"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Monday, October 5, 2009

The Watchdog Goes Idle for a While...

Readers - this will be my last post in a while. Events require that I take a break at least temporarily from blogging, probably through the month of October or longer, unless events during this period dictate otherwise.

Thank you to the contributors of this blog, those on both sides of the issues that have used this forum to discuss and debate important issues at FBC Jax.

In the meantime, until the next post, blessings to all.

147 comments:

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

May God bless you and your entire family!!!

Thy Peace said...

God bless you Tom. It is good to be on a sabbatical. Hope you do well in the court cases. May God richly bless Tom Rich, Yvette and their family.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Mr. Rich for your perseverance, bravery, and commitment to TRUTH, and honesty. May God Bless you and your family. Am praying for a favorable outcome in the case FOR YOU. Bless you!!!

Anonymous said...

That might explain why a long letter I wrote you on Saturday (10/3) never got posted. I thought I hit the wrong button! God Bless you Tom.
Bruce.

Anonymous said...

I notice that you only post those comments that affirm you and your family. Interesting.

Billy Edwards said...

Tom:
Thank you for your willingness to continue this blog despite all of the negative attacks you are receiving. I am deeply saddened by the way FBCJ has handled and continues to handle this blog and your family.
God Bless.

Anonymous said...

I notice that you only post those comments that affirm you and your family. Interesting.

October 5, 2009 12:48 PM
___________________________________

Not true of the WD, but it sure is true of those in church leadership in regards to only letting the people hear of comments, questions or concerns that affirm the leadership and their family. They even passed a resolution to make sure no one dares make criticism of the leadership.

Anonymous said...

WD - reminds me of the old saying "let a sleeping dog lie." I hope the church leadership and/or their lawyers might jump on this opportunity to reach out to you behind the scenes to put this mess behind all of you.

Jim said...

Tom, thanks for your commitment to our Lord and His Church, not the religious corporations which now masquerade as the Bride of Christ. God help them and the gullible people who give time, energy, talent and resources to those "whited sepulchers" (Matthew 23:27). May God bless you and give you a meaningful and energizing time away.

Thy Peace said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Richard said...

Blessings to you and your family Tom.

Luke said...

Well, thats no fun. I've got you on my bloglist so I'll be back when you are. Good luck!

Anonymous said...

Tom, If you caused ONE person to seek truth in the Word and leave that temple of entertainment and greed (for a few), it will have all been worth it.

The Mac's of this world cannot continue without willing followers. And that is where the blame lies. As scripture tells us there will always be wolves even from among the elders (Acts 20 and other passages)

But without discernment from the Holy Spirit through the Word, they will not see it and will continue to follow blindly.

Anonymous said...

FINALLY!!

Anonymous said...

Attn: FINALLY: Don't get too cockey, you haven't won yet!!!

Deb said...

Tom,

I'm praying fervently that God will sustain you through this trial.

May His absolute truth be revealed!

Blessings to you and your family.

Voice of Reason said...

Attn: FINALLY: Don't get too cockey, you haven't won yet!!!
___________________________________

This is not about "winning" or losing no matter which side you are on. I would think both sides should realize they are losing as long as the blog and lawsuits are necessary. My hope and prayer is that the church will allow God to work in their hearts and instead of "aggressively confronting" criticism, passing deacon resolutions, trespassing members, using the JSO and SAO, and shunning members who blog, that they would try kindness, gentleness, love, forgiveness, and humility. They should try this and trust God to work. Then, Tom would need to respond likewise.

That, my friends on both sides, would resolve this matter and my guess is you would see the blog go away (and no others started) and the lawsuits dropped and Christ would be glorified. And the whole SBC would have a great roadmap and template on how NOT to address concerns and how TO address them.

It seems Tom has made the first move. What will be the church's response? More aggression, or finally some love and wisdom?

We shall see.

Anonymous said...

Maybe the time off will allow you to repent and remove this heinous blog. It will also allow you time to pay attention to your family and quit obsessing with Mac. You're not a member any longer and he's still pastor of FBC, Jax so give it a rest and move on.

Also wondering why you continue to post comments. Obviously you haven't given it a rest yet.

Anonymous said...

Blogger 12:40:

GO FISH!!!!

Anonymous said...

To those who think "things should be worked out", there should be love and forgiveness, etc., etc. There is no Santa Claus, no Tooth fairy, no Easter Bunny Rabbitt. As much as things SHOULD be, they won't be. Sorry, but everything will not be lovely in the garden till Jesus comes.

Anonymous said...

Maybe the time off will allow you to repent and remove this heinous blog.
__________________________________
Repent of what? Blogging anonymously? You just did that.

"Heinous" - why is this blog "heinous?" And why do you read and comment on heinous blogs? What other "heinous" sites do you frequent?

Anonymous said...

October 6, 2009 12:59 PM - I agree with you. That is why only a hypocrite would stand in the pulpit week in and week out and preach about the fruits of the spirit and trusting God, and follwing 'da book, and then not even try to do what it says in this situation.

Funny how you question my belief in Santa while claiming to know that Jesus is real. I write to Santa every day, he has brought me good things in the past, he knows if I am bad or good so I better be good, there are songs sung about him, my mom and dad taught me about him and to believe in him. And now you are suggesting he is not real? How dare you. How does this differ from your basis for belief in Jesus? Aren't they both myths to make us feel better and to threaten us with no gifts if we don't fall into line?

You ask me how I know he (Santa) lives? He lives within my heart. He walks with me and talks with me. He is even in the malls every year around Christmas time and many movies are made about him. I could go on...

I am glad we agree on the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy. :)

Anonymous said...

At least Santa doesn't have his "helpers" or "Santa's men" tell me I am obligated to give him 10% of my income. And let's be glad there is no man, or no organization, that claims to be Santa, or speak for Santa. Or who manipulate people and tell them "if you love Santa you will give your best to ME (or MY organization)." What a nice gig for the "spiritual" leaders in our society. But I am not worried, because Santa is coming back soon. Less than three months. Come quickly, Santa.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"Maybe the time off will allow you to repent and remove this heinous blog. It will also allow you time to pay attention to your family and quit obsessing with Mac. You're not a member any longer and he's still pastor of FBC, Jax so give it a rest and move on.

Also wondering why you continue to post comments. Obviously you haven't given it a rest yet."

October 6, 2009 12:40 PM


Tom you've done what God chose you to do,and that was to expose the hypocrisy of Mac.
With that done it's up to everyone at FBCJ to make up their own minds as to the validity of the facts given compared with Mac's own actions.
Obviously the above Anon comments indicates what he has chosen his side.
He shows a total lack of Biblical discernment!!!
He is the blind following the blind and their all heading for a ditch!

"WORSE AND WORSE"!!!

Johnny D. said...

Well, Cousin Tom, I'm going to miss you. I wish you a nice, restful time away, but I suspect you'll be involved some stressful things. Nevertheless, my good wishes for you come from my heart.

You'll have to forgive me for inviting the folks here to come and read and comment on my blog while you're away, but there it is - an invitation.

Dee said...

I hope this portends well for you, Tom. Maybe, just maybe, someone will do something right in regards to your situation.

I am grateful that I have gotten a chance to know Yvette and you. You are a good friend.

Fight the good fight. Truth is on your side. My prayers are with you. The Wartburg Watch will keep our eye on things.

Our letter goes out by the end of this week (as discussed).

Anonymous said...

You are still coming to the family reunion, aren't you? After all we have done for you by commenting here?

:o)

Arce said...

As your fifth cousin thrice removed, I would suggest that you make one more post to refer people to other blogs where their discussion of the FBC Jax matter can continue with the blessings of those bloggers. You surely know and can obtain the permission of those bloggers to refer readers and posters to them.

Anonymous said...

WD: Please keep us updated as much as you feel free to, regarding the court proceedings, maybe through the Wartburg Ladies, if necessary. I understand that you require an absence due to circumstances. We look forward to your return to the blog., regardless of the outcome. We are praying for YOU!!!!.

Anonymous said...

Just checking in again to see if the church leadership has contacted this man and his wife according to Matthew 18 yet. I guess not. Will check back again next month. :)

Anonymous said...

Just checking in again to see if the church leadership has contacted this man and his wife according to Matthew 18 yet. I guess not. Will check back again next month. :)

October 8, 2009 10:43 AM

Didn't you know that Matthew 18 teaches them to get subpeona's on those who dare dissent publicly?

Anonymous said...

Sounds like this blog is going down. Soon to follow will be the frivolous law suit...Good luck with your day job Tom.

Anonymous said...

"Sounds like this blog is going down. Soon to follow will be the frivolous law suit...Good luck with your day job Tom."

October 8, 2009 3:46 PM

Spoken by a true kool-aid intoxicated Mac(ster)disciple.

Drink on my friend,drink on!

Anonymous said...

Anon Oct 8 3:46. You need to get a grip!!!You should not side with the powerful over the powerless nor forget the scripture verse. If you have done it to the least of these you have done unto ME!!! You need to be somewhat more charitable, if that is even possible!!!

Anonymous said...

Its not the job of the FBC Jax church leadership to contact Tom and his wife. They are no longer members and that was of their own making.

If anyone should contact anyone, it should be Tom humbling calling Mac to arrange a personal, face to face meeting.

But then, all of this could have been avoided if Tom had only gone to Mac personally in the beginning.

Anonymous said...

But then, all of this could have been avoided if Tom had only gone to Mac personally in the beginning.

October 8, 2009 11:28 PM

Why? Mac's behavior and false teaching was public. It deserved a public response.

Mac would have blown him off. We know that now by the way he handled the entire thing. Which, btw, was very worldly. If you knew your scripture you would know that and stop following such a person.

Follow Christ instead. You seem very impressed with titles and worldly success. Store up your treasures in heaven. See, Mac is getting his reward now. Not a good thing. Read Matthew. Pay close attention to chapters 6 and 7 if you ever decide to study on your own instead of parroting what some man says.

Anonymous said...

FBCJ MEMBER AGREES WITH:

Thy Peace said...
God bless you Tom. It is good to be on a sabbatical. Hope you do well in the court cases. May God richly bless Tom Rich, Yvette and their family.

October 5, 2009 12:18 PM

FBCJ MEMBER AGREES:
with Bro/Pasor Rod . . .May God bless you and yur entire family!

FBCJ MEMBER AGREES:
with "Voice of Reason" who asked "What will be the church's response? More aggression, or finally some love and wisdom?

FBCJ Member Says:
This blog has served as a ministry and has not been in vain! All missionaries takes sabaticle leaves. Rest is good!

FBCJ Member Says:
Love & Blessings to you and your family and my sincere apologies as a member of a church that I belong where I have been embarrased for what they did to (Mrs Rich) and struggle to understand why they can have a James 1 Administrative Committee when they themselves do not practice what they preach. Respect is lost for these leaders and they are the loosers without any court case.

Until later, love in Christ! :>)

Anonymous said...

If you want to hear what First Jax is all about, kicking people out of church for their sin being the most loving thing that can done, listen to Reverend King's sermon from Wed night when it is posted. A confusing, hypocritical, twisted sermon from one of the men who delivered the trespasses against the Rich's.

If I were a First Baptist Jax member, I'd be running for the hills.

That place is in sad shape.

Anonymous said...

Sounds like this blog is going down. Soon to follow will be the frivolous law suit...Good luck with your day job Tom.

October 8, 2009 3:46 PM
___________________________________

Really? What "sounds like" it? Perhaps WD is focusing more on the lawsuits and getting real answers now. Now it is his turn to use subpoena's to get depositions of those who are hiding and remaining silent. Maybe he is gearing up to get sworn testimony, on the record, from several folks whose stories just don't fit? Maybe this is not sounding like the blog and the lawsuits are going down, but that WD maybe is actually tired of waiting for the church to resolve this biblically and is getting into high gear in the legal realm?

But keep up your wishful, deluded thinking.

Anonymous said...

I am of considerable age. In my lifetime I have never seen so much go soooo wrong in so many venues. Our government, and our churches are on paths of destruction and defeat. While our leaders in both arenas slap themselves on the back and congratulate themselves all the while destroying the country and the churches that are supposed to lead others to Jesus. There is no preaching against hell or the devil. Preachers have sold out for a "mess of pottage". Our country compromises with evil. The leaders (church and state) compromise themselves while getting rich off of this "selling out" to evil. What are these leaders (church and state) going to do when there is no safe haven for them to live in once evil has taken over completely. Where will they go to spend their ill gotten gain. MOST OF ALL HOW WILL THEY FACE AN ANGRY GOD, AND EXPLAIN THEMSELVES???

Today evil is good and good is evil.
Matt:23:12 "And whosever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that humble himself shall be exalted". vs.27: "Woe unto tho you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead mens bones, and of all uncleaness".

Anonymous said...

"If you want to hear what First Jax is all about, kicking people out of church for their sin being the most loving thing that can done,"

I agree. Seems they do not kick out the sexual perverts but disagreeing with the pastor publicly are grounds for being kicked out. Seems the pastor has some vanity and authority problems.

I would think one would be proud of being kicked of that fake church. I know I would be. I certainly would not want to be will be in a real Body of Believers where the first is last and the last first. Not there worshiping a materialistic man who has made ministry a way to the material life whom one is not allowed to publicly question.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Its not the job of the FBC Jax church leadership to contact Tom and his wife. They are no longer members and that was of their own making.

If anyone should contact anyone, it should be Tom humbling calling Mac to arrange a personal, face to face meeting.

But then, all of this could have been avoided if Tom had only gone to Mac personally in the beginning.

October 8, 2009 11:28 PM

RM?

Anonymous said...

This all could have been avoided if the search committee had just listened to mac when he told them N-O. Why did they have to entice him over a year's time, then further entice him by agreeing to allowing his wife and son to be on staff, throw in the oceanfront condo for a year, and a quarter million dollar land gift and it all was just too good to pass up. The Brunson's figured all of this just had to be "God opening the door" right? Wrong. It was man and greed that called him here, not God. Just my opinion. :)

But man, if Tom had just gone to Mac first this all could have been avoided. Darn it.

Anonymous said...

What does the Bible say about how the spiritual leaders in the church should have dealt with this man and his wife? Old Testament - kill him and his family and his livestock in front of everyone. New Testament - with love, forgiveness, kindness, humility, patience and wisdom. Which one did FBC Jax and their deacon's choose? Which testament does mac preach out of every week?

Figure it out for yourself. Tithing, vengeance, etc is all OT. And mac is great at that OT history. Just not too good about the NT and new covenant and fruits of the Spirit. And those that think just like him, they love him and applaud him and will not listen to any other viewpoints. It tells us a lot more about OURSELVES, than it does about the WD or Mac, doesn't it? Which side are we on and why? Hmmmm. Did we get OT judgment when we deserved it? Or did we respond to NT grace? So which should we show the WD and his wife and kids? Hmmmm. Let's pray about it.

Thy Peace said...

Watchdog is basically a Whistle Blower. But sadly there are no protections for Whistle Blowers against Religious Institutions.

U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services > Office of Research and Integrity > Handling Misconduct - Whistleblowers > Whistleblower's Bill of Rights - APPENDIX A
Responsible Whistleblowing
.

Whistleblower Fact Sheet.

Whistleblowers Protection Blog.

Anonymous said...

"What does the Bible say about how the spiritual leaders in the church should have dealt with this man and his wife? Old Testament - kill him and his family and his livestock in front of everyone."

Uh, that is not what God taught in the OT. He sent prophets who spoke OUT AGAINST the 'religious leaders' of Israel.

It even mentions in the NT that the religious leaders persecuted them.

There were very strict laws about capital punishment in the OT. Not that religious leaders followed them or did not add to them. But be careful about reading the OT. Some of it is simply saying what happened.

That would be like me saying that Polygamy was God's choice because He allowed it and regulated it. It was not His choice. It was a result of sin and God regulated it working through sinful man.

Anonymous said...

Dear RM? @ 2:38 pm - October 8th

As a member of FBCJ I believe we should have a "RANT & RAVE" section just like the Florida Times Union newspaper has for people like you - would be fitting for remarks like yours!

Its comments like yours when I feel the urge to use my real name, as I totally disagree with your comments - the FBC leadership group is SMALL compared to the LARGE "Observation Deck" of members who are not "fake members" watching and listening to the "job leadership is overseeing." So far, their grade is poor!

May I remind you that the Rich family may not be members of FBC any longer, but they still are "Members of God's Family" and although I only know them through this blog I SINCERELY CARE!

Good Comment 3:14 PM on 10/06
"WORSE & WORSE"

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:09pm Oct 9. You have been studying your Bible. The reason mega's use the OT is because if they used the NT they would have to be in a servant position. Plus the OT teaches storehouse tithing. A subject near and dear to most mega hearts. The NT does NOT teach tithing!!! Servanthood is something that goes against the grain of most megas. Their egos get in the way. Additionally, they always seem to have a surrogate or two who carry the water for them, except when the well goes dry. Then they go on to new pastures and commence the cycle all over again. Most of this process is taught in business schools...I'll let you guess which ones...however, they teach the students how to deal with their subordinates and those that oppose them. Unfortunately, it has dripped over into the so-called church and has made some megas rich which is what they were looking for in the first place. All they normally desire is to sweep the problems away as soon as possible so as to not embroil themselves in a controversy they cannot escape or defend. Most of the times this works, but sometimes it does not and thats the rub. I have seen it first hand several times. It leaves a bad taste in ones mouth to have to experience it and then try to deal with all the aftershock. Don't intend dealing with it again...for me and my house we will serve the Lord from a safe distance and also save our funds for that rainy day. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Rich: Thank you for keeping the blog., open so that we may continue to blog., our opinions and concerns.

Provender said...

Get busy for a few days and the Watchdog blog goes on hold! I will miss the interactions here.
Thanks, Watchdog, for chronicling a situation that needed watching and exposure. Seeing how the leadership of this church reacted to you, time and again, revealed spiritually abusive patterns that can be instructive for many observers. Thanks for the window on spiritual abuse!

Anonymous said...

Tom,

What's the real reason you have quit blogging? There's more to this than what you are saying for sure. Just like when you denied being the one who had been served papers.

If you expect honesty and transparency from Mac why don't you practice what you preach and tell us the truth.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Mr. Rich: Thank you for keeping the blog., open so that we may continue to blog., our opinions and concerns.

October 9, 2009 8:35 PM
___________________________________
Good Morning,
I'm thankful also that the blog was kept open so that we may continue to blog and encourage one another. Especially to show our love and support to the Rich family.

I have appreciated the wisdom of many of you bloggers - even yours Johnny D!

Since we "pound puppies" have been unleashed and on our own now, my hope is that none of you get lost.

Blessings to all of you!:>)
October 10th @ 8:30 AM

Anonymous said...

"What's the real reason you have quit blogging? There's more to this than what you are saying for sure. Just like when you denied being the one who had been served papers."

What is the real reason you are commenting? How come you never deal with issues about Mac? How come you can only attack Tom?

Why are you hiding as anonymous. Wouldn't Mac be proud of your comments? Why not be open and transparent? What do Mac supporters have to be scared of? If they agree with Mac then I would think they would be proud to be known as Mac defenders.

Anonymous said...

Where do some people get the idea that Biblical behavior regarding reconciliation and treatment of other believers is limited to believers within a given local church body?

There is nothing in the New Testament to suggest that Mac's responsibilities in this ended when WD joined another local church.


All believers are members of one body - THE CHURCH. I am amazed at the lack of understanding so many FBCJ members seem to have regarding Biblical instruction.

Anonymous said...

So I am attacking Tom if I ask for honesty and transparency? If that is true, then Tom has built an entire blog attacking Mac.

Kind of awkward when the shoe is on the other foot isn't it?

Lydia said...

So I am attacking Tom if I ask for honesty and transparency? If that is true, then Tom has built an entire blog attacking Mac.

Kind of awkward when the shoe is on the other foot isn't it?

October 10, 2009 5:47 PM

Not at all. Your logical fallacy slip is showing. You call for transparancy and honesty while:

1. You are anonymous

2. Mac used his JSO connections to get a subpeona not only on this blog but 2 others

3. The 'investigative reports' were destroyed right on the deadline and then Tom's name released

4. When they did get the name they did not try to contact Tom but sent him a trespass order

5. They claimed stalking and mail theft to justify the subpeonas. Where are the post office documents and reports for mail theft and are they still looking for the stalker since they found no wrong doing on that score with Tom?

6. You have NO clue what goes on in your church behind the scenes unless you are in the inner circle.

7. You have to view your own church by laws in the library and sign your name just to read them

8. Your leaders expect you to blindly follow them. Did they mention how they were able to get the subpeonas at the resolution meeting?

Oh the list is longer but you get the point.

Now, what was that you were saying about honesty and transparancy?

Anonymous said...

All believers are members of one body - THE CHURCH. I am amazed at the lack of understanding so many FBCJ members seem to have regarding Biblical instruction.

October 10, 2009 12:19 PM

It is the revival of Landmarkism in the SBC. A great way for those who love to lord it over others to twist scripture to their benefit.

The Landmarkers can be found mainly at SWBTS with Patterson, Yarnell and Mac and others are a part of this. They are real into the pastor being the HIGH PRIEST over everyone else. They usurp Jesus Christ.

Revelation talks about these guys when it mentions the Nicolaitians. God hates what they do and we are not to follow them.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:47. You don't know what you are talking about. You need to go back to Jr High and learn something called cause and effect!!!

Anonymous said...

Lydia,

You are an ignorant fool! How do you know that the stalking did not take place. The fallacy of logic is "The fallacy of many questions" and your ignorance of the the facts.

You accept watchdogs version and reject everything else.

Everyone that reads this blog recognizes your ignorance and that makes you, by definition, a fool.

God grants wisdom to those that pray for it.

I suggest that you learn how to pray.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

These people are obsessed. The blog goes down, and they can't quit.

:)

Anonymous said...

Lydia is a woman evangelist so I'm sure she saw it in a vision.

Anonymous said...

You call us obsessed when you are the one that keeps posting what we write.

Lydia said...

"You are an ignorant fool! How do you know that the stalking did not take place. The fallacy of logic is "The fallacy of many questions" and your ignorance of the the facts.

You accept watchdogs version and reject everything else."

No, I just look at facts. Are they still searching for the stalker?
Why not? Why not produce the investigative report on the stalker. Description, time of day, anything would be nice. Documented of course by the investigating officer.

But it seems I have struck a big nerve and caused you to sin in your anger. For that, I am very sorry.

Matthew 5
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

Anonymous said...

These people are obsessed. The blog goes down, and they can't quit.
______________________

"These people are obsessed" what a great way to go out Tom...I like the sarcasm!!

Jim said...

Tom, I believe you are correct: "they are obsessed." However, don't let them bait you into giving up your "sabatical." We'll carry-on for a while, until YOU CHOOSE to return. The Mac backers believe that your stepping away from the blog for a while is capitulation. They assume they have won and therefore have become more strident in their postings. Let them; their true, unchristian character comes shining through. The gutless, integrity challenged post by Anon. 7:56 is most disturbing, however. The attack on Lydia places his/her soul in mortal danger according to Matthew 5:23 (read 17-26 for context). I will pray for that person. May God have mercy. For the sake of his/her eternal soul, may God show to Anon 7:56 more grace than he/she is willing to express to a Sister in Christ.

Anonymous said...

Did you just say, "They can't quit?"

How ironic that you said that.

Anonymous said...

Lydia don't let the little person annoy you. He is most likely a male chauvist who is jealous of your intellect and spiritual perception. You notice no logical response to your outline. Pure nonsense followed. Watchdog, yes they are obsessed and cannot get over their failure to persuade more converts to their side of an issue. Once their mistakes became apparent, misery followed. However, that is their misfortune. Keep up the good work you will endure to the end and be vindicated completely.

Anonymous said...

....seems like the pot calling the kettle black.

Anonymous said...

Lydia,

You need to educate yourself on fallacies of logic. If you take time to study the subject you will begin to associate your conclusions to the fallacies in your writing.

Any judge or lawyer will tell you that you have to presume that everyone is telling the truth. You have to be a genius to get away with a lie these days.

The people in the articles that are saying that the stalking occurred are not known liars and there is no reason to think otherwise. There are too many involved that are saying the same thing to think otherwise.

I apologize for going off on you.

I just think that people should use their powers of common sense, judgement and discernment. It makes me sick when I see or hear irrational dribble.

Arce said...

For the issuance of a subpoena in support of a criminal investigation it is necessary that a police report or other official report of the alleged offense(s) must have been filed. There is no evidence of an official report being filed regarding the alleged stalking, mail theft, etc. What a good Assistant District (or State) Attorney will tell you is that, without a report, there was no offense to investigate, hence no subpoena was justified.

The filing of a false report is an offense, as well.

No report, no evidence of an offense. All you have is a rumor, and rumors are assumed to be untrustworthy hearsay.

The commenter is an attorney.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of irrational dribble...Where are the police reports made about ,any thefts, or stalking PRIOR TO NEEDING AN EXCUSE TO FIND THE IDENTITY OF THE WATCHDOG?

"You have to be a genius to get away with a lie these days".

Rom.3 vs.4: "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings and mightest overcome when thou art judged".

Lydia said...

"Any judge or lawyer will tell you that you have to presume that everyone is telling the truth. You have to be a genius to get away with a lie these days. "

That is the most astonishingly naive thing I have heard in ages. I know a few judges and have too many lawyers in my family but to chuckle over this attempt. They think everyone is lying, all the time. Why? Because they see it every day.

But keep commenting. Your slip is still showing. :o)

"The people in the articles that are saying that the stalking occurred are not known liars and there is no reason to think otherwise. There are too many involved that are saying the same thing to think otherwise."

And who are these people involved who would ever lie and have said the same things. I am sure they never corraborated their stories. No way.

But, then why go to such lengths to destroy the reports and documents associated with it. Where is the PO report of mail theft. Surely they can produce that one. Just one?

Why not just answer the original questions instead of attack?

In the meantime, here is a primer on logical fallacies I use with my 8 year old:

http://www.fallacydetective.com/products/item/the-fallacy-detective

Thy Peace said...

Grace and Truth to You [Pastor Wade Burleson] > Southern Baptists Who Break the Law, Even for "Noble" Reasons, Should Go to Jail.
(2). Second, when people began asking questions about suspicious transactions at the BFA, those high in Southern Baptist leadership used their connections to discredit the people who were asking the questions--making them the problem. All dysfunctional organizations never address real problems, they simply make the whistle blowers the problem. Southern Baptists should have known by the late 1990's that something was amiss for several reasons:...

Anonymous said...

I've learned that the new Women's Director of First Baptist is now Mrs. Brunson - if true, finally, we have a title to justify her paycheck.

This church should be renamed "THE BRUNSON CHURCH" . . .it no longer is The First Baptist Church of Jacksonville. That era is gone!

Lydia is right when she states we have struck "big nerves from the critics of this blog, thanks to you people and your comments, you are the very reason this blog has international attention. Under no circumstances this story is not going away - too many "Watchdogs" worldwide looking in!

Anonymous said...

Exactly what does a "Women's Director" do?

Anonymous said...

Tom,

When you keep posting comments and then answering them, the blog hasn't gone down. You just don't post a regular article.

And all of this coming from the champion of honesty and transparency.

What a sadly pathetic joke this blog and you have become.

Anonymous said...

And all of this coming from the champion of honesty and transparency.

What a sadly pathetic joke this blog and you have become.

October 13, 2009 9:01 AM

_______________________________

From your perspective, hopefully you are not using your "employers" time to post what you call a sad pathetic joke as many disagree with you.

Note, WD did not say he was going to be "idle" with comments, just the articles he post. Surely you sound like one of the "wine sipper divorced" deacons in leadership I am so impressed with. :>)

Anonymous said...

Mac wrote a book telling pastors not to accept expensive gifts and then he accepts large gifts while finishing up the book. No problem.

Tom said he would go idle but some say he hasn't and that makes Tom a liar and a hypocrite.

According to this logic, BOTH are liars and hypocrites, but only Tom's actions are questioned by anyone and no one (except Tom) questions Mac's. How is it logical to question a blogger's actions but not the millionairre preacher at a mega church who funds his abuses by the money he gets out of the pockets of the members.

That, my friends, is a clear illustration of why people call us Christians "kook-aid" drinkers. "I will give mac millions per month and never question him, but I will question Tom who I give nothing."

Anonymous said...

I'm all for rational dribble myself.

Anonymous said...

9:25,

Maybe he's not a deacon. He could be a former pastor or counselor.

Anonymous said...

heres a little something for you all to discuss: do you really think this blog ever warranted all the attention it has received, both from First Baptist church or in the press or in the paper or "internationally"? It was just a bunch of negative stuff being said, which is no different, to me, than gossip in the average everyday church. If you kicked out every gossiper in a church, you would find your pews sadly depleted. I just think this is all WAY out of proportion to the situation. The guy has been called a sociopath, where I think all he is is a gossiper. Why is this such a HUGE deal, with such a HUGE reaction? I bet it would have been gone a long time ago if it was taken with a grain of salt.

Anonymous said...

Arce:

I always enjoy reading your comments.

I have no idea about your practice background or whether you have read the pleadings in the JSO/ASO case, but I'll ask anyway.

What do you think about the qualified immunity defense raised by the JSO and the SAO?

And somewhat related, if the dectective is found not to have filled out the warrant properly, will liablity rest with the officer or do you think it will rest with the SAO?

I see those as dispositive issues, and have suspicions, but not a firm feeling.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Louis

Anonymous said...

"From your perspective, hopefully you are not using your "employers" time to post what you call a sad pathetic joke as many disagree with you."

Maybe h/she works at the church. We all know how hard the staffers at mega churches work.

Arce said...

Louis,

I do not think much of the qualified immunity defense. Hinson had a serious conflict of interest, and, if there were no reports filed to support his request for a subpoena, then his conflict of interest may trump the claim of immunity. Qualified immunity rests on the exercise of discretion, but one must exercise discretion judiciously, and not with a bias. As his supervisors and employer, the JSO is under respondat superior responsiblity for his actions.

The SAO, by supporting the subpoena without much foundation for it, similarly may have abused their discretion and thereby waived their claim for immunity.

There is a reason it is called discretion!

Anonymous said...

heres a little something for you all to discuss: do you really think this blog ever warranted all the attention it has received, both from First Baptist church or in the press or in the paper or "internationally"? It was just a bunch of negative stuff being said, which is no different, to me, than gossip in the average everyday church. If you kicked out every gossiper in a church, you would find your pews sadly depleted. I just think this is all WAY out of proportion to the situation. The guy has been called a sociopath, where I think all he is is a gossiper. Why is this such a HUGE deal, with such a HUGE reaction? I bet it would have been gone a long time ago if it was taken with a grain of salt.

October 13, 2009 12:57 PM

Your entire comment only proves how morally deficit, spiritually and scripturally ignorant are so many who claim the Name of Christ. I say that not as an insult but as a cry to you to please get yourself in the Word ALONE with just you and the Holy Spirit.

If you think the Body of Christ is involved with subpeona's, investigations and so much greed and vanity no matter what has been thrown at it, you have no clue.

You may have issues with Tom but how those overseers (of what they think is the Body of Christ) responded should give you shudders. Run. Get out. Get in the Word.

This blog has done you a service if you are wise enough to see.

Anonymous said...

Louis,

Heard from Maurillio lately?

Anonymous said...

Lydia,

You just lose any credibility when you make inane comments like those above.

You will never win anyone over to your way of thinking by insulting them, even if you think they deserve it. Some might think that you hurl your acidric insults due to some insecurity in your life.

Intelligent people generally do not lie as they understand the likeliness of getting caught in the lie and the loss of credibility that results.

Some might lie about an affair or the commission of a terrible crime. Lawyers are known to exagerate the truth, for sure. In general people do not lie.

Besides, unless you have first hand knowledge, you are not in a position to determine whether or not a lie occurred.

Anonymous said...

argumentum ad ignorantiam

I can't prove that Santa Claus does not exist.

You presume that Hinson had no reason to subpoena. You have no proof and you cannot prove that he had no reason to act.

Immunity will never be contested.

Lydia said...

"Intelligent people generally do not lie as they understand the likeliness of getting caught in the lie and the loss of credibility that results. "

Very rarely does getting caught really hurt them anymore. Hillary Clinton is now Secretary of State. Bill Clinton is still commanding millions to speak. Jimmy Swaggart is preaching and on ad nauseum.

We tend to rally to celebrities who are caught in lies of commission and ommission. It is all around you.


"Some might lie about an affair or the commission of a terrible crime. Lawyers are known to exagerate the truth, for sure. In general people do not lie."

Or a little crime?

We have an epidemic of lying. The absolute best lie is the one you cannot easily prove. As in destroying records and documents. So, the question becomes: Why destroy the documents? The second question is why wait to reveal what you know until the documents are destroyed?

And PO box mail thefts are always investigated by the PO. So, where are the documents?

Are they still looking for the stalker?

These are relevant questions.


"Besides, unless you have first hand knowledge, you are not in a position to determine whether or not a lie occurred."

That is what discovery is for.

I did not mean to insult you but to point out what a logical fallacy really is. Asking hard questions where there have been no real answers is not a logical fallacy. You are trying to convince us that intelligent people do not lie. Do you know of any past presidents that were caught in lies? They certainly had a lot to lose. Ever heard of Alger Hiss?

BTW: I am most certainly not concerned about my credibility with you or any Mac followers. Nice try, though. :o)

Anonymous said...

"You presume that Hinson had no reason to subpoena. You have no proof and you cannot prove that he had no reason to act."


So where does that leave us with the Bill of Rights? A scary thought.

Dr. Fill said...

I bet the Brunsonites cringe every time Argumenting Ignoramus (AKA anonymous October 13, 2009 7:56 PM
et al) posts a comment.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:26..."Intelligent people generally do not lie. In general people do not lie".


WHAT!!!!
Boy do you have a lot to learn. You know next to nothing about man, sin or liars. If God didn't know that people lied, He would not have made it one of the 10 commandments. There are 21 references in the Bible to liar and liars, and from 200-300 on lie, lieth and liers. But maybe you do not read your Bible much.

Arce said...

I have no proof that he had no reason. But there is no proof that he had a reason. One does not get a subpoena without a reason based in EVIDENCE (hard copy of a report of a crime or hard evidence of a crime or that a crime is about to happen.

Rumor or suspicion is not evidence.

So far, no evidence has been produced that there ever was stalking or mail theft. All that there is is rumor.

Anonymous said...

Thou shalt not lie??

Which commandment is that. Do you mean "bear false witness?"

Doesn't that mean to believe nothing that you hear and half of what you see.

Do not represent that you witnessed something when you did not.

"I thought that dog was a lion myself." Jerry Clower

Maybe I better start reading my Bible more and find that commandment.


Boy oh Boy do I have a lot to learn.

{cricket, cricket}

You guys are really into the conspiracy thing.

Let me know when you catch someone in a lie. Now don't bear false witness in the process. If you did not witness it, then you cannot report it or you are guilty of breaking a Commandment.

LOL

Anonymous said...

How is asking hard questions bearing false witness?

Anonymous said...

Arce,

There are people on record stating that the stalking occurred. Very credible people that spoke directly with the victim...

I think that the scales are dipping in favor of the stalking occurred.

On the other side of the issue is blythe ignorance asking inane and senseless questions of no particular relevence.

Believe what you choose.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

" In general people do not lie.

Besides, unless you have first hand knowledge, you are not in a position to determine whether or not a lie occurred.

October 13, 2009 6:26 PM


The Scriptural ignorance of the average church attendee is staggering!

Anon have you not read Paul's witness of all of humanity in the Book to the Romans???
"There is NONE righteous,No,NOT one;
There is NONE who understands;
There is NONE who seeks after God.
They ahve ALL turned aside;
They have together become UNPROFITABLE;
There is NONE who does good,NO,NOT,ONE.
Their THROAT is an open tomb;
With THEIR TONGUES they have practiced DECEIT,
The poison of asps is under THEIR LIPS,WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS."[Rom.3:10-14]!!!

Jeremiah wrote that the mind of men is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can understand it?[Jer.17:9]

Jesus stated that:::
"Those things which proceed out the MOUTH come from the HEART,and defile a man.
For out of the HEART proceed evil thoughts,murders,adulteries,fornications,thefts,FALSE WITNESS(LYING),blasphemies.These are the things which defile a man[Matt.15:18-20]!!!

As Anon 9:26 10/13/09 revealed
"There are 21 references in the Bible to liar and liars, and from 200-300 on lie, lieth and liers."

Also remember this::
It was the Jewish relgious leaders who "LIED" concerning Christ so that they could put Him to death not the common people who were lead astray by these religious hypocrites!!!

Anon 10/13/09 6:26pm your veiw of human nature and what the Bible reveals about it is extremely flawed!!!

Anonymous said...

LOL...Possibly this will aid you in knowing a little more about the real world and not the imaginary.

Isn't it strange that the real world (our country) requires a witness to put their hand on a Bible and to testify that they will tell the truth and nothing but the truth prior to expressing an opinion. In other words they cannot tell a LIE, otherwise they can be punished by the court with jail time.

Isn't it strange that prior to being hired an employer asked a prospective employee questions and then verifies them and gathers a background investigation to confirm no LIES were put on the employer form.

Isn't it strange that almost everytime a murderer, rapist, robber, or any criminal is convicted and resides in jail they say they are innocent and they LIE about not doing the crime.

Isn't it strange that young children under 3 or 4 years of age will take something and then say I didn't do it. All men are liars...I know that is hard for some to believe, but there it is in the Bible and yet people ignore it. God said it so it has to be true. The liars are all around you. Sometimes they lie to hide their crimes. Sometimes they lie just to throw you off in the fact that a merger of the company is taking place. Sometimes they lie to you because of downsizing. They can put their spin on it, but it is still a lie when they do not tell you the TRUTH.

Did you know that about half of marriages in our country end in divorce and both parties said they would stay married until death do us part...they both lied when they seperated. No excuse, that was and is a lie when they divorced and did not stay married.

Now a lot of little white lies go on everyday which some will say they are not LIES, however what are they..LITTLE WHITE LIES.

What did Jesus tell Pilate...I am the way, the truth, and the life. The fact is that Jesus is the only person that we can depend on not telling a lie. Falsely and lie are interchangable in the Greek text. False is an untruth or lie and a lie is an untruth or false.

You must be very young and have no experience with the real world or you must put your head in the sand and just ignore it. Lying is a part of everyday life. One last thing...the most intelligent also lie. They are very good at performing lies especially when it comes to finance. They are so good that they can take a lie detector test and pass it. Believe me they (the liars) are out there. In the real world everyone is a liar and you start with that assumption from the git go. Hopes this helps you out a little.

Anonymous said...

LOL 10:45 PM. I usually try not to deal with hateful people that do not want to know TRUTH, but in your case I will make an exception.****In the Greek False and lie are the same.*** Exodus 20:16: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor". False witness is lying against another party.

I think this may be the first time I have heard of someone defending lying. Please reread Bro./Pastor Rod H.'s blog., which is full of Scripture regarding the heart of man and lying (an excellent post,btw),if you don't get the picture about lying and man's true nature, then I would say you need spiritual help.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"There are people on record stating that the stalking occurred. Very credible people that spoke directly with the victim...


Believe what you choose."

October 14, 2009 7:32 AM

Anon "Very credible people"?

Credible only in the eyes of the those who chose them!!!

Got another Scripture passage for ya concerning your credible witnesses!!!

"Now the Chief Priest(Preachers and Deacons of that day),the Elders,and ALL the council sought FALSE TESTIMONY against Jesus to put Him to death,but found NONE.
Even though many FALSE WITNESSES came forward,they found none.
.But at last two FALSE WITNESSES came forward ans said, "This fellow SAID",[Matt.26:59-61a]

Police report destroyed.
Conclusion by the investigating member(police officer) "NO EVIDENCE" that anything happened!!!

But out of the blue "WITNESSES"???

Looks to me Anon that we have another Sanhedrin type senerio developing at FBCJ!!!

Anonymous said...

"There are people on record stating that the stalking occurred. Very credible people that spoke directly with the victim..."

Then I am sure they will be happy to give witness in court. Swearing to speak truth. That would include Debbie Brunson who is still looking for the stalker, right? the police are still looking,too, right?

If not, why not?

Anonymous said...

Likely this is not about whether stalking or photos or mail was stolen. It may not be about lying of these events, but misrepresenting these facts to a police office of some connection to a person.

Hypothetical: if mail was stolen in 2006 on Amelia Island, an actual event, but that event is misrepresented in terms of its relevance, its timing, its location, its severity, or pertinent facts are left out about the event, and this is given to a police office to get that police officer to open a criminal investigation on another unrelated event, that would be wrong. If a detective allows himself to be used, and knows the event in no realistic, probable way has any connection to another event, but he ties the two together as justification in opening an investigation, then he perhaps misrepresents those facts to the prosecutors office to get them to issue subpoenas that will serve no purpose in investigating either the connected events, that is obviously unethical if not illegal.

So its not as simple as saying credible people said the stalking occured or the mail was stolen. It may have occured and testimony from credible people may be that it occured. But there is more to the story that needs to be learned: was there lying about events OR misrepresentation of facts about events that lead to a criminal investigation and the prying into Internet records unnecessarily of three bloggers as an errand for the church in their discipline process. This is what the discovery process is all about.

Anonymous said...

"Those things which proceed out the MOUTH come from the HEART,and defile a man.
_________________________________
Being called a sociapath and coward in a public newspaper by Mr. Brunson and Mr. Soud, is what we know to be true!

Public banning of a woman married to a blogger we know to be true!

I would be a "Pitbull" and not a "watchdog" until a public apology was given for those two "credible" issues on record.

The name of First Baptist Church no longer has it's fine reputation - it's over!

Anonymous said...

Arce:

Thanks for your thoughts.

Louis

Arce said...

Anonymous 7:32 AM said

There are people on record stating that the stalking occurred. Very credible people that spoke directly with the victim...

I think that the scales are dipping in favor of the stalking occurred.

Anon:

You have just made my point. All that the "credible" people have is what the law calls "hearsay", which cannot be admitted into evidence. It requires that the person who saw the stalking or experienced the stalking first hand testify or make a report about the stalking, and be subjected to questioning to determine whether what they saw was in fact stalking, and not some fantasy or misunderstanding about what was occurring.

All you have is a RUMOR about stalking. Same for the alleged mail theft.

Anonymous said...

LOL..You are out there all alone in defending LIARS. WWII Sir Anthony Eden believed Hitler (very intelligent but full of the Devil)would not invade Poland or another country and signed an agreement with him...BIG MISTAKE.

BC said he did not have sex with that woman, but admitted he lied later. Wasn't he an intelligent man (Rhodes scholar)??? How about Madoff bilking Billions out of people and some of them were very intelligent, wern't they?

How about the biggest LIE of all time... the Earth Warmers believing the earth is warming up while in fact the temperature is unchanged in last 11 years. As a matter of fact, we are seeing record lows in the West this week.

One last item is ignorance of the Bible when it comes to God's creation. God created man in His image, yet the most intelligent of our society...so-called very intelligent scientists believe in EVOLUTION. They tend to have the highest IQ's 120-180 yet what is their real IQ when compared to a person who has belief in God and His Word. Yeah, not much lying going on with the intelligensia, right. Go sell that somewhere else, as most of those here that support Watchdog if not at least 99.1% believe EVERY word in the Bible.

And what about those that do not believe in Hell. Jesus said more about Hell than He did about Heaven. We can spot a liar a block or more away. In addiion I would not put too much faith in anything coming out of Washington these days. Have a nice day.

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:32 A.M:

You are hitting on the right topics.

We just don't know all of the facts or how the court will deal with them.

If the Brunsons or others who have first hand information of stalking, mail theft etc., tell a policeman that information, that might be the basis for the officer obtaining the warrant in this case (I say might be because I suspect that would be a question for law enforcement and law enforcement experts to answer - the connecton between alleged stalking and mail theft and a blod operation).

So, if affidavits are filed in this case by the people who know of information relating to stalking/mail theft and they say that they informed Detective Hinson about that, then there may be a legitimate basis for obtaining the warrant.

I do not know how the court will deal with the fact that there are no documents now, and much will depend on what Hinson says. Apparently, they were destroyed within a certain time period etc. (I am only going by what I have read here).

But the request for the warrant which we do have says, I think, that an "internet incident" occurred at the church and that's all that it said.

Ordinarily, courts give great latitude to a law enforcement officer in allowing them to rely on certain information to undertake an investigation. I just have no idea what the court will do here.

Also,even if the basis for getting a warrant might be met, there is also the question of whether the evidence presented to the magistrate who issued the warrant was enough. That's where the SAO comes in.

I have a much better feel for how the court will analyze Hinson and the JSO situation. The court will look to see if based on the information Hinson had, whether an officer in his position reasonably understood that obtaining the warrant was a violation of the Dog's constitutuional rights. Again, that might depend on lots of facts that we don't know and the legal question of whether someone has a consitutional right to internet annonymity. I do not know the answer to that legal question.

As to the SAO, the question will be whether it reasonably understood that it was violating the Dog's rights by issuing a warrant based on the information presented to it by Hinson. That seems more objective to me. I haven't read that the SAO was involved in any way with the church etc. They have a request that recites some information, and they issue the warrant. The question is whether issuing the warrant in light of the information they had was reasonably understood to violate the Dog's rights.

As you can see, this is an interesting case that presents lots of questions.

I always say this, but let me say it again.

Try to keep from getting too emotionally involved in a court case unless you are a party. That includes making predictions about how things will turn out.

People who get too invested or make rash predictions usually end up being very disappointed or looking foolish - or both.

Louis

Anonymous said...

Anon.10:03..Misrepresentation of facts.

News flash!!! Misrepresentation of facts IS another way of lying!!! It is manipulating facts/fiction in order to derive a desired conclusion. Misprepresentation of facts and indeed oneself or any other situation IS LYING. I guess to some it is just about WHO is doing the misrepresentation.

Anonymous said...

Again I wonder...

Assuming the mail theft and photo taking are actual incidents, the timing was allegedly when they lived on Amelia Island. Why did JSO investigate? Amelia Island is in another county.

My point is that one can assume that there should have been an investigation for stalking incidents. My heart goes out to anyone that has dealt with a stalker. What is suspect, is that it appears old incidents were cooked up as an excuse to find the identity of a blogger. If the Brunsons legitimately believed the incidents were related, they should have filed with Nassau County law enforcement. Robbie Hinson's error in this is that he KNEW Duval County was the wrong jurisdiction; yet, he used our tax dollars to conduct another county's investigation.

If the Brunsons were stalked, why did FBCJ initiate the investigation? If I were being stalked, you can be sure that my employer would not be involved in the proceedings. So now, Brunson has used our tithes to pay staff to file his personal police reports.

I do not claim that the Brunsons are lying about the stalking incidents. I do not know that. What I am saying is that at the very least, they have manipulated church members and taxpayer funded public servants to find out who this guy was that was irritating them.

BTW:

When you are a public figure, someone merely taking photos is not stalking. If it were, there would be no celebrity photos (wouldn't that be a blessing!).

How much mail was supposedly stolen? Should I assume that when my Geico bill does not show up that someone stole it? Perhaps it was delivered to the wrong address by the USPS and the recipient threw it in the trash instead of putting it back in the mailbox.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"How about the biggest LIE of all time... the Earth Warmers believing the earth is warming up while in fact the temperature is unchanged in last 11 years. As a matter of fact, we are seeing record lows in the West this week."

"We can spot a liar a block or more away."

"Have a nice day."

October 14, 2009 12:10 PM

Anon 10/14/09 12:10pm that was a great post!

Really got me laughing on the "Earth warmer" take!!!

Anonymous said...

October 14, 2009 10:03 AM - great post. I am glad some people who read and post here have a good handle on the key issues.

And to you who believe that "credible" people will testify about the mail stealing and stalking...let's see how "credible" they are when faced with cross-examination, timelines, and facts. A jury might not find them as credible as some kool-aid drinkers find her, er, I mean "them."

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

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Anonymous said...

LOL. The old days of shaking hands with a Methodist have long elasped regarding a contract. Today, lawyers tell everyone to put it in writing.

Anonymous said...

Arce,
The credible people that I refer to, in the articles that were reported on, state that the pictures were genuine.

I understand the court rules for witnesses and they are good rules.

If someone has pictures, saw the pictures, or knows where they are then they are witnesses.

In any event, the people on record are credible and indicate have direct and unimpeachable evidence.

Believe what or who you like. The scales swing toward the defendant on that issue.

Anonymous said...

"In any event, the people on record are credible and indicate have direct and unimpeachable evidence."

This makes little sense. There was an investigation. Now those investigative documents are destroyed.

Are you saying there is a new investigation? Someone has seen pictures the stalker took? They are now looking for the stalker again?

I am wondering why these 'credible people' are such a secret if they know something.And if they do then why destroy the documents, shouldn't the investigation continued?

Anonymous said...

How about a photographer taking pictures of the Sun rising and someone thinking otherwise. How about someone placing an advertisement piece of mail in the mailbox one day. Sometimes our imaginations just go WILD!!! Sort of like the sky is falling the sky is falling. What you see is what you get, even if its not what you want.

Anonymous said...

"Try to keep from getting too emotionally involved in a court case unless you are a party. That includes making predictions about how things will turn out."

Very good advice, Louis. You are so neutral in "Marshalling" advice to us.

Had any 'face' time with Maurillio lately?

Anonymous said...

Oh my goodness. My neighbor was out in the yard with a camera, pretending to take pictures of flowers. I bet it was a ruse to take pictures of me, because I am who I am, and I am so handsome/gorgeous. Plus I did not get my grocery store flyer this week, I bet someone stole my mail.

Anonymous said...

Praying for all involved with this ungodliness!

Anonymous said...

When you think you are important, you think someone would WANT to take pictures of you. What exactly would someone do with the pictures?

Also, if someone were really stalking her, it would not just be pictures while jogging but she would notice the person in other places, too. That is why it is called 'stalking'. Was that in the report?

But we will never know because the reports were destroyed.

Methinks we are looking at a very tall tale. It is a good thing the reports were destroyed, eh? Now the blind Mac followers can just believe whatever he says happened.

Anonymous said...

Whats the problem ? At Belleuve Baptist Church here are instructions how to keep tabs on your neighbors under the guise of Family Fun Festival Ideas.

"1. Family Photo Booths: Make a family photo of every family that participates. Get the name and addresses of the family. Print two photos during the week and deliver one to the homes on a follow-up visit with an invitation to visit Bellevue. KEEP one for your file with the families’ information."

http://bellevue.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=85006

-

Anonymous said...

The police do not make up a stalking report without height, weight, color hair, eyes, type of clothes, etc. Otherwise, it would and could be ANYBODY!!!!

Anonymous said...

To all - there is way too much speculation. Use your common sense. The "church leadership", whoever that might turn out to be, wanted to know who the blogger was so they could discipline him. Period. To do this, they needed to get his identity. They either knew, or quickly found out, that Blogger/Google would not give up the information due to Federal Cable Act privacy protections. So they needed law enforcement, or a civil suit, to get the information LEGALLY. They chose, according to A.C. Soud's resolution, not to pursue civil legal action in the courts. So they needed a criminal charge. Their employee, Robert A. Hinson, told them there was NO CRIMINAL ACTIVITY. Now they are stuck. So they ask their employee Hinson to use his connections to get the information. To do this, he needs a subpoena. Big problem for me or you, no problem for a detective with the JSO who also works at the church. He gets the subpoena's under the guise of a "criminal investigation", gets the information and destroys his file. No way anyone ever knows a thing, right? End of story. WRONG!. Robby gets caught with his pants down, makes the JSO and SAO look bad, and realizes they now must cover for what he did. Rather than throw "church leadership" under the bus, they come up with a very weak story of mail stealing and picture taking and even though there is not one piece of evidence anywhere linking these activities (if they even existed) to the blogger. They try to issue PR statements and cover each other's backside, but the blogger does not accept their weak explanations and files suit.

Summary: The church used Hinson to get around Federal Privacy laws and never thought anyone would know. They got caught with their pants down, their hands in the cookie jar. And they really don't know how they are going to BS their way out of this one.

The rest is just superflous nonsense to take away from the obvious. To "shut em down" and "aggressively confront" criticism of the pastor, Federal privacy laws had to be violated. Having a JSO detective (who also is the personal gopher and bodyguard of the man being criticized) do the dirty work was their mistake. Now they must give an account of their actions to the world. Amen and Amen

New BBC Open Forum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Let me get this straight.

You have no evidence to contradict the stalking incidents. In light of the fact that you cannot contradict the stalking incident, you choose to believe that the victim is lying. Even though the victim seems very credible, you think she is lying anyway. A veteran police investigator said that the there was there to get a subpoena. The JSO and the SAO thought it credible enough to issue a subpoena. Everyone is lying or stupid?


It sounds like you wish and hope that the victim is lying and therefore she must be lying. You are making up some mythological investigation, that should occur, that no one in their right mind would spend $5 on.

Makes perfect sense to me. I'll buy that. Sign me up as an official WD fan club member. Send me the signed photograph and the tee shirt. Anyone that has that much courage has my perfect respect.

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:13..On what planet do you reside? Maybe Pluto, since it is the most furtherest from the Earth.

Anonymous said...

"Even though the victim seems very credible, you think she is lying anyway. A veteran police investigator said that the there was there to get a subpoena. The JSO and the SAO thought it credible enough to issue a subpoena. Everyone is lying or stupid?"

So the stalking happened? Why destroy the report? ON the first possible legal day it could be destroyed. You do not want to go there, do you?

Of course you think she is credible. A lot of people think Paige Patterson is credible. That is why he is still at SWBTS. A lot of folks think Steve Gaines is credible. A lot of folks thought Bernie Madoff was credible. Adolf Hilter, Jim Jones (Jimmy Carter once gave him an award). A lot of folks think Obama is credbile. Hillary Clinton...the list goes on.

Tee Hee...a veteran police guy who just happened to work for the celebrity pastor.

No, they got caught with their pants down. Or, you would be able to see the reports and the PO would have a mail theft report.

No, take off your tin foil hat and use your brains. Stop worshiping man and follow Christ.

BTW: Since you don't think they would lie about this then why are they not still looking for the stalker? Isn't Honey still scared?

Anonymous said...

"You are making up some mythological investigation, that should occur, that no one in their right mind would spend $5 on."

No. Actually YOUR hero's made up a mythological investigation. And they destroyed the files as quickly as legally possible and THEN sent Tom the trespass warning.

they certainly did not want those files accessible.

But wait! The stalker was never found...so why destroy the files? Aren't they still investigating that? Why not?

Thy Peace said...

I am reposting the comment I made here:

From my understanding, for a Civil Subpoena, Google or Comcast have to inform the target about the subpoena so it can be challenged in court if necessary. For a Criminal Subpoena, they do not have to inform the target or the defendant. I am unable to find references to corroborate this for Florida. Maybe one of the readers can do this.

Time line:

11/13/08 - Det. Hinson Closes investigation.

2/11/09 - Blount informs WD, that this matter will be disclosed to the deacons.

Number of days between 11/13/08 to 2/11/09 (91 days) [Inclusive count].

Det. Hinson destroys his investigation gathered material after 90 days.

I am guessing that WD found out about these subpoenas by end of March 2009, as a result of a tipoff by one of the deacons who attended the meeting(s) with Blount and others in Church Leadership.

Anonymous said...

"Det. Hinson destroys his investigation gathered material after 90 days."

Why the rush to destroy material after 90 days other than knowing that your "off duty" employment and being a member of FBC could be seen as being is a direct conflict of interest.

This detective needs to rebuild his own reputation and get another part time job - his credibility is in question as well.

Anonymous said...

...like I said. You have no evidence.

If one is a liar then all are liars. Either everyone involved is a liar or everyone has their version of the truth. (both sides)

It would seem that the WD is the one that got caught with an anonymous blog with hateful remarks that were intended to destroy a church and it's pastor. Whose hind side is showing now?

You cannot have your cake and eat it.

How can any of you blindly follow a man with these credentials? WD did not have the decency to approach the pastor with his grievances in a Christian manner. Instead, he created an anonymous blog at the great expense of the church members and all the body of Christ.

Anonymous said...

Some blogs., refer to a "victim". WHAT victim? Has there ever been a crime committed established. And where are the police reports for such crime? You can't have a victim if there is no crime!!!

As for approaching some preachers for a controversial discussion or a concern that they don't like, "forget about it", unless you are willing to bow, trust and obey. Been there, done that. Some of the most "unkind", hard-nosed people I know, or have ever dealt with, were preachers. Some have very deceptive demeanors.

Anonymous said...

"...like I said. You have no evidence. "

Your hero's destroyed the evidence of the investigation. Why? Why aren't they still looking for the stalker. Just answer that ONE question instead of repeating your cult like mantras.

Can't you think? Or are they doing all your thinking for you.

"It would seem that the WD is the one that got caught with an anonymous blog with hateful remarks that were intended to destroy a church and it's pastor. Whose hind side is showing now?"

This really is like talking to a 12 year old.

Who decides what is hateful? calling someone a sociopath to a reporter is not hateful? I suppose you would call it truth.

See how that works? That would be YOUR version of truth

That is what we call this blog. Truth made known. Show us one lie WD told about Mac. Just one. And remember, asking hard questions is not lying.

Your problem is that FACTS make Brunson look SO bad that these silly illogical mantra's are all you have. So, keep following and more importantly, keep giving to Mac and Honey.

But why be anonymous? Obviously they would appreciate your defenses of them and reward you.

Anonymous said...

Where is Marshall....er I mean, Louis? I cannot understand why he is ignoring questions about his facebook pal, Maurillio.

Anonymous said...

How sad what the anony person above says.

A blog "destroying" a church? How does a blog "destroy" a church? One blogger, who writes factual articles criticizing a pastor can destroy the church of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Hateful remarks? Nope. Biting remarks, yes. Sarcastic blogs, yes. But hateful? I think Brunson's sociopathic and obsessive compulsive remarks to a news reporter for publication are much more hateful and malicious than anything ever appearing on this blog. Throw in Soud's coward remark as well.

Rich has "blind followers"? Rich demands no following. He doesn't tell people he is God's man. He doesn't solicit donations from people so he can do "God's will". He doesn't interpret the Bible for people, and doesn't misuse scripture to defend his actions.

You say Rich didn't air his grievances in a Christian manner. Wrong. He was under no obligation to go privately to Brunson. Brunson is an elder, a pastor, plenty of Biblical accounts of elders being chastised publicly. Brunson committed no personal offense against Rich. You would have PREFERRED Rich go to Brunson, as it would have made it easier to identify him as a blogger and the expulsion process could have been accelerated. You blast Rich for not meeting with Brunson to discuss his grievances, yet you don't blast Brunson for his failure to meet with Rich to discuss the grievances he had with Rich. Your bias is obvious.

Here is the best quote:

"Instead, he created an anonymous blog at the great expense of the church members and all the body of Christ."

Yes, bloggers must be stopped. Anyone criticizing the church must be expelled, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ so harm is not done to the cause of Christ. Puhleeze....

The more you delve into the minds of fundamentalist Christians, the more you can see similarities with their extremist Muslim brethren. They treat those who don't toe the line with their fundamentalist views as infidels, who must be scorned and removed and disfellowshipped and publicly ridiculed - and probably would resort to OT stoning of such mongrels as critical bloggers if not for the laws of the U.S. that protect free speech and other basic human rights.

Anonymous said...

"The more you delve into the minds of fundamentalist Christians, the more you can see similarities with their extremist Muslim brethren."

Actually, they have a lot in common with Mormons, too.

The Holy Priesthood has been thrown out the window in the SBC since the 1980's. Some even tried to get it taken out of the BF&M. Al Mohler was one of them on the committee that tried to get it taken out. He did not win but would only settled for an 's' to be added.

http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/7_17/pages/bfm_meaning.html

They hate POB because it does NOT mean that the hand is more important than the eye and CAN say, I have no need of you. They want that power over others.

They really do not like what scripture teaches and have tried for 30 years to twist it to make them more important than others in the Body.

And we give them money. Are we contributing to their sin of wanting preeminance over others in the Body and their sin of twisting scripture?

Anonymous said...

Taking a break? I wonder who is approving the comment moderation on the blog. Hmmm...

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Taking a break? I wonder who is approving the comment moderation on the blog. Hmmm...

October 16, 2009 12:22 PM

__________________________________

Glad "whomever" is approving our comments that they are still allowing to have them posted.

Hmmm...sounds like you assume that the comments are only coming from WD, . .from my perspective to many "anon" comments are actually coming from members of FBC, but as you so well know that if we post our real name, we members very well be banned or ousted from the church. :>)

Interesting, that the teachers and pulpit speakers have the freedom to say anything negative that they want too but (we) bloggers do not have the same right to question any of our concerns. Hmmm...

Anonymous said...

Maurilio and Marshall/Louis are friends? That sure explains a lot!

Anonymous said...

Put it anyway that you want to.

The bottom line is that this blog was set up to injure or cripple a ministry. In the process, the blog has hurt the church. No matter which way you turn and point fingers the matter comes back to what started the actions. You played with fire and you got burned. The church leaders have a responsibility to maintain security. At the time that this began to unfold there were security issues at other church's that made national headlines. I would bet that it was an easy matter to get law enfocement involved with the slightest hint of a potential problem. You just got caught up in the fall out. There is nothing weak about that explanation. You can still write what ever you want to. No one is denying you free speech. There are no privacy laws and you should have no expectations of privacy.

You can holler about juvenile logic and it makes no difference. You can insult me and all of the membership of FBC to no avail.

I cannot remember any time when I have had to answer questions to authority, about incidents that demanded a 'splanation, that did not begin with "how did this start?"

You brought it upon yourself.

Anonymous said...

Rich had an obligation to go and meet with Mac in the beginning. He was the one harboring the ill feelings. Mac didn't even know who he was.

For those of you "members" of FBC, Jax that are afraid to comment because you might be kicked out of the church--get real. Has there ever been anyone kicked out of your church other than Tom and his family?

Of course not... Grow up and sign your names if you really are members of the church.

A fact which I doubt seriously.

Anonymous said...

Maurilio and Marshall/Louis are friends? That sure explains a lot!

October 16, 2009 2:21 PM

Facebook pals. But it sure puts some question as to Marshall...er Louis' insistence on his "neutrality" in legal analysis.

Anonymous said...

"Rich had an obligation to go and meet with Mac in the beginning"

The whole church had an obligation biblically to dismiss the charlatan they hired. But they are either to biblically ignorant or too weak to do what should have been done. They would rather worship a man and a building than Christ.

Anonymous said...

You brought it upon yourself.

October 16, 2009 10:22 PM

Mac followers never think Mac has any responsiblity as the highly paid role model for Christ as their pastor to HOW HE RESPONDED AND LED THE CHURCH TO RESPOND TO A SILLY BLOG.

Mac's ego could not take any questioning. So he misused the civil authorities. He has an ego the size of Texas. He should have either ignored it or announced to the church that he is sorry he offended anyone and he would like to talk to them. Did he do either? No. Why? Because NO one dares to question the great one.

Anonymous said...

Since when is "stalking" somebody taking one or more pictures of a person? Since when is stealing mail a one time thing? Is thats whats being called stalking and mail stealing?

Stalking is 15 years of hangup calls, car tampering, sitting in a window and seeing one of your family members being run off the road, threats received in the mail, and more, the more part being stuff I won't talk about.

Mail tampering is someone opening your mailbox going thru all your mail, just sitting something in your mailbox, threatening letters comparing you to nasty people, sending pornography unrequested to your house in the name of a minister, shall I go on.

Thats what I personally would refer to as stalking and mail tampering although none of those things were ever "reported per se" to the police. Cause none of that would have warranted any help from the police. how do they say....somebody basically has to be in the act of murder or assault before its considered a "crime"?

Thats the difference between the "celebrity" and the "little people". Gosh, to just have someone take one picture or some mail be missing. What a nice life that would be.

Anonymous said...

The sad thing about FBCJax is how many people have been hoodwinked by a self serving man. But don't worry, the SBC will prop him up, affirm him and they will think he is a spiritual giant even though the SBC is run by spiritually dead men who are in it for personal gain and influence.

After all, Mac was mentored by the biggest SBC con man of all: Paige Patterson. why would we expect him to act any differently?

Anonymous said...

Guys:

Still here. Will still be providing my thoughts and questions when new legal developments occur.

I am lol at the supposed sleuths/stalkers on this site and what they think they know.

Some might even say that internet stalking is an indication of sociopathic or obssessive compulsive type behavior though I cannot say to whom that might apply since it's one of about 100 anons on here who comment.

It is interesting to ponder whether FBC Jax or the other defendants will engage in any discovery as it relates to this site.

See you soon.

Louis