Speaking truth, and speaking truth in jest.
This is an answer to prayer. Thank you Lord for hearing our prayers. My next prayer is.....I just hope that Brewton-Parker College can undo the damage that he has done. He may have only been here a year; but, a lot of damage can be done in a year's time.
The resignation letter reads like the man just wasn't into it anymore.Sounds like he is still dealing with his son's death...and at this point, I pray for him and the family.
To The Govteach:You also need to pray that he stays out of religious institutions. You have no idea what really happened down here and how many people were hurt in the process. Don't take everything you read at face value.
The man states he has been broken by the death of his son and I am sure the death of a child would break each of us as well. I could not imagine losing any of my children, let alone by their own doing.Instead of passing judgement and criticizing him, lets all pray for him and his family and ask God for healing and movement in Caner's life. Yes he has done wrong and been really cruel and harsh at times, but as Christians we are to forgive and move past the past mistakes.Time will tell if he is sincere in his statement and if he is not, God will deal with the situation in His own time.
Anonymous on 1/20/15 at 8:11 pm said:"Instead of passing judgment and criticizing him, lets all pray for him and his family and ask God for healing and movement in Caner's life. Yes he has done wrong and been really cruel and harsh at times, but as Christians we are to forgive and move past the past mistakes."------------------------------------My Response.BUT, this needs to be said: 1. Even though we need to pray for him, the Baptist leadership doesn't need to appoint him into a leadership position anywhere and anytime soon. 2. He has negatively affected people's livelihood at BPC due to his rash decisions and refusal to communicate. People have had to relocate and find other jobs because of his actions - very unnecessary actions. 3. Students have left the school because of him.4. The school grounds look terrible, the worst we have ever seen. The steeple fell off of the little church chapel and the grass grew up and the campus has trash running over the dumpsters. The back of the campus looks deserted. He did NOTHING to preserve the beauty of the campus. But, he's had time to jet here, there and everywhere. 5. He has basically made a huge salary while traveling all over the country, while the school continues to deteriorate physically, educationally and spiritually. 6. It's easy to just accept everything that we are told in a news release. Life is easier when we just accept what we are told, but that doesn't mean the whole truth has been told. There's more to this story. People are only being told what sounds good. The school doesn't need anymore bad press. 7. The administration page on the BPC website was NEVER completed during his time at BPC. If you looked on the administration page to see the names of the leadership, it was not there. 8. Galatians 6:7"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."We either believe the Bible or we don't. 9. While most people have to learn to deal with the tragedies, trials and tribulations of life. .....While they mourn a death, struggle through the loss of a job, endure sickness or deal with family problems, most people will do this quietly, under the radar and in earnest prayer. Others learn the art of cashing their trials and tribulations.10. While we're praying, we need to pray in earnest for more Godly leadership in the Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal and Interdenominational leadership chain. Yes, people can make mistakes, but when you sign up to serve God and preach the Gospel, you're held to a different standard, a standard of righteousness. We can't continue to make endless excuses for people, especially when they have the capacity to affect a lot of lives.
This sounds like the voice of experience.Anonymous Jan 20 at 8:11 said: "Yes he (Caner) has...been really cruel and harsh at times..." While what, naming the name of Jesus at every turn? "Really cruel and harsh." Sounds like an abusive person. Perfect kind of person to have as a President of a Christian school. Great influence and role model. So, tell me, when does forgiveness and prayer become an excuse that does little more than enable an abusive person to continue their abusive ways? "Really cruel." That is not the job description of a president of a Christian school. "...cruel..." He needs a "movement of God" alright.
It is truly stated that the students, faculty and any lay people in the church the Caner family attended, WILL be changed directly because of Mr. Caner's lies and deceit. How do I know this? Bear with me as I endeavor to put a lifetime into a few sentences. Why did it take this horrific tragedy to bend Mr. Caner's knee?Only God knows the one true reason Braxton chose to take his life. However, at his age,in my opinion, he had to have known the indiscretions in his father's years of tall tales. The lavish lifestyle was apparent and mentally noted as the years of innocent childhood passed. The lack of time spent between his parents and as a family became a silent torture. I could almost guarantee this is exactly what he was feeling. How do I know? I was reared in a fundy pastor's home wrought with similar situations, though not as publicly known as Mr. Caner. From the pulpit, my dad "played up" his lack of a biological father in his life, name dropped, let folks know what he wanted (expected) for his birthdays, and on and on I could go! Our family was always on the back burner, if even near the stove. When I was 11 (the eldest of 3 kids at the time) my dad was asked to resign a church and the next day both were taken away in ambulances. Years later I was told it was psychiatric reason . We moved 3 times that next 12 months. I had no idea at the time what had happened, but I knew men having meetings at church wasn't ever good because my mom would always cry. This all played out again at the next church, but now I was 13 and I silently began questioning certain things. You just know what not to say. Anger wasn't pretty in our Christian home! When I was 19, married, expecting, and now the eldest of 5 children, my dad tried unsuccessfully to take his life. My precious husband is the one who found him. We found out later that he had been caught in several acts of financial indiscretion toward the church and some members. After this, my maternal grandmother confided in me that this was similar to what had happened in previous churches. I was always held up by my father as his golden child. I didn't "take to it" as some kids would; I despised it. My job was to play the piano, sing, organize, speak, etc. to make him look good in the eyes of the church folks, the community and especially other Fundy pastors of the state. This wasn't in words, but through the knowledge a child has of what true love does and doesn't mean, from others in your life. Did this double standard of living wreak havoc on my life (& my siblings') emotionally, spiritually and physically? Absolutely!! Yet, through God's grace and trust in His infallible Word, I can say I love the Lord with all of my being! With His strength and daily blessings I find power to go on! No, I never met Braxton. However, I can only imagine the pressure, whether spoken or implied, Braxton endured because of the choices his father repeatedly made. And each sentence was a choice. I feel Mr Caner speaks the truth in that he will never get over the circumstances of the death of his son. Why? Think of the leaders and friends over the years who MUST have spoken with him, perhaps encouraging him to recant his stories, lies, etc. and repent, but he refused. Such a senseless tragedy that, only through this child's life being taken by his own hand, Mr. Caner has finally reached a breaking point. P.S.I do hope and pray that Mrs. Caner and her other son are being surrounded by unconditional love. Church folks can be some awfully haughty people!
What everyone doesn't know it that statement was a save face...it was a force out. Caner was caught unknowingly by a student using the phrase "ni***r lover" the student who overheard was a black student. She placed a call into the NAACP....a number of students also protested this by turning their backs and walking out of chapel when Caner got up to speak....if you think his statement was really why he left then you need to re evaluate things. He was worthless....better for BPC without him.
I see a book in the future.
@ Anonymous on 1/20/15 at 8:11 pmI understand what you are saying. I know Caner in a more personal way than most and NO I DO NOT TRUST him.That being said, pray for this man. He lost a child and he is suffering and is being humble(?) enough to admit that he is broken. For years people have said that if he would come clean, repent, and change; he would be forgiven and left alone. This could be the beginning of that and we should at least give it some time and see where it goes.Does he need another leadership position in the ministry? Not as far as I am concerned, but God will make that decision and we will need to trust His judgement. We do not have to like Caner, but we definitely need to lift him up in prayer and love this man as we would want to be loved.
From: @ Anonymous on 1/20/15 at 8:11 pmI understand what you are saying. I know Caner in a more personal way than most and NO I DO NOT TRUST him.That being said, pray for this man. He lost a child and he is suffering and is being humble(?) enough to admit that he is broken. For years people have said that if he would come clean, repent, and change; he would be forgiven and left alone. This could be the beginning of that and we should at least give it some time and see where it goes.Does he need another leadership position in the ministry? Not as far as I am concerned, but God will make that decision and we will need to trust His judgement. We do not have to like Caner, but we definitely need to lift him up in prayer and love this man as we would want to be loved.-----------------------My response. Yes, I 100% agree with you that Caner needs prayer. As a matter of fact, we prayed for him today, and asked God to help him, especially with his inability to be honest and forthcoming. He truly needs a bonafide, genuine salvation experience with Jesus Christ. After all, if we consider ourselves evangelical, we need to recognize when someone truly needs God's help and the Holy Spirit's convicting power. Yes, he has had an awful and sad tragedy in his life. It is heartbreaking beyond belief. At the same time, he does not need to be placed in another position of authority. He honestly needs the time to grieve his loss. How can he be in a position of authority under a heavy burden like this......and especially when he has the capacity in a leadership position to negatively affect other people's lives. We must not forget that he has also caused other people to suffer. We know them personally and up close. It's easy to say, "Well, let's just pray for him, forgive and forget....(which we need to do.....") HOWEVER, when the shoe is on the other foot, it's easy to flippantly pray and forget the damage that was done to another's life. When you force someone out the door, especially people with a family, you affect their livelihood and ability to feed their children. Are other people's children not important, especially those who had sacrificed for BPC in the past? There were people forced to leave who had been HUGE assets to BPC. Do we forget about them and their trials & tribulations? It's not just the celebrity who is suffering.The modern Christian church wants to applaud their own "celebrities" and many times excuse them, even when there is obvious, glaring "in your face" wrongdoing. As bad as his tragedy was and still is, it does NOT excuse the damage that he has done.....and for this, he needs to get out of the public eye, off the radar, stay out of leadership positions and seek God wholeheartedly.
......not only has he forced people out the door.......not only has he allowed the campus to deteriorate unbelievably.......not only has he constantly been on tour for a year, going here there and everywhere, away from the office a lot.Why doesn't someone ask about the incident during chapel service when students were upset enough with him to stage a protest and walk out? Before everyone jumps to conclusions about what they believe to be the truth (or what's written in the news release), they need to learn why students at a Christian college staged a protest against the president.Remember, this man preaches in youth services.
@ Anonymous January 21, 2015 at 10:23 PM"Why doesn't someone ask about the incident during chapel service when students were upset enough with him to stage a protest and walk out?Before everyone jumps to conclusions about what they believe to be the truth (or what's written in the news release), they need to learn why students at a Christian college staged a protest against the president."----Do you know what happened? Is this something you could find out and report?
" when you sign up to serve God and preach the Gospel, you're held to a different standard, a standard of righteousness."Can someone explain what standard non preachers are to be held to since this comment seems to say that the standard for preachers is righteousness and the standard for others is different."Baptist leadership doesn't need to appoint him into a leadership position anywhere and anytime soon. "And if they do appoint him, isn't that the time to rise up and speak out. Not during the time he is dealing with the loss of his son."Students have left the school because of him"Were those students called to go to BP? If they were, why run from a man and not stand with your God? Nowhere in the Bible do we find living for Jesus to be easy or God will only places where we can be happy."He has basically made a huge salary while traveling all over the country, while the school continues to deteriorate physically, educationally and spiritually. "That is a trustee decision to allow, take it up with them. If they were mere puppets,then work to replace them with men of integrity."The administration page on the BPC website was NEVER completed during his time at BPC. If you looked on the administration page to see the names of the leadership, it was not there."The sky is falling... the sky is falling... the school web page is not complete. Get the tar and feathers." While most people have to learn to deal with the tragedies, trials and tribulations of life. .....While they mourn a death, struggle through the loss of a job, endure sickness or deal with family problems, most people will do this quietly, under the radar and in earnest prayer. Others learn the art of cashing their trials and tribulations."I do not know how he could have resigned without it becoming news...Neither do you. Please do tell us where he is cashing in on this resignation." He truly needs a bonafide, genuine salvation experience with Jesus Christ."His decade of lies are more attractive than the venom you are spewing. Neither are acceptable to God but yours are filled with extreme hatred.I would not dare judge your salvation because of your spewing venom. As a Christian sibling, I would ask that you learn to love EC the way God loved and loves you, in spite of you. And please do not try and say your words are typed in love.Lastly, the church of God in any age is to be a forgiving people. Something you are missing.
To John L. Estes on 1/22 at 2:53 am:....and posts like yours are the reason that today's modern "Christian" celebrities continue to get away with their shenanigans over and over again. ***Telling the truth is called spewing venom. So, when Jesus called them "wolves in sheep's clothing" or false prophets, would you say that He was spewing venom? ***Having a standard of righteousness is called judgment. (You may want to consult with the Apostle Paul on this one) This is how most modern pastors today stop the congregation from questioning the necessity of building a multi-gazillion dollar church building, placing the church body in tremendous debt. He calls them troublemakers and murmurers. I've personally seen this rodeo before. It's nothing new. Sir, with all due respect, you obviously don't live near Brewton-Parker College. You obviously don't know the entire story nor have you talked to the students, leadership and the people forced out of their jobs. Before you rush to defend/support him, you may want to hear the entire story. So, would you say that the following passage in the Bible is spewing venom?? This is HIS WORD, not mine.2 Peter 2: 20 - 22 (Actually, the entire 2nd chapter needs to be read)20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Welcome to the weird, wild and wacky world of Jon L. Estes. Where confronting a pastor about unrepentant sin (condoned in scripture and practiced by Jesus) is hatred (judging a stranger's motivation -not condoned by scripture), but lying from the pulpit to impressionable youth and adults alike is flippantly dismissed.Self-serving pastors like Jon L. Estes are a big part of why the world looks at Christians with disdain.
I'd like to interview the person who left the comments about the grounds and students staging protests.Would anyone be willing to speak with me on the matter?
"....and posts like yours are the reason that today's modern "Christian" celebrities continue to get away with their shenanigans over and over again."Since this post is about the resignation of EC and in his resignation he spoke of the huge burden of the death of his son, your personal attacks at this time are very unChrist like."***Telling the truth is called spewing venom."Truth? You proclaim that EC is lost. You know this for sure... how? This accusation causes you to lose all credibility. Sir, you are not God."So, when Jesus called them "wolves in sheep's clothing" or false prophets, would you say that He was spewing venom?"Sir, you are not Jesus. At times like this you need to follow the advice of Job 13:5."***Having a standard of righteousness is called judgment.£Having a heart of Grace and Mercy is called Christlike. The problem is not that your opinion on these things do not matter, the problem is that you do not demonstrate Grace and Mercy in your vile comments."(You may want to consult with the Apostle Paul on this one)"Sir, you could learn something from Paul also. Truth without grace is sinful."This is how most modern pastors today stop the congregation from questioning the necessity of building a multi-gazillion dollar church building, placing the church body in tremendous debt. He calls them troublemakers and murmurers. I've personally seen this rodeo before. It's nothing new."Who in this thread stream is doing this? You are not even following the subject line or responding to those who post. It seems you have been hurt and for that I am sorry but to live to hurt others is not the way Paul or |Christ would have done it."Sir, with all due respect, you obviously don't live near Brewton-Parker College. You obviously don't know the entire story nor have you talked to the students, leadership and the people forced out of their jobs."Geographic location is not an excuse to spew venom. Pain is not a reason to spew venom. EC will answer for his life, as will I and sir, so will you."Before you rush to defend/support him, you may want to hear the entire story."Where did I defend EC? I spoke to you about your comments. I believe you can read better than you are demonstrating.I admit I used the term "sir" towards you and I do not know what gender you are. So if I got that wrong, it is clearly because you hide yourself behind a cloak of secrecy. It is easy to lob insults when hiding in the dark. You do know Jesus came to set you free from the dark. Maybe you do not know the Paul you speak of. He never hid from the message he spoke. Then again, that may be the whole problem. You need to hide.Living in the light... Jon (without the "H".
4 1/2 years ago the fraud came to light. But he was defiant. So was Liberty, at first. I created parody videos to try to bring attention to the problem, after so many powerful Baptists clearly showed their intent to discredit whistleblowers. I couldn't believe that Christian men, leaders, would sweep this scandal under the rug in the face of a mountain of evidence. It is shameful. Eventually, after the evidence became so overwhelming, and secular media began picking up the story, Caner was quietly transferred to TX. Then to GA. All the while, claiming that all the video evidence was edited to frame him, and that he never intentionally misled anyone. That is a direct quote. By the time he was at Brewton Parker, I could sense he and his defenders had begun to take on something different. Perhaps their denials had turned into true self deception. Whatever it was, their defiance just seemed to be getting darker. When I heard the news about Caner's son, I stopped tweeting as Sixty Debates, stopped promoting the Smooth Running Machines song, and I moved the parody videos to private. I did this out of respect for a family's loss. I did not do it because I felt that the people pointing out Caner built his entire career on lying to Christians were the ones responsible. No, we are not. When James White debates Muslims, and they laugh about Ergun Caner's fraud, Dr White has to endure that, and then try to convince them that not all Christians are like that, and that he too has condemned Caner's lies. Only after all of that can he get to meaningful dialogue and debate. Do I really need to go on and on with other examples of why we need to rebuke sin? We have a Christian duty to do so.Here we are today. He's resigning from his position at BP. Carrying back to TX a sick and heavy heart. If you love him, pray for him. But consider this: God is not mocked. If the people saying Caner has been lying and defiant in the face of calls for repentance for the last 4 years are telling the truth, and they are, then your prayers should be for his repentance just as much as his healing.These defenders like Jon Estes above, are not loving Caner well. It's sad.Hating the doctor for telling you that your wife has cancer will not help your wife beat the cancer. -Sixty Debates
I can understand why people are fleeing the church in record numbers after reading the comments of Pastor Jon L. Estes. Self-serving, hypocritical, arrogant. Twisting scripture to suit his own purposes at the expense of truth.It's been 500 years since the last reformation. Looks like it's time for a new one.The last sentence in his comments was appropriately ironic.2 Corinthians 11:14"But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."
Jon L. Estes accuses a complete stranger of hate because he dares tell the truth about man who gained fame and fortune by fabrication.The he writes these loving words:"I admit I used the term "sir" towards you and I do not know what gender you are. So if I got that wrong, it is clearly because you hide yourself behind a cloak of secrecy. It is easy to lob insults when hiding in the dark. You do know Jesus came to set you free from the dark. Maybe you do not know the Paul you speak of. He never hid from the message he spoke. Then again, that may be the whole problem. You need to hide."It's called projecting.
To Jon L Estes:I will not address your commentary anymore. We are on opposite sides of the argument. You will only see what you want to see and many of us know the truth. That's why people like Caner continue to "get away with" their unprofessional behavior, years of proven lies, firings and social media foolishness. Yes, what happened to him last year is a tragedy beyond tragedies, but it does not excuse what he continues to do in his professional life. It does not excuse the fact that he has hurt people and continues to wreak havoc within the SBC. Yes, we forgive him. God forgives, the Bible teaches forgiveness; and, if we pattern our lives after Jesus Christ, we must forgive others.However, our forgiveness and even God's forgiveness will not excuse us from the consequences of our bad decisions. You reap what you sow. ------To Sixty Debates:Thank you. ------To G. Seth Dunn: (If these links are not hot links, then you may need to copy & paste into your web browser)Here are pictures of the Sara Wilson Tyre Chapel (by a Fine Art photographer online) before neglect set in, the steeple fell off and the weeds grew up around it. It was a very quaint little chapel. Driving by the campus on Highway 280, they mow the grass and trim the hedges, but past the front curb appeal, it goes downhill rather fast. Before Photo: http://fineartamerica.com/art/all/sara+wilson+tyre+chapel/canvas+printsAfter Photo:Here is how the chapel looks now, unless the grass has been mowed and the steeple fixed in the last 48 hours. http://imgur.com/NrcYK9VBefore Photos:The Historic Village at Brewton-Parker (some history). This was located next to old growth trees. http://www.bpc.edu/socscience/historic_village.htmlhttp://www.bpc.edu/socscience/historic_village_02.htmAfter Photo:This is what the log cabin in the Historic Village looks like where the old growth trees were cut down (and no one has cleaned it up).http://imgur.com/YPfQkHs
For pure laughs, go over to Peter Lumpkins' blog and read his recent post on this analogizing Ergun Caner's leaving BP after "saving" it to Elijah's running from Jezebel after beating the prophets of Baal. I just hope for the sake of the good honest people who are for whatever reason invested in this school that whoever replaces Caner will have the decency and good sense to send Lumpkins packing along with Caner.
Watchdog,Do you think you need to add a new category of Party Crasher to pair with Troll? How about Poacher?Poacher: Bloggers in the Estes category with low to no traffic seek boost in readership.
When you read Lumpkins' piece you get the feeling that he's doing all he can to keep anger at Caner buried. Because Caner probably just cost him his gravy train job - being paid by Georgia Baptist tithers to do nothing except piss people off on the internet.
Many things can be laid at Dr. Caner's door but the deforestation of the Historic Village was my fault. As curator of the village, I had the trees removed as I was afraid the old buildings were at risk, and I hoped to lighten up the area for visitors. I thought the village would be cleaned up over the summer, but I had decided by then to leave the school. I still think that with proper care the area once again look great, but I realize that the maintenance department probably does not have funding or people to do the work as yet. So, brickbats thrown regarding the village should come my way.
I would like to add another link. After Caner arrived at BPC and the revolving door started, the BPC Administration page was NEVER updated. NEVER. Why would the leadership at BPC not have that information available online to students and parents?http://www.bpc.edu/administration/administration.htmHere is a another picture of Sara Wilson Tyre Chapel by the lake when the grass was cut & manicured. This was put up on BPC's Facebook page dated April 14, 2014. You can see that things have really changed since then. https://www.facebook.com/brewtonparker/photos/pb.17338138018.-2207520000.1422053799./10152129028218019/?type=3&theaterAgain, here is what happened later on in the year. Does anyone else find it significant that the steeple fell off of the chapel? I remember hearing about it for the first time and getting a really eery feeling. How many steeples fall off of chapels and churches, unless there's a bad storm or tornado?http://imgur.com/NrcYK9V Just ask what happened to most of the Maintenance Department at BPC. Why wouldn't you want your school to look the best it possibly can? Wouldn't you want a parent to feel good about sending their student to this school?
From: Anonymous at 5:44 pm on 1/23"Many things can be laid at Dr. Caner's door but the deforestation of the Historic Village was my fault. As curator of the village, I had the trees removed as I was afraid the old buildings were at risk, and I hoped to lighten up the area for visitors. I thought the village would be cleaned up over the summer, but I had decided by then to leave the school. I still think that with proper care the area once again look great, but I realize that the maintenance department probably does not have funding or people to do the work as yet. So, brickbats thrown regarding the village should come my way."---------------------------------My response:The understanding locally is that those old growth trees were cut for the money to pay down the debt at BPC. Only one person (the president), in concert with the trustees, would have the power to cut old growth pine on BPC's property, given the price of that product. Old growth pines bring A LOT of money.
As suggested by a previous poster, I checked Peter Lumpkins' Blog. What I learned, BPC has a backup to future SACS accreditation risks. It looks like they are seeking TRACS- Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools accreditation. They too provide access to student aid from the U.S. Department of Education. Odd place and way for BPC to make an announcement about accreditation efforts. You would think that information would be available on the BPC website, not on a private blog.
I am very curious about the student protest in chapel. Does anyone have further information on this? Reason?
"These defenders like Jon Estes above"Really? Is that the best you can do? In my comments I said nothing that defended EC's past. I did speak to the present weight of the loss of his son he is carrying and the vileness of those who can not even take a pause from driving nails into his hands.The saddest part of this piling on EC is that those who are doing it now do not even see the bitter spirit they are demonstrating to a world.It is easy to cry foul from the shadows. It is Christlike to speak to the man, not to others about the man.
"I can understand why people are fleeing the church in record numbers after reading the comments of Pastor Jon L. Estes."WOW! I confront the spirit of hate towards a man being displayed while he is dealing with the loss of his son and walking away from the job you didn't want him to have and I'm the one running people off? Weird thinking.Self-serving, hypocritical, arrogant. Twisting scripture to suit his own purposes at the expense of truth."It's been 500 years since the last reformation. Looks like it's time for a new one."One that comes from God will not come through people who hide in the shadows. "The last sentence in his comments was appropriately ironic.2 Corinthians 11:14"But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.""Now I am of Satan. I hear this accusation coming from a very dark place where the accuser hides his true identity.I'm scared. hahahaha
"Anonymous Dr. Jupiter aka Dr. J said...Watchdog,Do you think you need to add a new category of Party Crasher to pair with Troll? How about Poacher?Poacher: Bloggers in the Estes category with low to no traffic seek boost in readership."Tom, maybe your anonymous poster is right. Maybe people like me should be banned since your popular crowd cannot deal with any differing thought or approach in the conversation.I'm actually glad they post here, it makes me know how far some people will go to feel good about their opinions.
" Anonymous said...To Jon L Estes:I will not address your commentary anymore."That's fine but the truth is EC is a hurting man who lost a son to suicide and the last thing he needs right now (pile on later but let him work through this loss) is people who claim to be Christian calling him lost and then some.The Christ who saved me would not do what you are doing to EC.When Jesus dealt with the woman caught in adultery, he told her to go and sin no more. No where did he say go find all you sinned against and make it right... ease their conscience... What you want from EC may not be what God wants from him. Not a defense of EC but a statement to be more like Christ.
I have not commented on EC since the news of the death of his son. But I will say that, while I have sympathy for his loss, he has not confessed and sought forgiveness for the terrible lies he told over a long period of time. And so, while I have sympathy for him and his family, one has to hope that he comes to the point of understanding the terrible toll that his lies have brought about and his need to confess and seek forgiveness from the thousands to whom he has lied.
PART 1:I mentioned Jon Estes in passing, referring to him as a defender of Caner. To which he responded: "Really? Is that the best you can do?" Actually, no. You must have never seen my satire videos.My point was to provide a very brief summary of this whole tragedy from my point of view. I stated and summed up well documented facts, and I would take issue with you, Mr Estes, or anyone else characterizing my comment as "driving nails into Caner's hands". This is the kind of discernment I have witnessed for over 4 years from Caner's delusional defenders, so you'll just have to understand why I will continue to associate you with them. And as an aside, your comparison of the crucifixion of the Savior to comments about Caner's documented fraud is inappropriate at BEST. Who are all these people you are so upset with for "piling on" Caner? Who is doing that? Most folks in this thread are just discussing the future of Brewton Parker, and it sounds like a couple of them are very close to the situation. Telling your friend that you think your favorite sports team will do better with a change in the head coaching position is not necessarily piling on against the exiting coach. If people were slandering Ergun Caner, that would be completely different. Who is doing that? I certainly am not, and never have. Dave Miller of SBC Voices accused me of that on Twitter once. I challenged him to provide one single example of slander. He started following me, and after 3 days unfollowed me. He never had anything else to say. Hmm. Slander is wrong and I'd rebuke it myself. But when people are stating plain facts, and then someone like you hits the blogs to cry foul, you are most certainly defending. Defending someone can be honorable and heroic, but it can also be the absolute worst thing you can do. When, on Twitter, I linked to a lie infested videotaped sermon that Caner gave at Dr Frank Cox's North Metro Baptist Church - on their very own Vimeo channel, thereby destroying Caner's additional lie that all the videos of him were edited/ uploaded by mean Calvinists and Muslims - North Metro Baptist Church removed the entire video from their channel less than 4 hours after I linked to it. Is hiding the incriminatig video an honorable defense of a victim, or is it abetting fraud? How would you characterize that Mr. Estes? I contend those that love Caner should step back and be honest about the path he has chosen. What is he in need of the most? Really.
PART 2:As for all your criticism, Mr. Estes, about hiding our identities and being anonymous, ask Jason Smathers and John Autry about that. Caner sued them to hide the infamous Marine video. (Of course, he lost on both counts and now owes $60,000 in legal fees because it was clear he was suing to suppress the truth about his fraud and had no rights to do so.) Caner's Twitter page declares "Bullies and trolls, I fight back". (Although, it appears he has removed that sentence from Twitter since losing his lawsuits.) Not to mention his completely delusional supporters like Tim Guthrie and Peter Lumpkins, who WILL slander and twist anything to smear people telling the truth about Caner. Ask James White. So yeah, I'm anon. You remind us that when Jesus caught the woman in adultery, He told her to go and sin no more, and that He didn't require her to "go find all you sinned against and make it right". The problem you have here, is that for Caner's situation to be compared to the parable: the woman, after being discovered and rebuked, would then go around town declaring that she never committed adultry, that anyone who says she did is a frustrated person writing from their mother's basement, and bring lawsuits against anyone that shows proof she is lying about the adultery. I wonder how Jesus would have felt about her doing those things? Because this is what Ergun Caner has done and continues to do. Mr. Estes, pray for him, in ALL of the ways that he needs prayer, but stop pretending he isn't defiant to this day. That is not loving him well. And stop rebuking those that have been hurt by him, or are simply recalling the factual events of his self inflicted tragedy.
PART 3: Clarification to my last note lest anyone think I am referring specifically to the loss of Caner's son, I am not. I would never pretend to know the reasons behind his death. Only God truly knows. The tragedy I was referring to is all of the things that have gone on in the last 4 1/2 years- the loss of his position at LU, the loss of Christian integrity in the apologetics/Muslim community, the hardening of his heart/committment to his lies, the disappointing handling and reaction of dozens of Baptist leaders to this, the lawsuits against fellow Christians who did nothing wrong, and on and on. All of this is a tragedy.
"WOW! I confront the spirit of hate towards a man being displayed while he is dealing with the loss of his son and walking away from the job you didn't want him to have and I'm the one running people off? Weird thinking."WOW! nice spin job or nice try anyway. How did you come to the conclusion that it was a spirit of hate that caused people to follow Jesus' example of not excusing sin in the life of spiritual leaders?How did you come to the conclusion that I didn't want him to have the job since I have not stated my position on that issue?"It's been 500 years since the last reformation. Looks like it's time for a new one.""One that comes from God will not come through people who hide in the shadows."How did you come to this conclusion? Please state your scriptural reference."The last sentence in his comments was appropriately ironic.2 Corinthians 11:14"But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."""Now I am of Satan. I hear this accusation coming from a very dark place where the accuser hides his true identity."That's your interpretation Jon. I just quoted the verse. If that's the way you would like to apply it, that's your business.Giving your name hasn't helped you in rightly diving God's word Jon, so I'm not sure what that buys you.You have already admitted being wrong about the tithe on this blog after I corrected you. Perhaps you should remain anonymous and you might have a better chance at getting things right. Perhaps if you didn't have Jon L. Estes stamped on everything you write, it wouldn't take a week of debate before you admitted that I was right about the tithe and you were wrong."I'm scared. hahahaha"Speaking of weird.
To: Sixty Debates aka Dr Ergun Caner satire.I can appreciate your take on anonymous posters. Your approach prompted a couple of thoughts. Actually, they are opinions, just that and nothing more. It seems Jon Estes assumes that name and picture establishes credibility. In a public space such as this, they create visibility, not credibility. Which makes me wonder if John is hoping to catch a ride on the Ergun Caner Express. It also appears that Estes assumes he speaks as the resident authority at all times and in all places. Fact. Away from his congregation, who presumably accepts his authority, he is simply one more voice in the mix. It seems he hasn't figured out that he has no more authority here than any other person. We have done more than pray for Ergun Caner. We are letting sleeping dogs lie. As always, his gigs create one or more dramas to clean up. The BPC event was no different. P.S. The best I can tell, there is only one sheriff at FbcJaxWatchdog ….. that would be Watchdog. It’s his house.
", your comparison of the crucifixion of the Savior to comments about Caner's documented fraud is inappropriate at BEST."My thoughts were on the act of crucifying period. You brought the act of crucifying to a single event. The term being crucified has been used by many without the direct reference to Christ. But attempting to make me say something I did not say, helps your argument."If people were slandering Ergun Caner, that would be completely different. Who is doing that? I certainly am not, and never have"Are you reading the same blog comments I am. The direct implication of EC being lost is a slander, IMPO.As far as yo saying it is not you saying such. I would never know. You could be speaking under different names, and anonymous being one of the other ones. Secrecy does not lead to truth."I contend those that love Caner should step back and be honest about the path he has chosen. What is he in need of the most? Really."This whole post is about EC's resignation and in that resignation he speaks directly of how he is struggling with the death of his son. The comments of those who are anti EC's past behavior are not bringing anything new to the table... why not let the man have some time to deal with this and when he emerges back and begins doping whatever he does, then criticize, if applicable, his behaviors then."As for all your criticism, Mr. Estes, about hiding our identities and being anonymous, ask Jason Smathers and John Autry about that."So you fear someone / something other than God? I think I understand that. Maybe the cause you fight for really isn't worth it to you. I am serving Christ in a Muslim country (albeit probably the safest) but still ruled by Sharia law. And you are afraid of a lawsuit?"Mr. Estes, pray for him, in ALL of the ways that he needs prayer, but stop pretending he isn't defiant to this day."Where is his defiance in resigning BP? Where is his defiance in sharing the weight of burden he is carrying from the loss of his son? If anyone is being defiant, it is those who must continue the same mantra of demanding EC respond to his sin in the way they have determined and refusing to let things rest while he deals with this great loss, which I believe he would never wish upon you."It seems Jon Estes assumes that name and picture establishes credibility. In a public space such as this, they create visibility, not credibility. Which makes me wonder if John is hoping to catch a ride on the Ergun Caner Express. What ride does EC offer that I need? I am serving the Lord exactly where I am called to serve. Far from the safety and convenience of the US. My comments have nothing to do with wanting to do something better (as you must think), or be more recognized... I am completely satisfied and blessed and safe in the arms of Jesus here in the Middle East. It seems that you think I am still defending him. My whole purpose on here is to speak directly to you about your words. If I want to confront EC, I know where to find him. What I will not do is spread any words of disagreement with others to someone other than them. Something many refuse to consider.It also appears that Estes assumes he speaks as the resident authority at all times and in all places. Fact. Away from his congregation, who presumably accepts his authority, he is simply one more voice in the mix. It seems he hasn't figured out that he has no more authority here than any other person. "
"It also appears that Estes assumes he speaks as the resident authority at all times and in all places."Really? I share what is on my heart in relation to the words spoken here to the people speaking them and I am evoking some sort of authority?Is this your thinking because I am seeking to have EC left alone while he grieves and I confront the lack of compassion towards this time of loss in his life? Go back and read what I have said. Give him some time, then start piling on again, if you must."It seems he hasn't figured out that he has no more authority here than any other person. "Never thought I did but since you brought it up... neither do you or the other anonymous posters."The best I can tell, there is only one sheriff at FbcJaxWatchdog ….. that would be Watchdog. It’s his house. "I agree and when he says for me to move on, I will be glad to exit his house. It is my guess, he can take opposition of thought more than the others who bring comment.
Just to note, as there is no set stated protocols within blogs like these that designate how they confront Christians and attempt to address issues and also how they have attempted reconciliation then how do you attempt to be different from a mere gossip blog. And if poring salt in the wounds of someone's grief and loss is what you like to do go ahead and just "let us bite and devour each other" (sarcasm).... Being only one degrees from knowing the Caner family...contempt is posted for the mediocrity of such a post as this one dogs. Done with licking wounds and repenting as well... hope for the rest
Is Jon L. Estes a full time pastor?He sure has a lot of spare time to post comments on this blog. Where can I sign up for a job that provides that much free time?
"WOW! I confront the spirit of hate towards a man being displayed while he is dealing with the loss of his son and walking away from the job you didn't want him to have and I'm the one running people off? Weird thinking."WOW! nice spin job. Well a nice try anyway. So Jon how did you come to the conclusion that when people confronted Caner with unrepentant sin (as Christ did with the Pharisees) it was motivated by hate? Before answering keep in mind that Dog discontinued stories about Caner here after his son's suicide as a mercy toward his family.Also how did you know that I didn't want him to have the job since I have never stated my position on that issue?I understand that you believe that preachers are in a special class and I also understand that you misinterpret I Chronicles 16:22 to mean that no one is to ever justly criticize a pastor, but does that belief system come with some sort of special powers like mind-reading or discerning secret motivations?
Jon Estes does indeed seem to have a lot of time on his hands. :DI had not heard about EC's son taking his own life. I can't imagine the grief of losing one's child and even more so since it was by his own hand. I will pray for peace and comfort of this family. I'm glad EC has resigned his position and hope he does not seek another or be offered another position in a Christian institution. It is beyond refutation that he lied and by not admitting that, he continues to lie.If I was EC I would stand up like a man, a Christian man and admit my lies! I sat under his preaching at least several times. I am ashamed of him and embarrassed for his family. How can a person claim to be a Christian and yet continue to live a lie??? The Bible says we are known by our fruit! Can an orange tree produce plums?
It's been 500 years since the last reformation. Looks like it's time for a new one."One that comes from God will not come through people who hide in the shadows."How did you come to that conclusion? Please provide book, chapter and verse.I don't believe the Bible actually addresses the legal anonymity of blog posters, but it does have a lot to say about pride going before a fall.No matter how many wacky comments you leave here Jon, we are not going to follow you on over to your blog.Good effort though.I see where you are coming from.
"Now I am of Satan. I hear this accusation coming from a very dark place where the accuser hides his true identity."Jon - I just quoted the verse. If that's the interpretation you take from it, that's your business. But it is sort of ironic coming from the person that argued with me for a week about tithing, changed your position and then refused to admit that our discussion had anything to do with your enlightenment. Perhaps if you didn't include your name and picture with all of your comments, your pride would allow you to admit when you make mistakes.
"I'm scared. hahahaha"Speaking of weird!
Comment from the Jon L. Estes blog:Sound familiar?Personal question for Mr. Burleson: 1) Do you think your time is better spent writing sensationalist blogs or sharing the Gospel with those in need of it?2) Do you think your type of writing glorifies the Kingdom of God and presents Christianity in a better light or sets an example of infighting Baptists are stereotyped for?3) There are proper channels to raise such serious charges, is there some reason you do not go through those, but instead bring charges without talking to the one whom you are accusing first? (Matthew 18)Please be as bold in answering these honestly before the Lord as you were in accusing a brother in Christ.
"WOW! nice spin job. Well a nice try anyway. So Jon how did you come to the conclusion that when people confronted Caner with unrepentant sin (as Christ did with the Pharisees) it was motivated by hate? "So, when did you confront Caner?"Before answering keep in mind that Dog discontinued stories about Caner here after his son's suicide as a mercy toward his family"And Tom did the right thing. The resignation of EC from BP cannot be interpreted fully without bringing the death of his son.I do not believe Tom posted a quick link to the resignation with any desire to bring a negative discussion towards EC. He did not make comment so it seems he is just sharing some news, not an opportunity to be critical of the man at this time."I understand that you believe that preachers are in a special class and I also understand that you misinterpret I Chronicles 16:22 to mean that no one is to ever justly criticize a pastor, but does that belief system come with some sort of special powers like mind-reading or discerning secret motivations?"This might have been true a few years ago but I have done some deeper study on this passage and have a better grasp on who the anointed are and what it means by touch. In a different place and time when it can all be laid out, and if anyone really cares to know, maybe I will share. For now, the person you describe is not me."He sure has a lot of spare time to post comments on this blog."So tell me, how much time have I spent here? Was it on my day off, or when I wasn't working? Since I live in a time zone 9 hours different than EST have you taken that into account?"Where can I sign up for a job that provides that much free time?"I guess your free time is due to your age... to old or to young to work. As far as you doing what I do, I doubt you could or even would want to. We are learning to live with and love many different nationalities we interact with here in the Middle East so they can see Christ in us. I wish I could take you with me when we fly to Kolkata tomorrow @ 2 AM where we will be ministering to the locals and working with ladies who have been rescued from the trafficking trade.Yeah, I'm just a time wasting pastor because I comment in opposition to you a few time.I will not be posting here while I am traveling. Any of my FB friends can keep up with the journey. Try and not miss me.
"Comment from the Jon L. Estes blog:Sound familiar?"Can you provide a link for this. I looked it up and found this on Wade's blog by someone anonymous.
"So, when did you confront Caner?"Answer my question first."I do not believe Tom posted a quick link to the resignation with any desire to bring a negative discussion towards EC. He did not make comment so it seems he is just sharing some news, not an opportunity to be critical of the man at this time."How did you come to that conclusion considering the context of the entire blog history?"This might have been true a few years ago but I have done some deeper study on this passage and have a better grasp on who the anointed are and what it means by touch. In a different place and time when it can all be laid out, and if anyone really cares to know, maybe I will share. For now, the person you describe is not me."Yes, Jon I am well aware of your former (misguided) position on this issue. You and I debated this issue for several days on this very blog. The reason that you lost the debate and couldn't answer my questions is because your interpretation of that passage was not Biblical. It was self-serving. It's good to see that you have finally come to the correct interpretation. Unfortunately (exactly like the tithing debate we had here) you are not able to admit that my valid points had any effect on your change of position. Do we see a pattern forming here? Seems like a pride issue to me."So tell me, how much time have I spent here? Was it on my day off, or when I wasn't working? Since I live in a time zone 9 hours different than EST have you taken that into account?"I can't answer those questions Jon. Only you can. Since you made your statement so vague, it makes me wonder. But it doesn't seem like a prudent use of a pastor's time to me. Just an observation."I guess your free time is due to your age... to old or to young to work. As far as you doing what I do, I doubt you could or even would want to. We are learning to live with and love many different nationalities we interact with here in the Middle East so they can see Christ in us. I wish I could take you with me when we fly to Kolkata tomorrow @ 2 AM where we will be ministering to the locals and working with ladies who have been rescued from the trafficking trade."Jon you really ought to give up on trying to guess about things that you have no knowledge of. You are not very good at it. Why would you assume that I couldn't or wouldn't want to? That is a strange comment to make to someone that you know absolutely nothing about. "Yeah, I'm just a time wasting pastor because I comment in opposition to you a few time."That might have worked if I was new to the blog Jon.Months ago you debated me on this blog about tithes and valid criticism of a pastor. You left over 50 comments on one thread as I remember.Commenters accused you of trying to take over the blog. Well, perhaps it was not a waste of time after all since you changed your position to mine on both issues.You just didn't admit that our debate had any effect on you.Oh well, at least I know better.
This is an Off Topic comment but relevant to the role played by blogs to question elites : The Intercept [Glenn Greenwald] > THE PETULANT ENTITLEMENT SYNDROME OF JOURNALISTS
I'm not interested in squabbling with a "but you're not Jesus" antagonist. My only purpose in commenting on WD's blog was to reflect on the whole Caner saga, given the recent news.And Mr. Estes, I can't speak for anyone else, but I did contact him privately first. I was ignored. Johnathan Falwell also ignored me.What is important now, and is being missed by most people, is that Caner is NOT at the bottom yet, nor is the rest of his family. My comments about praying for his repentance just as much as his healing are spurred by compassion for the man. There is more to lose. Wake up people. Wake up friends of Caner. There are many issues in play here, and many things eating at Ergun Caner. Many. And they've been eating at him long before last summer. His real friends ought to be speaking truth to him, not patting him on the back. Not putting bandaides over cancer. There is a difference between "cracking" (fracturing under pressure), and being truly "broken" (contrition or humbleness before God). I see cracking. If you love Caner, and you have his ear, you should take him back to the beginning, and speak honestly about everything in his life. If you love him and his family, do it. I for one, don't want to hear any more bad news.
"So, when did you confront Caner?"Answer my question first.
"I do not believe Tom posted a quick link to the resignation with any desire to bring a negative discussion towards EC. He did not make comment so it seems he is just sharing some news, not an opportunity to be critical of the man at this time."How did you come to that conclusion taking into account the entire history of Caner stories on this blog?
"This might have been true a few years ago but I have done some deeper study on this passage and have a better grasp on who the anointed are and what it means by touch. In a different place and time when it can all be laid out, and if anyone really cares to know, maybe I will share. For now, the person you describe is not me."You're welcome. I'm the person you debated for days on this blog about this very subject. Good to see that I was able to convince you of the correct interpretation of that passage of scripture.Quite frankly the only way anyone would ever accept your previous interpretation would be from a self-serving need and by ignoring the context.
"So tell me, how much time have I spent here? Was it on my day off, or when I wasn't working? Since I live in a time zone 9 hours different than EST have you taken that into account?"So why are you asking me these questions when you already know the answers?Why are you being so intentionally vague? Is it to deflect and not respond to the original question?
"I guess your free time is due to your age... to old or to young to work. As far as you doing what I do, I doubt you could or even would want to. We are learning to live with and love many different nationalities we interact with here in the Middle East so they can see Christ in us. I wish I could take you with me when we fly to Kolkata tomorrow @ 2 AM where we will be ministering to the locals and working with ladies who have been rescued from the trafficking trade."Jon you really ought to give up on guessing ages and motivations of strangers. You are just not any good at it.You also have no idea what I am qualified and not qualified to do.If history is any indication, I am more qualified than you to interpret scripture since you have changed your interpretation for 2 passages of scripture that we have debated in the past (tithing/touch not mine anointed).
"Yeah, I'm just a time wasting pastor because I comment in opposition to you a few time."I recall a year or so ago that you left over 30 comments on one thread. The other commenters accused you of trying to take over the blog. Dog had to ask you to back off. Seems like there are better things you could be doing with your time.
"What is important now, and is being missed by most people, is that Caner is NOT at the bottom yet, nor is the rest of his family. "You are sure about this? How so?"My comments about praying for his repentance just as much as his healing are spurred by compassion for the man."And how is this compassion being seen? Not by repeating the sin, over and over."There is more to lose. Wake up people. Wake up friends of Caner."You seem very sure of yourself. When does the time come when you are ready to leave it to the Lord to handle?"There are many issues in play here, and many things eating at Ergun Caner. Many. And they've been eating at him long before last summer."You must be an insider or think God has given you insight to his heart so you can keep proclaiming the sins of others. I don't see that kind of ministry or calling in scripture."His real friends ought to be speaking truth to him, not patting him on the back. Not putting bandaides over cancer."If you know his friends, talk to them."There is a difference between "cracking" (fracturing under pressure), and being truly "broken" (contrition or humbleness before God). I see cracking."WOW! I guess you are free to your opinion but if you are wrong what good does talking about the man do in getting what you want? "If you love Caner, and you have his ear, you should take him back to the beginning, and speak honestly about everything in his life. If you love him and his family, do it. I for one, don't want to hear any more bad news."This is not about my love for Caner but my love for God and my complete trust in Him to settle this. I do not have any need to talk about him and if I can't talk to him (if I think I should), It will be completely between he, I and God. Not with the rest of the world who drools to see Caner pay, hurt, do some sort of repentive act that is acceptable to man. No thanks. BUT, I will be glad to talk to those about their actions, to their cyber face (like you) when they cross the line and begin gossiping instead of demonstrating grace.You talk of love is cheap.Gone... To many Bengalis to meet today to talk about eternal things, not things that simply nag me.Jon L. Estes
Mr. Estes, I'm satisfied to let readers come to their own conclusions about our exchange.
"I will not be posting here while I am traveling. Any of my FB friends can keep up with the journey. Try and not miss me."It's hard to miss you when you won't leave.
The sad, declining condition of Brewton-Parker College continues. I don't know what words can be used to describe the Board of Trustees of this college. It seems that wisdom is far, far from these people.http://www.southeastgeorgiatoday.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15651&Itemid=117
Well....Thank God.The truth has finally come (in public) out about the resignation of Ergun Caner. Like I said before, there was more to the story than what he is telling us. And again, someone else gets fired.http://www.southeastgeorgiatoday.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15651&Itemid=117
Please notify Brewton Parker's V.P. for Communications, Peter Lumpkins, that the previous president has been replaced by an interium president. While the BPC website reflects that change Peter Limpkins persists in featuring his chum, and now past president, to prospective students and others who seek information about BPC. Peter Lumpkins does not understand his job. A V.P. for Commuications represents the institution to it's constituents. Peter Lumpkins thinks his job is to lead a mutual admiration society for the one who is now the past president. Since BPC is in a firing mode, I see no reason not to dispatch Lumpkins for sheer incompetence. Unbelievable. Call BPC 1-912-583-2241. Listen to the recording tell you they are closed for Christmas Holidays. Will return January 5th. BPC is operating on auto pilot.
Not mentioned in Dr. Caner's resignation were alleged inappropriate racial remarks by Dr. Caner which were reported to a board of trustee's member by a college employee and two students.
Obviously, things have escalated, or deteriorated. Anonymous commenter above who made mention of the chapel walkout above it is important that the key people in all this be held accountable and chief among these are the BPC trustees, especially leadership. Georgia Baptists put $1m annually in this school and trustees should not be allowed to hide behind closed doors and prepared remarks. The school was a mess. It is a worse mess today.
Re: "School was a mess. It is a worse mess today." by Anonymous - January 30th at 2:55 pm-------I guess "messes" are in the eye of the beholder.According to Lumpkins on his website, Bucky Kennedy put it so succinctly during Tuesday's trustee meeting, "Ergun Caner left us better than he found us." Right now 'Ole Bucky ain't saying a mumbling word.
The picture is becoming C L E A R E R! It seems Ergun just couldn't control himself and actually resigned so he would not be terminated. Dr CB Scott was also terminated after the BPC Board presented him with a non-disclosure agreement which CB refused to sign, he behaved like a true Christian. It wasn’t CB who uttered racist remarks in front of the student body.Lumpkins will likely go down with the ship and anyone who crosses him will be the subject of his vitriol. Bottom line, Ergun has no place in the leadership in the body of Christ. He brings shame upon any organization he touches. Wake up Christians. Pray for EC, but don't keep giving him cart blanch to be who he is. He's a liar and it seems he never figures out that repentance is necessary. Romans 1 talks much about the reprobate. I hope that does not befall him.Jon Estes, It looks like you should stop lecturing other people and face the facts.
In addition to the attempted strong-arming of C.B. Scott; who, praise the Lord, stood for TRUTH and INTEGRITY..........there are also "rumors" (cough) (cough) & "eyebrow-raising" behaviors of EC that are known within the community. Let us not forget that the female part of his family never, ever moved to Mount Vernon. People in the community questioned this as well. From what we've been told by those who were in the vicinity when EC received the tragic news about his son, he showed no emotion, whatsoever. Anyone with one ounce of discernment would have known that something is wrong with Caner. With the latest attempt by the BPC trustees to buy C.B. Scott's silence with Georgia Baptist money, they have made themselves out to be frauds. Thank God there are still men left in the faith who will NOT accept bribes to cover a lie. Every BPC trustee, including the chairman, needs to step down immediately.
So it looks like he may have been asked to leave over racist comments? Really? I thought Bucky Kennedy said his racist comments were one of the reasons they hired him!
more information is leakinghttp://pulpitandpen.org
Peter Lumpkins seems to have disconnected his Twitter account. @SBC_TomorrowYou will find responses to his comments. But, his remarks are gone. Well, at least to view they are gone. Anything published on social media is little more than an algorithm away. Sorry Peter. Remember the old saying, “ You can run but you can’t hide.”I guess during times of search and discovery, it gets a little binding when a person spends as much time promoting his wife’s business as he does the institution that pays his salary. Those time stamped “tweets” could be a real problem.And, one tin solider fades away.
It is sad that the news of BP were not based on truth. I am angry. I just got news which was published at http://sbcvoices.com/sad-revelations-at-brewton-parker/on the 30th.My apologies to those I have spoken against on this topic. I hope you understand I was willing to give BP trustees the benefit of the doubt.My list of who can be trusted just got shorter.Shalom...
The most disgusting detail which has come out, to me, is Gary Campbell's telling Scott that "you have your family to think about" when offering the severance package conditional on signing a NDA. As to caner's alleged conduct, it's pretty much in line with how I would expect him to conduct himself, and I'm sure he's said far worse without getting caught. But holding the welfare of a mans family over his head, trying to coerce him into doing your nefarious bidding, that's about as low as you can go in my book. I realize these allegations are fairly new at this point and need further vetting, but it all rings true to me as just what the good ol boy SBC mafia down there in Gawgia would do. We need to make sure that Scott's family is adequately taken care of. I don't know if he needs help or not, but if he does then we need to offer it to him. Unlike the bpc trustees we need to offer him a no strings attached helping hand, not dangle a carrot in front of him and yank it (and his livelihood) away from him if he doesn't play ball.
Peter Lumpkins actually compared Ergun Caner to Elijah! http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2015/01/ergun-caner-steps-aside-as-president-a-man-of-god-runs-for-his-life.htmlAppalling!
Just read this post. http://sbcvoices.com/sad-revelations-at-brewton-parker/Sadly it is a common M.O. in SBC institutions, including mega churches. The person doing the greatest harm is given safe passage, while those who stand for and speak truth are labelled as malcontents, then fired as an attempt to short-circuit any exposure of facts.I've seen it firsthand and watched it become a predictable pattern. And I've lived it as well.The funny thing is, God sees and knows. The very God they preach and claim to worship is fully aware of their cover ups and euphemisms. When their works continually go unchecked by man, they must start believing that even God is on their side. But God is on the side of TRUTH. And one day all works will be judged on that basis.My hope is built on nothing less!
"My apologies to those I have spoken against on this topic. I hope you understand I was willing to give BP trustees the benefit of the doubt."Well, at least he's consistent.Who would have guessed that siding with a decade long unrepentant liar would turn out this way?
I've been saying it since day 1....Ergun Caner is a pathological liar and can't help himself. I'm not saying he can't be a Christian, or even a professor, but he does not belong in a leadership position. He probably got a severance package. The person I feel sorry for the most is his wife...certainly she knows by now that the facts are not adding up and her husband is the cause of his own problems. Pathological liars always play the blame game. Unfortunately Ergun has had a group of defenders helping him with this blame game so that it went on much longer than it should have.
C.B. Scott knew the kind of people he was working for, and he knew about Caner. He defended them and spoke against those of us pointing out the truth about his boss and employer. I'm sorry that he has been burned, but he was warned over and over. What a disgraceful little mafia they have down there.How is that autonomy working for you, southern Baptists?
What Gary Campbell did to C. B. Scott, wanting him to be willing to testify on Caner's behalf.....in the event of an assumed court case. That sounds a lot like perjury to me. C. B. Scott had a choice. Thank God he took the high road. But then again, when it comes to Caner and court cases, the record speaks for itself. By the way, the media down here is fully aware of the shenanigans at BPC. And folks, it's honestly worse than you know. And to the person who called the good 'ole boys down here mafia.....you're exactly right. They all cover for each other and many are involved in illegal activity.
Check out the news release on the bpc site about Gary Campbell's statement today:According to Mr. Campbell, prior to Dr. Caner’s resignation, four claims were received, three of which were mailed to most of the trustees while the other claim came directly to Mr. Campbell and one other trustee. The Executive Committee investigated these claims and met on multiple occasions regarding the claims. The Executive Committee worked to “respect all people involved and to use good business judgment in handling claims of this nature.” The four claims concerned 1) allegations that the former President made racially vulgar comments; 2) an allegation of a racial comment regarding a staff member; 3) an allegation regarding derogatory remarks about two staff members; and 4) an allegation of inappropriate behavior.Mr. Campbell stated the Executive Committee was unable to either “refute or authenticate” the first allegation since it came down to one person’s claim versus another’s denial. The committee authenticated the second allegation of a racial comment concerning a staff member, although Dr. Caner insisted he did not mean it in a negative or derogatory manner. The third allegation concerned derogatory comments Dr. Caner allegedly made about two staff members in the privacy of Dr. Caner’s home. According to Mr. Campbell, “while there was some credible evidence of these comments, we were not able to validate this conclusively.” Finally, when the fourth allegation was raised when interviewing Dr. Caner, Mr. Campbell said the former President stated that he, “No longer had the will or energy to fight” and “had made the decision to resign as President.” Dr. Caner then, “asked permission to make his resignation official at our upcoming Board meeting which was the next day.” Mr. Campbell reported, “At that point, we discontinued our investigation and Dr. Caner officially resigned the next day.”So, it looks to me like:Allegation 1: This is undoubtedly the allegation that he said to maintenance workers that the trustees had "n*gger f*cked" him. Translation: The workers he said it to confirmed that he said it, and Caner denied it. Caner lied through his teeth and said he didn't say this, because saying something like this, using the n-word coupled with a curse word to boot is likely to render Caner radioactive within the circles which still embrace him. So the only hope he has of salvaging his career is to vehemently deny this and hope that his followers are (still) gullible enough to believe him. NOTICE HOW THE PRESS RELEASE CAREFULLY AVOIDED TELLING US THAT THE PERSON WHO DENIED IT HAPPENED WAS CANER HIMSELF.Allegation 2: This is undoubtedly the allegation that he told his brother Emir that CB Scott acted like he was "half black." This is a vague enough comment that Caner could spin it to say he meant something innocuous by it. So that's why he admitted it. I'm sure he told them he actually meant it as a compliment.Allegation 3: Puzzling. What is the relevance of the conversation being "in the privacy of his own home"? Even if you're in your own home, a conversation you have there is the same as a conversation you have anywhere else. Anything you say is subject to being repeated or reported. Allegation 4: This may be the bombshell coming. Obviously they deliberately avoided telling us what the "inappropriate behavior" was. Surely this will come to light.
The boys at the pulpit and pen have been on this. I heard they gave the 4th piece of informArion but are vetting it. Wow
Has anyone in Baptist leadership ever suggested to Ergun Caner that he needs a psychiatric evaluation? Something is seriously wrong with that man.
Good for you, Jon.It's a Genesis 3 world. I've trust people wrongly, too.
Make known what the local media k owns to the P&P and it can be published there.The P&P is here to help.Kudos to the brave source who spoke up.
"Who would have guessed that siding with a decade long unrepentant liar would turn out this way?"WOW!!! I did not side with anyone... I gave the trustees the benefit of the doubt and was seeking for the sake of the story of his hurt due to the loss of EC's loss of his son, to back off for a while. My position was not that EC should stay or go or that he lied. It was due to the connection with his son's death... give him some time.Fault me for personally choosing to demonstrate mercy towards someone who has been the brunt of controversy for such a long time.It doesn't hurt to be kind, even when someone apologizes.
Wild guess....and this is totally a guess about inappropriate behavior. First thing to do when someone is being investigated in a position of authority is to check their computer....
Peter Lumpkins. Please! The BPC website landing page continues to be your recruiters' worst nightmare. "Presidential Search Committe" needs to be removed or restated to reflect current and correct information. According to the recent BPC news release, which you presumably wrote, Mr Gary Campbell is no longer the acting President nor the Chairman of the Board. http://bpc.edu/news_and_info/news/2015/February/2-2_Board_Chairman_Gary_Campbell_Resigns.htmhttp://www.southeastgeorgiatoday.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15933&Itemid=117You are in desperate need of supervision. Hiring you in as a V.P. with no previous experience was clearly a mistake.At best, you should be re-classified as a Director, reporting to a V.P. You should be required, at the schools expense of course, to participate in at least a week-long seminar on PR/Institutional Communications. Blog rants do not qualify a person for your job.Dr. Bass has a lot of clean-up to do.http://www.southeastgeorgiatoday.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15932&Itemid=117
Bucky Kennedy encourages students to "Press On"? http://www.bpc.edu/news_and_info/news/2015/January/1-26_Kennedy_Encourages_College_Students_to_Press_On.htmAre you serious? Well, Bucky, it's like this......Maybe if you had not pushed to bring in the likes of Ergun Caner with a proven record of lying, the poor students wouldn't have to "press on". I tell you what, Bucky, why don't you "press on" and learn the meaning of spiritual discernment. Why don't you "press on" and ask God for wisdom and common sense? These trustees are unbelievable......even Gary Campbell, now the former Chairman of the Board, cuts and runs in the face of conflict. P. S. Mom and Dad, keep sending checks to BPC. Just ignore the fact that your kid is attending a school that is a complete and utter joke.....and a poor excuse for higher education. Unless, what they mean by "higher education" is the high attained by the drug problem on campus.
Peter Lumpkins has a new post, courtesy of Bucky Kennedy. What has happened to Bucky Kennedy? Seriously.His deacons need to ask him a few questions. Something ain't right. http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2015/02/a-final-but-hopeful-plea-for-the-healing-of-the-ergun-caner-family.html
It is a good thing that BP has selected a female to head the search committee. Good for them."Mom and Dad, keep sending checks to BPC. Just ignore the fact that your kid is attending a school that is a complete and utter joke.....and a poor excuse for higher education."The administration of a school is vital to the school governance but the education the students receive will come from the class room not the opulent office of any administrator. Unless all the professors are in the same class you put the administration, your comment using a very wide brush painting all those who do the actual educating as jokes and poor excuses for the education one can receive.Do you really want to say that the education (what is actually learned) one can receive there is a joke and is a poor excuse for higher education?Maybe it is and all the professors there are jokes and are poor excuses to give a quality learning opportunity to the students. I really do not know. Can you clarify that your comment is true about those teaching?
The scandal is still on-going. The scandal is that after building a career based on lies Caner was able to be appointed to leadership positions in Christian institutions, like BP. That is, there are enough people claiming to be Christians but who care so little for integrity that it's possible to succeed in so-called Christian circles and be a proven fraud. Just because Caner may have finally burned out, perhaps even reached a tipping point that some of his former supporters are turning on him, doesn't negate the fact that one can get ahead in some "Christian" circles by lying. The "Christian" media won't care; the denominational media will back their guy no matter what (try finding any reporting on Caner's fictions in the Southern Baptist media) and others will help with the cover up.Maybe this time Caner didn't away with it simply because he touched on some modern taboos. But perhaps next time, the next fraud will be smarter and succeed all the more.All the BP trustees who selected Caner should be forced to resign; all the editors of Baptist papers who wouldn't report on Caner should resign, especially at Georgia's "The Christian Index"; people like Dave Miller, at "Baptist Voices", who told us that Caner was "none of our business", should quit Christian leadership; even the passive ones, like Al Mohler who witnessed Caner's road show but wouldn't speak up about it, should apologize; the SBC hierarchy who knew about Caner's lies but said nothing simply to get along, should come clean. Reform!There's no reason that Caner should have gotten as far as he did. If that's going to change, it's going to require a sweeping and profound reformation.
Well, per his Twitter account, Ergun says he's "retired." I don't for one minute believe it. Call me cynical but I think it's a sympathy ploy. I predict He'll eventually "come out of retirement" more defiant and proud than ever. I hope I'm wrong. I genuinely hope that he truly is broken and has experienced a fundamental change of heart. That he will be content, if he ever returns to ministry, to toil in the same obscurity that he toiled in as Butch Caner before 9/11. We will see.
Mr Estes, if I were you I would just shut the hell up.
http://beforeitsnews.com/christian-news/2015/02/a-final-but-hopeful-plea-for-the-healing-of-the-ergun-caner-family-by-bucky-kennedy-2508782.htmlThe newest from Bucky Kennedy. While I have no doubt that Caner's son's death has been a breaking point, doesn't Kennedy understand that years of deceit are what everyone's issue is with Caner? And Kennedy hopes Caner will get back in the ministry? Honest, the only ministry I hope to see Caner in is working as a Christian comedian. That is truly his calling.
The question is, where is he going to land? With his brother; with Patterson?
"Mr Estes, if I were you I would just shut the hell up."I guess if I do not agree with or do not fall in line with your thinking or have questions you just do not want to address, I should remain quiet.Maybe that is the world you think you live in. Ironically though, it is not. You want to state your grievances and be heard. It is possible that there are others who like your position, there are others who agree with mine.Let me ask Tom. Do you want a single thought line of comments on your blog? Do you want people, such as I, who are willing to approach the subject or discussion being made from a different viewpoint to go away? Do you want those, who may or may not be right in their position or presentation be left alone?Tom, I will let you draw the line, it is your blog and I will respect your boundaries. Just let me know. Until then, I might irritate others just because I look at mot issues differently than them.
So can anyone tell us what, specifically the allegation of "improper behavior" is about? In my opinion Brewton Parker, Bucky Kennedy, and Lumpkins are doing Caner a disservice being vague about this. Some people are going to assume the worst (extramarital sex) and if it's not the worst then they should let people know. Also the guys at p&p apparently know what it's about but have been similarly vague. They should disclose what they know to avoid rampant speculation.
To Jon Estes:Jon, Your arrogance cancels whatever contribution you might be able to make.
This is getting to be a sticky, sticky mess. I wonder when Al Sharpton is going to show up. https://dwightmckissic.wordpress.com/2015/02/05/is-a-georgia-baptist-college-covering-up-racism/This bunch of corrupt, low-life rulers down here in rural South Georgia may soon have to give an account of their evil deeds, their schemes and scams.The cousins and politicians and preachers are interconnected and rotate on and off of the BPC board. Cover-ups can only last for so long. At some point, somebody blows the whistle.No wonder they were perfectly comfortable with Ergun Caner. It takes one to know one.
@ Jon L. Estes,That you come to an article about the Caner scandal and try -- in typical Caner-supporter fashion -- to distract in any way possible from his career of lies -- that is the scandal. That's the problem that needs reforming. See my post above.It's that there is a major segment of American evangelicalism that apparently could not care less about integrity that is the scandal. And it's still on-going even if Caner is really fading away, finally.
When faced with inappropriate sexting communication allegations, the BPC trustees allowed Dr. Caner to resign. But when faced with allegations of racist commentary, the BPC trustees wholeheartedly gave support to Dr. Caner. The racial indiscretions should have been just as weighty to the BPC trustees as the “inappropriate” communications allegations. -- https://dwightmckissic.wordpress.com/2015/02/05/is-a-georgia-baptist-college-covering-up-racism/ -- Can the sexting allegations be verified or is this just speculation as to what the "inappropriate" actions were?
The article posted by Anonymous at 3:54 gives a lot more detail, names, and more clarity to the 4th allegation of inappropriate behavior. Very well written article. Here is the URL again:https://dwightmckissic.wordpress.com/2015/02/05/is-a-georgia-baptist-college-covering-up-racism/#comments
Somewhat Off Topic but relevant to this post: In Facebook Posts, Congressman Aaron Schock’s Press Secretary Compared African Americans To Zoo AnimalsRep. Schock accepted Cole’s resignation on Thursday.In a series of Facebook posts obtained by ThinkProgress, the senior adviser for policy and communications to Rep. Aaron Schock (R-IL) posted racial comments and endorsed gentrification of his neighborhood.Benjamin Cole, a former Baptist pastor and energy industry spokesman, posted a series of videos and comments on October 13, 2013 mocking two African Americans outside his DC apartment. In the first, he compared them to animals escaping from the National Zoo engaged in “mating rituals.” That message included a video of a woman, shouting and seemingly engaged in an argument with someone not visible as she walked. In each of his posts, he used the hashtag “#gentrifytoday.” I am not sure if this is Ben Cole from Wade's blog who also worked with Wade at Emmanuel Enid.Sorry to see this happen!
Sexting???IS A GEORGIA BAPTIST COLLEGE COVERING UP RACISM?
One of the best articles I've read on this subject. I've said the same thing for years. Ergun Caner, Steve Gaines, and countless other "men-o-gawd" are merely symptoms of a much deeper problem. The Squirrel has nailed it.
Your old friend Ben Cole back in the news....http://www.cbsnews.com/news/rep-aaron-schocks-aide-resigns-after-report-on-racist-facebook-posts/
"They should disclose what they know to avoid rampant speculation."Really?If the whole truth were known there would still be speculation that more really happened. Even having all the information is not enough for some. I guess for some it has to be worse.Feeding the naysayers is never a good idea.
why do you waste so much time talking about people and their imperfections and none talking about God who is Whom we are supposed to be worshipping.
They are one in the same, more screws loose than a Model T.http://baptistnews.com/ministry/people/item/29798-former-baptist-blogger-fired-as-congressional-aide
anon 10:58 Tom is a watchman on the wall so quit throwing stones and being judgemental.
"anon 10:58 Tom is a watchman on the wall so quit throwing stones and being judgmental."We all have our heroes and for some it is Tom. For many it is not.
Jon - darn. I am absolutely crushed that I'm not your hero.
And some men's heroes are practiced, habitual, unrepentant liars whose eternal fate is the Lake of Fire. So which is worse, the white washed tomb or the one who brushes off the dirt that came from the inside in order for the tomb to appear clean to onlookers?
there are no perfect people. ya'll we are all sinners. you ever hear that song broken together by casting crowns...it can go for everyone of us. that's why i no longer agree with this blog...what if someone exposed all your lives like this? it just doesn't feel like it's done for the right reasons.
The typical SBC pastor will do nothing to hide truth and protect the status quo which is why we are in this messThe typical SBC pastor cares nothing about the Kingdom od God-only themselves and their own "ministries"BillRomans 5:1
This appears to be a thinly veiled article about the Ergun Caner/CB Scott situation by Jared Moore.http://sbcvoices.com/how-to-respond-when-a-ministry-leader-is-caught-in-disqualifying-sin/
Jon, you are probably too young to remember Jackie Robinson and Rocky Marciano as well as Dr Bob Jones Sr and some real preachers back in the 1940's and early 50's. Those were real heroes and they have not and probably never will be again. Don't take things personally and you will live longer and enjoy life much easier.
Caner is being held accountable for ten years of lies and utter foolishness. Many pastors and many in Christian leadership are sick and tired of his unwillingness to set the record straight and behave like a person who is actually saved. Let us not forget that this man has caused a lot of pain for a lot of people. His firing spree at BPC has left a lot of damage. There is an old Southern saying....."If you make you bed hard, you've got to lie in it."If pastors, churches and trustee boards flat-out REFUSE to vet who is going to stand in their pulpits or lead their Christian educational institutions, then they have tossed aside the standards and responsibilities required in the Word of God. God's Word has standards. There are sins with consequences. There are guidelines. God's word is full of mercy, but it's also full of judgment. However, most churches refuse to deal with the judgment issue. When a pastor has someone to speak in their church who CLEARLY and WILLFULLY does not follow the scriptures, it is WRONG for them to subject the congregation to a morally bankrupt person. It is ungodly and the Lord is not pleased with foolish decisions. When a trustee board reviews presidential candidates for a Christian college or university and this candidate CLEARLY and WILLFULLY does not follow the scriptures, then they do NOT need to subject the staff, the professors or the students to a morally bankrupt person. God is not pleased with foolishness and a double-minded man in leadership will only cause problems for himself and others, eventually leading an institution down a path of destruction. James 1:8 - King James Version (KJV)"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."This is not a case of ....."Well, bless his heart, we're all sinners.....he made a little mistake....." This is a man with several college degrees, to include his online doctorate from South Africa. This is a man who has written a book, who has been pastor of a church, who has been dean of a seminary, etc. etc. This is a man who should know better. Men in leadership, and even pastors, have become negligent. It's absolutely mind-boggling and downright embarrassing. We live in a "selfie" and self-centered world, not a Christ-centered world. This mindset has grossly affected the church. It's more important to be "hip" and "cool" than it is to actually follow the teachings of the Bible. Men of God need to quit ignoring when there is a fox in the hen house. Stand up and SAY SOMETHING. Having the courage to identify a problem or even trouble is not always popular, but very necessary. "Oh, but if I say something, they'll call me a hater....." "They'll say that I'm too judgmental." In all honesty......how long do you think Caner would last in a corporation or in a secular institutional environment? Seriously. The CEO of a corporation couldn't put up with his brand of foolishness, at least, not for long. It would destroy the company. Why is the Christian church willing to put up with dishonest people in their pulpits and in their institutions? This is a question that BEGS to be asked. What has happened to the modern church that SO MANY are willing to risk their own reputations for a religious circus act?Has the church lost ALL ability to utilize critical thought and reasoning? Has the church lost ALL ability to raise a question? Has the church lost ALL ability to identify the wolf in sheep's clothing? Proverbs 12:22-23 - King James Version (KJV)22 Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight.23 A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.
Bill - I do not personally know any typical pastors, if the definition you give is true. I do know some very godly and "reach the lost at all costs" pastors.Sure we read of some who might fit your definition but I would not call any of them typical.Can you try and say one good thing about any pastor you disagree with or have chosen not to like?
JonI have many nice things to say about a lot if people. My point is now that Andy Stanley had denied creationism what SBC leader is going to take up the mantle and call him out? Will you?If you are unsure, go to youtube, Andy Stanley vs Bible = failThete are very few who will call him out publicly-will you?BillRomans 5:1
Bill - Do you consider Andy Stanley a typical SBC pastor?I do not know of anyone who would agree with such a label for him.As for the video you asked me to look at. I did. He does not deny Creation (Adam and Eve...). He states clearly that many people see these things as a myth... many people do not understand them... He believes in Adam and Eve (Creation) because Jesus refers to them.His approach to address this is different than I would approach it but I can see how it might be a way to approach it if one is speaking with another who is confused with these things and your goal is to present Jesus.Can someone have a saving relationship with Jesus and:1 - not believe in Creation as presented in the Bible? 2 - Not believe in the virgin birth?3 - Not interpret the things of scripture the way you, or I do?I think he was very clear in that the foundation of our faith is not in the book or the inerrancy of scripture... but in Jesus Christ. Make Christ the go to for all things.I am not an AS fan but the clip you pointed to does not support what you are claiming.
I didn't know about the allegations against Ben until the day the article about it came out. I think that the situation with Ben was handled fairly, swiftly and was just. Racism in any form is evil and wrong. It's sad when society handles issues like this in the correct manner, while Christians and the church always drop the ball and attempt to minimize racism. We should take a look at how "the world" handles any form of racism. They have it right while we have it wrong and act as if it doesn't exist in the church when we are the worst offenders.
Jon:answers to your questions:#1 NO John 5:46&46 it is impossible to believe the words of the Lord Jesus and call Moses a liar (AS did just that)#2 NO 1John 4:1-3 To believe that Jesus was not 'virgin born' is a direct assault on His character, AND His Godhood, and makes such a person an antichrist.#3 NO Eph. 4:4-6 and John 16:13. In typical post-Christian American fashion you have left the door wide open for all kinds of nonsense to be awarded the label of truth. You would have people believe that the Holy Spirit will teach one thing to one man and the direct opposite to another and then both are afforded the "blessing" of the Lord. This is most obvious in your continued acceptance and defense of the likes of Mr. Caner (a practiced, habitual, unrepentant liar that is bound for the Lake of Fire) and now you have turned your efforts to Andy Stanley. WHY? Do you really believe that just because he has a few seminary degrees to his credit and a few years of "service" and a father of somewhat dubious prestige that this entitles him to a pass on this error that he teaches as truth? Matt. 12:37 "For by your WORDS you will be justified and by your WORDS you will be condemned." Not your degrees, tenure, lineage, peer prestige, etc. Stanley has condemned himself and would you do likewise by siding with him? Caner has condemned himself and you, Jon, have defended him. Haven't you likewise condemned yourself?
I agree with you Darrel and that was my point. The typical SBC pastor defends the status quo and only takes a stand against error when forced to do so. Back in the day, several of us called them denominational hacksSorry for the delay, I was extremely busy at work Grace and peaceBillRomans 5:1
WOW!!!I ask three questions and got an answer which is not biblical. Here are the three questions...Can someone have a saving relationship with Jesus and:1 - not believe in Creation as presented in the Bible? 2 - Not believe in the virgin birth?3 - Not interpret the things of scripture the way you, or I do?To which Darrel responded with...1 - "NO..."2 - "NO..."3 - "NO..."I do believe the whole Bible to be truth without any mixture of error - inerrant in all it says, teaches and references...I do not try and read everything as if it an evil being spoken by someone I disagree with.I also do not condemn him to hell because he gets it wrong. I refuse to add to scripture what Jesus says one must do to be saved. I refuse to say that evangelicals who differ on interpretations are not saved. I am OK with leaving that judgment to God.I interpret AS's words differently than you do. He did not deny the creation but I would agree the way he stated it is does not make sense.Here is my problem with your answers... especially # 3.If a person cannot be saved without believing in creation, as given in scripture and does believe the virgin birth is an actual event then to make such a statement is going beyond what the Bible teaches one must do to be saved.Did the thief on the cross believe in the virgin birth? Creation?# 3 is where you seem to fall into a theological problem.You do not believe that someone can have a saving relationship with Jesus unless they interpret scripture the way you or I do. Yo say no. What if we differ on some interpretations?
JonAt one time, I thought that we might be brothers, but now I am skeptical. AS totally undermined the authority and harmony of scripture in the video, and you are defending him. What AS said makes absolutely no sense to anyone. He needed to speak clearly on the issue, yet chose to speak vaguely and muddy the waters which is never helpful in a post modern world. Jon, why would you choose to defend him and not ask for clarity? His statements are NOT orthodox in nature-he may mean them in an orthodox manner, but they are NOT orthodox statementsBillRomans 6:23
Jon and Bill,Why don't you fellows take your "discussion" to your own blog sights and leave the discussions about Caner and his problems here on this web sight.Jon you seemed to have taken a lot of time discussing your point of view which no one is really interested in, especially me. And you wonder why folks say the things about you that they do.
Jon has a track record of being wrong on this blog.He debated me and lost and then changed his position on both tithing and the meaning of touch not mine anointed. His support of fellow pastors at the expense of truth is just another case of history repeating itself.Take a look at the number of posts he has made on this thread.Seems to have an awful lot of spare time doesn't he?
Jon,There is not one comment on this thread with your name on it that even remotely gives honor to the Lord Jesus Christ. Yet you find an infinite supply of nonsense to honor those men who hate Him (EC & AS and just how long is the list of heretics that you approve?). Now you speak further nonsense about the thief on the cross. Tell us all Jon, when were you afforded a look inside this man's heart to see what he really believed? You ASSUME what you wish for the sake on an untenable argument so that your place on your pedestal may remain intact. The very fact of this ASSUMPTION totally negates the workings of the Holy Spirit to reveal the Lord Jesus in the heart of a sinner, so terribly presumptuous of you, Jon, but yet you claim to know this man's heart. HOW?You have shown nothing that resembles a God fearing man, but make great bluster for those that openly lie about Him and hate Him. It is excuse after excuse with you for those men and now for yourself. I realize that you have been blinded by the god of this world and cannot see your error (Matt. 13:14&15) and I do hope that the Lord will grant you the gift of repentance. Until then, may He keep you from dishonoring Him further with your mouth. Don't bother trying to "answer" any more questions, for up 'til now all you've done is squirt around them and have shown yourself to be in league with those who hate the Lord that you claim to love. Don't you understand that to side with evil men makes you just as evil as they are? No, I don't think you do.
http://www.christianindex.org/9971.articleRead this article about Charlie Bass's first speech at BPC--is it me or does he insinuate he left BPC a few years ago BECAUSE of Caner? The timing is perfect.
Those three questions are a little sticky, however remember when someone is saved without knowledge of the attributes of God it can take some time to surrender one's opinion to the facts in the Bible. First, the person could be very young. Second, the person might not understand and needs someone to tell him/her i.e., Phillip and the Ethiopian. Third. the person could be an evolutionist and after conversion see more clearly. Just some thoughts from an old Bible believer.
http://www.christianindex.org/9971.article New BPC president says it's a miracle!
Johnny Hunt doubles down on his support of Ergun Caner:https://twitter.com/johnnymhunt/status/566319066361892865
" Anonymous said...Those three questions are a little sticky, however remember when someone is saved without knowledge of the attributes of God it can take some time to surrender one's opinion to the facts in the Bible. First, the person could be very young. Second, the person might not understand and needs someone to tell him/her i.e., Phillip and the Ethiopian. Third. the person could be an evolutionist and after conversion see more clearly. Just some thoughts from an old Bible believer."Good comments. Well thought out and shared. I hope my agreeing with you does not alienate you from some.
"Jon, but yet you claim to know this man's heart"Not so. I am speaking as to what we do know as given in scripture. Do you know this man's heart (in context with the discussion)?You probably think you do as it seems you like very much to proclaiming you know my heart and are ready to heap condemnation om me.You seem to get to much enjoyment out of this. If you really thought I was lost, undone, evil is this the way you would approach me to make me want what you have? No thanks. I will stick with the Son of God (Jesus) who demonstrates grace and mercy. Much better company.Yet, I do thank you for reminding me that I do not always have to have the right answer or right friends or right theology as determined by a blog commentor.FYI - I am not attempting to honor any man. Disagreeing with your approach in discussing these persons does not mean I am in full support of them. If I have a beef with them, I will talk to them, as the Lord leads.I do love God, even when you want to make others think you know differently. What I do not love is your enjoyment of trying to find an evil someone under every rock. Maybe that is your agenda... your joy... your delight...So sad.Tom,I know this is no sweat off of your brow but I actually thought things might have gotten nicer from those who reply here. Obviously not.Different does not always mean bad or wrong. None of us corner the market on perfect theology / doctrine. Some things are non-negotiable but adding to what a man must believe for their salvation to be real (as is being done here) is beyond my desire to argue.
Twenty Four!Count them.24 long comments (some pages long) from Jon L. Estes on just this one thread.One wonders how much Jon is accomplishing at his church when he spends this much time arguing with bloggers on this web site.In addition he hosts his own blog and probably leaves comments on other blogs as well.Is this the best use of your time Jon?
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