Jerry Vines was my pastor for about 16 years at FBC Jacksonville. My family and I have fond memories of those days sitting under the bible teaching of Jerry Vines and Homer Lindsay. We still remember the night Vines and his wife came to share a private dinner with us and our extended family back around 1999 or 2000.Sunday morning at the 2011 FBC Jax Pastor's Conference, Vines delivered a sermon entitled "Come Before Winter" from 2 Tim 4. A wonderful sermon about the importance of acting now, today, to do things that need to be done - including apologizing to people you are to love, and doing things today for God that you know you should do. He demonstrates he really is a heart preacher as he speaks gently and lovingly to the Christian's heart.
Some personal thoughts on Vines:
- Vines still is, and always has been a happy preacher, comfortable in the pulpit. In the pulpit he delivers his Bible message clearly and plainly, contented to allow the Holy Spirit to fit the truths to the listeners. So many preachers today are showmen who are over-bearing as they are pre-occupied with playing the role of the Holy Spirit. Not Vines.
- Vines come across as a humble man when he preaches. He isn't preaching about himself or his family incessantly. He just sticks to the Bible, doesn't try to impress with too much Greek or history or trivia. Just Bible mostly, with relevant stories of application mixed with some humor. He never takes himself too seriously.
- Vines is not too big to say he is sorry. He stressed the importance in this sermon of apologizing to people you love before it is too late. He has some great words of wisdom for family members, parents, children, church members. In this sermon he expressed humility and love to the people of FBC Jax in a very sincere way, apologizing to anyone that he may have hurt or may have been cruel to when he was pastor here. And let me say, I know this is not just show. I know of Vines' willingness in being able to take the first step and deliver mercy and grace and love, even to someone who he feels has wronged HIM. "A gentle word turns away wrath", Proverbs 15:1. I have great love and respect for Vines in this regard.
- He isn't a whiner. So many of the mega church pastors today of the next generation are obsessed with criticism, or pointing out how rough it is to be a pastor. They want everyone to know "it ain't easy being me". This is not Vines. Vines never, ever took shots at his critics from the pulpit. Make no mistake, he had as many critics in his days at FBC Jax as any of the mega church pastors do today.
- There is an intangible aspect of preaching that is hard to put a finger on, as to why some preachers connect with their congregations allowing their messages to inspire their church members while other preachers' sermons just fall flat. Vines said it best when he described what is "heart" and "annointed" preaching in the last two chapters of his 1986 book on sermon delivery. Vines' and Lindsay's sermons were always from the heart, motivated not by trying to coerce people to agree with them or to twist people's arms to do what the pastor wants them to do - but rather motivated out of genuine love for Christians and for Christ and Christ's mission. It was annointed preaching, in that they preached the Bible and the sermons spoke to the young and old alike, the saved and unsaved, the mature Christan and the new convert. Thank God for heart and annointed preaching, which seems to be in short supply in these days of mega celebrity preachers.
I've been tough on Vines over the past few years - but I still have great respect for him and have fond memories of our time at FBC Jax when he was our pastor. I am grateful for his preaching ministry at FBC Jax as we raised our family there until late 2008.
Great sermon, recommend that Watchdog readers watch it at the FBC Jax website.
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Other related Watchdog posts:
"Heart and Annointed Preaching" - November 21, 2008
"Let Me Show You How We Grew a Church, Boys" - February 9th, 2009
72 comments:
Really? I was there and was disappointed. He preached the same exact sermon at North Jax Baptist year before last during the conference time. And to say he doesn't like theatrics cracks me up as well. SEBTS professors use his sermons as illustrations on how NOT to preach. For example, using sound effects of helicopters for emphasis. And I was also there for his final sermon at FBC Jax during the pastor's conference. The whole pass the torch spectacle was just that--a spectacle, which ended in him walking out of the auditorium singing. My spouse and I just sat there and shook our heads. Hate to say it but after HL passed the church went downhill with Vines.
Yes, I do recall helicopter sounds in a sermon in the 1990s. I'm surprised to hear that now at SEBTS use his sermons as illustratiosn on how NOT to preach. That is probably an overstatement on your part. Yes, the torch thing was a show.
But the typical Vines sermon his whole life was a guy standing calmly behind a podium explaining things from the Bible so that people could understand them.
He communicated in love and compassion, and he let the Holy Spirit do the convincing. He didn't brow beat people to give money to this or that. If there were a special project he was wanting his church members to give to, he did it consistently and lovingly and never, ever brow beat or guilted people into giving.
This message was a joke, it didn't feed me, it didn't impress me, it didn't help me, it didn't minister to me....
Mac, when he preaches, brings home the Gospel Bacon.
He screams real good and lets us know he means business.
If it doesn't step on your toes, it ain't preaching!
This stuff is fluff....I need some meat and potatoes not this Happy Meal!
"Mac, when he preaches, brings home the Gospel Bacon."
ANOTHER TROLL!!!
ANOTHER TROLL!!!
Exactly
Who can hear the quiet voice of the Holy Spirit with Mac constantly screaming and berating you.
Some people prefer to live in a state of guilt and fear I suppose.
"This message was a joke, it didn't feed me, it didn't impress me, it didn't help me, it didn't minister to me...."
Uses the word "me" four times in once sentence. It's all about me.
Unfortunately, that is the attitude of today's pew sitter.
He's not there to praise God, but to see what's in it for me.
Not an overstatement at all. My husband is a grad from 07 and two profs used him as an example of how not to preach.
I have very fond memories of Pastor Vines also. I was very disappointed when he left, and disappointed again when I realized they had removed his sermons from the FBCJax website. His journey through the Bible series was excellent!
Folks, If they are not exposting, it is not worth your time to bother to sit there. Problem is, expositing takes a ton of time to prepare and uses no oratorical skills. Most preachers are not capabale so you end up with lots of fluff, sound effects, visuals, etc, to stir emotion.
"1 And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power. " 1 Corin 2
The problem with Vines is that he has supported much evil from Gilyard to Caner. He is a player in the SBC.
Many professors have no business teaching how to preach because they were not good at it themselves. There is a reason they are professors. Anyone using Vines as an example of how not to preach has no clue. Vines has always been a wonderful expositor of God's Word. He is a great preaching example.
Hearing that the seminary professors use Vines as an example of how not to preach reminds me of Spurgeon being horrified by Dwight L. Moody’s preaching. (If you don’t know who I am writing about may I suggest a Google search.)
"This message was a joke, it didn't feed me, it didn't impress me, it didn't help me, it didn't minister to me...."
A product of the "ME" generation.
“He is a player in the SBC.”
No duh. The political nature of the SBC and lack of even the simplest generally accepted standards of ethical behavior makes Congress look like a bunch of school kids. But what would we expect, even in its origination the SBC could not get it right.
Expository Preaching is WAY overrated!!!
Did Jesus preach expository messages?????
Did Paul???
NO!!!!!
We NEED messages like....
How to overcome Worry
How to manage our Money
How to defeat Temptation
Not some 30 week series on 2 Kings!!!!
WHAT 'YOU' SAY IS BIBLICAL (expository preaching) IS IN FACT A SOURCE OF PRIDE AND FEEDS YOUR INNER PHARISEE
Pulpits and podiums, stages and steeples, mood music and "ministers"...
The NT says about the "church":
-- neither here nor there but in spirit and truth
-- true worship is to be transformed by the renewing of our minds
-- meet together to SHARE spiritual gifts, to build EACH OTHER up
The Christian life is a life; a relationship with God and then with his people. Even when only "two or three" gather, Jesus is there. We do turn this into a religion when we put up fancy buildings and focus on "the sanctuary" with its altar and pulpit.
Some have been freed from the "tithe" but not yet from the "religion". It doesn't matter how well someone speaks, or even how well they teach; the important thing is that we never limit teaching to one person all the time. We need to free up ALL the gifts of the Spirit to function when and where that Spirit moves. The typical "order of worship" is stifling and deadening.
WD: Even you can be fooled.
Expository Preaching is WAY overrated!!!
Did Jesus preach expository messages?????
Did Paul???
NO!!!!!
We NEED messages like....
How to overcome Worry
How to manage our Money
How to defeat Temptation
Not some 30 week series on 2 Kings!!!!
WHAT 'YOU' SAY IS BIBLICAL (expository preaching) IS IN FACT A SOURCE OF PRIDE AND FEEDS YOUR INNER PHARISEE
Don't Feed The Troll!!!
He's just trying to get a rise out of you.
Personally I thought Vines' sermon was the weakest of the conference. It was a terrible usage of scripture, I think it was all proof text and honestly trite.
I am sure Vines is a good man, I am not doubting his calling nor his authenticity - but wow, that was one weak sermon in my opinion!
The Troll may be trying to get a rise out of us but the fact is the Troll this time is spot on. Expository preaching is not in the Bible. Jesus preached "felt need" sermons. So, lets keep it honest and real and don't allow our own prejudices to become Biblical mandates.
Actually, "Come Before Winter" was an old sermon back when HL was preaching (late 80s?)...
youtube link...
watch?v=BMb7P73D8w8
Sure, Vines' sermon at PC didn't contain any great theological insights or blurbs to be tweeted by the parrots. It was just Vines talking to his former church and giving some good advice. He preached those kinds of sermons every once in a while, certainly they were the exception.
It is just a pleasure to see a guy in the pulpit not full of himself, not angry, and intent on sharing some helpful insights from scripture and his experience.
To hear that guys at SEBTS are knocking Vines, not surprising.
What sells now are guys beating people up over the tithe, references to Marduke the Moon God, and complaining about recalcitrant church members who aren't serving or giving enough.
I hate Mac's preaching...
I hate Vine's preaching..
I hate Ed Young..Ergun Caner..Perry Noble...
Hey Folks...Aren't you tired of all of this????
This "Roger Ebert" 2 Thumbs up or down on this Sunday's message....is all of this blogging stuff in the Bible?
Didn't think so........
"The Troll may be trying to get a rise out of us but the fact is the Troll this time is spot on."
The troll wouldn't know spot on if it hit him between the eyes at 100 mph.
The troll is a cheerleader for Mac who likes to twist scripture to force it to support whatever Mac is trying to peddle that day.
He wouldn't know how to interpret scripture in context on a dare.
Whatever Mac says is Gospel.
No discernment required.
Actually its frowned upon.
"Expository preaching is not in the Bible."
Expository preaching (also referred to as systematic exposition) is a form of preaching that throws light upon the meaning of a particular text or passage of Scripture.
So Jesus never threw light upon the meaning of a particular text or passage of Scripture?
I think Christ might disagree with you.
"Jesus preached "felt need" sermons."
Oh, brother.
Cry me a river, liberal.
"So, lets keep it honest and real and don't allow our own prejudices to become Biblical mandates."
In my experience, anyone who says they want to "keep it real" is usually doing the opposite.
In this case, its a straw man argument.
I hate Mac's preaching...
I hate Vine's preaching..
I hate Ed Young..Ergun Caner..Perry Noble...
Hey Folks...Aren't you tired of all of this????
This "Roger Ebert" 2 Thumbs up or down on this Sunday's message....is all of this blogging stuff in the Bible?
Didn't think so........
Personally (since you asked), I'm tired of a troll posting idiotic emotion-based and immature comments that worship men with no knowledge of Biblical precedent or protocol.
Your thinking (or lack thereof) is so bad that's its laughable.
Here's an example:
Your blogging reference has at least three logic flaws.
1) The Bible was complete 2000 years before it began so you wouldn't expect it to be mentioned in the Bible
2) Just because something is not mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean that we don't use it - computers for example
3) You are posting on a Blog! If it's unbiblical, why are you participating?
Sheesh the lack of thinking here is
embarrassing.
Grow up dude.
I have heard Jerry Vines preach about 10 times in my life, maybe a few more. I have always enjoyed his preaching and thought that he said some convicting, interesting and worthwhile things.
I am very pleased to have cast my vote for him as SBC President in San Antonio in 1988 (I believe) and not for Richard Jackson. That was a great victory in the CR. That was the closest election, I believe. The others were settled by several percentage points. I think that Vines won by 600 or so.
Thanks Dog for the post. A really great sermon with a lot of meaning and assurances. Love the music too. I forget what great music is like.
Proves the old adage, those who can do those who can’t teach.
I think Anon Troll doesn't believe anything he's saying. I think he's playing Devil's Advocate to provoke conversation.
Any Mouse:
You said:"That was a great victory in the CR."
Do you really believe the CR was successful?
I really do not see many successes that came from the CR.
I see a littered battlefield.
For any professor to say that Vines doesn't know how to preach, reveals that those professors don't know how to profess. Any man who is teaching in a seminary that really believes that, has no business teaching in a seminary.
Every preacher has a down day. Yet to attack Vines preaching sounds more personal to me than academic.
If one were being academic about it, they could easily say "expository preaching" is the wrong way to go, which would put their academic position in oppostion to Vines. However to say, "Don't preach like Vines" seems more aimed at the man, than the approach.
Without discussion or debate, Vines has always made every attempt to "preach the word" as clearly printed, and plainly stated, and not through some pollyanna, touchy, feely, man-made boloneology.
No doubt there have been times when he may not have done a good job of it, but it has always been his purpose to expose what the Word of God says. - Anything else is not Biblical preaching.
W.A. Criswell said once after listening to some smileyfaced, sissy of a preacher, preach a sissy of a sermon with a catchy little poem, three feel good points, and a cloud of dust, that he felt like asking the man his maiden name. When any man gets too far away from expository preaching, he'll either turn into a cross between Dr. Phil and Joel Osteen, or he'll wind up a smiley faced sissy that may be able to draw a crowd, but has no real power in the pulpit.
oh - to the "littered battlefield"
The famous quote of Adrian Rogers fits here.
- "We don't have to come together
The Southern Baptist Convention doesn't have to survive.
I do not have to pastor Bellevue Baptist Church; I don't even have to live - but the Word of God WILL NOT be compromised."
"It is better to be divided by the truth, than united in a lie."
thank u feb 8th 3:20. Its been going on for several topics now, I don't know why people can't see that.
Nothing wrong with Anger!
God got angry!
Jesus got angry!
Moses got angry!
Peter got angry!
So if Mac pitches a hissy fit in the pulpit he is really following pretty good company!
I am angry at how angry YOU are about Mac's anger.
DFTT!
The Village Idiot is back.
Thanks WD for this post. Vines is by far one of the greatest preachers of our day.
The helicopter sound effects was from his 1999 PC sermon entitled "Rescued".
If SEBTS is using Vines sermons as illustrations as how not to preach. My goodness, no wonder our pulpits are in the shape they are in!
I know he is not your favorite, but SWBTS and Paige Patterson have Vines in to lead an entire week on expositional preaching.
Does Vines make mistakes? Has he been guilty of poor decisions? Sure, he is after all human, and the difference with Vines and many other preachers is that Vines knows he is human.
Thanks again WD for this post and for placing the link to his message on this post.
Kyle
Wow, apparently to love Mac is to hate Vines. It's pretty obvious the pro-macs are out in full force on this topic. I'll never understand Vines support of Gilyard and quite frankly can't think of many things more disapointing. BUT (let me tell you one thing) there is NO comparison in their preaching. Vines can preach circles around Mac and does so in a gracious, humble way.
I am angry at how angry YOU are about Mac's anger.
It is sad to see your church being destroyed by a man who should be doing something else besides preaching!
"Vines come across as a humble man when he preaches."
ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? HUMBLE AS DONALD TRUMP!
"Vines is not too big to say he is sorry."
DID HE APOLOGIZE ABOUT GILYARD?
'He isn't a whiner'
OH REALLY??? HAVE YOU TALKED TO HIS EX-STAFF?
"It was annointed preaching"
"YOU" WANT TO HEAR GOOD PREACHING? SHOW UP THIS SUNDAY MORNING BROTHER!
WHAT A JOKE!!
I never said SEBTS profs tell students not to preach like Vines based on expository preaching. It's the theatrics that are a joke. And his final sermon at the PC a few years back was a perfect example. That whole carry the torch thing made me ill. It's not about the man, people, it's about Jesus Christ. I'm not a huge fan of Mac either, so don't think I am a troll or anything. I just think it's funny to use Vines as an example of a preacher who doesn't use theatrics and who isn't into the whole mega church thing when he clearly is. If you want to harp on mega church pastors all the time then you really need to lump him in with the bunch.
I have heard Jerry Vines several times and I always profited from his sermons. I have also profited from Mac Brunson sermons, mostly that were preached on Sunday evenings and Wednesday evenings. The only problem I had with Mac was with the theatrics and manipulation, guilt and brow beating and this seemed to have occurred on most Sunday mornings.
I have one example of Jerry Vines humility and this after John 3:16 conference:
SBC Tomorrow [Peter Lumpkins] > Tom Ascol, The John 3:16 Conference and Widening the Divide: An Appraisal: Part I.
Don't get me wrong with the above link ... I do not agree with Lumpkins on most of the issues and I have a great respect for Tom Ascol.
"Vines still is, and always has been a happy preacher"
IT'S NOT ABOUT BEING HAPPY, IT'S ABOUT BEING HOLY
"He demonstrates he really is a heart preacher as he speaks gently"
WE GOT TIRED OF THAT NAMBY PAMBY PREACHING, WE WANT SOME HEAT
"I know this is not just show"
OH....ARE YOU GOD???
"I've been tough on Vines over the past few years"
NO - WE KNOW WHO YOU HAVE BEEN TOUGH ON.
PULL THAT TIMBER OUT OF YOUR EYE
Having sat under Dr. Vines preaching for years, it simply makes no sense whatsoever that anyone would consider him "theatrical".
I find it extremely difficult to believe that SEBT would allow professors (in the classroom) to name names of those they personally don't think should be emulated. To do so would seem to be very unprofessional.
How about doing away with preaching period? I mean, what is the point? They get up there and entertain you for half an hour or so, remind you how you're a worthless sinner, or how you should give them money, or they try to encourage you, or remind you to try to be a good person.
If you want to follow Christ, then read the gospels. And get encouragement from your actual friends. And save your money or spend on things you think are worthy or help somebody.
Who needs to be lectured once every 7 days? You can get together with your friends elsewhere and there are lots of ways to hear good music.
On a different subject, I've noticed on here that the ultimate insult seems to be calling someone a liberal. Is being a liberal the greatest sin of all?
WD, you really don't know the man. Just the public one. That is all that needs to be said. We all wear masks and have a public persona.
" Anonymous said...
WD, you really don't know the man. Just the public one. That is all that needs to be said. We all wear masks and have a public persona.
February 9, 2011 7:41 AM
============================
Very reason we left FBCJ - not all of us wear mask, we are who we are every day - we certainly wasn't a good fit among the fakes. Opening today's Times Union I see we have another one of Brunson's Godly church buddies making front page news. Very disgusting article - I believe the law - not Hogan!
"Is being a liberal the greatest sin of all?"
It depends on what you mean by liberal and the context.
"IT'S NOT ABOUT BEING HAPPY, IT'S ABOUT BEING HOLY"
Yeah, because Mac is so Holy with his land deals, trips down the Danube, and calling church members sociopaths in the paper.
My comment didn't go thru. So quickly I'd say someone above is correct in saying that the public persona as a preacher and the real man behind the scenes can be two different people. You don't get to be in a position of status and power USUALLY by being humble and pure as the driven snow.
"How about doing away with preaching period? I mean, what is the point? They get up there and entertain you for half an hour or so, remind you how you're a worthless sinner, or how you should give them money, or they try to encourage you, or remind you to try to be a good person."
Lynn, You have no idea how right you are. Most "preaching" took place in the NT, OUTSIDE the Body meetings.
Preaching, as we know it today, came about during the Reformation when the Reformers replaced the Sacraments with preaching. A step in the right direction but still ONE PERSON standing before all others claiming to be the expert. And paid.
A better way is what is outlined in parts of 1 Corin 14 when believers meet.
We should never assume preachers today know what they are talking about. Be a Berean or you will never grow in maturity past the paid professional on stage.
They get up there and entertain you for half an hour or so, remind you how you're a worthless sinner,
It is true, we are good people, and we are made in god’s image. Instead of constantly filling us with the rotten apple syndrome, preachers should be explaining how wonderful we can be, instead of the guilt trip.
Last comment of mine here, I hope:
Any who says Vines was theatrical in his sermons doesn't know what they're talking about. I heard just about every sermon the man preached from 1988 until he retired at FBC Jax. The man stood in the pulpit calmly explaining what the bible says, verse by verse, taking care to do it in a loving, gentle way, but never was soft on sin or on cultural issues. He preached special topical sermons rarely, but when he did they were very appropriate. I remember after Columbine, a series of sermons. When Marilyn Manson came to town, Vines delivered a masterful sermon of grace and love toward Brian Warner and offered to even meet with him.
I definitely didn't know him personally, but did meet and speak to him on several occaisions. Shared an evening with him and his wife along with our family. I have family members who know him more than I do and I know of his kindness and grace and mercy towards them. He counseled at least one of my children after their profession of faith.
Yes, he has made mistakes over Gilyard that I'm sure he regrets. And the Caner thing, I believe he was duped, and he should have not been fooled again after being fooled by Gilyard.
So I thought I would express my love and admiration for the man who was my pastor for a long, long time, and whose preaching greatly helped me and was a blessing to my family as my kids grew up. If he ever called me personally, I would tell him the same thing, and explain what a blessing he was.
As he said, Come Before Winter, and that is what I tried to do in that post.
Thanks for everyone's contributions to the discussion.
Tom you are a good man!
"Lynn, You have no idea how right you are. Most "preaching" took place in the NT, OUTSIDE the Body meetings.
Preaching, as we know it today, came about during the Reformation when the Reformers replaced the Sacraments with preaching"
A clear understanding of Acts 2 shows us that the Christians not only met in homes but also at the temple (observing the Jewish hours of worship). We know without a doubt that there was a preacher in those days when they were in the temple. Peter was one of them. I imagine he preached more often than the others.
It is likely, what we do for preaching today is more like what we find in Acts, than what we find in the State church during the time of the reformation.
I like the idea of the both / and, not an either / or scenario when it comes to the gathering of God's people for preaching / teaching. I would be concerned about some house groups these days if the people leading were angry and wanted to vent.
WD: I disagree with you on this one. Difficult since I am usually in your camp on your positions. I am sorry to say I think you may have been in the kool-aid zone on this one. You usually see through to the real situations on things, and have pointed out when others have an opinion swayed by their personal experience.
Alas, there are those that have also been around for a long time with experiences not so pleasant or enjoyable. As far theatrics are concerned, I remember an IMAG presentation of someone ,(down and out) getting saved, it was a dramatic skit, play acting presentation. Another attempt at theatrics, was during a Chest of Joash service. I think it was called "This Old Box Talks" or something similar. The box opened automatically (remotely triggered) and then some words came from the empty box. Hardly necessary. And did not Dr. Vines write a book on how to present emotion from the pulpit, along with other tips on pulpit delivery? I can't remember the name of the book, but this was my "take" on the subject matter that I read.
Yes, I've imbibed the Kool Aid in my day.
But I disagree with your disagreement.
The man preached for 23 years, and I'll say 100 sermons a year. 2300 sermons. 99% were a balding middleaged man in a tie standing behind a podium with an open bible calmly explaining what the bible says. He did uses three point alliterations, and maybe a few PowerPoint slides in the days of the Imags in the new auditorium. But come on...no theatrics, very little emotion, no brow beating. A man, a bible, a podium. He didn't prance up and down, didn't stomp, didn't jerk his glasses off his face or make gestures, or overuse humor or stories or history.
A remote controlled chest? Come on, you can't be serious.
Did Vines write a book on preaching? Absolutely. Two of them back in the 80's. One on sermon deliver, one on sermon prep. Have you read them? I have. You are commenting on something you know very little about. He did not write a book on "emotion" from the pulpit. It was how to effectively deliver a sermon. I'm sure now that no one at SEBTS wants to read it. No pictures (smile), and it is very technical and not filled with references to pop culture and how to meet the felt needs of a congregation and how to be hip. Just a technical text book on how to deliver and prepare a sermon.
Anyways, as I said, I'm expressing my feelings here for a man I called my pastor for a long, long time. He is not perfect, and I've highlighted some of his flaws here on this blog. Just trying to come before winter.
"A clear understanding of Acts 2 shows us that the Christians not only met in homes but also at the temple (observing the Jewish hours of worship). We know without a doubt that there was a preacher in those days when they were in the temple. Peter was one of them. I imagine he preached more often than the others."
A clear understanding of Act 2 is in prophecy for the starting of the church. All of it, place, time, method...even Peter as the rock upon which I will build my church was prophesied.
Note: Peter was "preaching" to unbelievers to become believer.
So, what are we doing now in the "Body" of believers when they meet?
Stephen was "preaching" to the Pharisees. Paul "preached" in the streets and outside the synagogues. When he got in trouble for that, he once rented the hall of tyrannus for UNBELIEVERS to hear the Gospel preached.
It is simple...you do not have a clear understanding of Acts 2. See 1 Corin 14.
You are also not taking into account the disaspora in AD 70 when the temple was destroyed and the Jews scattered. After that, Jewish influence and converts waned and Christianity became more Gentile.
"I would be concerned about some house groups these days if the people leading were angry and wanted to vent"
What is the difference between doing that in a house or a mega church?
Place is not important unless we are making idols of the buildings like many do.
Place is not important unless we are making idols of the buildings like many do.
Very good point.
"In a very sincere way,apologizying to anyone that he may have hurt or may have been cruel to when he was pastor here". Quoting from your blog., WD. So does this mean he actually recognizes that he was cruel and hurtful to people while he was here? Guess so or he wouldn't have apologized right? There are some that would very much have appreciated an apology. And could possibly have been forgiving, if they felt the apology to be sincere and one on one, face to face. I understand the obligation of a Christian to forgive blah, blah, so on and so forth. But I also believe it must be a genuine request from a repentant heart. When I have asked for forgiveness for something I usually try to face the person one on one and ask for it. Somehow at large, in general apologies are reduced in significance. It's like saying I know I did wrong but I am not going to admit too much. As I say he must have felt he did hurt some, or he would not have made this remark. This admission in it's self is something unexpected after this long period of time.
"Peter was "preaching" to unbelievers to become believer. "
Still a needed message on Sunday morning. Do you think the 1000's who got saved daily quit coming to hear Peter preach because they got saved?
"What is the difference between doing that in a house or a mega church?
Place is not important unless we are making idols of the buildings like many do
Wrong is worn, whether in a small house or a mega church. It can happen in both. I think you would agree with that.
I guess the meeting in the temple was something they should not have done. Stupid building.
Meeting in a building does not make the building an idol. If so, then the same should be said about a house.
Think broader, you might enjoy more things Christ is blessing.
I am absolutely sincere about the talking Chest of Joash box, the lid of which opened remotely. I was there. It was a small silver/gray box. There were two songs played as part of the presentation of the sermon. Maybe you missed this sermon. As far as I remember it was used only the one time. After that Dr. Lindsays toy box and two duplicates were used as before for Chest of Joash. As to my not knowing what I am talking about, you would be suprised as to the authority I am. I don't like quarreling with you WD, as I remotely look on you as a friend that has been done wrong. But please believe I have an opinion and a "history" also. Which I am truthful about. Your experience is not always someone elses. Nor is someone elses experience yours.
Wrong is worn, whether in a small house or a mega church. It can happen in both. I think you would agree with that.
The problem in any place, house or building, is people will start assuring their authority and call it biblical. I don’t know for sure, but did Jesus teach in a building?
Certainly the leading Jews did. The only authority is the bible and many people have abused that authority. The bible needs to be where lost people are so they can know the truths of it.
Anon 2:59 pm - I'll take your word for it on the automated, talking chest. I just wasn't there.
We can be "remote friends" and still kindly disagree on some things. Thanks for sharing your views, and reading mine. I don't think that everyone's experience matches with mine, I'm just wanting to share mine here and give you a chance to do the same.
You are a good guy WD. My blessings and prayers are with you and your family. And continued thanks for allowing us fellow bloggers to post our opinions. I have always spoken truth in matters of circumstances. Thanks again for having "faced the heat" and being a stand-up guy .
Tom Parker:
I was the anonymous that you asked about the CR. I forgot to sign the post.
You know how I feel about the CR. I was totally successful in that it wrested the SBC seminaries and other entities from people who either had non orthodox views of scripture or would employ those who did.
Sorry that I forgot to put my name on the comment and that I created any confusion.
Louis
Louis:
You and I can choose to agree to disagree about the CR.
The damaging effects of it are evident to me everyday.
Watchdog,
I think your article here was very fair and gracious. Jerry Vines is a wonderful preacher not just in delivery but how he builds a message is amazing. If SEBTS profs are using him as an example of what not to do it's simply ridiculous.
On another subject someone asked if Jesus ever taught in buildings and the answer is yes, He occasionally taught in synagogues. (Luk 4:15) "And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all." BTW much of our practises regarding worship services we got from the synagogue system. Further Paul preached to believers in Troas in an upper chamber. (Acts 20:7, 8) "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together."
John Wylie,
Thanks for the follow up on the teaching in a building. There seems to be a need to teach in a building just like the biblical record demonstrates.
Well I just think it doesn't matter where it happens as long as it happens. I have a problem when people present churches using buildings as being somehow against the scriptures when it's obvious that Jesus Himself and the early church did sometimes utilize buildings.
Well I just think it doesn't matter where it happens as long as it happens. I have a problem when people present churches using buildings as being somehow against the scriptures when it's obvious that Jesus Himself and the early church did sometimes utilize buildings.
Great Point!
Vines is a little too scripted in his poetic style of preaching. Example - There were always places he planned for emotion, which made it very unathentic.
Speaking of apologies, he needs to apologize for not leaving the churhc at FBC the way he was given it by Dr. Lindsay. Lindsay loved those people, but I think Vines loved the pulpit more than the people.(at least looking back, that what seems to be the impression)
He often used unhelpful rhetoric as well. "I rahter have a snake in my baby's crib, than one drop of alcohol in my home!" Or "Some say its unspiritual to talk about numbers, well I tell you what, God wrote a whole book on Numbers! Amen?"
Watchdog, tell me you don't agree with that kind of preaching?
Also, Vines was not committed to meaningful church membership, church discipline and biblical church leadership and do not get me started on money wasted on the music program to hoist "Jesus" in the air at Pastors' Conf.
That's when I stopped going.
Too much show time.
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