"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Tuesday, March 11, 2014

Brewton Parker Alumni Board Member Makes Public Resignation Over Ergun Caner; Meanwhile Caner Offers Confusing "Vision" for BP Future

Jeff Dickerson, a graduate of Brewton-Parker College and an Atlanta attorney, has tendered his resignation from the National Alumni Board of the college.

On Facebook yesterday, Dickerson posted:
"I am very thankful for the valuable life lessons I learned while attending Brewton-Parker College. However, I am saddened and embarrassed by the new administration and by the direction in which the school is moving. Accordingly, I today tendered my resignation from the National Alumni Board."  Jeff Dickerson, on FB, 3/10/14
You can see Dickerson's name listed here on the Brewton-Parker website as a member of the board. I'm sure it will be removed very quickly. I have captured a portion of the NAB member list showing Dickerson's name before it is removed today.

Further down in the Facebook thread, in response to friends wanting more information on his reasons for the resignation, Dickerson provided the following links:

Ergun Caner, Ex-Muslim Evangelical Leader, Exposed As Fake (by Walid Zafar)

and

Ergun Caner and the Integrity of Baptist Institutions (by Associated Baptist Press).

Bravo for Dickerson. Dickerson is no Muslim, he is no blogger in his mother's basement, nor is he a Calvinist. No, he is a defense attorney for a prominent law firm in Atlanta that is sorely disappointed that his college has gone off the deep end and hired Ergun Caner.

Meanwhile, to make things worse for Brewton Parker grads, students, and Georgia Baptists, Ergun Caner provided his "vision" for Brewton Parker in an interview he gave to Gerald Harris. This "vision" has to leave all those associated with Christian education scratching their heads - including the members of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (SACS) who will be visiting Brewton Parker any day now to re-evaluate Brewton Parker's probationary status.

Ergun Caner seems to be confusing the function of an accredited college with that of a church or seminary. It seems he is more interested in BP being a center of indoctrination and not education. These quotes of his "vision" for Brewton Parker cannot possibly help their standing with SACS:
"Brewton-Parker has had some financial issues and athletic issues, but there is not one thing that can’t be solved by an altar call, by a revival." 
Really?  An "altar call" will solve the issues of a college dealing with accreditation issues? So what are these "financial issues" to which Caner refers? Let's read them right from the SACS disclosure statement after their last assessment, which extended their probation. SACS says Brewton Parker: 
"..had failed to demonstrate compliance with Core Requirement 2.11.1 (Financial resources), Comprehensive Standard 3.10.1 (Financial stability), Comprehensive Standard 3.10.3 (Control of Finances), and Federal Requirement 4.7 (Title IV program responsibilities) of the Principles of Accreditation. To continue as an accredited institution, despite failing to comply with the standards, the institution was able to meet the provisions of good cause.  
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure what "altars" and "revivals" have to do with any of these problems cited by SACS that, if they are not corrected by now, could result in Brewton Parker losing their SACS-accreditation this June.

Unfortunately, Caner's remarks get worse:
"We’ve got to invert the order of our priorities....The most important thing is not the degrees we give or the classroom; it is the altar. The classroom will take care of itself if you’ve got an altar, if you get the students back. "
What does that even mean? What is SACS supposed to think when they read the president of Brewton Parker uttering such unclear "vision", claiming the classroom will "take care of itself" if you get the students to "an altar"?

Sorry, but it gets even worse, as Caner shows he is much less interested in education than he is in religious indoctrination:
"I had rather cancel class and have chapel go on all day. I had rather have an all night cottage prayer meeting than have a symposium. We are going to have education that is focused on wisdom more than knowledge. Anybody can give you knowledge, but only God can give you wisdom."
Of course. Chapel over class. "Cottage prayer meetings" over symposiums. I doubt SACS is familiar with "cottage prayer meetings".  If they aren't, here is how to conduct a "cottage prayer meeting" according to the Tennessee Baptists. 

And for good measure, here is Ergun Caner's vision for Brewton Parker: :
"I want to see Brewton-Parker brought back to its glory days – to a invitation-giving, soul winning, sinners’ prayer leading, hope-to-a-local-church, inerrantist, general atonement, mission obsessed ministry."
But Caner knows this is all just religious-speak red-meat to the Georgia Baptists. Caner knows that retaining accreditation is not about altars or chapels or "cottage prayer meetings" or revivals. It is dedicated educators implementing systems in the college that will meet SACS standards - which I'm sure has been going on by dedicated staff and educators at BP way before Ergun Caner was dumped in their laps.

But if BP does retain their accreditation, Caner will likely claim victory, that God did it because Ergun Caner came on the scene to save the day and lead them "back to the altar". If BP does retain their accreditation - which they probably will - it is because of the leadership of the school before Caner and those on staff working hard to correct the deficiencies. Not because of altars or revivals or a miracle of God.

I would say this: Georgia Baptists ought to get to an altar and have a cottage prayer meeting - so they can pray for Brewton Parker's future under the leadership of Ergun Caner.

91 comments:

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Just in the nick of time...Dickerson's name is now removed from the alumni board list.

Thor said...

So let me be the first to say to Jeff Dickerson: "WAAA WAAA WAAA." I get so sick of complainers like you! You are a leader. You should know better. WAAA WAAA WAAA!" Just kidding Jeff, but wanted you to know to expect this response from some of GAWD's HOLY MEN. And by the way, I would never really blog or talk to another person that way. Not in a blog, or an email, or on the phone. And certainly, never while standing behind a pulpit, while being paid six figures to "serve" the Lord. WAAAA WAAAA WAAAA. LOL.

Mark said...

Seems to me that Caner isn't all that concerned about keeping SACS accreditation. He should be.
Most students who go to unaccredited schools are ignorant of the consequences of their school not being regionally accredited. Life is not fun when you get rejected from admission to graduate programs or that your credits won't transfer and you have to retake all those English and math courses.
You are right, alter calls won't fix the problems.

J Duncan said...

I think he's already thrown in the towel and is thinking about protecting his career once the school loses accreditation and turns into a Bible College. (This is someone with a long-term view, as you know.) The SACS decision won't be his fault, it will be the godless educational professionals who don't understand and appreciate the important things of God.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

James, the list of outstanding items centers around financial aid - the majority of the problems identified years ago seem to have been corrected, so it would not surprise me at all if SACS does take them off probation. But Caner's description of his vision doesn't sound like one of a regionally accredited college.

But you are so right - if SACS takes away accreditation, it will be those secular educators who can't appreciate all the wonderful chapels and "cottage prayer meetings" going on at the campus. But if they do keep it, Caner is the hero for "bringing them back to the altar".

Tom Parker said...

And high up Southern Baptists support such nonsense as it relates to Caner--unbelievable!!

Debbie Kaufman said...

It's refreshing to see a Christian man follow his conscience. It's good to see a Christian man have a conscience.

Stephen said...

Ah, yes. Ergun Caner, a man of conscience.

yeoberry said...

It's tragic that Christians of integrity have to separate themselves from their alma mater because of the lack of integrity of others.

Mr. Dickerson is an attorney and has expressed his dismay at Caner destroying his alma mater here: https://www.facebook.com/ErgunButchCaner

Anonymous said...

I applaud Mr. Dickerson for his stand and his action.

yeoberry said...

I don't understand how this story can be so under-reported.

Dickerson is one of the few to express out-rage at is what a really outrageous situation. See his comments on the "Ergun Butch Caner" facebook page

Anonymous said...

A BIG AMEN goes out to Debbie's comment.

Anonymous said...

A BIG AMEN, goes out to Debbie's
comment!

Jim Rogers said...

The students here at BP love our President and will not allow the haters and liars to defame his good name.

He has taught us "you are to love everyone, but you don't have to like everyone."

I don't like you

Tom Kelley said...

There are no altars in biblical Christianity.

Tom Kelley said...

He has taught us "you are to love everyone, but you don't have to like everyone."

A quote from 2nd Opinions, I guess. Not from the Bible.

Tom Kelley said...

"The students here at BP love our President and will not allow the haters and liars to defame his good name."

Buwahahahahaaa! He has done a good enough job of that on his own!

Scott Tatum/Jacksonville FL said...

Oh little Jimmy Rogers, you need to get your head out of the sand that Butch aka Ergun brought with him to Brewton Parker from his time training in "...the ways of Jihad..." back in his youth.

With your lack of ability to scour the internet for the 99 out of 100 stories exposing Butch's lies, your "degree" (in quotes for good reason!) from BP will only allow you a position for which we will all hear you say "Do you want fries with your order?"!

Katie said...

And... we wonder why unbelievers look at us with eyes that say "If this is biblical Christianity, I want no part of it."

Imagine the leadership of a strong denomination is comprised of liars, manipulators, and thieves.

Come Lord Jesus.

Neptune said...

Have any of the locals down at BPC noticed how little time that Caner actually spends in town? BPC has a 4-day week and Caner definitely takes advantage of it.

He seems to fly to Texas 'bout every other weekend. Plus, during the week, he seems to be boot-scooting all over the place.

No wonder Caner doesn't have time to develop the educational side of BPC. He's too busy tweeting his road trips and traveling from church to church, developing his inner comedian.

By the way, has anyone seen his wife?

Debbie Kaufman said...

Stephen: I am not referring to Ergun and conscience. Sadly the two words do not presently fit together in the same sentence.

Dr. Jupiter said...

BPC is a school long dependent on recruiting athletes who want to continue to "live the dream" following high school, but lack more than a little bit with their vertical, and will forever be a step or two or three behind, even at the D-III level.

BPC solves their problem. Why? Their best shot and only shot is in a small school program. That, plus discounted tuition and open enrollment, translated as "student has the ability to fog a mirror", keeps the 'Lil Choo Choo chugging along. No great shakes here. That fits the description of more than a few " Education in a Christian Environment" small schools.

Converting fantasy basketball players, anxious soccer stars and wrestlers seeking anything round and hung on a ribbon into spiritual green berets should be a show worth watching. I'll stay tuned.

82 SACS recommendations.

Prediction: Actually, this is a slam dunk. :-) BPC has whittled their mind-boggling 82 SACS recommendations down to 4. It has taken years. All accomplished pre-Caner. Those remaining are financial in nature and have been answered by Randy Minton pre-Caner, pre-Minton canning.

All that to say this: SACS will continue BPC on probation or return the school to full accreditation.

Why? These are hard times for small schools. SACS is not going to date their girl for all these years and then leave her at the altar. Caner will get the credit. The trustees don't understand how schools operate and have little concern regarding how schools acquire or keep their drivers license.

SACS knows BPC is at best a Jr. College; or, in fact, more of an academy, but they are not going to jilt her now.


Neptune said...

Can someone please tell me why the BPC Administration page (as of 1:30 a.m. EST) still claims Internal Server Error? It has shown an error since Lumpkins has taken over. Maybe that's subliminal??

http://www.bpc.edu/administration/administration.htm

Anonymous said...

WAAAA WAAAA WAAAA! LOL What kind of "kitty" would talk like that. Or even worse, "preach" like that.

Stephen said...

I see. I often miss sarcasm.

Stephen said...

I see. I often miss sarcasm.

An Attorney said...

Jim Rogers,

Caner does not have a good name, that is the only reason he cannot be defamed. He did that to himself by lying to many churches, thousands (?) of Christians and teenagers, the Marines, etc., etc. He is at best a comedian and actor, playing the roles of an ex-jihadist and preacher. If he were to teach a legitimate course for which he has skills, it would be in a theater department.

Tony Samples said...

I just want to say that there are altars in the Bible. Genesis 35:1 God instructs Jacob to go to Bethel and "make there an altar unto God." The altar is the place we meet God and see Him work in our lives. Whether or not an altar call or repentance will fix accreditation or not, we need an old fashioned Holy Ghost revival where God's people get right with Him and then they will be right with each other.

Tony Samples

Dr Jupiter said...

Update of my March 12, 2014 BPC - SACS prediction. All bets are off.

1. Why? BPC has exhausted all "continue on probation " options from SACS.

2. The next SACS visit is scheduled for April 22, 2014. It will be do or die. Pass or Fail.

3. How do I know? Simple. I located the SACS Disclosure Statement Regarding the Status of Brewton-Parker College Issued June 27, 2013.

4. Specifically, according to the above listed SACS Disclosure Statement, there are only two options remaining for BPC. Neither are related to the possibility of probation. "(1) reaffirm and remove the institution from Probation without a report or with a Fifth Year Follow-Up Report and (2) remove the institution from membership with the Commission on Colleges. "

5. According to the June 27, 2013 disclosure statement, the areas of concern: BPC "failed to demonstrate compliance with Core Requirement 2.11.1 (Financial resources), Comprehensive Standard 3.10.1 (Financial stability), Comprehensive Standard 3.10.3 (Control of Finances), and Federal Requirement 4.7 (Title IV program responsibilities) of the Principles of Accreditation."

5. The immediate impact, should BPC lose accreditation. Without a US Department of Education (USDOE) recognized accreditation, BPC will lose access to federal dollars in the area of student aid.

6. The drama: Will SACS hold their nose and go with "reaffirm and remove the institution from Probation with a Fifth Year Follow-Up Report or remove the institution from membership?

7. Depends. It depends on the GBC by way of BPC making SACS believe that, win, lose or draw, the GBC will pump money enough into the institution over a period of time longer than five years, something on the order of ten, for it to even get a nod in what will inevitably only be a stay of execution.

Note: The recent piddling grants in the $100,000 to $150,000 range are only window dressing. They account for nothing in regard to the actual cost of operating BPC. The deferred maintenance alone -translated, we've let the place run down - is staggering. The last two grants, regardless of what they take to the bottom line, will not cover the yearly salaries and expense accounts of Caner, Lumpkins and Scott.

The question not for SACS, but for the GBC. What is the Department of Education money worth?

SACS will have this one wrapped up by the end of June 2014.

P.S. How would you like to know you were going to seek an AgraBusiness degree taught in part by a professor with an Executive MBA whose business history was in the area of managing the BPC book store?

Anonymous said...

I looked at BPC's catalog and a number of the faculty in the Dept. of Education only have Education Specialist degrees as their terminal degree.....yet the college calls them " doctor"......big difference between Ed.D. And Ed.S. trust me, my mother received her Ed.S. In the 1970s was quick to correct anyone who called her " doctor."
Makes me wonder what kind of wooden axle college this happens to be?

Dr. Jupiter said...

Anonymous,

RE: Ed.D., Ed.S. and the moniker "Dr"

1. May your mom's tribe increase. Education, to be that, must first, last and always be a function of integrity. Clearly, she was at the head of the class!

2. "… wooden axle college…" Excellent description of more than just a few. Marketing, image building, and shaving a corner here and there to make those quarterly numbers work has affected higher education as much, or even more than it has any other institution. Religious jargon covers a multitude of sins.

Appearance is everything. Substance, well, not so much. "Let the buyer beware" applies to all things to include so called Christian Higher Education. For example - Take a drive through the BPC campus. They are careful to maintain the street side, not so quick in other areas. Why Caner allows trash to collect around the perimeter of the pond at the heart of the inner campus is a puzzle. (Dude, rent a mower. Give someone fifty bucks to cut the grass/weeds) We will talk about the condemned dorm later.

While we are on the subject of clean up, ignore the face of Saliba Chapel long enough, and it will resemble an abandoned automotive plant in Detroit. Mr. President, that is not patina you're looking at - it is mold.

P.S. Anon. Ask BPC what the first time pass rate is for their Education graduates who take (required if you teach in GA), the GA State Boards. Even in GA, you get three shots and then you have to sit down. Receiving an Education Degree from BPC or any other school should make passing the State Board a slam dunk. Ask them.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Jupiter,
I spoke to Mom this morning, she's still with us, and doing well...In the process she and I were discussing the SBC college, East Texas Baptist. The joke is that the motto for girl students is, " a ring by Spring or your tuition cheerfully refunded."
The school district I retired from was notorious for hiring East Texas Baptist grads, and we always had to either teach them HOW to teach, or worse yet, their subject matter.
They hired a kid to teach biology who didn't know the functions of the kidneys, liver, or pancreas....ETBU grad.....they finally fired him because he couldn't pass the Texas Skills Exam...( he had a biology degree.)

Anonymous said...

This is just plain scary. On so many levels. Academically, intellectually, ethically, and spiritually. Not to mention the stewardship aspect, or just the pure dumbth of people making these hiring decisions.

Seriously scary - that this CAN EVEN happen, that it influences those who sit under it, and that there is no more of an outcry than someone tendering a resignation from a board.

And we wonder why the govt wants to be all up in education.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Stephen: To further clarify I was referring to Jeff Dickerson not Ergun Caner.

Anonymous said...

1. At no time, either now or "in the old days", did BPC have 82 recommendations from SACS. 20 was the number handed down in December 2010; all but four have been resolved and, based on the work of those in the last days of the Simoneaux Administration, those four WERE well on the road to removal. Now? Anybody's guess is ????
2. The "Dr." title added to those with the Ed.S. is a fiction imposed by Timothy Searcy, VP for Academic Services. Remember that Searcy got Louisiana College in all kinds of SACS trouble before bolting to BPC in summer of 2012. He has "awarded" that title to more than just people in Education. Check out the Catalog -- which features, by the way, a very LARGE color picture of Searcy, himself, right up front. Information that might be needed by parents and students? WAAAY in the back of the Searcy Catalogs.
3. With reference to the Executive MBA now in the Business Division: check recent catalog text and note that Searcy has awarded her another degree: the MBA. Searcy even had STUDENTS teaching courses in the fall...go figure. And remember that Searcy represents himself as THE go-to man on SACS accreditation issues and strategic planning.
4. Dr Scott running anything in academics? Oops... I meant, of course, Billy Sunday running anything in academics? Scott has quite a reputation in the local communities -- loud-mouth to bully to Barney Fife -- but nothing related to academic excellence or even Christian behavior.
5. Finally, given that Emir Caner PAID Simoneaux's salary to go to BPC in the first place, and given the "grinnin' and back-slappin' " shot of Simoneaux and Ergun Caner upon Caner's becoming Pres of BPC, does anyone really believe that Simoneaux was anything but a place holder for good old Butch???

Anonymous said...

Will SACS yank BP's accreditation? No way. They will "have mercy" on the College and let them continue on their academically dishonest ways.

Maybe Butch and Tim WANT BP to lose accreditation?? Then Butch's brother can "save" (sorry about that Baptist term here) BP and bring it under his wing at Truett???

Dr. Jupiter said...

Anonymous

RE: BPC, ETBU and the myth of "Strong Education in a Supportive Christian Environment."

I'm glad your Mom is doing well. I would imagine from her perspective that "education" today is anything but …..

Retention Issues:
Small schools, and especially open enrollment schools that have failed like BPC, have a tough time with retention. Sooooo…. what do we do? To keep the doors open, admit all who apply. Once enrolled, grades are inflated to keep them there.

Tons of these kids will have transcripts with the inscription "continued on probation" repeated semester after semester. Ask BPC how many years from a student's first semester of enrollment to graduation.

Ask C.B. Scott how many students that he has to go to in the dorms to get them out of bed…..to get to class.

Caner's religious pronouncement regarding "life at the altar" will lead to the classroom taking care of itself, is sad.
What a 19 year-old hears is, "If I make enough trips to the altar and sleep with my chemistry book under my pillow, I will learn the periodic table."

BPC, like an alcoholic, has once again made someone else responsible for its future. In this case, SACS.
They know what BPC is. They know what BPC is not.

My guess is, they will give them a pass the only way they can now, given SACS policy. Lift probation with a five year report. To do otherwise will be a financial disaster for the school. BPC, like the alcoholic, forced someone else to save them.

To use the name of God in this situation is to take His name in vain. But, Caner the Grand Poopah, will. What else could he do? But, he knows better.

Anonymous said...

This story has been picked up at http://talkbaptistcolleges.com/index.php?topic=20.0

Good work here.

Mark said...

I don't know: I have been trying to locate concerns Independent Baptists had expressed about Ergun Caner when he visited their realm, but I believe there were similar concerns expressed. Right is right and wrong is wrong and Elmer Gantry is Elmer Gantry and it doesn't matter what stripe of Baptist you are. It is a sad reality we are even having this discussion.

Anonymous said...

Dr Jupiter,
Mom left an administrative job shortly after her Ed.S. and returned to a 5th grade classroom. She doesn't have much good to say about anyone in any form of administration.
She did 40 years in education, I could only stomach 30. The topic of the day when we get together always turns education.....as Mom always says..." Aren't you glad you're out?"

Lynn123 said...

I've been hearing about this need for revival since the 60's. Have you ever wondered why God's not sent one?

gsethdunn said...

I was your age once and I thought rhetoric like that of Caner was good.

Now, I am older. I've studied God's word more. I've seen the church dwindle. I am watching society faulted.

One day, I hope you'll understsnd why Jeff Dickerson did what he did.

Anonymous said...

Thank you, MIke Simoneaux, for holding down the fort of un-christian Christian tenets....aka, Baptist "theology" -- YOu will not be forgotten for either your Christian protestations or you lies.

Dr. Jupiter said...

If you throw Brewton-Parker's long running fiasco into the hopper with the Shorter University issues, it really looks like SACS is more interested in accrediting these institutions than the institutions are in having SACS accreditation.

It's simple.

1. Host the SACS visit.
2. Receive the recommendations.
3. File reports.
4. Accept a Warning or a Probation or whatever as many times as they are passed out.
5. File more reports.
6. Host another visit. This time from a "Special Committee."
7. Receive more recommendations.
8. File even more reports.
9. Be reaffirmed. All the while, basically doing exactly what you want to. Sweet.

SACS accreditation to this Georgia pair is clearly little more than access to Federal dollars.


Ephesians 511 Blog said...

Brewton-Parker College

Accreditation?

How can an institution have accreditation when they have no credibility?

Really?

Neptune said...

Personally, I think SACS should give these Georgia Baptist colleges exactly what they want - no accreditation. If you read the first three paragraphs of the following link (from 2012), it kinda sums it up as to "what is going on".

http://saveourshorter.com/category/brewton-parker-college/

This is another replay of what Southern Baptist Fundamentalists have been attempting to do for 40 years. They completed the Fundamentalist takeover at the SBC; and now, these struggling Georgia Baptist colleges are receiving the same "takeover treatment".

However, this is like "crumbs on the table" for these Fundamentalists, because the really good schools like Mercer in Georgia and Baylor in Texas disconnected quite a few years ago.

I fully believe that the Mike Simoneaux, plus the Emir and Ergun Caner appointments are part of a bigger plan to completely restructure these colleges into small indoctrination centers.

SACS is being really nice to people who honestly don't care about having a quality institution. Shorter, BPC and Truett-McConnell have obviously shown that indoctrination is more important than a good education.

WishIhadknown said...

“What will happen in June 2014? The SACSCOC Board of Trustees will consider the accreditation status of Brewton-Parker College following review of financial statements, a Third Monitoring Report submitted by the institution addressing the standards cited above, and the report of a Special Committee that will visit the institution in spring 2014. The Board will have the following options: (1) reaffirm and remove the institution from Probation without a report or with a Fifth Year Follow-Up Report and (2) remove the institution from membership with the Commission on Colleges for failure to comply with the standards. Commission staff will not speculate on what decision might be made by the Commission’s Board in June 2014.”

Source: Disclosure Statement Regarding the Status of
BREWTON-PARKER COLLEGE
Mount Vernon, Georgia
Issued June 27, 2013, by SACS Commission on Colleges

The above lists the only two outcomes, there are no more chances.
The folks at Brewton Parker must learn to refer to SACS as SACSCOC. SACSCOC is very strict about this. SACS is not the accrediting body.

Anonymous said...

For all of you inerrantists and people who claim to believe it ALL:

Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. Genesis 7:5-7

Yeah, I believe that a man lived to be over 600 years old and that he had a son, Shem, when he was over 500 years old.

Amen! I believe all of it. No problem. "And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. (KJV)"

Anonymous said...

"Amen! I believe all of it. No problem. "And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. (KJV)"

So, how did the TROLL get through and post another idiotic comment?

I would point out how inconsistent it is to believe that God created the universe, but is then not able to cause a man to live a long life, but it's just so obvious.

Try turning your brain on before typing next time.

Mark said...

2 Corinthians 4:18. Inerrancy will forever remain a hot button topic within denominations and within individuals. I struggle with issues Anonymous brings up, but I always come back to the conclusion that what is written in the Bible is true. And if I question one part of Scripture, it opens the door to question other sections of Scripture. Pretty soon the Bible melts away into nothingness, and become just another great book of fiction. I understand Anonymous's belief because I engage with people who share his belief. I just don't agree with his view. The topic of this blog is Ergun Caner. Ergun Caner, whose life story has some inconsistencies. Perhaps Mr. Caner deceived himself into believing his own lie. People do this all the time. It would behoove him to come clean if this is the truth. He and his friends and enemies would be happier.

Anonymous said...

"I would point out how inconsistent it is to believe that God created the universe, but is then not able to cause a man to live a long life, but it's just so obvious." "Try turning your brain on before typing next time."
__________________________________

God is "able" according to the parameters WE have attributed to him. But speaking of turning on your brain, please use common sense. No one lives that long, and never has, and never will. Life expectancies were SHORTER in ancient times, and even just 20 years ago. God CAN also heal autistic children, stop children from being born with Down Syndrome, raise the dead, etc., etc. according to OUR definition of him. He can also make us and himself defy the laws of gravity he put in place. But he doesn't and hasn't. And when we read nonsensical, unbelievable, irrational accounts in the bible, we need to "turn on our brains" and admit that some of the stories are made up, copied from earlier legends, and are not true and are not necessary for salvation. Otherwise we are easily deceived by wolves in sheep's clothing.

Yes, I believe God created the universe. No, I don't believe he speaks to megachurch pastors and gives them visions to maintain their premises better and to build new buildings and hire more staff. That ability to discern truth from fiction keeps me from being conned and deceived by God's man. Get it? And God also could have made the sun stand still as it was revolving around the earth so the Israelites could fight a war longer. But he didn't. (The Earth revolves around the sun by the way.) And he could have made an animal talk. But he has chosen not to. Get real.

Trolley said...

So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.
Joshua 10:12-14 (in Context)
________________________________

I believe it ALL! Who do I make my tithe check payable to?

Anonymous said...

"God is "able" according to the parameters WE have attributed to him."

How did you come to this conclusion?

"No one lives that long, and never has, and never will."

How could you possibly know that? Men have been waling the earth for millions of years. Are you claiming to have knowledge of the life expectancy of man for that entire period of time?

When someone is completely sure of something that is impossible for them to know, it makes me wonder.

"He can also make us and himself defy the laws of gravity he put in place. But he doesn't and hasn't."

Can you say begging the question?




Anonymous said...

"And when we read nonsensical, unbelievable, irrational accounts in the bible, we need to "turn on our brains" and admit that some of the stories are made up"

Please show evidence for your claim. Which stories are made up and how do we know?

"And God also could have made the sun stand still as it was revolving around the earth so the Israelites could fight a war longer. But he didn't. (The Earth revolves around the sun by the way.) And he could have made an animal talk. But he has chosen not to. Get real."

Lots of bold claims with zero evidence and stop using cliches.

Dr. Jupiter said...

O.K. FBC Jax Watchdog Dude. Clearly, thread creep has become thread crash. We need a new screed to tear off on. Play like this is the Wittenberg Door. Nail something up. :-)

Failing that. Play like your next post is a Rorschach test. Type the word "Caner" in the middle of a blank page and let's see what happens.

Mark said...

The doctrine of inerrancy is a difficult topic. Young age creationism is a doctrinal standard amongst conservative evangelicals, yet go back 75 years and William Bell Riley was harmonizing the age of the earth with the age gap . Each day represented a gap in time that was considerably longer than 24 hours. Prominent Princeton theologian Benjamin Warfield accepted theistic evolution. Even now, with narrower parameters of what is inerrancy, you never hear the same opinion from conservative theologian or pastor to conservative theologian or pastor. I prefer the word infallible to inerrancy in that the substance of the Word of God never fails. One matter that is without question is that I hope Ergun Caner comes clean with his deception, possible self-deception. He would make everyone, including himself happy. It feels so much better to tell the truth .

Trolley said...

I understand Anonymous's belief because I engage with people who share his belief. I just don't agree with his view. The topic of this blog is Ergun Caner. Ergun Caner, whose life story has some inconsistencies.
_________________________________
My point exactly. When we, as a people, accept everything as true and inerrant, even when our common sense and real life experience screams at us that it is false...how in the world are we to challenge or questions God's man when we see similarly obvious inconsistencies and lies? We can't. We have become like dumb sheep, unable or unwilling to think for ourselves. It is then that we believe that creator God told some preacher he wants him to fix up the buildings, build new buildings, and hire more staff. We are too easily manipulated. Believing that animals talked, and that men lived to be over 900 years old, and that the earth stopped rotating on its axis, and the moon stopped revolving around the earth, are just a few of hundreds of such nonsense that we claim we believe it all.

Trolley said...

When someone is completely sure of something that is impossible for them to know, it makes me wonder.

March 20, 2014 at 2:08 PM
__________________________________

Exactly. That is what I was trying to say. Couldn't have said it more concisely myself. And in case you don't see the obvious, isn't that exactly what your religious beliefs consist of?

Trolley said...

"He can also make us and himself defy the laws of gravity he put in place. But he doesn't and hasn't."

Can you say begging the question?

March 20, 2014 at 2:08 PM
_________________________________

Are you making the argument, in trying to defend your narrow beliefs, that laws of gravity are defied. And that this is believable? Is there anything you wouldn't believe? No matter the laws of nature, science, and observable fact over the centuries or recorded history?

Trolley said...

I believe it all. Including Ergun Caner and the pastor who said God told him to raise millions for building projects. And I believe in witches and summoning the dead to talk with them, because I believe ALL the bible or none of it. Amen? Amen!

Now Samuel was dead,...When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.” “There is one in Endor,” they said. Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” “Bring up Samuel,” he said.
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.” “What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. I Samuel, Chapter 28

Anonymous said...

This thread has turned nutso.

New topic please!

Mark said...

Wow! Discuss Ergun Caner and the issue turns to infallibility of Scripture. Next question is what does Ergun Caner have to do with how I or anyone else view the Bible? Are you implying that conservative evangelicals have become lockstep followers who don't question, and that conservative evangelicals are more prone to unethical behavior because they take the Word more literally?

Anonymous said...

Are you implying that conservative evangelicals have become lockstep followers who don't question, and that conservative evangelicals are more prone to unethical behavior because they take the Word more literally?
__________________________________

Absolute yes to the first question. Absolutely not to the second one. It is easier for Ergun Caner (and pastors) to con and deceive people who will believe anything no matter what.

Mark said...

Baptists are full of contradictions. We radically espouse Priesthood of the Believer, yet some of us have that motto to "touch not the anointed." This constant tension results in church splits or in blogs. In corollary we were among the first of radical Protestants ( I believe before Methodists) to require a theological education for our clergy. We constantly have a tension between order and disorder within our communities. The saying that where there are two Baptists there are likely to be three different opinions is more than a humorous observation. My brother is a pastor, so I have seen much of this from every perspective. And I have left a mega church because I felt a pastor was exceeding his biblical authority in church discipline and was way too political is God's Own Party. So I have been friend and foe to clergy. So this theological conservative doesn't totally disagree with you. Baptist infighting is both a strength and a weakness. It is a strength because it proves we are a caring people, but it can also be a weakness because it lacks In love. I hope Georgia Baptists continue some sort of debate on the Ergun Caner controversy for their own sake. I realize certain clergy would like this this to go away. It really shouldn't go away.

Trolley said...

15 Finding a fresh jawbone of a donkey, he grabbed it and struck down a thousand men.16 Then Samson said,“With a donkey’s jawbone I have made donkeys of them.With a donkey’s jawbone.I have killed a thousand men.

This sounds like one of Ergun Caner's stories. But I believe it. It makes sense to me. If I believe in a creator, then I have to believe this too, amen? Amen!

Anonymous said...

"This sounds like one of Ergun Caner's stories. But I believe it. It makes sense to me. If I believe in a creator, then I have to believe this too, amen? Amen!"

Your sarcasm is only effective if you dismiss any possibility of miracles.

You say you believe that God created the universe - which contradicts that position.

Anonymous said...

"Wow! Discuss Ergun Caner and the issue turns to infallibility of Scripture. Next question is what does Ergun Caner have to do with how I or anyone else view the Bible?"

Because the TROLL attempts to turn every thread into this issue.

He is either purposely being obtuse or has no concept of hermeneutics.

Trolley said...

The problem is I do understand hermeneutics, and I have "taken it up with the book." Caner is a fraud, but "god's men" can't see it. The men of God teach and preach nonsense, yet the sheeple don't see it. Why? Because they are proud. Proud that they believe it all or none of it. Proud of their belief the bible IS truth, and doesn't just contain some truth. They cannot discern between truth and fiction. Which is where Ergun Caner comes in. Is this not right on topic of this post and Caner's "vision" for BP?

Why can't I KNOW that God created the Universe by what I see, my common sense and my logic; and not believe in miracles for the same reasons? Yes, God created the universe. No, he doesn't make men fly, animals talk, the earth stop spinning on its axis, etc. Men made that stuff up. I don't believe it. Do YOU? Really? Why?

Trolley said...

Another illustration: I believe creator God can heal everyone. I also KNOW that he doesn't. Do I need to defend how I know this? And you call ME the troll?

Anonymous said...

"Is this not right on topic of this post and Caner's "vision" for BP?"

No - this thread is not about biblical inerrancy. Has nothing to do with it at all.

People who agree (or don't agree) with that teaching can see that Caner was lying by the evidence.

Why is this so complicated for you?

Anonymous said...

"Why can't I KNOW that God created the Universe by what I see, my common sense and my logic; and not believe in miracles for the same reasons?"

Because creating the universe was a miracle. If you don't understand that as a contradiction, I can't help you friend.

Anonymous said...

"No, he doesn't make men fly, animals talk, the earth stop spinning on its axis, etc."

You make the claim - you defend it.
So far you have not offered one shred of evidence.

Anonymous said...

"Another illustration: I believe creator God can heal everyone. I also KNOW that he doesn't. Do I need to defend how I know this? And you call ME the troll?"

Yes that is another illustration of bad logic TROLL.

Trolley said...

Those last 4 responses show exactly how stubborn and irrational and illogical some Christians can be. Wanting proof that God doesn't heal everybody? Really? Wanting me to defend the statement that men can't fly and the earth doesn't stop spinning on its axis. Really? Those statements need to be proven to you? No wonder Caner is believed and loved by so many, no matter what. And no wonder pastors can keep preaching that God gave them a vision for you to give more money to them. They know people like this will just say "prove that God didn't give him that vision." LOL, but sad really. Time to move on to another blog topic rather than keep arguing about whether animals talk and whether the laws of gravity don't apply to earth at times. I would rather argue with a brick wall. Thanks for reminding us all of just how brain damaged some Christians are.

Anonymous said...

To Trolley
You have displayed a considerable contempt for the Bible.

Romans 3:3-4a
For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar.

However you’ve claimed to believe in a creation that you can see.

I hope you realize that will not excuse you from rejecting the rest of God’s Word.

Romans 1:20-21
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Most importantly, Jesus Christ the Son of God, shed His blood and died for sinners, and rose from the dead.

Repent of your unbelief and believe and trust in Jesus Christ for your salvation.

Sincerely, Yuppie Puppy

Trolley said...

Yuppie Puppy,

That explains all my questions. Thanks. I now accept talking donkeys, the sun standing still, witches summoning up the dead, and everything else in the Bible. I also believe everything Ergun Caner says, and everything that my pastor says God told him to tell us. Thanks for sharing what you read in a book and have been taught in your culture and life. I'm heading over to the Morman's blogs and Jehovah's Witnesses blogs and Muslim blogs to see what kind of similar logic they have for me to believe. Maybe my logic and reason and observations have blinded to me the truth of their faith also.

Anonymous said...

"Those last 4 responses show exactly how stubborn and irrational and illogical some Christians can be."

No, actually they show that you can't defend your assertions.

You are good at one thing TROLL.

Making dogmatic assertions with no defensible arguments.

Of course that displays no particular level of education.

Just a willingness to be a blow-hard.

Anonymous said...

"Time to move on to another blog topic rather than keep arguing about whether animals talk and whether the laws of gravity don't apply to earth at times. I would rather argue with a brick wall. Thanks for reminding us all of just how brain damaged some Christians are."

LOL!
You want to move on to a new topic. That's classic since you seem to be obsessed with this topic. Well until someone points out that you can't back up your assertions. Then you are ready to move on. Sort of self-serving isn't it?

Oh it gets better. After making that statement you leave another comment on the same subject. LOL!

So you can't defend your ridiculous claims and then we can't trust your sincerity either?

Thanks for reminding us how vacuous, condescending and shallow your belief system is.

Oh and by the way, an insult is not a cogent argument.

Anonymous said...

"Maybe my logic and reason and observations have blinded to me the truth of their faith also."

Statement from someone who hasn't looked into the "facts" of those religions. No comparison.

Anonymous said...

"I now accept talking donkeys, the sun standing still, witches summoning up the dead, and everything else in the Bible."

Illogical statement from someone who believes that God created the universe.

The creation of the universe was a miracle. Much greater than the ones you list above.

So it would be illogical to believe that God couldn't do those things.

If you believe that God could do those things and chose not to, then you would need to show some evidence to make your case.

You obviously can't do that because you were not there at the time.

So the best you could possibly do is to state that you don't think it is likely that those things happened.

To state that you know that they didn't happen is both arrogant and ignorant.

The problem with stating that those things were unlikely to have happened is that the Bible has a track record of being correct.

For example, many Bible critics boldly asserted that Pilate never lived but was only a Biblical allegory for Roman law.

That was until they found a plaque with his name and title in the 1960's.

Arce said...

There is very little in the NT that can be challenged as impossible, only unlikely. But there are things cited in the OT that appear to violate physics, chemistry, etc., and for which there is no evidence of it happening after dedicated searching by those propounding those events as literal.

One has to remember that the OT was not put in writing at the time, but later, from the oral tradition, the scrolls were destroyed during the wars and the conquest of Jerusalem and all of Israel and Judah, and were recreated again from oral tradition and memory. Many portions show the characteristics of oral creation and descent traditions of tribal peoples.

I would rather treat the OT stories like parables that can be teaching resources, without having to be literal. Keep in mind that God, in the person of Jesus, taught in parables, so why not in the OT books that are called 'history'.

Trolley said...

Last word from Trolley: I didn't say God COULDN'T do those things. I just said I don't BELIEVE that He wanted to, needed to, or actually DID do those things. You apparently, actually do believe this stuff. Mitt Romney actually believes in magic underwear. Jehovah's witnesses actually believe in Joseph's Smiths teachings. Muslims actually believe the Koran. Catholics believe in the saints and Virgin Mary and have a Pope. I don't. I admit it. So what? Does that mean everything they believe is wrong. No. But certainly I can't agree to ALL of it. But I don't argue with them over what they claim is divine truth. Like them, you are the one making dogmatic statements of truth, yet are accusatory of me for saying my statements need to be proved. Ironic, but I understand why you take the position you do. Enjoy your cult like thinking. I hope it works for you. :)

Anonymous said...

"Last word from Trolley:"

For real this time? Not like the last time where you said you didn't want to discuss this issue any more (an issue that you originated) from a post that was completely unrelated.

Uh-huh. I'll believe it when I see it TROLL.

Anonymous said...

"I didn't say God COULDN'T do those things. I just said I don't BELIEVE that He wanted to, needed to, or actually DID do those things."

Unfortunately for you TROLL, there is a written record of what you said and it doesn't match up with your words above.

Compare the dogmatic, black and white, proclamations below to the the back-peddling above:

"He can also make us and himself defy the laws of gravity he put in place. But he doesn't and hasn't."

"Yes, God created the universe. No, he doesn't make men fly, animals talk, the earth stop spinning on its axis, etc. Men made that stuff up."

"No one lives that long, and never has, and never will."

"I believe creator God can heal everyone. I also KNOW that he doesn't."

See anything in those statements about you not personally believing that God did those things? Nope.

You should have removed your previous comments (like Caner tried to remove his videos) before changing your story.

Anonymous said...

"You apparently, actually do believe this stuff."

Now we are assuming. You know what happens when you do that.

I actually haven't stated my position and therefore am not required to defend it.

You have, in black and white fundamentalistic terms, even though you tried to deny it.

Anonymous said...

"Muslims actually believe the Koran. Catholics believe in the saints and Virgin Mary and have a Pope. I don't. I admit it. So what? Does that mean everything they believe is wrong. No. But certainly I can't agree to ALL of it."

This might be best example of bad logic and confused thinking I have ever encountered in one paragraph.

You aren't just comparing apples and oranges but completely contradictory belief systems and then drawing an unrelated conclusion.

Anonymous said...

"But I don't argue with them over what they claim is divine truth."

I'm not going to come out and say that I don't believe you, but if that were true I would think that you wouldn't be here arguing with people about what many believe to be divine truth.

Anonymous said...

"Like them, you are the one making dogmatic statements of truth, yet are accusatory of me for saying my statements need to be proved. Ironic, but I understand why you take the position you do. Enjoy your cult like thinking. I hope it works for you."

This little paragraph has it all. A straw man argument, followed by a false accusation, followed by an ad hominem attack.

Even though I have not stated my position (only asked you to defend yours), you claim that I have (straw man argument) and claim that it is ironic. It would be if it were only true.

So how is asking you to defend your dogmatic statements in any way accusatory? False accusation.

Then without knowing anything about me (still haven't stated my position) you call me an ugly name. Ad hominem attack.

I understand that you are frustrated because you can't defend your position, but attacking me personally will not help prove your point.

I would say that it would have the opposite effect.

Anonymous said...

I am responding a bit late; however, I live in this area, and there are problems that have not been addressed to date about BPC.

I'm sure SACS is no aware that many of the faculty do not have Ph.D.s and are in no fashion qualified to teach in the subject areas to which they have been assigned. How can a Ph.D. in communications chair a business division?

The academic programs are very weak and EVERY student passes. There appears to be more time, money, and effort expended to fund the athletic programs. (Four new coaches were just hired-July 23, 2014, The Advance Newspaper.) Where is the education?

BPC could be a wonderful Baptist College if a president and other administrators were hired who could actually administer the institution in a professional manner. Hiring a Muslim? Does he really have the background to administer an educational institution? It would not be important to me that he has converted, but where is the proof that he has had a successful career in higher education. Based upon what I have read, he does not. A Muslim running Baptist College. He was fired from Liberty University (Oklahoma Baptist News).

The we have Dr. Simoneaux, who is about 110 years old, who was brought back to serve as the provost. Dr.Ron Melton, the previous provost is still at BPC serving as a chairperson. He has a proven track record, and is respected by the faculty.

I hope BPC can survive without SACS accreditation since the college does contribute to the local economy and it would be a great loss to not have a four year college in this area. I hope Georgia Southern, or one of the other state colleges/universities will open a site in Vidalia, or Mt.Vernon, GA.

Last statement, to parents, if you have a student at BPC, please be aware that the loss of accreditation may result in another educational institution refusing to take BPC credit. It is expensive to education our children, and you want the to have a degree that is acknowledged nationally.

Anonymous said...

Brewton-Parker College is not going to win a law suit against the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. If you have a child enrolled there, rethink it. If a college is not accredited, it is likely that college credit earned there will not transfer to another institution.

Anonymous said...

A friend referred me to this blog today. I caution the parents of students attending Brewton-Parker College,or those considering BPC to investigate what it means to lose accreditation. This is not a minor problem, it is very serious and will most likely close the school.