"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Friday, March 6, 2009

Brunson Comments at PC and Criswell College

I've maintained on this blog that to fully understand what Mac thinks about his church, about his people, it is helpful to listen via Internet podcast to what he preaches away from Jacksonville - and now also to listen to what other preachers say that Mac has told him. Plenty of examples are on this blog.

I offer two more examples as this blog nears its end. Yes, it is nearing the end. Time to move on. If there are things to be disclosed via a blog about FBC Jax to try to hold Team Brunson accountable, it will have to be someone else's blog. With one caveat of course: this blog will still be used to pursue the truth and to report the truth about how the church leadership obtained a court order to pry into the private Internet records of one of its members (as the discipline committee alleges was done), and what the nature and source of the lies were that were told about the accused in order to get six men to sign a letter and issue trespass warnings - and why these lies were told to the deacons on 2/23 about video taping the pastor's wife and stealing their mail. The Watchdog is absolutely committed to finding the truth about these matters, how the church decided to pursue legal matters in their zeal to expose the blogger (even though leadership ramrodded bylaws through taking away the church membership rights to bring legal action against the church)....and when he does, the facts will be told about this on the blog so the members of the church might hold those accountable who did them. The sooner these facts are disclosed, the sooner closure to this terrible chapter in the FBC Jax history book can be closed.

Comments to J.D. Greear 2/8/09

Below is a brief audio clip from a 2/22 sermon preached by J.D. Greear of the Summitt Church in Raleigh-Durham. Click here to listen to the entire sermon at their website. The remarks I have in the clip below can be heard in the entire sermon at the church website starting at around the 6 minute mark.

J.D. Greear tells his congregation of comments Mac told him privately just before he preached at the Pastor's Conference 2/8. It is a real head-scratcher. I recommend listening to the audio clip below to understand its fuller context in why J.D. Greear tells this, (he is using it to encourage his congregation in their decision to not build a huge building as their church grows, but to expand geographically, at least that's what I gather), but here is the relevant portion of his comments:

"I don't want the legacy of our church to be a big, out of date building we leave as a monument to what God did in a previous generation. I want it to be a movement of people that multiplies all over the world. I got some affirmation on this recently I totally was not expecting. A couple of weeks ago I got a chance to go to and speak at a very legendary church, I spoke there on Sunday evening....a huge church, a great church, church has been wonderful for many years in what its done. But the auditorium that I went into to speak sat 9800 people...as I was walking up on stage, the pastor [Mac Brunson] says this to me: 'Son...don't ever, EVER build a building like this'...I said 'why?'... he said 'Because no matter what you do after you build a building like this one, it becomes about this building, maintaining and filling up this building, and less about the people you need to reach.' "

Maybe J.D. Greear mischaracterized Mac's comments. But I'm going to assume he has characterized them accurately in his sermon.

Several comments:

- this pastor didn't even want to mention the name of our church. Why? Has our church become persona non grata..was he ashamed to say he was at our church, or was it he in some measure wanted to spare us embarrassment by not mentioning our name since he was repeating something unkind our pastor said about us? Although he is generous in his remarks after the quote above that he is not trying to judge other churches or pastors, from his preceding quote about "a monument"...its pretty clear that Greear views our building as a monument to the past, of what our church used to be - and Mac helped confirm that.

- notice he says in the PAST tense: "has been great"..."in what its done"...not is great, or what it is doing...and of course the context of his preceding remark about a big, out of date building being a monument to what God did in a previous generation. This pastor apparently believes we are a formerly great church. Why? Did Mac lead him to believe that? Mac indicted us last summer that we are no longer "cutting edge", so I guess now we know its true - preachers around the SBC know it too. Any wonder why attendance is so low at the Pastor's Conference? And whose fault is that? A blogger? Or the pastor running us down to Paige Patterson, pastors in North Carolina? If we were a formerly great church, I thought that is why we brought Mac, Team Brunson, and Maurilio here. I thought that is why we got rid of the "old guard" of ministers - Howard, Pigg, and Barton. Its been 3 years now. Did we move forward, or have we moved backward?

Is what Mac said about us true? He couldn't have been speaking of any other church, for what other church has he pastored with a "building like this"? If it is true, that we have become less about reaching people and more about maintaining and filling up a building? Should he be whispering to other pastors words that reflect poorly on our church? Did he mean that we should NOT have built that building? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought we built that building because people were being saved at our church, it was a place where the gospel was preached three times a week, and we needed room for them to worship. We didn't borrow money, God moved in people's hearts to give money to pay cash (He did, didn't He?) for that building. Is that building no longer capable of being used? Why then spend millions to upgrade it as Mac has proposed? Or should we sell it and start new down at the south campus?

Does Mac mean we as a church are more interested in "maintaining the building" than we are reaching people? And how is wanting to "fill up the building" something that is contrary to "reaching people? I thought the building WAS built to reach people with the gospel. Or is he sore about the maintenance costs - which would explain the arrogant manner in which he demanded we fork over $ 1 million in two weeks for needed repairs else we would go in debt. Maybe the burden he bears is the poor condition of our buildings when he arrived. As he has told us over and over about Lindsay, Sr's burden of unknown debt when he came, maybe Mac views himself as a victim of delapidated buildings he didn't know about when he came that are now hindering his ministry.

Are those two goals mutually exclusive? The more you "try to maintain and fill up a building" and "reaching people"? He says as you do more of the one, you do less of the other.

I would hope Mac would explain these words. Not to me. But to his congregation, because J.D. Greear's sermon is available online for the world to hear. Maybe J.D. Greear mischaracterized his comments. But Mac should explain what he means. Or maybe we can issue trespass warnings to Mac and demand he meet the discipline committee to explain.

Criswell College Sermon 2/26/09

Below is an assortment of clips from Mac's sermon he preached at Criswell College on February 26, 2009, the morning after A.C. Soud read his edict, and made the church stand and ratify it.

If you listen to the complete sermon, you come away really feeling sorry for Mac. He speaks to these seminary students of pastoring not in any terms of joy...but of drudgery, having to preach to stubborn, obstanate people who won't listen, having to take the arrows, being "shot at", of being "gripped with fear". He leads his audience to believe he is speaking out of experience as he at one point declares "I can give a witness."

No question lay people don't understand how difficult it is to pastor - but most pastors I've met find a deep joy in ministering to God's people - most of whom, I think are gracious and loving people. They do have tough nuts they have to deal with - struggles lay people might not even be able to fathom. But come on...Mac as a mega church pastor doesn't have many of the pressures other pastors do as he has an extensive staff of "Executive Pastors", then regular pastors and staffers, a high-priced consultant - to do the duties that many pastors must do themselves. Furthermore, he has gotten his way at our church unopposed for the most part - the bylaws, the school, generous compensation for himself, wife, and son, satellite church, his church marketing consultant paid by the church, a lavish office suite...and of course the quarter million dollar land gift. Where is this opposition? Where are all the arrows and shots? Can it possibly be that one blogger who has dared to repeat and analyze what he says and does have robbed him totally of his joy as a pastor?

Oh, and he declares the doesn't take a salary to preach, but to attend meetings (and not in jest). He says: "I would do it [preaching] for free. I don't take a salary to preach. I take a salary to go to meetings. They don't pay me to preach. Nobody has to pay me to preach." That's just so intellectually dishonest - we pray him to study, prepare, and deliver sermons. Also to administer the church, to hire and fire people (he has that sole authority), to basically lead the church. AND TO PREACH primarily. And besides, does he take a stipend when he goes to preach at a conference or at another church? Is he not being "paid to preach" in those cases? This is a major problem with Mac - he says things that one must be a complete dunderhead to believe - and you wonder - does HE actually believe them, or does he not but thinks his listeners are stupid enough to believe him?

Perhaps most interesting are Mac's Criswell College comments about those who "blog about me". To the best of my knowledge, Mac has never acknowledged directly to his congregation that there are "bloggers" who blog about him, and has never directly said anything about the bloggers. But in this sermon, away from his congregation, the night immediately following the business meeting indicting the accused blogger and warning others of the same fate, he decides to tell everyone how much he loves those who blog about him:

"You can't be hard-hearted and pastor people. I even care about the people who write about me on blogs. I pray for them. I pray for their families. They matter to me. And I don't pray impracatory prayers (?) against 'em [crowd laughs]. I really don't. I..I...I'm just sharing with you from my heart, I am telling you God gave me this message, to share it, and I'm just sharing that with you. I PRAY for them. Is that not what Jesus said? Pray for those who despitefully use (?) you, for those who hate you?"

Interesting Mac says "I even care"....must he say that? Even the lowly, unlovable bloggers. Maybe he "even cares" about child molesters. If he does truly care about his accused bloggers "and their families" at Jax, he had a strange way of showing it with court orders and trespass papers. I don't know what impracatory prayers are, I assume they are prayers of judgment or condemnation - goodness, if Mac has to say TWICE that he doesn't pray these prayers against bloggers, must be he feels himself guilty! Why would we think he WOULD that he has to say he DOESN'T? But why hasn't Mac ever said these words to his own congregation about bloggers? Just the week prior he said those in the church who blow up "small" things in the church so they can complain, and thereby rob your joy, you should SHUT EM DOWN. He didn't say pray for 'em. But he wants the students, many of whom he knows read the blogs...to think he is a gentle pastor who even loves those bloggers. What a guy, he loves and prays for the bloggers. Imagine, Mac EVEN cares about the lowly bloggers! He doesn't mention lies told about the bloggers to deacons about video taping his wife and stealing his mail, he doesn't tell them about court orders to find the identity out so trespass papers can be served. But he does "care" and "pray".

Just sharing with you here the words of Mac himself, and giving my opinion on them...hoping someone will go to Mac, someone he loves and respects, will help him gain or regain his love for his church, love the congregation, be truthful to his congregation, love his job as pastor, and to stop saying things about his church that cast us in a negative light...even if what he says is true about us, he doesn't need to tell others.

Just be a loving, gentle shepherd, Mac. Love the sheep. Preach the Word. Be totally truthful. Don't beat the sheep. Don't speak ill of them to others.

And Mac, if you can speak of the bloggers and how much you care for them to the students at Criswell, why not tell your congregation the same also.

Or better yet, tell the bloggers themselves.



74 comments:

Anonymous said...

Preaching one thing while doing another...and writing one thing in a guidebook and then doing the opposite, makes Mac a hypocrite. Unless, he is just mentally schizophrenic. I'm no psyche doctor. So I will go with hypocrite.

By the way, I EVEN pray for charlatan preachers who live like kings on the back of the sheep who give. I care about them and love them, I do, really. I don't pray that they will be exposed or that God will deal with them in this life as an example to others, I don't. I pray for them. Even Mac Brunson.

Anonymous said...

What is complaining about our building for?

At least he came to a church DEBT FREE.

10,000 seat auditorium?

Paid for.

State of the Art Children's building?

Paid for.

HDTV Cameras.

Paid for.

1/2 acre lot backing up to the golf course?

Paid for.

Brand new pastoral office suite for pastor, wife, secretary, library, dogs.

Paid for.

That is more than can be said of what Mac left for his successor at FBD - millions in debt, and an old, outdated worship center.

What will Mac leave his successor at FBCJ?

Anonymous said...

Sad, very sad.

He EVEN prays for those who write blogs about him and imagine our blessings in that he doesn't pray imprecatory prayer against us. Imprecatory, meaning that he doesn't pray for evil to fall on us. Isn't that good to know???

I think Mac Brunson didn't intend to come to FBCJ to cause dissension and problems. But because he came and maybe was assured there would be no qualms by the rank and file, maybe he felt free to run roughshod over everybody & everything.

Then when the rank & file did rise up and DARE to ask questions, he decided he was going to STAND FIRM and put down the uprising!

All things considered, including the poor economy, he's put himself in a very bad position and it's likely he's a very miserable preacher right now.

I actually feel sorry for him and his family. But there will never be a big change until he sincerely comes to his flock, explains it all, asks forgiveness and agrees he needs to make changes in the way things have been done since he's been here.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:23

You know, I agree with you! It is NOT right for the preacher to live high on the hog and certainly above the means of most of his sheep.

It's just NOT RIGHT! Some have come here and said he's being paid less than execs who run comparable large corporations, blah blah blah.

Well, he's NOT running a large corporation. There's a large percentage of time when he's not even in the pulpit, at least not on Wednesdays & quite a few other times. How can he do that? Because he has stand-in preachers to do the job for him. And please don't say he's running the corp. We pay people BIG BUCKS to do that for him!

In His Service said...

WD, I wish you and your family all the best as y'all move in another direction. I think that is best for everyone. As a follow-up to your questions of me, I will try to answer as graciously as possible.

All of the bloggers please forgive please forgive my fat, old fingers when posting. I did mean to use the word LIBEL and not LIABLE. For the all of the folks that chided me for not using the correct spelling of the word, sorry but both are words and spell check does not catch that type of thing.

Libel and slander are the two sides of defamation. Libel is when things are written or published in some type of written medium. Slander is when it is an oral representation. The problem with defamation is that it is extremely hard to prosecute as any attorney will tell you.

WD, some of the things that you have written could be construed as libel. Especially when using derogatory language in describing some of the folks that you listed.

I do not know much about blogs, but I noticed that at the top of the page when I make a submission it says that you must first approve it and then you post it. I also noticed that you also have the ability to edit someone's post before you post it. I don't know myself, but it seems to me, since you have totally control over what appears in the public eye that you could possibly be held libel by virtue of facilitating someone's post.

As far as the clips that you posted it would be possible to construe an opinion either pro or con, depending upon the position that someone wants to take.

Like I have said in the past, those for or against certain publicly debated controversial issues like abortion, homosexuality, adultery, or conservative vs. liberal will never have their mind changed no matter what line of reason is presented for either position. A change of ones mind comes from a charge of ones heart.

WD, I think I know you well enough and some of your posts that it is not your hearts compulsion to libel anyone, just that when something is presented as FACT and not ALLEDGED, the door is open for the possibility of libel and slander.

I feel that blogs, due to their anonymous postings tend to bring out the worst part of the human condition and not the best. I also feel that they are typically divisive in nature and do not change peoples hearts but merely flare up the uglier side of human thought.

I do not mean to be ugly here, but I have never been a fan of Jerry Vines and was glad the day that he left. I have always felt that a lot of the ugly things written about Mac Brunson better described my feeling of Dr. Vines. However, I never would have considered blogging or talking to other people about it in an attempt to cause trouble or get other people to see things my way. But that is me. I can see how someone might blog because they feel that is the only way they can be heard.

Also, I am firmly believe that it is the responsibility of the trustees and deacons of a church to provide oversight for a church staff and not the congregants. But if this age of conspiracy theories people still think that men of character can be bought. That might be true in a very small fellowship but not in a very large one. But that is strictly my opinion and belief.

I also agree that if some type of crime has been committed by anyone that those who are responsible should be held accountable whether they are a blogger, congregant, deacon, teacher, trustee and yes even a co-pastor or pastor.

I also agree that FBC has a legacy of being debt free and that Hell will freeze over before anyone would be allowed to encumber the fellowship with unsubstantiated or unsustainable debt, and that includes me.

Again, I wish you and your family the best as you move forward with y'all walk with the Lord in your new church fellowship. May God richly bless you.

In His Service said...

WD, please fix my name on my last post. Sorry, fat old fingers again.
Thanks!

In His Service

not "In His Name"

Anonymous said...

Will the last McDonald please turn out the light. Downsizing is good for corporate America, maybe McDonald needs to downsize his McMansion. A condo for he and McDebbie?

Who started this Mcstuff, I like it.

Anonymous said...

It continues to amaze me that people continue to come down to FBC after watching and hearing what is being said in front of the congregation and apparently in private.

Does the preacher not wonder about why we are under budget, why we still haven't raised enough money to fix the buildings, why we can't fill the building at any service.

Its because the preacher is focused on activity across the ocean, whats best for him and his family ( by the way, what did Trey will do for pastor's conference, that the laymen haven't done for years), and what's best for the IMB?

The reason why those buildings were built was because our pastor cared about the people of Jacksonville. PERIOD. That was his heartbeat, that was the reason why he got up every morning.. and most of all his congregation understood that and knew that their pastor loved them.

Mac.. you are focused on the wrong things. Focuse on the lost in Jacksonville and the people in your congregation.

Anonymous said...

WD, You are asking a man to be something he is not. His heart has not been changed (See Ezekial 36)

One thing few realize is folks project what is in their hearts where they can get by with it. that is what Mac is doing in these sermons away. He wan't empathy for his problems. He sees himself as a victim. This is what Gaines does, too.

These men are professional speakers. Just like the days of old, they entered the ministry as a profession. It is about them. Ever notice that? The SBC is full of these types and they learned from their mentor, Patterson, quite well.

WD, I am glad you are moving on. Yes, do what you can but also there is a time to move on. People have made a choice. Many are under a delusion (See Thess) and it starts becoming a situation where you are beating your head against the wall. People will always follow men instead of Christ. They will say they ARE following Christ. They love their buildings, programs and socialization of the organization they call church. It has been this way for thousands of years. They have convinced themselves they are doing great things for the Kingdom. (We can't. We can only be obedient and faithful)

Jesus will say, "I never knew you" to so many. Matt 7

Chilling words if you understand them in context.


Matt

Anonymous said...

You said again you are going to shut down. I hope not until all the information is out in the open. Everyone needs to know how they made a id on you. I know they will do something stupid and you will have to keep going. What about the plans that were in place to keep this blog going. Are those plans done? I do not know how much longer I can attend FBCJax with all this unsettled.

New BBC Open Forum said...

And I don't pray impracatory prayers (?) against 'em [crowd laughs]. I really don't. I..I...I'm just sharing with you from my heart, I am telling you God gave me this message, to share it, and I'm just sharing that with you. I PRAY for them. Is that not what Jesus said? Pray for those who despitefully use (?) you, for those who hate you?"

Imprecatory prayer: a prayer for God to pour out his wrath on someone. I noticed the characteristic stammer in the middle of that statement. Very telling....

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I also noticed that you also have the ability to edit someone's post before you post it. I don't know myself, but it seems to me, since you have totally control over what appears in the public eye that you could possibly be held libel by virtue of facilitating someone's post."

You didn't "notice" that anywhere because it's wrong. Only YOU can edit YOUR comments and ONLY BEFORE you hit "Publish." Neither you nor the blog owner can edit a comment after you publish it. No one, a blog owner included, can EDIT his own or anyone else's comments. All the blog owner can do is DELETE comments or in the case where comment moderation is enabled (as it is for this blog), the moderator can choose to publish or not publish a particular comment. But please get this straight... NO ONE can EDIT a comment after it's published -- NO ONE.

Nor can anyone change the timestamp on a comment. There was a lengthy discussion about this on Wade Burleson's blog a couple of weeks ago when someone with a WordPress blog was observed changing the timestamps on comments. (I'll leave it to "Thy Peace" provide the links.) This is a feature of WordPress blogs, the ability not only to change timestamps but to edit comments. This is NOT a feature of Blogger, and this is a Blogger blog.

Knowing that about WordPress blogs though, I would never leave a comment on one.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"WD, please fix my name on my last post."

Once again, neither Watchdog nor anyone else can edit a post. You can delete and repost it yourself but only if you were logged into Blogger when you posted it. You were not, choosing to blog using only a screen name. So if you want to make any corrections, you need to ask Watchdog to DELETE your comment, and you can then repost it. Just remember the edited comment will be out of order, stamped with the new time at which you publish it.

it is written said...

"Matt"...Ditto on your 6:32pm post!!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

"But if this age of conspiracy theories people still think that men of character can be bought. That might be true in a very small fellowship but not in a very large one."

Man, you're naive! First of all, true "men of character" cannot be bought. If they can be, they weren't "men of character" to begin with. Some may be "rented" for a while, but no "man of character" can be completely bought out. (Is there no such thing as a "woman of character"?)

Second, what difference does the size of the church make? It's been my observation that there is as much corruption, if not more, in large churches than in small ones, but neither is immune. Pull your head out of the sand, man!

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I do not mean to be ugly here, but I have never been a fan of Jerry Vines and was glad the day that he left. I have always felt that a lot of the ugly things written about Mac Brunson better described my feeling of Dr. Vines. However, I never would have considered blogging or talking to other people about it... "

Uh... you just did.

Anonymous said...

"That might be true in a very small fellowship but not in a very large one."

Very naive. I have seen it first hand. Oh, it starts in little ways and before you know it, they don't even see it.

It is a real club, this mega church pastor club. You blurb my book and I will have you speak at my next conference. You promote my book and I will promote your new bible study. The speaking fee's alone for one of these guys in a year is more than most folks make.

Since they are on the 'circuit' speaking because of their supposed 'success', it would be very hard for one of them to admit their doctrinal and behavioral errors and truly repent. Too many have promoted them as "Great men of God". And of course their 'peers' cannot be embarrassed because they promoted them, too! So, they circle the wagons and go all out in supporting each other against any and all attacks.

Or they will say, Oh, I spoke with him and he is real sorry. Case closed. Nothing about him being qualifed ala 1 Tim 2 as an elder.

If you want to know what a REAL overseer looks like read Matthew 5. We do not recognize real elders because most have never seen a real one before.

Matt

BTW: There are NO great men of God. Only depraved sinners like me saved by grace. When we finally realize this, the Mac Brunsons of the world will be selling insurance.

Anonymous said...

A relevant verse for the situation:


2 Corinthians 2

17Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God

Anonymous said...

I am a member of FBC; however, I have not attended much since Dr. Lindsey died. IMO, Dr. Vines changed somehow and was not as effective as when Dr. Lindsey was there. I have tried to listen to Dr. Brunson on TV, but he just seems angry to me. Did Dr. Brunson really get rid of Rev.'s Pigg and Barton - or did they leave on their own accord? What about the music minister (sorry, can see his face but cannot recall his name)? I was saved in FBC and I am saddened by all the negative things I am reading.

it is written said...

Matt...Amen Again!!!.."There is only one who is GOOD,and that is God[LK 18:18-19]!!!

Thy Peace said...

Spiritual Abuse Masked as Spiritual Authority

My friend, Jeff VanVonderen, has come up with a definition of spiritual abuse in his bestselling book, co-authored by David Johnson, entitled The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. Using the book as a guide, the following is a descriptive definition of spiritual abuse.

Spiritual abuse is when a leader uses his or her religious position of authority to control, intimate or dominate another person. It also occurs when a person in need of answers, help or support is denigrated for either questioning the "Lord's anointed" or not being "spiritual" enough to submit to the decisions of the religious authority.


The First Characteristic of a Spiritually Abusive Religious System:

There is a preoccupation with the leader's authority and the constant need to remind others of that authority.


What To Do If You Find Yourself In a Spiritually Abusive Religious System [MARCH 11, 2006]

Thy Peace said...

(I'll leave it to "Thy Peace" provide the links)

This is to with the SBCToday.com blog and it's problems with messing with date/time stamps.

Search for "Time Stamp".

Forcibly Removing the Tulips at SWBTS (Part II)

Are Southern Baptists Blind or Blindfolded?

Thy Peace said...

One more:

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse [MARCH 09, 2006]

(1). Leaders in spiritually abusive systems spend a great deal of time power-posturing by focusing on their "authority" and reminding others of it.

(2). In abusive religious systems there is a preoccupation with performance.

(3). In spiritually abusive systems people's lives are controlled from the outside by rules, spoken and unspoken.

(4). In spiritually abusive religious systems the mundane becomes the essential, the vital becomes trivial, and the real needs of real people are neglected for the sake of "agendas."

(5). In an abusive religious system those in charge believe that "others will not understand what we're all about, so let's not let them know, or else we will be falsely ridiculed or attacked."

(6). In a spiritually abusive religious system there is a demand that loyalty be to the organization and not necessarily the Kingdom of God.

(7). In abusive religious systems secrecy is prevalent and openness and transparency are rarely seen.

Anonymous said...

I can't wait to see your blog on your new church. You've moved your membership--now concentrate on your new church.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

My new pastor and his associate pastor knows my identity, and I have told them my complete story. And they know my heart and my wife's heart.

it is written said...

Dr.Dog...You've done the job God wanted you to do and thats to expose the abuses of Mac Brunson...Job Well Done!!!Many eyes have been open and many eyes have been shut...Shake the dust off your feet as you leave and God will deal with Mac and his enablers...Remember these poignant words written by the Apostle Paul "WORSE AND WORSE"[2Tim.3:13]...There may be a sense of sadness and lost now;;;But joy will come in the morning[PS.30:5]...May be one day we will meet my brother in Christ;;;But until then I will continue to pray for you!!!

Anonymous said...

I can't wait to see your blog on your new church. You've moved your membership--now concentrate on your new church.

March 7, 2009 10:00 AM

When I read comments like the one above it only drives home the point that many are in a delusion about FBCJ.

Of course, they can only insult. They cannot engage in serious doctrinal dialogue because they are biblically ignorant and cannot see the situation. This is my main concern with Mega's. So many think they know scripture and they have no clue. They have followed man and not Christ. They have been
'proud' of their organization. They do not want to 'think', study and pray. They want a mere man to tell them what to believe.

All they know to do is insult you. Make YOU the problem. I have listented to Brunson many times and the fact they cannot see this is not of Christ is chilling. But, if they want to follow a man, there is not much you can do except warn them. The US and even the SBC is full of such churches. We are seeing the fruit of a false movement called the CR which was hailed as about truth when it was really about power. I know because I was part of it. I repented.

As is becoming quite clear to many by the fruit displayed, it was not really about inerrancy at all. If it were, we would see humble men who look more like Matt 5.

Matt

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:00 am

And you come here to this blog why? To make sure you don't miss any gossip?

Anonymous said...

Ok Matt...

What is CR?

Anonymous said...

What is CR?

March 7, 2009 12:24 PM

The Conservative Resurgence of the SBC that started back in the 70's.

It was more political than it was biblical. Mac is a product of the resurgence system.

Matt

Anonymous said...

Matt...

I've read how the conservatives wrestled the SBC from the liberals in the 70's. I thought that was a positive for the cause of Christ. I've also read several of your posts. You don't sound like anything but a conservative. Where am I wrong?

Now it is true that many of those conservative leaders, Criswell, Rogers, Stanley, Vines and others FELL for that Purpose Driven Movement junk. They all in some way or other incorporated some of Warren's or Hybell's false teaching into their ministries. It all sounded so good in those days when those men got together. Brunson has fallen for the same nonsense. What is your observation of this movement and do you see a link to Brunson like many of us do?

DECEIVED

Hiram Smith said...

Dear WatchDog,
It was so good to read your words in your March 6 post—“as this blog nears its end. Yes, it is nearing the end. Time to move on.”

Certainly your family will be pleased to recover you from blogworld. And, there is little doubt that most of your former fellow church members will be glad to have this episode behind them. Your new pastor and fellow church members will likely appreciate your ending this blog also.

It is too bad that you fell under the viral spell and compelling example of Wade Burleson, as a few others did in Memphis when Bellevue turned to new leadership. Some day I would like to sit down with Riad Saba from Memphis, you from Jacksonville and Wade from Enid. It would be interesting, five or ten years from now, to hear each of you discuss your own assessments of how much good, and harm, was actually done to our Lord’s Church, and to individual believers (including those whose names never appeared in your blog posts) by all of your apparently well intended publishing work, both signed and anonymous. You and Riad condemned your church leaders and new pastor. Wade attacked his fellow trustee/directors and selected SBC leaders. All of your attacks were rooted in those fellow believers simply refusing to do things according to your preferences and standards, choosing rather to do things according to the light God gave them. Sadly, all of these attacks were against decisions and conduct made and carried out strictly according to historic Baptist polity standards for decision-making and liberty of conduct.

It is really hard for me to imagine that the three of you ever consciously tried to obey Jesus’ explicit instructions for undertaking such great enterprises as each of you undertook. Did you, Watchdog, carefully and prayerfully read these words of Jesus and obey them when you began “building the tower of your crusade”? Luke 14:27-33 “And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.”

The changing of leadership in a Baptist church almost always imposes severe adjustment burdens on some members of the congregation, as well as on some of the church lay leadership and on the church staff, but probably on no one more than the new pastor. For some, this task of “forsaking” their own preferences and judgements is a price too great to pay. Therefore, they fail to make the adjustments which are required for one to experience a smooth and constructive transition in church leadership. If the new leadership espouses new and strange doctrines, forthright opposition within the church is understandable—whether that opposition succeeds or fails. But, if we cannot accept the new leadership, as measured by our chosen biblically-based standards, our job is to follow the private and direct biblical pattern of pleading and praying with the individual for him to change so that he meets our standards. If we fail to persuade him and the church, we simply go where church staff and lay leadership does comply with our standards. That is a wonderful feature of being a Baptist, we have no pope, just pastors and other leaders selected by us and our peers (all fellow sinners, saved by grace).

I hope you will soon be so busy working constructively in your new church family that you will not even consider going back to Wade Burleson’s old slash and burn attack pattern—which you pursued with such industry and futility for these past years. Once you really shut down and remove this blog, you will be glad to discover that life goes on. It has not been long since some CBFers, who forthrightly denied the inerrant authority of the Bible, took over my old church (of many years). I pleaded and prayed for them to change, but they did not. Now I am in a church of sound doctrine and I love it, as well as or better than during the good old days in the life of my former church. You can soon rejoice after putting this whole sad experience behind you and your family. And, believe me, your family will be better off for it.

Watchdog, when, recently, I first read some of the things you wrote, at first, I had an urge to try to change your name in the blog world from “Watchdog” to “Maddog” because so many of your words conveyed so much anger and resentment. You expressed much care, but also much anger (some perhaps justifiable). But, I realized I might be reading too much into some of your words. The good thing now is that you are committed to turning your attention to your new church family and to your own family, and hopefully leave FBC Jax behind. And, those commitments will hopefully help turn this bad experience of failing at tower building into an effective learning experience. I pray you will now really concentrate on blessing every member of your family, and that you will occupy your time with them again, as much as you did before being caught up in your Burleson-styled tower building crusade. Maybe you can soon recover from Wade’s virus. I pray you will also recapture that old vitality of love, respect and support for your pastor and church which must have characterized your life before Wade’s virus infected you. When you experience another complaint rising up within you, a complaint against someone or something your fellow church members have voted for, remember Jesus’ rule—“Sit down first and count the cost of that tower.”

With thanks to Him who makes our ways new,
Hiram Smith
Psa.23:1
+++

it is written said...

Matt...Hiram Smith most elegantly proved your point!!! "CLUELESS" "Let the dead bury the dead"!!!

Anonymous said...

Hey Mutt,

I had to come on and say good bye. Just think, without FBCJ denying you entry into the church you would have never found such an outstanding perfect church to join!

So in actually you owe Dr. Brunson and staff a thank you letter. FBC was beneficial to you till the very end.

I knew you were lying when you said this blog is not going anywhere. You could not keep this up forever which I for one am sorry about. I truly enjoyed watching your daily whimper about the next FBC slip up.

Where will your small following go to next? You just going to leave them high and dry huh? At least keep the blog up so these out of town gossip lovers can come back and remember the good ole days. Or how about passing this mucky blog onto the next mangie pup that is still down there? :)

So in actuality the church was right in claiming they knew who the mutt was huh? I personally think its funny how you are mad at how they found out . . . another conspiracy huh? Poor pup . . . its been real.

You and your conspiriacy theorists are just like democrats. You think everyone else is blind to imperfection in life and in church. No we just know how to allow God to lead our path in the midst of it all. However more important we know when to get out, You your a bit slow but look even you eventually catch on.

God had to allow you to get smacked with a restraining order to get you to the church you were suppose to be in all along.

Get dog . . . shoo . . .get . . . lol. Come on all you Mclosers now that was Mcfunny!

Goodbye pup and litter and good riddance

New BBC Open Forum said...

Right. I believe we've seen Mr. Smith's tactics before. How'd that motion you were going to present work out for you, Mr. Smith? How about all the other "numerous motions" you claim to have submitted to the EC? (That one sentence told me all I needed to know!) Did any of your "numerous motions" ever see the light of day? Oh, never mind. Looks like they were all ruled out of order.

Do you know Mr. Saba, or did you just single him out because that was the only name you could think of? If you did know him, I seriously doubt you'd speak of him the way you did. You pretend to know everyone's motives. You don't. You're only making yourself look like a foolish, self-righteous busybody.

You certainly seem to have a personal vendetta against Wade Burleson. Did you practice Matthew 18 with him? Since you're so concerned things be done the "biblical way," I was just wondering....

Don't you just love it when someone rips you a new one, then signs off with "Blessings" or "Grace" or Scripture? Rip away all you want, but don't insult people's intelligence or cheapen true grace or the Bible by attaching such sentiments to your venomous words. It's disingenuous at best.

Anonymous said...

Hiram Smith,

another wayward sheep!

New BBC Open Forum said...

More of Mr. Smith's "encouraging" words.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"It is too bad that you fell under the viral spell and compelling example of Wade Burleson, as a few others did in Memphis when Bellevue turned to new leadership."

FWIW, when I began blogging I was brand new to the world of blogs, and I'd never heard of Wade Burleson. I didn't discover his blog until about a year later.

"It would be interesting, five or ten years from now, to hear each of you discuss your own assessments of how much good, and harm, was actually done to our Lord’s Church, and to individual believers (including those whose names never appeared in your blog posts) by all of your apparently well intended publishing work, both signed and anonymous."

I think it would be much more interesting to assess how much good or harm was done to the church by abusive tyrants like Mac Brunson and Steve Gaines (who at his former church referred to himself as a "benevolent dictator").

"All of your attacks were rooted in those fellow believers simply refusing to do things according to your preferences and standards, choosing rather to do things according to the light God gave them."

Really? And how do you profess to know these things?

"Once you really shut down and remove this blog, you will be glad to discover that life goes on."

What makes you think it will be removed if and when the Watchdog does finish blogging? I hope it stays up for posterity. No one needs to forget the abuses of Mac Brunson.

"It has not been long since some CBFers, who forthrightly denied the inerrant authority of the Bible, took over my old church (of many years)."

Oooh, the eeeeeeevil CBFers. I've come to realize the SBC definition of "inerrant" means "the way we interpret the Bible" and leaves absolutely no room for any disagreement. Does your wife wear gold jewelry and pray with her head uncovered? Does she cut her hair? Just checking.

"You can soon rejoice after putting this whole sad experience behind you and your family. And, believe me, your family will be better off for it."

I agree. And they'll be a whole lot wiser, too.

" I pray you will now really concentrate on blessing every member of your family, and that you will occupy your time with them again, as much as you did before being caught up in your Burleson-styled tower building crusade. Maybe you can soon recover from Wade’s virus. I pray you will also recapture that old vitality of love, respect and support for your pastor and church which must have characterized your life before Wade’s virus infected you."

Good grief! What is it with you and Wade Burleson? Have you ever contacted Wade personally? You're the one with the "virus" that's causing you to be obsessed with Wade. And what's all this talk about "tower-building"? Sheesh! Get over it, man. Like it or not, there's this little thing called freedom of speech. If you don't like what Wade or the Watchdog writes, don't read it. It's that simple.

Anonymous said...

All I can say is that Dr. Lindsay was such a man of God and his teachings were pure and biblical and I was saved at FBC. The first time I stepped into that church, 25 years ago, the spirit of God the Father was SO strong, it could have been cut with a knife. I couldn't keep my tears at bay. Dear Father and Dr. Lindsay, I am so sorry for what this once great church has become. My family no longer attends.

T Rex said...

Hiram Walker, you doth protest way tooo much.

Anyway, say it's not so Maha Watchdog. Keep the blog going. Expose the McPhoniness in the SBC and at FBC. The dog pound needs it's leader.

T Rex doesn't approach this blog from a deeeeply McPhoney-McSpiritual frame of mind but from a McHumorous standpoint.

Be out McLeader ol floppy eared one.

We got your back Maha Watchdog!

T Rex said...

Dog, you still owe us a McCostume-Fellowship (since McBaptist don't parteeeee). Best McDonald dragster would be annointed as the new keeper of the pound (as you drift off into semi-consciousness)

Anonymous said...

Hiram - any thoughts or opinions on any of the abuses by Mac Brunson? What do you think of the land gift, ocean front condo, $307K land gift, nepotism, bylaw changes, trespass warnings, etc? Any comments on any of that sir? SHEESH. Thanks for sharing your off topic opinions, brother.

Anonymous said...

"I've read how the conservatives wrestled the SBC from the liberals in the 70's. I thought that was a positive for the cause of Christ. I've also read several of your posts. You don't sound like anything but a conservative. Where am I wrong?"

I think it may have started that way based upon my personal experience with it but it soon digressed into a witch hunt. If you are old enough to remember the atmosphere back then, it is easy to see why in hindsight. Everything became political. You had the new moral majority and the religious right. Big voting blocks who were courted and it was all about changing the culture. It was the wrong war. We were fools. Did Paul write about a more moral Galatia? A family oriented Rome?

There WERE some very unorthodox professors at some of the seminaries on primary doctrine. And they needed to go. But it turned into a witch hunt for those who disagreed on secondary doctrines that Baptists have historically shown grace. Many a decent Christian was fired from our seminaries and entities in this hunt. Some are not well known who had their lives ruined. Others are well known like Russell Dilday who was lied about and treated horribly. Power is an incredible thing. It was like they could not stop. And they still have not stopped. Now that they won the entire fight and rooted out many, we are seeing those who came together to win are now turning on each other. Notice how the big conflict is now Calvin vs Arminian. Or Baptist Identity.

Some of us remember the days of 30,000 people at the annual convention. Now, it is mostly pastors and staff who attend. We are lucky to get 7000.

We now have a whole generation who believes we should let the leaders make all the decisions and handle everything. The Holy Priesthood concept of the SBC is over.

"Now it is true that many of those conservative leaders, Criswell, Rogers, Stanley, Vines and others FELL for that Purpose Driven Movement junk. They all in some way or other incorporated some of Warren's or Hybell's false teaching into their ministries. It all sounded so good in those days when those men got together. Brunson has fallen for the same nonsense. What is your observation of this movement and do you see a link to Brunson like many of us do?

I do not want to speak about those who have departed us because they are not here to defend themselves. I can speak of what I saw.


However, I do not just see a link, Brunson was brought up by these guys. That is where he learned this. It is all he knows.

They did not 'fall' for the purpose driven stuff. They have been purpose driven since day one. And with one purpose: Large ministries and churches. 40 days was just another tactic.

Many of us who supported the CR in the early days were totally disgusted with it by the mid to late 90's. Some of us saw what it was really about. You had Criswell selling busts of himself. You had Stanley divorcing, promising to step down but then saying his church begged him not to. Most of these guys had profitable 501c3 that they were running while pastors. Why? Pastoring a mega church is not enough? If you notice many of them have family being paid high salaries from the 501c3. Yes, I know this is standard practice. Does this make it right?

Stanley knows he is not qualified as an elder anymore but the rules do not apply to him. But they will go after anyone who disagrees with them.

These guys do what works. If that means embracing Purpose Driven to drive the numbers, then so be it. They are program guys. Campaign guys. They do what it takes to stay in the limelight.

If you have not read Joel Gregory's book, you should. He fell big time after FBC Dallas. but his book will give you great insight into how mega's work. It is amazing what these guys will spend on offices!

What they are in denial about is that mega's are on their way out. They climaxed a few years back and now it is about maintaining. Which is why he cannot ignore the blog or the WD.

Remember, many have bought into the lie of success in numbers means God is blessing it. That has no grounding in scripture from the Epistles to Revelation. Even in the OT, God shows us He will only save a few. The fact our churches operate the way they do with the Rick Warren's and Joel Osteens IS God's Judgement and should make us fall on our faces.

We were not hated and despised for His sake for 30 years. We were courted as a voting block.

Matt

Anonymous said...

WATCHDOG-

Wanta Bet??? HE IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE!!!

Watchdog!!!!! Man,,,this dog can hunt.

Just because he no longer attends that once great miracle of downtown Jacksonville, DOES NOT MEAN THAT THIS BLOG IS FINNISHED.

Be serious, he is just getting started.

Do you honestly think that the world doesn't need to know about the MODERNIST, LIBERALS, RELIGIONIST, PURPOSE DRIVEN, SEEKER SENSITIVE, PRAGMATIC COMMUNITY TYPE, AND MINISTRIES OF THE DEVIL?

About all of the harm that they are causing the local New Testament Church. About the Gospel and Doctrine that is not being preached. About CHANGING the old TRADITIONS THAT THE LORD COMMANDED US TO USE TO LEAD THE LOST TO JESUS.

Why, these Johnny Come Late-lies are just CHANGING ONE TRADITION FOR THEIR OWN TRADITION. You know, CCS.,CCM, no visitation, no Hymns, no bibles or just any bible, small groups and facilitators where everyone tells everyone about there sins so that the DISCIPLINE COMMITTEE KNOWS WHO TO TARGET NEXT.

Yeah, THE DOG IS JUST GETTING STARTED. This country and world are starved for the knowledge of what is going wrong in these last days. They know something is happening but they don't know what. Well in the last year THOUSANDS HAVE VISTED THE DOGS BLOG. He has provided some timely WISDOM that the Church needs.

Nope, he is not going anywhere. Can he change his name? Maybe! He may not need to.

So Dog, what do you say? THINKABOUTIT!!!

Anonymous said...

Matt...Hiram Smith most elegantly proved your point!!! "CLUELESS" "Let the dead bury the dead"!!!

March 7, 2009 4:14 PM

itiswritten,

One thing blogging has shown us is how full our churches are of folks who follow after men. And how our churches actually keep us biblically ignorant. (Lifeway materials are the worst for shallowness)

It is a wakeup call. Some will be convicted of truth and come out of her to follow Christ with true believers. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of understanding what Jesus was telling us in Matthew 5-7. A good tree will bear good fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. And we must discern fruit or be decieved. In Matt 7 we read these chilling words: I never knew you.

We see more persecution from professing Christians than we do from the secular world who only hurl insults. But we see all sorts of petty acts such as what was done to Dr. Klouda, WD in getting the tresspass order, etc from professing Christians! Such is the confusion that is the Western 'church'.

We have dumbed down sin to the point we do not even recognize it anymore.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for replying MATT...

You show some light on what I already new. I wanted to see if you had seen the same things. Many of us who were stewards of the Lord at FBCJAX, until Dr Lindsay went home, had no need to bother with the state of the country. We were busy. Yeah we saw some of the changes but souls were being saved big time so we were not looking for the wolves.

You mentioned that they were always PURPOSE DRIVEN. You may be right. I knew all of these men but Criswell. All of them were Godly men. But I guess they could be God's men and still be misled.

The devil would love to get preachers off tract so that a whole generation of preachers
could be messed up. Maybe the Lord is allowing this to happen. The U. S. DOESN'T SEEM TO BE MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE.

We could go on Matt... again thanks for your observations.

BLESSINGS,

DECEIVED

gereja said...

Anon,

I have never heard Vine preaching live. I did download two of his sermons and had a deep sense of his genuiness--genuine love for people and souls. I happened to sit and listen live to Mac, once before he moved to Jax: strange feeling--I thought this preacher was empty and phony. I sense he is on a mission for himself. He has what Paul said had the form but lacked the power (soul) of the ministry. He did move to Jax because he knows the whos.

Lu Mo Nyet

Anonymous said...

WD, please say it isn't so....don't stop your valuable service here. Although I can understand it, it would be a sore loss to those still attending FBCJax. What I don't understand is why anyone with Bible discernment would continue attending there, or giving money to support it with the way things are at this point. Maybe some are hoping a change is coming. I finally left the church I grew up in when it was impossible to ignore they were no longer a church, but a social club instead. In hindsight, I should've left it long before I did. But I do have a few questions & comments for Mac Brunson - since it's very obvious he does read this blog:

1. you said you didn't bother about anonymous blogs because they were just beauty shop gossip. If that's true, then why did you go after Watchdog with such persistance and kick him out of your church? It seems obvious that what you said about the harmlessness of a blog wasn't true, which makes you a liar.

2. Your book about pastors says that "Some pastors unintentionally separate themselves from their people by living in executive houses and driving luxury cars. Billy Graham has lived in the same house and driven older cars for decades. He did not allow people to give him automobiles. He did not allow local committtes to furnish luxury automobiles for him during crusades. Guard against greed. It will do you in." If you stand by those words, then why did you allow a member to furnish you with not just a car, but a valuable piece of land on which to build an executive house? Either you lied in your book (making you a liar) or you don't feel your words pertain to yourself, which would make you a hypocrite. Either way, it does not present a man of Godly character.

3. In view of your standard of living and what you've done since coming to Jacksonville, specifically the outlandish expense for an office, funds which could have done much better things for the cause of Christ, how does that square with 1 Timothy 6, about the love of money being the root of all evil? As the Bible clearly says in Matthew 6:24 'no man can serve two masters...ye cannot serve God and mammon'

4. I recall the shocking comment you made from the pulpit a while back, reagarding your house and a clear reference to Watchdog's commenting on your lavish lifestyle, how you said that the last time you checked the government said you could live anywhere you wanted. What shocked me was the arrogant way you said it and also the fact that you said it at all. I was stunned that a supposed "man of God" would say such a thing, and in the arrogant way you did. It smacked of someone caught in a wrong & trying to justify it. 1 Peter 5:5 tells us to be clothed in humility and that God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

Just these four items gives a strong testimony that you must be a liar and a hypocrite who puts money above serving God or your Christian witness. How can that not be true? How else can these be explained if not that? And my Bible says nothing good about liars and hypocrites. You don't have to explain anything to me, but you do have to answer to God. Whatever your personal feelings towards Watchdog, his questions were valid and deserved honest answers if you truly do believe the Bible you claim to teach and God you claim to serve. As R. G. Lee said, "there's a payday someday".

Watchdog, God bless you brother in Christ.

D

Anonymous said...

" Your book about pastors says that "Some pastors unintentionally separate themselves from their people by living in executive houses and driving luxury cars.

The mega church pastors I worked with all wrote books. None of the books reflected reality. Just like the belief statements of most churches do not reflect what is preached and practiced.

Matt

Anonymous said...

WD - I'm glad you changed your mind about not shutting this thing down. You've made the right decision.

Anonymous said...

WD keep it going until the whole truth is out please. FBC needs to get back to the foundation it was built on. I pray God will take back his church. This blog would not have started if concerns had been addressed. I should have know something was wrong when I joined the church. There was comments made at that time that a new christian should not have heard. No matter what God is in control and we all have to answer to him, the Pastor and leaders included.

Anonymous said...

All anon bloggers wonder how long before we get a letter to meet the committiee

Thy Peace said...

Cheryl Schatz: Women In Ministry: Reaching unity in the faith without authoritarian control

The picture above represents not only the “bride” of Christ held back and controlled, but women in the “bride” of Christ held back and controlled. It is a great concern to me that there are many in the body who think that authoritarian control is needed to keep people in line and to keep the unity of the faith. But is the removal of the ability to question those in leadership or to question secondary doctrine a necessary thing to keep the unity of the faith? Some apparently believe that questionable tactics are allowed if the end result is unity but I would like to propose that unity based on an abuse of authority produces artificial unity.

Intimidation tactics are also claimed in the case of a “Watchdog” who has publicly reported the alleged misdoing of a pastor of a large church in Jacksonville Florida.

Wade Burleson reports about the “Watchdog’s” concern for changes that were slipped into the church by-laws that allow for authoritarian control.

Anonymous said...

There is not two cents worth of difference in these preachers. Vines wanted Brunson here. Don't forget Vines at the previous PC saying "You have to pay me big bucks to be your preacher brotha". Followed by a high five with Brunson. Also Vines had the Purpose Driven Life taught at FBCJ TWICE on Sunday evenings, before he left here. Getting us ready I guess! Vines also said from the FBCJ pulpit before leaving that Rick Warren was a friend of his. No thank you I pass on all of these guys being preachers of the Gospel. The last REAL Godly preacher at FBCJ was Lindsay!!!! No that church is over.

Anonymous said...

Vines was not a godly preacher? Seriously, come on.

Some of the things Mac has done are questionable, true, but to say Vines isn't/wasn't a godly preacher is just absurd. Because he is friends with Rick Warren that automatically makes him all about the PD movement? Give me a break.

Also, Homer Lindsey was a godly man. He was a great leader, administrator and church grower. But Homer Lindsey was not a great preacher. He was below average when it came to preaching. That's not a knock on him it's just the truth. Homer was a very mediocre preacher. Great man, great leader, etc., but a mediocre preacher.

When people talk about some of the great preachers of our day Homer Lindsey is never ever mentioned, but Jerry Vines routinely is.

Anonymous said...

Sir/Lady: I don't know if you are a member of FBCJ. But I can tell you there is a great deal of "stuff" you don't know. Maybe one day!. I challenge you to find out, if possible, how many people were saved under Lindsays preaching (that you are critical of), and how many have been saved under Vines and Brunson TOGETHER. Vines likes to be thought of as a scholar. Lindsay humbled himself and the Lord blessed his preaching mightily. The BIG difference in the Lindsay ministry was that God had his hand on it in a big way. He knew that Lindsay did not become a preacher for ANY OTHER reason than because God called him. The EGO was NOT in him, which left him clean, so to speak, to serve. And this he did completely dedicated to the Lord and to getting people to Jesus Christ. Your assessment of his delivery of a sermon is taken without knowing the heart of this Godly man. I would put his ministry up against these self-serving scholar want to be's, any day of the week. God plus a humble servant equals anything God wants him to be. Man in the flesh is a poor substitute!!! No this church started dying when Lindsay did. Just take a look at it. Even the leadership has lost it's way. Vines and Brunson will never come close to Lindsay and they know it. As for Lindsay not being mentioned. Boy are you wrong. Every day I hear "Wish we had another Dr. Lindsay".

Anonymous said...

Anon. 7:29

AMEN, AMEN AND AMEN. You are right on.

Anonymous said...

One thing I don't get, is why ya'll automatically dismiss the post of any person who agrees with Dr. Brunson as "spiritually immature", "a wayward sheep" or "foolish" (and the other broad strokes ya'll have painted the people who don't agree with you). Dr. Brunson has been nothing short of amazing to me and my family. Dr. Brunson preaches the Gospel every week, unashamedly. Dr. Brunson loves our church. I love him and support him. If that makes me "a wayward sheep or immature" in your eyes, then I am ok with that. Because, Praise God, He judges what's in a persons heart.

I pray you enjoy your new church. Tell Rev. Barton hello for us.

Anonymous said...

Anon.9:04: I am so happy that you LOVE Brunson. You are exactly what he needs to succeed.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog:

I hope to read here soon what you have discovered by getting copies of the records showing how Comcast (or whichever supplier was named) gave up the identity of the accused owner of the blog.

Since we know that there was nothing illegal done on this blog site then how did FBCJ get a court order requiring the internet supplier to give up the name of the accused?

I believe this is a serious issue and we need to read about how this could happen in a law-abiding society. I don't want to believe that it's true when I hear "It's not what you know, it's who you know" but was there illegal influence used to gain access to private records?

Let us know as soon as you know something! We have a right to know if we're attending a church that would not only allow something like that to happen but apparently encourage it as well.

Anonymous said...

Hey Anon March 10, 2009 9:04 AM - thanks for your post. I am glad you love your pastor. And I am glad you stopped by the blog. Now, any thoughts or opinions on any of the abuses by Mac Brunson? What do you think of the land gift, ocean front condo, $307K land gift, nepotism, bylaw changes, trespass warnings, etc? Any comments on any of that sir?

This is why we think many of you are clueless, gullible, etc. It matters not whether you love him or not, or whether he has been "amazing" to you. These questions need answers. He needs to be "amazing" with openness and transparency.

He hasn't been "amazing" to the lady that was banned has he? What did she do wrong?

And how can we say hi to Rev. Barton for you if you won't post your name. You act as if you have some info about the WD and/or the accused, yet you read here and won't post your name? Hmmmm. Very scary down at the big church right now wouldn't you say?

Say hi to Maurilio and Deb for us. And do it nicely and with respect. :)

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 2:15

Those matters are being looked into as we speak. Progress is being made. These things can take some time to get to the bottom of. And when I have confirmed information about ISP records and court orders and phony criminal allegations, I'll share that information here with my readers.

But patience is a must. As Mac taught so eloquently last summer about the wheels of justice:

"The mills of the 'god's' grind slow, but they grind exceedingly fine" Mac Brunson 8/2/08

Anonymous said...

Matt - we all love you so please, please start a blog. Tell us at least what state you located in if not city. Again, you're the best, brother!! (no offense WD - we still pull for you, too. You're the O.G.)

Anonymous said...

"One thing I don't get, is why ya'll automatically dismiss the post of any person who agrees with Dr. Brunson as "spiritually immature", "a wayward sheep" or "foolish" (and the other broad strokes ya'll have painted the people who don't agree with you). Dr. Brunson has been nothing short of amazing to me and my family. Dr. Brunson preaches the Gospel every week, unashamedly. Dr. Brunson loves our church. I love him and support him. If that makes me "a wayward sheep or immature" in your eyes, then I am ok with that. Because, Praise God, He judges what's in a persons heart."

Here is a person who would ignore the Samaritan because the Levite priest did. And then tell us not to judge her heart because only God knows her heart.

This person has a different definition of love just as Brunson has a skewed definition of love. That is key to understanding all of this. These are the folks that scare me the most. Not the meglamaniac mega pastors but those who blindly follow, ignoring the elephant (unbiblical behavior) in the room.

Anon,

I am afraid I need to be a drive by commenter for now. It just takes too much time and energy to blog on all this. I spent way too much time on it already. I seek to affirm and encourage those who have been spiritually abused. I really do think one has to experience it first or have had an road to Damascus experience like I did in order to even begin to understand how shallow our churches are. Shallow pastors, elders, deacons, etc.

I am a recovering Pharisee.

I used to be like those we are reading about. But God decided to teach me compassion and truth the hard way. It is painful but I do recommend it.Unless we are broken, He cannot mold us into His image. It is a long process. Remember that next time you listen to one of the beat the sheep sermons. Unless the preacher has been broken and the REAL fruit is obvious, don't listen.

Some of the best preachers never went to seminary. Some do not have a church. Some may even be maintenance men. Look for the fella who looks like Matthew 5.

And..

Let the Holy Spirit teach you instead. That is what the real preacher will do. He will encourage you to seek God on your own.

Matt

Anonymous said...

"This country and world are starved for the knowledge of what is going wrong in these last days. They know something is happening but they don't know what."

- That is why Matt needs to start a blog. Few from the "inside" will open up to what they know and were witness to and the megas, pd, cr, sbc, etc, etc.. continue to get away with their deception and exploitation. And, Matt is just such a joy to read. Tremendous skills.

Anonymous said...

hey blythe,

Don't give your wisdom on this site. It is like wind just blowing by. The readers will feel it but never really get it!

Anonymous said...

Your right - we "just don't get" the bylaw changes, trespass warnings, land gifts, nepotism, and on and on...

Anonymous said...

Looks like the lawyers are now involved! How can I tell? Not a peep from John Blount and not much new from the Watchdog. This is what they call the calm before the storm. My guess is the lawyers are waiting to serve papers and take this discussion from the blog into the courts and newspapers and TV news. You are about to get the accountability and transparency you wanted.

Plain and simple...the church blew it. They over reacted and made some mistakes. Now, it will get very ugly for some key members of the "family." Just my opinion. :)

Anonymous said...

anon 10:43,

You and all the other whiners just don't get it. i mean i understand thy peace, oc and all the other lynch mob from out of town but guys like you are in the hundreds on this blog, your really the losers in all of this.

It's like standing in the middle of the road watching an on coming semi. With your better than thou attitude saying, "It's gonna hit us . . . the others don't see it but I do and it's gonna hit us." Its just not logical your as much dead as your so called "blind sheep"

OK OK lets say your so enlightened then why is your stupid self still standing in the road? MOVE! You and your buddies are due the same fate as the "blind sheep" at least they can look at their Saviour and say I was wrong.

What do you say to Him about the place you keep your children if what you see is going to happen and is happening? MOVE!

So smart your stupid! I saw the semi coming and I moved but people like you throughout this blog that see what they say they see and still stand right beside the "Blind sheep" lol . . .you have no excuse!

Way to keep your family in a church with a cloud. I'm sure your children are better off for your stance!!

honk . . . honk kkkrrrrthump

T Rex said...

I got the popcorn and cold adult beverages ready to go. No Gator football so the entertainment down at FBC will have to do.

All the McWorshippers sound strangely like Jim Jones cool-aid drinkers. They come on here professing their McLove for McDonald but never tell us about their love for the Father, Son or Holy Spirit.

Let the games begin!

T Rex said...

Breaker, Breaker Anon 11:00


So now we have attracted a semi-literate Mctrucker to the dog pound. ( no offense to all the hard working drivers). Welcome good buddy. You sound like another McLover.

Your post make semi-sense but I guess it's hard when you breath all those diesel fumes daily.

If you can't make sense, at least add a little McHumor.

Anonymous said...

Just thought I'd check to see if you were still around. Looks like you're done.

Time to stick a fork in you.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Troll alert!

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