"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Wednesday, January 5, 2011

Fellowship Church Claims Copyright Infringement, Gets Videos Removed from Vimeo

Update: There is one place you can still listen to the Ed Young sermon excerpt asking for his church to fill out forms with their checking account and routing number. It is at Fighting for the Faith, on the November 2nd podcast, starting at about the 9:00 minute mark. Chris Rosebrough analyzes the audio of the video that was removed. So far Fellowship Church hasn't successfully removed it from the Rosebrough website.
------------
If you try to view the Ed Young videos here on this blog that highlighted Ed Young's request for the account and routing numbers to auto-withdrawl the tithe from his church members' checking accounts, you will see the message at left.

Yes, "this video does not exist", says the message.

Actually, the video does exist, just not anymore on Vimeo where it originally was posted, and more than 40,000 views were logged, and where many bloggers had linked to allow their readers to see for themselves a pastor actually request the account and bank routing numbers from his members.

Fellowship Church has claimed the videos - which were for non-commerical use, and for the purpose of educating and providing negative commentary which most agree are legitimate uses that do not constitue a copyright infringement - to force Vimeo to remove the videos from the Watchdog Vimeo account.

We believe these videos absolutely are allowed under the copyright laws under the Fair use doctrine, and are looking at how best to respond.

Interestingly, I don't see that the entire sermons are even still available on the Fellowship Church website. I could be wrong, but I don't seem them anywhere. Must get rid of the evidence, I suppose.

Too bad. Not only does Fellowship Church not want its members to see how the money is spent, they don't even want them to see clips of the preacher ASKING for the money.

Another example of "takin' it to a whole 'nutha level."....which reminds me, here is another video they need to take down:

133 comments:

Anonymous said...

As one of the other blog readers says.....

The Internet: The Great Equalizer."

Lynn said...

Churches are about as open and aboveboard as governments. They are both very powerful institutions and should not be overly trusted.

Thy Peace said...

EFF Deeplinks Blog > Judge Rules That Content Owners Must Consider Fair Use Before Sending Takedowns

Anonymous said...

That EY sermon was a mulligan.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Too bad. Not only does Fellowship Church not want its members to see how the money is spent, they don't even want them to see clips of the preacher ASKING for the money."

Or maybe more realistically, they believe that there are people using their videos in ways which dishonor the name of Christ and intentionally put a negative spin on what they disagree with.

I don't agree with FY's position here but I disagree more with the intent of this blog to possibly make the event out to be more heinous than the intent of EY's heart. You will never know because you opine (as if your opinion is truth) on these matters. Your anonymous followers are more guilty of following (a mere man) you than any FBCJax church member are of following Mac.

I actually believe you are a nice guy with messed up motives. It is possible that there is someone, more than you think Mac is, that needs to apologize to the people of FBCJax and to God Himself.

On another note: That anonymous commenter who said I checked out the headmaster job at FBCJax, did you ever come up with proof of your accusation? Nope, because you can't... You simply lied.

The Greenhouse Effect said...

They are just a bunch of hooligans.
Sick em Watchdog.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

"Or maybe more realistically, they believe that there are people using their videos in ways which dishonor the name of Christ and intentionally put a negative spin on what they disagree with."

Neither of those are legitimate reasons to make a valid copyright infringement claim. I know you wished they were legit reasons, Jon, but they are not.

Let it be said: Jon Estes never applied for the headmaster job at FBC Jax. Jon, who cares?

Jon L. Estes said...

"Let it be said: Jon Estes never applied for the headmaster job at FBC Jax. Jon, who cares?"

Maybe me... since it was an intentional slur against my character. If I had applied, shown interest, made contact about it I would not be ashamed to say so.

I am somewhat surprised you don't care about someone bearing false witness against another since you claim to make sure you are propagating truth in the posts you share. Or maybe I am not because bearing false witness could be more of what is going on here then admitted. That could explain why you don't care. hmmmmm

Anonymous said...

WD,

While not a Fair Use expert, I think it might be a tough sell in this case. I guess a case could be made that it was used in reporting news, but that seems like a stretch in this context, given the multiple times in this forum that you and others have documented it as a platform to express opinion and not as a journalistic endeavor.

I've enjoyed the dialog on this blog on both sides of most issues. I appreciate your efforts to promote a, at least generally, civil discussion on some interesting items.

Best wishes for 2011.

Mark

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Thanks Mark. I'm no expert either, but it doesn't have to be "news" to qualify for Fair Use. As I understand it, using these videos, providing criticism and commentary is not an infringement of copyright, and the Fair Use doctrine allows for it.

Glad you enjoy the discussions here.

Anonymous said...

I was in the room when EY asked us for our bank information and simply declined to give it. I have given to FC for many years through an online giving alternative, which asks for the same information, not unlike many organizations. The concept of giving the church my personal information does not offend me, but the concept of writing it down on a card, putting that card in an offering basket, allowing who knows to see it and handle it, now that bothers me.

I still count myself as a 'member' of that church, although since the lifestyle/jet story broke last year, my heart has been changing, and my confidence in the 'pastor' has been eroding. Quite simply, EY seems to be so engaged with so many other sources of income (books, speaking, C3, Miami trips, fishing trips, publishing endeavors, etc) that his role as 'pastor' seems like the wrong lable. While he is still 'preacher', he is clearly not my 'pastor' any longer.

The whole "10" series finally pushed me and my family over the edge, and we have since begun to simply look elsewhere for a place to worship. For 10 years I have been a faithful, tithing, serving, active member of FC, but my heart is changing. And I wish it wasn't.

If EY would just get on the stage and say, "I was wrong, I should not have leased the plane, I should not have been so outrageous in my lifestyle, I will change my style, and I will change my substance." If he would just do that, just add a tiny portion of humility to his 'schtick', then I and, I believe, countless others would stay engaged and stay plugged in. I just don't think it's in his DNA to do that. And it makes me so sad.

As to the ongoing 'attack' on EY here and on other blogs, I wish they were less personal, and less mean-spirited. But I understand the forum, and I think I understand the need for the enlightenment. I just wish the Kingdom of God all pulled in the same direction.

One day it will.

Thy Peace said...

EFF > Fair Use FAQ

John Burns said...

I for one, truly appreciate this website (FBC Jax Watchdog) and its bold stand in taking churches and their leaders to task for the blatant and arrogant misrepresentation of the what the NT church is truly supposed to be. I think the FBC Watchdog has done more in bringing the truth of the hypocrisy that is rampant among today's so-called megachurch that any other writer. I am constantly amused at the number of holy critics who write their smug and condescending comments yet at the sametime are unwilling to identify themselves. What is it that you have to hide?

Anonymous said...

One day it will January 5, 2011 12:58 PM

It’s not that he wanted your bank information... If you had ever written a check to FC then they have your information (routing number and account number are on the bottom of ALL preprinted checks)... He just wanted your authorization to allow you to TITHE effortlessly. He was just trying to help the (sheep, my bad) members out.

Even....”If EY would just get on the stage and say, "I was wrong, I should not have leased the plane, I should not have been so outrageous in my lifestyle, I will change my style, and I will change my substance." If he would just do that, just add a tiny portion of humility to his 'schtick', then I and, I believe, countless others would stay engaged and stay plugged in. I just don't think it's in his DNA to do that. And it makes me so sad.”... How could you be sure?

The Greenhouse Effect said...

I believe these mega church pastors do not want to have to answer to anybody. That is why they use indimidation to try to make us feel like were are going against the Bible, or against God, if we question or object. I bet they are desperate for the Wathdog to go away.

Jon L. Estes said...

"I believe these mega church pastors do not want to have to answer to anybody. That is why they use indimidation to try to make us feel like were are going against the Bible, or against God, if we question or object. I bet they are desperate for the Wathdog to go away.

January 5, 2011 1:55 PM"

William S., What did EY do to intimidate?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Jon - you ask what he did to "intimidate"....I would point you to the video I made that shows what he did, but it has been taken down.

In the video where he asked church members for their bank account & routing numbers, that request was preceded by the most abusive, arrogant, self-serving sermon on tithing I've ever heard or probably ever will hear. The "intimidation" comes from him using his position as God's preacher, declaring God's word to say that the reason people's marriages, their kids, and their lives are so messed up is because they do NOT give 10%. He mocked his congregation by laughing at how in the world they would ever expect to be blessed if they don't "bring the tithe". He even went so far as to say if a member is not tithing, they should stay home, go golfing or fishing, and stop wasting his (Ed's) and His (God's) - you know, Ed & God - stop wasting their precious time by coming to church and not bringing the tithe.

The entire sermon was one of intimidation through misuing the Bible to extract more cash from his church members.

Actually, they have no choice but to do everything in their power to remove the video and any evidence that he ever delivered that sermon. It was the worst, and I hope I never hear a sermon from a SBC pastor like it ever again.

The Greenhouse Effect said...

You nailed it Watchdog. They don't come at you directly with their intimidation. It is carefully planned and orchestrated, but never direct. It is intimidation, none the less.
And it is wrong.

Jon L. Estes said...

"The "intimidation" comes from him using his position as God's preacher, declaring God's word to say that the reason people's marriages, their kids, and their lives are so messed up is because they do NOT give 10%."

I really don't see how this would intimidate someone. Is it possible that your mindset is so pointed that anyone who sits under EY is a kool-aid drinker that they are so weak willed this would intimidate them?

If so, thats a huge accusation about some people you don't know. Maybe you think they are schizophrenic or something.

Anonymous said...

Ed Young Jr. is a General in God's army! The General does not always give you what you want, he tells you what you need to hear! More in the Bible about money than any other subject....remember!!!
Who gave you that money?
Who should get at least 10% of that money?
Who will be a better steward of it than you will be?
Why..you can do more with 90% and God as a partner than you can do with that 100%!!!
Come on Brothers and Sisters....this is not an issue!

THIS IS BIBLE!

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, TAKE IT UP WITH THE AUTHUR!!

The Greenhouse Effect said...

Where is the storehouse?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Jon says: "I really don't see how this would intimidate someone. Is it possible that your mindset is so pointed that anyone who sits under EY is a kool-aid drinker that they are so weak willed this would intimidate them?"

Jon - if I said the sky were blue, you'd say that perhaps not, that it was some shade between green and blue, and that how could I know, perhaps I'm color blind and I'm just guessing, and how dare I make such a declaration.

Anonymous said...

E.Y. is one of God's rock stars! He is not in it for the money, he could make money at anything! The haters on this blog are making Satan laugh....and making God cry!

Anonymous said...

Jon - if I said the sky were blue, you'd say that perhaps not, that it was some shade between green and blue, and that how could I know, perhaps I'm color blind and I'm just guessing, and how dare I make such a declaration.

January 5, 2011 4:31 PM

LOL! How true.

Jon L. Estes said...

Dog,

Could be you are more than just color blind.

;-)

Anonymous said...

somebody has been drinking the "hater-aid". Why not leave us alone?
My question is this: how do you keep it real when you're synthetic?

Yeah, if you are different, you are wrong....tell Noah that...tell Jonah that...tell John the Baptist that...

TELL JESUS THAT

New BBC Open Forum said...

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, TAKE IT UP WITH THE AUTHUR!!

King "AUTHUR"?

Anonymous said...

Why do you think there is so much attention and attacking going on about Ed and Mac and Ergun?

THEY ARE SOUL WINNERS!!!!

IT TAKES MONEY TO WIN SOULS PEOPLE!!

JESUS SAID THE FISH HAD COINS IN THEIR MOUTHS BECAUSE TO FISH FOR MEN IT TAKES THE TITHE.

DO THE MATH......

MORE MONEY=MORE SOULS

Dee said...

Anonymous

How much money does it take to win souls? I must have missed that in the Bible. I thought that we witness and the Holy Spirit convicts and Jesus saves. So, a pastor needs a fancy house, expensive espresso machine, a jet, and vacations in Costa Rica in order for people to be saved.

This would make a fascinating business school study. Who is the most efficient at spending the least amount of money to save souls?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Absolutely more money is not required to convert people to Christ. That is not even close to being biblical. More money is required for nicer buildings, new pews, for staff salaries, for pastor trips, for all of those things we think is "Christianity". Money is necessary because yes, resources are consumed in some activities of spreading the gospel...but MORE money does NOT mean "more souls". We could win more souls with less money, but that would require painful choices for professional religious people.

And I'd like to point out your equation is backwards when it explains what is happening in mega churches today.

Your equation:

More Money = More Souls

Should be:

More Souls = More Money

:)

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

...

and

More Souls + Abusive Tithing Sermons = More Money

or so they think.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the deacons are attempting
to clean Fellowship church. If they their praise Jesus. I am not trying to be mean, but maby the methadone clinic deacons at FBCJ should try to clean up some church mess. To give some credit cleaning house is difficult.

Anonymous said...

Some clueless anon said:
DO THE MATH......

MORE MONEY=MORE SOULS

Their reason and logic tainted by celebrity worship, a hipster preacher with much worldly appeal. The rap video is an embarrasment! But not as much as the beg-a-thon sermon for the direct deposit.

Whatever Ed Young, Mac, or some other mega-star says apparently is the truth from the throne of heaven? Not when compared to scripture, nor respectable conduct and bearing for a man who is supposed to be a leader of a congregation of believers.

You call that trash discipling? Can't be, when all the worldines is emulated by EY. BUt, people need their heroes to follow. Never mind the larger picture, just blast away at any critic who calls stuff like this into question.

The sanctimonious crying by some of these posters is really pathetic. Mega's seem to cultivate this kind of biblical illiteracy and spritual bufoonery.

Laodocea is here. People seem to equate hip coolness with being critical to reaching the people. The Holy Spirit can't do it, so we gotta take it to a HOLE 'nutha level.

Pathos, pathos, all around.

Anonymous said...

Someone just notified me of this video takedown. Unbelievable!

- jared

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Jared - yes, the videos are Gawn....GAWN! At least GAWN from Vimeo.

They are down, but not out, so stay tuned.

Praying for ALL said...

Maybe ED Young JR finally knows what he did or is doing is wrong and maybe now he is in repentance state of mind and did not want any more embarrassment. I do not know this as a fact, but I do know minds and hearts within the ministry are slowly changing

Just saying.....

Anonymous said...

"Ed Young Jr. is a General in God's army!" Anon 1/5 - 3:35pm

"E.Y. is one of God's rock stars! He is not in it for the money, he could make money at anything!" Anon 1/5 - 6:40pm

"IT TAKES MONEY TO WIN SOULS PEOPLE!!" Anon 1/5 - 9:32pm

==========
Pastor worship + believers who follow bad theology = Easy $ for pulipt opportunists

Anonymous said...

Billy Graham...Big Budget...Lot's of people won to Christ!

International Mission Board...Huge Budget....Greatest Missions organization in the world.

Franklin Graham makes over a half million dollars per year....being used to bring revival around the globe.

TBN has a world wide gospel influence....takes in 100's of millions of dollars.

Stay smug and put your head in the sand....those of us with our eyes open see the TRUTH...

IT TAKES PESO'S TO REACH PEOPLE!!

MORE MONEY=MORE MINISTRY..
BOTTOM LINE!!!!!!!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Yep, I've heard that my whole life from politicians.

More money = more govt solutions

It just ain't so, no matter how hard you want to believe it.

More money, when the "more money" is spent with little or no transparency with the ones giving it, ensures that your equation is not true.

WishIhadknown said...

"MORE MONEY=MORE SOULS"

Reminds me pf the song lyrics:
"She's buyin' a stairway to heaven."

Anonymous said...

"I actually believe you are a nice guy with messed up motives."

I heard Dr. Rogers speak against this type of judgment years ago. He said: Many times I don't even realize what my own motivations are. I have no right to try and judge others.

"Or maybe more realistically, they believe that there are people using their videos in ways which dishonor the name of Christ and intentionally put a negative spin on what they disagree with."

Couldn't that be done with almost any statement made from the pulpit?

So, if a gay rights group posts a clip from EY's sermon that they don't like and a environmentalist does the same and a pro-choice person does the same and a fiscal liberal does the same - does he take them all down?

Maybe he should remove all of his sermons from the Internet just to be safe.

By the way, that routing number clip is an embarrassment in itself without any help from anyone else.

I wonder if Johnny Hunt has been asked to take down his sermon criticizing EY's money grab.

Jon L. Estes said...

"So, if a gay rights group posts a clip from EY's sermon that they don't like and a environmentalist does the same and a pro-choice person does the same and a fiscal liberal does the same - does he take them all down?"

Are you putting the heart motives of Tom into the same category as gays, environmentalists, pro-choice abortionists, fiscal liberals... ? Now that's interesting.

"I heard Dr. Rogers speak against this type of judgment years ago. He said: Many times I don't even realize what my own motivations are. I have no right to try and judge others."

You say this as you type judgment of me? Interesting still.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Yeah, if you are different, you are wrong....tell Noah that...tell Jonah that...tell John the Baptist that..."

... Tell Mac that!

Anonymous said...

A lot of this going on lately.

Happy New Year watchdog, keep up the good work and blog on!

Bene D

Anonymous said...

"So, if a gay rights group posts a clip from EY's sermon that they don't like and a environmentalist does the same and a pro-choice person does the same and a fiscal liberal does the same - does he take them all down?"

Are you putting the heart motives of Tom into the same category as gays, environmentalists, pro-choice abortionists, fiscal liberals... ? Now that's interesting.

"I heard Dr. Rogers speak against this type of judgment years ago. He said: Many times I don't even realize what my own motivations are. I have no right to try and judge others."

You say this as you type judgment of me? Interesting still.

January 6, 2011 1:26 PM


I think the character of Eddie Haskell on Leave it to Beaver was modeled after Jon Estes.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon L. Estes said...

If I had applied, shown interest, made contact about it I would not be ashamed to say so.

Are you sticking with this statement, Jon?

Anonymous said...

Where was Fellowship Church at before EY got there? The Church was D.O.A.!!!
Yea he makes $500,000 a year but what an investment...we pay investment bankers more than that, we pay Tony Romo more than that, we pay Ryan Secrest more than that, and Ed Young has more God-given talent in his 3rd toe than those bozo's have in their whole body.
If you can deliver the goods, we must deliver the greenbacks.
Ed is a proven commodity and is bringing home that Gospel Bacon!

Anonymous said...

Where was Fellowship Church at before EY got there? The Church was D.O.A.!!!
Yea he makes $500,000 a year but what an investment...we pay investment bankers more than that, we pay Tony Romo more than that, we pay Ryan Secrest more than that, and Ed Young has more God-given talent in his 3rd toe than those bozo's have in their whole body.
If you can deliver the goods, we must deliver the greenbacks.
Ed is a proven commodity and is bringing home that Gospel Bacon!

January 6, 2011 4:38 PM

What a worldly view of the Body of Christ. You must think Jesus was a loser...He had no where to lay His head.

Uhh...wait...you sound like someone taught by....Ed.

Anonymous said...

Uhh...wait...you sound like someone taught by....Ed
-
or the deceitful devil which people will love and grow fond of.

Anonymous said...

"So, if a gay rights group posts a clip from EY's sermon that they don't like and a environmentalist does the same and a pro-choice person does the same and a fiscal liberal does the same - does he take them all down?"

Nope, just check his favorite theme "A Week Of Sex"

Still all over the internet

http://www.truveo.com/search?query=Ed+Young+sex&searchtype=general

Jim said...

Anon. Jan. 6, 4:38, help me understand exactly who compels us to "bring home the Gospel Bacon." What is the source of such a teaching? Certainly not the Bible. Is that the spiritual discernment one receives at "a whole 'nutha level." Jesus commanded us to "make disciples," not for a arrogant, bejeweled, jet-setting preacher in Texas, but for an upright teacher, preacher, and healer who was the very Son of God. That people would devote themselves to this Texas preacher/actor, and consider him "one of the Generals in God's Army" (anon. Jan. 5, 3:35 p.m.), would be amusing, if it weren't so incredibly sad. May God raise-up men and women, genuinely committed to the Good News of the Gospel, rather than their own self interests.

NYTN said...

LOL... I dealt with this foolishness numerous times on YouTube over the last 3 years. I've had my entire YouTube site shut down by Kenneth Copeland Ministries, Creflo Dollar Ministries, Andrew Wommack Ministries International, and a host of others. It's just part of the cost of doing business.

Anyway, Vimeo (like YouTube) has what's called a "counternotification process":

http://vimeo.com/dmca

With this process, you can fight back and they'll have to put those videos back up.

I have it down to a science. I'll send you an email giving you the process.

Anonymous said...

Jon L. Estes said...
"Yeah, if you are different, you are wrong....tell Noah that...tell Jonah that...tell John the Baptist that..."

... Tell Mac that!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Hold Up there John L ('L' for lockstep) Estes. To compare these biblical characters along side Mac Brunson is unfair to John, Noah and Jonah.

Neither of those guys had multi-year contracts and a subservient staff and congregation. Nor did they have all the fluffy acutrements of a mega pastor.

You are comparing apples to coconut. But I think I get where you are coming from, adolescence can be a confusing time in life. I hope you can get the full picture soon.

Garlando

Dee said...

Anonymous 4:38

This has to be one of the most bizarre comments I have read in a long time. Gospel Bacon? Fellowship Church was DOA without Ed? Have you been reading your Bible or just sitting around in an auditorium listening to men like Ed.

Please, please read your Bible through this year and concentrate on the ministry of Jesus and then the apostles. If you do, you will see how Ed's church differs from those discussed in theNew Testament (well, at least those discussed positively in the NT).

You might learn that the church is DOA without Jesus and the Bible-something I found seriously lacking when I attended Fellowship Church. Great Scott-what are they teaching out there????

Jon L. Estes said...

New BBC - I will stick by that statement.

I have been a school headmaster (while on the mission field in Nigeria) and have no desire or calling to go in that direction.

Do you have some source of information which shows I have seriously done otherwise?

Jon L. Estes said...

"Nope, just check his favorite theme "A Week Of Sex" "

And this was a bad recommendation for married couples... how so?

Jon L. Estes said...

"Hold Up there John L ('L' for lockstep) Estes. To compare these biblical characters along side Mac Brunson is unfair to John, Noah and Jonah.

Neither of those guys had multi-year contracts and a subservient staff and congregation. Nor did they have all the fluffy acutrements of a mega pastor.

You are comparing apples to coconut. But I think I get where you are coming from, adolescence can be a confusing time in life. I hope you can get the full picture soon.

Garlando"

Brother Garlando,

My comment has nothing to do with lockstep (and there is no "H" in my name. It has everything to do with each individual persons perception.

I am not offended that most on this blog who comment think Mac is beneath a slugs slime. There are many others who believe Mac to be on target for where they are and what the church is facing. I don't sit under Mac but rarely have heard a sermon of his that I was not blessed spiritually in some way (whether at a convention or sitting, when traveling, in the balcony at FBCD).

Most of my comments are not to smack or support MB but to speak to and about that words printed here. Most other comments, it seems, attack those not here. That would be adolescent behavior clearly lived.

From your favorite 50 year old adolescent - Jon L. Estes

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Jon says: "I am not offended that most on this blog who comment think Mac is beneath a slugs slime."

Jon, I don't think anyone on this blog thinks Mac is beneath a slugs slime. That is a ridiculous assertion on your part. To criticize mega church pastors is not to hate them (like Ed Young believes, with his "hater-aid" references).

Jon said: "I have been a school headmaster (while on the mission field in Nigeria) and have no desire or calling to go in that direction. Do you have some source of information which shows I have seriously done otherwise?"

I seem to recall that on this blog about 2 years ago, you expressed interest in the headmaster job when the FBCJ academy was opening. You've come here and claimed someone slurred your name by saying you applied for the job. But perhaps that was the impression you gave when you expressed interest in the academy headmaster job Perhaps you recall that? It was a long time ago, but I think I'm right.

Jon L. Estes said...

Dog, I remember jesting about it in the spirit of the give and take. Nothing serious, no interest. I have only communicated one time with Mac (via email) and did no follow-up to the one email sent and his reply. It had nothing to do with the school or the church just a simple... I am praying for you and a thank you back.

You often want people to not take everything so serious and get bent out of shape (lighten up). I do this for most of my comments. I have no dog in this hunt (pun intended).

I think you would have to agree there are some very ugly things said about Mac by commenter's on this blog. There has been much name calling of him since the beginning of your war.

Anonymous said...

zNope, just check his favorite theme "A Week Of Sex" "

And this was a bad recommendation for married couples... how so?

January 7, 2011 7:19

==============================
"A Week of Sex" is a sick message if one believes this is the answer for a happy marriage - yes, it was a bad recommendation. No one has to recommend this to be a "start up" for pre-existing issues to be solved in a marriage. This public recommendation from someone standing in the pulpit is a joke to professional marriage counselors. God help us all with preachers like Ed Young!

Jon L. Estes said...

""A Week of Sex" is a sick message if one believes this is the answer for a happy marriage - yes, it was a bad recommendation. No one has to recommend this to be a "start up" for pre-existing issues to be solved in a marriage. This public recommendation from someone standing in the pulpit is a joke to professional marriage counselors. God help us all with preachers like Ed Young!"

Profession Marriage Counselors... Thats what married couples need (rolling of eyes).

Do you think it is inappropriate to discuss sexual matters from the pulpit? The Bible speaks of sex and the importance of its frequency in marriage.

There are many today in the church who continue to fear a discussion of sex for it might harm someone or have some husband want sex more then a wife does.

Maybe those anon contributers who don't like this idea are women.

Now we can add to the list:

Talk about it is OK to drink, not OK to tithe and never OK to speak of sex and encourage more frequency in the married home.

I can hear it now. some "gonna get my point across wife" says they are not going to listen to EY and his suggestion. He is ridiculous and has lost his mind if he thinks seven days of sex can be healthy for our marriage... I am right! Right honey?

The weak willed man man who has given his spiritual leadership of the home to his wife whimpers an approving; You're right Dear.

That night he dares not hug, kiss goodnight or make any move that might be construed as he has an interest in sex. he sleeps miserably.

The next day, the dear saint of a wife tells all her friends how happy her marriage is how good a husband she has who only wants sex when she wants it. The girls all sigh and wish they had a husband like that. They all think they are married to an oversexed maniac.

Y'all who speak against this comment by EY are really, sad but humorous.

Jon L. Estes said...

""A Week of Sex" is a sick message if one believes this is the answer for a happy marriage - yes, it was a bad recommendation. No one has to recommend this to be a "start up" for pre-existing issues to be solved in a marriage. This public recommendation from someone standing in the pulpit is a joke to professional marriage counselors. God help us all with preachers like Ed Young!"

Profession Marriage Counselors... Thats what married couples need (rolling of eyes).

Do you think it is inappropriate to discuss sexual matters from the pulpit? The Bible speaks of sex and the importance of its frequency in marriage.

There are many today in the church who continue to fear a discussion of sex for it might harm someone or have some husband want sex more then a wife does.

Maybe those anon contributers who don't like this idea are women.

Now we can add to the list:

Talk about it is OK to drink, not OK to tithe and never OK to speak of sex and encourage more frequency in the married home.

I can hear it now. some "gonna get my point across wife" says they are not going to listen to EY and his suggestion. He is ridiculous and has lost his mind if he thinks seven days of sex can be healthy for our marriage... I am right! Right honey?

The weak willed man man who has given his spiritual leadership of the home to his wife whimpers an approving; You're right Dear.

That night he dares not hug, kiss goodnight or make any move that might be construed as he has an interest in sex. he sleeps miserably.

The next day, the dear saint of a wife tells all her friends how happy her marriage is how good a husband she has who only wants sex when she wants it. The girls all sigh and wish they had a husband like that. They all think they are married to an oversexed maniac.

Y'all who speak against this comment by EY are really, sad but humorous.

Jon L. Estes said...

The next day, the dear saint of a wife tells all her friends how happy her marriage is how good a husband she has who only wants sex when she wants it. The girls all sigh and wish they had a husband like that. They all think they are married to an oversexed maniac.

Y'all who speak against this comment by EY are really, sad but humorous.

Anonymous said...

Jon L. Estes said...

Dear Jon:
Has anyone told you that you talk to much? Honestly, you have so much to say you should start your own blog - so much repetition of Jon L. Estes bores me that I just skip over when I see Jon L. Estes said . . .

The Greenhouse Effect said...

Leave Jon Alone. He's for real. Check out his website. He is a true Christian, an excellent example to all.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Dear Jon:
Has anyone told you that you talk to much? Honestly, you have so much to say you should start your own blog - so much repetition of Jon L. Estes bores me that I just skip over when I see Jon L. Estes said . . .'

Obviously not.

Thanks for the chuckle.

Jon L. Estes said...

WS - Thanks for the kind word and checking out the blog and twitter page.

If those two web sites are yours, good job.

Anonymous said...

Leave Jon Alone. He's for real. Check out his website. He is a true Christian, an excellent example to all.

January 7, 2011 12:40 PM

Some of us have been reading Jon for years. If he is the real thing, we are in trouble. He thinks he is King Saul and untouchable because he is specially "anointed".

Jon, What does having great sex have to do with the Gospel? People have figured it out for centuries without the pastor having to tell them to. How about a sermon on the Holy Spirit...for a change. Or Sanctification?

Jon wrote:
"Maybe those anon contributers who don't like this idea are women."

See how nasty Jon can be?

Anonymous said...

"The weak willed man man who has given his spiritual leadership of the home to his wife whimpers an approving; You're right Dear.

That night he dares not hug, kiss goodnight or make any move that might be construed as he has an interest in sex. he sleeps miserably."

Pastors who talk like this most likely do not wear the pants but want to. Jon, your anger is showing.

Those "bad" women!

You do talk way too much...

Jon L. Estes said...

" Jon, your anger is showing.'

Gee, I'm the least angry guy in town.

I know there is a special anointing on my life. It comes from Him as I am His child. 1 John 2:20.

I still believe God's word teaches "touch not His anointed". I refuse to take the scissors and cut it out.

The bible speaks of sex (OT and NT). A preacher shouldn't just avoid these verses because some prefer they remain taboo.

" How about a sermon on the Holy Spirit...for a change. Or Sanctification? "

You can join us on Sunday I will be preaching on the last two verses of Ruth 2, as I continue the Ruth series. I will be preaching on the joy of abiding in Christ's field. You are always welcome to worship with us. If you want me too I can let you know when I do a song of Solomon series. We all might learn a few things.

I'll leave the personal mud slinging to you.

Jon L. Estes said...

"You do talk way too much..."

I see you are still passing over what I type.

You do make this more fun.

Anonymous said...

I still believe God's word teaches "touch not His anointed". I refuse to take the scissors and cut it out.

How about interpreting it correctly then (in context - it was a warning not to harm the king of the nation of Isreal) instead of the self-serving eisegesis that substitutes for good hermeneutics.

Anonymous said...

I wish I had as much free time as Estes to write comments. Where do you sign up for that job?

Jon L. Estes said...

"How about interpreting it correctly then (in context - it was a warning not to harm the king of the nation of Isreal) instead of the self-serving eisegesis that substitutes for good hermeneutics."

I'll let you make it applicable to today, if you can give a proper exegesis.

Worrying about my free time? Today is my day off so don't worry too much. Yesterday I spent 7 hours at hospital with a family dealing with a neonatal heart surgery. But thanks for worrying.

Jim said...

Jon, GROW UP! Act like a man and not an adolescent boy. Adults would like to have a discussion here.

Jon L. Estes said...

Jim,

I have no idea what you are referring too. Are you saying you want to control the conversation?

Jim said...

Jon, regarding your 8:23 comment: I'm not surprised you don't understand; you're too busy defending the indefensible to listen with an open mind and heart. You have posted 20 times on this current topic. I don't think I am the one trying to "control the conversation."

Anonymous said...

"I still believe God's word teaches "touch not His anointed". I refuse to take the scissors and cut it out."

It applies to ALL believers in the NC. You tried to teach folks it applied to pastors when you were defending Gaines and twisted scripture to try and protect him.

Fortuantly, some study for themselves and know when pastors twist scripture for their own benefit. We are on to the likes of you."

"The bible speaks of sex (OT and NT). A preacher shouldn't just avoid these verses because some prefer they remain taboo."

Sarcasm alert
Sure, it was REAL important to Jesus and He spoke of it often.

"ou can join us on Sunday I will be preaching on the last two verses of Ruth 2, as I continue the Ruth series. I will be preaching on the joy of abiding in Christ's field. You are always welcome to worship with us. If you want me too I can let you know when I do a song of Solomon series. We all might learn a few things."

You could not teach me anything. I do not seek out the arrogant to twist scripture for me.

I prefer my teachers to be humble and sincere. The real deal.

Anonymous said...

Worrying about my free time? Today is my day off so don't worry too much. Yesterday I spent 7 hours at hospital with a family dealing with a neonatal heart surgery. But thanks for worrying.

January 7, 2011 5:48 PM

Try reading Matthew 6...braggert. You sound like Caner and some BI who are constantly trying to brag about their "works". The real thing does not have to brag.

Anonymous said...

Maybe ED Young JR finally knows what he did or is doing is wrong and maybe now he is in repentance state of mind and did not want any more embarrassment. I do not know this as a fact, but I do know minds and hearts within the ministry are slowly changing

Just saying.....

January 6, 2011 7:47 AM

If there was true repentence, it would look totally different. In fact, he would get out of ministry his shame would be so huge in the way he has made merchandise of the Gospel.

Anonymous said...

I wish I had as much free time as Estes to write comments. Where do you sign up for that job?

January 7, 2011 5:30 PM

The career of professional paid Christian. You get to live in a bubble and live off others. You can even use the OT tax laws to get a raise!

You know, just like Paul did.

Anonymous said...

I bet money Jon is not snarky to those paying his salary. Perhaps that is why he comes here...to blow off steam he can't toward those he is dependent on for a living.

He wears the "pastor" face at church. Most do or they would be out on their ears.

Either that or they are typical lemmings that don't know scripture and think he is "specially anointed" that they cannot be. Of course he teaches that to them...great way to guarantee the money comes in!

tikatu said...

Watchdog, definitely file a DMCA counternotice. Your use of these sermon videos is definitely covered by the Fair Use Doctrine as they're being used for commentary.

You can find more information on how to write and file a counternotice here: http://chillingeffects.org/ You might also want to report this DMCA to them; they like to know where threats to free speech are coming from.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Try reading Matthew 6...braggert. You sound like Caner and some BI who are constantly trying to brag about their "works". The real thing does not have to brag"

My intent was not to brag but honestly respond to a direct criticism. My apologies if it came off that way. Somehow the conversation has become personal. if it was my error, I apologize. Would you like to get back to discussing the subject(s)?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Just drop it Jon. If you want to get back to the topic, look at the title of this particular post.

"Fellowship Church Claims Copyright Infringement..."

You really are the one who takes things off topic, and makes them personal, and tries to make them about YOU!

Your first comment under this post assumed that I have "messed up motives", and that I need to apologize to God and FBC Jax. You make it personal Jon, instead of discussing the issue at hand: EY, his abusive tithing sermons, and now his tactics of getting rid of the evidence by a Copyright infringement takedown on my videos. THAT is the topic. If you don't like the topic, take up your issues on YOUR blog, sir.

You've also made this about someone months ago "slurring" your name saying you applied for a job somewhere.

Please stop making your comments here about you, what you do, what people said about you, and stop attacking the people who comment here and stop attacking me. Take these up on YOUR blog, Jon, not mine.

I find it sad, yet humorous in a way, that a blog that is devoted to discussing the misbehavior of SBC pastors, that you, an SBC pastor, come here and misbehave in the Comment section of the blog by attacking the commentors and trying to draw attention to yourself. Your very existence here, your haughty attitude toward commentors and myself, serves to make the point of this blog and the problem we have with so many SBC pastors.

If you can't stop, just return to being a daily reader lilke most people, and don't comment. Or, better yet, take up your issues about yourself and bloggers on YOUR blog.

Now, back to the topic? EY and Copyright infringement?

Jon L. Estes said...

At he beginning of a NASCAR race and other events on TV, there is a disclaimer that all rights are property of NASCAR and no part of the broadcast can be reproduced or used in any way without the permission of NASCAR.

Would or could not the same copyright laws be in place for churches who broadcast their services?

I think it is fair to say that a church owns its broadcasts and presentations and can not be used without their permission.

It would seem VIMEO or others who choose to take what is not theirs and let it be used in a manner the organization does not give permission too or does not like can be made to remove the content.

Anonymous said...

"Would or could not the same copyright laws be in place for churches who broadcast their services?

I think it is fair to say that a church owns its broadcasts and presentations and can not be used without their permission."

I am trying to picture Paul concerned about the copyright on his letters to the churches. Instead they were passed around and now...2000 years later... churches not involved at all are reading them.

So, I suppose pastors should prepare their sermons with copyright in mind? How very worldly of you, Jon. Try to think more like a true believer, Jon, than those in the world.

Jon L. Estes said...

"I am trying to picture Paul concerned about the copyright on his letters to the churches. Instead they were passed around and now...2000 years later... churches not involved at all are reading them.

One could disagree with a persons interpretation of scripture but to equate anyones sermon to the level of scripture would not be a good thing.

Would you support the removal of copyright protection from all Christian media? Music? Books?

"So, I suppose pastors should prepare their sermons with copyright in mind? How very worldly of you, Jon. Try to think more like a true believer, Jon, than those in the world."

Pastors should prepare their sermons with truth in mind but also with the fact they now live in a time where professing Christians are out to destroy anything they can about you. Not compromising truth but fully aware.

Does this support bad theology? No, but there is a better way to deal with what we disagree with than the way it is being done.

Do you think Paul would have started a blog to criticize, point out their faults or conflict of doctrines with other believers?

What Paul did write was ultimately from God, not Paul. The same can not be said about this and other blogs.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I don't think this comment is too long, but it won't go through so I'll break it into two parts.

Jon L. Estes said...

New BBC - I will stick by that statement.

I have been a school headmaster (while on the mission field in Nigeria) and have no desire or calling to go in that direction.

Do you have some source of information which shows I have seriously done otherwise?

January 7, 2011 7:17 AM


Sorry not to have seen this earlier, Jon. Why, yes, I believe I can refresh your memory although I have no idea how you define "seriously" in this case. That's a new qualifier.

It was on the long-since deleted blog of Robert Peeples when he asked what people thought about FBC Jax starting a school. You volunteered your services (as if Peeples had any pull), and it didn't sound like you were kidding around.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I have posted Part 2 four times now, and it keeps disappearing. I ♥ Blogger NOT!

Wait for it. It will eventually show up.

Anonymous said...

"One could disagree with a persons interpretation of scripture but to equate anyones sermon to the level of scripture would not be a good thing."

Really? Then you are not using enough scripture in your sermons. Too much Jon, not enough Christ.

Anonymous said...

"Do you think Paul would have started a blog to criticize, point out their faults or conflict of doctrines with other believers?"

Yes, he mostly likely would have used a blog to warn about the Judaizers. After all, he WROTE, for public consumption that he hoped they would emasculate themselves.

Anonymous said...

"What Paul did write was ultimately from God, not Paul. The same can not be said about this and other blogs."

So, only papyrus is Holy? How silly. Truth is Holy. You just want to want to be the arbitur of truth.

Jon L. Estes said...

"It was on the long-since deleted blog of Robert Peeples when he asked what people thought about FBC Jax starting a school. You volunteered your services (as if Peeples had any pull), and it didn't sound like you were kidding around."

Oh well, I guess that is one of the problems with these types of forums. A person can be attempting to be light in humor but be taken as angry and hateful or vice versa. Maybe that is why comments about a persons character are hard to comprehend the heart behind the comment.

No interest, never before, now or in the future do I have in the headmaster job. Hope that clears up any mis-comprehension.

New BBC Open Forum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jon L. Estes said...

"So, only papyrus is Holy? How silly. Truth is Holy. You just want to want to be the arbitur of truth."

Not really. It would seem silly to equate this blog or any blog with scripture. All believers should be sharing how God speaks to them through scripture and it is possible that scripture can be deeper than the icing on a cake.

EY and the church he leads has every right and I would support that right to claim copy-write for the sermons he preaches. A greater way for Christians to handle wrong doctrine is to proclaim the truth, not everyone else's untruths. Let God sort the wheat and tares of doctrine. They will grow together and we are instructed to let them do so. He will sort things out.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Jon - anyone has a right to copyright their work. That is absolutely not the question posed here.

Our copyright laws allow for "Fair Use" of copyrighted material for certain circumstances. You can copyright your sermons if you like, but I have the right also to take portions of them for the purpose of analysis and criticism create my own work with them.

So it is not copyright vs. not copyright...it is: do the Vimeo videos of Ed Young constitute a "Fair Use" (according to law, not your desires as a preacher) of his copyrighted sermons?

I do find it slightly hypocritical for them to complain of copyright infractions, when look at his "Ho Nutha Level" video, 3:20 mark, and Fellowship Church has used the Gatorade logo on a drink, and renamed it "Haterade". So it is ok for them to use copyrighted trademarks for the purpose of parody, but not ok for other Christians to use his sermons for analysis, criticism, and education.

Anonymous said...

A greater way for Christians to handle wrong doctrine is to proclaim the truth, not everyone else's untruths. Let God sort the wheat and tares of doctrine. They will grow together and we are instructed to let them do so. He will sort things out.

January 8, 2011 11:42 AM

I guess then Paul and John and others were in sin to warn about the wolves, hirlings, Judaizers, etc. That would mean you had best be careful accusing folks here of having an icing deep understanding of scripture. God will sort it out...remember?

Seems Jon has a special dispensation to do what he tells us NOT to do. Typical.

Jon, it would be nice if you would at least think before you use your icing deep understanding of scripture. We are not your lemmings who sit in your pews every week.

It is a different thing when you get out of your local church bubble. We do not think you are more "specially anointed" than we are.

BTW: I have seen what BBC is trying to post. You most certainly did put feelers out for a headmaster job WHILE pastoring a church.

Jon L. Estes said...

Tom,

How is "Fair Use" defined and determined

"not your desires as a preacher"

My comments had nothing to do with my desires as a preacher. It had everything to do with how we as Christians ought to handle false doctrine or teachings. Something you chose to not address. That's OK, you don't have to but the comment was used with a scriptural thought attached to it.

New BBC Open Forum said...

No interest, never before, now or in the future do I have in the headmaster job. Hope that clears up any mis-comprehension.

Just wait for it, Jon. You might have to eat those words. We'll see how "light in humor" you seemed to be. I'm having problems getting Part 2 of my comment to "stick," so hang in there.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Test

New BBC Open Forum said...

Anyone else having problems getting comments to go through and "stick"? Mine keep disappearing after they've posted. This was an issue several weeks ago and they finally fixed it after a week or two of aggravation. Now the problem has returned.

If a dozen duplicate comments of mine appear later, I'll clean up the mess. Until then, wait for it. Part 2 is coming.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Trying "Part 2" again in 3 parts:

Peeples introduced his short-lived blog in a comment on this blog. It was under the "Where is the Leadership?" article from November 29, 2007.

R.L. Peeples said...

R. Peeples,

http://fbcjaxopenblog.blogspot.com

Check it out everyone. Interest discussions Watchdog.

November 30, 2007 10:32 PM


In your second comment in this thread (January 5th, 11:27 a.m.) you said, "If I had applied, shown interest, made contact about it I would not be ashamed to say so."

I had to go back and look for the anonymous comment to which you referred in your first comment in this thread (January 5th, 10:49 a.m.) where you stated, "On another note: That anonymous commenter who said I checked out the headmaster job at FBCJax, did you ever come up with proof of your accusation? Nope, because you can't... You simply lied."

I didn't remember reading that exchange (and still don't). It was way back in the FBC Dallas fountain article from December 4, 2010.

Continued below...

New BBC Open Forum said...

Continued...

Anonymous said...

Oh, I see Estes is back! The same pastor who told the BBC bloggers to "not touch God's anointed man".

He really believes pastors have a special anointing other believers cannot have. Even when they protect pedophile ministers of prayer. Estes knows best, of course.

Hey Estes, did you get an interview for the job of headmaster at the FBCJax school? We know you inquired. Did you tell your church you are looking for another job?

December 10, 2010 8:20 AM


I wondered why you brought it up again now when you responded back then. You said in response to the commenter (it wasn't me, I assure you)...

Jon L. Estes said...

Hey Estes, did you get an interview for the job of headmaster at the FBCJax school? We know you inquired. Did you tell your church you are looking for another job?

***********

Inquired? I don't think so. Who gave you such information?

I never inquired about this job. It is not what I am called to be. I have no desire to live in Florida.

False accusations continue to be made, I see.

I didn't know I was looking for another job. I like the one I have.

Can you produce any source for such baseless facts? I've been a headmaster of a school, while planting a church. Of course this was when I was on the mission field in Nigeria.

Loved that job also.

December 10, 2010 12:27 PM


Continued below...

New BBC Open Forum said...

The depths of my loathing for Blogger are bottomless this morning! I have posted, reposted, and reposted again only to have comments go poof in less than a minute after they successfully(?) publish.

New BBC Open Forum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jon L. Estes said...

Interesting. The comment was not made with me in mind but two men who I have worked with who I knew who could do the job and I would love to recommend.

I can see how I could have been more clear. I wasn't, my apologies.

"We haven't forgotten how you continue to backpedal about your defense of Steve Gaines ("touch not God's anointed man) protecting Paul Williams."

I shared my personal opinion for SG's to resign on his own, not being forced out. I know i was clear on that, on more than one occasion. Doesn't matter, it seems.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Apparently Blogger does not want to publish any comment with a hyperlink in it today. So let me try this. You'll have to copy and paste the URL below into your browser.

Continued...

Jon, I believe you when you say you never applied for or formally inquired (i.e. of the appropriate party) about the job. However, I do believe you "showed interest" as evidenced by your comment here:

http://tinyurl.com/2cbs442

The profile links still work. The others go to "Blog not found" since the blog was deleted. In fact, it was deleted so long ago it doesn't even show up in a Google search now.

We haven't forgotten how you continue to backpedal about your defense of Steve Gaines ("touch not God's anointed man") protecting Paul Williams.

In this case I'll leave it to others to discern for themselves whether you "showed interest," were "attempting to be light in humor," or were just tooting your own horn.

New BBC Open Forum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

I shared my personal opinion for SG's to resign on his own, not being forced out. I know i was clear on that, on more than one occasion.

Obviously you saw my last comment before it vaporized for the 10th time.

The backpedaling to which I referred was your saying you weren't aware SG had known about PW for 6 months when your comment history shows you showed up six months after that story broke. It has nothing to do with whether you thought SG should resign voluntarily.

Here's a comment from Wade Burleson's blog where you replied to an unknown commenter:

Jon L. Estes said...

Some folks first met Jon when he went on BBC open forum a few years back and rebuked them for 'touching thine anointed' Dr. Financial Gaines. The pastor who coddled a pedophile minister of prayer.

Yes I made the statement about touch not his anointed but then that statement was not original to me. if there is a problem you need to take it up with the One who stated it first.

Of course, I made this statement long before information about the long time pedophile on staff was broken.

Mon Jun 22, 08:55:00 PM 2009

Not so fast there, Jon. Here is the very first comment you left on the NBBCOF:

Jon L. Estes said...

I'm reminded of David going into the camp and taking Saul's sword. When he left the camp his men asked why he did not kill Saul. David could not because it would be wrong to do anything to God's anointed, even when they have gone mad.

I recommend a reading of "A Tale of Three Kings" by Gene Edwards. Every church member, in any church, could benefit from the insight Edwards demonstrates. It is a lesson on brokenness.

5:08 PM, June 21, 2007

Note that date was six months after the Paul Williams story broke in December 2006, so don't pretend you didn't know what the situation was when you showed up. Back then that was the main topic of discussion most days.

Also, why do you assume because someone holds a job he is "anointed" by God? Would you say Darrell Gilyard was anointed by God? How about Jim Bakker (who's back fleecing the sheeple again on late-night TV)? How about all those "ministers" in the rogues' gallery on Christa Brown's blog? Appointed by man doesn't necessarily equate to anointed by God.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Note that date was six months after the Paul Williams story broke in December 2006, so don't pretend you didn't know what the situation was when you showed up. Back then that was the main topic of discussion most days."

I don't know who was discussing it but it was not a topic in the circles I frequent. I had no idea of the subject until I read it on the BBC blog (I think that is where I saw it first) some time after I began following it.

"Also, why do you assume because someone holds a job he is "anointed" by God? Would you say Darrell Gilyard was anointed by God? How about Jim Bakker (who's back fleecing the sheeple again on late-night TV)? How about all those "ministers" in the rogues' gallery on Christa Brown's blog? Appointed by man doesn't necessarily equate to anointed by God."

If they are believers and scripture is correct then they are anointed.

Anonymous said...

Jon is simply rewriting history on both accounts because the historical record does not paint a pretty picture.

Jon, seriously, that comment on Peeples FBC Jax blog did not even hint that you were thinking of "others" for the job. Nice parsing, though. Some might believe it but not those of us who have been reading you for a few years on several other blogs.

And yes, you did come on BBC Open forum teaching "Touch not God's anointed" in relation to Gaines AFTER the Williams pedophile story was the main topic. I remember that whole exchange quite well. It was quite an exchange.

Jon, just a tip... The king should never engage the peasants, they are smarter than you think. You must be twins with Louis...or perhaps this sort of parsing is just common within the SBC. We remember when Louis said he was not now or did not plan to be involved with any SBC entity. then we find out he was appointed to an SBC entity Board and KNEW IT WHEN HE said that here. Integrity is not a big thing in the SBC.

Frankly, I check everything any pastor or SBC leader says these days.

Lydia

(Having trouble with blogger sign in, too, BBC!)

Anonymous said...

If they are believers and scripture is correct then they are anointed.

January 8, 2011 5:47 PM

No Jon, you compared Gaines to King Saul on that thread and claimed we should not 'touch thine anointed'. You never once mentioned 1 John. OTHER BLOGGERS had to point it out to you. You were too busy in the OT and comparing pastors to Kings of Israel.

Your views makes Baptist churches the safest place for pedophiles and those who harbor them.

Lydia

Jon L. Estes said...

"No Jon, you compared Gaines to King Saul on that thread and claimed we should not 'touch thine anointed'. You never once mentioned 1 John. OTHER BLOGGERS had to point it out to you. You were too busy in the OT and comparing pastors to Kings of Israel."

The comparison was and still is how God still calls men out to lead His people. since there were no bishops, overseers (as in the NT) in the OT we can see the comparison. "Overseers' is God's term, not mine. God anoints men to fill this created position of His. Are all men who are in this role supposed to be there. I don't think so. Am I the one who gets to say who is and who is not? I don't think so. I'll let God separate the wheat from the chaff.

Jon L. Estes said...

If Vimeo had the right to keep the videos up, don't you think they would have?

New BBC Open Forum said...

I don't know who was discussing it but it was not a topic in the circles I frequent.

On the blog, Jon. On the blog. When you first commented on the NBBCOF blog in June 2007 it was a frequent topic of discussion there, so it's difficult to believe someone could have read much of it at all and not been aware of SG's protecting a confessed pedophile for six months.

I have no idea what circles you're a part of or what y'all discuss there. I think it's clear I was speaking strictly in the context of the NBBCOF blog.

Anonymous said...

" I don't think so. I'll let God separate the wheat from the chaff."

And if a pedophile happens to be one of them, then you just keep your mouth shut and let God handle it.

One wonders why the Epistles needed to be written at all. Those problems Paul addressed? Why didn't he just let God handle it and not mention them at all with any instruction.

Lydia

Anonymous said...

"I don't know who was discussing it but it was not a topic in the circles I frequent."

Don't you just love the obfuscation from a "pastor", no less. Jon knew exactly what you were talking about...he was there!...he is trying to redirect.

And he did "frequent" the circle at BBCOpenforum for many months during that time.

Lydia

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lydia,

Obfuscate much, yes. I try to give ignorant people the benefit of the doubt. People who just act ignorant? Not so much.

tikatu said...

"If Vimeo had the right to keep the videos up, don't you think they would have?"

In a word: no. It's SOP for a hosting service to remove things if a valid DMCA takedown order is provided. They don't have the personnel to investigate every claim, which is why a counternotice is provided.

Check out chillingeffects.org to see how often Google gets DMCA notifications.

Anonymous said...

"If Vimeo had the right to keep the videos up, don't you think they would have?"

In a word: no. It's SOP for a hosting service to remove things if a valid DMCA takedown order is provided. They don't have the personnel to investigate every claim, which is why a counternotice is provided.

Check out chillingeffects.org to see how often Google gets DMCA notifications.

January 10, 2011 12:03 AM

People have NO clue how this stuff works. For example...many bad reviews of a book will be removed from the Amazon site if one person complains. I have seen many writers do this to get rid of negative reviews.

However, the person whose bad review was removed HAS to complain to Amazon to get it reposted. Most don't bother and most do not even realize it was removed unless they go back to check.

Anonymous said...

"Are you putting the heart motives of Tom into the same category as gays, environmentalists, pro-choice abortionists, fiscal liberals... ? Now that's interesting."

Straw man argument. No, you are the expert on judging motivations, not me.

"You say this as you type judgment of me? Interesting still."

Nice try Estes. I am not judging your motivations as you are Tom's.

Is this the brand of advanced theology that your congregation enjoys each week?

Anonymous said...

"Maybe that is why comments about a persons character are hard to comprehend the heart behind the comment."

In that case, how were you able to deduce that the Dog's motivations are messed up?

Anonymous said...

I love the Internet. These blowhards always leave a trail that comes back to bite them.

Anonymous said...

Worrying about my free time?

Judging motivations again? I'm not worried. Just wondering where I can sign up for a job that lets me post comments online all day long. Sounds fun.

Today is my day off.

Do you really think anyone will notice the difference?

Yesterday I spent 7 hours at hospital with a family dealing with a neonatal heart surgery.

Does your arm ever get tired from patting yourself on the back?

Anonymous said...

"Maybe that is why comments about a persons character are hard to comprehend the heart behind the comment."

Heart does not matter. We can only judge fruit by actions. Amazing how many people want to ignore how Mac responded to a virtually unknown blog (at the time). Thanks to Mac's immature and unethical response, now it is well known!

Had Mac ignored this blog, many could continue to follow Mac in ignorance. Now, they can't.

Anonymous said...

"Had Mac ignored this blog, many could continue to follow Mac in ignorance. Now, they can't."

Kind of ironic that the Mac worshipers continue to call for the ending of the blog when it was Mac himself that made it so popular.

Anonymous said...

"I'll let you make it applicable to today, if you can give a proper exegesis."

You have it backwards Jon. The person making the claim is responsible for presenting a biblically sound defense. Not the other way around.

Anonymous said...

"If Vimeo had the right to keep the videos up, don't you think they would have?"

No, Jon. You're either very naive or feigning ignorance again. I suspect the latter. Vimeo is one of the worst free video hosting sites for deleting people's videos at the drop of a hat. I had a Vimeo account for a short time. I posted exactly two videos on it, one public, the other private and visible to only one other person.

A week later I logged in only to find BOTH had been deleted by Vimeo claiming "copyright infringement." They didn't say anyone had claimed copyright infringement (no one else could have even seen the private one), rather they just seemed to assume there was some sort of copyright violation when there wasn't. As far as I was concerned it wasn't even worth protesting, but many people do and are successful in getting their videos reposted.

Continued below...

Anonymous said...

Continued...

Vimeo has no interest in protecting the rights of people who post there. Apparently all someone has to do is scream "copyright violation!" and Vimeo caves. Only if you're willing to fight them are your rights protected.

Please take the time to read the references to Fair Use that others have provided above and halfway familiarize yourself with it before trying to discuss something you seem to have no understanding of.

New BBC Open Forum

Anonymous said...

I laugh at the notion that it takes lots of money to win souls. I doubt the preachers in China are banking money the way EY is. http://www.christianpost.com/article/20091021/church-growth-in-china-too-fast-for-seminaries-to-keep-up-says-chinese-leader/

No, it takes a lot of money for EY to live the way he lives and create a flashy marketing campaign to pilfer Christians out of smaller churches.

I am sure EY would do well in selling products on infomercials, but to treat the gospel as a product and the church as a business just is wrong.

Anonymous said...

Oh my. When this man's turn comes to stand before our Lord and Savior and Most Holy God, do you think he'll want to do this video for Him? Give me peace, Lord.

Just asking.