"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Saturday, October 22, 2011

New Minister at FBC Jax Piously Tells Church Members: Preacher's Salary "Ain't None of Yo' Business"

Danny Crosby is the new FBC Jax minister hired around the time of Jim Smyrl's departure. He is preaching on Sunday nights when Mac is out of town.

He is doing a good job of taking it to the church members. In the video below he tells a story of how he put a woman in her place after he overheard her criticizing her pastor about his salary. In the middle of his story he tells the faithful Sunday night attenders at First Baptist Jacksonville about their need to know the pastor's salary:

"I'm not gonna ask ya, I'm gonna tell ya: It ain't none of yo' business. Ya'all didn't like that. [repeats] It ain't none of yo' business."

Sorry, Danny, it is the business of every member what the pastor makes. Why is that so hard to understand? They pay his salary, and thus if a member wants to know what the compensation package is for the megachurch pastor, they should be able to find out.

He then goes on to recount how he treated this woman who criticized her pastor. Danny lovingly tells this woman:

"After you've run your staff and your pastor in the ground, I have no desire to come to your church, especially if I have to sit next to you."



Oh, I love the men of God when they act so pious and put troublemakers, especially female troublemakers, in their place. Of course this story is designed to send another signal to the FBC Jax church members: toe the line, don't criticize, don't question. If you do, the staff members will be there to let you have it.

Then he really lowers the boom on this woman as he tells her:

"I believe with all my heart that one of these days there will be people that stand before God, accountable for blood on their hands, for people like you, that run pastors and staff members and churches in the ground and keep people from coming to the house of God and hear the gospel of Jesus Christ."

How gracious. Yes, he passes judgment on this woman whom he doesn't know, right there in the restaurant. What a hypocrite, because not 5 minutes later in the sermon Danny declares that no one can judge another person's heart except God himself. Yet as the super spiritual man of God, he is able to judge a woman based on her comments about her pastor, letting her know that the blood of lost people will be on her hands.

There were other parts of this sermon where Danny warns criticizers and complainers. He already is doing a great job carrying the water for Mac.

One thing is for sure: Danny, you have found a great place at First Baptist Jacksonville. You will fit right in. You're at a place that for about 5 years now has been taught there is nothing more evil than to criticize a pastor, and what salary the preacher makes is not to be questioned by anyone. I can't wait to hear Danny preach on the tithe.

First Baptist Church members, you have a winner, in Danny Crosby. He's not afraid to beat the sheep.

Jacksonville residents, get ready for the loving "Arms Around Jacksonville" - but whatever you do, when the FBC Jax members minister to you around town don't dare criticize the pastor or ask anyone how much he makes. If you do Pastor Danny will heap burning coals on your head.

79 comments:

aisle seat, please. said...

This is going to be awesome.

(runs to make popcorn)

Okay, carry on.

Seriously, why is it not any business of the church?
Does that page on the financial report say "It ain't none of yo' business"?

I believe why they don't want salaries to be known is not the outrage from the church body, sure to be some, but more from the community in general.

Anonymous said...

In some churches the staff salaries are published and in some they are not. In some they are determined by the Personnel Committee and/or the Budget Committee and then they choose whether or not to make them public.

Since one of these two is the method in most Baptist churches, choose which one you like and go to that church but for pete's sake, quit whining about churches that don't make them public.

BTW, all church members do not pay the pastor's salary. All church members don't tithe--remember?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 7:20 - sure there are many ways salaries are determined, and there are many decisions made about how secretive the salaries are or are not.

But one of the reasons for non-disclosure of personnel salaries is not because "it ain't none of yo' business", especially when he is talking to some in the audience who presumably it IS there business.

It is just pastoral arrogance to stand and state what he stated, in the manner he did, and then express displeasure at the lack of audience response.

But, he will fit right in.

Anonymous said...

Ain't love grand? This cocky arrogant who calls himself a minister just won himself & wife a free Cruise ticket.

Mac keeps stirring the pot using others for a mouth piece.

Member of FBC

Anonymous said...

His last comment was "It is people like you who keep people from coming to the house of God so they can hear the Gospel and be saved."

He should read Wade Burleson's most recent post on formulaic evangelism.

http://www.wadeburleson.org/2011/10/real-problem-in-sbc-is-formulatic.html

WishIhadknown said...

I always like the guilt trip these guys lay on people, “accountable for blood on their hands, for people like you.” Like they know. Where are the”judge not” people when a preacher makes a statement like that?

What about the blood on the hands of the preachers who have failed to be open and transparent? What about those people? There are many more lost people(or should I say "seekers") who think we are silly to give our money to a church when all we are doing is making the rich preacher richer.

Johnny D. said...

Wow. Where do they find these guys?

Anonymous said...

Wow! I can't believe someone would believe that or say that.

Louis

Anonymous said...

Why would his salary make people stop coming to hear the gospel? Is it because it's so ridiculous they might feel deceived and used?

These churches can't publish their finances anymore because a lot of them are on the government dole (Faith-based initiatives, building programs, FEMA churches) and people might see there really is no separation of church and state.

You really don't think they get that tax-free status for nothing, do you? They like to preach on Romans 13 just like Hitler did.

Some members see these pastors spending a lot of their time studying the Bible for verses that will line the pastor's pockets. It works so well that the "blessings" are extended to family members and close friends who need a cushy job and get put on the staff.

No, the greedy money-changing pastors have done enough work all on their own to make people never want to set foot in their houses of deception and manipulation.

Tie a milestone around yo' neck and "drop it like it's hot" you greed mongers.

Anonymous said...

It's none of your business what you are paying me. Blame the spineless yes men deacons for letting these guys get away with this garbage.

Anonymous said...

Maybe the giving would increase if the members had a clear picture of management of church funds that are spent in salaries . I wonder if there is a website that recommends what percent of church funds should be spent on salaries, buildings, etc.

Junkster said...

It's way past time that churches had to disclose the same financial information, including compensation, that other non-profit and charitible organizations have to provide.

To Danny Crosby, Mac Brunson, Steve Gaines, et al: it ain't none of yo' business how much, if any, yo' church members give to the church or to anyone or anyplace else.

Laine said...

What a donkey.

Anonymous said...

The Attitude of Preachers

by Mac Brunson :

"Pastor, Paul says that the elders who rule well are worthy of double honor especially those who WORK hard at preaching/teaching. Go To Work!"
16 Oct

catch the words

WORK Hard
Rule Well
for Double Something (money?)

"There are no small churches. Every church is a mega church - mega work! Where there are 2 or 3 gathered there is a tired, worn out preacher!"
20 Oct

Oh those poor worn out Preachers.

"Daily I receive email from wounded pastors. There's a difference between corrective and critical speech - one God uses the other Satan."
14 Oct

"Pastor just think - you maybe someones target - but you are God's intimate friend, Prov 3:32."
24 Sep


"Pastors remember this when you are shot at: The devious are an abomination to the Lord. But He is intimate with the upright. Prov 3:32"
24 Sep

"I am afraid no sin raises the righteous anger of the church community today. If it does we do a great job of concealing it. Godhavemercy."
21 Sep

"Just spent a great hour with my friends @ronniefloyd and @jonathanfalwell in a round table discussion with pastors. I love preachers."
19 Sep

So forget the Sheep, only Preachers count.

Ergun Mehmet Caner
"When a Christian attacks another Christian's character publicly, it's a clear sign of desperation. It means they're out of ideas"
6 Oct

Anonymous said...

WOW!! FBC Jax is definitely a church on-fire and making a difference! If they weren't, there wouldn't be an entire webpage dedicated to persecuting and ridiculing this great church. How sad, how much time is being spent tearing this church apart, on this blog, instead of taking that time and spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

How even SADDER that the "blog owner" has to approve all comments... let me guess which comments he/she is going to post!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Proof that nowadays you have to check your brains at the door when entering a megachurch:

"WOW!! FBC Jax is definitely a church on-fire and making a difference! If they weren't, there wouldn't be an entire webpage dedicated to persecuting and ridiculing this great church."

Wonderful logic.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Off topic but too funny.

Ergun Caner tweet earlier this week:

"Is my Qaddafi costume now in bad taste? Too soon?"

Answer: not too soon at all, Ergun. You've been playing a Muslim terrorist for 10 years, why stop now??

Anonymous said...

There's about 4 things about this story that are sad to read, maybe bordering on sinful:

1. The lady criticizing her pastor and his pay. I know this is hard to hear, but that really is wrong biblically.

2. The Teaching Pastor for his arrogant and condemning message to the church. Of course it is the church's business to know.

3. The Finance Team and probably the Pastor who need to read the pulse of the church and economy and make adjustments if the pay is unreasonable. Pay him well, but pastors should never become rich off the blood of a homeless God-man.

4. The writer of this blog. You are going to hate hearing this, but the words of the Teaching Pastor and your written words are both arrogant, sarcastic and sad to hear from the lips/hand of two man who claim to be imitating Jesus,

Todd

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Todd - we don't even know if this story is true. When a preacher starts a story out with "one day my family...." I have my doubts about the story.

I have my doubts whether the woman was talking as loud as the pastor claims. He was eavesdropping. Who was she sitting with? Her husband? Her family? Close friends? Come on, it is not sinful to discuss concerns about a pastor. Maybe she was talking about a Bob Gray or some other abusive preacher? Sorry, Todd, it "ain't none yo business" what a lady at a restaurant talks about with her party and it ain't sinful. If the lady's husband was at the table, he's lucky he didn't get punched in the nose for his nasty comments.

What is sinful, is a pompous pastor stopping at her table to pass judgment on her. What if other people in the restaurant heard HIM tell her that the blood of people is on her hands for discussing concerns about a pastor? No, that is not a concern, because he is a righteous man of God and it is his job, he thinks, to put the common folk in their place.

As I said, Danny is a welcomed addition to FBC Jax. As one commenter said, get the popcorn.

Anonymous said...

Todd said...
"There's about 4 things about this story that are sad to read, maybe bordering on sinful:"

Oh Great ... Sinful...

That Bad Word Again....

Your Going to Burn....

Whats really "Sad" is these pastors/preachers who are undermining the faith of many and thus revealing the hollowness of Christianity.

Newt Gingrich put it this way:

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/08/11/newt-gingrichs-skeletons-his-past-wives/

"Even so Gingrich continued to give speeches about family. "How do you give that speech and do what you are doing?(having a mistress)" Marianne (2nd wife) asked him. They were in the death throes of their relationship."

"It doesn't matter what I do," he told her, according to the Esquire story. "People need to hear what I have to say. There's no one else who can say what I say. It doesn't matter what I live."

Anonymous said...

Danny Crosby's resume is online.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19933130/ChurchResume1

Bene D

Anonymous said...

BTW, all church members do not pay the pastor's salary. All church members don't tithe--remember?


Sooo--since Bellevue and others do actually accept money from "non-tithers" aren't the pastors also running around in stolen cars and living in stolen houses? And what about their diamond rings, and trips, and oh wait--the trips are stolen as part of the travel package

just asking here?

Anonymous said...

It is none of my business what YOU make!

WE DON'T CARE WHAT MAC MAKES!!!

He feeds us, leads us, and in some cases, weeds us.

I don't care for Pastor Danny's preaching but I also don't care what we pay him...

"Ain't None of My Business"

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the article. Just one question: what does Wade Burleson make? I think ALL pastors should reveal their salary....not just those you dislike. By the way, he takes the housing package too! Come on guys! Get real. Don't let your friends off the hook. You are no better than the megapastors if you do!

New BBC Open Forum said...

To their credit, I didn't hear any "amens" or "that's right preacher" or see anyone nodding in agreement.

If this even happened, and I seriously doubt it did, that woman should have looked him in the eye, smiled sweetly, and said, "Bless yo' heart, that really ain't none of yo' business, darlin'."

Jennifer McSparin said...

If what this pastor says was accurate, and the lady was loudly criticizing her church staff in a restaurant, I have to agree that the lady was wrong-not that she was criticizing the staff, but doing so loudly in a restaurant. That can send the wrong message to the unsaved/critics of Christianity.

However, his message here in general sounds very arrogant, and I don't think it's appropriate to preach from the pulpit against criticizing the staff. It IS the church's business how much staff members make-there should be complete financial accountability of the spending of the church to its members.

Thy Peace said...

How Wade Burleson dealt with ...

Wade Burleson > Lessons in Dealing with a Disgruntled Member

Sharon said...

Only properly trained and prepared people will sit through this kind of stuff. You must grow up under the authoritarian ways of Fundamental, Independent Baptist or similar Southern Baptist preaching. If you've been under this style of Christianity your whole life, it's just another service.

You either basically tune it out and make your grocery list and take it all with a big grain of salt, or you take it all very seriously and actually BELIEVE that this type of thing represents real, true Christianity-you actually BELIEVE that that guy up there is not on a power trip, but is a Man-of-God who somehow has an inside track into the mind of God himself. You actually BELIEVE that you are gonna die and stand out there somewhere with blood dripping from your hands, and God's gonna let you know what an awful person you were to keep people from attending these type of services. (Imagine a visitor to this service! lol)

Much as it pains me, there are many who do believe that stuff, and that gives these preachers their power.

I'd suggest to those sitting under these guys-go to a very different type of church for about six months, or don't go to church at all for about six months. Your eyes will start to open to the mindset you have developed from years and years of this type of preaching. You'll start to see that the preacher up there has only the power you give him.

Maybe you'll no longer believe that he and God are joined at the hip.

Imagine attending a Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, or Catholic service. It would be very, very different-yet they also feel they are being good Christians and doing what the Bible says. And most of those who attend those other denominations would not feel comfortable with a guy up there telling them what low-grades they are constantly and how you have no right to know the salary expenses of the church.

In what other setting can someone say, "Give me your money. It's none of your business what I do with your money. I represent God, and he's not gonna be happy if you dare to criticize anything I do."

Anonymous said...

Isn't corporate america great!

John Wylie said...

I will say I totally agree that the pastor telling the congregation that it was not their business is outrageous. Members of a church should have an account of every dime spent, including the staff's compensation and benefits.

However, it's not any of my business what Mac makes or what anyone on the staff there makes. I know, I know, everyone will bring up the tax exempt thing, but because Baptist churches are autonomous it's their busy how they do their finances. I do recognize and respect the IRS's right to look at our books and scrutinize. But people who don't attend or contribute to a particular church's finances have no right whatsoever to demand to know.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

How ironic:

Danny Crosby preaches that a woman in a private conversation in a restaurant criticizing her church and pastor is sin....yet if you read his resume on line, he says this ON HIS RESUME, about his former church where he was senior pastor (Cloverdale Baptist in Montgomery, AL):

"Discovered various doctrinal differences, philosophies of ministry, had to confront serious immorality among church leadership, and experienced great resistance when we began to grow".

Wow. So on his resume he criticizes the "leadership" as being immoral, and then criticizes the peeps because they "resisted" his leadership that caused growth.

So which is worse? A woman criticizing a pastor in a private conversation in a restaurant, or a pastor criticizing his former church on the Internet?

Have you ever seen someone slam a former employer on a resume?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

John - totally agree. A church does not have a responsibility to tell you how much their pastor makes. Point is, for them to arrogantly say to the people who give the cash "It ain't none yo business" is just over the top. It is arrogance to the extreme to say it like that, and then to act offended when they didn't amen him!! That was classic! As NewBBC said, there wasn't a peep. Ooops, maybe the people think it is there business.

Anonymous said...

Some churches publish the preacher's "salary", but that is only a fraction of the "compensation package."

Professional clergy members get to claim the reasonable rental value of a fully furnished home, with utilities, as their housing allowance. So, let's say a pastor makes $100,000 per year, he might claim $60K of that his "housing allowance" (depending on where he lives and the inflated price of real estate) and only pay taxes on his "salary" of $40K. Reasonable, yes?

Also, under IRS regulations, ordained clergy may also "opt out" of paying social security or "self-employment" tax if they object to paying it for reasons of religion or conscience - a privilege enjoyed by no other taxpayers except for professional clergy. Nice.

Then, add in whatever the church pays for their health & dental insurance benefits, 401k plan, cell phone, car allowance, personal library, book allowance, paid staff and volunteers to conduct research so they can write and publish books, book royalties, travel per diem and expenses, speaking/conference fees, special "pastor appreciation" gifts and offerings, lawn care, daycare, free tickets to concerts and games - the list of perks goes on and on.

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/02/youngs-franchise-player-view-of-himself.html

Anonymous said...

"My blood began to boil...I couldn't hep myself."

Sickening. This guy oughta be fired. Let him get a real job, like those chumps he pompously berates from his lofty perch. STOP PAYING THESE BLOWHARDS TO PONTIFICATE EVERY SUNDAY!!! It ain't the gospel folks.

Nonarbus said...

SMH LOL

cheezewhizchurch said...

My guess is that folks at FBC are reading this blog and becoming uncomfortable with the financial secrets and extravagance of the leadership. They might be raising this issue to deacons or whatnot. Thus, the leadership feels the need to warn members to look the other way, stop wanting to know these things, stop objecting to luxury and conspicuous consumption among church leaders. The story of the woman sounds fake to me, though it could have been from an economy mega-sermon pack, picked out especially for situations like this one.

Anonymous said...

If you were at First Baptist this morning then you heard Mac Brunson criticizing people who started to leave the auditorium at the start of the invitation. Funny thing is that last week Mac Brunson walked out of the auditorium at the start of the invitation because he had to be at another church that night. He has also walked out before during the start of other invitations before but yet he gets onto others for doing the same thing that he does. What is happening to our once great church.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - sorry to hear that, but it is not the first time. I wrote about another time he did this 2 1/2 years ago, when he blasted people for leaving early. And as I mentioned in that article, just a few weeks prior he left during the invitation to catch a flight to his Mediterranean Cruise.

As far as what is going on at your church - everything is hunky dory. As Mac tweeted today the TV ratings are off the charts, and visitors are flocking to the South Campus.

Anonymous said...

http://twitter.com/#!/PsRobertMorris

Tweeeeeet!

If you give to God FIRST, He’ll provide for you & protect you. Tithing brings PROVISION & PROTECTION. (Malachi 3:10-11)

It ain't none yo' bitness. Now send in God's check.

Anonymous said...

Tonight he preached from Romans 15 and note verse 20 says not to build on another mans foundation but isn't that what fbcjax did when they started south campus?

Anonymous said...

Tweeeeeet!

Is this the Danny?

http://twitter.com/#!/DannyPCrosby

@DannyPCrosby Florida
"Child of God, husband of an awesome wife, father of 3 precious children, soulwinner, preacher, Adult Ed. Pastor @ FBC Jacksonville, FL & National Guard Chaplain"

"Ain't None of Yo' Business"

@DannyPCrosby's Tweets are protected.

Only confirmed followers have access to @DannyPCrosby's Tweets and complete profile

Anonymous said...

Pastor Mac has EARNED the right to leave early.

He stays late EVERY week.

This is all so childish.

Why not talk about something important like Obama and Occupy Wall Street.

This stuff about salaries does not matter.

We know they don't tell us what they earn, and we don't care about it or we would stop attending.

FBCJAX is stronger NOW than it has ever been and the numbers prove it!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"Why not talk about something important like Obama and Occupy Wall Street."

This is about the 99%

vs

the 1% ie Rich Mega Preachers

Anonymous said...

The Humble Beginnings of
Pastor Danny: (no wonder he's beating the Sheep, he's "Arrived", at FBC JAX and the money is flowing)
Jun 28, 2009 8:59 AM
"I am the Senior Pastor of the Cloverdale Baptist Church in Montgomery, Alabama. I became the pastor here in June 2007. This has been the greatest experience I have ever had in ministry. I am approaching 10 years in the the ministry and I'm more excited about ministry than ever. Cloverdale has a rich history and heritage and I'm convinced its greatest days lay ahead.

My first church was the Circle Hill Baptist Church near Sneads, FL. Well, it's really near Two Egg, FL so you know it's in the country. This little church was running about 25 when I arrived there in 2001. When we left after 2 1/2 years of service we were running around 60 in worship. God helped us to learn a great deal during that time and we still love the precious folks at CHBC.

We left there and went to Faith Radio in Montgomery, AL. That was an enjoyable ministry, but it was short lived. I had been doing broadcast ministry even while I was at CHBC and so it was a great opportunity to do on-air ministry and preach in surrounding churches. We ended up not staying there for various reasons, but God once again used that experience to teach us many things and to gain many friends in the Lord.

We went to the Boone's Chapel Baptist Church in Prattville, AL to help my good friend Pastor Rodney Culpepper with the Youth and Children's ministry there. I agreed to be the Interim Minister to Students. We had an average of 100 kids coming each Wednesday night. We helped to get them organized, establish some discipline, lead some kids to Christ, and prepare the church for further growth. I was able to lead the church through a time of ministry evaluation and also led a one-day soul winning workshop and other evangelism training. It was a joy to see church members there lead their first person to Christ.

I then became the Interim Pastor of the New Haven Baptist Church in Elba, AL. What a joy these folks were. The 6 months we were with them was a sweet experience. We still like to keep in touch with these fine servants of the Lord. I was recently contacted by one member there and they recalled two different sermons I preached there that impacted their personal walk with Christ. This was over three years ago. What a blessing!

The Calvary Baptist Church in Abbeville, AL came to hear me preach while I was there and I later became their pastor. This was a time of much fruit in the ministry and a time to develop life-long friendships in the work of the Lord. We were there almost 2 years. We saw several people get saved, baptized, and join the church. We sent one young lady to Bible College after she surrendered to the call of missions. We still keep in touch with many wonderful people there.

For the next year we would finish Chaplain School with the Alabama Army National Gaurd in Ft. Jackson, SC (I've been in the Reserve & Guard for almost 15 years), serve on active duty with the Alabama Counter Drug Office and help to establish the Alabama National Guard Youth Challenge Academy at Ft. McClellan, AL. We were grateful to end this tour when the stress of 16 hour days began to mount and the political scene became too full of red tape and power struggles. Our church in Anniston, the Hill Crest Baptist Church, with Pastor Rick Reeves and our home church Cloverdale Baptist Church in Dothan and Pastor Dennis Singletary certainly helped us through this time.

We then came in contact with the Cloverdale Baptist Church in Montgomery. Dr. Don Labelle invited me to preach a weekend revival for his church and we had an instant connection. He later retired and moved to Memphis, TN to be with their grandchildren. The pastor search committee invited me to talk with them and the rest is history. We are loving this ministry."

Anonymous said...

My favorite line from a malcontent is when they say, "let him get a real job." I would love for some of you to be pastor for a while and put up with the whining, griping, complaining, dying, sickness and all the other stuff. Not all pastors are mega-pastors and thank God not all members are malcontents.

Anonymous said...

"If you were at First Baptist this morning then you heard Mac Brunson criticizing people who started to leave the auditorium at the start of the invitation."

Grow up fellow church member. This happened all the time with Dr. Lindsay.

Anonymous said...

Not all pastors are mega-pastors. Very true. WD doesn't seem to have a problem with real, humble, hardworking pastors, and he recognizes their hard work and has credited them for it many times. It's only the fleecers, fakers and exploiters that he takes issue with. Malcontent? It would be wrong to BE content with wolves posing as sheep. Laying guilt on folks for pointing out the dens of thieves is a low trick.

Anonymous said...

What astonishes me most about this is that the pew sitters did not all get up and walk out when he said this. That says a lot about the discernment of those left at FBCJax.

Anonymous said...

Meanwhile at another mega church a few states away, a long time member decides it is time for him to see a detailed budget. So, he makes an appointment and goes in to see the finance guys. They refuse to show him one telling him the elders approve all spending and basically it is none of his business.

He says if that is the case my family can no longer attend here and leaves. And makes sure he tells everyone he knows of the experience.

See, during this bad economy he kept seeing expenditures on frilly things and became very concerned. He was more mad at himself for not asking years before.

Crosby did not make a biblical case for why it is one of 'yo' business. He can't except to appeal to authoritarian rule which is unBaptist.

Anonymous said...

However, it's not any of my business what Mac makes or what anyone on the staff there makes. I know, I know, everyone will bring up the tax exempt thing, but because Baptist churches are autonomous it's their busy how they do their finances. I do recognize and respect the IRS's right to look at our books and scrutinize. But people who don't attend or contribute to a particular church's finances have no right whatsoever to demand to know."

So since you do not follow Benny Hinn or Paul Crouch, what they rake in is none of your business. Neither is what Ed Young extorts, etc. It is sin to inquire?

That only makes you a protector of charlatans.

Anonymous said...

My favorite line from a malcontent is when they say, "let him get a real job." I would love for some of you to be pastor for a while and put up with the whining, griping, complaining, dying, sickness and all the other stuff. Not all pastors are mega-pastors and thank God not all members are malcontents.

October 24, 2011 8:47 AM

One does not HAVE to be a pastor. Kind of strange that you whine about something so many claim is a CALLING. But then we are getting used to hearing from entitlement minded, whiny pastors.

You sound nothing like Paul. But then he had it much worse.

Ed Franklin said...

Anon 8:47 implies that he is a pastor with this great line:

"...be pastor for a while and put up with the whining, griping, complaining, dying, sickness and all the other stuff"

Ah, yes, the burden put upon "pastors" by the sheep having needs, being ill and dying, all that...how inconsiderate of them! Don't they realize "pastor" has more important things to do than hold their hand? Imagine the gall of someone dying just before his tee time?

Sharon said...

Maybe those leaving early, or trying to, had to get to their cruise departure point or had to get to an important meeting or gathering on time, just like the pastor.

I don't know what the invitation is like there, but if it's similar to many I've stood through-maybe they can't stand the thought of listening to the emotional manipulation that goes on while "Just As I Am" plays over and over and over.

Maybe they want to beat the crowd to the good restaurants.

To me, what is totally preposterous is the idea of the preacher leaving early to go on a cruise-or going on a cruise at any time. If people cannot see the big disconnect between the sermon he just preached and going on a cruise-they have really drunk a lot of that famous kool-aid.

John Wylie said...

Anon 10:20 AM,

Oh, I don't think it's sin to inquire. But I maintain my point that the only people who have an absolute right to know about the church's finances are the members of that church or parachurch organization and, of course, the IRS. I don't donate to Benny Hinn, Paul Crouch, or Ed Young, therefore, it's none of my business what they make.

Anonymous said...

" I would love for some of you to be pastor for a while and put up with the whining, griping, complaining, dying, sickness and all the other stuff. Not all pastors are mega-pastors and thank God not all members are malcontents"


I would say a Pastor who feels this way was not called to be a shepherd of the flock - what amazes me is so many in the ministry who have to take anti-depressant pills to do their work - sorry the ministry work is a piece of cake compared to those of us who work in the real wokforce who put up with the same thing, and then show up at church to be volunteer workers. Danny boy, for his young age sure hasn't a track record of staying in one place for long - he won't last @ FBCJ.

Anonymous said...

It is our business what Hinn,Crouch and all the other big shots make since their organizations are tax exempt.Without any oversite or transparency who knows what is going on behind the scenes.

Anonymous said...

But I maintain my point that the only people who have an absolute right to know about the church's finances are the members of that church or parachurch organization and

John Wylie, I also agree with your assessment about internal doing in the church, it is their business. However, it dose not sound christian to hide what is used to spread the gospel.

The truth may be that some churches are more closer to a program center that seeks out people that fits their bill for control. no matter the internal business is the church.

The question could be asked is it gods business as god was sometime non-transparent in communication with the created. Churches are behaving god like but they always have.

Anonymous said...

Oh, I don't think it's sin to inquire. But I maintain my point that the only people who have an absolute right to know about the church's finances are the members of that church or parachurch organization and, of course, the IRS. I don't donate to Benny Hinn, Paul Crouch, or Ed Young, therefore, it's none of my business what they make.

October 24, 2011 10:43 AM

Then it is only logical that it is equally none of your business how they behave or what they teach. And that is why pastors are losing credibility by the minute.

After all, Jim Jones had "autonomy".

Dee said...

" I would love for some of you to be pastor for a while and put up with the whining, griping, complaining, dying, sickness and all the other stuff."

Stupid flock, getting sick and dying all the time. Good night! Isn't this the call of every Christian? And we are supposed to feel sorry for pastors who must put up with those who are hurting?

Something is very, very wrong in the ministry if this is considered a burden. Jesus spent His time with the sick and the dying. He did not spend his time hobnobbing with the Pharisees and taking Mediterranean cruises. (Well, He did go out once or twice on the Sea of Galilee but I do not think midnight buffets were offered.)

I am truly flummoxed by this comment. Keep exposing this stuff, Tom.

Anonymous said...

My guess is that there never was a woman saying such a thing in a restuarant. It was all conjured up by Mac so that he was not the only one making a point about himself and what he makes. There is probably more grumbling going on than people think and he knows it. Or, it could be the blog is getting to him again.

Crosby is a good little lemming. After all, such good paying mega church jobs don't come your way every day. I hope Crosby is a good little Mac worshiper or he won't last, either.

Anonymous said...

"Funny thing is that last week Mac Brunson walked out of the auditorium at the start of the invitation because he had to be at another church that night."

You need to get another battery for your hearing aid fellow member.

He had to leave to drive down south to close out a statewide missions conference.

John Wylie said...

Anon 12:51 pm said

"Then it is only logical that it is equally none of your business how they behave or what they teach. And that is why pastors are losing credibility by the minute.

After all, Jim Jones had "autonomy"."

No I don't think your conclusion is correct. Because if someone is teaching error publicly or is behaving immorally publicly then we all have an obligation to address that. Jim Jones had nine hundred people killed, that's everyone's business.

But how much a local church pays its staff or how it handles its finances is only the business of the members of that church. Now if improprieties become public, then I think it's okay for other people to address it. But I have no more right to know what Mac Brunson makes than I do to go to your home and ask to see your check stub.

Anonymous said...

Anon. 2:29 PM. So he had to be at another church that night.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:35 AM. Dr. Lindsay NEVER left during the invitation to go to another church. He always led by example not "Do as I say, not as I do" mentality that Mac Brunson has.

Anonymous said...

When Dr Lindsay came to FBCJ in 1968 everyone at the church service one Wed night when we voted him in knew what his salary was. Even when Dr Vines came in 1982 everyone knew what his salary was since all 200 deacons and their wives knew and certainly that information was passed around rather quickly. Of course the salaries of church personnel should be known...its that simple.

This type of secrecy only brings about discord among the brethren especially when some have knowledge and others do not.

Anonymous said...

But I have no more right to know what Mac Brunson makes than I do to go to your home and ask to see your check stub.

October 24, 2011 3:05 PM

This is a very typical view of pastors. When it is convenient, they are workers like everyone else. Other times they are specially called and anointed.


They tend to want it both ways. You see John, the difference is that I am not expecting my brothers and sisters in Christ to pay me a salary for my gifts in the body. You are. Then you want to claim this is priviledged information for the charlatans.

Now, when it comes to one of your colleagues who is cultish in his authoritarianism, you want to pretend like his followers are mature enough spiritually to make distinctions. But we know that is not true. Not only from their actions but also their words on this blog.

It is guys like Brunson who give pastors a bad name. Yet, you are more than willing to go along with autonomy instead of speaking out on abuses that affect you and the cause of Christ.

The same "autonomy" arguements are used with the perverts and molesters in the SBC pulpits. It is very shameful.

I believe pastors have to be by-passed and we must educate the pew sitter. Pastors have too much to lose.

John Wylie said...

Anon 8:14 am

It has nothing to do with wanting it both ways. All I'm saying is that if there is no public heresy or public immorality going on it's not my place nor yours to interfere with the dealings of a local church.

I've already said that I think the assisant pastor's comments were outrageous. The members of FBC Jax have an absolute right to know the salaries.

As far as your snide remarks about me personally, well, that's what it always comes down to, you hate pastors. Quite frankly someone screaming for someone else to be transparent all the while doing it from the cover of anonymity is laughable.

Anonymous said...

What a huge sign of the christian maturity level at FBC if all they can find is Danny Crosby. In reveiwing his resume', there are many red flags going off. I don't think he has held a job for more than 2 years, so what is the true story there? Also,if this is all they can find to replace Smyrl.. good grief they are in trouble.

And by all means, the church hires the staff and pays their salary, so why would it not be public knowledge. So yeah, its ALL my business.

When full disclosure doesn't happen, there is always some impropriety or something shady going on.

Ed Franklin said...

Wylie sez: "someone screaming for someone else to be transparent all the while doing it from the cover of anonymity is laughable"

Amen to that! I don't necessarily agree with you on the issue but appreciate the fact you are not one of these gutless cowards who spew freely from their anonymity. For them, a reminder: I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
(Matthew 12:36-37)

Your "anonymous" state is a delusion, folks.

Anonymous said...

And how do we know you are really Ed Franklin? For all you know I could be Mac Brunson, Jim Smyrll, etc.

Anonymous said...

This Danny Crosby guy is so much like Mac Brunson in his mannerisms and condescenion of people.

Just a younger clone of Mac-Daddy.

Great post WD about all the travel junkets and to see that some marketing company is reeling them in. Filling up the cruise ships and aircraft cabins with sheeple.

I always thought there something peculiar about those, now you have made it clear and it ain't pretty.

Sad really.
Garlando

Ed Franklin said...

Anonwimp sez: "And how do we know you are really Ed Franklin? For all you know I could be Mac Brunson, Jim Smyrll, etc."

That's a hot link to my blog from which you could easily find me.....I'm in the book. As for you being Brunson, he's a lot of things but I don't think he's a moral coward. He'd claim whatever he said, even if he's wrong (and he frequently is.....)

Anonymous said...

"moral coward"

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
(Matthew 12:36-37)

Anonymous said...

Ed,

You do realize that Tom was blogging autonomously until he was outed by the FCBJAX gang right?

So, was Tom a moral coward when he started this blog?

Ed Franklin said...

WD, tell me it ain't true?!?!?

You blogged AUTONOMOUSLY????

noooooooooooo

not that!

I thought surely you were a puppet of the deacon board at FBCJax.....lol

brother, I love your idiot trolls! You can't buy this kind of entertainment

Anonymous said...

WD, tell me it ain't true?!?!?

Ed Franklin couldn't answer the question without making himself look like an idiot so he chose to make an ad hominem attack over a word that was automatically changed by spell checker.

noooooooooooo

not that!

"Anonymously"

Is that dumbed down enough for you?

Now answer the question Ed and stop being a jerk.

Perhaps you should start posting comments anonymously.

At this point, I have a strong association between the words "Ed Franklin" and "idiot."

Anonymous said...

"Anonwimp sez:"

So, was WD an "Anonwimp" before Mac outed him?

Come on Ed, apply you bad thinking to it's logical conclusion.

Anonymous said...

No comment Ed?

Good move.