In a few days, the matter of First Baptist Jacksonville, the FBC Jax Watchdog blogsite, and the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office (JSO) subpoenas will enter into a new phase.I have retained legal counsel to pursue the truth of exactly what happened last fall resulting in the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office obtaining my identity through subpoena power, and then disclosing my identity to the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville. The issues discussed on this blog, FBC Jax and the words and actions of its pastor Mac Brunson, will now shift to issues of free speech, free anonymous speech, and federal privacy matters. As will be alleged in the forthcoming legal action, I believe it will be proven the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office (JSO) and the State Attorney's Office (SAO) have played a role in wrongly interfering in one of its citizen's rights to speak freely on religious matters concerning FBC Jacksonville.
From this point on, I am committed to using all legal means necessary to find the truth, and then prevent these types of things happening again in Duval County and elsewhere. Government officials involving themselves in the affairs of a church matter under the pretext of a criminal investigation, for the purpose of identifying and exposing an anonymous dissenter to a large, powerful, religious institution is completely wrong, and unacceptable.
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"Government officials involving themselves in the affairs of a church matter under the pretext of a criminal investigation, for the purpose of identifying and exposing an anonymous dissenter to a large, powerful, religious institution is completely wrong, and unacceptable."
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I have retained the services of the J. Scott Nooney law firm in Jacksonville, Florida in the forthcoming lawsuit for the issues mentioned above. With the aid of this law firm, I fully intend to find the truth, and to hold those accountable for any wrongdoing in that process, and to effect necessary change such that it won't happen again.
This blog will remain open for discussion of these matters.
And anonymous speech is welcome here.
249 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 249 of 24910:54 A.M.**** "Many current and former staff members etc." Have you considered becoming the "Deep Throat" of FBC? Mr. Richs attorneys, and the church members in general, need to know what you know.
April 30, 2009 11:35 AM - we are not trying to "destroy your home church." We just had some questions. Mac and Maurilio are the ones destroying. Why not tell Mac this has gone on long enough and that he needs to be more transparent and accountable to those in his flock who have questions. Thanks.
April 30, 2009 11:35 AM - what gives the churches a bad name is not people blogging about thier concerns. What gives churches a bad name is the actions of the pastors being blogged about. For example: Darrel Gilyard, Bob Gray, Steve Gaines, Mac Brunson, Frank Harber, Bob Reccord, etc., etc.
Maybe it is God's will for these men to finally be exposed. If so, he may be using bloggers. I would hate to be fighting against God by attacking bloggers.
11:24: Comments stating "Junior detectives and attorneys etc.: Are you confused? Don't you see what is happening? The last place most of us would want to be is in "leadership" or on a committee" (?) at this church. Especially now. Do you really think anyone is "JEALOUS" of leadership or those of "importance"? Your comments are a perfect example of what has happened to this church. The sheer arrogance that prevails there now, is astounding!!! Anon. of 12:13 PM, is right this church will probably self-destruct on it's own.
What tells me more about the current state of FBC Jax, Brunson, and the Brunsonites is this:
Mrs. Yvette Rich was given a trespass warning by the Reverends John Blount and Kevin King, for "associating with a member engaged in misconduct".
Then, a few weeks later, someone at the church, presumably the Rev. John Blount, went to the JSO and filed official trespass warnings with the sheriff's office to make sure Mrs. Rich would be arrested if she came to the property.
And none of the purple and cherry Kool Aid drinkers down at the church came to her defense. Not Mac. Not Debbie. Not Soud. No trustee. Not one single solitary deacon. No one. A member of 20 years who had given hundreds and hundreds of hours of ministry to the church and never caused a problem ever, and she gets a trespass warning filed against her with the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office because her husband was a blogger.
The good Rev. Blount knew Mrs. Rich was dropping her kids off and staying in her car waiting for them to get out of church so she wouldn't be arrested if she accompanied her kids to church, or went to see her daughter sing in her ensemble. Blount should be ashamed. I wonder what Mrs. Blount thinks about the treatment of Mrs. Rich. Maybe she didn't even know.
All this other stuff is noise.
The treatment of Mrs. Yvette Rich under the leadership of pastors Mac and Debbie Brunson tells me ALL I need to know about them. They want only followers of them at the church, anyone else should get kicked to the curb.
Disgusting.
Hey, did the wife of Steve Edmunds get a trespass warning?
I doubt it.
ANON. 11:35 A.M.: This blog., and it's commentors are not responsible for the "current illness" of FBCJ. They injured themselves when they turned this church into a Society/Business venture. For your information, many of us have attended, worked in, prayed for, paid for, and LOVED this church for many years. What we have lost cannot be replaced.
Hypothetical: A well known, published and tenured professor at UF trades "A" grades for sex with students. Another student, not wanting to risk their place at the university or draw attention to themselves, informs the adminstration of the misconduct via anonymous email. The professor than angrily begins to attack anonymous emailers during class lectures. The student, continues to see activity that tells her the abuse in ongoing, so instead of just "moving on", she starts a blog about this professor, hoping others will see it and hold him accountable. Then the professor and the UF Administration began targeting students who have blogs that are critical of UF. They use the GPD to out the bloggers. Than they kick the blogger out of school. Others tell the student what a great professor this man is, tell her to go another school if she can't support UF, ask her why she "hates UF so much" and tells her that her blogging has gone on long enough. The professor continues to have sex with the student and others and is given a raise by the UF admin, continues to sell books and continues to promote himself through the UF media marketing budget and machine. He then tells all the other professors, students and the Gainesville son that this student is an unbalanced sociopath. Would you expect that student to just move on? I didn't think so. But if you have been brainwashed, you will attack the blogger.
I would hope there would be ONE brave sole who would expose this professor. Even if "college students" who used to have him as a professor think you are out to "bring down the Univ of Florida."
See any similarities to the WD and Mac Brunson here? Mac Brunson is NOT the FBC of Jax. He is NOT the Lord Jesus. To question him is not to attack or hate the church or the Lord, no more than questioning a UF professor means you hate UF and want to bring down UF. Maybe just the opposite is true.
Good question about Mrs. Edmonds. Didn't she "associate" with a convicted child molestor of young boys and a predator who was also a trusted and respected deacon?
Is anonymous blogging worse than that at FBC Jax if it contains "unjust criticism?" Did Judge Soud read any resolution to the church about this past deacon who was there shaking hands, smiling and was actually abusing kids? Wonder why a blogger is of so much more concern?
"Through the transparency of his servant's heart, he calls viewers to prayer and unity so that above all, the name of Jesus Christ is glorified."
SBC definition for "unity"...stand behind your pastor no matter what he does or says.
Mac can say he has a "servant's heart" all he wants to...doesn't make it the truth...in fact it is laughable!
Twist and manipulate those people with your tired script all you want to,Mac. It will only work on those who are already on your team...no one new will take that fake bull over the facts of your actions.
I do expect his little cheer leaders to heap even more guilt and shame on WD.
Another old tactic would be to pass the buck...blame all his actions on a team member, make them the scape goat, fire them....but secretly give them a nice financial package to take along on their way out.
Mmmmm...what will the Mac machine do????
Wonder if PP has advised poor persecuted Mac yet????
Anonymous of 1:50 PM. Outstanding comment, and insight. What happened to Mrs. Rich is truly a travesty. But I can tell you this "treatment" of long time members that run afoul of the preacher and minnions is not new. You can serve, for years and get tossed or forced out over night. And NO ONE will stand by you. Even when they truly know you have been mistreated. They don't want to get involved. They want to save their pitiful positions. They are more interested in being important, and thought of as "somebody". They MUST appear "spiritual". At this point in my opinion it ceases to be a church. It doesn't matter how badly you have been hurt, or how it has affected your life, and indeed your trust of any church or pastor. They don't care. I am so glad that GOD keeps the records. One day at the Judgement Seat there will be TRANSPARENCY and ACCOUNTABILITY!!! Then every knee shall bow.
I bet it's scary for the Mac machine to see so many THINKING people.
No matter what rabbit they manage to pull out of the hat....many people know the truth.
I still have an article that Dr Rogers wrote (I am not saying he knew it all or was perfect)about forgiveness and how it never means we are to just blow things off and not hold people accountable.
I believe this is the article:
The Gospel for Life - Forgivenessby Dr. Adrian Rogers
I know the Bible talks about forgiveness, but how often? I have to keep forgiving the same person over and over, for the same sin, but it makes me resentful? How can I hate the sin, but love the sinner?
Forgiveness is a hot topic these days, especially in light of the terrorist attacks. It seems that everybody is talking about it, but few people understand it. In order to understand forgiveness, you have to understand the One Who created it, and how He gives it. Forgiveness is Biblical, Jesus is the supreme forgiver, and forgiveness cannot be understood outside of that context.
Forgiveness is similar to a contract between two parties. The victim has to be prepared to forgive, and the offender has to desire forgiveness. Suppose somebody intentionally spreads gossip about you. You may get over it and be willing to forgive, but you can’t forgive until your offender is repentant and desires to be forgiven (Luke 13:3). While that is so, you cannot harbor in your heart an unforgiving spirit. You must, as it were, put forgiveness in the bank in escrow, and when the one who has offended you writes “the check of repentance,” that forgiveness is there waiting on him.
What I mean is this: that you must download any unforgiving spirit and be ready always to forgive. You cannot harbor bitterness.
That being done, if he comes to you and asks, you should grant him forgiveness. Not just once, but always (Matthew 18:21-22). Harboring bitterness in your heart is every bit as sinful as spreading gossip.
Regarding continual forgiveness for the same offense, repetitive sin demonstrates a lack of repentance, and there is no Biblical principle for letting yourself be repeatedly victimized. Do not react in kind when somebody hurts you, but certainly avoid harm whenever possible (Proverbs 13:20).
Of course, our greatest need is not forgiveness on a horizontal level (person to person), but vertically (person to God). Jesus is the key to this kind of forgiveness as well. We have no right to receive His forgiveness, however, if we harbor unforgiveness in our own hearts (Matthew 18:23-35).
Appeared January 6, 2002
© 2002 The Commercial Appeal
ABP News > 'Outed' blogger sues sheriff's, prosecutor's office.
The previous generation made room for this generation. They operated with far more finesse, but I really see very little difference between them and this generation, except this generation is just so crass and stupid.
Thank you Nass!!! I cut that out of the paper and kept it all this time. That is what BBC was teaching at one time.
Jeri,
You may be more right than wrong about that. However, I do think Bro. Rogers' teaching on forgiveness will be more respected than the current self anointed Baptist popes. Most are not even attempting to teach repentance and accountability anymore. Very sad.
One has to realize if you don't love "yourself" then no one else will. This is the "highest ideal" for mega preachers. They are obviously taught this in the seminary these days...otherwise why would they keep telling us how intelligent they are quoting the Greek and speaking to us on some new book they just read. They forget that some of us also have college degrees but did not waste our education on trivia but on actually learning to read what is important.... the BIBLE. They also want us to know their new car is a Mercedez, BMW, or Cadillac. One thing they do not want you or I to know is how much money they rake in. It has to be a secret at all cost,(no pun intended). All the while Jesus rode on a borrowed donkey. He was also beaten, bruised, and crucified by the establishment. Learn anything from this senario?
You folks wouldn't know genuine transparency and accountability if it bit you on the hind end. If we all had genuine transparency we would all be recognized as the humans that we are.
As for accountability, Mac is and always has been accountable to the key committees and their members. It is not Biblical to think that he is accountable to the deacons or to some business meeting. The church has empowered those committees to act so let them do their work.
The time to have spoken up was when the Lindseys or Jerry Vines were there. The church still has the same committees and that is the way the church is set up to function.
Of course you could always stand up in a business meeting and make your opinions known but we all know that will never happen.
What happens if the other two bloggers illegally outed by the JAXstopo decide to join in the lawsuit?
gmommy wrote, "Jeri,
You may be more right than wrong about that. However, I do think Bro. Rogers' teaching on forgiveness will be more respected than the current self anointed Baptist popes. Most are not even attempting to teach repentance and accountability anymore. Very sad"
True, I take your point. But the thread of entitlement and immunity goes back through Vines, in my opinion, speaking as the person who sent him all kinds of documentation about Dave Hyles, who was attending (and still is, as far as I know) FBC Jax, and never even got an answer from him. They were all still thick as thieves back then, but had more finesse and some better doctrinal understanding.
Great article NASS.
You should read it sometime.
Some would have us think that Watchdog is wrong for seeking Justice. To do so would displease God. Meanwhile some of these same people travel the world on the tithe of The of the Old lady that eats Oatmill.
As far as Mrs. Edmonds is concerned, isn't she a relative of the judge in question - A.C. Soud? And what about the light sentence her husband received? Sounds like this church has a different concept of integrity than what I have.
Louis wrote
"Hinson's actions that are complained of in this case were the use of his office and power to obtain a subpoena improperly and then to share the name of the dog with the church (again, I haven't read the complaint, but that seems to be the nuts and bolts of this)."
And this:
If I see a policeman on the street and tell him that I was just threatened by a man who walked up the street, and the officer followed and picked up a guy based on the description I gave, if it turns out that I lied, it does not matter as far as the officer's liability is concerned. He is entitled to rely on my report, true or not. "
But you are leaving out some important points here.
Would the police office obtain a subpeona to get the guys personal information and then give that information to you when he found there was no threat?
Could I get the sheriff's office to do this for me based on a year old 'stalking' occurence that was not reported before?
Keep in mind, we keep hearing the term 'internet incident'. What is that? No wrong doing was determined, yet, they were still given WD's name. Could I get that same information in the same manner?
Also, would the officer in the scenerio you gave above wait until the time frame for investigationsto destroy the documents THEN give you the guys name? Perhaps, if he was your buddy.
No offense to Tiffany but I am not real convinced of her position about the JSO because her dad is a reserve office AND he attends FBCJax and seems to support Brunson. Which is probably hurtful enough but leads me to believe she is being very careful for the sake of family ties. This is not an attack on her but just an observation. I think she is in a very uncomfortable position.
I heard Blount state that none of the things done recently (as reported in the papers) were done by the pastor, they were done by the church thru the deacons, committees, etc.... implying the pastor had nothing to do with any of the actions taken to find out who watchdog was,etc. the first thing I thought was... geez... throw everyone under the bus why don't ya~
He also stated that these accusations, news reports and WD blog content were all attacks of satan on our church. it was all pretty nauseating.
Satan does indeed attack believers but it sure doesn't help when we give fuel for the fire by engaging in shady behavior that, even if proven to be somewhat legitimate by courts, smells of something rotten.
Anon 7:29 PM said..."Of course you could always stand up in a business meeting and make your opinions known but we all know that will never happen."
There were a few who had the courage to stand up and TRY to make their opinions heard at the meeting for the by-laws change, only to be told by Judge Soud that they weren't smart enough to understand what needed to be done. Just another example of "shut 'em down" if they don't agree.
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"Great article NASS.
You should read it sometime."
April 30, 2009 8:16 PM
Anony, did you read the part about repentance, or did you just gloss over that important point? Reading skills, my friend. It might serve you well to practice some.
oc.
Lydia:
Good points. All analogies break down at some point.
My only point was to show that the cop would not be liable for misinformation provided by another.
The officer's paperwork lacks detail, true. But there is no cause of action for bad paperwork or disposing of paperwork. He could be disciplined if he broke department rules regarding paperwork, but so far his superiors are backing him up.
We are just going to have to wait and see what tumbles out here.
I would like to read the complaint, and wish someone would post it. I would like to read the Answer, too, when filed.
If this thing follows to form, I suspect that an early motion to dismiss will be filed along with the affidavits of the officer and his superiors (maybe nothing from FBC or its staff), and that WD's lawyers will oppose this and ask to take discovery.
As in all lawsuits, I am making no predictions.
Louis
Anon 6:40 am; That is a bald face lie! I was there and that never happened!!!!!!!!!!
I emailed Dr. Brunson yesterday using my name and telling him I was a 32 year member of FBCJAX. I asked him to explain one of the items that the WD had brought up about the land gift and the "ad" for the Collins boys whose father had donated the $300,000 gift. The reply I got from his "administrative assistant", not Dr. B was I have nothing to explain and I have done no wrong. I emailed them both back and told them that I was praying that the Lord would convinct him (Dr. B) of his sins and that he would repent before it was too late for FBCJAX to continue to be a witness for Jesus in this city. I also told him that I was finding another church to worship in and to give my money to ASAP. I cannot support this person as pastor no longer
Con't ....Oh and he told me thru his AA "good luck in your search for a new church, I will be praying for you", i.e., don't let the door hit your backside on your way out. This is the response I got as an identified member of FBCJAX. This man is unbelievable. And for you people who are critical of anonymous replies, it does no good to identify yourself, thinking you would get an explanation. He would recognize my name. I am the wife of one of the deacons.
Jim Smyrl said he has guns everywhere in his house on Wednesday night. Talk about TMI. I wonder if he packs heat at church.
At the risk of sounding ignorant, how does one know if their mail has been stolen?
Anon May 1, 2009 7:53 PM
Good for you and good luck on your search. FBCJ is really turning into a haven for sycophants as the old time members continue to leave in droves.
May 1, 2009 7:53 PM
&
May 1, 2009 7:43 PM
Your quote from the AA is standard procedure. When my dear friends requested a meeting 2 years ago with Mad Mac they got the same quote. Several more since then have received the exact same quote. So tell us, how does it feel to be just "standard procedure"? Sad isn't it.
Jesus wept.
Wanted,
New Church members.
Must be able to follow orders without questions.
Must be able to give a min of 10% of your earnings without asking where it goes.
Must be able to follow doctrine of do as i say not what i do.
Must be able to lie when needed.
Must allways protect the pastor from those who did not follow the above stated rules.
Anon:8:44 "Wanted New Church Memebers": Brilliant!!!! Please add must be able to put aside individuality, and own spiritual discernment, and believe what your told. Just follow "party line".
Also must be prepared to be treated like a "virus" if you don't do above. Suggest you skip this church and join another.
"The reply I got from his "administrative assistant", not Dr. B was I have nothing to explain and I have done no wrong."
People who believe that mega church pastors give out their private personal e-mail addresses are fooling themselves. They rarely if ever read their public address e-mails. They have Assistants who do such things and their assistants have standard replies to give out.
Same with phone calls. Chances are he might not ever know you called UNLESS you pitch a fit to the assistant. They are instructed in how to deal with basic inquiries to shield the celebrity pastor from 'unnecessary' interactions. It is one reason for such large staff's. But then, if you insist, you are labeled and get nowhere fast.
By the time one has made their 'question for the pastor' known through these layers of institutionalization, it has been silenced. The person has been effectively dealt with and will cause no problems for the pastor or the church. You will have been 'neutralized' in the familiar jargon of mega churches.
WD was quite wise not to use that dead end channel of communication. Mega churches are nothing more than large institutions that profit a few and entertain the masses.
Come out of them! Worship and study at home if you must but please come out of these temples of entertainment and merchandising of the Gospel.
Matt
Matt - Mac said from the pulpit he reads EVERY e-mail. I hope he is asked about this under oath. I think there is a pattern of lying from the pulpit and this is another example of it. He also said, "I don't get paid to preach" that he does that for free, it is all the other "stuff" that he does that takes his time and that we pay him for.
As someone who has made a living doing Pest control most of his life. I cant help but to think this has reminded me of a Fireant mound. It was harmless until someone stepped in it. Mac should have watched where he was going. Now all he can do is take the pain and pop the blisters.
Matt 11:36..Right on. The bible says to come out from among them and be ye seperate, saith the Lord. When spirituality leaves a church they are no more than just empty buildings which have no meaning or long term effect on the cities within which they are located. Sorry to say but a lot of churches have been torn down, boarded up, or need tearing down since they offer no hope to anyone that attends. It would be better to sell the property and give the proceeds to some local institutions that really care about the people.
Mac says "he isn't paid to preach, he does that for free. It's all the other "stuff" he gets paid for". Isn't that strange...We hired him to PREACH, he has created most of the other "stuff" himself.
I read this week that Mac Brunson is preaching at the SBC convention Pastors Conference in Louisville in June.
I believe that he should withdraw from this considering his behavior in PUBLIC over the last months.
He is most certainly not the model of a pastor that we want to promote in our convention.
Anonymous said...
I read this week that Mac Brunson is preaching at the SBC convention Pastors Conference in Louisville in June.
I believe that he should withdraw from this considering his behavior in PUBLIC over the last months.
He is most certainly not the model of a pastor that we want to promote in our convention.
May 2, 2009 8:07 PM
I agree 100%.
But we both know that won't happen.
He wants to meet Mike Huckabee.
WD, I have all of this from a distance as I was a former member of FBC and staff member. I have decided to say what I think.
Most comments are attacking Mac for his salary. The reality is that the salary is not the issue. The church can hire him for whatever they want. Just like any other business. The venom I see towards FBC comes from an image that has been created by them over the years. I know personally the other pastors had their weaknesses as well, as we all do.
With all that said, I also believe you have a right to challenge the legality of what has taken place. I have many members tell me you were a coward for being anonymous. Well, whethr you are or not is for you to address. However, being anonymous is not ILLEGAL. I understand you have a right to address the issues regarding the legalities of what has taken place. I regret you get attacked personally by others in the Body of Christ. Anonymity is not illegal in the USA as far as I know. I only ask that you keep to the legal matters at hand and hope that all comments stay focused on that issues. Character assassination does our Savior a far greater disservice.
Like someone told me recently, "why would I want your God, you people are just as screwed up as the rest of us." Sadly, it was the FBC JAX decisions that led to this person renouncing interest in Christ.
I refuse to take sides in this matter. If forced I am on the side of the Father and the laws of the USA. If laws were broken, then consequences must happen, as it would for anyone.
Just my 2 cents.
Rick - you might want to repost your comment on the latest thread else most people won't read it.
I agree with WD. It's very much worth reposting so the multitudes can read this one. Thanks for the post.
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