Matthew 7:15 (NIV) “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matthew 24:11: (NIV) “…and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”

2 Timothy 2:23 - 25 (NIV) - 23Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. 24 A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth.

Saturday, September 25, 2010

Caner Retaliates: Bloggers are "Frustrated People in their Basement" and "It Takes More than Edited Videos to Bring me Down"

Yesterday, Ergun Caner apparently decided to do what he told his church a few weeks ago that he would not do: he has decided to "take the bait and retaliate".

The Lynchburg News and Advance reported this morning that yesterday at a Bristol, VA prayer breakfast Caner addressed the Liberty University investigation, downplayed the seriousness of the allegations, took a swipe at his blogger critics, and basically said "any pastor in America" would be in trouble for lying if they listend to 200 hours of their sermons.

This sickens me. If you ever thought Caner was repentant for his 8 1/2 years of perpetual exaggerations to congregations all over the United States about his past, you were wrong. I will admit, I was wrong. At least Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker had the sense to appear as though they were repentant. Swaggart at least shed a few public tears and looked to the heavens and declared he had sinned. Not Caner. He is full steam ahead, attack the critics, mischaracterize the allegations that led to his dismissal as seminary president, and to top it all off, he feels compelled to brush all pastors to be just like him. Shameless, shameless, shameless.

Thank you Liberty University and Jonathan Falwell - you have created this monster by mishandling this entire fiasco. You waited to investigate until the main stream media got involved. You pooh-poohed the bloggers' claims until the press realized we were telling the truth. Then and only then did you do an investigation, but then refused to release any the investigative committee report findings, and simply slapped him on the wrist and kept him at your university. He now will use his position as "Professor at Liberty University" to continue his speaking circuit - and while he may tone down his rhetoric of being "raised in Europe" and learning of America from Turkish television - it seems he is content to use his engagements to mischaracterize what has happened in 2010 that led to his dismissal to rehabilitate his image and keep the gravy train rolling.

Let me say this as well: in the News and Advance article you'll read that he speaks of his conversations with the LU investigative team, and that Caner refers to "edited videos" as though somehow the evidence against him was manufactured. Well, I would like to speak about my knowledge of the evidence used by the LU investigative team, and I can assure it was not "edited videos". You see, like Caner, I too had conversations with the LU investigative team. I was contacted by a very respected member of the LU faculty whose last name everyone reading this would immediately recognize. In their quest of the truth about their seminary president the team needed to get copies of sermons that were not available on the Internet. This faculty member didn't apparently view me as a "frustrated person in his basement" and considered me a very reliable source for copies of complete, "unedited" sermons. This person told me that they did read the blogs but desired to get complete copies to hear Caner's statements in their full context.

This faculty member was very kind and gracious, and appreciative of me being willing to share information that had been removed from the Internet including the infamous FBC Jacksonville November 2001 sermon, and the four classic Caner sermons delivered to the the Ohio Free Will Baptist men's retreat in early 2007. So while Caner told the bunch up at Bristol that it was "edited videos" that couldn't bring him down, I can assure you, the committee investigating him sought original, complete, in-context statements made in his sermons. But he didn't tell the Bristol bunch that.

It is too bad that Caner is going this route. I don't know why he did not just come out after his month-long haitus following his dismissal as seminary president and make a blanket confession of exaggerations and ask for people to forgive him, and then move on. Instead it seems the approach is to take pot shots here and there at his critics, paint himself as a victim of frustrated bloggers out to "take him down", to continue to use congregations and speaking engagements to defend himself, and mischaracterize what happend this year. Perhaps he has every intention of still telling his stories - after all, yesterday at Bristol he rolled out the 'ole "Jesus died on a cross so I didn't have to strap a bomb on myself" routine.

Lastly, I want to make a comment about this statement from Caner:
“Every pastor in America, ask them if you can go through 200-odd hours of your sermons. Would they find where you said your kids’ names wrong or dates wrong? Yeah, of course. You just smile and move on.”
So his view is that if every pastor in America had an examination of 200 or so hours of their sermons, we'll find the same kinds of lies that were found in his. Well, I myself didn't have to go through 200 hours of your sermons, Ergun.

All I had to do was go through 0.75 hours, Ergun, when you came to First Baptist Jacksonville in November 2001, and lied to us about your past to convince us that you were a trained terrorist who was in Islamic Jihad, trained in Europe. That has nothing to do with your kids' names or dates. It has to do with you misleading us about your past, and who you were, which helped to create a caricature of yourself as a former terrorist trained in Europe in Islamic Jihad. And you still haven't apologized to the people of First Baptist Jacksonville for your lies in our pulpit in 2001 that helped launch you to SBC-stardom. I hope you have at least privately apologized to Jerry Vines, who sat behind you nodding and amening as you lied to our congregation that morning.

And Ergun, you're wrong about other pastors. None of my pastors - none of them - have ever lied to me about where they were raised, or born, or when they learned English, etc. None, not one, ever.

Pastors, I hope you appreciate Caner trying to lump you all into one category as being liars just waiting for disgruntled bloggers to dig up your lies. Sad that to defend himself, he is content in dragging his cohorts down to his level.

Shame on you, Ergun.

110 comments:

Anonymous said...

He's still using the ridiculous line about Jesus strapping a cross to himself so Ergun didn't have to strap a bomb to himself. After everything that's happened, he's still claiming that becoming a Christian saved him from becoming a suicide bomber.

John Wylie said...

All I can say is wow. Wouldn't it be easier to just address the issues? Ergun is responsible for perpetuating this mess, because if he dealt with this a long time ago, he would have this largely behind him. You know, like ripping the bandaid off.

Thy Peace said...

I do not see any presence of The Holy Spirit in Ergun Caner or his words or actions. Now I know why so many churches and christians are dead. I pray that The Holy Spirit will convict Ergun Caner of his lies, deceit and sins.

Fredericka said...

What a shame, now this will go on forever.

Anonymous said...

Most every house I visit has no basement in it. I suggest he pick a more revelant avenue or place to dwell against his critics. I assume it must be the right wing conspiracy again. Repentance is difficult for some people including some pastors I have met over the years. Bending the knee is normally easy for a Christian but once you keep stepping into the tar bucket the more difficult it is to get out and face reality.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Inaccurate statement in the News & Advance article:

"Born in Sweden to Turkish parents and raised as a Sunni Muslim, Caner converted to Christianity after his family moved to Ohio."

His mother was Swedish, not Turkish. Just want to set the record straight. And he converted to Christianity much, much after coming to Ohio, as he moved to Ohio when he was 3.

"Mom, can you bring more Doritos down here to the basement??"

Anonymous said...

I am a pastor in Jacksonville, FL and have been in pastoral ministry for over 30 years. I take great personal offense at this statement that all pastors lie in their preaching. I am very conscious to never ever even remotely exaggerate the truth, let alone fabricate lies. This reflects a very terrible view of the noble calling of preaching the Word, of being men of integrity and being above reproach if he thinks lying is an acceptable part of preaching. It is bad enough for the ministry of the Word to be so misused today by all of the psycho-babble and self-help stuff that is passed off as preaching the Word, but now to simply assume that lying is acceptable is just reprehensible. I am offended and sickened. How dare he malign the character and reputation of other ministers of the Word by assuming that we are all like him.

Anonymous said...

YAWN.

Anonymous said...

Caner seems to think Christians are credulous misfits who become enamored of his wit and "anointed" celebrity.

He reminds me of (and even bears resemblance to) the arrogant, pugnacious internet apologist JP Holding.

These guys are so bad for the Faith.

Debbie Kaufman said...

It's interesting to me that he used the blog SBCToday for his purposes. Over and over again for about 2 years. He just insulted his one ally in this. I had a feeling with no repentance he couldn't stand the lack of fame for long that was based on his false past history. I wondered how long it would be before he began the stories again. Not long. Except now there is proof on the internet that what he is saying is just not true.

Anonymous said...

I too am a pastor, and while I am certain there are times that I have mixed up a date, a biblical reference, or mixed up a name - - I never, ever would intentionally lie from the pulpit, make up my background or repeatedly lead my congregation astray.

I assure you that many pastors can use hyperbole or make mistakes, I will add myself to that list - - but to straight up lie and make up stories is a violation of trust and I personally believe should disqualify one from preaching the Gospel.

Andrew M.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFn-fzmNsgA


Here's a video of Ergun Caner made in the basement of his home. He's a frustrated person. :)

Anonymous said...

Same song, second verse!

The Other Tom said...

Considering E. Michael Caner's history, is anybody really surprised that he did this?

Lydia said...

Kind of interesting that our new president of NAMB, Kevin Ezell, gives Caner some cover with his own nasty remark about bloggers.

Anonymous said...

Andrew M and other reputable ministers.: Thank you for your faithfulness to the Word. It is good to hear from men that truly want to serve rather than "take" from the ministry. Maybe if more of you speak out about practices of this sort going on, it will create an atmosphere that is uncomfortable for those that use the ministry for their own aims. It is the arrogance by some of the longtime leadership that creates this climate and therefore, they become enablers of false doctrine. I think the arrogance contributes to denial because some won't EVER admit they are wrong or that they have been used and duped themselves. Therefore, they continue to provide "cover" for those that use the ministry for their own ends.

Anonymous said...

Bloggers arn't the problem. Bloggers just try to keep "em" honest. There wouldn't be any bloggers without the corruption in the first place. Too much swept under the rugs.

Anonymous said...

Be careful WD they are attempting to discredit you. We need you. Clinton machine comes to mind!

Anonymous said...

The ONLY thing that will work to deal with Caner is if parents start refusing to pay for Liberty.

Then, Liberty will actually get rid of Caner for good.

That is the extent of thier ethical position. Remember Townes' first reaction? That is the true Liberty. Those poor investigators were probably told that the leadership was serious. They weren't. Can you imagine working in that sick swamp of sin knowing how unethical your leadership really is? I hope some of them who have a scintilla of honesty left will get out of there.

Dee said...

Tom
Thank you for staying on this story.I am so glad that you were contacted by an LU professor. It gives me hope that someone was trying to get at the truth. Good for you for having that sermon. See, God had several purposes for you attending FBC Jax but I am not sure that a certain pastor would agree!

Caner seems to have some sort of issue with the truth and I hope he is getting counseling. I have been blessed with some wonderful pastors in my life and I take offense at Caner for accusing them of purposeful lying.This man seems vengeful, confused and unstable. Why do groups still bring him in to speak? He needs help, not another speaking engagement.

Well, got to put on my house robe and repair to the basement. I prefer the crunchy Cheetos.

Anonymous said...

As a student at LBTS, I know that Caner being called a "teacher" is an exaggeration. To be a teacher, one should actually teach something or someone.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

WD Readers: many of you probably have read comments by a certain Baptist lay pastor named Joe Blackmon - he is a somewhat regular commentor on Wade's blog and Debbie Kaufman's blog.

You might want to go read this post at Debbie K's blog, as she has published an absolutely hateful email she received today from Joe Blackmon, having to do with Eddie Long, the mega church pastor accused of having sex with young men.

Making matters worse, is Joe's email sent to Debbie calling her a disgusting name came just as Debbie is recovering from surgery. Pray for Debbie's healing at this time, and pray for Joe Blackmon, and pray for any churches that might actually be having this man into their congregation to preach.

Anonymous said...

All the world is a stage and the people players on it. I think Shakespeare said this or something close to it. What most actors do is create imaginary circumstances,to others its reality. These few are confused intellectually, whereby, truth is an illusion. To go through life believing an illusion is a waste. Until there is a change of heart life is a constant turmoil.

Anonymous said...

WD you said; "Shame that in defending himself, he is content to drag his cohorts down to his level". The answer to that is: His cohorts don't have to go with him!

Anonymous said...

Contact the leaders of the places Caner speaks and inform them of your concerns about him. Contact the religion editor of the local news outlets.

The more potential audiences hear of his egregious behavior, the more likely he (and the leaders who use him) will be forced into accountability.

LA

Anonymous said...

Great Summary From This Anon - Worth Reposting!

"Bloggers arn't the problem. Bloggers just try to keep "em" honest. There wouldn't be any bloggers without the corruption in the first place. Too much swept under the rugs."

September 25, 2010 7:54

Anonymous said...

"Caner seems to have some sort of issue with the truth and I hope he is getting counseling."

I also think Caner has an issue with being a celebrity and being on a stage. He could never give it up.

Anonymous said...

Blogs are a tool of satan to create a greater divide between the children of God. Sure, people do wrong, but it is not right to lamblast people just to make yourself feel better. You are not "just keeping them honest". You have an axe to grind and this is the forum you choose to do it. Everyone on this forum needs to spend more time on their knees and less time on the computer (myself included).

Anonymous said...

Blogs are a tool of satan to create a greater divide between the children of God. Sure, people do wrong, but it is not right to lamblast people just to make yourself feel better. You are not "just keeping them honest". You have an axe to grind and this is the forum you choose to do it. Everyone on this forum needs to spend more time on their knees and less time on the computer (myself included).

September 26, 2010 10:40 AM

Blogs are wonderful! Especially when openness and transparancy are the focus. They have outed charlatans and allowed people to see the evil behind stage on many churches. It is a duty to put sunlight on evil in our churches.

Sweeping it under the rug, as it always has been done, has people supporting evil!

They are also educating people on what is the true Body of Christ.

Of course, those perpetuating the evil will hate blogs. And those who have unknowingly supported evil will let pride take over and not want to admit they went along. So blogs are a threat to them, too.

From blogs we have been able to see how pew sitters have looked the other way when perverts in the church have been outed. Some even go to great lengths to support them because they said 'sorry'. We know from this the depths of evil and ignorance that has permeated our churches.

We also got a good taste of the depths of evil and ignorance over the Caner issue. There are literally "Christians" out there supporting a long time liar and thnking it is no big deal.

Our churches are mission fields. Starting with many pastors. But we have been warned from scripture about the hirlings and wolves. Too bad some are so biblically ignorant they cannot see it.

Just remember, a true teacher of the Word is always transparent and open. So, a blog would only be able to encourage and support such a person. Because there would be nothing to report.

Anonymous said...

Blogs are a work of Satan. Yes some are but not this one. It shines as a beacon in a dark hole (secularism, anti-christ, false doctrine, shady dealings, etc)being the targets. Truth is never afraid of the light and as a matter of fact enjoys the light being shined on it so that the whole world may see. You believe what you want to believe regardless of the outcome and you will one day realize you live in a dream world and not the REAL WORLD. Get over this idea that truth is in the eye of the beholder.

Anonymous said...

I cannot believe this. It is so bad on many levels.

Plus, it raises an issue that had been dormant. If EC wants to keep this issue alive and continue to re-argue it, it will keep him and Liberty in the news, debate and controversy. That is not good for EC or Liberty. Maybe neither cares.

However, maybe EC doesn't care, but Liberty does. Time will tell.

Louis

Anonymous said...

How is any of this back and forth backbiting growing the Kingdom. Satan is sitting back and laughing at those of you who choose to enjoy the failures of another. Shame on you. This is sick. The reason you are pointing at the faults of EC is because it takes the attention off of your own faults. These blogs serve no purpose. It is not our duty to separate the wheat from the tares. God is fine at doing that Himself without your help. Learn Scripture, Read Romans 14-15. Please shut down this bastion of hate.

BibleWheel said...

Anon said "Satan is sitting back and laughing at those of you who choose to enjoy the failures of another."

It seems to me much more likely that "Satan is sitting back and laughing" because he's got his boy Ergun Caner in the pulpit proving to the entire world that Christians are LIARS and that Christian institutions like Liberty University knowingly employ LIARS and that even some of the most famous Christian apologists like Norman Geisler actively support LIARS and the LIES they tell.

.

Anna A said...

Anonymous 5:49 pm

I believe that we are called to be Christ-like.

If memory serves me, Christ chased out the moneychangers and the sellers of animals out of the Temple at least once. He overturned tables and used a whip.

He also called the Pharisees "white washed tombs" which was a very powerful insult.

I think that the bloggers are being Christ-like.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:49

I do agree that lots of comments on this and other blogs can contain hate.

But here we have an issue when a leader in the Christian church has not been truthful.

The matter was investigated and it was found that EC had not been truthful, and Liberty took action that it thought was appropriate.


EC has started arguing again, however, that he was not untruthful and that others are to blame for an unfair appearance of untruthfulness. That is simply not the case.

So, while I agree that it really would be good if we could concentrate on positive things, the church should not sit by while it's spokesmen say things that are untrue. That does not bring glory to Christ either.

Louis

Debbie Kaufman said...

Anonymous: If we don't stand for integrity as Christians who will? Obviously not you.

You throw a passage around that is taken out of context, Romans 14 and 15 is not talking about those who sin, it is talking about differences, lying is a sin, therefore Romans 14 and 15 has nothing to do with this situation.
To allow those who lie to continue without saying anything is wrong. You are right. This is hate. Hate for lying, hate for lack of integrity, hate that Christians give this type of behavior a standing ovation.Hate that folks like you dare defend his actions, dare to lecture us, for his failings. Hate that this does harm to those we are trying to reach and totally mocks the Gospel. For you to excuse this type of behavior is the insanity. And wrong. So don't lecture us, I know and admit my weakness, if Ergun would do the same, stop his speaking until he settles this, he would be doing the right thing. We need to put Christ back into our churches, we left him out a long time ago. Ergun talks little of Christ and a lot about himself.

It is not us who have done wrong for speaking out, Ergun brought this on himself when he decided not just to lie, but to continue even after facts to the contrary came out.

Yep. Your comment made me a tad angry anonymous, and that you would even go this route, dare take scripture out of context, makes me even angrier. Proper interpretation of the Bible is paramount.

Anonymous said...

Incredible. The man really believes all this is about he got some names and dates incorrect during over 200 sermons? He is either delusional or a liar!

I wish someone had sermon tapes of him BEFORE 9/11 to see if he lied and embellished his story BEFORE that tragedy allowed him to become rich and famous?

And Liberty, all I can say to you is ....REALLY?

Anonymous said...

Ergun is simply testing the waters to see just how gullible his listeners are. As well as his employer and students. And those that would dare to hire a Liberty graduate. Not me!

Anonymous said...

I know where my pastor is from, the names of his kids, what his father did, when he was born. He has never accidentally "misspoke" about any of those types of things. Not really relevant to what Ergun lied about since Ergun lied about speaking Arabic (we now know he spoke GIBBERISH!) and being trained to "do that which was done eleven september..."

Anyone else have a pastor speak gibberish while claiming it was a foreign language? No? Any claim to be terrorist? Accidentally or misspeak those things over 200 sermons? No. Hmmmm. Try again Ergun. Did Liberty really believe you?

Anonymous said...

These guys hate bloggers because despite their huge resources (that we gave the money for them to have in the first place) like microphones, television programs, video series, fancy degrees, endorsement of pastors that invite them, and on and on, they still can't carry the day against a blogger. That must be very frustrating. Imagine if we could have the microphone for just five minutes after their sermons... We could discredit and expose them and their message. Of course they can't allow that, but they can't stop their congregations, students, peers, and even their wives and children, from reading the truth on a blog.

Must be frustrating for an arrogant know it all to have his views and character challenged by a blogger who is comparatively a "nobody." Even if that blogger has a wife, kids, multiple masters degrees or is in his mom's basement.

Anonymous said...

As for Eddie Long and Ergun Caner and Mac Brunson...these guys don't bother me. I get it. They love fame, and money, and pleasure. What irks me is when they are exposed, their congregations accept them as if nothing happened. No accountability. No transparency.

What would Jesus think about these guys? Would he stand silent? Would they (religious leaders) crucify him if he called them out? Oh, we already know the answer to that. "Give us Barrabus."

CraigD2599 said...

So...you were contacted by the LU investigation committee> Reeeallly? The committee that claimed not to have contacted anyone? I wonder which of the committee members were pumping you with information.

CraigD2599 said...

Tommy Rich!! Is that really you?? I wondered what became of you after your pro wrestling career ended. I heard you went to law school but never actually practice law...except for frivolous lawsuits against the city of Jacksonville.
I am still mad at Austin Idol for jumping you and putting the figure 4 on you and tearing cartilage in your knee. That was awful.
Good luck in your multiple lawsuits...

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Hi Craig - first, I want to thank you for not threatening my physical safety in your comment. I hope you have been getting some anger management counseling - perhaps you have, since your post seems a tad more friendly this time.

Secondly, yes, I was contacted by a member of the LU committee as was at least one other blogger to my knowledge. I did not seek them out, they sought me out. The committee members were in need of obtaining complete sermons that contained the Caner remarks and thus they reached out to us. They needed an entire copy of the FBC Jax November 2001 sermon, which I have maintained since my post on this last March was the most offending, as it really was the launching point of his meteoric rise in SBC-stardom, along with the infamouse Prestonwood Baptist sermon about that same time. It was a deceptive sermon, one that I personally was present for, and thus I can vouch for the impact it had on me and others - Caner successfully convinced us he was a trained terrorist that was saved in the nick of time. He didn't tell us that he lived in Columbus since the age of 3. I was there, and have talked to others who were there. We were duped by Caner.

The person who contacted on the LU committee I will not name. You would recognize his name if I told you. However, I feel compelled to publicly speak about this contact with the committee, to refute the claims by Caner that it was "edited videos" that were used to "bring him down". No, the committee made every effort to obtain unedited copies of sermons. I provided them the FBC Jax sermon, as well as the Ohio Free Will Baptist sermons that had been removed from the Internet about the time the committee began its investigation.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Hi Craig - that is very funny! You and I are about the same age, so yes I do remember Tommy "Wildfire" Rich the professional wrestler! Funny story, when I was in school at UF in the early 80s they held professional wrestling event at the O'Connell Center on campus, and in the school paper was a picture from the event of two pretty girls with T-shirts that said "We love Tommy Rich". I cut it out and sent it back home to my family.

Anonymous said...

How many times have you seen this tactic attempted in the comment section of this blog?

Avoiding Correction (video):
http://str.convio.net/site/PageServer?pagename=blog_iframe

CraigD2599 said...

Best To Johnnie...

CraigD2599 said...

You mean those video's weren't edited...really? You linked arms with a guy who has called for Caner's death and another guy who has covered his father's molesting his sister and you think that renders you credible? As for the members of the committee..I know all the names. And pretty sure I know who contacted you...you are "watchdog" he is "lapdog".

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Craig - ....hey buddy...you're not helping your friend Ergun with your words. You're hurting him. But keep talking, so long as you aren't threatening anyone. Unlike you, Craig, I will let you post here, because it is instructive to my readers to see the calibre of person who is Caner's chief defender.

CraigD2599 said...

At least Ergun's friends sign their names. Grow a pair!

Anonymous said...

READ YOUR BIBLE PEOPLE--RAHAB LIED TWICE YET GOD BLESSED HER!!!! She is in the "Hall of Faith" (Heb.11)

So all this business about God cursing and forsaking a person who lies is a bunch of lies!!!

Ergun was like Rahab...It was necessary for him to be able to expose a Lie (Islam), so therefore, Ergun told a lie. Same thing as Rahab!

Before you pour out your venom on Ergun, remember...he did not fly planes into the World Trade Center.

Bennett Willis said...

Craig D. You may recall that Squirrel was also contacted and reported this back on June 28. He mentioned the name of the person who had contacted him so you could check to see if it was "lapdog."

It was interesting that the committee did take the trouble to "listen to the data." And as a result EC was removed as an administrator at LU. You seem to think that getting good data before making a decision is a bad idea.

I had been impressed that none of the EC defenders had shown up. I thought that you all had matured and recognized that you made the problem worse rather than better. It is reassuring to find out that I was wrong in this conclusion.

I had really enjoyed seeing your softer side and regret that you decided to remove that post from your web site.

Anonymous said...

Craig D - it is nice to see you back. :0

These preachers need to "grow a pair" and let the donors know how much of "God's money" they are taking for themselves and their wives and family's salaries. They are afraid of what might happen if the congregation knew how much their total compensation (salary and all benefits and allowances) added up to.

Who cares if a blogger signs his comments or not? I would be more concerned about "pairless" preachers not divulging how they are siphoning off funds given "to God" for their own family and branding. Don't you agree?

GG

Dr Ergun Caner said...

So Craig D-stroyer is following the lead of his hero and going back on the attack.

Not.Very.Smart.

I'd like to see Ergun Caner come right out and *explicitly declare* that all the video evidence against him has been edited and falsified.

Won't happen. He knows he can hint about it or vaguely suggest it, but cannot go on record explicitly delaring it.

Wow. It must stink to be demoted due to audio/video evidence that has been edited to make it look like you've lied for 9 years when you really haven't. I would think he'd be upset with LU for demoting him when he is innocent.... instead he seems happy just to still be around.

Craig is a nut job said...

"I had really enjoyed seeing your softer side and regret that you decided to remove that post from your web site."

For her sake I hope Craig's "one true love" woke up and ran for the hills. Do not look back lady!

CraigD2599 said...

Bennett....which post are you refering? My softer side is alive and well. But I also have teeth. If you knew the BS they are putting this man through you'd be outraged as well. To be honest Tom here is mild compared to those who are buying up website domains with Erguns childrens names on them or trying to access his sons birth certificate. If someone tried that with my daughter I would have zero problem with laying a baseball bat between their eyes. If I am defending Ergun poorly, what are you folks doing by siding with people who behave like that? This entire event has removed any desire at all to enter anything that looks like ministry. I'm staying on the periphery where its safe.

WishIhadknown said...

So it’s ok to lie as long as it accomplishes God’s purpose. Is that what you teach your children, it’s ok to lie? And who, pray tell, get’s to decide what God’s purpose is? Would you tolerate this same behavior in your Doctor? Lawyer? Accountant? Does that not make us the same as any other pagan non-believer?

This isn’t just about lying; it’s also about someone who is exploiting the tragedy of 9/11 for his own selfish self interest.

Bennett Willis said...

Craig,
Didn't you delete an August post about how nice life was for you at that time? I won't go into the details because if you wanted them known, you surely would have left that post up.

You seem to feel that there is some global conspiracy and that anyone who points out EC's enhancements to his life story is a part of that. Want to name names or offer some proof of what you perceive? Your credibility is not very high with me so I need some documentation before I will believe you.

Anonymous said...

"What irks me is when they are exposed, their congregations accept them as if nothing happened. No accountability. No transparency. "

This is really the bigger problem. We will always have hirlings and wolves. It is the people who support them that are the real problem.

They are lemmings.

Craig is a nut job said...

"Didn't you delete an August post about how nice life was for you at that time?"

I remember two posts but they've been deleted. Craig was in looove with some woman. Lady must have come to her senses after she saw his baseball bat.

John Wylie said...

Dr. Albert Mohler has written a great blog post about accountability in the Bishop Long scandal in Atlanta. http://ow.ly/2Kz6I

Anonymous said...

Craig also doesn't want to deal with the wealth of primary sources, i.e. Yearbooks, Ergun's own books, Ergun's own sermons, legal documents, articles in secular papers, and would rather just deal with the one thing that he and his ilk can defend: attack the people asking questions.

Of course, Craig's little more than Peter Lumpkins' lapdog which is infinitely worse...

bill

Anonymous said...

Dr. Albert Mohler has written a great blog post about accountability in the Bishop Long scandal in Atlanta. http://ow.ly/2Kz6I

September 27, 2010 4:59 PM

Mohler needs to worry about his own church. They refused to tell the congregation about the molester that was working there and in the church school. Why? Don't they have a right to know?

And even though Ezell was ot there when the guy was hired, Ezell refused to testify about his working there and claimed pastor confidentiality. If he does not know the guy, why claim that?

Ezell is Mohler made. And our new president of NAMB.

http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2010/09/ezells-failed-leadership-on-sexual.html

New BBC Open Forum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

To be honest Tom here is mild compared to those who are buying up website domains with Erguns childrens names on them or trying to access his sons birth certificate.

Craig, would you kindly show us some evidence to back your claims? I just checked GoDaddy.com and found all permutations of EC's sons' names that I could think of are still available for registration. What would be the point of grabbing up domain names for his sons? I cannot imagine anyone wanting to drag his family into this. Okay, I admit I briefly considered grabbing jeeyall.com, but much like the dog catching the proverbial car, I had no idea what I'd do with it.

Why would anyone care about his kids' birth certificates? Don't tell me someone is claiming he's not their father! I'm afraid you're going to either have to provide some proof or come up with something better than this. This reminds me of the silly people who insisted I and people posting on the NBBCOF had made "death wishes" against Steve Gaines. Anyone who believes that is sick.

Oh, and FYI, I am not a Calvinist, and I don't know James White from Adam. Never even heard of the man before all this and have glanced at his blog a total of 2 or 3 times when someone happened to link to it, but I never stuck around to actually read it. IOW, I'm no "Whitehead."

I think Mo Khan's videos are stupid and that he has an agenda I would not want to be associated with. (I rather enjoyed "DrErgunCaner's" parodies, but sadly, they're all gawn. Gawwwn, I say! I bet Charles is responsible.)

I have listened to several of EC's unedited sermons and speeches and even heard him in person a few years ago, and I've seen the unedited legal documentation others have found, and what I see is a pattern of serial lying. I don't know of any other way to put it. Of course, I could take the LU tack and say he made "factual statements that are self-contradictory," but that's just legalese for "he lied." I see an arrogant, unrepentant man who is taking no responsibility for his own words and blaming his problems on other people. How can his defenders not open their eyes and see the emperor has no clothes?

Anonymous said...

U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E!!!!!!! I was at the Jerry Vines conference at FBC Atlanta just a few weeks ago he started off his sermon very uneasy, as if he was unsure how we would respond and receive him. HE even sounded contrite and his demeanor was, I thought, very understated.
But I guess enough of the pastors at the conference hooted and hollered and patted him on the back and gave him plenty of atta-boys that he felt that he could just come out swinging at the "basement dwelling bloggers".
What a shame this has become. And Tom, you are correct at this point this is not the responsiblity of Ergun Caner alone, it lies firmly at the feet of Jonathon and Jerry Jr. Falwell who have allowed this to go on!

Anonymous said...

Ergun Caner has been the victim of sleezy journalism!

Ergun is one of the most Spiritual Men I have ever met. He has a supernatural anointing on his life.

Have you ever heard him preach? Everyone is captivated by him...why all the hatred? Jealousy??

Dog, how many people have you won to Jesus lately?

We all slip up in our speech. We have all done it!!

"Son, you wouldn't believe it! I just caught a 10 pound catfish!!"

"Well Dad, Watchdog just subpoenaed your catfish and it was only 8 pounds. Your a big fat hairy liar! I will never believe anything you tell me the rest of your life. Dad, you have just forfeited your right to ministry."

PLEASE READ THIS VERSE:

Do not accuse a man for no reason, when he has done you no harm (Pr. 3:30).

New BBC Open Forum said...

Watchdog,

Please tell me anon 8:50 isn't real. You're just making up these comments to illustrate absurdity with absurdity. That's it, isn't it? Please tell me it is because the alternative is too frightening to comprehend.

WishIhadknown said...

"factual statements that are self-contradictory,"
Oh I love it! I gotta remember that one.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Or "it was a mistake of the mind, not the heart." **cough**

Thy Peace said...

Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > Ergun Caner Mocks His Critics and Returns to His Old Tricks

Lynn said...

As an outsider watching this play out, it's fascinating. Caner has changed the subject. The subject was his lies, and now it's the lies of all pastors. He's striking back.

You've dared to call him on his lies, now you're gonna pay.

Nobody enjoys criticism. But speakers with big egos enjoy it even less and will retaliate.

I'll leave it at that. But the main point, which we can all see, is that he's taken people's eyes off his lies and he's redirected those people to a discussion about preachers exaggerations.

It's like someone has committed a big sin, and they stand up and say, "Who among us hasn't sinned? Let's talk about THAT."

Lynn said...

There's a name for why Caner and other big deal preachers get away with anything-the cult of personality. Very powerful thing.

Anonymous said...

"Have you ever heard him preach? Everyone is captivated by him...why all the hatred? Jealousy??"

Yes, we have heard him preach many times through this ordeal. But it was not preaching. That is the point. I do not expect you to get it. Your comment illuminates the fact that you are seriously lost and following man. You do not even recognize consistent lying when you hear it. You love having your ears tickled.

"Dog, how many people have you won to Jesus lately?"

"WE" do not win people to Christ. The Holy Spirit does that. Hudson Taylor was on the mission field for 10 years before he saw one convert and he was a real teacher of the Word. Not a fake, like Caner.

Are you saying that converts are notches on belts?

Paul plants, Apollos waters.....then what? Go and find out. Open your bible instead of listening to false teachers.

Do you have any idea how ignorant you are of basic understanding? Do you have any idea how you and others make Caner look worse?

Yes, it is cult of personality and Caner knows this and thrives on it.

Anonymous said...

Caner has the same talent as Bill Clinton. And he has the same lack of shame for lying. It is all a game.

As a matter of fact, both are good at making the messengers the real problem. Caner takes it a step further and claims it is persecution.

He lied about his background to make it more exciting to get more speaking gigs for 10 YEARS. The lies he told we have proof are lies from court documents.

This response makes Caner a congenital liar and those who support him are supporing his own spiritual demise and will be accountable.

See, Caner knows the masses are gullible. He knows most will be entertained and will like him. He plants the seeds that any evidence against him is planted by those who hate him. How Clever.

Caner is really no different from Bill Clinton. Except that Caner masquerades as a special anointed man of God. Which is worse. He lies for Jesus?

Emir must be holding on by his fingernails.

Doug said...

Fact: Great Salesmen thrive on numbers.

Fact : These are Salesmen who seek those numbers.

Fact : These Baptist Preachers gain power by being Great Salesmen.

Fact : Baptist now are nothing more than Salesmen Marketing pawns who use " Religion and Biblical principle" to achieve personal wealth.

Every Marketing person has a product to sale. These men use Jesus Christ as their "Marketing" product to sale their goods - and oh what a Customer Base they have.

They are no more than Stock Brokers who push stocks and junk bonds. Most of the time these stocks and bonds are worthless and the only person who gains is the STOCKBROKER!

The only person who now gains is the PASTORS who have GONE WILD!

My new motto and phrase for men like these men is ....

" PASTORS GONE WILD "

and boy have they gone wild!


I reject what

Anonymous said...

What do you want to bet that the "YAWN" comment on
September 25, 2010 3:02 PM--was from Lumpkins,Caner or Guthrie...

Anonymous said...

Son, you wouldn't believe it! I just caught a 10 pound catfish!!"

"Well Dad, Watchdog just subpoenaed your catfish and it was only 8 pounds. Your a big fat hairy liar! I will never believe anything you tell me the rest of your life. Dad, you have just forfeited your right to ministry."
__________________________________

Staying with the above example: Watchdog didn't get subpoenas, he simply googled some articles on the internet and found out that I didn't catch any fish. Not only that, I didn't go fishing at all. Not only that, I have never fished in my life. And besides that, you are not even my son. And I had the subpoenas issued against him. Now that would make the above story more applicable to Caner.

Anonymous said...

PLEASE READ THIS VERSE:

Do not accuse a man for no reason, when he has done you no harm (Pr. 3:30).

September 27, 2010 8:50 PM
___________________________________

Yes, I read it. And I ignored it.

Signed: Soud, Hinson, Brunson and the discipline committee and all those at the church who believed what those guys told them about Mr and Mrs Dawg.

Ex N1hilo said...

I doubt that this comment would see the light of day on Craig's blog, so I'm posting it here:

Craig,

It's bad enough that you issue threats of violence against those who disagree with you, but when you blame this propensity on your Italian heritage, you insult all of us sons of Italy. The "wiseguy" act is an ugly caricature.

Further, you divide the Kingdom into Somebodies and Nobodies, with Christian celebrities as the Somebodies, and the rest of God's children as Nobodies. What a perverted view of the Kingdom of God!

Jesus is the only Somebody. The rest are ALL nobodies.

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Just for the record, it was Mohammad that brought the truth to the Christian world. He went to others and was treated very badly, I followed the trail through James White's video to Mohammad.

I am proud to call Mohammad a friend, his videos were brilliant. No one did the leg work this guy did. He was telling the truth and showed that this went further than anyone knew.

Of course he had an agenda. So what? He told the truth. That is more than Christians did and more than some still are doing. To put Mohammad down is what's stupid. It's killing the messenger. The only messenger who dared bring the truth to us. He could have bypassed us. He has always been gracious and kind. Putting down Mohammad, the one who brought all this to the forefront is something I won't allow to happen if I can help it. We need to be thanking him, not trashing him.

Dr Who said...

Debbie K.

I have to correct you or add something to your saying Mohammad first reported Caner.

Unless I am mistaken, I remember reading when Doug P in GA posted issues about Caner on his original website in 2007 about the Caner situations. Both of them Ergun and Emir were exposed, but mostly when Emir was named to run Truett McConnell College. The GBC supports Truett in GA.... and we all know the history of the G B C boys and their back scratching....

I think Mohammad did a great job exposing the rest of the story though.

Just getting it right so others of us who are in our mamas basements knows the right story and history. :)

Anonymous said...

Think of all the people who have to go along with Caner's lies: His wife, the Liberty leadership, Emir Caner, Thomas Road Baptist church and many parents who are paying for Liberty and know about this.

It is nuts. But shows how shallow what we call "Christianity" in this country really is.

Think about his kids 10 years from now running across this stuff and finding out their dad really WAS a liar. Of course, they don't have to believe it, either But Caner is responsbile for that, too.

Debbie Kaufman said...

I and many others did not know of this story until Mohammad brought it. He did not get it from a Doug. Mohammad was in London, where he lives, and saw Ergun on a Christian program speaking. He watched it and noticed the discrepancies right away. He then pursued it from there. Possibly it was brought out in 2007, but I was not aware of the story until watching clicking on a link from a commentator on Wade's blog, watching James White's video clip in Feburary and following it to Mohammad, who had been attempting to show the discrepancies 6 months to a year earlier.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Debbie - I so agree with you on this about Mo Khan. The Tim Rogers and his bunch that were criticizing Caner critics as "teaming up" with a Muslim, and saying he is not to be believed because of his religion, that whole line of reasoning in defending Caner was so ridiculous, and just plain illogical.

If Khan was "anonymous" and never revealed his identity, the would have said you can't trust anonymous sources.

So he puts his name out there to show that he IS a credible source about things Caner claims to be know, and they attack him BECAUSE HE IS A MUSLIM! Who would ever be a credible critic? Anonymous? No, we are cowards. A Christian who is of reformed theology? Nope, they are heretics and out to bring down a "man of God". How about a Muslim who understands fully the religion and language that Caner speaks about? Nope, you know those dirty Muslims, everything they say is lies.

The point, there are NO acceptable critics. They will discount each one as it suits their purposes.

I know. I experienced it - he's a sociopath, don't believe him. He is a liar and a threat, everything on his blog is all lies. He is a coward, and cowards can't be trusted. He is a mail stealer, a stalker, so disassociate with him. This is how these people operate. The people we think are examples of Christianity are anything but that when it comes to their critics.

Love their enemies? One of Jesus' most radical statements about loving one's enemies is ignored by these self-proclaimed "God's men", they choose to ignore. They have no interest in loving their enemies...at best they will ignore them, but the M.O. is to attack, discredit, make up stories, proclaim their mental derangment, attack their religious views.

Whatever it takes, whatever it takes, to keep their power and the power of their friends.

You go Mo. Keep shining the light of truth in darkness.

I'll say what so many preachers like to say: God can use a donkey to declare the truth when God's people won't, so can't he use a Muslim?

New BBC Open Forum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

I stated I thought Mo Khan's videos were stupid and that he had an agenda. I stand by that. I did not say he wasn't credible. I actually believe him when he says Caner is ignorant of what are apparently some of the fundamentals of Islam and that some of the words and phrases he spoke were gibberish. I find him to be very credible because I think if he hadn't been we would have heard someone refute his claims by now, and we haven't.

But while he pointed out many of the discrepancies in Caner's statements, he heavily edited those videos to the point of being ridiculous. He didn't change Caner's words, but looping clips, slowing down the video, the poor spelling and grammar, etc. just detracted from his message. He made fun of Caner's weight which under some circumstances might be fair game (such as if it were a parody video or if Caner were railing against gluttony), but when you're trying to make a serious point why not just show the straight video, insert commentary, and make your points? The point wasn't that Caner is a glutton. He's a serial liar.

Besides, we've got the unedited sermons and speeches, the legal documents, and the word of Christian missionaries familiar with the languages who have stated that what Caner is speaking is gibberish. We don't need to rely solely on the word of a Muslim whose greater agenda, I believe, is to discredit Christianity and make Christians a laughingstock, to prove what we can gather from other, less biased sources. Khan's videos are but a tiny piece of the puzzle. I'm just saying the ends don't always justify the means. Motives matter, and I don't 100% trust Khan's motives. It doesn't mean I don't find him credible though.

Lydia said...

Jason Smathers research was the piece de resistance of the entire scandal. It put official documents up against Caner's constant but inconsistent lies.

Turretin Fan delved deep into the inconsistencies.

Sounds like a team effort to me.

BTW: If most of us had read the exchange between White and Caner from a few years ago concerning the "debate", we would have known Caner had a serious maturity problem. And that he never really debated Muslims. White could find no proof of any debates that Caner had bragged about publicly. And that was what? 2006?

Lydia said...

" Motives matter, and I don't 100% trust Khan's motives. It doesn't mean I don't find him credible though."

I agree. I think the bigger problem is that Khan insists that Caner was NEVER a Muslim at all. I understand his motivation for that even if I disagree with it.

And that was the big defense from Debbie that Khan gets to define what is a Muslim. And if Khan said he was never a Muslim, then it must be true.

Some of us disagreed for many reasons...one, that I have been around all kinds of Muslims since pre teens and many were non- practicing Muslims but described themselves as Muslims. And this definition can hold true for non practicing Muslims because Islam is an ideology that comes complete with it's own civil laws.... so many miss that part.

Two, I think we must define Islam by their own holy writings.

Caner lied about where he was born, when he came here and his upbringing being trained as a terrorist in a Madrassa. Those obvious lies that Smathers 'smashed' were quite enough for a indictment of lying over a 9 year period.

I was uncomfortable with Islam being presented as a religion of peace when it isn't. Even though there are peaceful Muslims.

According to their own holy writings, it is not a religion of peace. It is an ideology that means to propagate itself and it's civil laws using violence if necessary.

BTW: The History of how their holy writings were put together is very interesting.

I was a bit put off with Khan's videos because of the special effect and over editing. I thought they would have come across much better without the slow motion and rapid repeating. But their main point was to prove that Caner cannot claim he was ever a Muslim. And that is something I disagree with even if he was a nominal non practicing Muslim. Khan does not define that for me as Mac does not define what a Christian is for me.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Excellent points, Lydia. I never bought into the "Caner was never a Muslim" idea either. That was a red herring. I think he was a Muslim in much the same way a person whose family went to mass only on Easter and Christmas Eve and who perhaps took the classes and received first communion was a Catholic. I would define that as a "casual" Catholic. Similarly, I'd define Caner as a former "casual" Muslim, but a Muslim nevertheless.

The Other Tom said...

Craig is just a Philly street punk who thinks he can be something by acting the part of an Internet Tough Guy. Unfortunately, one day somebody is going to take his mindless threats seriously, and the results will not be pretty.

Anonymous said...

I am not a "defender" of EC, Mac, Long, or any other person in ministry. I am also a pastor. I understand what it is like to face demons on a daily basis. I do not pretend to have the wisdom to declare guilt or innocence to anyone but myself. Debbie Kaufman said that I took Romans 14-15 out of context. That is not true. I know exactly what Paul was teaching. Paul was teaching us to stop over analyzing each other and find common ground on matters of an eternal nature. Instead of ripping EC apart, why not pray for him? And don't use the "he brought this fight on himself" argument, either. As Christians, we should rise above that type of childish reasoning. The only reason Tom or Kaufman or most of the other bloggers on this site spend their time here is for the purpose of hurt. Why did you not respond to the "wheat and tares" analogy, Mrs. Kaufman? I will answer that for you. You, like so many others, have developed a sense of "super-spirituality". You have dwelt in perfection for so long, it is hard for you to understand how someone could fail. Your flaws are masked in your self absorbtion. You are not "exposing" lies of a man. If EC has lied, God will bring that to the surface and will punish accordingly. What ever happened to the Lord's command of "vengence is mine". The attitudes of Tom, Debbie, and their minions is disgusting. If Jesus were typing, I am certain He would be warning us about being judgmental "lest we too be judged". So, Tom and Debbie, tell us all of your dark secrets. Tell us of all of your failures. Tell us of all the times that you have not been truthful and failed to reveal to those you were untruthful to. And yes, you have been untruthful. If you are going to call someone else out, be willing to face the same scrutiny. You folks are like those on an interstate staring out your window at a wreck just hoping you can see the carnage. Sickening!!

Anonymous said...

" I understand what it is like to face demons on a daily basis."

Oh puleeeese. Pastor, if you think you face demons everyday, go out and work in the REAL world every day.

I get so sick of the typical pastor whine. they have no clue how insulated they are.

You are too ignorant to be a pastor. You are actually saying that Jesus taught we should promote the tares and follow them as leaders. That is what YOUR scriptural analogy turns out to be concerning Caner! That is what you, in effect, are teaching!

(Nevermind what James says about teachers)

Do you not see what a perversion of the Word that is? You are sick for even suggesting such a thing. You would have people following and learning from tares???

"I am certain He would be warning us about being judgmental "lest we too be judged"."

As YOU are "judging" Tom and Debbie in YOUR comment! How rich!!!
What a hypocrite!

But of course, it is OK for you to judge them because you are "paid" to do so. Right? You get a free pass on judging because of your title.


" So, Tom and Debbie, tell us all of your dark secrets. Tell us of all of your failures."

First of all, Caner does not have 'dark secrets'. His lies are all over the place and very public over a 9 year period.

Secondly, Tom and Debbie are not paid professional Christians who teach and live off followers money. If they were, then we should scrutinize every word they say...as Bereans.

Because as we are seeing on blogs, most pastors interpret the Word to their benefit as we have seen you do in your comment. No wonder there is a famine in the land of knowing the Word! The pastors are either ignorant or twisting the Word to their own benefit.

We are not to judge tares! I guess that means Ted Haggard and Matt Baker should get their pastor jobs back.

Sure, Romans is teaching we should ignore evil and lies in the Body. Sure, pastor. For too long, you have not been challenged for what you teach. And that is NOT good for you. Stick around, you might be convicted of the truth of the Word. I am praying for YOUR pew sitters!

Anonymous said...

Amazing the venom spewed out from you folks.

"Oh puleeeese. Pastor, if you think you face demons everyday, go out and work in the REAL world every day."

Unfortunately, I and fellow pastors face the real world everyday in people like you. You actually desire and enjoy declaring the failures of others. If you folks would spend as much effort in the call to evangelize, you would have less time to criticize others. But then again, you must have an evangelical experience first.

"I get so sick of the typical pastor whine. they have no clue how insulated they are."

Why didn't you just say you are sick and tired of pastor's. That is what you really mean. Believe me, we are used to it. You are walking on dangerous ground by speaking so disrespectfully to God's men. But let me guess, you don't consider me God's man. I get it.

"You are too ignorant to be a pastor."

Pure Hate!!!! May God forgive you.

"You are actually saying that Jesus taught we should promote the tares and follow them as leaders. That is what YOUR scriptural analogy turns out to be concerning Caner! That is what you, in effect, are teaching!"

This is a non-sensical argument. That is actually not what I am saying. Jesus was teaching us to not waste our time attempting to determine what are tares and what are wheat because the only evidence is determined inside the produce, an area reserved for His examination. Of course, you seem to already have that figured out. I think I'll wait on God, thanks.

"You would have people following and learning from tares???"

Not a proper assessment of what I said, but then again, it doesn't fit in with your agenda.

"We are not to judge tares! I guess that means Ted Haggard and Matt Baker should get their pastor jobs back."

Are you saying these men aren't Christians? You do know that is what wheat and tares represent, don't you? These men failed, no doubt. I still pray for them, though. I pray I remain in a position where God can use me. We all have the propensity to fail. Including you.

"Sure, Romans is teaching we should ignore evil and lies in the Body. Sure, pastor. For too long, you have not been challenged for what you teach. And that is NOT good for you. Stick around, you might be convicted of the truth of the Word. I am praying for YOUR pew sitters!"

You are sadly misguided. I am challenged daily by the author. I am not perfect in my exegeis of scripture. Neither are you. I pray that God will guide me and teach me. I am not concerened with your "challenge", I am concerened with His!

I do not declare innocence or guilt, and you have no basis for that either. Do you pray for your pastor? Do you pray for Dr. Caner. Do you pray for Dr. Brunson? Have any of these men ever led anyone to Christ? Do you believe them to be false prophets? What, exactly, are your motives? I care not what you think of me. I do care, however, about your personal relationship with Christ. You sound angry! Your words are unholy banter. I don't know Caner, Brunson, or you, but through Christ, I love all and pray for all. God bless!

Anonymous said...

Amazing the venom spewed out from you folks.

"Oh puleeeese. Pastor, if you think you face demons everyday, go out and work in the REAL world every day."

Unfortunately, I and fellow pastors face the real world everyday in people like you. You actually desire and enjoy declaring the failures of others. If you folks would spend as much effort in the call to evangelize, you would have less time to criticize others. But then again, you must have an evangelical experience first.

"I get so sick of the typical pastor whine. they have no clue how insulated they are."

Why didn't you just say you are sick and tired of pastor's. That is what you really mean. Believe me, we are used to it. You are walking on dangerous ground by speaking so disrespectfully to God's men. But let me guess, you don't consider me God's man. I get it.

"You are too ignorant to be a pastor."

Pure Hate!!!! May God forgive you.

"You are actually saying that Jesus taught we should promote the tares and follow them as leaders. That is what YOUR scriptural analogy turns out to be concerning Caner! That is what you, in effect, are teaching!"

This is a non-sensical argument. That is actually not what I am saying. Jesus was teaching us to not waste our time attempting to determine what are tares and what are wheat because the only evidence is determined inside the produce, an area reserved for His examination. Of course, you seem to already have that figured out. I think I'll wait on God, thanks.

"You would have people following and learning from tares???"

Not a proper assessment of what I said, but then again, it doesn't fit in with your agenda.

"We are not to judge tares! I guess that means Ted Haggard and Matt Baker should get their pastor jobs back."

Are you saying these men aren't Christians? You do know that is what wheat and tares represent, don't you? These men failed, no doubt. I still pray for them, though. I pray I remain in a position where God can use me. We all have the propensity to fail. Including you.

"Sure, Romans is teaching we should ignore evil and lies in the Body. Sure, pastor. For too long, you have not been challenged for what you teach. And that is NOT good for you. Stick around, you might be convicted of the truth of the Word. I am praying for YOUR pew sitters!"

You are sadly misguided. I am challenged daily by the author. I am not perfect in my exegeis of scripture. Neither are you. I pray that God will guide me and teach me. I am not concerened with your "challenge", I am concerened with His!

I do not declare innocence or guilt, and you have no basis for that either. Do you pray for your pastor? Do you pray for Dr. Caner. Do you pray for Dr. Brunson? Have any of these men ever led anyone to Christ? Do you believe them to be false prophets? What, exactly, are your motives? I care not what you think of me. I do care, however, about your personal relationship with Christ. You sound angry! Your words are unholy banter. I don't know Caner, Brunson, or you, but through Christ, I love all and pray for all. God bless!

Anonymous said...

Amazing the venom spewed out from you folks.

"Oh puleeeese. Pastor, if you think you face demons everyday, go out and work in the REAL world every day."

Unfortunately, I and fellow pastors face the real world everyday in people like you. You actually desire and enjoy declaring the failures of others. If you folks would spend as much effort in the call to evangelize, you would have less time to criticize others. But then again, you must have an evangelical experience first.

"I get so sick of the typical pastor whine. they have no clue how insulated they are."

Why didn't you just say you are sick and tired of pastor's. That is what you really mean. Believe me, we are used to it. You are walking on dangerous ground by speaking so disrespectfully to God's men. But let me guess, you don't consider me God's man. I get it.

"You are too ignorant to be a pastor."

Pure Hate!!!! May God forgive you.

"You are actually saying that Jesus taught we should promote the tares and follow them as leaders. That is what YOUR scriptural analogy turns out to be concerning Caner! That is what you, in effect, are teaching!"

This is a non-sensical argument. That is actually not what I am saying. Jesus was teaching us to not waste our time attempting to determine what are tares and what are wheat because the only evidence is determined inside the produce, an area reserved for His examination. Of course, you seem to already have that figured out. I think I'll wait on God, thanks.

"You would have people following and learning from tares???"

Not a proper assessment of what I said, but then again, it doesn't fit in with your agenda.

"We are not to judge tares! I guess that means Ted Haggard and Matt Baker should get their pastor jobs back."

Are you saying these men aren't Christians? You do know that is what wheat and tares represent, don't you? These men failed, no doubt. I still pray for them, though. I pray I remain in a position where God can use me. We all have the propensity to fail. Including you.

"Sure, Romans is teaching we should ignore evil and lies in the Body. Sure, pastor. For too long, you have not been challenged for what you teach. And that is NOT good for you. Stick around, you might be convicted of the truth of the Word. I am praying for YOUR pew sitters!"

You are sadly misguided. I am challenged daily by the author. I am not perfect in my exegeis of scripture. Neither are you. I pray that God will guide me and teach me. I am not concerened with your "challenge", I am concerened with His!

I do not declare innocence or guilt, and you have no basis for that either. Do you pray for your pastor? Do you pray for Dr. Caner. Do you pray for Dr. Brunson? Have any of these men ever led anyone to Christ? Do you believe them to be false prophets? What, exactly, are your motives? I care not what you think of me. I do care, however, about your personal relationship with Christ. You sound angry! Your words are unholy banter. I don't know Caner, Brunson, or you, but through Christ, I love all and pray for all. God bless!

Anonymous said...

"Oh puleeeese. Pastor, if you think you face demons everyday, go out and work in the REAL world every day."

Unfortunately, the demons we face mask themselves to be Christians. I know all to well the "real world". Until you have faced the difficulties of pastoring, please try not to judge whether difficulties exist. Believe me, Satan is placing demons in the path of the called men of God. You sound angry. Do you love and pray for your pastor, or do you consider it your responsibility to manage him?

"I get so sick of the typical pastor whine. they have no clue how insulated they are."

Do you really mean you are "sick and tired of pastors"? Just wondering?

"But of course, it is OK for you to judge them because you are "paid" to do so. Right? You get a free pass on judging because of your title.
"You are too ignorant to be a pastor. You are actually saying that Jesus taught we should promote the tares and follow them as leaders. That is what YOUR scriptural analogy turns out to be concerning Caner! That is what you, in effect, are teaching!"

First of all, you really need to be careful how you speak to and how you treat God's man! Just a little warning. And, no, I am not just talking about myself, although I am included in that, whether you think so or not. You are not the one who called me and you certainly will not stop me.

Secondly, the wrong interpretation of that scripture is being perpetuated by you. What Jesus is saying is that it is not for us to determine who fall into the category of wheat or tare. The only way to tell the difference is through internal examination, and neither you, nor I, have the capability to do that. The Holy Spirit is really good at that, so I'll just leave that to Him. By the way, are you insisting Caner to be lost. If you are placing him in the "tares" category, you do know that means lost, don't you? I am really concerend about this. On the one hand, if you do not understand the concept of wheat and tares, you really shouldn't be commenting about them. On the other hand, if you do understand the concept, you have just inserted yourself in the role of the Holy Spirit. Which ever is true, it is very disturbing!!

"Do you not see what a perversion of the Word that is? You are sick for even suggesting such a thing. You would have people following and learning from tares???

I do see the perversion in your interpretation. I am not in the position to determine who are considered wheat and who are considered tares, and niether are you, Tom, or Mrs. Kaufman. Again, are you making the determination that Ergun Caner does not know Christ?


"As YOU are "judging" Tom and Debbie in YOUR comment! How rich!!!
What a hypocrite!"

I am not placing a "wheat vs. tares" judgement on them as all of you are on EC or MB for that matter. The word of God is judging their hateful speach. I have no clue whether they are wheat or tare. I do know, however, the hate they spew is not of Christ. Call that judging if you want. Very sad!


"First of all, Caner does not have 'dark secrets'. His lies are all over the place and very public over a 9 year period."

Uh, yes he does, and so do you. How would you feel if all of your lies were in public? I don't know whether he has told lies or not. Do you believe anyone has come to a relationship with Christ through Caner's ministry? I am inclined to believe there have been. I pray there will be in the future, for I pray for him, for whatever restoration needs to take place, and for his ministry. I pray for you, too. You sure do seem to hate me. Just sayin'. You might like me if you knew me. Probably not.

Anonymous said...

cont....

"Secondly, Tom and Debbie are not paid professional Christians who teach and live off followers money. If they were, then we should scrutinize every word they say...as Bereans."

Really bad analogy. Are you saying it is not incumbent upon all Christians to be truthful? Aren't we all held to that standard? Not certain about the "Berean" analogy. Are you talking about the Biblical Bereans, or are you talking about the Berean movement in the 18th century.

"But of course, it is OK for you to judge them because you are "paid" to do so. Right? You get a free pass on judging because of your title.

Again with the disdain for the called men of God. Very disconcerting. Sounds like you have an axe to grind.

"Because as we are seeing on blogs, most pastors interpret the Word to their benefit as we have seen you do in your comment. No wonder there is a famine in the land of knowing the Word! The pastors are either ignorant or twisting the Word to their own benefit.

We are not to judge tares! I guess that means Ted Haggard and Matt Baker should get their pastor jobs back."

Do you consider Ted Haggard and Matt Baker lost? If so, when did God give you the ability to see their heart? Have they done wrong? Absolutely. Will God hold them accountable? By the Word of God, Yes! Are you in the position to make eternal judgements. I hate to burst your super-spiritual bubble, but nope!

"Sure, Romans is teaching we should ignore evil and lies in the Body. Sure, pastor. For too long, you have not been challenged for what you teach. And that is NOT good for you. Stick around, you might be convicted of the truth of the Word. I am praying for YOUR pew sitters!"

Do you really think that is what Romans is teaching, or are you being sarcastic? Not sure. Just to clarify, Romans 14-15 teaches us not to "tear" each other apart, but to pray and help one another. If our brothers or sisters fall, pick them up, don't step on them. It teaches us not to get caught up in "non-eternal" issues in the church, but to know that the ground is even at the foot of the cross, and all people that come to Him, whether Jew or Gentile, have access to all His Glory! This blog is dedicated to the destruction of God's people, not the edification. This is scary and unbiblical, for we all could have a blog for the purposes of our failures. I pray no one ever hates me that much, and I pray for those that must suffer because of this Satanic device. This blog is just a firey dart in Satan's arsenal. Thank God for His armor!

As for the personal attacks on me, I am ok with that. If Jesus was persecuted, who am I to think I am above it. And it comes from the same Pharisetical people. I am scrutinized every time God allows me to stand for Him. I am scrutinized by Him. I wished it were just you, because, with all do respect, your wisdom is filth in the sight of God. Scrutiny by the author is always more compelling. I pray for His wisdom. May God forgive the hate in this site, and may He bless all ministries represented for His glory.

Fredericka said...

Anonymous, "I don't know whether he has told lies or not."

Anonymous, if you really can't be bothered to take the time to look into this very well-documented matter, then why are you expressing an opinion?

Michael said...

Great blog. It's sad, but it's all about the $$$$$$$$$. You have to understand, the "heavyweights" in the Christian faith have mortgages, credit cards, wives, teens, car payments they have to pay for! Ergun is no exception. I'm a Senior at Liberty (Distance) and I had to take a really stupid course advertised as "Philosophy 101" and it turned out to be nothing more than a somewhat aplogetics class using Caner's book and video of Caner himself...my only concern was that they were going to invalidate the credit because of this bozo. Yes Sir! The Faith is chock full'o pediphiles, crooks, liars, "lovers of men" (in the strictest sense...i.e, homos)and every kind of malcontent and workers of iniquity (I was so angry about how you were treated by the "Mac" at FBC) that no wonder Islam is making such headway! Keep up the good work.

The Other Tom said...

To "Pastor"

I'm not going to go line by line through the drivel you just posted. But I will address one portion of it. You stated:

"First of all, you really need to be careful how you speak to and how you treat God's man!"

How dare you, sir!! How DARE you tell a Christian believer that you are "God's man" therefore we poor, common laypeople better shut up and listen to each and every word that oozes out of your mouth.

Sir, you can take your clericalism, and STICK IT. I grew up in the Roman Church. I would not submit to its clerical tyranny, and I CERTAINLY am not going to sit still and accept it from a two-bit Baptist hack such as yourself.

Each and every Christian is "God's man (or woman)." If you cannot accept that basic Biblical teaching, then go become a Papist, because you certainly share their spirit.

Anonymous said...

"First of all, you really need to be careful how you speak to and how you treat God's man! Just a little warning. And, no, I am not just talking about myself, although I am included in that, whether you think so or not."

U Can't Touch This

Anonymous said...

"Again with the disdain for the called men of God. Very disconcerting. Sounds like you have an axe to grind."

Pastor, your comment only makes you look even more ignorant of the Word. All believers are "called of God". There are no professional Christians or specially anointed. We are a holy priesthood. You have bought into the lie that there is a "special Christian class" of people with man conferred titles.

but then, that is how you make your living, isn't it.

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous, if you really can't be bothered to take the time to look into this very well-documented matter, then why are you expressing an opinion?"

One need not know the specific details to know that it is not Christian character to enjoy to failures of another. If people would bother to actually read my post without trumpeting their own agenda, they would realize that I am not defending anyone. I am simply begging by the mercies of God that the people of God stop acting like people of the world.

"Pastor, your comment only makes you look even more ignorant of the Word. All believers are "called of God". There are no professional Christians or specially anointed. We are a holy priesthood. You have bought into the lie that there is a "special Christian class" of people with man conferred titles.

but then, that is how you make your living, isn't it."

Sad. Of course all believers are called of God. But within the body of believers are those Christ called to certain responsibilities. If I am ignorant when it comes to this truth, then I guess Paul was too. Ephesians 4:11-16 (KJV) - 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Why do people have to be so hateful. When Jesus sorrowfully looked at the multitudes of people and told His disciples "the harvest is plentiful..." I am certain among them were some of "the religious crowd". Jesus said to the disciples to Pray the Lord of the harvest send laborers. Many of you that consider yourself a laborer do so based on your own merit. In reality you are just part of the harvest. I pray you find the joy and peace that is in Christ. When you do, it will no longer excite you to see someone fall. I am not judging, Jesus is. He said His sheep know His voice and a stranger they will not follow. The voice of Christ is never heard amongst the laughter directed at the fallen, yet can be heard throughout all of Heaven saying "I forgive" to the repentant.

Anonymous said...

O"f course all believers are called of God. But within the body of believers are those Christ called to certain responsibilities. If I am ignorant when it comes to this truth, then I guess Paul was too."

So typical! Claim ONLY YOU can undestand the correct interpretation. Eph 4 is the ONLY place the word "pastor" is mentioned. So, I guess you think you are ONLY a shepherd and of course NOT a sheep, right?

So, tell me, why aren't ALL the Epistles written to the all important pastors and elders? Why write them to the WHOLE chuch? Why let the ignorant nobodies in the Body have responsiblity for carrying out the counsel in the letters? Hmmmm?

Tell me, who is the pastor of the church at Philippi? Corinth? If it such an important God called postion of authority and responsbility, you would think we would have heard about each one in each Epistle. Interesting, huh?

Truth is, what Eph 4 is talking about are functions. Equal in the Body. The "elder" can be recognized as looking the most like Matt 5. Lowly servant to others. Seasoned and mature believer. NOT living off the believers. Paul said he GAVE and did not take but from one church.

You have made your living so long in your bubble, you have no clue and cannot think outside the man made institution.

You don't even know scripture well enough to teach it. Your comments are shallow, pedantic and prove you interpret the Bible to YOUR advantage. Note how you accuse folks here of judging YET, you do the exact same thing!

And you accuse folks of delighting in Caner's failures. So, now you read minds and hearts.

You are typical of the spiritually dead. You are a hypocrite. Hopefully your pew sitters will wise up and study on their own.

Anonymous said...

"You are typical of the spiritually dead. You are a hypocrite. Hopefully your pew sitters will wise up and study on their own."

You are a very bitter, angry, and hateful person. You hate preachers. It is obvious that someone in such a position has hurt you in the past, so now you are trying to eisigete scripture to remove that calling all together. Jesus Christ would never speak with the hate you speak with. You, my friend, do not discern scripture. You may be able to quote it but you lack the ability to interpret. It is not "what it means to you", it is what it says. Simple hermeneutics. I really do not care what you think of me. I do, however, care about you and your eternal state. Just waiting to see a little bit of Christ in your statements. So far you are batting 0.

Pastor Keith Arp said...

I Timothy 5:17 - Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

I Thessalonians 5:12-13 – And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Hebrews 13:7 – Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

I know that there are other pastor's that read this blog. I pray for you and pray that God will strengthen you and the ministry He has placed you in. May God bless.

Lynn said...

Someone said big deal preachers are like salesmen. That's a great description. They're good at selling the product (entertainment), so they get very popular and make good money and bring in a lot of money for the business (the church.)

I find blogs like this fascinating. You get to have a back and forth between real people. It's not like at church, where the pastor gets to do all the talking. Plus as everybody knows, no one, including the pastor, can be their real selves at church. Church is the last place you'd dare to be your real self. Must keep up appearances.

So I think blogs jive a lot better with reality.

Anonymous said...

I have never seen so much hatred in one place.
Dr. Caner has A.P.O.L.O.G.I.Z.E.D for whatever "misspeakings" this entire fiasco was created about. Why are you all beating a DEAD HORSE?

Craig D. is a dear friend of mine as well Dr. Caner's. We are all defending our Friend and his family from the viciousness of "believers like you". I was always taught that Christians are to "love one another"...thats what MY BIBLE says. My Bible says to "forgive seventy times seven", just as YOU are forgiven by Your Heavenly Father. What makes YOU judge and jury? I'm not God, dont wanna BE God and aint gonna try and take His place. The Caners have been through the ringer with this drivel. Their sons are feeling the pain as well.
Forgive, move onward and upward. It's over. Let it go.
Oh, and I'm not ashamed or afraid to post my name as well.
I'm Happycappeys. Proud Friend of The Caner family and Craig D. LU Grad, Class of 93. TRBC church member....anything else?

Larry Geiger said...

Dude! You live in Jax and you have a basement? Very cool. Just, please don't eat Cheetos.

Hang in there and sorry about that lawsuit thing. Pitiful.