU were God, "doubting" Thomas would have been "disfellowshipped" Thomas because he made a mistake and I am going to start a blog and keep him in the ditch!

GROW UP AND GET A LIFE!!!!

January 18, 2011 11:18 AM

The exclamation point commenter is back. What snappy sound bites. Too bad you can only parrot what you have heard. We are convinced you cannot hold your own in any deep discussion of what the Word actually teaches. therefore...you sound bite with lots of exclamation points.

Anonymous said...

IF saved, always saved. And who can tell these days with a Christianity that looks more like business than dying to self.

Anonymous said...

He that winneth souls is wise! -Proverb 11:30

For all you "anti soul winners", not my words, HIS WORDS!!!

Proof again that the individuals that frequent this Blog will condemn even the Truth's from God's Holy Word!!!

These are the same people who say "Ergun is not saved", "Ergun should be working at Auto Bell because he misspoke"....WHO DIED AND MADE YOU GOD????

When people start saying that Soul-Winning is wrong and start demanding who can speak at what conference...it is time to get off your high horse and get on your knees and ask Jesus for forgiveness!!!!

Some of the commenters here need to get off the internet and get in your BIBLE!!!!

WishIhadknown said...

Can someone please explain to me why expecting a man telling his testimony in church on Sunday morning or anytime for that matter to tell the truth is “graceless?”

WishIhadknown said...

"Proof again that the individuals that frequent this Blog will condemn even the Truth's from God's Holy Word!!!"

Interesting that you use the word "Truth."

We use it and we're condemed you use it and you're righteous.

Dr Who said...

I posted the question over 24 hours ago and still waiting on the proof that he "apologized" or "repented".

Crickets from the SBC and Baptist disciples of Caner

Again, just show one bit of evidence and I am done.

Sounds like the Everson path
deny deny deny

Proof please and I am done. Just one text or website where he publicly repented or admitted fault or asking for forgiveness.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Exclamation point,

You cannot have credibility when you sound like Creflo Dollar.

Anonymous said...

Anon January 18, 2011 11:49 AM:

I'm not questioning Ergun Caner because he "misspoke."

"Misspoke" is what happens when you say something like: "I came to Jacksonville in 1989." And the real truth of the matter is that I came to Jacksonville in 1988!

"Misspoke" is NOT what happens when you build a life story based on lies, lies and more lies!

You see how words mean different things *said with heavy sarcasm*? There is a vast difference between someone who "misspoke" and someone who flat out "lied."

WishIhadknown said...

Since someone brought up Peter let’s see what the Holy Spirit trough Peter has to say about lying and deceit:

1Peter 2:12
Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
1 Peter 3:10-12
Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech. He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.
1 Peter 3:16
Keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

Oh, by the way, these are from the Bible, you know the WORD of God.

Anonymous said...

Someone suggested a showing of placard carriers to express dismay at Caner's presence at the conference and his continued withholding of contrition.

I think that would be justified and, if handled prudently, could be very productive.

The SBC illuminati are apparently systemically bound to cronyism, but if the enough light from varied sources were revisited upon recent scandals and controversies, I suspect they just might be persuaded to give Butch the elbow.

I just may contact three local SBC mega-pastors to express my concerns, press for their opinions of the Caner mess, and inform them of intended protests and letters to the editors of television and paper news.

While I'm at it, I'll get their takes on David Platt's humble lifestyle paradigm.

Apparently enough have had enough; it's time to act. What might be a suitable resource for organizing such activities?

LA

Anonymous said...

I think Caner is playing all of you for fools. He's demonstrating how gullible Christians can be. If someone tries to call him out on his lies, he'll play the victim of persecution.

I'd say forget what the Bible says, forget putting it all in Christian terms. Simply look at it as a man who's a good story-teller. Sit back and enjoy the "testimony." The Muslims must be laughing their heads off.

To me, this goes to show that in Christian circles, you don't have to BE anything. You just have to be a good bull-shi**er.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:14,
Excellent idea. Make more people aware of the problems with Caner.

Anonymous said...

LA,
I would love to get Rev Herb Reavis' take on this. He's the pastor of North Jax Baptist Church, two miles north of FBC, and another prominent mega church.

Also, we should contact Jeff Brumley, the religion editor for The Florida Times Union. Maybe Jeff could be present at the conference and ask a few pointed questions.

Ergun Caner is speaking in the Ruth Lindsey auditorium. There is ample space to picket on Ashley and Hogan streets.

Anonymous said...

Picket, don't be a cricket.

Oh yeah, put these heart things to action. I live in Texas, but would love to be part of a dignified protest of this charlatan.

To the exclamation point abuser, pragmatism has no place in the ministry. Pragmatism supplants integrity every time. Stop with the hero worhsip, he's just a regular sinner like us.

Anonymous said...

I suggest Rev. Falwell be made aware that Caner is not really all that welcomed by a log of the members of FBCJ. Wow, just think how tight security is going to be around him - he's going to look really important.

The arrogance of Brunson putting him on the speaking circuit to our young people is beyond stupidity!

New BBC Open Forum said...

To me, this goes to show that in Christian circles, you don't have to BE anything. You just have to be a good bull-shi**er.

Amen.

GBC 2 said...

I think Herb Revis stopped Caner from coming to his church last year.

However, he is a huge Mike Everson and his bunch of disciples and they are best of friends. Why I say this is, Caner is part of this bunch and so is his brother who is running Truett McConnell in GA which is a GA Baptist hotbed for GBC involvement, and we all know about the Georgia Baptist Convention and that back scratcher bunch.

Herb is part of them,so do not think he is "innocent"....he is just smart and silent in the backrooms.

Be careful. He will awe shuck ya to shame.

WishIhadknown said...

About protesting, you need to pray long and hard before doing that. Seek what the Holy Spirit would have you to do. The media loves to take things like this and twist it into something no one ever intended. First I think I would get the word out to the parents. Parents need to know who the church is bringing in to influence your youth. Next, gather as many concerned parents as you can and try meeting with the church officials and making your concerns known. In my heart of hearts I believe they do actually try to do what is right and true. Just remember what happened to WD. You may very well receive the same treatment.

Anonymous said...

"I'm not questioning Ergun Caner because he "misspoke."

The Clinton defense. Works every time.

Anonymous said...

You should know that Ergun has shown that this is all a set up by Calvinist and Muslims to discredit him.

See the proof
http://vimeo.com/17690435
http://vimeo.com/17690995

Anonymous said...

"You should know that Ergun has shown that this is all a set up by Calvinist and Muslims to discredit him."

LOL! Yeah, the Calvinists and Muslims made him tell those lies!

Anonymous said...

anon said "What in this world is wrong with Ergun Caner? Could it be that he truly is NOT a born-again believer?"

Ergun Caner is a pathological liar. To me it is very easy to see. What the Brunsons & Falwells of this world don't understand is that they are enabling him when they don't call him on the carpet for his behavior. He justifies his own behavior when he thinks people like Geisler approve. Is he born again? I don't know. I kind of lean towards the thought that being a pathological liar is a mental illness and many can't help it. Anyone who will sit in front of microphones and video cameras and lie has a major problem. And should NOT be in any kind of leadership position within the church.

I've never known a pathological liar to stop lying. He might be more careful, but he won't stop lying.

Anonymous said...

So it's completely alright that he misspoke?

How about his books where information has been completely refuted? It's not like he was typing directly into the book, he had plenty of time to confirm his stories and information.

By the way, you want to wipe away the sin of lying since "he was doing it for the Lord." Okay, I'm going to go rob some banks for local churches and missionaries that need the cash. Is that alright?

God would rather you do nothing for Him compared to sinning "in His name" any day.


He lied. He got caught. We live in the age that being a pastor is a business venture, not a ministry.

Or did you not realize the water was already boiling?

Anonymous said...

So in order to reach terrorist I must become one?

Anonymous said...

As for the Pastor's Conference itself, there's really only one or two of the featured speakers that has any true credibility left. They all just want to talk at each other and let our tithes pay their bills.

I'm surprised that they invited a woman to speak unless they've started putting the maid's bio on that page too.

I can't wait for my generation to get a hold of the reins. It'll be very fun to watch.

Anonymous said...

Calvinist James White made Caner lie! That is a good one. I read the email exchange between them about a debate and reading Caner was like reading a 15 year old. I could not believe how immature he was in responses to direct questions. He obfuscated, bragged, was snarky, etc. Anything but actually answer a question.

It was unbelievable. I kept asking myself how such a person could be a college prez. It only hurt Liberty's credibility in my eyes. But then I thought....does a professional paid Christian actually talk like this? Then I started listening to his "talks" and found out that he talks like that in person and people were lapping it up. That tells us the state of what is really plastic Christianity in our culture.

Anonymous said...

So in order to reach terrorist I must become one?

January 18, 2011 4:57 PM

Good one!

Oh, and to reach "liars" you must become one.

Anonymous said...

What have YOU accomplished...

Unveiling Islam nominated for the Gold Medallion Award!!!


VOICES BEHIND THE VEIL nominated as a finalist for ForeWard Magazine’s Book of the Year Voices Behind the Veil was selected as a finalist for ForeWard Magazine’s Book of the Year in the Religion Category for 2004!!!

MORE THAN A PROPHET nominated for Outreach Book Awards OUTREACH MAGAZINE named More Than a Prophet as a finalist for the Best Outreach Resource of 2003!

"God chooses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise..."

Who's fool are YOU??

Anonymous said...

What have YOU accomplished...

Unveiling Islam nominated for the Gold Medallion Award!!!


VOICES BEHIND THE VEIL nominated as a finalist for ForeWard Magazine’s Book of the Year Voices Behind the Veil was selected as a finalist for ForeWard Magazine’s Book of the Year in the Religion Category for 2004!!!

MORE THAN A PROPHET nominated for Outreach Book Awards OUTREACH MAGAZINE named More Than a Prophet as a finalist for the Best Outreach Resource of 2003!

"God chooses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise..."

Who's fool are YOU??

January 18, 2011 5:05 PM

All this took place before he was outed. I can tell you the publisher is quaking over not fact checking him cloer. Their reputation is on the line and they would be happy if this went away.

Although Caner was MORE careful in his books.

Let's see if they publish him again.

Stop following men and follow Christ.

Anonymous said...

Ergun Worshiper,

You might want to check out Unveiling Islam on Amazon and read the reviews.

Thanks for bringing the books up. I think I will review them and link to Jason Smathers page concerning Ergun's official documents that prove he lied. Thanks for the reminder!

Anonymous said...

Don't let them get you down Anonymous Ben. Just because you called people who post on this site anonymously cowards, and then started posting anonymously yourself doesn't make you a hypocrite. I know because Ergun Caner wrote it in his award winning book. And he is God's man and has a special anointing. Didn't Christ teach us that the end justify the means?

What happened to Mike Warnke was a shame. Had it happened today, he would have gotten away with it. He was a victim of timing. With a huge crowd of Anonymous Ben's in the pews, accountability and integrity are not to concerned about any longer.

Keep the CAPS, exclamation points, man-worship, culturally-based relativism, and shallow theology coming Anonymous Ben.

It's a good reminder of everything that is wrong with the mega-church.

Anonymous said...

Here is one of the Amazon reviews on Ergun Caner's "award winning book"


It simply boggles the mind that people like Ergun Caner are not charged with fraud.

That a man can base his entire career on a cold-blooded lie, and no one holds him accountable truly amazes me.

Ergun Caner, has WAS NEVER a Muslim

Pictures speak louder than a thousand words

Kindly view these two videos for yourself

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRDyOaCJ3t0

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hevXbVrEsvc

He claims to be a devout former Muslim who turned to Christianity, and yet on his television show where he melodramatically recounts his life, - he makes the most jaw-droppingly ludicrousc mistakes with regards to Islam. Things that quite literally, ALMOST EVERY SINGLE 10 YEAR OLD MUSLIM CHILD on the planet knows. He confidently recites the most basic of verses from the Quran, without realizing he is reciting completely different things. He invents his own words and phrases in an attempt to give them an arabic flare. He confuses even the most basic and rudimentary facets of Islam which even the most casual of muslim children would know

It truly truly sickens me the level of demonization against Muslims that the west allows. Hate-propoganda against Muslims has become the last acceptable taboo in western society. That a man who was never a Muslim, can come on television, lie through his teeth so blatantly, and then write a novel on Islam pretending to be an expert, and uses it as a platform to spread more lies and vilification ..... it truly truly boggles the mind

I really don't know how you can call yourself a Christian Mr Ergun (or whatever your real birth name is). Is this the way to win others to Christ? By faking to be an ex-muslim (in such a laughably transparent way that even a muslim child would spot it), and then using that platform to lie through your teeth?

I advise everyone who reads this review to check out the links to the two videos I shared and judge for yourself.

Anonymous said...

Caner does not care but he set back Christian witness to Muslims big time. For Caner, it was about fame and money.

That is why we tell the world, as Christians, that Caner is a fraud.

Anonymous said...

It's all about the $. Deep down you know it and I know it. People lap up the Caner type junk. I bet the "offerings" are way up when the gifted storytellers speak. Churches are businesses and good businessmen give their customers what they want. Right?

Anonymous said...

It's all about the $. Deep down you know it and I know it. People lap up the Caner type junk. I bet the "offerings" are way up when the gifted storytellers speak. Churches are businesses and good businessmen give their customers what they want. Right?

January 18, 2011 6:24 PM

Entertainment and a social life.

Anonymous said...

It's all about the $. Deep down you know it and I know it.
-
There are a few other things going on beside the money, but money is the root of evil. For example, controlling the mind by making them docile ready to accept control or instruction with out thinking. A people could be brought to a national identity that way. Control is much easy with the mind releasing drugs into the body with out thinking. Brunson a pulpit is so controlled it is not funny. They even having them bring a known liar to speak to children. See how your minds are being broken. Go meth.

Anonymous said...

YOU ever heard of Matthew 18?

Why don't YOU call Ergun?

I just spoke to him recently....but then it is more FUN to HATE...RIGHT???

He has a different story than what is listed on this gossip rag...I am not sure YOU are interested....YOU have never really been interested in the TRUTH!!

WishIhadknown said...

Actually, I am very interested in the truth so why don't you give it?
The only person expressing hate here is you.

Anonymous said...

Jason Smathers did the legwork and the research, basing his questions solely on Caner's own statements in sermons and his printed works compared to primary sources (legal documents, high school yearbooks, newspaper articles, etc.) which in a court of law is indisputable.

Had he been a politician, his butt would be nailed to not one, but several walls.

Since he's a pastor, he's defended by blind sycophants who all want to sit as close to that table to catch the crumbs of power that fall.

Ergun Caner is a business. He is the central figure in the cash cow of ignorant Christians sucked in by flashy sermons and surface-credible books. There's a lot of money to be made in the post 9/11 world because though we call fear a sin, they have found it to be the quintessential tool in making the sheep empty their wallets and open their checkbooks.

All you Caner defenders, forget James White and check out Jason Smathers evidence. I want you to explain his statements about being barely able to speak English yet he's in the drama club in high school. What Jihadist group did he spend his summers with in Ohio? If he's so knowledgeable about terrorists and their activities, why has the FBI largely ignored him, especially after 9/11?

Being a pastor in the SBC is either about ministry or business...

It's patently obvious which pastors fall into which categories.

WishIhadknown said...

What's a sycophant?

Anonymous said...

Matthew 18???? He doesn't care. He has not answered his lies or misspeaking. He has not set the record straight on when he came to America or the other man lies.

Thy Peace said...

What's a sycophant?

Answer

WishIhadknown said...

Thanks. It's great to learn from the people here.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

YOU ever heard of Matthew 18?

Why don't YOU call Ergun?

I just spoke to him recently....but then it is more FUN to HATE...RIGHT???

He has a different story than what is listed on this gossip rag...I am not sure YOU are interested....YOU have never really been interested in the TRUTH!!

January 18, 2011 9:11 PM

==================================


I am really truly interested in hearing the truth and I am someone who knows him personally. Used to be proud to know him, now I am ashamed.

So since you talked to him recently and have knowledge of a different story, why don't you enlighten us. Better yet, why don't you get Ergun to enlighten us all to the truth. He is getting ready to speak at FBC Jax, why not tell Ergun to put an end to all of this by setting the record straight once and for all.

You see, that is all any of us want. We want him to admit the truth and apologize for the lying. If what he has said in his books and sermons is actually the truth, then he should have no issues disputing those facts pointed out by "basement bloggers" and have something to back his claims up.

If he can prove to us that the information provide by others are lies and he has in fact been telling the truth the whole time, I for one will apologize to him personally and publically if needed. In fact, I believe most of us here would be willing to do the same.

Anonymous said...

"
"YOU ever heard of Matthew 18?"

Nice dodge. Should we take it to Thomas Road Baptist Church where his Liberty boss is pastor? YOu think they will put us on the Sunday Morning schedule?

Matt 18 is not for celebrity Christians. Nice try. Every celebrity fake has used this passage to get by with whatever they want. They actually blame others for using when they hide behind secretaries.

So, Matt 18 is used to excuse lying, perversion and everything else.

You might want to study it. It says "offense against YOU". Caner is a public person who has snowed thousands. This is a public scandal in Christendom. It is a duty to warn others of wolves and hirlings.

Anonymous said...

"He has a different story than what is listed on this gossip rag...I am not sure YOU are interested....YOU have never really been interested in the TRUTH!!"

Question is, "which story". He has had many variations. Can you tell us which one is true? Actually Smather's leg work with official documents told us which ones were blatent lies.

Seriously, the bottomline is that you think it is perfectly normal for teachers of the Word to lie. Says a lot about you.

Grace Need Not Count said...

PICKETT!
PICKETT!
PICKETT!
PICKETT!
PICKETT!
PICKETT!
PICKETT!
PICKETT!

Anonymous said...

B-O-R-I-N-G.

Dr Ergun Caner satire said...

Dear Anon 9:11PM,

Before I ever made any parody videos pointing out the problems, I emailed Ergun Caner privately. I was sincere and respectful. I asked him about his contradicting statements. I sent the email to both his erguncaner.com email address and his email address at Liberty.

He never responded.

Just last month, I emailed his pastor, Jonathan Falwell about this. Again I was very respectful. I sent the email twice.

He never responded.

Even if you were kind enough to give me his phone number, why would he respond any differently to me on the phone? It is hard to speak to a brother in private if they keep slamming the door shut.

I'd be happy to post the emails I sent if you'd like to see if I was really respectful or not. And as Anon 11:36PM said, we would love for him to come out and set the record straight. I for one would remove all my videos for good if he would just deal with the evidence splashed all over the web.

Dr Who said...

DAY 3 and still waiting for that one video or text where he repented or apologized and told the truth.

Yawn....just as I suspected, there was not and has not been one!

This Again, "I apologize you had to be bothered with these skirmishes"
is the only apology I have seen but even that was done in jest concerning his investigation at Liberty to SOR Faculty - which has no ashamness to it just more cover ups.

I really am trying to find that apology and or something where he admitted he was a liar. Oh well, guess I will be out here on this Equalizer path for awhile.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:45,

You described church as "entertainment and a social life." I think that is exactly what it is.

I used to sit in church on Sunday mornings and try to figure it all out. I knew Christians were supposed to be doing good deeds. But I thought, here we all sit watching people perform on a stage and listening to a lecture. And if you listen to the same preacher year after year, you hear his speech patterns, favorite phrases, etc. over and over and over. You start to wonder what you are doing there AND if it's doing anybody any good of any kind. AND what it could possibly have to do with Christianity.

So I think you are correct. You go there to talk with your friends and watch a show. Then you go home and do it all over again the next week.

Anonymous said...

TO Lumpkins, Guthrie, Rodgers, _______, __________, and all Canerites.

Dr. Ergun Caner Satire, contacted Ergun and Falwell Jr. and no response was issued.

This debate about Ergun's lies would cease if he would clear it up publicly--AND he has NOT.

He should be removed from public speaking until he repents. Jerry Vines and those who asked him to speak at the conference are only making things worse.

Anonymous said...

You could post a dozen of these videos and audio of Caner saying he came in 1978 as a teenager...could he please set this one straight for all of us?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e35nJ6lPRNQ

If anyone goes to the conference maybe they could interview Ergun and get the truth?

Anonymous said...

They know if they wait long enough...it will go away.

William Thornton said...

I see that EC is on the program for the Georgia Evangelism Conference in February.

I'm somewhat ambivalent about it. His credibility was severely damaged IMO, though apparently not sufficiently for our state to revoke an invitation.

WishIhadknown said...

EC will no doubt play the persecution card and declare how he has risen above the low life blogger who sought to do him harm. For what the enemy meant for evil God has turned to good.

Dr Who said...

WOW! Thanks William Thornton.

Yes he is.... Attached is the link below and the schedule.

http://www.gabaptist.org/eventDetails.aspx?parentnavigationid=7473&theparentnavigationid=4795&&vieweventguid=3ebad5b6-3620-417d-9ced-53af901b5a17

Now I think I will call the only one in GA that will stand against this junk. The man who the GBC wrote the blogging resolution against.

I hope he will be making a call to the GBC and will NOT take this lightly.

I almost guarantee a response as he had fought the GBC for years and severely damaged the Georgia Baptist Convention's reputation all over the country.

Enough is enough.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

William and Dr. Who - not only is he speaking, but he has a prime slot. I assume that the evening of the last night is a prime spot.

As I said, he's back, he's bad, and he's bustin' loose.

Anonymous said...

NEVER FORGET

9.11.01

NEVER AGAIN

Anonymous said...

LEAVE HIM ALONE!!

I came to Christ thru his preaching, he is funny, he is honest, he is bold, he is captivating....Everthing that YOU are not.

PLEASE stop prosecuting him for his past.

It is over....David had a past
Peter had a past
Moses had a past
Jonah had a past

AND SO DO YOU!!!!!

NEWS FLASH.....THIS IS 2010!!!

Move on to something important like...Mac going on vacation too much and Ed Young riding first class to Preach the Gospel...

YOU NEED TO GET A LIFE!!!!

Anonymous said...

NEWS FLASH.....THIS IS 2010!!!

Move on to something important like...Mac going on vacation too much and Ed Young riding first class to Preach the Gospel...

YOU NEED TO GET A LIFE!!!!

January 19, 2011 8:07 PM

===============================

NEWS FLASS ANON 8:07 . . .THE YEAR IS 2011! :>)

Dr Who said...

ANON 8:07
u say;

"PLEASE stop prosecuting him for his past."

It is simple.

We will stop when he apologizes for his past and tells the truth that others already know to be "lies".

A liar does NOT deserve to be speaking to youth or anyone else until he has a repentance spirit.

This is a BIBLICAL based simple request, and humanly expected.

And I have sent the GA blogger an email with this site and the GBC conference site concerning Ergun attached.

Just waiting for his response.

Dr Ergun Caner satire said...

Anon 8:07 - As it has been pointed out to you already, it is actually not 2010 anymore. But then again, you claim Ergun Caner is honest, so maybe it is 2010 on your planet.

Listen Ma'am, why don't you ask your Pastor to view the "edited videos" himself, and then challenge him to come here, post with his real name, and defend Ergun Caner like you do. You think he would? Of course not.

This is not "in the past". That liar stands, defiant, to this very day. And stands in pulpits no less.

WishIhadknown said...

He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him! I'll chase him round the Moons of Nibia, and round the Antares Maelstrom, and round perdition's flames before I give him up!

Anonymous said...

Last days, end of days are upon us. Good will be evil, evil will be good. Get use to it.

Anonymous said...

Judas followed Jesus around for three years. He visited, witnessed for the Lord, probably baptised some people...but while he was part of the team he was LOST. We should all learn that just because one is on the team and shows up at church doesn't mean anything anymore. Be a fruit inspector and watch not only what they do, but everything that they say on or off the campus.

Anonymous FBCJax Insider said...

It is being reported that FBC Jax's high school youth group pastor, Rev. Eppling, is leaving.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
LEAVE HIM ALONE!!

I came to Christ thru his preaching, he is funny, he is honest, he is bold, he is captivating....Everthing that YOU are not.

PLEASE stop prosecuting him for his past.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

So like, was the Holy Spirit involved with your decision? Or was it just some persuasive talker that prompted your decision?

This business of Ergun Caner....... it causes HIS name to stink. That maam/sir, is serious.

IT ain't about poor Ergun. It is about HIS name and HIS reputation, HIS word and majesty. Ergun is blowing stink all over the place with unrepentant lying.

These SBC brotherhood-lums who shield him are no better, they facilitate the stench.

Shame on Brunson for fomenting this kind of behaviour and condoning this breach of integrity in a pulpit. Tacit approval is still approval.

If Brunson were to rebuke him, he might accidentally bump the search light on his actions against one of his members. YOu know, that trespass order and public name calling he used on Tom. I think Macky will be silent on this and other embarassing things.
Cowardice in cuff links.

Thy Peace said...

Maybe Mac Brunson and Ergun Caner can now publish the updated version of their book:

Google Books > Why Churches Die: Diagnosing Lethal Poisons in the Body of Christ [2005] By Mac Brunson, Ergun Caner

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
FBC Jax Parent said...

It is being reported that FBC Jax's high school youth group pastor, Rev. Eppling, is leaving.

January 19, 2011 11:01 PM

I hate to hear this. Rev Eppling is a good man, and has a servant's heart for our young people. We love you Rev Eppling. We'll be praying for you and your family.

Anonymous said...

"So like, was the Holy Spirit involved with your decision? Or was it just some persuasive talker that prompted your decision?"

Exactly. The problem could be this person thinks what Caner is and does, represents what it means to be a follower of Christ. That is a follower of man or this person would have given Christ the credit.

faith_to_move said...

So glad to have Caner back on the scene!

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:55pm: Your quote was from Khan in Star Trek - the Movie...right?

Anonymous said...

"Get on this Gospel Train!!!

January 16, 2011 7:32 AM

Appears our youth director wanted to get off the Gospel Train @ FBCJ . . .Smart man, but question is was he politely asked to move on or was it his choice.
Members will never know the real truth. There will be gooey words about him leaving - been there, heard it before.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Word is that he is heading to Truett-McConnell College and has taken a position there, where Ergun's brother Emir is the president.

Anonymous said...

The folks at FBC JAX should have a huge problem that the unrepenant, Ergun Caner, is going to speak at their church.

If you are a member of FBC Jax, do you have a problem with Ergun speaking to the youth? He has told many of the same lies over and over and over again and has not repented nor has he set the record straight.


For those who are crying about moving on and forgiving, YES--if he repents.

Anonymous said...

the question is was he politely asked to move on or was it his choice.

his hand was probally too far in the cookie jar. It will be interesting to see who his replacement is. Maby it will be a caner lieutenant.

Anonymous said...

"NEWS FLASH.....THIS IS 2010!!!"

Posted on January 19,2011

You my friend are a MORON!!!

Anonymous said...

"YOU NEED TO GET A LIFE!!!!"

YOU NEED TO GET A CALENDER!!!

Sweet Tea Drinker said...

......" It will be interesting to see who his replacement is. Maby it will be a caner lieutenant. "

January 20, 2011 12:13 PM

Or Ergun Caner himself ?? Hmmmm. Chris Eppling is given a position at T-M College, Ergun's home is for sale, maybe they're bringing Ergun to speak to the Youth as sort of a "dry run" to see how well he'll be received.

This smacks of SBC cronyism. Everybody knows the former FBC Pastor, Jerry Vines, and the current FBC Pastor, Mac Brunson are heavily vested in EC. Their reputations are on the line.

Dr Who said...

This is a partial text from Doug that I received today.

.......................
Just like Parents are responsible for their kids and actions thereafter,

The leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention should be held responsible for the actions of those who are members. It is the leadership that accepts this type of behavior and therefore should hold the burden for allowing all these men who are exposed to continue with their fake ministries and shows.

Until the membership - and as a whole group - within the Baptist denomination demands better choices and hold these men accountable with actions in accordance to and within Matthew 18 and 1st Timothy 5: wich says:

19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

.....then the members of this Baptist faith are being lead by shepard's who are truly tares, wolves, and Pharisees.

The leaders of this denomination and of all these State Conventions are the bearers of answering to Christ one day and now have the bloody hands for allowing all these men to continue deceiving and destroying Christ word and testimony for all those who choose to follow him and for those who desire to worship him.

I choose to Follow Christ, Not Man.

The SBC, GBC ,and all other state convention leadership should prayerfully consider whether or not they are truly Christ focused vs MAN focused because they are losing the battle whether they want to believe it or not, and I am not talking about just money.

Furthermore, where I live the Georgia Baptist Convention has become the resting ground for many of the corrupt now in the ministry and is in the midst of a major battle for power looming against the current leadership - both the silent and exposed - for decision which are detrimental to the testimony of Christ. They have lost their focus and have seeded the secular concepts into the Christian faith.

....................

Anonymous said...

"YOU NEED TO GET A LIFE!!!!"
can you help me, if you can I will provide my phone #.

Anonymous said...

Peter Lumpkins has a new post about the conference, but he will not allow you to ask any hard questions about Ergun Caner.

So much for seekers of truth.

Try posting these questions on his site:

It is not legalistic to ask Ergun to come clean and set the record straight on his lies.

When did he come to America? 1978, 1979, 1969, 1970???

Who and when did he debate in 13 countries and 35 states?

Did he watch Dukes of Hazard in Turkey?

How was he trained in Jihad?

Did he grow up in Turkey, near the Turkish-Iraqi border?

Man!!! just look at the Ergun file
http://babyloniansquirrel.blogspot.com/2010/05/caner-file.html

What are these high school student to think?

IF Ergun would have repented and set the record straight we wouldn't be talking about him.

Dr Who said...

This also was from Doug's email to me;

"Baptist, especially the Georgia Baptist Convention and all of Robert White, Mike Everson, Gerald Harris, Tony Dickerson, Wayne Robertson, Hamrick, Evers, .. et al, disciples who are out of control and allow many out of control men to speak to Georgians, need to heed some insight from their own bible concerning disciplining all those who need disciplining ( including Everson, Caner, and the likes)

I think of this verse concerning the issues now within the Baptist denomination;

"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24)
and "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)

The Baptist are in need of correcting those that are an ABOMINATION to Christ Kingdom!

I really wonder why they stand for those who need correcting vs standing against those of us who demand transparency and biblical truths.

I am praying for discernment concerning these issue and others that are now overwhelming reality for us within the Christian community and will do as GOD direct me in the future. It is not for us to correct these men, it is only something GOD can change. But we must be willing vessels, in a Christ like way and manner, to expose whatever needs to be exposed so that others can make their own choices. I have made mine which is to stay as far away from these men as I know.

Their messages are now falling on deaf ears and will continue to do so as long as there is no accountability from the leadership and by the leadership within the Baptist denomination.

..............................

Anonymous said...

'I really wonder why they stand for those who need correcting vs standing against those of us who demand transparency and biblical truths. "

It is quite simple. For the last 30 years, the focus in the SBC has been on obeying human authority in the Body instead of on the priesthood of believer and soul competency previously taught.

We have an entire generation of people who have been brainwashed into believing there really is human authority in the Body of Christ. The scriptural teaching of
'not so among you' or "the greatest among you are the lowliest servants of all" is gone. Mere humans have sought to replace the Holy Spirit.

Mac was taught to think this way by his mentors. As were many other paid professional Christians in the SBC.

This only results in people not studying on their own and following man instead of Christ. Their very maturity in Christ is stunted by men who elevate themselves instead of Christ.

The bottomline is that you will not stand before the Lord and tell Him that Mac taught you something so it must be right. You, alone, are responsible for what you believe and what you do and who you support.

Katie said...

How hard is it to offer a sincere apology, spend some time in repentence, and then move on?

Peter did it.

Paul was mean spirited Pharisee before he came to Christ. Yet later he had to rebuke Peter.

We've all had to take stock of our life especially when wickedness is laid bare to the world.

It would be wrong not to accept him back into the fellowship, but as it is, and scripturally supported, we cannot.

It's not about forgiveness. I feel certain the great majority of us are more than willing to forgive. All he has to do is repent and ask our forgiveness.

Pride goes before destruction...

blessedpb said...

I'm so late to this forum but I must admit that I just heard the almost unbelievable news of the Ergun Caner controversy. I've been reading about it and am so grieved to hear that this man that I so enjoyed hearing on the John
Ankerberg Show was a fraud. Then more grieved still that the responsible members of the Body of Christ cannot discern the difference between forgiving a fallible brother from applying the necessary discipline of removal from leadership responsibilities of that brother.
Simon the magician was quite gifted and apparently impressed no small number of followers but he was rebuked for wanting to have the ability to give the Holy Spirit thru laying of hands. There is a right way and wrong way of spreading the gospel and as the world watches us we need to keep our vessels (esp those that have the church sanction) pure, so as not to give the enemies of the Lord occasion to blaspheme him.
Truly, it is a sad time for the church as the world watches us stumble in darkness and Satan snickers with glee. I hope this lack of discernment is not as pervasive as it seems to be.