"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Thursday, November 3, 2011

Robert Morris: I Check Tithing Records of Daughter's Boyfriends, Don't Want to "Give Her to a Thief" - Full-Blown Legalism on Display

"Of course I would check the tithing record of a young man that wants my daughter. Why would I give my daughter to a thief?" Robert Morris, explaining why he pulled the giving records of a church member who wanted to date his daughter, and ultimately married her.
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Some fathers might use their investigatory powers as a law enforcement officer to run a background check on a daughter's boyfriend. The boy might be a felon, after all, or a pervert.

But Robert Morris takes a different tact in his sermon from October 30, 2011: he admits to using his investigatory powers as a mega church pastor to check the giving records of a boy who dates his daughter to see if he is tithing.

After all, what could be worse than your daughter going out with a non-tither, or a "thief" as Robert Morris says. Nothing like having your eventual father-in-law measuring your worth as a man based on whether you fork over 10% to his church or not.

Watch Robert explain below why he pulled the giving record of his eventual son-in-law; and see the full-blown legalism of Robert's tithing doctrine as he explains how the boy was "late" in tithing by one day, and he explains how non-tithers can not expect God to give them "significance" if they don't fork over 10% on time.

And of course, the question remains: how would Robert know if the boy was tithing unless he also knew his salary?

And the most disturbing question for members and contributors of Robert Morris' Gateway Church: did you know that your pastor has open access to your giving records? How could your church allow the pastor to see the giving records of the contributors?

49 comments:

William Thornton said...

Better plan, let him marry her. Get him a job in the church where old dad-in-law knows the salary. Good old fashioned nepotism with a purpose.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Move over, Steve Gaines. You can't hold a light to this guy!

Anonymous said...

The arrogance and self-righteousness of these modern-day pharisees seemingly knows no bounds.

Anonymous said...

I should not be surprised after reading this blog, but I was amazed that the pastor would have access to financial records of individual members of a church. In my church (LCMS), only the financial secretary (lay person and church officer) and staff record, maintain, and have access to "who gave what." It would be considered a serious violation for this to occur. In my particular congregation, the pastor has no role in financial matters except when the board of elders and he discuss his salary/benefits. His portion of the budget is under the control of the chairman of the elders.

Chris Rosebrough said...

What day was this sermon preached?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Sermon was preached this past Sunday, 10/30.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

The video that I posted is choppy, as I wanted to edit out the scenes of the camera shots of his daughter and son-in-law. How tasteless was it for him to use his daughter and his son in law and multiple camera shots of them as he tells the story? They don't deserve that, and thus I did not include them in any video shots of my video showing Robert's false teaching.

Chris Rosebrough said...

Good gravy!!! This is one of the MOST brazen money grubbing things I've ever seen. AND IVE SEEN A LOT!

Anonymous said...

WD,
You're as obsessed with money as these guys. You are one in the same. Why don't just let God deal with it rather than making yourself the money police.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Yes, Robert Morris is THE most brazen "first fruits" tithing pastors around, and that is saying a lot these days. He is not ashamed at all to try to fool people with his twisting of scripture to support his first fruits tithing doctrine. He is "cutting edge" in that regard. The only other pastor I know that has come close to admitting they look at tithing records is Steve Gaines over at Bellevue Baptist Church. Check out this blog post.

The sad thing is that Robert is doing is dead-level best to spread this false baloney to other churches and cities. He was at the biggest church in my hometown of Jacksonville, Florida, just a few weeks ago, and the pastor there has started "Blessed Life" groups where the members are reading Robert's book on how to have a blessed life through tithing.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - just want people to be aware. Robert and his ilk have no problem spreading their teaching to other cities, I'm just a blogger trying to let people know what they are teaching.

BTW, if I WERE the "money police", I would arrest these guys for fraud.

:)

Anonymous said...

And what makes you think that a secretary, staff, or lay person might be any better seeing the financial records than the pastor. In one church I know, they have five people count the money every Sunday--and then those five go out among the congregation to tell all they know.

Someone has to see them folks. Get real.

Of course you could give cash and then noone would know and then you would scream about your IRS deduction.

Anonymous said...

WD,

Just wondering, These preachers who preach the Old Testament dicipline of tithing, do they themselves tithe? The Priests in Old Testament did not tithe. Do these modern day preachers claim the same exemption?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I'm waiting for the new country hit by Robert Morris, entitled "Still Checkin' Yo' Tithe", sung to the tune of "Still Cleanin' This Gun" by Rodney Atkins.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Lyrics from Rodney Atkins' country hit "Still Cleaning This Gun", adapted to Robert Morris' tithing doctrine of checking tithing record of daughters' boyfriend:

Come on in boy, sit on down
And tell me 'bout yourself
So you like my daughter, do you now
Yeah we think she's something else
She's her daddy's girl and her mama's world
I deserve respect, 10% is what I'll get, ain't it son
Now y'all run along and have some fun
I'll see you when you get back
Bet I'll be up all night
Still checking Your Tithe.

Well now that I'm a father
I'm scared to death one day my daughter's gonna find
That teenage non-tither I used to be
Who seems to have just one thing on his mind
She's growing up so fast it won't be long
'fore I'll have to put the fear of god
Into some kid at the door

It's all for show, ain't nobody gonna get hurt
It's just a pastor thing, hey believe me man, it works.

Anonymous said...

WD,
You're as obsessed with money as these guys. You are one in the same. Why don't just let God deal with it rather than making yourself the money police.

November 3, 2011 9:09 AM

Wow, If only Paul had had your spiritual maturity he would not have needed to write any Epistles. He could have just told the churches: Let God handle it.

Anonymous said...

William Thornton said...
"Better plan, let him marry her. Get him a job in the church where old dad-in-law knows the salary. Good old fashioned nepotism with a purpose.'

That's how Steve Gaines does it. Everyone of his children got/gets a paid education (Secondary, College for the females, Masters and Doctorate for the males including the spouses of the girls) a automobile, housing, vacations, and a cushy job at the school or church where they attend.

Joshua said...

WD, two things: I shouldn't have posted the link to Mr. Rosebrough's wall as he does sermon reviews on his radio program, Fighting for the Faith (which i in the top two programs on Pirate Christian Radio), and I wanted to hear a good sermon today. Also, Mr. Rich made a comment on the link I shared wanting lyrics to "Still Checking Your Tithe" on facebook (which on second thought, you might be him).

Anonymous said...

"Wow, If only Paul had had your spiritual maturity he would not have needed to write any Epistles. He could have just told the churches: Let God handle it."

So you're saying God can't handle it. Ok.

Anonymous said...

Well I've got something more shocking than the pastor of Gateway looking at your tithing records. This church asks for your bank account statements for its "financial stewardship" classes. It's not just the pastor(s) who sees it. They swear your information is confidential, then they pass out your Social Security number, driver license and bank account information to VOLUNTEERS who try to tell you how to give more money to the church.

You're "significant" alright, Robert.

Bernie Madoff was significant, too. The only difference between him and you: It is legal for YOU lie to people to get them to contribute to your Ponzi scheme.

This is one mean group of people. The spitefulness and religious spirit of the leadership rubs off on a lot of the people who go there. That's one of many reasons why I had to stop going.

Anonymous said...

WD, this stuff gets stupider and stupider. In my 50+ years of living, I could never imagine this sort of cheesy behaviour on part of a pastor.

As one poster here stated, it gets worse and worse. Ughh.

Anonymous said...

Anon said: "So you're saying God can't handle it. Ok."

I seem to recall Him using people in his work, like maybe the apostles.

You seem to be in that group that does not like to learn the dirty laundry secrets of these so called, exalted ones.

The integrity of the message should never be corrupted by the messenger. It's just wrong, unprofessional and an act of desperation.

Anonymous said...

I find it ironic that its wrong for the pastor to check giving records, but its okay for members of the church to know how much the pastor makes. So in other words the members have a right to privacy but not the pastor.

Douglas said...

Rick Warren's favourite extortionist is really letting rip huh. What a stand over thug he is. Man, these blokes have the audacity to call themselves Christians. More like devils I reckon. No wonder people flee these man made organizations not wanting to ever cast their shadows upon another so called church doorstep again. Morris and co make me sick and have not a single thing to say to me thank God. The only thing I can learn from their antics is NOT what to do.

Tommy said...

Wow, this Robert Morris guy is dangerous. What a deceiver.

Ed Franklin said...

@Anon 4:09...LOL you need to call 9-1-1.....you're in the midst of a serious analogy FAILURE!

"...the members have a right to privacy but not the pastor."

It's been 50 years since I took Logic 101, but I think that's "Argument From Spurious Similarity"

Dude, that pastor's salary is PAID by the congregation which wants to know How Much?

If that preacher is employing me and paying my salary, then he can check to see how much, but until then: MYOB

Anonymous said...

Well now you just have to chuckle at this because these guys think they are so cool.

Anonymous said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
"Move over, Steve Gaines. You can't hold a light to this guy!"

Oh Yea...

Word is that Steve Gaines is now checking the pledge records of the leadership for the upcoming voluntary Love Offering!!!

The over and above the Tithe, Offering!!!

WishIhadknown said...

My favorite of all time came from a tax return I prepared. The church printed a book with the giving record of everyone who contributed during the year.

Ed Franklin said...

@WishIHadKnown...that's a good one!

My favorite story, which I really doubt but it's still a good story, is a big congregation which required members to show their W2 or tax return for comparison to the giving record in order to document that they were tithing. This was SBC, too.

There's really no limit to the imaginations of these wolves.

Anonymous said...

Ed Franklin said...
"There's really no limit to the imaginations of these wolves."

What?

Is there no Shepherds?

Is there no god who can police his own prophets?

So who or what is the true religion?

Only 1% are chosen, the rest burn?

How Beautiful!

Anonymous said...

I'm curious to find out how the Mormons handle giving. My impression is that their church is very wealthy, and that if you're Mormon you simply give your correct percentage. If that's true, maybe they just have a tighter, stricter identity, which causes them to all go by the rules-give certain percentage, avoid coffee, alcohol, etc.

Maybe in their religion, everything that's expected is just more straightforward and clear; whereas in orthodox Christianity, you have a zillion different denominations plus different interpretations of their holy book.

Timothy Snider said...

The ONLY reason 'tithing' (or giving) records exist is to provide the gift-giver a record for the filing of taxes and itemized deductions.

This leads to an important point: What does Morris and other 'tithing inspectors' do with the giver who just quietly gives cash regularly?? - such a person not having a need for receipt either due to immense humility, possibly due to having no need to itemize deductions to the IRS, or possibly due to having a very strict interpretation of 'right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.'

I GUARANTEE all readers that there are numerous JOYFUL grace-givers and tithing-givers that do it this way: Just a handful of cash in the plate with no need for record-keeping and reporting. Seems to me there might be potential for a church pope to eliminate candidates for deacon service or to eliminate possible boyfriends for his daughters primarily because said person's giving is not channeled through 'trackable' streams.

In other words, the 'widow's mite' representing all she had would not have registered with 'Pastor' Morris because she didn't need a receipt, she had no checking account, and she had no internet access to create an e-draft from her bank.

Perhaps that MIGHT be a built-in benefit if the IRS ever removes the tax deduction for charitable gifts - givers will no longer need the tracking and receipting and the churches will have a data-stream dry up. How will these types of preachers then keep tabs on their people???

Anonymous said...

Just another TBNer trying to sell another book.

Anonymous said...

"I'm curious to find out how the Mormons handle giving."

they have the same problem

"In December of each year, Mormons are required to meet with their local leader, usually the Bishop, to declare that they paid 10% of their income to the Mormon church. This annual meeting is known as "tithing settlement".

There is no financial disclosure from the Mormon church as to how these billions of dollars it receives annually are spent or invested."

"Tithing settlement is months in the future. I pray that you and your family will begin now to plan and prepare to qualify for the blessings that God pours out on all those who can declare to Him that they are full-tithe payers."

"1) Tithing - The most important step toward achieving financial well being is to pay tithing first-no excuses or exceptions. President Gordon B. Hinckley counseled: "some of you have money problems. I know that. You are struggling to get along. What is the cure? The only thing I know is the payment of tithing."


but here is a bit of a twist:

“Joseph Smith Translation” or “JST” of Genesis 14:39
“Wherefore Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him MORE THAN HE HAD NEED. (Emphasis added.) "

Anonymous said...

Seriously then,

Every person in the U.S. should just start tithing and all the economic woes of the nation, the people and even the entire world will go away!

Shouldn't the pastors be preaching THAT instead of selfish gain? Really...if it truly works that well let's all have at it.

Oh, but there will be some caveat to it, just like there always is. Total BS, but I bet it does pay his new son-in-law's salary.

Bojac said...

It would have been hard for me to have believed that a pastor would go as far as pastor Morris did. I have never asked the church treasurer what anyone gave or gives. I think that is between the giver or non-giver and God. I of course do not adhere to Mal. 3:10 as beimg applicable to the Chtistian living under grace today.

Anonymous said...

WD-Please check your moderated comments queue, as mine is hung up. I don't necessarily need it to be posted, though I did not save a personal copy and wish I could save what I wrote.
Tim Snider

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:29,
Thanks for the Mormon info.

Anonymous said...

Never have I understood the dogmatic and intimadating way tithing is presented, yet is it Biblical to claim this practice as a tax deduction? I marvel at the arrogant mind set.

Anonymous said...

FBC Jax Watchdog,

Greetings. I think that we can readily agree that the fundamental belief which allows Pastors to abuse their position of influence over others is the belief that any and all Pastors are “appointed by God” and must be submitted to as those who relay God’s will and guidance to those who they oversee.

With this in mind, I was wondering: Could you publish material on how to break people of such beliefs?

I ask this because I have a friend who has the potential to do great things for the Lord. Yet, he blindly follows his Pastor with literally mindless loyalty. And he doesn’t realize that he is doing that. So, because of this, his potential remains unrealized and, on top of this, I’ve watched his spiritual health go downhill as he increasingly mimics his Pastor.

I’ve tried to reason with my friend on this issue many times. But, in response, he dealt with his inability to answer my points by pressing his mental “zombie reset button” and, later, defiantly expressing pride in his church, especially when I stopped visiting his church. And, now, we don’t even speak. :-(

And, yes, I’ve met his Pastor when I visited his church at his invite—he is a prime example of the manipulative Pastor. Among other things, he questions your salvation if you do not attend a church regularly and submit to a Pastor, he thinks that the church which he leads is his church, and he responds to disagreement with willful, hostile, and persistent quarreling. And the way in which he delivers his sermons and has his clique surround him during services clearly evidences his desire to cultivate his own cult of personality. In short, he is literally a few steps away from being a full blown cultist.

I look forward to your reply to my question.

Thanks for reading and replying in advance.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Nov 5, 2011 10:30

A direct attack is futile, you have to catch them with a question or two about something to get them thinking.

Opening Eyes takes time and then sometimes only when they are hit directly with an issue personally. Turn over in a church like that is high, so just stay away and let time take its toll. They may come to you later, but as of right now, your on their target/prayer list.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (November 5, 2011 9:26 PM) said: "They may come to you later, but as of right now, your on their target/prayer list."

I sure hope so.

When his church split in the early 2000s, he didn't seem to be bothered by that. To the contrary, he called it a "purification" of his church from "troublemakers" with a big, creepy smile on his face and basically said good riddance to the people who left. And, after that, he said that things have never been better at his church.

And on and on it went with the same “Things are great at my church!” stuff.

So, with this mentality in mind, I would be glad to be on his prayer list and not forgotten as a “negative influence” at this point.

/Praying for my friend.

Anonymous said...

"I find it ironic that its wrong for the pastor to check giving records, but its okay for members of the church to know how much the pastor makes. So in other words the members have a right to privacy but not the pastor."

I find it ironic that its wrong for the member (who pays the pastor's salary) to know how much the pastor makes, but its okay for the pastor to check the giving record of the member (who is not paid by the church). So in other words the pastor has a right to privacy but the member doesn't.

Of course, the pastor has no way of finding out exactly what the member actually makes. He's guessing and then making a judgment as to whether the member is sinning or not based on a false interpretation of scripture.

This is the exact opposite of what the NT teaches us about giving.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if these OT storehouse tithing mega-preachers would also advocate the OT laws on divorce - like Deuteronomy 24:1-4?

Somehow I doubt it.

Anonymous said...

Robert Morris is totally out of control. He has come to the place where he works his tithe theology into EVERY message he preaches, EVERY WEEK. He even talked about his son's tithing records a few months back. I would hate to live in that house! Enough is enough, I got out of Gateway as fast as I could. Jesus delivered my life from the curse of the law and no man is going to put me back under it. Gateway people - go and read Galatians 3:13 - the "curse" has been taken care of once and for all. Do you really believe Jesus broke all the curses in our lives but left one that we have to break every time we get paid??

Anonymous said...

Here is the Gateway Church I know -Went there for two years. Had a family emergency out of state - father in law was on his deathbed. Was short on the exorbident last minute airfare to get my family to see him one last time. Called the "We're All About People" church and asked if they could possibly assist us from their benevolence fund. Days later got a call back from someone who tersely told me there were "NO RESOURCES" available to help us. However, they would be happy to send flowers when my father-in-law passed. That was the day I got my wake-up call. Enough said!!

Marc Jones said...

Football,Basketball and Baseball players are never watchdogged.Why?you Baptist folk make me laugh.

Anonymous said...

It seems that everyone has a personal opinion, but what counts is what the scripture says. Robert Morris is only preaching what the Bible says as far as the matter of giving to God the first fruits of our increase - the tithe. And the scripture no where says the poor are not to do the same. Elijah told a widow to bake him a little cake first. The widows mite was commended, and nothing was said to indicate that she was foolish to give from her penury. It is a matter of obedience in seeking first the kingdom and His righteousness, and , then, trusting Him to meet our needs. To love Him is to keep His commandments one of which is to give the first fruit of our increase back to Him.