"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Sunday, April 12, 2009

"I Am Not Infallible" Says Mac

Below is Mac's attempt at an apology of sorts at the end of the Easter service 4/12/09. He doesn't say what he is talking about, just that he is alerting the congregation to the fact that he is not infallible. He says:

"I am a sinner...I have faults...I'm not inerrant, and I'm not infallible, and I'm certainly not perfect, and I just want you to know that."

Thanks for clarifying, as we all have thought you were sinless, Mac. And he doesn't say what he's sort of apologizing for - for the whole mess in the newspaper, or maybe for diagnosing me as a sociopath. But he then goes on to say whatever it was he was sort of apologizing for, he did it in the best interests of the church, because he is the great bastion of protection of the church.
Listen for yourself. He has his humble voice on. No stomping. No yelling, just humble Mac.

231 comments:

1 – 200 of 231   Newer›   Newest»
No One Special said...

Ya think???

Christa Brown said...

Why, why, why, why, why do the people in the pews put up with a guy like this??? That's the question that always remains a mystery to me... at FBC-Jax and at plenty of other churches.

Kudos to you, Watchdog. You've endured and have shown the sad truth about this pathetic power-monger of a preacher. But of course, you can't make people open their eyes.

Anonymous said...

As usual you make yourself out to be the unjustly maligned hero. Your satire falls on many a deaf ear.

Anonymous said...

All the people that back you up are just ignorant. They know nothing about anything, obviously, because they don't know Mac nor do they go to FBC. For being such a "horrible" church, it was packed for the Easter service. Obviously no one cares what you have to say, otherwise there would have been a lot of empty seats. You are just ruining your reputation as well as your family's, and apparently you have no other way to spend your time other than to bash a church with you really know nothing about. You just go off of stories and gossip you've heard and took it from there. Kudos to you. I'm sure God is really smiling on you right now since you are really edifying the kingdom of God. If you are such this great Christian, why don't you spend some time witnessing, studying your Bible, or encouraging others. Jesus didn't act like this when he was "abused."

Full Court said...

It is time for Brunson to resign. He has done enough damage and this situation can only be rectified by his leaving.

Anonymous said...

He sounds just like Paige Patterson and Steve Gaines when the heat is turned up on them.

Of course, they are all cut from the same cloth.

This is the 'wolf' guarding the flock.

Anonymous said...

Wonder what he is alluding to? Don't you just love vague? This way he can come back later and say he 'repented' and was humble if things don't keep going his way.

Anonymous said...

Where are the police reports?

What criminal acts did Tiffany Croft and BBCopenforum do?

Where are the investigative police reports on them?

Anonymous said...

Whether people agree with what your blog or not, I can't see how a person with any common sense can agree with how the church handled the situation. Unfortunately after Mac Brunson gave his little speech this morning, he received a standing ovation by everyone at the church. Does nobody in the church think for themselves?

Ghost said...

First of all Happy Easter...I hate even be focusing on this on the day we are supposed to be celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

However, I was sickened today by Mac's half apology.

First of all in the sermon(which would have been GREAT had he stuck on message) Mac stated that this week he decided he would let NOTHING distract him from focusing on Jesus Christ. That's wonderful Mac...I'm happy you made it through this week where you embarassed our church so greatly without distraction. I am glad you were focused on Jesus as you say, since, after all that IS your job(even if you are so underpaid and borderline poverty). However, I would like to know where this 'focus', that you were patting yourself on the back for, was during the entire time this blog existed. Were you focused solely on Jesus Christ when you were saying the Watchdog is a closeted homosexual? Were you focused solely on Jesus Christ when you were stomping around vowing to shut this blog down because it was eating you alive? When you were demanding that trespass warrants be issued against this man and his wife were you focused solely on Jesus Christ? When you are asked for a comment this week by the newspaper and you had an opportunity to respond with Christ-like compassion before a city, but chose to respond by calling Mr. Rich a 'sociopath' were you focused on Jesus Christ?

Mac your attempt at an apology today was pathetic. First of all if you want to apologize about something be MAN enough to say WHAT you are apologizing for. You owe the church an apology for embarassing the ministry, and you owe Mr. Rich an apology for slandering his character. Simply saying you "aren't perfect" is simply not good enough.

Also, please drop with the spint that this was a safety issue. Anyone with a half a brain knows that there was no security threat to First Baptist although the Sheriff and the State Attorney and Mac continue to spin it as such. Mr. Sheriff please tell me what the security threat was from another blogger who says he has never even stepped foot in Jacksonville?!?!

Wake up First Baptist! How can you not see this man for what he is? After Mac's apology nearly every sheep in the building stood in applause.This is just so sad watching this unfold.

Also a few side notes, again tonight Mac cancelled the service, and this morning he cancelled the visitors reception. On the day where we had probably more visitors than any day in the year Mac was more concerned with being first in line at the buffet than he was about meeting our visitors. It is just so sad to see what has happened to this once great church...

Anonymous said...

"Does nobody in the church think for themselves?"

That would defeat the purpose of going...

Anonymous said...

First of all, if you have never personally met the pastor or really know anything about him, how can YOU supposedly "know" all this stuff that goes on? Hmm possibly through other people's mouths? Which if I remember correctly, is called gossip.

Ok Mr. "Christian" man, why don't you take some time to read your Bible once in a while instead of getting your "power" for the day by slandering, mocking, and talking trash about FBC and Brunson.

"Don't talk about your neighbors behind their backs— no slander or gossip, please. Don't say to anyone, "I'll get back at you for what you did to me. I'll make you pay for what you did!" -Proverbs 24:28

"Though some tongues just love the taste of gossip, those who follow Jesus have better uses for language than that. Don't talk dirty or silly. That kind of talk doesn't fit our style. Thanksgiving is our dialect." -Ephesians 5:3-4

"Wrongdoers eagerly listen to gossip;liars pay close attention to slander." -Proverbs 17:4

"You must not go about spreading slander among your people; you must not jeopardize your neighbor's life; I am the LORD."-Leviticus 19:16

"All bitterness, anger and wrath, insult and slander must be removed from you, along with all wickedness." -Ephesians 4:31

I could go on all day. Instead of looking to yourself as the "victim" why don't you look at yourself at the destroyer. Instead of focusing on someone else's faults, why don't you focus on your own? It takes a man to do that, and if you had the guts to and were humble, you would.

" Let us search out and examine our ways, and turn back to the LORD." -Lamentations 3:20

I don't see any great or Christian traits that you have. To me, someone that is made new in Christ would strive to do these things; to use their time other than making a fool out of themselves by taking pride in destroying someone. To me, you just prove yourself to be like every other lost person out there, only focusing on themselves and how they should return revenge.

"Liars secretly hoard hatred; fools openly spread slander." -Proverbs 10:18

Anonymous said...

And by the way Ghost, he always cancels night services for special holidays for the families to do devotionals on their own. If you knew anything about FBC you would know that... He's been doing that for a while now. It goes to show how ignorant people are and like to tell half-truths.

Anonymous said...

"Whether people agree with what your blog or not, I can't see how a person with any common sense can agree with how the church handled the situation. Unfortunately after Mac Brunson gave his little speech this morning, he received a standing ovation by everyone at the church. Does nobody in the church think for themselves?"

April 12, 2009 9:29 PM

When you have invested as much money and interest in bringing a well known and highly recommended person to your church, you are apt to save face and back him short of his murdering someone.

I have seen it all too often not just in churches but in many organizations.

Pride keeps us from admitting we had no wisdom and discernment. So we back them, and keep backing them and hope and finally rationalize the behaviors.

Unfortuantly, in this case, Mac has very badly twisted scripture for his own end. I felt ill watching that clip.

It was like one of my teenagers who gets caught red handed who says: I am not perfect.

How many parents would accept that excuse for consistent, willful wrong behavior? We would know there was a problem of a hard heart. Perhaps even narcissism.

These were not mistakes Mac made. It was willful, arrogant sin by a 'shepherd'.

He allowed his ego and pride to dictate his actions. This blog would have faded to nothing sooner or later.

I pray he will study Hebrews 10 and realize how serious that is when he should know the truth as a pastor.

Can you imagine the witness he could be if he fell on his face in true repentance before all those people he is 'guarding'?

But all he did was leave them with the idea that arrogance and pride are Christian attributes.

Matt

Full Court said...

To anyone complaining about the wonderful work that Mr. Tom Rich has done is exposing the wolf in sheeps clothing at FBC JAX, maybe you should read your Bible.

You say that Mr. Rich should just take the abuses that are flowing from the pulpit at FBC JAX and "turn the other cheek" because that is what Jesus would do???

How very wrong you are.

When the money changers were abusing the sanctuary of the synagogue, what did Christ do?

Turn the other cheek?

No.

John 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

A pastor doesn't own a church. The membership has the right to expose any misdeeds that happen in the church.

The days of good 'ol boys covering for each other while they raid the coffers and prattle about with great swelling words of vanity about themselves should have died with the pharisees.

Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

But as obvioused by the published words of Mac Brunson, Phariseemism is alive and well at FBC JAX.


Matthew 7:15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Anonymous said...

Ghost, its apparent you don't know anything you are talking about. If you are a supposed "member" of FBC you would know that Brunson cancels evening services for special occasions so families can take part in private devotionals at home. He's been doing that for years, and if you supposedly go to FBC, wouldn't you know that? Its obvious there is a lot of half-truths on this blog.

Anonymous said...

Mr Brunson, how many opportunities have you had to rectify this whole thing? Yet everything you do only seems to dig the hole deeper. When will you realize that this won't go away by doing "damage control"? You don't "protect" the church by repeatedly saying and doing things to hurt it, and implying that you're the victim. Until you honestly come clean things are just going to get worse. Proverbs 16:18 says "pride goeth before destruction and an haughty spirit before a fall". "Guard against greed - it'll do you in".

D

Anonymous said...

People that once looked up to you personally, Watchdog, definitely won't anymore. What kind of example are you setting for anyone, especially your kids? What kind of example is it to show your children that it's ok to slander others, even if they've sinned or wronged you? What kind of example is it to non-believers showing them that a Christian can act just like everyone else, instead of being the "bigger" person and acting more mature. I guess that doesn't matter to you, and if it doesn't, shame on you. Your new church is going to look on you as "Hey, don't do anything to upset "Watchdog" or he may say horrible things and lies about you!" How can you be trusted?

Anonymous said...

I am in Nashville, TN and just learned of your story. I am just getting through your posts, and would like to wish you support. I am sorry this has happened to you.

The church in question appears to be a toxic spiritual environment. And you have been the victim of spiritual abuse. Have you ever read "Letters to a Devastated Christian" by Gene Edwards? I recommend it.

There are many healthy churches with loving congregations and leadership. I hope you find one.

Anonymous said...

Time to step down, Mac.

Michael said...

As a former member of FBC Jax who grew up under Calvin Carr's ministry...

1. When pastors, churches and Christians are trashed in local papers, God is not honored and the Kingdom is not advanced. This entire situation brings embarrassment to the name of Christ.

2. It is cowardly people who post blogs and comments and do not sign their name.

Joan of Argghh! said...

Any church that has a discipline "committee" is just trying to invoke an holy authority by a fleshly fiat. Somebody needs to apologize to the Inquisitors.

Now, if, as in Acts, church leaders had any real power to discipline, it would be imputed from the Righteous One and in effect be so powerfully unnerving to its conduits as to keep them in holy fear of misusing that power.

Still, tread carefully and guard your own heart, WD. Where your civil rights have been possibly (and seemingly) violated, you should have the support of every member of the community, whether they agree with your criticisms or not.

But you musn't forget that Church membership is voluntary. Speak your peace, and then hold onto your peace. You cannot make unwilling people see things your way or recognize your hurt. You've exposed concerns that do not seem significant to other voluntary members. What more should you hope for amongst the brethren whom you say you love?

Your post today is showing signs of bitterness that is unbecoming a humble warrior for truth. See to your own heart, lest you be seen as equally arrogant in your cause as your adversary.

Finally, no matter what you or any other church members go through, never forget: the Press does NOT love Christians or their churches. EVER.

Ghost said...

Dear Anon 10:28,

Yes I am a member, and yes I do know that Brunson cancels services all the time. Thank you for proving my point. I was pointing out how absurd it is that he does do this, especially on days such as Easter when we are supposed to be celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ. If one truly believes that what happens in a worship service has ETERNAL significance, why would you EVER cancel a service unnecessarily?

I remember so vividly how much it pained Dr. Vines to cancel the Sunday night service the night Super Bowl 39 was held in Jacksonville. He looked for every way possible to get around stopping a service, but he felt in the end that it wasn't realistically possible to get downtown during that event. My point is how far we have come from a pastor such as this, to Mac Brunson who looks for reasons to cancel services, rather than reasons not to.

Anonymous said...

How is it that a man can admit he has done wrong, be forgiven and continue to "preach"

but a man who points out that Mac has done wrong is a "coward" and an "embarrassment
to the name of Christ" ????

What has been done here by Watchdog is posted a "warning sign" for others
about the dangers that lurk within the walls at FBC Jax

Anonymous said...

...and the wisdom to know the difference!

What was that anonymous apology on Sunday for?

Perhaps the JSO & SAO is needed to search out who was Mac apologizing to, and of course sponsored with my taxpayer dime to boot!

Anonymous said...

Mr. Rich, Thank you for teaching your children not to blindly follow a big name leader just because he calls himself a Christian and many others follow him, too.

That is what many 'Christians' in Germany.

Many are calling you a coward for blogging anonymously. But I find that interesting considering what the church did 'secretly' to find out your name and then did not tell it to the congregation when they passed the resolution that was really about you. Amazing they did not tell the church what they were doing. Wonder why?


I know why they didn't tell your name. Because they are cowards. I also know that Mac is a coward because he did not contact you when he did find out your name. Instead he sought to ruin you. That is some shepherd they have other there at FBCJax.

Dor Dranoel said...

The people and members who are rebuking Watchdog for his concerns and stand against Mac are a clear reminder of the spiritual and the Scriptually ignorant.With the exception of possibly the epistle of Philemon,every N.T.Book deals with false shepherds,warnings of false shepherds and some form of false doctrines!There is no excuse for some of the bloggers who are coming in torching WD when it is clear that Mac has issues.That so-called apology is nothing but a ruse.I've seen others Pastor use this same method to hopeful mislead and calm the mis-informed.Mac has no more changed than a Leopard can change it's stripes.Mac is a sly and deceptive individual given away by many of his actions and his greed for money,power and prestige.If he was so sorry why did'nt he call the Watchdog and offer to meet with him and there offer and apology?Better yet why not offer the apology right there in front of the congregation and the T.V.audience and state the act that he apologizing for!The very fact that he offers no specifics in his apology again displays a deceptive self consumed,manipulative person who is really the "sociopath"!Sociopathic behavior is displayed by telling one thing to one person(s) or group and another thing to someone else or group.I'll bet you Mac's telling the deacons and other officials one story and then coming to the congregation and others outside of his immediate circle another story!This is what a true sociopath does he tells lies to everybody to cover his deceit.And believe me with "Mac" it's ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!Plain and simply put; Mac is a bad guy!

Anonymous said...

I know an organization that takes anonymous complaints very seriously, especialy when they are the same complaint coming from all over the country. It's called the IRS. I have already filed complaints against the preacher and the cop. I suggest anyone reading this take the time to visit the IRS Website and follow through.
Those who respond with personal damaging ad hominem attacks, to basic logical concerns expose themselves even further, and certainly do not have the clarity to be honest on their taxes.


Sir keep up the good work, you are the true leader of your flock, not to mention your fat payoff from these pigs, from the obvious settlement they will pay to keep this out of court.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:01. I totally agree with you. We should all be contacting the IRS on Tom Rich and Company. Also Christa Brown who is trying to throw FBCJAX and Brunson in the same category as pedophiles.

Anonymous said...

April 12, 2009 9:54 PM - again, what lies have been told about Mac Brunson? What slander (untrue attacks) on him have been made? I agree that IF the WD is lying and slandering, shame on him. But if he is merely asking questions and publishing his concerns about facts and actions of Mac Brunson, why attack him as you are doing?

Remember, the WD is not "god's man", does not take a salary from people's funds they give "to the Lord" and is not looking for any fame or power. He made every effort to stay anonymous to avoid any perception that he had any motives other than letting the church know what Mac was doing.

Why wouldn't Mac now just answer the questions and respond to the concerns? You know why? He can't. Why? It would be so embarrassing and devastating that merely to even ask about it is considered attacking and divisive and slanderous.

The man's actions, if brought into the light of day, would end his career. But to continue to hide his actions, will also end it. Imagine if WD were trying to see credit card receipts for him and his wife. Nothing illegal or immoral I am sure, but enough damage would be done and questions raised that they no longer could lead. "If there is nothing to hide, hide nothing." And no, I don't care that "this is always the way it is done in mega churches." Let's be cutting edge and start being transparent with our congregations and trusting them.

And protecting the flock? Get serious. Did he protect Sheri Klouda, a former member of his? What about Mrs. WD? Did he protect her? No, he called the JSO and made every effort to "shut em down." Go ahead and try to defend this millionairre charlatan (my opinion based on his actions) but the truth is his ability to lead this church in this city is ruined and finished because of his actions. (not the WD blogging about his actions.)

Mac Brunson needs to step down so as not to continue to harm the church. Why doesn't he do so?

New BBC Open Forum said...

"2. It is cowardly people who post blogs and comments and do not sign their name."

Well, "Michael," I don't see your name posted here or anywhere on your blog or the website of the church of which you claim to be "Lead Pastor." Welcome to the "Cowardly People Club"!

Anonymous said...

It got picked up for businessweek online:


http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/news/article.asp?docKey=600-200904121358KRTRIB__BUSNEWS_28150-0GCFH8Q674M3GLV2DNQM1CE79I&params=timestamp%7C%7C04/12/2009%201:58%20PM%20ET%7C%7Cheadline%7C%7CFBC%20blogger%20feels%20privacy%20was%20violated%3A%20Law%20enforcement%20says%20his%20privacy%20rights%20weren't%20violated%2C%20but%20there%20are%20concerns%20about%20the%20investigation.%20%5BThe%20Florida%20Times-Union%2C%20Jacksonville%5D%7C%7CdocSource%7C%7CKnight%20Ridder/Tribune%7C%7Cprovider%7C%7CACQUIREMEDIA&symbol=GOOG.O

Helper said...

Ever heard of the term "Baptist Mafia"?

Well if the shoe fits, wear it.

This minister is just a part of what is really going on in the Baptist faith world. Power and Deception. The Southern Baptist Convention is full of men who are self fulfilling sinners and tares who use the pulpit to push personal agendas and the Bible to make members believe what they say.

Let me say though that not all Pastor are this way. There are some in the Baptist faith who truly care for others and deserve their ministry.

But.......

When we get Pastors who are more concerned about financial gain, personal power, and who personally attack any opposition that questions their authority within the pulpit, I worry.

Then there are those that are proclaiming Christ and his teachings and people who
are absolutely blinded into believing every word as truths who are committed to do nothing for Christ, I worry.

Protecting the sanctity of Christ and his Kingdom is “ a priority" There are some really evil people speaking within these pulpits. And we’re not going to win this or any fight by turning the other cheek.

Those in the Baptist Mafia who push personal agendas, personal wealth and teach false doctrine must be exposed and forced to resign or remove himself from Pastoring any church, anywhere.

They have gotten away with this counterfeit lifestyle for far to long and......

The Truth is Marching on!


There are many other individuals involved with the same type of behavior throughout the ministry.

Anonymous said...

Mac Brunson needs to step down so as not to continue to harm the church. Why doesn't he do so?

April 13, 2009 9:16 AM

Because of the money, the home, the free land, perks, etc. And why should he? He has the support of many blind followers who are more than willing to keep him in high style.

BTW: If anyone wants an inside look into how mega's work, check out Joel Gregory's "Too Great A Temptation: He is a former pastor of FBC Dallas who stepped down because Criswell refused to retire.

I am not promoting Gregory as a person. He was definitely one of them. his book gives insight into how the rich and famous of the mega world are treated and how they live.

His book will also give you insight into the 'world' Brunson comes from at FBC Dallas.

These pastors have become as shrewd as Fortune 500 CEO's negotiating their packages with not only salary, but travel, writing books, speaking engagments, meeting famous people,
etc.

Lots of double dipping for mega church pastors! They have income streams everywhere!

They can even write books on church time and make money! (Don't let them fool you, most keep the royalties)

It is the life of Riley and someone else is paying for it!

Anonymous said...

Finally, no matter what you or any other church members go through, never forget: the Press does NOT love Christians or their churches. EVER.

April 13, 2009 8:01 AM

I have another take on this thought. It is high time that the secular world knows there are Christians out there who are ashamed of the snake oil salesman among us. And are not timid to call them out publicly.

It has nothing to do with whether they like Christians or not. Truth is only important. They can see the rich pastor for themselves. they see them on TV all the time beating folks up for more money while they live like kings. They already think ill of us.

Anonymous said...

What is interesting to me is that Frank Mackesy, who earns $144,296 per year; and Robert Hinson, who earns $61,296 per year; and John Rutherford, who earns $156,741 per year, are spending their time "investigating" the identity of a blogger critical of First Baptist Church. These men hopefully can present to the public some reliable evidence, ANY evidence, that corroborates any "perceived" threat to the church or its leadership that would justify obtaining Google subpoenas against Mr. Rich, Tiffany Croft and a blogger in Tennessee.

And if these men can all have their salaries subject to public scrutiny, why can't Mac Brunson? Why won't Mac Brunson? Isn't he a public figure too? Doesn't he preach on TV and sell his books nationwide? Doesn't he solicit non-profit, tax deductible contributions, not only to the 501(c)(3) he works for, but also for himself and his wife personally?

You see Mac, no one really cares what these folks make. It is when you do all you can to hide it that it raises questions. Peace.

Anonymous said...

"Your satire falls on many a deaf ear."

AND

"All the people that back you up are just ignorant. They know nothing about anything, obviously, because they don't know Mac nor do they go to FBC"

THAT IS BS. Let ME tell you something, the only thing that is falling on deaf ears here is Mac's phony attempts at growing heart!

Look around fool, support for the WD - the truth, abounds - even out in the "world". Mac contributes to the black-eye of Christianity. He's viewed as the evangelical Madoff.

After reading Burleson's new book and all the fallout from Mac's total, unadultered GREED, the total corruption of the SBC is solidified in my mind. As a matter of fact, if it weren't for me being a true convert, I would already be an athiest after witnessing these aforementioned scandals.

Get a clue Mac supporters. You can't gravy-train Mac's moneybags for much longer.

Anonymous said...

If the sanctuary was truly packed and these people gave Mac a standing-o, then you children get what you deserve.

Anonymous said...

AS a member of FBC Jax, I am calling on Mac Brunson to RESIGN immediately. Go teach Old Testament history at SWBTS and work for Paige Patterson. Or go join Johnny Hunt's church and continue to market your sermons and preaching "conferences." You are NOT a pastor and you know it.

Please, RESIGN now, Mr. Brunson, before the depositions start and you completely ruin whatever is left of the ministry downtown that was formerly known as the "miracle of downtown Jacksonville." What took the Lindseys 60 years to build, you have ruined in 3. And nice job in Dallas too. Wow. What next? You going to Woodstock to follow Dr. Hunt and build your brand from that great church?

Bye Mac. Start the countdown clock till you and your family roll out of Jacksonville. Tick, tick, tick... :)

Anonymous said...

From Sunday's paper: "But Shorstein said he is disturbed that Hinson gave the church Rich's name despite finding no wrongdoing and closed the case Nov. 13. This raises free speech issues, Shorstein said.

"I think it would be inappropriate to use the subpoena power to aid a church or any entity ... to stop someone from using their First Amendment privileges," Shorstein said.

It also could be a violation of a federal privacy act, said John Verdi, staff counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington. The organization seeks to draw public attention to digital privacy and civil rights issues.

The 1986 Electronic Communications Privacy Act requires law enforcement to have legitimate criminal concerns or accusations before seeking the identities of users of any electronic media, including blogs, e-mail, text messages and telephones, Verdi said.

According to the act, "investigations are intended to determine whether a crime has been committed ... and aren't typically undertaken to provide information to private individuals or entities, businesses churches or anything like that," Verdi said.

Anonymous said...

Criminologist Concetta Culliver said it's a valid objection.

An officer should never investigate a crime in which he or she "is bound to have a vested interested" in the outcome, said Culliver, who teaches criminal investigation and ethics at Coppin State University in Baltimore.

Efforts should be made to prevent even the perception of a conflict of interest, she said.

"It's his own church and pastor," Culliver said. "That certainly is a big conflict of interest and, in my opinion, unethical."

Anonymous said...

If the sanctuary was truly packed and these people gave Mac a standing-o, then you children get what you deserve.

April 13, 2009 9:48 AM

It is a good thing you were not a citizen of Germany in 1937.

You always follow the crowd?

Anonymous said...

i Know Mac, I was on Staff in Dallas with him..He does not now me however...What I will say is that you are more then likely right about what you are saying..however..I might not agree with how you handled this. God will be the Judge. I will pray for you and Mac both. For Truth to be told and healing to occur. It took me MANY years to get over the hurt that FBC Dallas left on my heart. God has restored what the little Foxes Destroyed, not Because Mac, or any of his Staff..many of which are there at FBC Jax are there...Because GOD is the healer..Alow him to heal you and and your family..Stop handling this in such a way. I know your Hurt..I really DO! I was you! However...This is not the way..Hear me!

Anonymous said...

To Ms. Angela Corey - PLEASE READ CAREFULLY. I wholeheartedly supported you in last fall's election. But this issue and your stance, concerns me greatly. Since you are newly elected, I am sure the power brokers over at FBC JAX are really happy to now KNOW where you stand. (Yes, I realize they helped get you elected and you may feel you "owe" them.) But remember, Ms. Corey, only a few thousand citizens actually attend regularly there, while several hundred thousand of your constituents choose not to for a myriad of reasons. But I hate to say it, but you lost some serious credibility with me and probably the rest of Jacksonville with your weak justifications and statements in Sunday's news column: The article stated

"But Corey defended Hinson's notification of the church." REALLY MS. COREY? YOU DEFEND THIS WITCH HUNT TO GET THE NAME OF THE BLOGGER SO THEY COULD DISCIPLINE HIM AND TRESPASS HIM OFF THE PROPERTY BECAUSE HE BLOGGED HIS OPIINIONS?

"Sometimes you need to know who has access to you, who has been watching you, who has been talking very negatively about you," Corey said. WHAT?? YOU DO REALIZE THAT THIS IS A PASTOR WHO PAYS HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO HAVE PEOPLE "WATCHING HIM" AND GAIN "ACCESS" TO HIM. BUT EVEN IF HE WERE NOT, CAN I USE THE JSO AND YOUR OFFICE TO "KNOW" WHO HAS BEEN TALKING VERY NEGATIVELY ABOUT ME? AND "SOMETIMES" IS THE KEY WORD IN THAT SENTENCE. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THOSE TIMES SINCE NO PERCEIVED THREAT CAN BE SHOWN BY YOUR OFFICE OR BY THE JSO. DOESN'T THERE HAVE TO BE SOME EVIDENCE OF A THREAT, OR AT LEAST A SWORN STATEMENT FROM A SUPPOSED VICTIM? OR WILL YOU AND YOUR OFFICE GO AFTER ANYONE WHO SAYS NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT YOU WITHOUT REQUIRING ANY BASIS OR SHOWING ANY JUSTIFICATION? THAT IS REALLY SCARY AND UNACCEPTABLE IN THIS CITY. I GUESS NO ONE WILL DARE CRITICIZE YOU WILL THEY, MS. COREY, KNOWING YOUR PHILOSOPHY OF HOW YOU WILL USE YOUR POWER.

"In an age when church shootings and other incidents are commonplace, ministers and law enforcement must be sensitive to every possible threat, she said." REALLY? IS IT POSSIBLE THAT MR. RICH AND HIS WIFE MIGHT SHOOT SOMEBODY? DO YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION THAT MADE YOU THINK HE WAS A "POSSIBLE THREAT?" IF SO, PLEASE REVEAL IT, AT LEAST TO MR. RICH PRIVATELY. IF NOT, YOUR SILENCE IS DEAFENING.

Besides, Corey said, imagine what would happen if the officer didn't reveal the name in a similar situation.

"If a shooting occurred, then the media would be asking why [law enforcement] didn't warn the pastor." REALLY? IF A SHOOTING OCCURS, PEOPLE WOULD BE ASKING WHY THE LAW ENFORCEMENT DIDN'T DEAL WITH A BLOGGER? MS. COREY, THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE: IF A SHOOTING WERE TO OCCUR, I AM GOING TO BE VERY UPSET THAT THE JSO AND SA OFFICE WERE INVESTIGATING A LONG TIME MEMBER WHO WAS BLOGGING INSTEAD OF PROTECTING US FROM A SHOOTER. WEAK DEFENSE, MS. COREY, VERY WEAK.

Ms. Corey, with all due respect, it looks like you have put yourself and YOUR credibility right in the middle of this mess. SAD. VERY SAD.

Michael said...

my name is linked to my website, where there is an about me page. you'll also find our church website, with my bio and contact information.

listen...i am not at ALL defending what may or may not have happened at FBC Jax, my childhood and teenage church. The allegations on this website are serious. I am wise enough to know that there are often two sides to every story, and it's likely that there is enough blame to go all the way around here.

But calling the IRS, getting dirty laundry in the newspaper, and fighting to be right no matter the consequences is not good for the Kingdom or the Gospel.

Teachers, pastors, and preachers are held to a higher standard, and God is our judge.

For the love of God, move on. Enough has been said. Enough has been written. It's one thing to tarnish the name of a great church or of a person...but this is tarnishing the name of Christ.

Anonymous said...

"It took me MANY years to get over the hurt that FBC Dallas left on my heart."

Me, too. I still have alot of resentment for the people of the church. VERY hurtful and hateful people when I was there (not on staff) I think Mac contributed to the tone but they are notorious in this city for their crap attitude. Not a good a reputation.

Anonymous said...

Churches are always packed on Easter. And I dare say NONE of them other than Mac had their preacher stand up, declare himself a sinner and then get a standing ovation from people who don't know what in the world he was talking about. That is why we are referred to as gullible sheep. Once somebody stands up we all follow. My pastor just preached the gospel and invited people to come to Jesus. No standing ovation for him...and no job/salary for his wife and kids, and no land gift, and no changinig of the by-laws, and no calling any of his members "sociopaths" and...

Well, you get the picture.

Anonymous said...

It is a good thing you were not a citizen of Germany in 1937.

You always follow the crowd?

April 13, 2009 10:19 AM

I don't get your response. I was saying that if these sheeple can still come out in numbers for this scam artist, then they get what they deserve.

Anonymous said...

Michael - we can't move on since NOT ONE QUESTION has been answered. Some say that is a reason to move on. I say that is the ONLY reason we can't. When the man answers questions, we will all move on. If he purposes in his heart never to answer any questions, we will never stop blogging about him. Hopefully, the lawyers who depose him will get these answers under oath, they will be posted on the web for all to see, then this blog will go away. Or Mac could call the WD and answer his questions without the need for legal proceedings? Or better yet, Mac could just answer the questions to his congregation and ignore the WD? No, that would be way to easy. Pride and arrogance rule out that option.

By the way, if you don't like this post let me tell you now that I am not perfect, I am a sinner, and I am only trying to protect the sheeps' rights to ask questions. Now, let's pray for forgiveness.

(Is that the best you and Maurilio and Gina Ford could come up with Mac?)

Anonymous said...

WD - just curious. Any word from Kevin King or John Blount? They were "man enough" to hand you the trespass warnings and they were "compelled" to seek discipline against you so I was just curious...any word from these "reverends?" What about Detective Hinson? Has he contacted you yet? What about Mac? He call to tell you he sinned and is not perfect? No? What about the drummer? Is he worried about any of this? No? I didn't think so.

IT IS WRITTEN said...

Michael you stated:: "Teachers, pastors, and preachers are held to a higher standard, and God is our judge."....You are absolutely correct!!Therefore based on your own admission here.Should then because Mac who is held to the higher standard not then have sought out his misguided brother and sought reconciliation?...Should Mac then on record call Dr.Dog a sociopath?...Should Mac on record answered the greivances presented by Dr.Dog?...We challenge and examine everything our President does,but Mac can't be questioned because he is a Pastor?......Michael you futher stated...."For the LOVE of God, move on. Enough has been said. Enough has been written. It's one thing to tarnish the name of a great church or of a person...but this is tarnishing the name of Christ"......Thats exacltly why Dr.Dog started this blog and endured the persecution of the ignorant because he loves God and truth and transparency!!!.Secondly Mac has done a pretty good job by himself of tarnishing God's name with his response to reporter Brumley and this witch hunt he sent Det.Hinson and others on...Peter said that judgment will start at the house of God!!!..And I believe many so-called houses of God are in for a rude awaking!!!...Michael last you stated....."listen...I am not at ALL defending what may or may not have happened at FBC Jax, my childhood and teenage church. The allegations on this website are serious. I am wise enough to know that there are often two sides to every story, and it's likely that there is enough blame to go all the way around here"....."Please explain to me based on what you know,what share of the blame does Dr.Dog bear,considering all he initially did was to ask questions about things being done by this Pastor?....And how much of the blame does Brunson bear?...Are you just another Pastor defending a Pastor who you know nothing about,nor have you seen this Pastor in action???.

Anonymous said...

Micheal....

Wow, a lead "PASTOR" who loves "HARRY POTTER"


"A Harry Potter Family?"

I just love reading them. "Michael" introduced them to me years ago when only the first two were out.
I was hooked immediately. You see, when I read a Harry Potter book, I can’t put it down until
I’m finished. These books have created quite a controversy over the years. I for one, support the
reading of these books. I believe that they are very well-written stories which encourage young
readers to use their imagination. The underlying premise of good vs. evil is represented very well
and I think that those who read them gain a greater understanding of what it means to be loyal,
trustworthy, noble, and honest. The values of friendship, honor, family and teamwork are also
displayed by the main characters.

Who loves to party in Las Vegas

"A Gaming Family?"

What GOSPEL are you selling???

Anonymous said...

Can you sue him for slander (Calling you a sociopath?)

New BBC Open Forum said...

My bad, Michael. If you dig deep enough you do eventually find your name. I just didn't see it anywhere on your blog.

Remember this? Michael Lukaszewski is "Lead Pastor" of Oak Leaf Church.

Michael's done a lot of innovative things to "market" his church. (Kudos to you for starting your own church instead of hijacking an existing one.) I thought the Easter tattoo service was particularly cutting edge.

Michael's a lot like Mac Brunson and Steve Gaines when it comes to tolerating criticism. Mac stomps, Steve beats the sheep from the pulpit, and Michael? Well, Michael just tells people to shove it and shove it again.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I confess to reading and enjoying the Harry Potter series, too, and for the most part agree with Anon 11:38's assessment of them. I don't think they're sermon fodder though (pro or con).

Anonymous said...

anon april 13 10:55....I laughed out loud.
I wish someone would psychoanalyze Mac Brunson going for the standing O yesterday for me. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Let's see - a blog gets started about me by some "anonymous coward." I have trusted men monitor it and try to keep it from being widely read. I also try to shut it down. I also attack its credibility since it is anonymous. Fast forward to Easter Sunday. The blog is no longer anonymous, the blog is linked to front page news articles, it was the lead story on two local news stations, and the blog is getting read more than ever before and has more credibility than ever before.

So, who do I fire first for these results? John Blount? Kevin King? Maurilio Amorim? The drummer?

Anonymous said...

ok, I just saw the video. What in the world is he trying to say?

Doug said...

Jeremiah 23:1-2

Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture! saith the LORD.

Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed My people; Ye have scattered My flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold,

I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Move on Pastor, Move on and let this Church heal!

Anonymous said...

The comments are just as indicative of the brainwashing and control as the pastor. I am proud of you and those who challenge unqualified authority and suppression. This 'church' is a business, about money and control, and has no place for the religious. Find your path from within and look for contradictions.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I just saw the video. What in the world is he trying to say?"

I screwed up.

Now the whole country knows I screwed up.

I'm ticked off.

Stop clapping and sit down so I can get out of here!

Stomp.

At least that's my interpretation.

Anonymous said...

Can't wait for Matt to weigh-in on this one. We LOVE you brother!

Thy Peace said...

Stop Baptist Predators > FBC-Jax shows circle-the-wagons pattern

As reported in the Florida Times-Union, a Jacksonville police detective used the power of the Sheriff's Office to subpoena records from Google to identify an anonymous blogger who has been critical of Rev. Mac Brunson, the pastor at First Baptist Church of Jacksonville.

The church made a complaint about “possible criminal overtones” on the blog, and the police detective launched an investigation. As it so happens, the police detective is also a member of FBC-Jacksonville and a “body guard” for pastor Brunson.

Conflict of interest? Uhhhh…. yeah…. it sure looks that way to me.

G. M. Palmer said...

Mr. Rich,

Did you first consult with the pastor, then with a group, as Jesus recommends?

If so, then your blog is certainly within the bounds of right action -- treating Rev. Brunson as if he were a tax collector, etc.

It has always pained me to see such collusion between the churches of North Florida and the servants of Rome. I mean Jacksonville. While I would encourage every member of the police force to attend church, acting with the violence of the state in defense of that church was fairly well forbidden by Jesus at Gethsemane.

It is worse to see that a church can pay $300,000 to a pastor yet there are still homeless in Jacksonville. There are about 20,000 people who are homeless at some point in time in this town and while $250,000 of the pastor's salary wouldn't fix the problem, it would likely do a good job of feeding the hungry. Perhaps they could sleep in the parking garage? It's surely large enough to house a great number of people, and the homeless could help provide security.

Oh well. I doubt much, if anything will change. I pray that it will, that instead of saying "I'm not perfect," that we can say "father forgive me, for I have sinned."

Anonymous said...

After reading about this in the TU and now looking at this blog, I have two thoughts:

1) Why would any sane person want to be a member of this cult? I mean, "church?"

2) JSO clearly overstepped its bounds and is in for some hefty legal fees. Oops, I mean I am, the taxpayer. Great.

Anonymous said...

No, Watchdog did NOT meet with the church to talk about his feelings and opinions. He was too much of a coward. If he had followed the Biblical standard of taking your concerns to the person directly, none of this would have happened. He would have gotten answers, he might have even gotten an apology, but he decided to stoop down to middle school level and start a ridiculous blog to voice his concerns. How mature and wise. Props to you.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"He would have gotten answers, he might have even gotten an apology, but he decided to stoop down to middle school level and start a ridiculous blog to voice his concerns."

No, the only difference is he would have received trespass warnings sooner. If anyone thinks Mac or any of these guys is ever going to answer questions honestly or be accountable to their congregations in any way, you are delusional.

Anonymous said...

April 13, 2009 2:02 PM - no need to speculate what Mac might have said had the WD gone to him. We now KNOW. He would have "shut em down!" He would have called him a sociopath and unstable. He would lie about him and slander him, he might even make up false criminal allegations and try to link him somehow to the "perceived threats", he would have banned him and his wife...assuming he could find a JSO "detective" who would actually play along.

And hasn't it occurred to you that maybe Mac should have gone to the WD back during Thanksgiving? Months before the pastor's conference? And are you telling me that even though they all knew who the WD was during the PC, not one of those men in town for the conference told Mac to contact the WD, or offered to go with Mac to meet with the WD? Instead, they waited until it was over and then Blount began contacting the WD "compelled" to "discipline' him.

But yeah, I guess you are right. If only the WD had just gone to Mac this could all have been prevented. Gee whiz. I bet a lot of people sure wish the WD had done that. Golly gee, Mac would have been able to get this taken care of. (Of course, Mac had no role in this getting to this point did he? Nothing HE could have done to prevent this? Right? And you are not about to email Mac and ask HIM why didn't he go to the WD are you? Of course not.)

Anonymous said...

April 13, 2009 2:02 PM - based on your post, YOU are the coward. Post your name coward. Post it. Come on. Chicken. Ha ha, you are a coward, na na na na na. Anon April 13, 2002 is a coward. Afraid to post their name on a blog. Ha ha. Coward, coward, coward.

How does that sound anon? Pretty good huh? Pretty much what your post sounded like, you punk, bully, coward.

Anonymous said...

anon 2:02 - How would the WD know he was supposed to go to the pastor in accordance with Matthew 18 when that passage had never been preached at FBC by Mac Brunson prior to any bylaw changes that included forming a discipline committee? Too much time hopping and skipping around the old testament, taking verses out of context, and telling inaccurate historical stories for mac to have time to preach verse by verse through the New Testament.

Anonymous said...

Friends, This whole situation is not a Matthew 18 offense. Please study that whole passage starting at verse 1. The whole chapter is in context. Not just a few verses.

First of all, Mac did not sin personally against Tom. To say that Tom needed to go to Mac privately is to not understand what scripture teaches. Wrong behavior by elders must be publicly rebuked. Like John rebuked Diotrephes. Like Paul rebuked Peter.

There are many who will not even understand that Mac had very wrong behavior for an elder. They think he must be right because of his title. There are many out there that think that way than we can imagine.

Many have never met a true elder and would not recognize one. If they did, they would think he was a loser because he does not fit their paradigm.

Changing the bylaws without congregational input and a vote should have been their first clue there was big trouble even if they dismissed the land gift and other behavioral problems. (I personally am not impressed with Mac's preaching but that is another topic)

Personally, hiring a church consultant who 'mystery' shops churches should have been another clue. Sadly, for most, it wasn't. That is the norm in mega churches who have lost their way.

The problem is that in a mega church there are no checks and balances. Very few know what is really going on backstage. And very few really know scripture.

Some people are very much like lemmings and follow titles but that is not a true Body of Christ.

A mega church, due to it's size and structure cannot help but become a business organization. Therefore, it starts thinking and acting like a business organization. The difference is that even business organizations have limits legally in how they can treat folks and how they must report financials.

Churches do not. They are exempt from many of the boundaries of propriaty. So, the very system starts creating monsters with few boundaries and the pew sitters go along because they really do believe that God is blessing them because of their material success and because folks join (they love the programs and ear tickling sermons) and that God gave them the title.

I think that Tom saw what these folks were made of and that is why he stayed anonymous for so long. He was right to do so because it was the message not the messenger that was important. But Mac and company only proved Tom right in the way they have responded since they found out his name. A true shepherd would have contacted him right away after receiving his private information so heavy handedly. And come clean. As a matter of fact, a true shepherd would have told the Body what they were doing to get not only Tom's private information but the private information of Tiffany croft and BBC. But they did not. So much is hidden. So much is secret. When Christians are to be transparant and elders are to be above reproach to the 'outside'. See 1 Tim.

Matt

Anonymous said...

On another note, I am another person who would like to see the police reports where Mac or Debbie reported the stalking and mail theft.

I would also like to see the police reports listing the alleged crimes of Tiffany Croft and BBC.

Matt

Anonymous said...

This guy cracks me up. Can't you folks tell you're being scammed by Brunson? He sounds so fake when he preaches. LOL. Sheep to the slaughter.

I sure am glad this got put in the Times Union or I would have missed all this fun.

Still and all though, all of this boils down to "Did Detective Hinson do something unethical?" Yes, he did, and I hope Mr. Rich gets his day in court to see Hinson reprimanded at the least.

Anonymous said...

Ha-ha! I just watched Brunson. He semi-apologized then made up a big excuse about protecting you. Yeah, WD, you were sure hurting the church.

I don't do the Christian thing anymore, and clowns like Brunson are a huge reason why. But since I did do the Christian thing at one time, I do know the score.

Watch that vid WD has linked. That guy is so in the flesh. He is pathetic. His wife could go on all day about his faults and errors? He actually said that.

My guess would be that anyone pastoring a mega-church would be a bit more sanctified than that. What happened to the sanctifying power of the spirit? I mean, I realize no one is perfect, but this guy should be a cut above, yes? He's pastoring one of the biggest churches in THE COUNTRY and his wife can go on and on all day about his faults and sins? LOL. You folks have been duped. No wonder Mac's got this whole thing hosed up. He'd do well to take lessons from Wade Burleson. I read his stuff, WD, after seeing mention of it here on your blog. That's how you handle a situation like this. Brunson is either completely evil or a total moron. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and go with "moron."

After reading Wade's stuff, he almost makes me miss church. Almost. Wade's blog, here http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2009/03/lessons-in-dealing-with-disgruntled.html should be required reading for all pastors.

Anonymous said...

2:02. You are clueless. You have no idea of what you are speculating here. Have you thought about the concerns WD has exposed? If so, none of them bother you? Matt 18 has no revelance here one way or the other. The grieved party according to the dialouge expressed here by Brunson supporters is that the WD should have gone to see the pastor. Matt 18 deals with sin and sin alone not simple questions that could and should have been answered long ago. Nothing would have come of that meeting other than to remove WD immediately. As most who have, in any way, questioned or indicated disagreement with Mac and the direction of the church have found out. You just don't question leadership...period.

What has happened has happened for a reason. Mac and some men of the church believed they could embarrass WD enough that the blogsite would go away. Just the opposite has occured. And used city government to do it. Its like a small brush fire has now spread into a full blown fire storm. It will only get worse now and unfortunately this beacon of the old lighthouse is getting dimmer by the day. Those on the outside are looking for a firebreak. When will it happen? Thats the $64,000 question.

Anonymous said...

Matt, aka, Ted Haggart, why don't you fly to Jacksonville and have a personal meeting with Brunson since you are such a spiritually reformed former sheep fleecer. I am sure with your credentials he will gladly give you an audience so that you can set him on the proper path.

Frankly, I am sick of all of the hero worship thrown your way from people who do not even know who you are.

Anonymous said...

GHOST, since you are a member at FBC, why don't you go meet with Team Brunson in person and share your concerns?

Anonymous said...

For the record, Shorstein is out of office and his opinion is not relevant, unless Tom is going to hire him to represent him in a lawsuit.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:37 was on staff all right. He was cleaning the urinals.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:50 If you want him to resign then grow a set and go see him personally and tell him how you feel. If you cannot do that, then your options are to move to Tom's new church or somewhere else.

Frankly, all of you namby, pamby, alledged members of FBC need to grow up and act like adults and confront Brunson personally or move on and do something else.

Anonymous said...

All who side with this silly watchdog are just ridiculous. I agree with Mac that WD IS a sociopath. For someone to be SO obsessed with FBC to tape every service on his TV and listen to every word that the pastor says, and of course, show it to everyone on the blog on his side, obviously has no life. For someone with so much hatred against FBC, why would he "torture" himself with even wanting to watch the services on TV, even if it were for "blackmail?" Hmm, sounds like a definite sociopath to me. You would think at least for Easter he would put this aside, but that is not so. Instead of focusing the day on what Christ has done for WD, and his family, he had to obsess himself with watching the FBC service. That doesn't sound very logical.

Anonymous said...

I think I know why Mac was so "emotional" Sunday AM. He is reading the Times Union and the comments of those that see his use of city government as unacceptable. I certainly hope our city officials come down on the right side of this issue. I would not sink with FBCJ leadership, in this matter.

Congratulations to the TU for it's fair reporting.

Anonymous said...

ALL of you FBC members still living in the past, get over it. Whether there was Mac Brunson or someone else in the pulpit things will be done differently.

That is what Vines did when Dr. Lindsay died. He could have brought in a co-pastor to become the pastor when he retired, but HE DID NOT WANT TO!

And when Brunson leaves someday, the next guy will also do things different than you might like.

That is how things are and will be in the future.

Anonymous said...

To Anon. 2:37

First of all, you just totally contradicted yourself by saying "Post your name coward. Post it. Come on. Chicken. Ha ha, you are a coward, na na na na na." Well if you check YOUR post, you did the same thing... Post as anonymous. What kind of idiot would tell someone that they are a coward by coming up anonymous, yet you do the same thing.

Second of all, all you're doing is embarassing yourself by saying nah nah nah nah nah. Haha middle schoolers act more mature than that.

Anonymous said...

Whereas: I think Mac and the boys got caught in their own "whereas".

Anonymous said...

All who side with this silly watchdog are just ridiculous. I agree with Mac that WD IS a sociopath. For someone to be SO obsessed with FBC to tape every service on his TV and listen to every word that the pastor says, and of course, show it to everyone on the blog on his side, obviously has no life. For someone with so much hatred against FBC, why would he "torture" himself with even wanting to watch the services on TV, even if it were for "blackmail?" Hmm, sounds like a definite sociopath to me. You would think at least for Easter he would put this aside, but that is not so. Instead of focusing the day on what Christ has done for WD, and his family, he had to obsess himself with watching the FBC service. That doesn't sound very logical.

Sick of Alledged Members said...

Anon 9:50. Please resign your membership. FBC does not need people like you and your husband at the church. Perhaps you could go start a new church with Tom Rich as your minister of information.

I say bring on the lawsuit. You can even help Tom pay for it. That is the only way things will be settled.

Opps, that won't settle anything because EVERYONE, AND I MEAN EVERYONE has already made up there minds and no matter what happens in a lawsuit everyone will continue to believe what they want!

Opinions are like armpits and elbows. Everybody has one. All I see are folks opinions. None of the alleged members at FBC have gone to Brunson or anyone else. All they do is blog anonymously what a piece of @#*"+_(% Mac Brunson is.

Frankly, as a long time member of FBC, I am sick of you anonymous bloggers who want nothing more than to bring down Brunson.

So, have the courage of your convictions and don't send an anonymous email or letter, but set an appointment and go to Brunson eyeball to eyeball or go and join another fellowship.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Sick of Alleged Members! You hit it right on the nose!

And to Wd...

"You're familiar with the old written law, 'Love your friend,' and its unwritten companion, 'Hate your enemy.' I'm challenging that. I'm telling you to love your enemies. Let them bring out the best in you, not the worst. When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer, for then you are working out of your true selves, your God-created selves. This is what God does. He gives his best—the sun to warm and the rain to nourish—to everyone, regardless: the good and bad, the nice and nasty. If all you do is love the lovable, do you expect a bonus? Anybody can do that. If you simply say hello to those who greet you, do you expect a medal? Any run-of-the-mill sinner does that. In a word, what I'm saying is, Grow up. You're kingdom subjects. Now live like it. Live out your God-created identity. Live generously and graciously toward others, the way God lives toward you." -Matthew 5:43-48

Anonymous said...

Matt, aka, Ted Haggart, why don't you fly to Jacksonville and have a personal meeting with Brunson since you are such a spiritually reformed former sheep fleecer. I am sure with your credentials he will gladly give you an audience so that you can set him on the proper path.

Frankly, I am sick of all of the hero worship thrown your way from people who do not even know who you are.

April 13, 2009 4:12 PM


Brother, I am having a hard time understanding this comment. Is this supposed to be an insult? I appreciate the sentiment, though, but I am not that spiritual. Anyone can know correct doctrine if they want. The hard part is living it.

Matt

Anonymous said...

Christa Brown,I commend your wok on sexual abuse, but you weighing in on something that you know very little about is troubling.

As an attorney, you should know he la better than most. Why you wish to meddle in the affairs at FBC and try to relate Mac Brunson on your website as some type of sexual predator is disgusting. This event has nothing to do with what you promote on your website.

Why not stick to the great cause you support and focus on that area which frankly could use even more.

If you think Tom Rich is such in the right, then why don't you leave Austin and come to Florida to represent him instead of blogging?

Anonymous said...

I have seen people thrown out or at least "encouraged" to leave churches for a lot less than what this preacher has done. Even at FBCJ. In my opinion he has split this church, and he knows it. I would not want to face God with that, and try to explain it. How could you possibly defend that. Ego can certainly do it's damage. If I was guilty of this, I would spend the rest of my life begging God to forgive me.

Anonymous said...

I'm tired of reading comments from people who say that WD should have gone and talked to Mac one-on-one. That's a completely ridiculous thing to suggest, and anyone suggesting it has no clue how these megachurches work.

Megachurch pastors are completely unapproachable. The place multiple layers of intermediaries between themselves and the common people to insulate themselves from having to interact with the man in the street. There is no way for someone like WD to contact them directly. They have people who screen their email, mail, and phone calls.

There is practically no way to schedule a one-on-one meeting with a megachurch pastor. If you don't believe me, try calling up FBC Jax (forget calling Mac personally because he won't give out his number to anyone not part of his inner circle) and trying to schedule a personal meeting with Mac. The secretary will immediately start grilling you about what you want to meet with Mac about with the goal of diverting you into meeting with one of the "lower" staff members.

New BBC Open Forum said...

To the first anon 4:12:

Why don't you tell us exactly what Matt said that's wrong instead of merely hurling insults. Otherwise, you're just being a troll. But somehow, I think you already knew that.

Also, why don't all you anons either register with Blogger or use a unique name/URL? You can remain just as anonymous as you are now, but at least people can tell which anon is saying what!

Anonymous said...

... but set an appointment and go to Brunson eyeball to eyeball or go and join another fellowship.

April 13, 2009 4:36 PM

Ha. Good luck. Maybe if you told him you were delivering a large check in person, he might actually see you.

On second thought...

My guess is he is being more accessible since the newspaper story came out. So, now may just be the time. But, it won't do any good. See, he is not perfect or infallible so he cannot stop being who he has shown us he really is.

Anonymous said...

Instead of focusing the day on what Christ has done for WD, and his family, he had to obsess himself with watching the FBC service. That doesn't sound very logical.

April 13, 2009 4:31 PM

What is illogical is that even with the facts you think Mac is qualified to be an elder. Read 1 Timothy. One must be above reproach to the 'outside' world to be an elder.

michael said...

so much pride...

Anonymous said...

I am anon 9:50 - and no I won't be resigning my membership. I will stay and keep the heat on this charlatan until he resigns or is "called" somewhere else. The WD is tame and full of restraint when it comes to me. I like to blog using profanity and attack personally as much as I can. I am no nice guy, family man, long time member who just has some questions like the WD. I am a real SOB who will blog relentlessly day and night until I get answers. And if the next preacher decides to live on Amelia Island for his first year, and accepts $307K land gifts, and puts his wife and son on staff, and lives in direct conflict with advice he gives in his guidebook and starts teaching history lessons from the pulpit, then yes, I will be confronting him eyeball to eyeball, or via email or however I choose and if he bows up and ignores my concerns, then I will blog relentlessly. Let the next pastor be warned: If you want to come here and accept the large compensation package and prestige that comes with this job, be open and transparent or expect to be blogged about. Mac has ruined it for all who will follow. Unless its the drummer. He isn't worried about any discipline committee or about any blogs. And none of us ever called Mac a piece of %&*%# like you just did. Those are your words, not ours. :)

Anonymous said...

Shorstein's opinion is very relevant. Stay tuned young man, stay tuned.

Anonymous said...

All i will say is it ia a sad day watch dog you dont have any thing to do with your time then this. Try to pray and go to church O but you Have been told you and your wife can not come to fbc and you have been kicked out of westside I am sure you will not post this. but I know you will read this and just remember one thing I know who you are!!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Sick of Alledged (sic) Members,

You seem to have the inside track. Could you ask Mac to call the Watchdog to set up a meeting? After all, Mac's got all of Watchdog's personal information now.

peter said...

Brunson makes $300,000 a year? What about those vows of poverty?

Anonymous said...

Ghost I cant beleave for one sec you are a member at my church and if you are you should leave and try to find a church that will put up with you you must be a single mother also I dont know of a man that would put up with you. If you dont like MY Church then Leave!!!!!!

WD is a stalker said...

News flash:

If you are going so far as to track down and get copies of a speeding ticket someone got, then you have crossed a line of sanity and are officially a stalker.

Anonymous said...

There is a definite upside to all of this...you get to see what kind of people you have been attending church with for so many years. It usually takes something like this to see what is really in their hearts. And you are seeing quite a dose of it here with all the insults.

It is so easy to plaster on the fake smile and play church at mega's.

But I want to ask some why they think this is not anyone's business outside of FBCJax. Since Mac and friends decided to subpeona Tiffany Croft and BBC private records, they made it the business of others outside FBCJax.

Where are the police reports? Do any FBCJax members know?

Junkster said...

Michael said...
As a former member of FBC Jax who grew up under Calvin Carr's ministry...

1. When pastors, churches and Christians are trashed in local papers, God is not honored and the Kingdom is not advanced. This entire situation brings embarrassment to the name of Christ.

2. It is cowardly people who post blogs and comments and do not sign their name.

April 13, 2009 6:16 AM


Wel, imagine that -- another pastor who thinks it is bad to call out a pastor's bad behavior! What a shocker!

Oops -- I almost forgot to sign my name. Wait a sec, on second thought I think I'll just remain an anonymous coward.

Can't y'all just feel the love these pastors show??

Ghost said...

Good grief, my comments must have certainly struck a nerve. All of the Brunsonites are suddenly calling me out. Notice that none of them addressed any of the questions I asked about Mac, they just insult me and lash out with anger(remind you of anyone?).

Anon 5:49, I must say that was the first time in my life I've ever been called a single mom. And I'm not sure if there is any man who would put up with me, I've never tried that out. Remember, it is WATCHDOG who is the closeted homosexual, not me, don't you listen to the wise words of your pastor?

Please explain how First Baptist is "your" church as you so proudly proclaimed. Isn't First Baptist the Lord's church? I guess the ownership is up for grabs now since Mac ran Him right out the door.

Junkster said...

michael said...
so much pride...

April 13, 2009 5:12 PM


Indeed!

Junkster said...

Anonymous said...
Ghost I cant beleave for one sec you are a member at my church and if you are you should leave and try to find a church that will put up with you you must be a single mother also I dont know of a man that would put up with you. If you dont like MY Church then Leave!!!!!!

April 13, 2009 5:49 PM


So much love for a fellow family member in Christ ... Just makes me wanna starting singing "Pass It On"...

New BBC Open Forum said...

FYI, I know for a fact Watchdog didn't watch the service yesterday. He was attending his new church with his family. Watchdog did not record, edit, or post that video clip.

Now... troll on, trolls!

New BBC Open Forum said...

It seems the ease with which one is able to obtain PUBLIC records in Duval County varies depending on who you are or who you know.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for exposing the wrongdoings of this preacher who is obviously not Christlike.

Anonymous said...

News Flash - I don't know about the Watchdog, but I like looking up all kinds of things about famous celebrities and anyone who is television, radio and the INSP network. Their property appraisals, property deeds, speeding tickets, any criminal history, abuses at past churches, and what others are saying about them on the web. Count me in. And that must be a busy cop on Mac's street. I notice Adrian Soud picked up a ticket one Sunday afternoon at the exact same location. Hmmm. Maybe Adrian Soud is the stalker. After all, we now have proof positive he was on Mac's street that Sunday afternoon. Do you think Detective Hinson will investigate him. What was he doing on that street at that time? Like Angela Corey said, sometimes we need to know who is on our street.

Anonymous said...

April 13, 2009 5:54 PM - are YOU stalking the Watchdog? It seems you are now stalking him to see who he is stalking. (I am so glad the youngsters decided to get on the blog, it adds entertainment to us all.) Keep posting. It really helps shed light on Team Brunson and what the church has become and what kind of people are attending down there.

Anonymous said...

Remember - don't feed the trolls. They show up occasionally, a few of them just to say outrageous things and get responses. Let them post and if they ever say anything meaningful in defense of all that Mac has done, then certainly feel free to engage them. But mostly they will just be attacking the WD and others and not offering any real defense of the charlatan millionaire Mac.

Anonymous said...

April 13 - did WD really do something like that? How do you know that? How many copies did he get? What did he do with those copies. Why didn't they go ahead and arrest him if he did? This is outrageous behavior and definitely fits (NOT) the definition of a stalker. He must be outted and stopped if he did such a thing. I wonder why the city posts such documents and then allows people to stalk them by reading their tickets. What purpose is there in that? The city needs to shut down their public records search now, or else Mac will have Ms. Angela Corey, John Rutherford and Frank Mackesy look into it. And are YOU now stalking the stalker? Uh oh. Am I stalking you by asking these questions? Or am I attacking you. I must find out who you are. I guess I need to subpoena the records to uncover your IP address now. I am perceiving a threat in your post.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I am so glad the youngsters decided to get on the blog.... "My thoughts exactly... although "glad" might not be my first choice of words. Hopefully tomorrow's a school day and they'll have to go to bed soon.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous April 13,2009 4:24PM
Under Dr. Lindsay:
Attendace increased in church and sunday school.
Tithes and Offerings increased and the church knew EVERY Sunday what was given the previous Sunday.
Buildings and parking garages were built to accomadate the increase in attendance,money raised before buildings are built. Move into buildings debt free.
Church buys property in Hilliard. Builds cabins and dinning hall for members to use for church activities and campouts.
Chest of Joash was succesfull,budget for the coming year met.
Pastors Conference became an annual event. Saw increase in attendence every year.
Dr. Lindsay writes numerous phamplets that are distibuted free throughout the church.
Under Dr. Vines:
Attendance starts to decrease in both church and sunday school.
Tithes and Offerings decrease and amount given the previous Sunday is no longer published.
Childrens building is built. Money is raised before building is built. Move into building debt free.
Construction to start on new Senior Citizens building. Project halted and latter abandoned for lack of funds.
Property at Hilliard put up for sale, no takers.
Chest of Joash was succesfull,budget met for the comming year.
Pastors Conferance a success. Saw record crowds.
Dr. Vines writes numerous books,many on the christian bookstores best sellers list.
Under Dr. Brunson:
Attendance in church and sunday school increase for the first few months then gradually start to decline,parking garages 3 & 4 sunday mornings half empty.
Tithes and Offerings declining,last report from Dr. Brunson 100,000 behind budget. No report is given on tithes and offerings.
Church starts school. School borrows 500,000 from church. Move into school NOT debt free.Dr. Brunson also left First Baptist Dallas in debt.
Chest of Joash a success for the first 2 years,3rd year a flop. No report of amount given. Budget not raised from previous year for lack of commitments.
Pastors Conferance numbers decline dramatically.
Dr. Brunson writes a book entitled "New Guidebook for Pastors" detailing advice on how to develope their God-called profession,unfortunatly Dr. Brunson doesn't go by the same rules that he laid out in his own book.
So as for living in the past,I'll take the good ole days anytime over the nasty now and now.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Rich, I have been a member of FBC Jax since 1983, which was the same year Dr. Vines joined. In 1986, at 18 yrs of age, I quit attending, and never went back until the spring of 2004 (just after becoming born-again).

This being said, I just want to know if you have any idea of when "enough will be enough"?

Since you are no longer a member, can you just tell me when you will be satisfied with the hurt you have caused hundreds, if not thousands of what was your family?

It is one thing to want hurt upon the Brunson's, but how many times have you ever thought about the hurt you have brought upon the people who were your brothers and sisters?

Your attacks have hurt many of us, because your attacks on Dr. Brunson are attacks on the church, and the church is the body of Christ made up of its members. You have single handedly been attacking Christ through your attacks on the church - does that not bother you as a "Christian"?

Honestly, I am very glad that you were exposed, because anyone who goes through THIS MUCH of a hate FBC, & especially hate Mac Brunson campaign - really comes across as a psychopath. Really! This is insane what you have done!

After the Baptist pastor getting shot and killed preaching at the pulpit about 10 or 12 weeks ago I guess, I am very glad that you were exposed, and perhaps it was God's will even. I am not saying that I think you are capable of such violence, but seriously pal, this blog is nuts, ya know, crazy like lunacy. You seriously seem like some who has completely lost [it].

The question is, do you still think that you are doing God's will with all of this vengance? Do you think that your actions are being lead by God, or otherwise (you know what I mean)? Do you honestly think God has been pleased with your attacks on HIS children, the members of FBC Jax?

Thankfully, you were not part of Bascom Kurtz's SS class, or I would have been even more saddened by you - to have even known you. We are guys that are true brothers who love each other through Christ, and if you had been one of them, I would have been sickened. I can only wonder how hurt your own SS class mates feel now that they know you were behind all of this viciousness. What a shame.

If you are truly a Christian, you need to consider what God's will is, in this hate filled assault on your former brothers and sisters (in Christ). How much longer will this onslaught last for us? We are ready for you to move on and let us be without your vengance any longer.

We love our pastor, regardless of your beliefs. Please, move on and leave us be so that we may focus more on Christ Jesus and no longer your hateful rhetoric.

Kevin said...

I think it is funny that there are people here that clam they are FBC members but dont have the B@##S to put there name with there comments.
But you call your self Church Members is it because you have kids and FBC is the best place for them? are you must be to chicken @#!@ to face the pastor with all this bull.
Back in my day if you had some thing to say you went to them like a man and said it. But you people on here you must all have the same name Judas because that is just how you are acking and you to Watch dog man what a role model you are for your Kids and your wife must be proud she has married a man that needed to hide his identity for so long and for all you others the same thing you all should be ashamed of your selfs. I know one thing if you you can hide from the members of the GREAT FBC but when its all said and done you will never Hide from GOD you will answer to him for the way you have Treated one of his sons My God have Mercy on your soul. And Gost if you are that ashamed of your self and your family that you needed to hide but still call your self a FBC member you might go and find a church were you can get saved and grow in the lord

Anonymous said...

Just watched the vid - My GAWD is Mac a stupid little devil! Protect the flock my a$$! And you people cheering him on? Yea I am a sinnah... and A THIEF AND A LIAR, too. Cheer THAT deaf and blind "flock".

WD, I agree with the Team Brunson trolls, let that mess go. FBCJ sheeple don't deserve to be armed with the truth. Weak people like to be exploited. Let them find their way out of the next scandal coming down Mac's pike in 3...2...

Anonymous said...

To anon 8:57pm -

Your questions for Watchdog can just as easily be asked of your pastor and those involved in this whole affair:

"...have you ever thought about the hurt you have brought upon the people who were your brothers and sisters?"

Have you considered the hurt caused to WD by those who were his brothers and sisters?

"your attacks on Dr. Brunson are attacks on the church, and the church is the body of Christ made up of its members. You have single handedly been attacking Christ through your attacks on the church - does that not bother you as a "Christian"?"

Mac & company's attack on WD was an attack on a member of Mac's own church, who is also a member of the body of Christ. Does that not bother YOU? What kind of pastor treats his own sheep that way?


"...how hurt your own SS class mates feel now that they know you were behind all of this viciousness. What a shame."

How hurt WD is to know that his own pastor and fellow church members were behind all this viciousness towards him.

"in this hate filled assault on your former brothers and sisters (in Christ)"

WHERE has Watchdog shown any hate? All he has done is ask questions - questions that deserved answers, yet what he got in return was attacks on his character and his innocent wife, all by his former brothers and sisters in Christ. Think about THAT for a moment. The ones showing hate here are Mac supporters, who seem to hold a "my pastor, right or wrong" attitude. How pleasing is that to Jesus?

D

Anonymous said...

Seems the Brunsonites are ok with Mac supporters not being members of FBCJax. :o)

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:57pm..

Obvious you are not aware of what has happened to a great church. The WD has not done anything wrong but simply expose the wrong doing, misguided, self-centered leadership we have in the church.

If the leadership was Christ centered and focused on reaching the lost, then we would not have issues and there would not be any need for the WD to blog.

Have you seen the slow migration of people leaving the church, have you seen the budget decline, have you ever seen this church not give and meet the budget?

These are all signs of the leadership!

So stop drinking the Koolaid and look around!

Voice of Reason said...

April 13, 2009 8:57 PM - lighten up guy. The WD just has some questions and concerns about some of Mac's actions since he arrived. Not speaking for the WD, but please believe me in this or you may end up in Guyana someday, TO QUESTION MAC BRUNSON IS NOT THE SAME AS ATTACKING THE LORD JESUS AND HIS CHURCH. Please, please, please try and understand that. To question Mac is NOT to question the King or question the LORD. It is NOT "attacking" or "hating." If you could ever understand that. And Mac could ever understand that, then resolution might be possible. Until then, Mac has called the WD a sociopath, and now you call him a psychopath! YOU are the scary ones. And the whole city now knows what lengths you will go to when someone dares to ask questions and persistently pursues answers and accountability. Sheesh!

Junkster said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

" Not speaking for the WD, but please believe me in this or you may end up in Guyana someday, TO QUESTION MAC BRUNSON IS NOT THE SAME AS ATTACKING THE LORD JESUS AND HIS CHURCH. "

Some folks do not realize that Jim Jones started out SBC. Jim Jones did teach that to question him was to question God. He really did.

Now we have Mac supporters saying the same thing! It is scary. Real scary how cultic churches can become.

Thy Peace said...

WebProNews > Google Helps Identify Anonymous BloggerA subpoena is a subpoena is a subpoena

Free speech has always been an irritant to those who become the target of it; freedom in general is a frightening concept to some because of the broad blanket it throws over the righteous and the sinful alike. And as always it seems many people support the freedom concept so long as it supplies protections for the liberties they themselves choose to enjoy—enjoy the wrong set of liberties and you’ll suddenly find far fewer true believers in the founding principles of the American experiment.

A subpoena is a subpoena is a subpoena

Free speech has always been an irritant to those who become the target of it; freedom in general is a frightening concept to some because of the broad blanket it throws over the righteous and the sinful alike. And as always it seems many people support the freedom concept so long as it supplies protections for the liberties they themselves choose to enjoy—enjoy the wrong set of liberties and you’ll suddenly find far fewer true believers in the founding principles of the American experiment.

Quite obviously no branch of the government (apparently anywhere) cares about the First Amendment rights anonymous bloggers or nonprofit, gadfly bloggers. And, as per usual, where the government actively seeks to deny the rights of citizens in the digital realm, the citizens will find no refuge in terms of service agreements of large corporations, nor in surface-level digital democracies.

Like your privacy, your right to anonymity is an illusion.
-----------------------------------
reddid commentHi church, meet state: Police detective, who incidentially is on megachurch's payroll, subpeonas the ID of a blogger critical of the pastor's $300,000 salary. Finding no legal wrongdoing, the detective informs the pastor of the blogger's identity, who is kicked out for “a violation of Scripture” (jacksonville.com)-----------------------------------
JONATHAN TURLEY > Baptist Church Accused of Using Florida Detective to Uncover and Identify Critical BloggerThomas A. Rich was an anonymous blogger on www.fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com who complained to other parishioners about such things as First Baptist Church Pastor Mac Brunson’s huge $300,000 salary, his construction of a lavish office for himself, and his putting his wife on the payroll. The church turned to Detective Robert Hinson who not only works for the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office but is on the payroll of the church. Hinson allegedly opened a criminal investigation that identified Rich and then informed the church. Rich and his wife were promptly banned from the church.

Hinson secured a subpoena from the State Attorney’s Office to force Google Inc. to reveal Rich’s name. Since the blogger never made any threat, it was clear that there was no crime. It is unclear why the State’s Attorney’s office would approve such a subpoena. The prosecutors approved a highly invasive subpoena based on the undefined allegation of “possible criminal overtones.” Hinson reportedly also investigated other bloggers: www.tiffanycroft.blogspot.com and www.newbbcopenforum.blogspot.com.

Brunson himself seems to believe that Rich was expressly mentioned in the biblical passage that “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god.” Whatever the chances of Rich to enter the Kingdom of God, he has little chance of entering the First Baptist Church — or for that matter his wife. The good reverend has said that Rich exhibits an “obsessive compulsive problem” and is “not very stable at all . . . What you’re dealing with is a sociopath.” That last part could be the basis of a possible defamation against Brunson.

Rich has so interesting options ranging from lawsuits against the police, church, and Brunson himself. At a minimum, such a lawsuit might have a laudable effect of instilling a degree of caution and circumspection in this department. Even if the investigation was justified (which seems highly debatable), it is astonishing that the police would use a subpoena to deny a blogger anonymity and then turn over that information to a church for his ridicule and banishment within a church.
-----------------------------------
Business Week > FBC blogger feels privacy was violated: Law enforcement says his privacy rights weren't violated, but there are concerns about the investigation. [The Florida Times-Union, Jacksonville]Apr. 12--A formerly anonymous blogger says his First Amendment and privacy rights may have been violated when authorities revealed his identity to First Baptist Church in Jacksonville.

Police, the State Attorney's Office and a state law enforcement expert disagree.

But experts on criminal investigations, electronic privacy rights and constitutional law say the First Baptist case at the very least raises valid free speech and privacy questions.

Also disputed is whether the detective who identified and outed the blogger acted unethically because he belongs to the downtown megachurch and the security detail of its pastor, the Rev. Mac Brunson.

Both State Attorney Angela Corey and her predecessor, Harry Shorstein, said the "Internet incident" issue by itself was enough to justify the subpoenas Hinson sought for Rich's blog. Hinson also subpoenaed two additional blogs that don't focus on First Baptist.

"It may be nothing more than the police officer saying 'this person may be threatening' and we would issue the subpoena," said Shorstein, who was in office at the time of Hinson's investigation.

He added that a much higher burden of proof and a judge's approval are needed to obtain wire taps and search warrants.

First Amendment issues

But Shorstein said he is disturbed that Hinson gave the church Rich's name despite finding no wrongdoing and closed the case Nov. 13. This raises free speech issues, Shorstein said.

"I think it would be inappropriate to use the subpoena power to aid a church or any entity ... to stop someone from using their First Amendment privileges," Shorstein said.

It also could be a violation of a federal privacy act, said John Verdi, staff counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington. The organization seeks to draw public attention to digital privacy and civil rights issues.
-----------------------------------
Deep Thoughts > Where is the love?Do you know how I spot posers? I look for love in their words. When I find a man who speaks for Jesus but spouts words devoid of love, my mind screams “poser”, and by poser I mean hypocrite.

First Baptist Church Pastor Mac Brunson has no love for bloggers. Especially those who dare to criticize his $300K salary, the $300K church land grant, or his lavish office. After all, he’s a mega church pastor and deserves the riches that come with the title.

Brunson declined to discuss his home and salary but maintained he is one of the lowest-paid mega-church pastors in the Southern Baptist Convention. He said people are welcome to criticize his preaching style and ministry goals, including the school, but usually do so openly, not anonymously.

But the love does not stop at criticism, it extends to abuse of power. If you dare to blog about his excesses, then he will use every means available to track you down and expose you in the church. Of course, we all know this is a Machiavellian move to silence his critics, his followers think he’s trying to protect Jesus.

The story makes an interesting read. Apparently a member of Brunso’s security detail is a detective on the local police force. He used his access to get a subpoena from the Florida State Attorney’s office compelling Google Inc. to give up the blog’s author. After learning the author was a member of the pastor’s church, the detective turned over the bloggers name despite there being any evidence of a crime. The abuse of power is epic in this case. Somebody must pay (are you listening DOJ?).
-----------------------------------

Anonymous said...

FBC members posting here supporting what the church has done. You are just proving the churches critics to be true! Listen to yourselves, some of you are downright hateful in what you've said.

Are you following Jesus or a man? Are you more dedicated to FBC than you are to the TRUTH?

You are sooooooooo upset that this is in the papers or upset for some reason that you can't even bother to see if it is true that Mac writes one thing in his Pastor's Guidebook and does the opposite of what he tells other pastors to do?

You totally approve of the church trying to take away your right to legal recourse? It is in the bylaws as well as a few other choice tidbits that were never explained. For a church to have handled the bylaws in such a way seems so completely the opposite of the way the Bible says to handle things. The changes were NOT explained and for those of you who were commenting on jacksonville.com that the church hides nothing and keeps everything in the open, say what? I guess the whole church knew about the subpeonas before the TU article. Yeah! That sure was not out in the open for the members to be aware of was it. I guess the whole church also knows that their tithes and offerings are also going to Maurilio who helps with the sermon titles among other things yet he thinks "boring someone with the gospel of the good news is a sin." That is his own quote folks! http://www.maurilioamorim.com/2008/12/are-you-ready-to-quit-church.html

This is not going to go away on the ocean breeze. It is probably going to get worse. The deacons and trustees made it possible for things to occur in the manner which they have because of the changes that were made that you do NOT know about.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=first+baptist+blogger&btnG=Search

I wonder why it is that the main ones I hear supporting the church's actions are FBC members.

fw

Thy Peace said...

Photography is Not a Crime
It’s a First Amendment Right > Florida cop abuses subpoena authority against bloggers who criticize pastors
A Jacksonville Sheriff’s detective who works off-duty for a local pastor used his law enforcement authority to subpoena personal information on an anonymous blogger who was critical of the pastor who employed him.

Detective Robert Hinson, who also serves as Rev. Mac Brunson’s bodyguard, closed the investigations against the blogger a few weeks after receiving the information from Google and Comcast.

But not before handing over the blogger’s personal information to the pastor - essentially outing him against his will - in an inquisition-style conflict of interest that threatens the separation of church and state guaranteed by our Constitution.

The pastor, in turn, banned the blogger and his family from First Baptist Church, the largest church in Jacksonville, by threatening to arrest them for trespassing if they dared step on church property again.

Now blogger Tom Rich, who runs the blog FBC Jax Watchdog, is preparing to strike back legally.

“We’re talking First Amendment issues, federal privacy issues, slander issues,” the 45-year-old engineer and teacher said in a phone interview with Photography is Not a Crime Sunday night.

“We’re going to use every legal means possible to shine the brightest light to see what they did and why they did it.”
-----------------------------------
Forums > Law enforcement exposes blogger for pastor after revealing salaryA member of the Jacksonville sheriff's office, who also worked for First Baptist Jacksonville, via subpoena got google to reveal the name of a blogger and then exposed it to the public. The blogger was then banned from the church.

The crime?

The blogger posted First Baptist Jacksonville Pastor's Mac Brunson salary ($300,000) and other benefits. No threats, no harassment, no libel. Just facts about the church's money.
-----------------------------------

Thy Peace said...

The People's Forum > Unmasked blogger blames First Baptist, Sheriff's Office - A subpoena is used to obtain critic's identity from GoogleA blogger critical of First Baptist Church Pastor Mac Brunson wants to know why his Web site was investigated by a police detective who is also a member of the minister’s security detail.

Thomas A. Rich also wants the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office to explain what suspected crimes led Detective Robert Hinson to open the probe into his once-anonymous Web site.

Rich also wants to know why Hinson revealed his name to the church despite finding no wrongdoing. Hinson obtained a subpoena from the State Attorney’s Office requiring Google Inc. to reveal the author of the blog.

Rich’s unmasking led to an eventual trespass warning banning the longtime member and his wife from First Baptist, despite the fact that Brunson and a top church administrator conceded the blog never threatened violence.
-----------------------------------
at-Largely > Alert, press under attack: blogger critical of church pastor targeted by cop who is member of the church...This is outrageous:

"A blogger critical of First Baptist Church Pastor Mac Brunson wants to know why his Web site was investigated by a police detective who is also a member of the minister’s security detail.

Thomas A. Rich also wants the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office to explain what suspected crimes led Detective Robert Hinson to open the probe into his once-anonymous Web site.

Rich also wants to know why Hinson revealed his name to the church despite finding no wrongdoing. Hinson obtained a subpoena from the State Attorney’s Office requiring Google Inc. to reveal the author of the blog.

Rich’s unmasking led to an eventual trespass warning banning the longtime member and his wife from First Baptist, despite the fact that Brunson and a top church administrator conceded the blog never threatened violence.

Rich said he mailed a complaint against Hinson to the Sheriff’s Office on Tuesday. It had not been received as of Wednesday afternoon.

The intelligence detective opened the criminal investigation Sept. 29 into the identity and “possible criminal overtones” of the blog, fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com."

Um, why did the US Attorney even allow the subpoena and what judge approved it? I think Detective Robert Hinson has a good deal of explaining to do. In particular, I am curious if Detective Hinson collects a paycheck from Brunson. In any case, I suggest Rich get going on filing a massive law suit against the Church, Brunson, Hinson, the US/A, and the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office. He can plan on winning, because no one is going to stand for this type of abuses - no one running for office in a now swing state.
-----------------------------------

Anonymous said...

anon 10:19 pm you probably believe the government is hiding space aliens also. What is scary are conspiracy theorists like you! Very, very scary!

Anonymous said...

Hi all:

Just a little wake-up call here:

The blogger who mentioned Jim Jones is not far off the mark, people! Those who are willing to follow blindly because this is "God's Man" are operating without full understanding of the situation. In fact, Scripture warns us of being blind followers!

I know personally of a case where someone said "Right or wrong, he's my pastor! And if he says we're going to change to being a Catholic church, then I will say 'Yes Father!' and follow him even then!"

God gave us a brain and he gave us the sense to know when someone is trying to pull the wool over our eyes! We can't sit back and just be quiet and be admonished to "just move on folks, there's nothing going on here!"

Thy Peace said...

All from Bene Diction Blogs On:
-----------------------------------
Whereas…the FBC Jax Watchdog blogSome time ago I started popping over to a blog called FBC Jax Watchdog. I’m interested in how and why ‘watch’ blogs go online, what the blogger or bloggers hope to accomplish and how their story ends.

This gentleman went to a Southern Baptist mega-church in Jacksonville Florida for a couple of decades. Reading his blog you can gather he is middle age (or approaching it) and is meticulous, hurt, angry and grieving. His loyalty to the church he attended isn’t in question, he wouldn’t be blogging his grievances if the Jacksonville SBC church wasn’t a strong part of his identity. The church claims 29 thousand members, so if he went there for a couple of decades it would probably feel like a home town.
The church owns 11 blocks of the downtown core if wiki is to be believed.

His original crime: questioning leadership about finances.
Well, trying to.
His next crime: blogging.
Getting to the head minister to ask questions would be similar to me scheduling a meeting with the mayor where I live, and our mayor doesn’t have armed security guards and attitude.
We can vote him out.
The blogger isn’t happy, doesn’t get answers, isn’t heard, starts his blog, puts his questions out there and things simmer for awhile before all heck breaks loose.

For some reason SBC leadership don’t like blogs, I’ve posted about that oddity before. Some celebrity SBC leaders have blogs, but not ones you can comment on though. It’s the proverbial do as I say scenario common in a culture where leaders believe they are paid to be obeyed.

The blogger seems to have made some people who have more money than brains very nervous, because church leadership has not handled his questioning well at all from what we see in the public responses.

He is the the first blogger I’ve ever seen who has been voted on in a congregational business meeting after leadership drew up a degree/proclamation/resolution and read it from the pulpit. A resolution from the deacons/trustees.

I kid you not.

The guy reading it in this clip is a judge.

What is stunning is that people who were in the seats just voted, no questions, just blind obedience. Most voted yay by standing. How incredibly sad.

I guess after all those whereas’ you’d better be obediently blind.
-----------------------------------
SBC Jax Watchblog updateThis is bad - as in damning for leadership of the SBC Jacksonville Church. Not only did the leadership in Jacksonville SBC Baptist Church go after the watch-blogger identify (filing papers using the term criminal incident, asking for information such as names, social insurance numbers etc) they went after two other SBC blogs.

Neither one is involved with the Jackson church., one isn’t even in Florida, she signs her name and is trying to get her sexual abuser and SBC leader who has abused others behind bars. Wade Burleson:

“Local Jacksonville law enforcement officers, former Florida circuit court judges, and other members of FBC, all friends of the pastor, seemed to have used secular Florida authorities to unethically and possibly illegally obtain subpoenas to reveal the identity and other private information of the owners of the FBC Jacksonville Watchdog and New BBC Open Forum and Tiffany Croft’s blogs.”

This is leadership out of control and behavior goes to perversion of power that any one of us would find staggering, especially if we were at the receiving end.
A reporter who is attempting to write this story up received a suggestion by someone in The Jacksonville Police department that “the subpoenas were issued because there may be some kind of ongoing federal investigation into these blogs.” Wow.
-----------------------------------
Whereas, First Baptist Church Jacksonville and law enforcementA few weeks ago I posted about a watchblogger who has been rebuffed and abused by church leadership at the SBC church in Jacksonville Florida.
There is an update here.

Now media has picked up the ball, because the church senior leadership tactics speak to the larger community with their use and possible abuse of law enforcement.
People are understandably concerned about the ethics around the investigation.

A reporter found the watchbloggers name on a ‘no tresspass’ report and the story has gone far past SBC blogs and the church into Florida papers over the past couple of days, and apparently has been picked up by three local TV stations.
If grieved and active church members don’t step in and step up, this mega-church abuse of power story will go national.

There are a couple things which jump out at me.
Church leadership made some serious choices which impact a wider group of people than the few they chose to be abusive toward. They used law enforcement not only to find out the ‘identity’ of this blogger, but private information on two other bloggers as well, one of whom is using her real name.
Lesser levels of leadership at First Baptist Church in Jacksonville were lied to about what was going on, and it remains to be seen now that they know they were lied to, what they will chose to do. The ‘whereas’ deacon resolution warning members disappeared from the church website over the weekend.
-----------------------------------

Anonymous said...

READERS - as expected. This kind of abuse by the church is National News. Check out this article by cut and pasting it into your browser. Even has a nice picture of Frank Mackesy on it. :)

http://jonathanturley.org/2009/04/13/baptist-ministry-accused-of-using-florida-detective-to-uncover-and-identify-critical-blogger/#comments

Anonymous said...

I hope the depositions are videotaped. I can't wait to see the tone and demeanor of Judge Soud when he is deposed. And the details of stalking when Ms. Brunson is deposed. And whether Mac does any stomping when he is deposed. And John Blount's marching orders revealed when he is deposed. And what Kevin King has to say about hand delivering those trespass warnings banning Mr. Rich and his wife, and Maurilio Amorim's role in all of this. That should be a great twitter entry by Maurilio: "About to be deposed, under oath, on camera, for about three hours regarding my role in the FBC Jax scandal."

Anonymous said...

Hey Drummer - what about you? Ever been called a sociopath on the front page of the hometown newspaper by a mega pastor/author/nationally known speaker? No? I didn't think so.

Hey whole world, you didn't know that the blogger is an unstable sociopath? Well you know it now.

Hey drummer, you worried about subpoenas and you and your wife being deposed? No? I didn't think so.

Hey drummer, you don't want to go into debt? You like your church being out of debt don't ya? Well then, give a million dollars. In two weeks. (Stomp.)

Anonymous said...

Question...Whatever happened to seperation of Church and State? This situation is so ironic that Washington, Jefferson, and Adams would call for another Continental Congress to deal with such injustice. No one should have used the Police Powers to intrude into something the Church leaders desired, particularly when nothing illegal had transpired.

Can you imagine a local politician running for public office pulling this on one of his/her running mates two weeks prior to an election so as to gain more votes. This type of abuse has to stop. Otherwise, you or I could be next just for asking questions. Shameful behavior is all I can say. This faimily can never return to this church again as they are held in ridicule by a majority of the ill-informed members for this story now being read in local paper and television stations. It is a story that seems to never end. I notice none of the trustees or deacons ever blog on here and provide any facts to support their unanimous vote to support the Whereas!!

Anonymous said...

Why does the "State" not know anything about Separation of Church and State?

Anonymous said...

If the church relies so much on the Separation of Church and State, why did the church use the state to get private info. And why would a state employee (the detective) working ALSO for the church not realize that he was crossing into delicate territory.

Also have you noticed the state sometimes only acknowledges the Separation of Church and State, when they want to dismiss a lawsuit.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if there are secretive mega church preacher job inquiries going out from the desk of Debbie Brunson. Trouble is that the timing is probably bad because I hear houses in the 2 to 3 million dollar price range are moving a little slowly these days. So I guess it's a matter of waiting for the economy to improve so the real estate market can pick up. OH NO! The economy is not going to improve any time soon so we're stuck with him!!!!

Well, somebody is stuck with him, but it ain't me because I've had enough of money-grubbing "seek my face" preachers who forget that it is God's Face we are to seek. It is God Who cares about us and will comfort and encourage us.

And by the way, Brunson defenders, please don't come and post again about how Mac Brunson is God's man. There has been only ONE MAN God sent to us! There is One Mediator between God and man and His Name is Jesus!

I'm not saying that God can't use men for His Purpose. But I think we have all, at one time or another, taken our eyes off Jesus and looked up to a mere man for his direction and forgotten that God's Direction is plainly shown to us in Scripture. I guess I started to notice a long time back that Mac Brunson, though he can effectively use history to preach, he certainly seems most interested in making sure it's Mac Brunson's face that represents First Baptist Church, Jacksonville.

Remember, Brunson is the one who is responsible for starting the "South Campus" of First Baptist Church and we had just darn well better be thankful for that! We had also better sit up and acknowledge the fact that Brunson, and only Brunson, was powerful enough to bring Jim Whitmire to FBCJ! Dr. Lindsay couldn't do it! Dr. Vines couldn't do it! Only Mac Brunson could do it! How do I know that? Because he so humbly told us from the pulpit that only he could get Whitmire to come here!

And, once again on Sunday, Brunson got a standing ovation! Why? Was it because the whole church -- except for 3 bloggers -- approve of what Mac Brunson did? No, it's because people are too intimidated to NOT stand up! Go ahead, claim it's because everyone loves and approves of Brunson, even if he calls one of his sheep an obsessive-compulsive sociopath! "Well, he said he's not perfect, so it's okay..." NO IT IS NOT OKAY!

See also Pres Obama's loving recepton in Iraq. Uh, huh, you've got it, it was staged. Look at the photo and see the identical digital cameras that were given to the soldiers who were questioned as to who they voted for and then shuffled up front to represent all soldiers. What a bunch of baloney! I just thought we could expect better from a well-known Christian church.

Pssst, just a suggestion: Do not drink any Kool-Aid that is offered to you!

Anonymous said...

The Mac Brunson we have come to know wasn't asking your forgiveness for slandering you. He wasn't asking for forgiveness from the congregation for causing a black eye to the church. He wasn't asking forgiveness from the people of the City of Jacksonville.

No, the Mac Brunson we have come to know was up there in the pulpit for one reason only! HE WAS TRYING TO COVER HIS OWN PATHETIC SELF!

What a great disappointment you are to us, Mac Brunson! My Dad used to say "Don't change the subject!" Mac Brunson, you changed the subject so you could come out looking like you were PROTECTING the church!

Anonymous said...

Jim Jones started out apostolic pentecostal. I just watched the movie yesterday.

Anonymous said...

Quoted from the Bene Diction web site: "...the church leadership claimed he was involved in criminal activity. Why? The overkill is stunning..."

The overkill attitude that was employed to obtain the Watchdog's name was so incredibly much overkill that it's almost keystone cops funny. Except that it's not one bit funny.

FBC hierarchy sowed seeds they thought would stop the "erosion" from the Watchdog's words. They thought they would reap the desired result but can you imagine their surprise when they saw that the harvest brought only ugly weeds that are taking over the countryside -- kinda like the kudzu along the Georgia highways! The kudzu stopped the erosion but now they're dealing with an impossible-to-contain weed.

I'm guessing the FBC hierarchy is running around, bumping into each other because they didn't think "outing the blogger" would bring a never-ending tale of woe for them.

You just can't make up stuff like this. Maybe it would make a good story. "And The Watchdog Blogged On!" Teacher! Teacher! What's the moral of the story? Well, boys and girls, the moral of this story is that we should NEVER disregard God's Word by taking matters into our own hands!

Anonymous said...

Usually when someone continually proclaims their innocence and always tries to make themselves a martyr they are guilty of something or are hiding something.

In the case of the Watchdog, I tend to think both conclusions are true.

Remember o gullible ones, you are only hearing one side of this story and Watchdog isn't known as a stalwart of telling the truth.

Anonymous said...

Bishop Jackson is quoted here: "And that is that we love the applause of men more than we love the work of God and the gospel..."

Bishop Jackson was speaking about Rick Warren's apparent change of attitude toward same-sex marriage. But I think his quote is very apt concerning Mac Brunson as well!

Shawn Patrick said...

Don't love you the logic of the mentally ill anonymous FBC supporters in here.

An example of this mental illness is shown here "since you attack Brusnon, you are attacking the FBC, and therefore you are attacking Christ"

That's pure mental illness. That's Benny Hinn sort of nonsense.

I've noticed that the anonymous pro-FBC actually believe that being a "member" of the church is salvation. And have you noticed that post as "anonymous" instead of their real names? They don't even have the faith to defend their god using their own name. Pathetic isn't it?

Mega-churches have become synagogues of Satan. They are run like a corporation with massive payrolls and lawyers. They operate many things in secret. They don't use the Bible and Bible only.

My real name is signed on this post.

Anonymous said...

"Remember o gullible ones, you are only hearing one side of this story and Watchdog isn't known as a stalwart of telling the truth."

April 14, 2009 1:42 PM

"That is just too "FUNNY". Mac had his chances to answer any of WD'S questions or anyone else "AS A MATTER OF FACT".When asked by reporter Brumley about those allegatio; What was Mac repsonse!.The man(WD)is and "OBSESSIVE COMPLUSIVE SOCIOPATH".To all you Mac kool-aid drinkers,Mac has had ample opportunities to answer all the questions posed! "HAS HE": "NO".And he has no intentions of ever answering any questions!Why don't you kool-aid drinkers go to Mac and ask him if any of the allegation levels against him are true! "Mac are any of these allegations concerning you true"?.SILENCE and more SILENCE. "THOUGHT SO"!

Anonymous said...

AMEN 11:10

2nd that, Shawn P.

Heck yeah 11:22. GRIFTER Mac flipped the script.

The watchdog bears false witness said...

SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 21, 2009

FBC Jax Deacons to Vote 2/23 on Fate of Couple Accused of Being the "Watchdog"

Guys, go back and read the above Blog. The "Watch Dog" very clearly leaves the impression that the church was "Accusing" the wrong person.

He has done this many times. After his identity was discovered he basically lied about it repeatedly.

Robert Martin said...

"Mega-churches have become synagogues of Satan. "

I rebuke you in the name of Jesus for this hateful statement.

Anonymous said...

Remember o gullible ones, you are only hearing one side of this story and Watchdog isn't known as a stalwart of telling the truth.

April 14, 2009 1:42 PM

We would love to hear more of the other side. Do you have the police reports?

All we have are facts: investigations and subpeona's, trespass warnings, resolutions. We also have Mac's own words from the pulpit.

What is missing are the police reports detailing the alleged criminal activities of WD, Tiffany croft and BBC.

Do you happen to know where they are? Shouldn't the accused have a right to know what they are accused of?

Anonymous said...

"I've noticed that the anonymous pro-FBC actually believe that being a "member" of the church is salvation."

This is a big problem and very true. It is like many who think that everyone in the Corinthian church was saved. Or the Ephesian church.

But Revelation sets us straight with that wrong thinking

Matt

Christa Brown said...

Actually, Jim Jones was a minister in good standing of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), an absolutely normal Protestant denomination, and like Southern Baptists, a denomination with a congregational polity. The people in Jim Jones’ congregation weren’t fools. Many were highly-educated. They almost certainly didn’t see themselves as being part of a “cult.” Yet, when things turned terribly wrong, the sheep couldn't rein in the shepherd.

After the Jonestown tragedy, the Disciples of Christ saw how their lack of clergy oversight made them vulnerable to horrific abuse perpetrated in the name of faith. So they created a process by which a regional body can consider the “standing” of ministers who carry the Disciples of Christ name.

One ordained Disciple explained the change this way: “In the dark light of Jonestown, it’s hard to argue that you can go back to an entirely decentralized structure with a general identity. That’s how you get a Jim Jones.”

Another ordained Disciple shared this same bit of history with me personally, in explaining why he so strongly supported our efforts to urge the creation of a clergy accountability system for Southern Baptists. He understood the danger.

After all, Southern Baptists have over 101,000 ministers in this country, and they’re spread out in more than 43,000 churches. It’s a faith group whose members share a strong “general identity” but have “an entirely decentralized structure.”

For those interested, here's a first-person account of the Jonestown tragedy, written by journalist Charles Krause, who accompanied Congressman Leo Ryan to Jonestown to investigate. Krause was shot in the hip and survived by playing dead.

And here's what renowned religion writer Terry Mattingly had to say on the 30th anniversary of the Jonestown massacre.

Anonymous said...

Just because something says FBC on it, do not assume it is an 'ekklesia'.

You must ask: Has the candlestick been removed?

People do not talk like this anymore. They do not ask the hard questions and compare the fruit to the Living Word. A good tree does NOT produce bad fruit.

Do not assume because lots of people go there, it is a True Body of Christ. Do not assume because seminary presidents promote it, it is a True Body of Christ.

It is easier to give birth than it is to raise the dead.

Matthew 11:

At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. 26 "Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 27 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Richard said...

Anonymous 1:42 says: Remember o gullible ones, you are only hearing one side of this story and Watchdog isn't known as a stalwart of telling the truth.Okay, so why don't you enlighten us with the truth. Personally, I think some significant questions have been raised, without answers from the Pastor.

1) We've been told that Mrs. Brunson is *also* drawing a salary, yet she doesn't show up on the church staff directory. Why is the pastor's wife drawing a salary for, apparently, being his wife? Is she perhaps not drawing a salary, as has been alleged? Or, if she *is* drawing a salary, maybe she's doing a lot of work for the money, but leaving her off of the staff list on the website is just an oversight.

2) Pastor Brunson apparently received free land, valued at $300k or so, from people that own Collins Homes, who are members of the congregation. It's been alleged on this blog that subsequently, an **ADVERTISEMENT** was aired in church, during the pastor's sermon, for Collins Homes. Is this true? I haven't seen any official refutations, or justifications. People say that the Pastor put out a guidebook for pastors, and one of the pieces of advice was not to accept large gifts, but this seems to have gone against that notion. Has Pastor Brunson come out and said that accepting the gift was a mistake, or airing an ad during a church service was a mistake? Has he entered into a process of paying for the land, to remove the appearance of impropriety?

3) It's been alleged that very significant changes to the church's bylaws were made, without explicitly informing the congregation of the content of the changes that they were going to vote on. One of these changes was apparently that special business meetings could no longer be called based upon a vote of a certain amount of the congregation, but instead, could only be called by people who are appointed by the pastor. It seems that provisions allowing such business meetings to be called by the congregation are a significant limit on the abuses of power by a pastor, and this was done away with, on the say-so of the pastor and his underlings. At the same time, I believe it's been said that the bylaws were changed to say that the Pastor could only be removed at a special business meeting, which could now only be called by people who are appointed by the pastor. Am I mistaken about the content of the changes to the bylaws? Perhaps I've been mis-informed, but in my defense, I haven't seen any interpretation from Pastor Brunson or his staff that would lead me to have a more charitable view of these changes.

These are a few of the questions that have been raised on this blog, and now 'the Watchdog' has been accused of 'not being a stalwart of telling the truth'. Well, if you want to get the truth out, the opportunity is here. So far, though, all I've seen are attacks on WD for being divisive, being critical, airing dirty laundry, doing things in an anonymous manner, etc. On the other hand, there have been (to my knowledge) no actual answers, refutations of the main points that he has made, or clarifications that would bring greater understanding of the policies that have been implemented (well, except for "$300k/year is a perfectly reasonable salary for the pastor of a very large church"). Perhaps, rather than CALL the man a liar, you should show *why* he's wrong, and *demonstrate* that he's a liar.

Anonymous said...

Let's see--FBC, Jax was packed this past weekend so I guess a lot of people have either never heard of this blog or simply don't give a dang.

I tend to think a blend of both.

IT IS WRITTEN said...

Dr.Dog...I notice that in Mac's feeble attempt at an apology,he selectively qouted 1Peter 5:2 and stated that it was his responsiblity to guard God's flock!.But he convenietly did not reference the entirety of 1Peter 5:2!!...The greek word Feed or Shepherd lit.means to "shepherd,tend.It invovles MUCH MORE than to feed. It implies the WHOLE office of the shepherd,guiding,guarding,folding of the flock as well as leading it to nourishment"!!!.The entirety of 1Peter 5:2-3; reads "Shepherd the flock of God among you,exercising oversight not under compulsion,but voluntarily,according to the Will of God; and not for SORDID GAIN,but with eagerness;(3)nor yet as LORDING IT OVER THOSE ALLOTED TO YOUR CHARGE,BUT PROVING TO BE EXAMPLES TO THE FLOCK."....Mac again shows how deceptive he is in distorting or shortchanging the meaning of a passage of Scripture to suit his needs; He only quotes part of the passage without giving the context and full meaning of the text!!!.Therefore giving the illusions to the people that he is doing what God would have him do and that is to protect the people!!!While at the same time not revealing the issues that has gotten him and FBCJ into this mess...This guy is a "smoothhhhh" snake oil salesman!!!.The first person that comes to mind in Scripture that is the master of this kind of sleight of hand is Satan himself!!...In Matt.4:6-7,where Satan qoutes two verses from Psalm 91:11-12,twist them up and give them a new meaning contrary to the context of the entire Psalm!!!.All to decieve Jesus into innocently disobeying His Father,while at the same time hiding his true purpose!!!..Notice Mac still has not answered one question about the discrepancies you and others have mentioned nor about this witch hunt he used to out you!!!.Understand this Dr.Dog you are not dealing with your average Pharisee in Mac,this guy is slicker than castor oil!!!

Anonymous said...

"Let's see--FBC, Jax was packed this past weekend so I guess a lot of people have either never heard of this blog or simply don't give a dang. I tend to think a blend of both. April 14, 2009 5:51 PM"

So I guess you stumbled over this blog address on your way to the packed Easter service?

I am a member of FBC and have been a very active member for 20+ years. I was extremely disturbed to read in the newspaper that Mac Brunson, the loving, caring pastor of our church, called a former member an obsessive-compulsive sociopath. This should be disturbing to ALL members because it gives people more reasons to say NO WAY when they are invited to church. There have always been strange rumors about FBCJ -- taking our tithes from our paycheck etc.

But this is not one of those silly rumors! People have read the very words that came from the mouth of our pastor! If that does not bother you, then in my opinion, you need to seek help because it makes me suspect very strongly that you are a few french fries short of a happy meal!

IT IS WRITTEN said...

"Let's see--FBC, Jax was packed this past weekend so I guess a lot of people have either never heard of this blog or simply don't give a dang.

I tend to think a blend of both."

April 14, 2009 5:51 PM

Jesus said the road to destruction was packed as well[Matt.7:13-14]!!!..Jesus also said that "Not everyone who says to Me Lord,Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven..MANY will say".[Matt.7:21-23]...Do you you know What the "MAJORITY"(Many) means in Scripture???.."Absolutely nothing"!!!..Make sure you have gotten off of the wide road with the "MANY" and entered the "NARROW" gate with the "FEW"!!!

Anonymous said...

I watched this movie about Jim Jones yesterday in which they interviewed people who were in the church and who went to Jonestown with him. One statement that was made was by one woman who said they absolutely shut down the right of people in the church to openly discuss what was going on and to talk to one another about issues. I got it at the Kori Road library and I turned it in, so I can't tell you the exact name but Jonestown is in the name. It was pretty interesting. Jim Jones was truly mentally ill. I've been watching a lot of movies about Martin Luther King, Jonestown, Aimee Semple McPherson, ACLU Freedom Files...(fascinating in certain sections, you can't believe this stuff is going on in the usa). I'll leave you all to guess at my choice of viewing and reading material. Why NOT educate yourself about rights and cults and privacy and the like? Nobody is going to fill you in if you don't train yourself to recognize certain characteristics of "things". One of the first ways to stop a free society is to take away freedom of speech. I'm reading and seeing that EVERYWHERE. I no longer really care about the implications for FBC Jax, truthfully. If thats the kind of preacher and SYSTEM they want, then let em have it. BUT, the implications of this case legally regarding separation of church and state, etc., privacy, and freedom of speech is what I'm interested in seeing now. I'm not real comfortable with criticizing a preacher. But the ISSUES here are a lot bigger than some people seem to realize, and 99 percent of the people at FBC don't even care, obviously. How an American doesn't care about Freedom of Speech passes me. How an American doesn't care that a pastor of a church tried to influence Tiffany Croft's father to get her to shut her blog down passes me, if that actually happened.

Anonymous said...

"It seems that provisions allowing such business meetings to be called by the congregation are a significant limit on the abuses of power by a pastor, and this was done away with, on the say-so of the pastor and his underlings. At the same time, I believe it's been said that the bylaws were changed to say that the Pastor could only be removed at a special business meeting, which could now only be called by people who are appointed by the pastor."

This is actually happening in quite a few churches. It is almost as if there is some pastoral grapevine advocating this to get power and control over the church. Driscoll did somthing very similar just a few years ago changing the bylaws secretly and then fired 2other staff pastors who had disagreed with him publicly.

The stories of rogue celebrity pastors who are power freaks are piling up

Anonymous said...

Let's see--FBC, Jax was packed this past weekend so I guess a lot of people have either never heard of this blog or simply don't give a dang.

I tend to think a blend of both.

April 14, 2009 5:51 PM

The ballgames and theatres are packed, too. So what is your point?

Anonymous said...

seriously? comparing this pastor to jim jones or a sexual predator.

I don't expect WD to stop the circus...he's got way to many followers and is getting way too much press.

go ahead and say it's in the name of guarding the flock...but we all know it's more than that.

Matt Truth Detector said...

Matt is obviously synonymous with a moronic troll. Since when do you get off proclaiming that anyone who supports FBC believes being a member is synonymous with being born again?

I think your Alzheimer is kicking in again. They do make medicine for that but not for the anal retentive stupidity that you have stooped to in the most ignorant statement that you have ever made to date.

Maybe your statement relates more to your past life as a pastor of a Pentecostal mega church.

IT IS WRITTEN said...

" How an American doesn't care that a pastor of a church tried to influence Tiffany Croft's father to get her to shut her blog down passes me, if that actually happened."

April 14, 2009 6:35 PM

Anon...Please elaborate on this comment about Tiffany's Father pressuring her to shut down her blog at the beck of Mac???

IT IS WRITTEN said...

"Matt is obviously synonymous with a moronic troll. Since when do you get off proclaiming that anyone who supports FBC believes being a member is synonymous with being born again?

I think your Alzheimer is kicking in again. They do make medicine for that but not for the anal retentive stupidity that you have stooped to in the most ignorant statement that you have ever made to date.

Maybe your statement relates more to your past life as a pastor of a Pentecostal mega church.

April 14, 2009 7:24 PM

Anon please feel free to mix in any kind of Biblical references with your attack on Matt....This is the problem with you Macmen and Macwomen...You all appear to lack anykind of Biblical discernment or knowledge...I guess that accounts for why you blindly follow this man and demand no answers to his wanton actions!!!.I assure you that Matt has forgotten in 10 seconds everything you know about the Bible!!!

Anonymous said...

Let's see--FBC, Jax was packed this past weekend so I guess a lot of people have either never heard of this blog or simply don't give a dang.

April 14, 2009 5:51 PM

Actually, most churches do get packed for Easter Weekend. You know that, don't you. Your conclusions are faulty. My church was packed and overflowing, so I guess that means that all of the people that came used to go downtown but after reading the blog they decided to visit other churches and that is why so many churches around town were packed.

Or maybe, like Osteen's church, the masses don't really want a pastor or bible expositor. They just want to attend a large gathering and feel good about that.

You figure it out.

Anonymous said...

Whatever your opinion is, you have to admit that Team Brunson and The A-Group have been monumental failures. It is time for them to go. Please, take the money and run while you still can. The upcoming lawsuits are going to be very public and very damaging to the Brunsons and our city. Please, in the name of Jesus, move on Mac. Get out of town before damage is done. You can not lead now. You have accepted a large gift in direct conflict with your own book and now you have slandered and attacked a man who simply voiced some concerns.

Move on Mac. God is calling. All of this has happened so that you would move on. Do it now. Bye Mac. And take your children with you. They do still live at home don't they?

Padron 5000 said...

Matt Truth Detector said... "Since when do you get off proclaiming that anyone who supports FBC believes being a member is synonymous with being born again?"Agreed.

I am a total black sheep struggling sinner but I'm still loved by my FBC friends and family and proud of my church and perfectly fine with my pastor, yet here I'm labeled "a kool-aid drinker", etc., which is so asinine, but funny too.

Some of the finest and most successful men in Jacksonville have been or are board members of FBCJ and it is them that I put my trust in first following Christ. Not for one second would I think that any of the board members would steer the church wrongly, nor would I believe that any one of them would be steered.

So what you have here, in MY opinion - REGARDLESS of what Mac Brunson thinks - is indeed a true "obsessive compulsive sociopath".

Really, what is the freaking point anymore Rich (no pun intended)? Dang Rich, you are not apart of the church anymore, so get over it! Why you couldn't just find another church to start with makes no sense! If you didn't have success against FBCJ & Brunson through this pathetic blog site, what would have been your next step, or should I even ask? Sure, I can understand after 20 years you felt apart of the church, but Dude, get a grip and seek out counseling!

How many years have you been at this now? Dang dude, you are freaking obsessed. Your wife must be really happy these days (I imagine, sarcasm intended); wonder how much longer that will last. Nothing like having an obsessed husband who can't let go of something so meaningless. Such bitterness Mr. Richard.

Rich, I mean Richard, why do you care what happens to FBC now? Even if Mac was long gone thanks to your obsession, you will not be welcomed back. It's unfortunate for a church to go through the expulsion of a member, but it happens sometimes when it's needed.

I wonder if perhaps you are jealous. Maybe you are a closeted liberal with wealth envy. Me? Hey -I'm perfectly fine with Brunson's salary, his gifted land, even his wife working; it's just not that big a deal to me. Mac's a dang good preacher, and with the crap Brunson has to put up with, I would say his salary is actually quite fair. Needless to say, probably greater than 90% of the church members would also agree with me, which is why so many of us are still there. We are just fine with it all. Really. But don't you worry, because soon you can watch "wealth redistribution" and maybe that will ease your jealousy. Hmmmm.

So Brunson's salary might be $300,000, big stinkin' deal. So someone with land gifted some to them. Big stinkin' deal. You are probably just jealous of others. I bet you hate big business too. Probably hate small business even. You probably just hate everything with a passion, judging by your "obsession" - which hating and being angry is actually the standard Liberal way.

When you visit your new shrink, remember that you have OCD, Sociopathic tendencies, wealth envy, Narcissism, and you might be a Liberal too. Now go get some Prozac Richard and move on before you start wanting to put a cap in people's asses!

Here in TN said...

This blog has a nice picture of "Mac" and a news feed covering articles about the abuse of power at FBC JAX. http://thefullcourt.blogspot.com/2009/04/pastor-mac-brunson-gladly-abuses-law.html

This scandal is nationwide.

Anonymous said...

It Is Written - don't concern yourself with the trolls. Some are immediate family members,others are from the No Limits class, and at least one or two are from Bascom Kurtz' class. The man with the many brightly colored sportcoats. :) They mean well but have very little spiritual maturity and are very shallow in their faith. They will learn and look back on this and realize how immature and wrong they were. But we let them post because by their own words they clearly demonstrate what you get when you follow a celebrity preacher. Besides, I would expect these folks to defend their dad and/or friend in this manner since they can't actually engage in debate over the specific issues raised here.

Anonymous said...

"Some of the finest and most successful men in Jacksonville have been or are board members of FBCJ and it is them that I put my trust in first following Christ. Not for one second would I think that any of the board members would steer the church wrongly, nor would I believe that any one of them would be steered. "

Here is an example of the pride you will find in most mega's. In most of them the 'board of directors' are very successful businessman and leaders in the city. This is practically a prerequisite to get on the 'board'.

But should it be? What if the church janitor is the most spiritually anchored person you know?

But sadly, this commenters words have nothing to do with the scriptural admonition for elders. It does impress the flesh and bring in members but it has nothing to do with scripture.

Do these men display the salt elements of Matt 5 in their lives? Do most of the members even know them personally to know? Or do they take someone elses word for it?

The only authority an elder has is his ability to rightly divide the Word. His lifesyle (1 John) in walking in the light is another factor for qualification.

His wealth, position and power on earth have absolutely nothing to do with being qualified to be an elder. In some cases it would disqualify them.

And as of this date, they have all disqualified themselves for what has taken place according to 1 Tim 2 where they are to be above reproach to the outside.

People will actually put their trust in these men first as the author of the comment above says. It is part of the mega system that is so damaging to souls and sending so many folks to hell. My heart just grieves over it. And sadly, I have seen it too many times.

I pray that more folks will come out of these worldly 'churches' and seek the true Body of Christ where position and power are reserved for Jesus Christ alone.

Matt

Robert said...

Anon @ April 14, 2009 10:38 PM:

I attended the 'No Limits' class for a while and after reading your comments think you must have too.

They are a young bunch of Christians who mean well but in the immaturity of the class and their leadership fall into a sort of "group of lemmings" mentality.

For a while I was self conscious for not fitting in... I had to keep my questions to myself for fear of being branded a weak or unstable Christian. It took my departure from the class to realize that are when our Faith is tested, when we ask those tough questions and challenge what we believe in that we are able to build our confidence. I just couldn't subscribe to their belief of the only faith is blind faith.

The funny thing is when I read these comments I can almost see their faces... I really feel for what they are going through... I just hope they can get past their own pride and realize that all men are capable of falling... especially their stomping leader.

Anonymous said...

Since you whiners don't seem to accept the fact that there are tons of people still coming to FBC, Jax as proof most people don't care then HOW MANY OF YOU actually stood up at a business meeting or even voted no? NONE of you.

FBC, Jax has some fine men in leadership and will weather this little storm. In fact, they will probably be stronger now that so many malcontents have left. Now we just need to pray for their new churches--if they actually did join somewhere else.

Padron 5000 said it better than anyone I have read--and he's a voting, attending, and tithing member of FBC, Jax.

Anonymous said...

I'm sick of all you ignorant fools that continue to talk trash about FBC and Brunson, including you, Watchdog. If you hate FBC so much, then freaking LEAVE! We don't want you around us to just bring our spirits down! We are there to worship the Lord, not men. We are there to hopefully be convicted of our sin, but so many people these days are taken aback by that and call it "offensive." Well darn right it should be offensive! Christ's death was offensive! They beat him, spit on him, mocked him, nailed him to a cross, and killed him, yet he conquered death as a way for us to live forever with him. There are always those certain few who HAVE to concern themselves with everything going on in the church, even if it is gossip. Those are the ones that obviously are NOT focused on Christ. They obsess themselves with things IN the church and ABOUT the church instead of focusing ON the church, which is the body of Christ, and get their eyes off Jesus. This is obviously what Watchdog is doing. But everyone is SO concerned with what Mac has said and done that they look past Rich's faults. Well shame on you. If you are REALLY a Christian, take time to examine your own faults before pointing a finger.

"Those people are on a dark spiral downward. But if you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself. It takes one to know one. Judgmental criticism of others is a well-known way of escaping detection in your own crimes and misdemeanors. But God isn't so easily diverted. He sees right through all such smoke screens and holds you to what you've done. You didn't think, did you, that just by pointing your finger at others you would distract God from seeing all your misdoings and from coming down on you hard? Or did you think that because he's such a nice God, he'd let you off the hook? Better think this one through from the beginning. God is kind, but he's not soft. In kindness he takes us firmly by the hand and leads us into a radical life-change. You're not getting by with anything. Every refusal and avoidance of God adds fuel to the fire. The day is coming when it's going to blaze hot and high, God's fiery and righteous judgment. Make no mistake: In the end you get what's coming to you—Real Life for those who work on God's side, but to those who insist on getting their own way and take the path of least resistance, Fire!" -Romans 2:1-8

Get some GUTS and take time to do what this verse has said. Brunson has admitted he is a sinner, yet he never pointed any fingers at Watchdog except for call him a sociopath, and for good reason.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone stop to think about the feelings of watchdogs children and wife??? Does anyone care???

Many of you know them personally, and have known them for years. You know their children and you know how they served faithfully. Your childern may have been friends with them, and may now be crushed that they have left the church and may be dealing with resentment of the church and the adults that ran them out. You know their children were at every function and performance for years and years, faithful, in love with the Lord.

You know them...you know DEEP IN YOUR HEARTS who these people really are and that they ARE NOT the monsters you are all being blindly led to believe they are - please stand up for them. EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THE BLOG, do you really agree with the tactics being used against them? Do you really believe it is alright to make them out to be vicious, lying, stalking, thieving people who hate the church? Do you really believe it is alright for Pastor Brunson to call him names, discredit him and tell the Deacon committee horrible things that are not even proven against them, this created a lynchman mentality within the committee. Now these things are proven to be lies, slanderous comments made by a man that was angry that he was being questioned, an authority figure who was above reproach.

That little feeling in your soul that feels watchdog may not have been "innocent" in blogging, yet you also know that this is ABSOLUTELY the wrong way to handle things, speak up, even if it is going to take a lot of courage. It just takes one or two of us and then the multitude will follow. This is about doing what is right.

If you feel that this is an injustice against this man's family, say so. This does not mean you agree with his method, or that you are taking his side - but seriously, what would Jesus require of you? He asks us to stand for injustice and to be martyrs, to take the heat when sometimes it isn't popular, to stand for something even if we stand alone.

As missionary's in foreign countries, they go against the laws and rules to share the truth of the Gospel of Christ. Are they technically "sinning" because they are violating the laws and authority of the land? Are they disrespectful, hateful, lying, sinners because they are using dishonest means to spread the Word? Are they sometimes punished and even unto death? Are they doing the right thing? Would you have the courage to do this? Would you really be able to stand for Christ (alone) outside of the walls of your church? That is what this is, a stand for doing what is right and being a testimony to the world for Christ.

Pastor Brunson is accountable, he is the Pastor, the Leader, he is called to a higher calling, this is BIBLICAL. He is responsible for his flock, each and every sheep, even the "wayward" sheep that has "gone astray" if you wish to see it that way. But not to chastise or slander them, not to send a lynch mob after them, not to send the police for an investigation, not to send 2 Deacons to deliver trespass warnings to stay away from the church, certainly not to call them names in the newspaper and slander them in Deacon's meetings. What is required of your leader? What is it that you respect about this behavior? Don't buy into the "apology" in which he convinces you he was "protecting his church", he is ruining a family when the only "threat" to the church were words.

He was not any of the things that they told all of you. He was and is the same man many of you have respected, admired and loved for years.

You were shocked when you read his name, weren't you, be honest. Tom Rich - you were shocked because the things you have been told and what you have seen with your own eyes through the years did not add up. Right? This is so wrong, no matter what he did or did not do, this is wrong. Jesus says to hate the sin but love the sinner. All I have heard so far is hate of the "sin" and much more hate of the "sinner". Are you going to answer to the Lord for that, for joining in, for spreading lies and rumours, for remaining silent when your spirit is screaming within??

Turn this thing around before it does irrepairable damage to all. Be a "lighthouse", a beacon of love and truth. Make the wrongs right. Make Dr. and Mrs. Lyndsay proud, what if they could possibly see from Heaven, who would they be proud of? A few of us have done our parts, maybe someday you will know our names and hear our stories. There are some standing with the watchdog family. It may really surprise all of you to know our names, it may surprise you that some of us do not even fully agree with what he did, but we know the church is still wrong in their handling of this - it is not about ruining the church, it is actually about healing it.

I post anonymously because I must, in order to continue to help, we must be known only to some - no one knows who to trust at this point. What a shame, the very reason he posted anonymously to begin with has only been proven.

You can email here: rightingwrongs@hushmail.com

Anonymous said...

We at FBCJ feel the following and all of you posting on this site need to realize:

1. We love our pastor "Mac" - he is a kind, loving, caring, soft spoken, sincere, honest, conscientious, trustworthy, compassionate, humble, imperfect, fallible, hard working, disciplined shepherd of all of the members at FBCJ.

2. We love our pastors wife "Deb", but we just call her "honey" - we call her that because when she is shown on TV she is always smiling that big sweet smile and looking at her husband (and pastor) in an adoring kind of way - it is so wonderful to see people in love. She works so hard around the church in all of the ministries. She needed a big office just to handle all of the responsibilites asked of her (and why shouldn't she get paid?) - she's the pastor's wife!

3. We love our pastor's family - Trey, baby Brunson, and all of the rest of them - Trey is always running around the church doing stuff in his surfers shorts or flip flops (he is a surfer and that's simply the way surfer's roll dude). He directs the Outer Limits class (mostly surfers and surferettes) at the church and those people in there are so in touch with the word - they are "special" and of course we pay him a very good salary and why shouldn't we - he is the pastor's son for goodness sake!

4. We love our church "The" First Baptist of Jacksonville - I know there are FBCJ haters out there, but you must admit you want to be a part of our wonderful congregation! We sing, we network, we sing, we see and are seen by very important people in our community (how many of you can really say that? - not many), we believe the bible is 99.99% accurate, we are very important to our city (we even built a lighthouse to show people how to get to our church if they find themselves lost (literally, not figuratively), our church is the biggest one out there (it's 11 city blocks!), did I say we like to sing?

5. Lastly, we love ourselves - yes that's right OURSELVES! We believe we are right, always right - not sometimes right, once in a while right, on an occasion right, ALWAYS right. Sometimes people (heathens) don't thing we are right and say things about us, but if we have to we simply ask people to make sure that we are ultimately found to be right. We have people (if you know what I mean). We know we are right because it has always been that way. We have a pastor who talks directly to God and he says all of the time "God" said for me to tell you this or that and like EF Hutton, we listen and obey, because he is the "Senior Pastor" - duh!

So there, can't you understand how it must feel to be part of such wonderfulness?

Jeri said...

Brunson needs to repent of his actions.

Truth Purveyor said...

Anon 9:32. I for one welcomed a lawsuit from Tom Rich and company! Once it is adjudicated that will get all of the facts out, whatever they may be, pro Rich or pro Brunson.

Frankly, it will take this to settle what is fact and what is hearsay. Not that any hearts will be changed, though!

If Tom Rich wins that will only encourage more blogging on the "abuses of Mac Brunson" as he so eloquently and in the spirit of Christ that he proclaims! If FBC and Brunson wins, then Tom Rich and company will also be emboldened to ignore the outcome and proclaim that everything was rigged by the powerful "establishment" and that the court was really a kangaroo court and therfore must be ignored.

Anonymous said...

Strange!! If an individual was a former drunk, wife beater, murderer, or robber and he/she walked the aisle, to be saved, they would have been welcomed with open arms, right? They would even be brought up on the platform and given an opportunity to say something about their former condition, as has been done in the past. But, to question the pastor, with legitimate concers. Well thats division and they must be ostracized, right? They would not be welcomed or allowed anywhere near that platform, but rather receive trespass notices, saying, maybe some are welcomed into the Kingdom of God, but not in this church, if you cross a line. Some people just cannot understand the Bible. They choose what part they agree with and toss the rest aside sort of like the tatics used with the Rich's. Strange, but true.

Padron 5000 said...

Hey Anon April 15, 2009 12:25 AM
(rightingwrongs) -

That was a pathetic post! Tom Rich has carried out this crap for more than 2 years, probably more than 3 even! Enough is enough! Tom Rich didn't think about his wife and kids when he did all of this crap but you seem to think we should all be whining over HIM? Whatever! Tom Rich deserves no respect whatsoever.

A 2 month blog shows and angry man, a 2 year PLUS blog shows a mentally disturbed psycho nut job who didn't care about his family enough to simply be the man of the house and move their church membership elsewhere.

I guess you also feel bad for the wives and children of abusive men but expect them to stay in the family and take their beatings. Well not me. Enough is enough and I am glad we kicked out the abuser.

Blame Tom Rich for hurting HIS own wife and children, not the church he has been beating and abusing for over 2 years now.

Tom Rich could have moved their letter, found new friends and surely kept any of the old ones at FBCJ, but now he reaps what he sowed.

It's nice when an abused family stands up against the sicko perps who hurt them.

Seeing how this has gone on for so rediculously long now, and how Mr. Rich has used this blog to damage FBCJ (not just the Brunson's, but even wonderful people like Bascom Kurtz, etc., etc., etc.), proves that Mr. Rich is truly mentally disturbed in his vengance and hatred against the people of his ex-church.

Mr. Tom Rich is an abuser, not much different than the kind who bloody up their own. HE is the one who started this crap probably 3 years ago at least, and HE will, in the end, stand before God to account for the abuse he did to thousands.

Not many can say that they have abused the number of people that Tom Rich has abused, and some day Mr. Rich will stand in God's courtroom to answer for this beating he has done to FBCJ over the last few years.

Tom Rich is in a bad position now though, because his sociopathic nature and narcissism tells him to keep up the abuse so he does not look weak. But his conscious, if he even has one, could have been told by the Holy Spirit that he is the one who should stop the beatings on FBCJ.

IT IS WRITTEN said...

Anon 12:22am stated...."You didn't think, did you, that just by pointing your finger at others you would distract God from seeing all your misdoings and from coming down on you hard?"......."WHAT"!!!!.."DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?"...While you're trashing Dr.Dog would you at least be fair and also clearly explain Mac's transgressions!!!...........Anon 12:22am you also stated...."Get some GUTS and take time to do what this verse has said. Brunson has admitted he is a sinner, yet he never pointed any fingers at Watchdog except for call him a sociopath, and for good reason."[Rom.2:1-8]"

April 15, 2009 12:22 AM

Anon 12:22....Do you have any idea who this verse is addressing???..."DO YOU"???...MAC HAS ADMITTED TO NOTHING!!!......."Please" tell me what was Mac apologizing for?......What sin was he claiming he had done???....."WHAT?".....Again another Mac supporter comes in attempting to use Scripture,and yet has no idea what there quoting or what it means,and miss applying it!!!..I see why you Macpeople can neither see Mac for who he is,and what he is doing!!!!....You're ignorant of what the Scriptures are truly saying,being mislead by a deceptive,sly,manipulative man who is leading you down the primrose path to nowhere!!!!.."YOU CAN'T SEE JESUS CLEARLY BECAUSE MAC'S IN THE WAY"!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

The person who commented at 12:22 a.m. reminded me of this passage because of their words and twisting of scripture to suit their purposes:

Joh 16:2 They will put you out of (expel you from) the synagogues; but an hour is coming when whoever kills you will think and claim that he has offered service to God.
Joh 16:3 And they will do this because they have not known the Father or Me.
Joh 16:4 But I have told you these things now, so that when they occur you will remember that I told you of them. I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you.


Persecution will also come from 'religious' people. And they will actually believe they are doing God a service. That commenter sounds like Tom needs protection for his family.

Anonymous said...

"5. Lastly, we love ourselves - yes that's right OURSELVES! We believe we are right, always right - not sometimes right, once in a while right, on an occasion right, ALWAYS right. Sometimes people (heathens) don't thing we are right and say things about us, but if we have to we simply ask people to make sure that we are ultimately found to be right. We have people (if you know what I mean). We know we are right because it has always been that way. We have a pastor who talks directly to God and he says all of the time "God" said for me to tell you this or that and like EF Hutton, we listen and obey, because he is the "Senior Pastor" - duh!"

This was written by a person (the whole comment) who knows absolutely nothing about scripture except what some human tells them. It is quite scary, this comment.

Always right, huh?

The more I read of FBCJAX comments, the more I realize it is not a church at all. There is no point explaining that because they would not get it anyway. But those reading here who are immersed in study themselves will get it.

God's Child said...

"Do you really believe it is alright for Pastor Brunson to call him names, discredit him and tell the Deacon committee horrible things that are not even proven against them, this created a lynchman mentality within the committee. Now these things are proven to be lies, slanderous comments made by a man that was angry that he was being questioned, an authority figure who was above reproach." -Anon. 12:25

Hmm, ya think this goes the other way JUST as easily? Yep. I'm appalled that the Rich's would do something like this. I know who they are, I know their other family, and frankly, I would have thought they would have had more maturity and balls to NOT do something like this. You say that WD is the victim. You say that Brunson is the one saying slanderous words, calling WD names, and telling the Deacons horrible things about WD, yet what is WATCHDOG doing? That is exactly what he is doing! And it makes me so mad that everyone can just look past that and blame everything on FBC. How foolish and what a contradiction! You aren't making things better, you are simply pointing out everything the WD is guilty of. I'm sure his family is ashamed to be related to him.

IT IS WRITTEN said...

"Tom Rich is in a bad position now though, because his sociopathic nature and narcissism tells him to keep up the abuse so he does not look weak. But his conscious, if he even has one, could have been told by the Holy Spirit that he is the one who should stop the beatings on FBCJ.

April 15, 2009 8:20 AM"

Well we get a chance to see the mind set of a die-hard Macperson in Pardon 5000...Please tell me this is not your normal FBCJ MEMBER???....This can't be true???.....Pardon 5000 also where is the book of "CRAP" in the Scriptures???....I believe that should be the name of Mac's book on Pastoring!!!!!

IT IS WRITTEN said...

"I would have thought they would have had more maturity and "balls" to NOT do something like this.....April 15, 2009 8:36 AM"........These Macporters continue to amaze us with their Biblical "VOCABULARY" things such as "crap" and "ball".....Please again help me DR.Dog!!!!What in the world has become of FBCJ????....What are they teaching these days down there???

IT IS WRITTEN said...

"CRAP"..."BALLS"...I guess the apple does'nt fall far from the tree!!..The Pastor calls Dr.Dog all kinds of things, and the Macporters follow the lead of their leader!!!!!

Barry said...

Several times it has been mentioned that MB is called to live up to or be held to a higher standard. I am not sure I understand this.

Whether it is MB, WD, me or any other Christian, the standard is Christ. At least that is how I understand scripture when I read it. The bible says, Be holy as I am holy.

Now if WD is not required to live up to this standard as a Christian then what standard beneath this is his or my goal?

I really would like to know because if the standard I am going to be held to is less than holiness that would permit me to less determined to live without sinning. I will be able to relax some and not worry so much the sin in my life but be able to point out the sin of those who MUST live to a greater standard.

Life can be so much simple this way.

I apologize if this rambles on but I am trying to put all this together in my mind. I, personally, find it refreshing not to have to worry as much about my sin since I am not held to an equal standard.

Anonymous said...

God's Child...8:36 am post,

Dr. Brunson could have averted 'the blog' by answering questions and being accountable. He has the greater responsibility as a pastor and community leader. Dr. Brunson still refuses to 'clearly' acknowledge his wrong doing by calling WD names in the newspaper artcile last week. His attempt at an apology is a poor example to other Christians who are looking to him for leadership and as an example in their own lives.

Please defend Dr Brunson's actions if you can...don't attack WD...this is about Dr Brunson.

Barry said...

Please defend Dr Brunson's actions if you can...don't attack WD...this is about Dr Brunson.Thank you for helping me further see that WD is not biblically held to the standard of Christ as we must hold MB.

Thank you for letting me see that WD can say what he wants about MB but should not be held accountable or responsible for his own words.

My difficulty here is the putting of MB on a pedestal of higher accountability while not needing to be held accountable ourselves to the same standard (holiness). Yet, I must say, I do like the idea of having a lesser standard or requirement to meet as someone not of the cloth.

An honest questions: If holiness is not the standard I should be reaching for, what is? If holiness is the standard I am to be reaching for, what is it above holiness that MB is to be reaching for? If it is the same for both, how can anyone say he is held to a higher standard?

Anonymous said...

The more I read of FBCJAX comments, the more I realize it is not a church at all. There is no point explaining that because they would not get it anyway. But those reading here who are immersed in study themselves will get it.Kinda arrogant.

Rewritten below for the many of us who disagree with WD. Just trying to be of help for we ignorant souls.

Those who say things I would not say or do things I would not do or behave in a manner I would not behave are less able to know truth as those like me who are immersed in the study of scripture.Is that how you witness to or encourage people you place beneath you?

Anonymous said...

But, to question the pastor, with legitimate concers.When did WD question the pastor? What WD did was go public and sow discord among the brethren, using the internet to cast doubt and get others to cast doubt towards MB.

Maybe all the things WD questioned the public world about MB are true but WD did not question MB, He raised questions in other peoples hearts and lives against MB. I think this is clearly sowing discord among the brethren and Proverbs 6 speaks directly to this subject.

When did WD go and ask MB anything?

I think you are mistaken to say WD questioned to pastor about anything.

justannesopinion said...

As a Jax resident who has no involvement with FBC, I was curious about this blog because of news coverage. I just wanted to say that it's well written and enjoyable, and the tone seems balanced, although obviously the writer has a point of view.

Anonymous said...

Hey, I'm sorry to hear that your identity got outed by some shady policemen, but I gotta say its gotten your blog a lot of press.

I certainly wouldn't have found this blog if I hadn't read the story about them trying to shut you down.

Keep up the good fight!

Dee Lauderdale said...

"Pardon 5000 also where is the book of "CRAP" in the Scriptures???."


Philippians 3:8. The word translated "rubbish" or "dung" is actually much stronger than even "crap".

Dee Lauderdale
www.deelauderdale.com

Anonymous said...

How many lawsuits do you think are ultimately going to come out of this blog? Just in todays reading I see, oh, about 10.

IT IS WRITTEN said...

Jesus siad "to much which is given,much is required"!!!...James wrote that "many should not want to be teachers(pastor),for the judgment will be more severe"!!!..The Scriptures hold Pastor's to a higher calling,because they are supposedly speaking for God Himself;His words to the people...The only words coming out of Mac's mouth is that Dr.Dog is a homosexual,obessive compulsive,and sociopath"!!!... Now forgive me for my ignorance...But I just don't think God's speaks like that!!!.And Mac most definetly is not speaking for God!!!

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

10:19 - You're right. Team Brunson attacks WD because CLEARLY they CANNOT defend Mac's actions.

When they can come to the table with legimate defenses for Mac's actions, THEN we can talk. Otherwise, they're just carrying on like so many bratty kids

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