"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Tuesday, October 21, 2008

Mac the Legalist

For your viewing pleasure, Mac explains his "legalistic list" of what he "detests". He declares he's going to get "fundamental". And he decided, of all things when he talks about separation, tells us that he detests pants that people wear below their waiste. He doesn't explain why that is bad. He doesn't use scripture to explain why he doesn't like it. He just blurts it out. This is careless, emotional, non-Spirit led preaching. Notice some of the folks in the congregation start getting worked up. They are part of the Kool Aid drinkers who have forgotten what a Spirit-led, Bible expositor preacher is like. Now we hoot and holler for a red neck popping off about how he doesn't like low riders.

More to come.

58 comments:

Thy Peace said...

For a true definition and the misery Legalism and Legalists cause, please check these two links out:

Legalism Is A Cancer on Both Ends of the Scale

Personal Opinions Given as Mandates from God

I personally feel Pastor Mac does preach Legalism.

Anonymous said...

I recall Jim Smyrl telling his elder not to criticize the youth in their dress. Why is Mac now criticizing the manner of dress. Yes, this is legalism. The pulpit is not a place to bring up your own dislikes and make others ashamed of themselves or even give thought to it being a sin. There's a good proverb concerning growing from a child to an adult. Its just a matter of time when some of the youth will leave this fad for another one...kinda like mini-skirts. I notice Mac wears his trousers below his waist, but maybe thats because of too many "Krispy Kremes".

Anonymous said...

Maybe that is why Mac lives in the gated community.."to live beside them but be separated from them".

I hate to say it but anyone thinking of running for public office who sits week after week listening to this stuff would be in trouble.

Does Mac think that the A team is separated from other consult groups. Sounds like the A group wants the church to fit right into the world...

Anonymous said...

Let me tell you something!! I have a pet peeve concerning petite women wearing short knit dresses skin tight to church. What kind of example is that? Why don't we hear more about this subject? I say the boys even with their pants hanging off themselves is less offensive than short skirts in church. Which one is the most suggestive? You got it!!! I'm not legalistic,I'm just for more moderate decorum in church. Yes, and I'm a lot older than Jim. So do not criticize your elders learn from us. We've been around the block once or twice.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Our leadership has very little practical wisdom. When I say "leadership" I mean Brunson and Smyrl - they are running the show.

Just 4 days before this gem from Mac, Smyrl preached on Wed how wrong it is to point out the poor dress of some of our youth. Smyrl related a story about how an elderly man in the church told Jim that we should have higher dress standards for youth, in that they are wearing ratty jeans, flip flops, and tight, short skirts. Smyrl told us he put the man in his place by telling him that HE is worldly dresser, since he is conforming to the world by wearing slacks, collared shirt and soled shoes. How wacked is that logic?

Scene 2: Here comes Mac, the bull in a china shop who can't control his tongue. Mac is a regular Joe Biden. Now he DOES berate young people for wearing the pants too low, but not out of Godly wisdom, out of angry, "fundamental" (his word), personal taste. This is the worst form of legalism. I'm going to speak with authority on what is improper dress, I won't explain to you why it is wrong, or what IS proper dress, I'm just going to tear into you and tell you what you have is not to my liking. It shows an insensitivity, a lack of spiritual wisdom and maturity that is breath taking.

So Smyrl is for the jeans and flips and anything else the youth wears, and thinks a nicely dressed elderly man is "wordly". Now Mac sets the standard of how bad low pants are because he detests them.

Where is the godly, loving leadership that will open the Bible, and set forth a godly standard for our kids instead of present immature, confusing, angry contradictory messages?

And we ain't seen nothin' yet.

Anonymous said...

After reviewing this blog two scripture references came to mind:

Ephesians 5:29-32
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Matthew 18:1-17
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church


In light of scriptures my first question is did you follow Matthew 18 and speak directly to your Pastor and leadership as prescribed by God's word?

Secondly, how will you justify this blog to God on your day of judgment?

Honestly, the answer will be more about you than the object of your frustration.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Great scriptures.

The first one: I would recommend that this be applied to the angry preaching of Mac Brunson.

The 2nd one: It has been done, multiple times by multiple people.

I'm glad you're worried about how I will answer to God about the blog. Actually, if I were Mac I would be much, much more worried about how I will answer for the careless preaching and my lavish lifestyle on the backs of God's people, and my legalistic preaching and the harshness I used in pastoring the sheep. Mac is the one who will have MUCH more to answer for than I as it relates to FBC Jax and topics of the blog. Dare I say that God is more interested in Mac's treatment of the church and the sheep than he is by one of the sheep shining light on the antics of the pastor. In fact, the Lord may well show Mac the blog and say, "Hey Donald, you even had a blog that was attempting to hold you accountable - why didn't you listen?"

Anonymous said...

Thank you posting my comments.

However I did find your answers all about the object of your frustration and not you.

Both scriptures deal directly with personal accountability. And while being concerned about your pastor's judgment is admirable, ultimately you will be accountable for you.

While I have heard your pastor preach before and understand what you are stating, my question is how will YOU answer God in light of Ephesians?

Matthew 18 does not generalize and say "multiple people" it says YOU. So did YOU speak directly with your pastor? And if so were the secondary and progressing steps followed in accordance to Matthew 18? If not do you think God will excuse you by saying "Well since others did so you didn't need to follow scripture"?

I agree these are great scriptures in which if more believers and churches followed how much more effective would the bride of Christ be.

This is not intended to be an attack but I believe in "Speaking the truth in love" and I struggle to see that biblical principle applied here. In fact I see the approaches of your pastor ("angry preaching" for example)that you have criticize, being used here by you and others.

Anonymous said...

WD, anon 5:09 is not anon 10:01 from the last post, though it should sound familiar to you. As he pointed out, you are still deflecting. The question remains, have YOU confronted your brother in Christ. If the answer is no, then you are in sin, and no, that isn;t me making a sweeping judgment, and don't play the victim martyr card either. It really is that simple. No wonder the name of Christ is a reproach to the world. Jesus said they should know us by our love for one another. Is this love in any form? And what does this blog say to the world about Christ?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I don't mind people proclaiming that I'm in sin and that unless I go and meet with Mac in accordance with Mat 18 I'm sinning. I've been told much worse than that in the past year.

But to say that this blog is a reason for the reproach of the name of Christ is absolutely laughable. It is abusive, greedy preachers like Mac Brunson that cause the reproach, not the people pointing out the abuses.

Mac is financially abusing our church, and I'll keep blogging about it.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:50, you continually miss the point. Not only were Brunson's comments inappropriate about the apparel most know identifies with African Americans, they are inflammatory. Image the outrage and condemnation that would be heaped upon Brunson and his church should the outside media and persons such as Jesse Jackson, Jeremiah Wright, Al Sharpton, Takes, NAACP and others listening to this tirade and humiliation of their own. It could result in actions that would scorn the pastor and church, thus damaging the true church of the Holy Spirit.

The Watchdog may not always be right, but he is not in the pulpit at Jax and other venues where he preaches an elitist menu and disdain concerning others that do not fit his mold of acceptability.

So, please get a grip. I am sincerely glad you are not my pastor. You are full of insincerity in a calling to minister in God's name, in my opinion.

Please remember that church members come to accept the policies, practices and teachings in their church as they drift into bondage by the brainwashing techniques used by church pastors and officials. Keep remembering Jim Jones and his legacy.

Anonymous said...

During the past two days, I have noticed a couple comments that smell of Trey's friends defending Dad while he is away, as Dad and others instructed.

IMHO.

Anonymous said...

This legalism stuff is really the future problem in the SBC. Read Wade Burelsons blog. Re: another preacher named White that is really into legalism (see his comments on birth control). We are Baptist not Catholics, but I believe we are being "pushed" toward Ecumenalism fast. As to Brunson legalism, it's just getting started especially if he follows SBC trends. Heaven help us.

Annon: of 4:40 and 5:09: The problem is the preacher won't speak to US. He is above that. He isn't accountable to anyone. He just yells from the pulpit. GET IT PLEASE. Over and over WD has related that people can't get this man to talk about anything unless he has a "bully pulpit" when he is preaching (?) and no one can yell back. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? People have tried to talk to him. So, Mac himself nullifys Matt. l8, as workable. Matt. l8 is correct but you can't make someone adhere to it if they don't want to, and he doesn't want to. So, YOU talk to the preacher and let us know how it works out.

WD 3:ll and 5:55: You stated that there is very little practicle wisdom in Mac and Smyrls leadership. My opinion is there is NO wisdom. They operate off the cuff. They say whatever sounds good (to them) at the moment. There is no consistency in their remarks. They fervently mean one thing one moment and fervently take the opposite opinion the next. Confusing to say the least. You can't follow them. You really don't know what the believe at any given moment. It's a mess, and getting worse everyday.

As to legalism they SCREAM about, while THEY are the legalist: You just mention that you are a KJV only person and see how fast they throw you to the wolves.

WD: Good for you. Keep going , we need you.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe that Mac goes out of town (NC) and preaches to others that FBC is legalist, and then turns into a major elitest legalist himself when it suits him. But maybe there is a "game plan" in the SBC that pastors are starting to follow. Who knows. If I were to use initials to describe all that is happening at FBC now, I would call it BS!!!!!! No not what your thinking, Bad Stuff.

RM said...

I am not defending Mac or Watchdog but I can nearly guarantee you that if the Watchdog called Mac's office and told him who he was and that he was the owner of this blog, that Mac would make time to meet with him personally.

It might be worth a try--and maybe even help to save your church.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

He would meet with me all right. And the "saving the church" would come in the form of "get rid of this guy from the church".

And what would we talk about?

Get real.

Anonymous said...

RM,

You are right. And no Watchdog, Mac wouldn't just say "get rid of him."

He would personally take the time to talk with you Watchdog and discuss the issues with you. I think you should try this Watchdog. He is not the man you think he is.

Great idea RM.

Thy Peace said...

All that will happen, if Pastor Mac found out who WD is, they will kick him out of the church and make him an example. Probably ridicule him and his family in the church too.

Do not deceive your self here. All the supporters of Pastor Mac will want to draw blood here.

And it would be a travesty. Nothing good will come out of it.

Anonymous said...

Anom 8:19

You have to be so far elementary to not have historically resourced the blogs here from inception. Many attempts have been made to communicate as you ascribed; yet the individuals were subjected to distain and totaly abandoment by the staff, directed by the pastor. Why would they continue to further accountability without the acceptanc of their input?

Anonymous said...

WD,
This anon 4:40 & 5:09.
Two quick clarifications: this is my first day posting here & I know no one at FBCJ.

Understanding biblical instructions leads me to agree with RM. If you have made the effort to reach out and your pastor will not meet with you currently he is wrong. However, someone else's sin does not justify any sin you might commit. And now since you have brought light to this problem then you should use it to step forward. There is no biblical basis for believers to correct sin or criticize other Christians from the darkness of anonymity.

If you made the offer mentioned by RM to reach out to your pastor you would be doing the scriptural correct action. If he responded sinfully then that is on him. Those who have eyes will see. But scripture calls us to do the biblical correct action regardless of how someone might respond.

This is about trusting God when you do the right thing. God honors, protects, and lifts up those who trust Him by following His word (multiple references if needed). Either you trust Him or you don't.

Anonymous said...

From Anon something, you'll know. WD, you said "But to say that this blog is a reason for the reproach of the name of Christ is absolutely laughable. It is abusive, greedy preachers like Mac Brunson that cause the reproach, not the people pointing out the abuses". I have to stop and consider that you you must not have meant to say that. Obviously you did not mean to say that the world would look to your site, and your comments (regardless of what is going on at your church) and so, "Oh, Christ looks great, sign me up"! Certainly you meant he isn't a reproach in your eyes due to this site. Just to point out, I have said nothing about the issues that you have raised, I could since they seem to be major accusations, but I do not know the facts, therefore I do not enter the fray. So all I have been pointing out is that you might want to consider, and I know you don't think it remotely possible, that this isn;t the most God honoring, biblical way to approach this.

Also, someone else said, "So, please get a grip. I am sincerely glad you are not my pastor. You are full of insincerity in a calling to minister in God's name, in my opinion". I am assuming that you are basing these remarks / accusations on my comment regarding praying for WD and the church. If so, I would politely point out that I fail at many things, but when I say I am going to pray, I make every effort to do just that, and I did. I can say that I certainly am glad however, that you will not be meeting me as judge when I die either. Plus your statement is alomist incomprehensible, what were you even saying? What do you know about my call to serve the church from my suggestions that someone apply Sripture to their own lives as well as others?



So, please get a grip. I am sincerely glad you are not my pastor. You are full of insincerity in a calling to minister in God's name, in my opinion.

Anonymous said...

Shame on Dr. Brunson. Shame on him for preaching that Christians are supposed to be different. Shame on him for preaching that a true Christian shouldn't do the things the world is doing. Shame, shame, shame.

Ok. Now that I have my sarcasm out of the way. Let me give my thoughts on this 2 minute clip you have taken completely out of the context of his sermon. Just because Dr. Brunson says that there are certain things Christians shouldn't do, does not make him a legalist. He was making a point in this sermon (as far as I can tell) that a Christians life is supposed to be different than the life of a non-believer. The actual definition of legalism is this : Obeying laws, or a certain list of rulesis the main principle of redemption, not faith in the grace of God. Did Dr. Brunson say "Do these things, so that God will love you more" or anything like that? I certainly didn't hear it.

The Scriptures teach that we are aliens, we are not of this world. We shouldn't behave like the world, or do the things that the world does. Christ's substitutionary death gave us the ablility to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. What you have done here is totally taken Dr. Brunson's words out of context and used them to fit your agenda.

And as to your comment about the pants......are you really trying to imply racism? I certainly hope you are better than that.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:10,

Nobody has personally confronted the pastor about these issues. Watchdog hasn't and all the other anonymous dissenters haven't.
Sending an email does not count! Don't say there have been many attempts etc. to deal with the issues. There haven't been. Emailing is not the right approach in these situations. Man up and go face to face with the people you think are responsible for the issues you have.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

No problem preaching that Christians should be different. But to then extend that to pointing out about wearing pants below the waist as being an example of conforming to the world is utter nonsense. Notice he says "certain kinds of drinks", and "certain movies"...and does NOT get particular about those, but does get particular about pants. And he does it arrogantly in the context of what HE DETESTS. I don'g give a rip what he detests. As a preacher he should lovingly teach people about standards of dress, why those standards are important, and that standards don't imply obedience or disobedience. But I don't expect you to see that this kind of preaching is arrogant and very non-helpful. Those people who have his same tastes will hoot and holler, the youth who wear ratty jeans and flip flops will like it because THEY don't wear those jeans below the waiste so they can imply from his little tirade that their dress is appropriate. If he's going to address standards of dress, he should do it calmly and clearly, to rightly apply it to everyone.

But that would require him to slow down, be loving, and worst of all he would have to do it without a history example.

So I'll continue to point out our Jeremiah Brunson nonsensical preaching.

Next up is Mac's declaration of how God is working to raise gas prices and God is working to wreck our economy.

Anonymous said...

Anon, 9:45

Let some of the previously mentioned groups identified answer to you remarks. Racism was implied.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

"But to say that this blog is a reason for the reproach of the name of Christ is absolutely laughable. It is abusive, greedy preachers like Mac Brunson that cause the reproach, not the people pointing out the abuses".

Yes, I did mean to say that.

Sorry, but Mac is the one with the power and the one abusing his position.

And the city sees it. And the SBC sees it.

They see him living in a million dollar home.

They know that he accepted a quarter million dollar gift from Collins because its public information

They know he and his wife drive expensive cars and not pick ups as we were told.

They know he missed 5 of 7 meetings on the mayors crime prevention meeting.

The SBC knows he is selling advertising space at the pastors convention.

The SBC and our city knows that he put a commercial for Collins Builders smack dab in the middle of a sermon, and it is there dad that gave him the $250,000 piece of land.

The SBC knows that Mac slandered Sheri Klouda from his pulpit, and never apologized to her or to our church.

So it is Mac who is doing the disgracing of the church.

So don't blame me. Blame Mac Brunson. But if you must blame me, that is fine, I can take it.

Anonymous said...

But I am assuming you were ok with Dr. Lindsay talking about how he hated alcohol? About how he couldnt stand Jax Liquors?

And Im assuming you were ok with Dr. Vines and Dr. Lindsay not allowing people to go to the movies, regardless of the rating?

Im assuming you were ok with Deacons having to wear suits?

Legalism as been rampant at FBC for a long time, but apparently, now it is bad.

And as far as your comment about "I don't expect you to see this kind of preaching as arrogant and non-helpful", please explain that. Because you don't know who I am.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Racism was implied? It was pointed out on the video that it is blacks who primarily are the ones that wear that style of pants. And certainly no one in the mostly white church is wearing those...and he makes no case that they are "wrong" or "sinful", just that he "detests" them. No helpful explanation, just an arrogant, "fundamental" declaration...the pastor detests them, and by God that should be good enough for us, right?

Anonymous said...

"So it is Mac who is doing the disgracing of the church."

If you believe that then my last post (9:22) is correct in its premise.

There is a reason why God's ways as prescribed by the Bible work and the world's ways ultimately fail.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Vines and Lindsay took strong stands on alcohol, but get this. Are you ready? They lovingly explained why they did. They explained the evil of alcohol. Homer lovingly pleaded with men to rid their homes of alcohol. They even attempted to point to scripture to make their point about why it is best to avoid using alcohol.

If you're comparing a preacher consistently, lovingly telling people to avoid use of alchol, with some arrogant preacher telling us that he detests a certain style of pants, you are crazy.

Anonymous said...

This video should be shared with the world!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Come Brunson defenders. Come one, come all. Defend the pastor as best you can!

While you're here, please defend the slander of Sheri Klouda.

Please defend the airing of a commercial for the sons of Collins who gave him $250k when he arrived!

Please defend the bylaw changes that he has never once explained to his congregation!

Please defend the asking for $1 million for repairs when we've given $40 million since he came but he's been spending it on a new school and his TV time and over spending on missions.

Please defend his "hotbed of legalism" comment in NC.

Please defend him declaring that God says he is working to raise gas prices, and that God says he is working to wreck our economy to punish us all.

Or, just attack the messenger. That's a whole lot easier.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

The next two videos will be doozys. Stand by.

Mac "Jeremiah" Brunson.

Anonymous said...

While you're here, please defend the slander of Sheri Klouda.

-The truth is the truth. It wasn't slander.

Please defend the airing of a commercial for the sons of Collins who gave him $250k when he arrived!

-You have a problem with gifts. And you think that in order to receive a gift, it takes a little bit of quid pro quo on the receivers end to accept the gift.

Please defend the bylaw changes that he has never once explained to his congregation!

-He didn't have to explain them.

Please defend the asking for $1 million for repairs when we've given $40 million since he came but he's been spending it on a new school and his TV time and over spending on missions.

-Maybe if you and your supporters had given in July, we wouldn't be down $900k.

Please defend his "hotbed of legalism" comment in NC.

-It's true. The dissenters are legalists. You are the lawmaker.

Please defend him declaring that God says he is working to raise gas prices, and that God says he is working to wreck our economy to punish us all.

-Mac didn't say God is working to wreck our economy. He said God is allowing everything to happen.

Anonymous said...

I have in the past defended my pastor on the Sheri Klouda issue but you did not post it for all to see. So i will try again. I heard this sermon in person and on your blog. In the sermon Dr. Brunson quoated her LAWYER as saying that she regretted her decision to sue. Not She said it but the Lawyer said she told him that. SO I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE MY PASTOR OVER A LAWYER OR A WATCHDOG!!

Anonymous said...

Have you actually read the by-laws? They are biblical by-laws.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

The truth is the truth about Sheri Klouda? He lied and said that she told the court that her lawsuit was unscriptural.

That was a blatant lie out of hell.

He lied.

And he knows he lied.

And you perpetuate the lie.

"Dissenters are legalists". Lie again. That's two lies you have there. Good job.

Yep, we're "down 900k" because of the dissenters. Not Mac's fault, its the dissenters fault! Beautiful.

I'll give you one thing: he didn't have to explain the bylaw changes. It just shows how arrogant he and the lay leaders are.

And boy are they paying a heavy price for their arrogance.

And it will only get worse.

Thy Peace said...

From my perspective, it would have been helpful to me, had Pastor Mac preached in the past year in the same style as David Allen did.

I only came to know David Allen in the past month. I only heard his sermons three times. Initially I was very skeptical of him, because he was close PP and what PP did to Sheri Klouda. But as I listened to his sermons, there was so much depth and subtility to his teachings. He was fleshing out meanings from the scriptures from so many different angles. It was amazing.

Now, why can't Pastor Mac do this?

I have been listening to Pastor Mac for the past year. Every evening I would spend at least 2 hours going through his podcasts. I feel so puny in my scripture learning compared to WD here.

WD here was raised in solid scriptural and expository style of preaching for more than 20 to 30 years. (I am guessing of the time WD spent with Vines and Lindsay Jr here).

If this is the way Pastor Mac preaches, 20 years from now, all the young people listening to him and grow up with him, will be puny in their scripture learning. There will be no depth to their Christian walk of life or learning.

To me, this is very sad.

I know, there were some sermons of Pastor Mac that were good. But they were not many.

So I am hoping, Pastor Mac will forget all this theatrics (Please see WD comments a post or two ago on this subject), do less history, focus on the Scripture, Start, begin, and end with Scripture. Pastor Mac should get rid of this "theme" based preaching. While he is at it, let him get rid of Maurilio too.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

OK, would you believe your pastor's words over Sheri Klouda's?

I posted her reply in my blog.

And her own words made Mac to be a liar.

And readers, the blog has been swamped by Brunson supporters who are wishing to now defend Brunson by dragging Vines and Lindsay through the mud.

They want to lecture me about saying things about Brunson, but these same hypocrites want to use the blog to defend Brunson by tearing down the previous pastors.

This is classic Brunsonism. He loves to rake us over the coals as looking to the past, but when it suits his own personal agenda he has no problem trotting out the tapes of Homer, SR.

You just can't take it. People at FBC Jax are wising up to the abuses at FBC Jax, and you must tear down the previous pastors because you can't defend Brunson.

Shameful.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

And by the way...taking a lie someone else says, and then repeating it without confirming that its a lie, still makes you to be a liar.

Mac could have picked up the phone and in 5 minutes confirmed whether the lawyer's story was right about Klouda. But he didn't want to do that, he believed the lawyer.

So Mac is a liar, and he can't bring himself to apologize to Sheri Klouda or our church for using our pulpit to slander a good woman.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Have to correct another lie of the Brunson defenders.

Mac quoted not Klouda's lawyer, but he quoted PATTERSON'S LAWYER.

Got that Anon? It was Paige Patterson's lawyer that told Mac that lie. And then Mac repeated the lie FROM THE PULPIT. It was a disgrace.

And he just can't apologize. Can't do it. That would take some measure of humbleness, which he can't muster.

Thy Peace said...

What PP and others did to Sheri Klouda is much bigger than Klouda herself. There is and has been a pattern to diminish and kick out ALL women from teaching, leadership and administrative positions allover SBC and IMB. This misogyny has to STOP. Please see the other posts and their references to links to where these abuses have been documented.

Lot of women in the SBC are suffering, because some men in the leadership of SBC are using their personal preferences and equating this with the Word of God, and then trying to force this on the SBC as a whole.

This is much bigger problem than just what happened to Klouda.

And the travesty of Klouda is: Pastor Mac was a then pastor to her. Klouda was forced to sell her own blood to pay for expenses, to support her aisling husband, who is still sick.

But my point is, what happened to Klouda is very small, compared to what the leadership of SBC is doing to women in the SBC.

Wake up everyone.

I am quoting Bob Cleveland, a commentator on Pastor Wade's blog here:
"To paraphrase Martin Niemoeller,

First, they came for the ones who spoke in tongues. I didn't speak up, because I don't do that.

Then, they came for those who hadn't been baptized in an SBC Church (yes I know the real deal). I had been, so I didn't speak up.

Then they came for the Calvinists. I'm not, so I didn't speak up.

Then they came for those who didn't sign the BF&M. I had, so I didn't speak up.

Then they came for those who used birth control. We don't, so I didn't speak up.

Then they came for me. And there wasn't anybody left to speak up."

Anonymous said...

Another thing that greedy, selfish Dr. Brunson does is investing in Seminary students better than Dr. Vines ever did.

I mean it was so selfish of him to give away copies of his book (btw, i know what your going to say. dont jump all over his book being hypocritical, that argument is so tired) to seminary students.

It so selfish of him to respond to every email and every concern i have ever emailed him with.

It is so wrong of him to preach his heart out every Sunday.

We are just cursed as a church.

(sarcasm ran thick on that post, sorry)

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Yep, "preach his heart out".

So does Jeremiah Wright.

Every Sunday.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Be sure to highlight in the book that Brunson gives you all the things that he says YOU should do and not do as a pastor, but he himself doesn't obey.

Maybe you could get him to sign the page where he says "Guard against greed, it will do you in"

Have him put a big "Amen" and his initials next to the part where he tells pastors not to live in "executive homes".

Anonymous said...

I am getting so tired of the anons who think that meeting with Mac will produce a wonderful happy meeting of the minds. First of all, normal people cannot access Dr. Mac. His home is in a gated community. His phone number is unlisted. He is hardly ever at church. Normal people do not get appointments with him.

And for the incredibly clueless people who think Mac would not throw anyone out of the church we could start a list with people that have been given the public support from Mac and the boot from him when the cameras were turned off.

Anonymous said...

I just love how all of a sudden, the Pastor living in a gated community (Dr. Vines did), and having an ulisted phone number (Dr. Vines did) and "hardly being at church" (Dr. Vines was gone alot) is a problem.

Why don't we admit our real problem with Dr. Brunson: He is not Dr. Lindsay and Dr. Vines. There. That was easy.

Personally, I don't really care what ya'll say on this blog. I was bored tonight and felt like commenting on here. Ya'll are cheap entertainment, I will give you that.

The fact is this, watchdog will continue to blog, continue to be sarcastic, continue to be antagonistic and post his opinions on here. And while he does that, the 10 people who support him and agree with him will continue to be his "amen section".

In the mean time, the rest of us will continue to love our pastor, support our pastor and serve our Church as though we are serving God. I personally am thankful for Dr. Brunson. While I personally don't agree with everything the Church is doing, the fact is that God brought him here, and he is doing something good at our church.

It will take time, but once all the dead weight church members leave, this church is going to do something amazing. It just takes time. But he has my support, as well as the support of 99% of the people there.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

No sarcasm here Anon. Only sadness. Posts like yours make me realize there is no hope of Mac humbling himself and that our church faces incredible struggle ahead. Not because of the WD or dissenters, but because of Mac's poor leadership. It falls on him, not on anyone else. He and his Kool Aid Krowd believe that the criticism he faces comes from recalcitrants, from legalists, and from people who are worshipping Vines and Lindsay. I can only speak for myself and tell you that is absolutely NOT true - but I do understand that Brunson and his close inner circle MUST believe this about me and others. But I am absolutely NOT a legalist, and I do not look back at Vines and Lindsay as the glory days that we must somehow return to in order to be what God wants us to be. My point has been and continues to be: wherever it is that Mac leads us, he is going to have to humble himself and address concerns that remain unaddressed.

But your post shows me that Brunson is dug in. We shall see.

How sad also that you are believing the lie put forth by Brunson that the church will move forward once they get rid of us "dead weight". How is that for leadership: "hey, things aren't going too well, giving is down, the buildings are falling apart, but just wait...once we can weed out these recalcitrants and get them out of here, THEN things will really start happening." But the watchdog has warned...all the while, as our church struggles, Mac will be building his wealth, strengthening his national brand, and positioning himself for the next post-camel ride position. And if it doesn't work out, and it turns out that the "dead weight" was about 1/2 of the church and his plans for the school falter...he'll be A-OK, and we'll all be left holding the bag and the joke will be on us. Just giving you fair warning.

So get ready church: Brunson and Smyrl will continue to divide the church, pitting members against each other. Not seeking to unify, not trying to be open, honest, humble - you know, servant leadership...no, they have their agenda, they will push it aggressively. And they will demonize their opposition.

One last thing: as far as getting rid of all the "dead weight"....to get all of this dead weight out Mac and his band of trustees are going to have to crank up the engine on that discipline committee, because many people, including myself, are not going anywhere anytime soon. Better crank it up, get us before the church, and call for a vote. And we'll be blogging about it all along.

Anonymous said...

Healthy Teams Have:
Solid relationships;
Excellent communication;
Effective processes;
Accepted leadership;
Clear roles;
Common purpose.

Role of the Team Leader When Things Are Going Well:
Stay focused on mission;
Match strengths to tasks;
Serve the team while the team serves its tasks;
Adjust practices to achieve maximum results;
Congratulate diversity;
Resolve conflict, maintain open communication.


Dysfunctional Teams Have:
Absence of trust;
Fear of conflict;
Lack of commitment;
Avoidance of accountability;
Inattention to results.

Role of the Team Leader When Things Are Not Going Well:
Be human;
Demand debate;
Force clarity and closure;
Confront difficult issues;
Focus on outcomes.


Any organization or its leaders can SAY teams exist; but only groups which possess the characteristics of teams actually ARE teams. Only teams can achieve exceptional results. The city of Jacksonville, with or without knowing it, needs for the Christian congregations existing there to function as high performance teams--for the sake of the Smiths, the Jones, the Garcias and others who presently are going to Hell but who can go to Heaven after believing in the Jesus Christ that healthy churches come to tell them about.

FBCJax has a chance to be a team, but its leadership--both paid and unpaid--will need to step up to address matters and re-focus on purpose. Not every member of a really large church must be gotten on board the team in order for the congregation to see success; but ethical/effective/efficient leadership cannot in good conscience let unresolved issues persist without addressing those issues personally and bravely.

No congregation needs a chicken for its pastor, or a brood of chickens for its ministry staff. Life is too short, death is too certain, eternity is too long, and obeying the Great Commission is too critical NOT to remain focused always on evangelistic ministry.

"Extinction" is one conscious approach to ending undesired behavior. If that's the practice now by FBC's leadership, it isn't working (not that the behavior this blogsite exhibits actually is undesired--it's just undesired by the pastoral staff). Dealing with the matter face-to-face until it's resolved is the mature way. FBCJax's leaders either need to fuction maturely or stop advertising the congregation to the public as if citizens of Jacksonville will find a mature church when its visited by them.

IMHO.

Anonymous said...

WD - it looks like your "10 supporters" are coming from all over the United States according to your links to the map of visitors and your live feed of who is accessing the blog.

But if I were a Brunson supporter, I too would try to minimize the "supporters" of WD to only 10. But again, that is not logical. How can those 10 people cause us to be $900,000 short of our "emergency needs?" How can those 10 cause us to be millions behind in our budget?

Mac supporters...why does mac play audiotape of Dr. Lindsay, and refer to Dr. Lindsay's chest of joash, and talk and send a letter out about how much he misses Shirley Lindsay, ONLY during stewardship emphasis?

And Mac supporters who have recently chimed in...I say YOU are the ones that have only one or two supporters that come on here. YOU don't like anonymous emails (you say they "dont count" - where is that in scripture) yet you post anonymously here. Put YOUR names on your posts in support of Mac you cowards. Yes cowards...you know your words cannot be defended and you will be asked to do so here. You are "drive-by" mac supporters.

Thanks for reading and stopping by. And keep giving to Mac. The economy is tough and those tickets to Europe cost more due to airline rising costs this year.

You guys are clowns. "Thinking themselves wise, they became as fools!" I didn't say it, its IN YOUR BIBLE. And Jimmy Smyrl is your Clown Prince!

Anonymous said...

Let's see. Some old friends have decided to make the Matthew 18 argument again. Don't forget, if my anonymous email had been answered, I would not be reading or commenting here at all. So I guess all this is not about Matthew 18 at all. It is about playing by the rules of those in power. For example, if I differed from Saddam Hussein, I would have had to go to him personally or my complaints were invalid and "don't count?" Sure, others and their families were beheaded that publicly differed with him, but I still must go personally myself to discuss his abuses with him. NOT! Let's get down to ther real and only reason this blog continues to be so widely read and needed: The arrogant, pompous abuser of his position as pastor WILL, you hear me, he WILL, respond to mine and others anonymous emails OR...I (we) will blog until he does so.

Does that simplify it enough for all of you?

Anonymous said...

WD - speaking of concerns sent to the pastor that "don't count" - if you are any of the following, YOUR support of Mac doesn't "count" here:

1) family member
2) on the payroll
3) rec'd free commercial during sunday morning worship service
4) are friends of any of the above
5) cannot defend your positions you state on this blog when other bloggers seek to engage your responses.

So that pretty much rules out most of your recent anon bloggers who want to discuss Matthew 18 or question anonymous emails instead of discussing any of the abuses, lies, and facts about Team Brunson discussed here.

Anonymous said...

For those new to this blog that have decided to ask us about matthew 18. This has been addressed over and over again. Confronting this pastor according to matthew 18 gets you black listed, lied about, visited by deacons, and silenced by lay leaders and staff. If that doesn't work, you are asked to leave the church. If you try to fulfill matt 18 by some genuine concerns emailed anonymously (to avoid the above) then Dr. Vines comes in and spits at you.

No my new friends, blogging is the only way to get heard in this atmosphere. Jesus always provides a way. Thank you Lord Jesus for this blog. Amen and Amen.

And amazingly, some two plus years later...some readers still think the main issue at FBC Jax is the bloggers. Incredible!

Anonymous said...

Hey Trey and Jim - why don't you boys come on here and engage these issues like men? Support your dad and your boss, respectively, by having an answer to these issues that are being followed all over the United States?

Have you been told not to by the tyrant dictator that pays your salary and can dismiss either of you "men" at his whim and fancy?

Come on fellas, don't be afraid. Jim, you even started a blog that no one reads, so why not comment here where at least you will get some readers and feedback on your pontifications?

I know, I know. You are just following orders. To bad, so sad.

And Jim, why no deep writings on your blog about biblical tithing? Why nothing from Mac or you in the way of exegeting the scriptures, Old Testament and New, regarding Christian giving? Your relying on Homer Lindsays Sr and Jr during stewardship emphasis spoke volumes not only about your view of the scripture on this topic, but also on your views of yourselves. You ought to be ashamed to draw a salary for such garbage Jim. But I know, the economy is tough and you have a family to support. So march on to Mac's drummer.

Anonymous said...

Hey Executive Pastor and Director of Special Projects - you have been called out. Are you defenseless to respond? Surely your responses can bear public scrutiny? If not, then stay silent. Or post anonymously. Or have your friends post for you. Whatever!

Anonymous said...

Brunson defender l:l8 AM: If you don't care don't blog. Your remarks show that you are obviously young and spiritually immature. You weren't around when this was a loving church that lived and worked for the Lord. The sad thing in all of this is, Jesus has been left out!!! Brunson has made himself the "head of the church", somewhat like a pope. As a matter of fact the whole convention is closet Catholic, and getting more and more so daily. Legalism is rampant in the SBC today. The mega preachers think they are omnipotent, not to be questioned, critized, or made accountable in ANYTHING. They come into churches that have been built by Godly christians through the years, and it's a hostile takeover. You will comply and do what you are told. You will not complain, raise a question, or in any way show displeasure or you are OUT PRONTO. Your name is slandered, you are shunned by staff and others that live in the shadow of the preacher. This HAS happened over and over. Does this sound like a church where Jesus is preeminent? I have been in this church for many years. I can tell you it is dead now. Jesus is the life blood of a church. Without HIM you have a social meeting place. GOD help us!!!!

The preacher brought himself here, not God. The preacher and the lame pulpit committee, who were not looking out for the church. That is unless you ascribe to Brunsons view that God is punishing us with bad stuff. If you believe in that view then maybe we are being punished with Brunson.

You say l:l8 AM, that Brunson is doing good at the church. Maybe for himself and family. I would disagree. I would not say running off a very large portion of Godly members through above stated policies is doing good. Advocating getting rid of people. We have spent years and years trying to get people INTO the church, getting them to come to Jesus. And this group talks about getting rid of People!!! How Godly is that??? They only want people that agree with them. PITIFUL, you will answer to God one day. You think because people are older, they have worn out their usefulness. You have no respect for the work, love and service they rendered for years. Just get rid of the "dead weight" I believe you said. You sir/mame are very rude and ungrateful. You nor Brunson would have a church had these people not sacrificed to have one. They built a good church you all took it over and are busy draining it spiritually, and destroying it. The people that have had their church stolen out from under them are heart broken and to get the type of rude response from you and the callous treatment from the preacher and staff is truly sad. Go ahead boot out the people but remember they take their money with them. That is a problem isn't it. But the money is all that is of interest now, isn't it. We will let you stay if you "pay good". How do you get rid of the people and keep their money?

WD, you say Mac will have to humble himself. Many say TOO LATE!!!!!!!

We are truly at a "falling away" of the church. This one sure has fallen and fast. I have no problem in people starting their own Purpose Driven show (church). But don't come in to a Godly church like this one WAS, and take it over and destroy it. But then it was already a rich church, the money was there already. So take it, right? But remember God is not mocked. He sees it all. People will answer to HIM one day.

Lord, please have mercy on your children.

gabriella422001 said...

two thoughts.
all this talk about dead weight church members and toxic people....please try to remember that behind every "toxic person" with a problem lies a real human being with a soul that counts to God, even if it doesn't count in the church.

and....watchdog, you consistently miss the point that on judgment day you aren't going to be able to point to Dr. Brunson or anyone else. It wasn't your place to sit in judgment on him or this church, and again, if you disagree you need to leave and trust GOD to handle things as He is the ONLY ONE who makes fair judgments, and I KNOW thats out of the Bible. Even I get that, slacker and idiot savant though I may be. TRUST GOD to right the wrongs...your blog might only be bringing judgment on YOU...

Anonymous said...

Three main reasons churches can't reach the people they want to reach or keep the people they do reach:

1. Normal migration/attrition (people move in/out/around cities; can't control this one);
2. Low quality ministry (have the ministry, but do it poorly; control by: remaining "Simple Church");
3. Unresolved internal issues (manage only--not resolve--until folks leave; the core will finally go elsewhere for peace; control by: being mature spiritually, emotionally, intellectually).


Right or wrong, one side or both, the result always is the same: decline--decline that is preventable, shameful, and judged (Revelation 22:12). First Baptist churches can die, too, or simply be rendered fairly useless. We all know that pastors can become ineffective in terms of their leadership (don't both like them and trust them, not going anywhere with them).

If no one there will "man-up," I'd hate to be FBCJax in the future; its legacy and $2 will buy it a cup of coffee at the Fox! (Not a slam, so don't bother with negative replies; the right thing to do is bigger than anyone blogging here, no matter the cause for concern.) God bless you, EVERYBODY, as your try to figure out how to do the right thing you already know to do--anonymously?


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