"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Tuesday, April 26, 2011

You, Your Pastor, Non-Tithers, NIV-Readers, and the Will of God

In the spirit of wanting to educate my readers at every opportunity, I am providing the visual aid to the left so that Watchdog readers know where they stand in relation to the will of God, their pastor, non-tithers, and everyone else.

The large circle is the "permissive will of God", the inner circle in which the pastor resides, is the "perfect will of God".

This came from the website "Stuff Fundies Like" (definitely need to add this to your Google Reader list), so visit the site (direct link to the article here) and read the commandments concerning the will of God for your life.

On a side note: I hope you like my new outfit I'm sporting in my new profile picture. Lately I've been reading the "Fashion Fridays" posts over at Maurilio's blog where he gives fashion tips for males (I'm being serious now), and decided to upgrade my wardrobe to a seersucker suit, monogrammed cuffs and big honkin' cufflinks...and a Rolex watch underneath my cuffs. When I read that Maurilio prefers his genuine Rolex to those fakes he bought overseas, I became very jealous and invested in a genuine Rolex. Just trying to keep up with the mega pastors and their "generosity consultants"!

83 comments:

Anonymous said...

You have to be kidding! Our tithing money goes to pay a dork like Maurilio to post fashion tips on a blog. All I have to say is I was not impressed with the dorky outfit Mac Brunson wore on Easter Sunday - the bow tie was a little to much.

Tikatu said...

Now, WD, you need to add Stuff Fundies Like to your favorites list! Sure, it's not necessarily talking about the SBC or FBCJax, but it has a lot of good commentary (mostly with a heaping helping of humor) on a lot of the same things you talk about there.

Word verification: disco, which is where Maurilio would fit in with that outfit of his.

No One Special said...

So I checked out that site and I just purchased this shirt. Perfect state or today's Baptist mega-think.

http://www.cafepress.com/cp/moredetails.aspx?productNo=462523115&pr=F&showbleed=False&colorNo=6&tab=1&subFront=&subBack=

New BBC Open Forum said...

Stuff Christians Like is good, too.

Watchdog isn't kidding about Maurilio:

What Not to Wear at the Gym

How Good Should You Smell at Work?

Fashion Friday Dilemma: Pleats or No Pleats?

Looking Sharp in a Vest

How Men Should Wear a Scarf

Should I Wear a Hat?

What Your Tech Accessory Says About You

Men's Fashion Trends for 2011

To Iron or Not to Iron? The Rise of the Wrinkled Shirt

The Skinny Tie is Back!

How Men Should Wear a Shirt

Product + Experience = Power Brand. The Imogene+Willie Jeans Story

My Near Death Experience with Spanx for Men

Are You Ready for Cuffs, High Waters and No Socks?

Guys, What Does Your Watch Say About You?

How to Tie a Skinny Tie

Developing Your Own Fashion Sense

My Travel Fashion Strategy

Vienna Needs a New Retail Strategy

Austrian Traditional Jacket Migrates to Tennessee

Easter Sunday and the Return of the White Pants

Anonymous said...

All I have to say is I was not impressed with the dorky outfit Mac Brunson wore on Easter Sunday -the bow tie was a little to much.

When you understand that one of Mac daddys' job is the bring you in to the current age, until then you will not see the big picture.

Jon L. Estes said...

Hey Tom -

All humor aside... Where do you see yourself standing in God's will when it comes to being a leader in exposing the ugly side of ministry (as you see it)?

I am asking as I have been pouring through the beatitudes these past few weeks and really believe the life they represent for us to live is the center of God's perfect will.

I readily admit my caustic attitude of past and hopefully it stays there. I also wish to share with you that I shed many tears for you and your painful journey. From what I know, it was not fair or the right way to treat others. I also wept because of this blog and what it has become.

I admit I have added to the selfishness,maybe even stirred it up on occasion. For that I am deeply remorseful.

I do not stand in judgment of you. I do wonder how this blog fits the message of Jesus in Matthew 5. I am truly trying to discover that answer.

My heart towards you has changed and I only want the best for you.

Anonymous said...

The SBC did the Holman because they did not want to pay royalties to the NIV publisher.

Now you have the Calvinistas are promoting the "literal" bible, the ESV. (You gotta read Mark Strauss' paper on the ESV. It is great)

Actually, the TNIV and the new NIV2011 are very good translations. It is just that the ESV folks want the ignorant pew sitters and young seminarian minds full of mush to believe that when the Greek is anthropos, it is "male". They really do think most are that ignorant. And they are right!

Recommendation: Gordon Fee's, "How to Read the Bible For All It's Worth"

Anonymous said...

"I do not stand in judgment of you. I do wonder how this blog fits the message of Jesus in Matthew 5. I am truly trying to discover that answer."

Jon, Here is the problem with your question. You are asking the wrong people. Start with the celebrities, the greedy of your ilk with the title pastor and the perverts in ministry.

Instead, you start with the peasants which is quite safe for you. :o)

Anonymous said...

""I do not stand in judgment of you. I do wonder how this blog fits the message of Jesus in Matthew 5. I am truly trying to discover that answer."

Why? Seems to me you would start with those who make a living from the Gospel and if they fit the model of Matthew 5.

Does Mac fit the message of Matthew 5? Patterson? Gaines? It is no wonder you are NOT trying to discover the answer to that when it comes to any of them.

Pick on the big boys. Of course, that is not so good for your ministry career.

Tom Parker said...

Jon:

You said:"I do not stand in judgment of you. I do wonder how this blog fits the message of Jesus in Matthew 5. I am truly trying to discover that answer."

How is this not judging on your part?

Jon L. Estes said...

Tom -

I clearly stated I wonder if the blog thinking not of any one particular person but the atmosphere and stated comments. So, in no way am I judging Tom a a person.

For those wondering why I do not speak with the pastors of my ilk... I will when I have opportunity to speak to them but on here I am speaking to those here.

I do try to keep the conversation i am having with those a part of the discussion, not the focus of the discussion. I would prefer to talk to people, not about them unless it is positive.

My comments were not posted to create a debate but to ask an honest question, of myself and anyone else. If we want scripture to dictate the issue of the tithe, then shouldn't it also dictate the tone of our discussions?

Tom Parker said...

Jon:

You said:"My comments were not posted to create a debate but to ask an honest question, of myself and anyone else. If we want scripture to dictate the issue of the tithe, then shouldn't it also dictate the tone of our discussions?"

Huh?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Jon - I really would like to know, when you say:

" I also wish to share with you that I shed many tears for you and your painful journey. From what I know, it was not fair or the right way to treat others. I also wept because of this blog and what it has become."

Can you tell me, did you literally cry tears, as in weeping, for my "painful journey"? Why? How do you know it was painful? What do you know of my "journey" or my family's journey? And you actually wept because of what this blog has become? Really, what has it "become" that has caused you to get the Kleenex out, Jon?

I don't really feel like answering your questions, Jon, because I don't owe you any. I am a believer, I am a person who discerns what is happening to our churches, I see how pastors are abusing their congregations by misusing the bible, teaching false doctrines, including tithing, and I am one who writes about it. I sometimes choose to use humor or sarcasm or any other literary device I choose...and I will continue to do so until they stick me in the ground. And I'll do it in my seersucker suit, monogrammed cuffs and cufflinks, and my Rolex watch.

Anonymous said...

Jon, you can always call them. Of course they do not allow comments that are not moderated on their blogs. Unlike the peasants who allow you to pontificate here.

I am glad you admiited being a jerk. Problem is we have no idea if this cofession is real. Just last thread you were typical Jon. And now you accompany your confession with a badly veiled back door rebuke. Not very Matt 5 of you. Guess that humility thing is really hard for pastors.

Anonymous said...

Jon, why do you come here. not that I expect your answer to be honest. I would never expect that from a narcissist.

The question is rhetorical for the readers to ponder who have read your comments here over many threads.

Anonymous said...

jon was,shedding tears while he was here sparring with commenters? jon,. you need professional help. in the meantime, please quit being a pastor. you are not qualified. you are one sick phony.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Can you tell me, did you literally cry tears, as in weeping, for my "painful journey"?"

Absolutely.

"Why?"

As I was in my prayer time I believe God led me to think of this blog and my involvement. As I was praying for this I was deeply burdened for you and your shared journey. This burden for you brought me to tears.

"How do you know it was painful?"

It was my interpretation of what you specifically have shared through this blog,other loggers comments which you did not say were incorrect.

"What do you know of my "journey" or my family's journey?"

You have shared quite a bit here. This is the only place I have gotten information.

"And you actually wept because of what this blog has become?"

Yes or maybe better because of what I interpret for what it has become.

"Really, what has it "become" that has caused you to get the Kleenex out, Jon?"

My view interprets this blog as a place emotions often go unchecked in comments towards or about others. A place where winning the debate, discussion and dialog is more important than the person.

"I don't really feel like answering your questions, Jon, because I don't owe you any."

You are absolutely right. You don't owe me anything. I just asked.

"I am a believer, I am a person who discerns what is happening to our churches, I see how pastors are abusing their congregations by misusing the bible, teaching false doctrines, including tithing, and I am one who writes about it."

Yes, I believe you are and you are doing what you describe. I was just asking in part how this fit the beatitudes. Nothing more, nothing less.

"I sometimes choose to use humor or sarcasm or any other literary device I choose...and I will continue to do so until they stick me in the ground."

OK. As I stated, my heart has changed towards you and I only want the best for you.

"And I'll do it in my seersucker suit, monogrammed cuffs and cufflinks, and my Rolex watch."

OK. Be blessed. (Matthew 5).

Jon L. Estes said...

Anons - I honestly admit I have been a prideful jerk. My choice alone. As I continue living I want to be less of one each day.

It may not be easy but it the right thing to do. (Matthew 5)

Lynn said...

Hmm. Seeing a seemingly sincere apology is quite refreshing. I think it's great.

Re the will of God. That's just another way to torture those in the pew. They must worry and wonder over this mysterious will of God, trying to always figure out whether they're in or out. When you've been exposed to that all your life, it makes Calvinism quite attractive. At least you can finally relax and think it's all up to God, not you, to get you saved, keep you saved, etc. You can rest. From my understanding, Calvinists don't make themselves sick over finding God's will for their life, crying over lost souls, thinking they're required to witness constantly, etc. Sure removes a lot of burdens.

Tom Parker said...

Jon:

Sincere question. Why do you feel the need to change your approach to your blogging comments?

Jon L. Estes said...

Lynn -

Thank you for your kind word.

As far as Calvinism, I am firmly planted in that camp. My heart beats for evangelism and missions. I am not sure how fair it is to say:

"Calvinists don't make themselves sick over finding God's will for their life, crying over lost souls, thinking they're required to witness constantly, etc."

This may be true to some but the Calvinists I know are very much committed to sharing Jesus as they go through life. Believing God has elected those who will be saved does not diminish the fact he has called us to be witnesses. For a Calvinist to not witness is a direct violation of God's word. And yes, there are those who won't tell but they are not from the Calvinist camp alone.

Jon L. Estes said...

Tom -

I believe it is an issue of obedience.

Anonymous said...

Jon has subtly inserted the 'E'Word. Right out of the playbook, Jon. Your insincerity slip is showing

Anonymous said...

lynn, have you been reading Jon for 5 years? he counts on newer readers being taken in.

Tom Parker said...

Anonymous:

Please help me--what do you mean by the "E" word?

Jon L. Estes said...

"E" word? I have no clue what you are referring to.

I do understand that anyone here would question my sincerity in looking back over my past behavior. All I can do is repent and move forward seeking not to go back there.

Matthew 5

Anonymous said...

it is 'obedient' to warn of wolves, false teachers, perverts with minister titles. Of course Jon wants folks to think it is a sin. He is trying to imply that Tom is worse than the charlatans. Typical of how they protect their own.

Anonymous said...

'emotional'

It is in the playbook.

Jon L. Estes said...

"it is 'obedient' to warn of wolves, false teachers, perverts with minister titles. Of course Jon wants folks to think it is a sin. He is trying to imply that Tom is worse than the charlatans. Typical of how they protect their own."

My obedience comment was to Tom concerning his question: "Why do you feel the need to change your approach to your blogging comments?"

I am sorry you think my motive is to denigrate Tom, it is not. Again, I understand that my past comments and attitude can lead you to think such. I really want to do right. I want to to be blessed as Jesus spoke of in Matthew 5.

Anonymous said...

Okay Pastor Jon, comments & thoughts forgiven, so lets move on to another subject and get back to the real issue.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Okay Pastor Jon, comments & thoughts forgiven, so lets move on to another subject and get back to the real issue."

Great! Is living out Matthew 5 a part of being in God's perfect will? I understand the blog humor being demonstrated but the will of God is vitally important to the believer. I am sure there are people and churches out there that lineup to the picture shown. I also believe there are churches and people out there who want, as a fellowship, to be in the perfect will of God, together.

In response to the side note... I actually appreciated the fashion tips from Maurilio's blog. There are too many poorly dressed Christians walking around who could use some of these tips.

I still have my copy of "Dress for Success".

Anonymous said...

I would never focus on motives. We do not need to. Your question about the blog was obviously meant to communicate your intentions. as to tepentance....only time will tell and not much time has passed.....even then, questioning tom about matt 5 makes your claim on true repentece, tenuous

Anonymous said...

God's 'will' is one of those cliches used by many pastors to control or shame people. So, was Paul in God's will when he warned about Hy and Al in a letter for millions to read over 2000 years. Was he practising Matt 5?

According to your position, Paul was in sin to warn of wolves.

Jon L. Estes said...

"God's 'will' is one of those cliches used by many pastors to control or shame people. So, was Paul in God's will when he warned about Hy and Al in a letter for millions to read over 2000 years. Was he practising Matt 5?

According to your position, Paul was in sin to warn of wolves."

First, I never accused Tom of being in sin because of this blog. I did ask how the blog fits the message in Matt 5. I was seeking an answer, not making an accusation.

As for Paul, I do not think he was sinning but am very aware of Paul's thoughts on his being a sinner. I am so far from where Paul was with Christ that God has used Matthew 5 to bring me and my attitude back to Him. For that I am eternally grateful.

If God ever allows me to rebuke or call out specific individuals for their sin, I hope that God would see me more like Paul than what I am now. Until then I must work to use my words to edify and learn.

hopeandfaith said...

Don't you just "hunger" for Bible teaching from the pulpit? There are so many Christians who would rather be told about God...when all they have to do is pick up their Bible and know the truth themselves. Where is the empathy for the poor...the lost, unwashed as some people call them....Do you ever see them in your church? I fear if they came, they would be ostrascized....It seems churches are more interested in the people who will follow blindly and open their pockets when summoned to do so. Churches rarely let you know what the salary of the pastor is..they put all the salaries together and give you a grand total. I would urge people to stand up for accountability in financial transparency as well as speaking out on changing doctrine to suit the world.....but, then, you would be asked to leave. Sad times.

Anonymous said...

God's 'will' is one of those cliches used by many pastors to control or shame people. So, was Paul in God's will when he warned about Hy and Al in a letter for millions to read over 2000 years. Was he practising Matt 5?

According to your position, Paul was in sin to warn of wolves.

Anonymous said...

Ever notice when Jon L. Estes posts on this website (no matter what the topic happens to be), the subject always becomes Jon L. Estes?

Anonymous said...

"I do understand that anyone here would question my sincerity in looking back over my past behavior. All I can do is repent and move forward seeking not to go back there."

Perhaps it will stick this time. The last time you made such a statement, you were back in attack mode the next day.

Anonymous said...

"I do not stand in judgment of you. I do wonder how this blog fits the message of Jesus in Matthew 5. I am truly trying to discover that answer."

I do not stand in judgment of you, but I do wonder how your behavior on this blog fits the message of Matthew 5.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Ever notice when Jon L. Estes posts on this website (no matter what the topic happens to be), the subject always becomes Jon L. Estes?"

It is possible that when I post many ask personal questions as to what I posted which I gladly respond too. I am not sure that is an attempt to make it about me as much as the many questions posed lead it that way.

"I do not stand in judgment of you, but I do wonder how your behavior on this blog fits the message of Matthew 5."

Hopefully and prayerfully, my current and all future behavior will reflect Matthew 5.

"Perhaps it will stick this time. The last time you made such a statement, you were back in attack mode the next day."

You are right and I hope "it sticks" too. I covet your prayers.

Anonymous said...

"Hopefully and prayerfully, my current and all future behavior will reflect Matthew 5."

But isn't it slightly presumptuous to ask that question when you haven't been living it yourself?

Anonymous said...

"It is possible that when I post many ask personal questions as to what I posted which I gladly respond too."

Really? I seem to remember asking a number of questions about the tithe and was told that you didn't need to answer them. That was followed by a verse referencing silly questions even though they were logical follow-ups to your previous statements.

"I am not sure that is an attempt to make it about me as much as the many questions posed lead it that way."

So, its not your fault. It's everyone else.

Jon L. Estes said...

"But isn't it slightly presumptuous to ask that question when you haven't been living it yourself?"

Maybe. Yet, it is only a question.

I witness each week, not because I have arrived to any level of significance. I continue to make sinful decisions but I ask people about their thoughts on what it takes for a person to go to heaven because I care, not based upon what I have or have not done.

Dr. Drummond taught me a great lesson my first year in seminary. He taught me that I can learn something about Jesus from anyone or anything God wants to use to have me learn, if I am willing.

While in Cuba last year I learned some things about our great God from a woman preaching on a Sunday night.

Jon L. Estes said...

"So, its not your fault. It's everyone else."

No finger pointing. I don't see why anyone has to be blamed as a conversation unfolds and dialog occurs.

WishIhadknown said...

Jon, I am not sure what you are asking when you ask if the blog fits with Matthew 5. I would contend that the blog is much more “church” than any formal church. Here people are free to be open and honest and express themselves in any way they want; subject to the vagaries of Blogger. No need for formalities or airs. Need to be a jerk then be a jerk, we’ll understand. From the way some of the others go after you there does seem to be a history I am not familiar with but you appear to be patient and understanding.

Anonymous said...

Jon, I offer you a sincere thanks for sharing your heart and repentance here, even doing so repeatedly. I'll be praying for you.

Matt. 5 is a great place to start, so thanks for the encouragment on that teaching. I've recently been pointed to John 3:17, noting how John 3:16 can't be viewed alone to understand its full impact (need both the action and the context). Blessings to you.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Jon, I am not sure what you are asking when you ask if the blog fits with Matthew 5."

I shared earlier that I had been digging through the beatitudes and God dealt with me concerning them and my life lived out on this blog.

In relation to this blog, I was seeking to see how Tom found it fitting the passage. I was wanting to discover what I was missing.

"I would contend that the blog is much more “church” than any formal church."

I am sure some here would agree with you.

"Here people are free to be open and honest and express themselves in any way they want; subject to the vagaries of Blogger. No need for formalities or airs."

I am not so sure I can agree with this, Let me ponder it a while longer.

"Need to be a jerk then be a jerk, we’ll understand."

Now this one I must disagree with, as one who has been a jerk.

"From the way some of the others go after you there does seem to be a history I am not familiar with but you appear to be patient and understanding."

Thank you. It is hard to dialog here when so many posters go by anon. I don't know if there is 1 or 50. Sometimes I feel like a blindfolded man in a room with many people trying to figure out who is who and who is carrying the conversation. Just the way it is.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Jon, I offer you a sincere thanks for sharing your heart and repentance here, even doing so repeatedly. I'll be praying for you.

Matt. 5 is a great place to start, so thanks for the encouragment on that teaching. I've recently been pointed to John 3:17, noting how John 3:16 can't be viewed alone to understand its full impact (need both the action and the context). Blessings to you."

Thank you. I am amazed, in spite of me, God still loves me and continues to give me another opportunity to get it right.

Also thank you for the John 3:17 reminder.

Matt 5.

Anonymous said...

"Maybe. Yet, it is only a question."

In that case, let me ask another question. Would it bother you if I asked you how your lifestyle squared with Malachi 3:10 if I didn't tithe myself? You see, that's the problem.

Anonymous said...

"Jon, I am not sure what you are asking when you ask if the blog fits with Matthew 5."

Let me explain it to you. Jon, has seemingly changed his attitude. (I will withhold judgment because he has made this claim before just to go right back into attack mode the next day). But he has not changed his bad thinking. He still believes in "touch not mine anointed." Which means (in his incorrect interpretation) that you should never criticize a pastor even when he deserves it, and even though there is biblical precedent for it.

He was pummeled into admitting that the tithe is not for the NT, but then found a loophole in an old "preacher's saying" that has nothing to do with scripture.

"We should give more under grace than what is required under law." See if you can find that one in the Bible. Take your time. The law required 23%, was always food, and went to the poor. And, of course, that old saying contradicts 2 Corinthians 9:7. That's why the Bible is the final court of arbitration and not old preacher's sayings.

From that bad thinking, he concludes that he doesn't care if his congregation is misinformed (by his own teachings) on the tithe. Should I remind him that teachers are held to a higher standard?

In conclusion, although I do appreciate the more civil tone, I don't appreciate the continued double-talk and clinging of tradition over the clear teaching of scripture.

Jon L. Estes said...

"In that case, let me ask another question. Would it bother you if I asked you how your lifestyle squared with Malachi 3:10 if I didn't tithe myself? You see, that's the problem."

As Christians, why should we be offended if someone asks us about our life squaring with scripture? I continue to believe it is possible for clear thinking Christians who love God and want to know truth can rest on supporting the tithe.

I have started a paper on the subject of the different tithes in the OT. It is in the early stages but I am not convinced that all the tithes are still required because of what they were for. An example would be the tithe festival tithe. We do not hold the festival so we would not be bound to that tithe. Now, don't get bent out of shape, I have not even supported the above just thinking it out.

I do see the tithe as a tertiary issue, not something to divide over.

A long way to go before I get that paper off the ground, trying to get my acceptance into a THD Program.

Anonymous said...

"As Christians, why should we be offended if someone asks us about our life squaring with scripture? I continue to believe it is possible for clear thinking Christians who love God and want to know truth can rest on supporting the tithe."

Jon, this is discouraging. You are regressing. You have already admitted that the tithe is not for the NT.

Are we going to need to cover established territory again?

Jon L. Estes said...

"you should never criticize a pastor even when he deserves it, and even though there is biblical precedent for it."

My position would be to go to the pastor. There is biblical precedence for this.

I will stop there the rest of your comment came across as an attack. I don't want to put myself in a position to stumble. I hope yu understand.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Jon, this is discouraging. You are regressing. You have already admitted that the tithe is not for the NT.

Are we going to need to cover established territory again?"

I do not speak for anyone other than myself. I am not offended when someone believes differently on the tithe than I do. The tithe is not a non-negotiable doctrine.

I have set my position out clearly and some still disagree with it. I can live with that.

I have some dear Christian friends who are not Calvinists and we get along well without tying to disprove the other one. There are more important matters than this one.

Anonymous said...

"I have started a paper on the subject of the different tithes in the OT. It is in the early stages but I am not convinced that all the tithes are still required because of what they were for. An example would be the tithe festival tithe. We do not hold the festival so we would not be bound to that tithe. Now, don't get bent out of shape, I have not even supported the above just thinking it out."

I would have an easier time agreeing with you if you hadn't stated earlier that OT law is still binding on Christians today. In earlier comments you were criticizing others because they weren't honoring OT scriptures and only considered them as "historical narrative." Now you are looking for excuses so that you can do that exact same thing - because you are so desirous of holding onto your tradition.

Ignoring that inconsistency, let's say you were right. You would need to apply that same logic to the other two tithes of the OT.

Levite tithe was for men who were not allowed to own things. There is no Levite tribe today - so that tithe would also need to be abolished.

The tithe for the poor you could say was no longer necessary because the government takes care of that function.

The OT tithes also contradict 2 Corinthians 9:7.

So, in the end, I agree with you.

Anonymous said...

"I have some dear Christian friends who are not Calvinists and we get along well without tying to disprove the other one. There are more important matters than this one."

Truth is always important. Otherwise the Bible wouldn't have told us to contend for it earnestly.

Jon L. Estes said...

"I continue to believe it is possible for clear thinking Christians who love God and want to know truth can rest on supporting the tithe.""

Some people who come to mind:

H. Lindsay (Sr & Jr)
J. Bisagno
A. Rogers
V. Havner
S. Cathey
J. Vines

We can list some who don't. What these two groups, if listed, would find common ground upon is, the essentials of which tithing is not one of them.

I'll stick with these men of God and not make tithing a dividing subject.

Anonymous said...

"I will stop there the rest of your comment came across as an attack. I don't want to put myself in a position to stumble. I hope yu understand."

Not an attack Jon. Just the truth. Very odd that you would take it that way.

Anonymous said...

"I'll stick with these men of God and not make tithing a dividing subject."

Jon we have already covered this topic. Men's opinions do not decide the truth of the Bible - no matter who they are. I don't understand why you are going back to old positions that you have already abandoned in the past.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Truth is always important. Otherwise the Bible wouldn't have told us to contend for it earnestly."

The truth is some very fine Christian men and women were not gullible mindless Christians who did search scripture and came to the conclusion that the tithe was biblical can still be trusted to handle God's word.

I am sure there are Bozo's out there who are abusing the tithe but I think they are a very small minority.

This new book with a false message "Love Wins" is distorting a truth which should be contended for.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Jon we have already covered this topic. Men's opinions do not decide the truth of the Bible - no matter who they are"


AMEN - That includes mine and yours.

Anonymous said...

"As Christians, why should we be offended if someone asks us about our life squaring with scripture? I continue to believe it is possible for clear thinking Christians who love God and want to know truth can rest on supporting the tithe."

Yes, if they ignore the inconsistencies and contradictions.

It would also be helpful to consider the source. I would say it is much more likely to do the former if your salary is coming from the preaching of the tithe.

Anonymous said...

"AMEN - That includes mine and yours."

The difference is that I'm not relying of a list of men to validate prove my point. I'm using scripture interpreted correctly and in context.

Anonymous said...

"The truth is some very fine Christian men and women were not gullible mindless Christians who did search scripture and came to the conclusion that the tithe was biblical can still be trusted to handle God's word."

In that case, you should be able to use their same points and present a coherent logical case for NT tithing.

You have already admitted that you can't.

Anonymous said...

"I am sure there are Bozo's out there who are abusing the tithe but I think they are a very small minority."

What is your source for this statement?

Jon L. Estes said...

"It would also be helpful to consider the source. I would say it is much more likely to do the former if your salary is coming from the preaching of the tithe."

I don't know but I am confident that the men I listed were not motivated to preach such because of their paycheck. Some of you here know these men better than I do, do you think their paycheck was their motive for preaching the tithe?

"What is your source for this statement?"

I did not intend for this statement to be an absolute but rather my opinion.

"The difference is that I'm not relying of a list of men to validate prove my point. I'm using scripture interpreted correctly and in context."

As I am sure the men I listed were also.

I have no desire to further argue a tertiary issue. There are to many godly men who have wrestled with this and came up differently than you did and they discovered their position using scripture in context. They seemed to see it differently than you all the while being as honest with scripture as they were able. The same criteria we use in searching scripture.

When I get to heaven and God tells me I understood it wrong, I will not argue with Him about my approach to interpreting scripture but gladly thank Him and learn.

When I get to heaven and God tells me 2+2 = 5, I will not argue. I admit I have not yet arrived in understanding all things.

WishIhadknown said...

“My position would be to go to the pastor. There is biblical precedence for this.”
I agree whole heartedly with you on this and I feel like I could go to my current Pastor and do just that. I feel like I could do that with you too, Jon.
It’s just that there are so many very popular men who call themselves “Pastor” who believe they are above questioning and isolate themselves from the ones they should be serving, you know, the members, who they are constantly brow beating about tithing. Others will pretend to want to hear your concerns but the truth is they only want to identify yourself so they can label you a “dissenter.”
Ok, one other question what differentiates a “Calvinist” from any other Christian?

Anonymous said...

Jon, I find it ironic that Tom has told you he will not engage you on your question to him, yet you persist by presenting it again. Your claim of a repentent Jon seems 'affected' based on your pushing the question. Personally, I think it is just another Jon tactic. We have seen quite a few of them over the years.

Anonymous said...

jon, why not live out 'repentent jon' at least as long as you have 'jerk jon' before you start pressing a matter. Jerk jon had a 4 year run on blogs.

Anonymous said...

jon, can you link to any proof that you told your fellow church members that you wrongly taught them the tithe?

Jim said...

Tom, for the sake of your wider reading audience, many of whom never post, PLEASE limit the number of responses a single individual may make to an initial post. Some tend to hijack the discussion and have little of value to share after two or three comments. The resulting off-topic, kindergarten playground name-calling is not worthy to be showcased in your important blog.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Hi Jim - strange things have happened on the blog of late. I've had a particular troll who stirs people up on his own side by posting over the top criticsms of my points of view, and now Jon Estes seems to be using my blog for his own therapy, to relieve some sort of guilt he has over his past comments here on this blog.

I really can't do much about it, except to shut off all comments or to begin moderating them, and I am not in a position to moderate as might have been in the past.

So I'll just try to keep the topics moving and hope people post responsibly.

And Jon Estes, brother, just give it a break. What ever apologies you've offered, or olive branch you've extended, they're accepted, and move on. But try giving the comments here a rest for a while and come back in a few weeks.

Thy Peace said...

When I get to heaven and God tells me 2+2 = 5,

I humbly submit the place then would NOT be heaven.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Amazing. Out of the 73 comments in this thread so far, beginning with JLE's initial comment, the 6th one, 64 of the remaining 67 comments have been by, about, or in response to JLE who has been posting almost hourly since 5:30 this morning. Congratulations, Jon. You have successfully hijacked another blog!

Make that 65 out of 68 with this one.

The Butcher Priest said...

John Estes seems to be a sincere individual. His spirit is genuine, his faith real. If anybody on this blog were to be in the will of God, without a doubt it would be John Estes.

We must accept his apologies at face value and consider his views and opinions on the topics offered here on this blog.

Pat on the back to John for not being a fake.

Now, on to the topic of this blog-the will of God.

I once heard a few good quotes about the will of God, but I can't remember them. So you all will have to suffer through my own interpretation of such.

As a person, as a soul, you are either in or out of the will of God.
I'd rather be a lost person out of the will of God, then a Christian out of the will of God.
Your being in the will of God has nothing and does not depend on your pastors being in the will of God. You cannot connect or link the two. One is not dependent upon the other.

I don't think God takes preferences and says because you sir are a pastor, you are more in the will of God than this lost sinner lay person. That's a form of favoritism.

To be or not to be? That is the question. If we know what the will of God is for our lives, will we always choose to put ourselves in the will of God for ourselves? I think most of us deep down would say to ourselves, well it depends on what the will of God is for each of us. I don't think all of us would move to Iraq to become a missionary at the drop of a hat if God presented us with that calling.

I think Christians walk on thin ice when they challenge others as to their closeness or evidence of being in the will of God.

I don't think writing blogs dedicated to the spiritual assasination of other christian pastors and leaders qualifies as being in the will of God.

The Butcher Priest said...

If you don't tithe, you are not in the will of God when it comes to financial obedience in your life. Plain and simple.

Standards have existed and will always be a part of the Christians life. Watering down expectations and a particular level of obedience, such as saying its ok to give 3% instead of 10%, is grounds for abomination and utter rebellion in the believers heart.

A person with this attitude is destined for hell not heaven.

The Butcher Priest said...

As far as varying translations of the Bible, I see nothing wrong with using a different translation other than the old time KJV. Now some translations desolate God's word and should be avoided altogether. But there are some acceptable and reputable translations such as the NASB that are good for modern day culture, as it relates to the Christian's life.

The Butcher Priest said...

The liberal wasteland is far reaching, dry and scattered with bones and carcasses, those of whom belong to would be christians who reached the final destination of their miserable hypocritical journey.
One mustn't pass through the liberal wasteland. It should be avoided altogether if possible. We are called to be in the world but not of the world.

Liberals are sweet people. Take the gays for instance. Gays and Lesbians are nice people, a lot nicer than some of you naysayers on this blog.
As christians, we must be open to the opinions of liberals but not malleable to their vain propositions. Liberals must be accepted for who they are, and not dismissed for who they aren't. Unfortunately, far too many times we as Christians dismiss liberals altogether because they don't fit our own form or mold of what a person should be or act like. This must change.

Anonymous said...

Not having been on for a while, I was sympathetic toward Jon Estes views -- until he said he liked Maurillo's fashion tips.

Jon L. Estes said...

In reference to the blog you cite, I can in no way think of any Southern Baptist Church which fits their fundamentalist criteria.

I do, for some of their stuff, appreciate the parody they use.

Lin said...

Some people who come to mind:

H. Lindsay (Sr & Jr)
J. Bisagno
A. Rogers
V. Havner
S. Cathey
J. Vines

We can list some who don't. What these two groups, if listed, would find common ground upon is, the essentials of which tithing is not one of them.

I'll stick with these men of God and not make tithing a dividing subject.

April 27, 2011 5:55 PM

This is the sort of thinking that is so sad in Christianity. There are NO men of God. There are only depraved sinners saved by the same grace as anyone.

There is no caste system in Christianity or "special people'. All believers have the same anointing if they are true believers.

So many promote men instead of Christ and the Word. that is what Jon is really doing by this comment. We are supposed to think teaching the tithe is ok because some who have been successful in what they call ministry say so. That is following man instead of Christ and that is what is wrong with the church.

Teaching the tithe leads to all kinds of error. But the worst part of it is thinking of a percentage instead of being led by the Holy Spirit. When they teach the tithe, they are literally telling folks not to be led by the Holy Spirit but to follow a man made formula. This only keeps believers very immature.

WishIhadknown said...

The Butcher Priest said...
“If you don't tithe, you are not in the will of God when it comes to financial obedience in your life. Plain and simple.

Standards have existed and will always be a part of the Christians life. Watering down expectations and a particular level of obedience, such as saying its ok to give 3% instead of 10%, is grounds for abomination and utter rebellion in the believers heart.

A person with this attitude is destined for hell not heaven.”

What is this list and of “standards” and where is it found in the Bible? Do you have a list? Did God give to you or man? The only standards I see being debated here are manmade, just like tithing.

tom said...

A person with this attitude is destined for hell not heaven.

The beast has his exactly where hw wants him, the rejection of the teachings of jesus. The law will condem this person.