Matthew 7:15 (NIV) “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matthew 24:11: (NIV) “…and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”

2 Timothy 2:23 - 25 (NIV) - 23Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. 24 A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth.

Monday, February 9, 2009

Jerry Vines: "Let Me Show You How We Grew a Church, Boys"

Dr. Jerry Vines preached Sunday night at the FBC Jax Pastor's Conference, and what a contrast as he delivered an absolutely masterful sermon out of Hebrews. This wasn't a re-worked sermon from Vines' archives - it was new and fresh. It is absolutely not an exaggeration to say that more scriptural truth, more true passion, more grit and conviction, more LOVE and sincerity, was delivered in 45 minutes by Jerry Vines than has been proclaimed all year in the pulpit of FBC Jacksonville. Again, that is NOT an exaggeration. Sorry Mac and Smyrl, it is true.

Jerry Vines last night was a man among boys at the 2009 FBC Jax Pastor's Conference. The man has not lost a single step, he is still as sharp as ever in his delivery of an expository bible sermon. As a man, as a preacher, as an expositor, he is so far above the other speakers at the conference it is mind boggling.

It was a sad sight in some ways, to see Dr. Jerry Vines at a conference he himself established, preaching in front of such a relatively small crowd. Just three years after the apex of the conference in 2006 when there were thousands and thousands of pastors and the building was so full, last night the auditorium was perhaps 1/2 full, maybe a little more. Even the people of FBC Jax couldn't turn out to pack it out along with the few pastors present. How sad. But its a new day, and maybe the old man and his bible sermons aren't what is wanted these days. Maybe people, even at FBC Jax, now want fluff, history, anger - not a loving, happy, but hard-hitting bible sermon full of bible truth.

It was nice that Mac made an attempt to show great respect for Vines...but how revealing is it that Mac's trusted church marketing advisor, Maurilio Amorim, the man who has had to come along with Mac to consult with Mac on how to develop strategies to grow the church, to do "Kingdom planning", didn't even stay to hear Jerry Vines. Maurilio was there for the previous speaker, J.D. Greer, but then Maurilio bolted. In the middle of the sermon here's Maurilio's twitter that came forth over the Internet:

"Enjoying a beautiful piece of parmesan crusted snapper at the Chart House with @moverstreet"

How absolutely disgusting. Maurilio, flown down here by Mac, put up at the Omni, wouldn't even bother to stay in the building, out of respect for his client Mac Brunson if for nothing else, to hear the prince of SBC preachers deliver a sermon. Maurilio couldn't bear to sit down with a bible in his lap, and sit under the preaching of the man whose faithfulness helped build the church that is now paying Maurilio huge consulting fees. Maurilio couldn't find time to hear the man preach who himself established the very conference that Maurilio now has helped transform into a marketing bonanza. Is that not amazing? Is that not disgusting? And Maurilio's twitter during the sermon was to say "I ain't there, and I hope you know I ain't there." The people of FBC Jax are probably paying for Maurilio's Chart House dinner while Vines preaches. But what does Vines have to teach the great Maurilio - Vines is just a country bumpkin, like the rest of the FBC Jax members, to Maurilio. Probably a good thing Maurilio was not there, as his toes would have been stepped on so hard by Vines he wouldn't have been able to make his 6 mile run in the morning along the St. Johns River with his Twittering friends.

The content of his sermon, out of the book of Hebrews was excellent - I'll let you listen to it yourself...but even more than the sermon itself, it was as though Vines' sermon was saying:

[Note: the words below are NOT those of Jerry Vines, not even a close paraphrase. Watchdog is giving his own "message within a message" - a message that was unspoken by the action of Vines to stand and deliver a bible sermon as he did at Pastor's Conference 2009]

"Stand back fellers....let this 70-something year old preacher show you young whipper-snappers who think they know better...let me show you how its done. You guys who think you know how to use marketing techniques in building a church, who think the answer is advertising and promotions....I'm going to show you what Homer Lindsay, Jr. and I did three times every week for 40 years that built FBC Jax. You see, when I came here to FBC Jax in 1983, I didn't bring a marketing consultant with me. I came here with a bible in my hand and got busy PREACHING THE WORD. "

"Watch me boys, as I show you how to stand in the pulpit, open the Bible, deliver a powerful, passionate, loving, yet convicting, verse-by-verse, expository sermon. I'm not going to give a history lesson. I'm not going to use the pulpit to attack my critics who have been after me lately on the Calvinism debate, I'm a bigger man than that to attack people, pastors' wives, or female seminary professors from behind the sacred desk. Watch me, as I stand up and don't back down on one of the moral issues about which I am most passionate - that is the use of alcohol. I hate alcohol not because it makes me popular or because my contemporaries will cheer me for it, or because it will build my brand or get me a conference gig. I hate it for what it does to people I love and pastor, so I will do what my predecessor has not done in three years - I will give a clear, biblically valid, passionate, heart-felt defense for total abstinence. I will also lovingly tackle the issue of church music - explaining that the PASTOR is responsible for making sure music is theologically correct. I'll also tackle the issue of crudity and rudeness in the pulpit - since so many of the SBC preachers these days think they can act like bullies in their speech. Watch how I stand on my convictions, but do it in a way that is NOT angry. It can be done, fellers. I did it for 23 years here at this church - how quickly you forget!"

"Watch how I react when I say a good point and get only a smattering of applause. I won't step back and 'amen' myself and reprimand my audience...I'll just say that I'm not looking for applause, and I'll make light of it and say a joke but still get my point across. Psst...Mac, I won't even take my glasses off and stare you down."

"Watch me as I will preach the text, but give a little bit of Greek explanation and verb tense when it helps to make my points; but I won't use it to try to impress you with my knowledge of Greek. I'll give a few historical contexts, but only so far as it helps me to make the scripture relevant to my listeners - not to wow you with how much 18th and 19th century history I've read this past year. I will make reference to other helpful scriptures, but I won't hop and skip and lose my audience in my quest to show them how I can handle the scripture."

"I will even at the end show you guys how to do a real altar call, inviting people in a clear, loving way to invite Jesus into their hearts. "

"That's how its done. I did it for 23 years here. Homer did it for 30 years or so. It was what I JUST DID, preach the Word with love, power, and conviction, that will grow a church. Do what I just did week after week after week, and you won't need a church marketing consultant to tell you how to reach people in a city they haven't spent 5 days in."

I'll close with this: last November the Watchdog wrote an article on "heart" and "annointed" preaching - the two essential characteristics of preaching that Vines discussed in his books on preaching. The contrast between Vines sermon tonight and what we have had at FBC Jax for three years is exactly what that article was all about.

God bless you, Jerry Vines. Thank you for your faithfullness to preach the Word all these years, and to still be doing it and doing it well as an example for those who are coming behind you.

63 comments:

Anonymous said...

Now, maybe the trustees know what they have accomplished?

Anonymous said...

WD - Thank you for beautifully contrasting the preaching styles of Brunson and Vines. As I listened to Vines, I had many of those same thoughts. It made me sad, missing the many times I was spiritually fed and nurtured by Vines and Homer Lindsey. Those days are gone, replaced by one who not only doesn't feed me spiritually but insults and abuses me! After listening to Vines and Zacharias, I just felt so darn sad for FBCJ.

Anonymous said...

WD

So what are the numbers @ the PC? I heard 1200 pastors. Just curious.

Thanks for exposing Maurilio...I see no spirit led concerns in him...his tweets leave me empty.

God will receive the glory in spite of the efforts of Mac, Smyrl, and Maurilio. The rocks will cry out...

I know that Dr. Vines preached Sunday morning @ North Jax and heard it was wonderful.

Anonymous said...

The church grew under Operation Andrew...that would be people reaching people one on one...a VISITATION program.

Anonymous said...

Well, now do any of you see that we are in the "Falling Away", of the church, that is to take place in the "latter days"? I wonder what Dr. Vines "really thinks" about his choice for FBCJ now? He recommended strongly, Brunson to take FBCJ, upon his (Vines) retirement. The "good ole boy network", don't you know. I wonder if this false way to "grow" a church.... marketing... were around during Vines and Lindsays day if we would have had it in the church then. But by the Grace of God we had preachers such as Vines and Lindsay holding fast to the bible and witnessing for Jesus. Jesus was then still head of the church. At least our church, FBCJ. Now it is a bunch of opportunist out to use the church and the name of Jesus to make money. Just because a preacher stands in a pulpit using the name of Jesus, does NOT make them the "real deal". But, you get what you ask for... and we got Brunson and the A group. Make that we were given. The church had no say so in anything, it was a "done deal". And now we are paying for it...literally paying for it. No one is going to pay any attention to Vines. He has no power anymore. No one would pay any attention to Lindsay if he were alive either. We have the "new church growers" now. We have the "new" methods. And boy they are doing great. We have lost half our church membership, as have others. We have problems everywhere with abusive pastors taking over churches and their finances. These new methods are really very spiritual arn't they? People are getting saved everywhere arn't they. For what price will one sell out? Will it be worth it on Judgement Day? (Comments, of course are just my opinion, having been in the church for a long time). A sad, sad day for this church.

Anonymous said...

Difference between Vines and Brunson: Vines comes across as someone very genuine. I believe Vines believes what he preaches. I believe Jerry Vines believes the entire Bible is the word of God. I believe that when Jerry Vines says that he hates alcohol, that he actually does hate alcohol. There is a sincerity about Vines, that even those who disagree with him respect him for his stances.

Ahem....now, Brunson: he comes across as what the anon above said - an opportunist. I'm not sure he actually believes deeply everything he says. I think about his comments on the low-riding pants a few months back and how he said something like "ya want me to get fundamental?". I think a lot of what he says is what he thinks he's supposed to say. I know that sounds strange and counter-intuitive because he can be such a jerk in the pulpit that you would think he doesn't care what people want him to say. But he comes across as someone playing the role of "southern baptist preacher"

And Brunson's manner of delievery is so brash, cocky, arrogant, and angry, that even if you DO agree with him, he makes you wish you did NOT!

Anonymous said...

It was said that Brunson didn't get a "honeymoon" from FBCJ. I think what many are praying for is a divorce!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

A few other marriage and honeymoon night analogies came to mind, but we better not go there....

Anonymous said...

BAAMMM! WD knocks anutha one out of the park!

Man amoung boys is dead-on! These people are children. How some of these guys have wives and children is unbelievable. But then again, they all have dollar bills in their eyes, and just like self-absorbed, shallow, rebellious, greedy children - like attracts like.

Brunson, Mourillo et. al. can't even carry Vines's socks - much less fill his shoes.

Anonymous said...

Hey Mac - just because a class act like Jerry Vines emails you (and many other preachers too) to encourage you on Sunday mornings does NOT mean he supports your accepting a $307K land gift three weeks after you took the job. Nor does he support your taking of 3000 sq feet of prime space in the children's building (he built) for your luxury office suites. Nor would he approve of your issuing trespass warnings and banning from the church campus a sweet Christian couple whom he loved and pastored for 20 years. Yes, Vines knows who they are and can tell you about their faithfulness and ministry for decades before you came along. And if Vines wanted to change the by-laws, he could have, and would have, simply made them available to his flock, discussed the needed changes, and passed them without any backlash. And we already know what he thinks of the nepotism... How can we be so sure? By observing what he lived. He never put his wife or sons, or son-in-law, Tim Williams (a gifted, God-called evangelist) on staff for a reason. And even you would have to admit he wouldn't let the greaseball Maurilio get involved in ANY "strategy sessions. So, Mac..Vines' actions speak volumes. And yet you mention an encouraging email he sends you.

Your bringing him back every year to the PC is your effort to give yourself some credibility? All it does is expressly show your abuses.

You sir, are cashing in on the love and respect due Dr. Jerry Vines, simply by virtue of your having followed him. Sickening!

Anonymous said...

Hmmm...parmesan crusted snapper, or Jerry Vines. Easy choice, I take the "Jerry Vines special" everytime over the Chart House parmesan crusted snapper. I can get the snapper anytime, but how often will I be able to hear Jerry Vines preach?

Love ya Maurilio, thanks for showing us FBC Jax plebes the way! Hope you're enjoying your stay at our expense.

Anonymous said...

I am curious, can't "preachers see through" other preachers? Where is the Spiritual Discernment among preachers, when dealing with their own? Maybe Vines didn't really "know" Brunson. If so he needs to take a stand other than to preach generally on how to grow a church. We need some hard, heavy hitting, spiritual hitters in the pulpit. Not a heavy hitting abusive opportunist.

Just an aside: If you are a Republican and a Baptist, this is sadly not your year(s).

Anonymous said...

Can we get Vines to "pulpit supply", until we can do this thing over and call a "real preacher"?

Anonymous said...

Can we get Vines to "pulpit supply", until we can do this thing over and call a "real preacher"?

Anonymous said...

yea no kidding, Vines vs. Flop House Fish Dish, let me think about that for half a piece of a second...NOT!

Anonymous said...

Mr. Watchdog:

I'm writing this to let you know last week I sent an email to my fellow church members who attended the Next 8eneration kickoff meeting with Dr. Brunson last year. They numbered about 218 email addresses in all. This was not some private list of email addresses, as they were email addresses distributed with a follow-up email from the pastor a number of days after the kickoff meeting.

I will send you my letter to your web mail address on this site, but suffice it to say it was not at all one of attacking the pastor or staff, but one of asking the church leaders to pray for more openness, more transparency, and more honesty between the leadership of our church and the church members during these very important days in the life of our church. I also provided a hyperlink of this web address in case the recipients of my email wished to see for themselves the issues members were discussing on your web site.

Now, I will confess I did not use my real name. I did not for fear of what might happen to my family or myself if I did. I do no wish to have ministers delivering a trespass warning so I used another name. My fears were quickly confirmed, as almost immediately I began receive ugly, accusatory emails from deacons and long-time members who have called me Satan, have told me to leave the church if I don't like it, touch not thine annointed, and many other like responses. Some responses were simply kind remarks asking for removal from the email list. But I have no less than 25 emails from deacons, Sunday School teachers, and other long time members expressing disdain for me, and wishes that I would leave the church. Needless to say, I am shocked. Some of these people I know personally - or thought I knew them I should say.

Then today I have learned that a letter went out from the church leadership to some or all of the people I emailed presuming to know the intentions of my email, saying unkind things about the sender's motives and asking for prayer for Dr. Brunson as he is being attacked with lies and slander and innuendo. If I receive a copy of this I will forward it to you as well.

Lockheed said...

"I hate it [alcohol] for what it does to people I love and pastor..."

Is he serious? Can he not Biblically discern the difference between the sin and object of obsession? Does he hate sex, because so many evangelicals abuse it? Does he hate food because sooo many succumb to gluttony? This isn't just terrible logic, it's damnable theology.

Anonymous said...

Just wanted to say i don't even go to your church (or live in Jax for that matter)--but from an outsider perspective, you seem borderline obsessive/compulsive. Unless you just live to complain and whine, just find a NEW church for cripe's sake. Or start your own (you seem like you wanna preach anyhow). Who knows, you may just start your own web-stalking cult or something.

Anyway, good luck w/ that and your evidently empty, lonely or borderline psycho journey in life..

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Lockheed - you would have to hear his entire quote before commenting on his theology on the matter. What you quoted in your post was not Jerry Vines' words - and he gave a logical, and theological reason for his stance on alcohol. Sure, many won't agree with him, but he does give his reasons and they are good ones.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 2:33 - didn't get your letter. Use the email in the profile on this site.

Anon 3:24 - sure you aren't in Jax? I think you're fibbin'

Anonymous said...

Lockheed,

Let me tell you of a brother inlaw, a cousin inlaw, my uncle, my brother who were all killed in drunk related car accidents. You sir, obviously have been unharmed by such happenings.

Drink up!!!

it is written said...

Too all you yahoo's who think that Dr.Dog should reveal his ID to Pope Brunson and his merciful inquisitional storm troopers(Deacons);Anon 2:33pm just shot that insane Idea down!!!!

Anonymous said...

Hey, at least be accurate about the square footage Team Brunson took from the children's building before they even arrived. It is not 3000 square feet. It is 3,633 square feet. See the details below:

Renovations
Pastor's office buildout
Business Name: First Baptist Church
Business Type: Religious
Project Address: 600 N. Main St., No. 100, between West Ashley and West Beaver streets
Zip Code: 32202
Entry Date: 3/21/2006
Square Footage: 3,633
Value: 96,750
Contractor: Center Brothers Inc. of Florida
Contractor Phone: 9047332820
Contractor Contact: Phillip May
Architect: TTV Architects Inc.
Architect Phone: 9047988333
Architect Contact: Tri T. Vu
Interior Designer: TTV Architects Inc.
Agent: John Blount III, construction administrator
Owner: First Baptist Church
Owner Phone: 9043566077

it is written said...

Anon 3:24pm..You frustrated psychology experts tickle me...Oh by the way the career choice with one of the highest rates of suicides are in the field of psychology!!!!Go figure.

Anonymous said...

Annon 2:33

I think we would all be interested in hearing more about your email venture. Especially what the Deacons had to say of their beloved pastor. Did anyone give any reason for the many problems with Mac? You mentioned the ugly email, did you get any favorable responses? Was there any comment of the need to replace Mac Brunson?
We would like some followup. Respectfully

Anonymous said...

Annon 2:33 how were you able to send an email from your computer and not have your identification be made known to those who received your email? Doesn't your email have your name on it as well as your address? Maybe others might like to send the " 218" an email!

Security is the issue here.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 2:20 - still don't have the letter, use the fbcjaxwatchdog@gmail.com email address.

But if you're getting nasty emails from church members, it makes sense. For 3 years our church members have seen anger in the pulpit. They've been fed a steady diet of words from a preacher who lashes out at those who disagree. A bully in the pulpit who is angry at those who are against him, produces people in the pew who are likewise angry and intolerant as well.

Sad, sad.

Anonymous said...

Church pulpits have always had preachers who were not called of God to preach. Men have taken on the JOB of preaching like they would take on any job. Get a job to make a living, or for any number of reasons. Maybe there mother or their wife wanted them to be a preacher. I have known of or heard of men who were in it just for the benefits and perks.

Paul said that a preacher should preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you do not do that you should not be in the ministry. Is Mac Brunson preaching the gospel? Count the times!!

Thy Peace said...

"Annon 2:33 how were you able to send an email from your computer and not have your identification be made known to those who received your email? Doesn't your email have your name on it as well as your address? Maybe others might like to send the " 218" an email!

Security is the issue here."


Please check this comment I posted on Wade's blog, here. This would make your ip address invisible. It uses US Navy Tor anonymizer network to use their servers to cover your tracks.

I have noticed when you send emails from yahoo web accounts, your ip address is visible. I am unable to find it with google. Though I would encourage you to test this on your own. Of course, if you send it from coffee shops, you do not need anonymizers. But always use web accounts. I personally prefer google. But always test, before you jump in.

Please read the cautions in that comment I posted on wade's blog.

Les Puryear said...

Dr. Vines said:

"let me show you how its done..."

"I'm going to show you..."

"I did three times every week..."

In this brief excerpt of yours from Dr. Vine, I count the use of the words "I" and "me" and "my" a total of 53 times. I count the use by Dr. Vines of the words "Jesus" and "God" a total of one time.

I'm a bit tired so my count may be off by one or two but hopefully you get my point.

If this is your idea of biblical preaching, then something is very wrong. I don't have a dog in this fight, so if you want to glorify Dr. Vines and villify Dr. Brunson, have at it. But preaching the Word of God involves proclaiming Christ, not the preacher.

Regards,

Les

P.S. Perhaps this is why younger men don't want anything to do with the SBC. The self-serving styles of Dr. Vines and the rest ring false to those who are honestly seeking a word from God.

Anonymous said...

And here comes Les "Bitter" Puryear rehashing his personal agenda and dislike for Dr. Vines because of Vines' stance on 5-point Calvinism.

You may want to re-read, Les. Dog was paraphrasing. I think the locals here at FBC Jax would tell you our former pastor is the least self-serving person they know. But don't let the facts get in the way of your bitterness towards our former pastor because you disagree with him on the Calvinism issue.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Hold your horses, Les. Be sure to read a bit more carefully. Aren't you one of the guys up for the prez at the SBC? I would think you'd read a bit more carefully

Before the italicized portion that you tallied, and attributed to Vines, is this paragraph:

"The content of his sermon, out of the book of Hebrews was excellent - I'll let you listen to it yourself...but even more than the sermon itself, it was as though Vines' sermon was saying:

What you tallied is MY interpretation of what Vines sermon demonstrated to the preachers. Here was Vines at a Pastors Conference, and "all" he did was stand up and give a simple bible sermon. So I took the liberty of putting into words what the act of delivering a simple bible sermon says to Mac, Maurilio (who was twittering at the Chart House during the sermon), and the others who are into church marketing. Those words are in no way a representation of the actual words delivered by Vines.

Sheesh...

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - it wasn't even close to paraphrasing, either. It was a tongue-in-cheek interpretation of what his act of standing at a pastors conference and delivering a simple bible sermon, was saying to the people. His humble, yet profound message was to say: LET ME SHOW YOU HOW TO GROW A CHURCH. JUST PREACH THE WORD, BROS.

And Les I'm sure you were waiting for Vines to take up the Calvinism issue in his sermon last night since Vines has taken quite a bit of heat from the Calvinists. But Vines is not of the new breed. He really does not use his pulpit to attack is critics, and he doesn't use it to attack the critics of his buddies. He stood and preached the bible, took on a few important issues like alcohol, music and worship, and angry foul-mouthed preachers.

My point: that sermon that Vines delivered last night is EXACTLY the kind of sermon that Vines delivered 3 times a week for 23 years here at FBC Jacksonville. He's not a history buff, he's not Greek verb tense guy, he's not a hop-skip-jumper, he doesn't preach topically, he doesn't display antics and gymastics up down and around the pulpit, he is not a showman, he doesn't take his glasses off and peer down his nose. He stands, and he delivers the word.

Preaching the Bible with love, passion, conviction, and sincerety.

What a novel thought.

Anonymous said...

Are the Calvinist theories so prevalent within the SBC? If there are then thats pitiful. Its not mentioned in the BIBLE. God never authorized John Calvin or anyone else to stand in for the Holy Ghost and the written Word. People get all bent out of shape because they follow a man and if he is picked on that upsets them. Just read and study the Bible and when they pick on Jesus then get upset, but not with a man...any man. We at our best are filthy rags. Get it.

Anonymous said...

Les, I would chose Vines and his style over Mac anyday. Vines was taught by both Lindsays how to encourage members to be planters and workers. Its people reaching people like it is spoken of in the Bible. This new emerging church philosophy of marketing and sales will never work. There is no committment to the Lord, but rather a comittment to the program. I agree that a lot of young preachers are losing respect for the SBC and so are a lot of the members. The numbers speak for themselves. Also, whether Vines said I ten or one hundred times, he was emphasizing how it was done. You have to use yourself in illustrations in order to show how it is done, not in the third person. At least Vines knows how to preach a sermon without history that takes your thought patterns in another direction. Take your pick.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FBC Jax Watchdog said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Les Puryear said...

Watchdog,

I guess I was a bit more tired than I realized. My apologies to you, your readers, and Dr. Vines.

Per your recommendation, I will take down my erroneous post.

Regards,

Les

Thy Peace said...

Les Puryear: My Apologies
I have taken down an erroneous post I made about FBC Jax Watchdog and a sermon I thought was from Dr. Jerry Vines. I was wrong. The "sermon" was a paraphrase by the blogger of the site, not a sermon from Dr. Vines. Thus, I extend my apologies to the owner of FBC Jax Watchdog, their readers, and Dr. Vines.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Thanks, Les.

Anonymous said...

Try to figure this TULIP out from scripture. 1 Total depravity...Noah, Joseph, Abram, Daniel, Job, Samuel, and many others including 7000 in Old Testament and 144,000 in New Testament chose God and His righteouness including the thief on the cross. They were not totally depraved. God gives all men a measure of faith. 2. Unconditional Election. The men in 1 did the choosing just like those that drowned chose to die rather than repent and go with Noah.3. Limited atonement. God died for the whole world anyone can be saved eliminates this hypothesis.4.Irresistable Grace. Saul had the Holy Spirit and then lost it. No need for the cross under this idea.And we know without the cross we would all be lost without Jesus Christ and His shed blood. 5. Preservation of the saints.uncoditional since they are in that election. This cannot be the case since it requires action on the part of the believer. He has to accept the Lord as savior.Jesus told Nichodemus Ye must be born again. It required Nichodemus and everyone else to make a decision.

I hope that Dr Vines is against Calvinism as I do not know whether he does or doesn't. However, if he's catching heat thats a good thing since we all have to make a stand or just fall over whenever the heat comes our way.

I thank Watchdog for taking a stand as most just flip flop all the way to the grave!!!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Great message by Johnny Hunt on worry.

He closed out his message by explaining that in these difficult times he is still drawing his pay check from his church, but he said he felt led to double his giving during these tough economic times. He said that as long as there are friends of his on hard times that can't tithe, he's going to "double up". He said that when he announced that, his emails went crazy from people in his congregation that doubled up as well.

He also told of how his congregation decided to "love loudly", because "talk is cheap", and they have been helping the down and out in their city by getting doctors and dentists to donate several days and set up shop in the church to help those who need medical and dental care...and other ministries to care for people.

Thy Peace said...

Correction:

"Of course, if you send it from coffee shops, you do not need anonymizers."

The above is not correct. Most coffee shops now a days, you have to pay to access the internet. Also, one can never be certain that the network traffic is being recorded or being monitored.

The only way to get around this is to use encryption. So you would be safer using the OperaTor. There is also XeroBank, but you have to pay for it (but you can try it free for 30 days).

To really protect your browsing experience, when visiting questionable sites using malicious scripts, you need to do several things:

- Use a program similar to BufferZone. This is a virtual wrapper to a browser and it buffers the scripts of web pages from your data and identity. Please note that this program is still in beta for Windows Vista. But there are similar programs like this that will protect you from malicious scripts. Of course this will not protect your ip address being revealed and there is no encryption.

- Windows Steady State, will protect your computer even if it gets infected. Just reboot the computer, and all your changes are gone. This program is used in all public libraries and public shared computers. Of course this will not protect you from revealing your immediate past web destinations and such to malicious scripts.

- If you use firefox, always use NoScript.This will disable all scripts in a web page. Very useful program. Saved my life many times.

Polipo
Tor: Overview
Tor: Generation 2 Onion Routing

One final comment: Whenever you download anything online, please check the MD5 hash, using this. This will give you some guarantee that the package you are downloading has not been tampered with. Of course you have to compare the MD5 hash with the publishers of the package, where they show you their MD5 hash. Very important.

Good luck.

Anonymous said...

I asked this question a couple of threads ago but was late to the party and nobody was still around to answer, so if it's OK I'll restate it here. Seriously I'm NOT trying to stir up anything. I'm only curious about something. What if pastor Julie Pennington-Russell of FBC Decatur, GA or some other female SBC pastor desired to attend the FBC Jax Pastor's Conference. Would she be welcome? Or allowed to? Or is it strictly "preacher boys" only?

Anonymous said...

From Maurillo's Twitter:

"Saddened to hear that my good friend @michaelhyatt ate at, I can barely say it, McDonald's while in NYC. That's just tragic."

What a snob! He can barely muster the fortitude to even utter the name "McDonald's." What's the matter, Maurillo? Are you too good to eat at McDonald's? That's the only place a lot of the sheeple whose tithes pay your consulting fees can afford to eat out these days.

"I'm not sure I should be driving around with a hot burrito between my legs."

Not only is he a snob, he's crude.

it is written said...

Jesus said "You will know them by their fruit"...The fact that Mac has this guy Maurilio doing anything for FBC Jax tells us everything we need to know about Mac's level of Biblical DISCERNMENT!...Does HIRELING come to mind?..This guy Maurilio could careless about Jesus Christ,His Church,His Faithful followers or those who are lost...Why?...Well out of his own mouth the motives of Maurilio's heart are revealed for all to see...It all about HIM and his lifestyle..What a pity!!!!..Worse and Worse Dr Dog Worse and Worse!!!

Thy Peace said...

"That's the only place a lot of the sheeple whose tithes pay your consulting fees can afford to eat out these days."

At McDonald’s, the Happiest Meal Is Hot Profits

Sales Fall Sharply for Retailers Not Named Wal-Mart

Anonymous said...

Did Maurilio really "twitter" that stuff re: McDonalds? If so then Mac, trustees and anyone approving of using this man and his organization to perform ANY function for FBCJ, should be VERY EMBARASSED. What a CRUDE individual!!! But, since Mac has an iron-clad contract with FBCJ, and Maurilio has an iron-clad contract with Mac, then Maurilio knows he has nothing to worry about. He will ALWAYS get his money, because Mac is the "iron-clad" king at FBCJ. Nothing can be done to replace him. Deacons, trustees and all who support Mac and Maurilio, don't think for one moment that you will not answer to God for the actions of these pretenders. If I were head of an organization and someone behaved like this Maurilio cat, I would fire him post haste. But when the whole group (leadership) is self serving, there is no one to answer for these egregious behaviors. I suggest all of us pray and watch what God does. If you don't pray then you have no right to complain. My heavenly Father can handle this situation.

Maurilio is arrogant as well as crude. Your money pays him and he doesn't have enough respect to pretend to be spiritual. What an embarassment for this Church. I really wish they had to deal with Dr. Lindsay for about 5 minutes!!!

Anonymous said...

Is this the same Jerry Vines that last year you said gave "high fives" to Mac and justified his salary? While I agree Dr. Vines sermon was a great encouragemen, there is no evidence that he has changed his mind about the high salaries mega-pastors receive.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I don't go that far IIW...I won't presume to know how much Maurilio does or does not love Jesus or the followers of Jesus, or the lost.

I believe he is a Christian man. He speaks openly of his faith as I have read his blog and twitters, and says he led his "trainer" to the Lord.

Really, I don't have anything against Maurilio in this. I highlight Maurilio and his lifestyle because of what it says about Mac, who we thought was a God-called pastor to lead our church, that Mac has to use Maurilio to develop strategies to reach our city. That Maurilio is a highly paid consultant at our church also says a lot about the church itself, and its lay leaders, that we stand by and allow our pastor to take OUR MONEY, that we give to be used by our church for the furterance of the gospel, to be spent on Maurilio's services - which then Maurilio in a sense flaunts on his twitter as he roams the country and twitters of his expensive meals and meetings with important people. I don't know of any church I've ever served in that would say: "We need Maurilio to figure out how to 'market' our church and reach the lost."

As I've said many times, Maurilio has a successful business, and no one can question his company's skill in technology and web design and all of that - and that has helped churches. Good for Maurilio and I give him credit for that. But its the aspect of his business of "church marketing" (which really is nothing novel, its just Marketing 101 that any student learns in undergraduate business school) that those services are in high demand, speaks more of the condition of the church and pastors AND SEMINARIES (who are putting out pastors that need Maurilio's services) today than it does of Maurilio.

I have no problem whatsoever in different worship styles, innovative evangelism strategies to reach new generations...but a pastor, especially one of Mac's stature (and pay grade) that needs Maurilio (and his wife and son on staff) to develop "Kingdom Strategies" - when we have a full complement of seminary trained staff and a boat load of smart, highly educated lay people...and we STILL need Maurilio...kind of sad.

I am afraid that the satellite concept is Maurilio's brain child - after all, Mac has discussed it in terms of a marketing strategy like "McDonald's", so its reasonable think Maurilio is involved in developing the strategy of taking the "FBC Jax" brand and extending it geographically. Sound "marketing" principle.

This is a new concept, very bold...to take a church that is at best stagnant and really is in decline with aging facilities and not enough funds budgeted or funds raised to care for the CAPITAL repairs necessary and with plenty of growth capacity down town....and to then pursue a church growth strategy through satellites to "dominate" and "take over" a city with "one church, one pastor, one deacon body, one group of trustees" is very risky. We shall see.

If we need to move our location because its bad and no one wants to drive downtown to hear about Jesus, then let's move the church. But the "one church, five locations"...not sure that will fly too well in a city with near-mega, conservative SBC churches already to the north, south, east, and west - with pastors that STILL are preaching verse by verse and are not using church marketers.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Yes, same Jerry Vines.

But it was two years ago that he high-fived Mac, not last year.

But I forgive him for that sermon two years ago where he spit at anonymous emails and high-fived and hugged Mac after Vines said about troublesome church members: 'you don't pay me enough to be yo preachah,, brutha'. The last two years Vines has not stood in the pulpit to defend Mac like he did that year, but delivered bible sermons. So yes, I've forgiven Vines for that. And there's a story behind the story there, but one that must forever remain untold.

But as someone posted yesterday, we know what Vines thinks of nepotism, and sheep beating, and church marketers, and land gifts. Vines didn't come here and build a million dollar home on a quarter million gifted tract of land...he didn't come and live on Amelia Island on the ocean his first year, he didn't come bringing a church marketer in his hip pocket as a condition of pastoring the church, and Vines did not put Jon Vines on staff or put his son-in-law Tim Williams on staff...both capable men that could have served here and no one would have said a peep because of Vines' long tenure and faithfulness - and LOVE toward ALL of his congregation.

Did Vines earn a hefty salary? Of course. He made a lot on his books as well. But he humbled himself and served alongside Homer Lindsay for 23 years, and to Vines' credit he TRIED to get Mac to come on board and serve as co-pastor to make it a smooth transition. But Vines stayed in the same house for 23 years, a very modest home as compared to Brunson's, and even today he lives in a modest home in the Atlanta suburbs as he and Janet are empty nesters.

Vines wasn't perfect, and mistakes were made as I've blogged about here, and contrary to what the blogger said about the Watchdog yesterday, I am not "against everything Brunson and love everything about Vines"...but Vines' 23 years of faithful service at FBC Jax speaks for itself, and Brunson's 3 years thus far speaks very loudly as well.

Anonymous said...

Healthy Pastors Healthy Churches.

Vines' sermon is what a spiritually healthy preacher will do. He will preach the Word with power. With conviction. With sincerity. With love. With application to current events. With passion.

And it is that preaching that Vines did that builds healthy churches! Because such preaching makes for healthy, committed Christians who love Jesus, love the Bible, and love the lost. That was the formula for years at Jax:

1. Spiritually healthy pastors

2. Spiritually healthy, happy, loving church members

3. Healthy, growing, "cutting edge" church

That is the formula, my friends.

And I'll add: Vines is also very PHYSICALLY fit for a man of his years, as compared to many of the much younger pastors sitting around listening. Ouch. Did I just say that? You better believe I did!

Just too bad Maurilio wasn't there to hear Vines. What a slap in the face of Brunson and the members of First Jax that he didn't stay to hear Vines, and even sent a Twitter out from the restaurant across the river to all his twits letting them know he wasn't there to hear Vines. Was that arrogance, or just stupidity? You pick.

Ouch. Did I just say that? You better believe I did. And if Homer were here today, he'd want to know why Maurilio wasn't there too (sorry, you have to be a member to understand and appreciate that last comment).

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Gotta love him.

Here's Maurilio's latest twitter as he gets ready to "teach" the pastors:

"Ready to teach: "raising money in difficult times." Praying that I'll help people to find faith & courage in this time of opportunity. "

Yep, raising money. Now that is one thing he can speak to.

it is written said...

Dr Dog's your quote...."That Maurilio is a highly paid consultant at our church also says a lot about the church itself, and its lay leaders, that we stand by and allow our pastor to take OUR MONEY, that we give to be used by our church for the furterance of the gospel, to be spent on Maurilio's services - WHICH THEN Maurilio in a sense flaunts on his twitter as he roams the country and twitters of his expensive meals and meetings with important people. I don't know of any church I've ever served in that would say: "We need Maurilio to figure out how to 'market' our church and reach the lost"......POINT PROVEN....Maurilio doesn't boast or praise in how good God has been to him,he boast and flaunts himself and his lifestyle....The solutions he develops for Churches conviently appears to leave out or waters down exalting and glorifying Christ un-shamefully?...Now the next question is why does a seminary trained Pastor like Mac go along with this Church building nonsense purposed by and imposter like Maurilio?....Mac knows!!...Mac you can fool most the people all of the time;;But you can't fool the few people at anytime!!!

Anonymous said...

Mellow, Mellow,Mellow. Watchdog... I see your are in your forgiving and appeasement mood today. I prefer your "tell like it is" mood. You sound like you approve of some worldy methods in the church you say you "have no problem with worship styles (what's that),you have no problem with "innovative(?) evangelism strategies". Sounds like something coming out of the A Group. Have you studied this worldly garbage? These comments coming with your past declarations that you don't care about Purpose Driven or whether we have a legitimate bible, I am beginning to see an uncomfortable "liberal" picture here. By legitimate bible I mean those that have been "changed" over and over and over. Still agree with you Watchdog on many issues and appreciate the fact that you keep going. We need the voice that you allow us and for that I am grateful. Just wish you would study the REASONS we have the problems in the church today. It's the above mentioned worldly tactics that have entered into the church. Many who just accept the world into the church later wonder why there are problems. May I suggest a look at what the church did when it WAS LEADING THE LOST TO JESUS vs. the worship styles and the innovative evangelism strategies, the Purpose Driven movement, and the "any bible" will do concept. Many don't find any problem because they DON"T KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM. BECAUSE THEY HAVEN"T STUDIED. It's like don't bother me with the TRUTH, I am happy with the error.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

While Johnny Hunt was encouraging pastors to give more and serve more and meet peoples' needs because "talk is cheap"....

Here comes Maurilio with his tweets this morning:

"Gave Matt Chandler grief for wearing dress pants and Johnston and Murphy shoes. He retaliated by mak "

and then

"Chandler retaliated by making fun of my Kenneth Cole shoes and "fancy" suit. "

So now Maurilio wants to flaunt his very high-priced shoes that he and Matt Chandler wear. Go to these company's websites and you'll see these are high-end, high-priced shoes, that very likely NONE of the pastors present at the conference save for Mac Brunson, are wearing.

Its really too much to bear, the thought that this guy has a prominent influence on Mac Brunson and is "teaching" the pastors at our conference.

God save us.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - well, you have something in common with Mac, and you should give him credit.

He has not started a "contemporary worship service" at FBC Jax. That should make you very happy.

I'm with Vines - I'm not too worried about the "genre" of music and worship...just that it is scriptural and that the Word is preached.

Anonymous said...

WD: WRONG!!! I have nothing in common with Mac. Neither do I compromise what I believe. I neither compromise and accept "man made religion". Just because one uses the name of Jesus doesn't make them spiritual, nor does it give them spiritual discernment!!!! Remember what Jesus said: "Depart from me I never knew you". So much for works and "innovative strategies".

Anonymous said...

This Murillo is really sleazy and my gaydar is going off, too.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I still am astounded at the absence of Maurilio and his topics on the agenda and schedule.

He is nowhere.

Why wasn't it on the agenda: "Raising money in Difficult Times"?

it is written said...

Dr.Dog Both Maurilio and Mac are FRAUDS plain and simple!!!!..If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck,and quacks like a duck,then doggone it's a DUCK!!..If they talk like FRAUDS and they look like FRAUDS and they act like FRAUDS;;;Then doggone they both are FRAUDS!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

The Bane of Religious Pragmatism

terriergal said...

"he gave a logical, and theological reason for his stance on alcohol. Sure, many won't agree with him, but he does give his reasons and they are good ones."

Good ones does not equal theological ones. Paul made good reasons to avoid meat sacrificed to idols too but also allowed that it was a matter of consciences.

From your summary, it doesn't sound like he spent much time on the gospel, but rather a variation on the moralism that is plaguing the church everywhere. It was just turned on pastors this time.

Was Jesus present in the sermon in all his fullness? Then it wasn't a Christian sermon.