"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Tuesday, July 28, 2009

The Transformed Media Landscape

Maurilio Amorim has an excellent blog post about how the Internet and its new social networking tools are radically changing communication - both between humans and how humans interact with organizations. Maurilio embedded a very thought-provoking video presentation by Clay Shirky, an expert on social impacts of Internet technologies and author of "Here Comes Everybody: The Power of Organizing Without Organizations". Shirky's talk starts off explaining the current explosion of Internet social networking and how it fits into the historical context of the old style communication that we all have grown up with in the 20th century.

For those of you that are skeptical of the usefulness of blogging and Twittering and Facebook and texting, or if you think its all just a "fad", of no social value, or something to be avoided, this video is for you. I have embedded the video below.

I am going to share some thoughts about this video, and in this and a few upcoming articles I want to discuss some of the points Shirky makes about how organizations respond to this media transformation.

One of the more interesting points Shirky makes is that most media (TV, print news, phone, music, video) is migrating to the Internet, and the Internet tools now available makes all of these media forms less just sources of information, and increasingly sources of communication and coordination. With the Internet, we not only get information and entertainment, we get the ability to connect to groups of people around these media and their mesages - as if in the 20th century you bought a radio and got a transmitting station along with it, or bought a book and your own printing press was provided. Media is now less about sending single messages, as it is now an environment for "convening and supporting groups".

Shirky uses the May 2008 earthquake in the Sichuan province of China as an example of this media transformation and the consequences for the consumers of information (who are now the "producers" of the information) and "organizations" (in this case a government) who wish to control messages. As the 7.9 earthquake was happening, citizens from China were reporting real-time, through Twitter and texts and uploading of video, what was happening. Social connections and the Internet allowed for the sharing and coordinating of information about what happened in just moments. In less than 24 hours donation sites were opened, and aid began flowing.

This is quite amazing, since in decades past, it took the Chinese government months to even admit that an earthquake of that magnitude had even happened, and the immense suffering. The government controlled the information. But no longer; in fact, according to Shirky, the Chinese central government learned of the earthquake from its own citizens' reporting before the official Sichuan media announced it!

But in the following months, as the Chinese citizens in Sichuan learned of the government corruption that allowed schools to be constructed to less than code, resulting in mass building collapse and the unnecessary deaths of thousands of their children - the citizens began reporting this through the Internet. Finally, the Chinese government decided it was time to shut 'em down - they decided they did not like THOSE messages and they decided it was time to censor their citizens' media reporting. The government tolerated the reporting of the event, but could not tolerate the expressions of anger and dissent from their citizens over a government corruption scandal. However, their media "filter" methods didn't work for such large volumes of outgoing information, and so quickly, they couldn't "filter" the messages - they had to decide to "shut down" entire incoming Internet services like Twitter. They had to turn it off completely, and began arresting protestors.

So take a look at this video, and in the next blog post I will share some of my views on this "media transformation" relative to this blog and other issues.

97 comments:

Anonymous said...

people forget that blogging forced Dan Rather to retire. He got caught in a huge lie that he reported as fact. But the bloggers had the facts and word spread.

These are tools that will be used for both good and evil. At the same time porn is readily available with these tools, communities of believers are popping up and many resources for the study of the Word including Greek and Hebrew manuscripts previously unavailable to the public. Now, we have the ability to interact with Bible translators on their blogs

Thy Peace said...

The internet is good for breaking down hierarchies in govt., business and non-profit. Common man can take dissent and voice their opinions to a wider audience. There are no more gate keepers in the media, preventing this dissemination.

Example: Recent protests in Iran, using Twittering, Facebook and messaging. The sad fact is govt. authorities can easily troll or net these volumes of messages to aid them in thwarting the protests.

Sources:
EFF > Surveillance Self-Defense International.

Are Iranian authorities more sophisticated than we think?.

How Do You Say "Overcollection" in Farsi?.

Anonymous said...

I see your point about spreading and correcting RELEVENT information. But Facebook and Twitter? PUH-LEEZE! Those are two of the worldliest, selfish, self-absorbed devices out there. Most of what people post on it is trash. And who cares what random non-event you are doing. And do you really care about that person you knew for 10 minutes in the 8th grade? Come on now. Facebook is just "look at me! I'm sooo popular"

Anonymous said...

Facebook puts me in daily contact with family out of state, cousins I haven't seen in years, church members and old friends. More people join daily. Even those who used to be afraid of it come back and participate. It's not going away any time soon. I still haven't figured out what use Twitter is, but maybe here someone will enlighten me.

Anonymous said...

Tom,

And I assume you will soon be equating yourself and this blog to a news organization.

What a laughable thought.

Thy Peace said...

WD this is a really important and pivotal post. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

I truly, truly, truly do not think lot of people understand the implications of that video. This includes Google, Comcast, Verizon, Apple, Microsoft and Intel. And US Govt. and other organizations too. And Fbc Jax.

Currently our internet service is asymmetrical or through ADSL. Here the download speeds are much higher and uploads speeds are very slow. Even though Comcast advertises much higher speeds, they are all incorrect. For one, they are shared amongst a community. That is their bandwidth is shared. For Verizon they mostly use ADSL.

Now why is this important?

Comcast and Verizon/BellSouth/ATT, believe the old fashioned way of media consumption.

Google and Intel, somewhat have been urging a more symmetrical bandwidth, so consumers can upload their streams (video/audio/test) comparable to media conglomerates.

This is yet to happen. When it does, it will totally blow the existing internet structures upside down.

Similar to the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Another innovation currently being adopted that will also change the game is IPv6. This would provide a static IP address to each and every device hooked into the internet.

The current media producers are struggling to cope with this. NYT is slowly going social. They have blogs for almost all articles or they are trying to. That is users can comment in torrents. It is changing the speed of news reporting.

Blogs are it. I do not use facebook or twitter, but they have proved enormously useful recently in Iran and other countries.

But the problem is, facebook, twitter, google infrastructure are still the old fashioned way of behemoth controlling the flow and organizing of information.

The real revolution will begin (or has begun with peer-to-peer music sharing started by napster) when all devices on the internet both consume and produce the information. You might say, how will we know what is what. How do we judge quality and authenticity? We are all learning this on the fly.

To me all this is integrated. This mean the teaching of Our Lord Jesus Christ and what we observe on the internet. We have to be Bereans in a sense on the internet too. We have to authenticate all sources of information and be judicious in what we assimilate.

The revolution was truly begun 2000 years ago.

Anonymous said...

Well Mr. Watchdog,

For a time we were asking for "new topics" . . .Wow, you're good and your FANCLUB loves you!

BTW . . .notice the FBCJ Papparazi
haven't been reporting in lately.

Could it be they "were shut down" because some of the Bloggers knew who they were, or perhaps they simply moved on to one of our sister churches that had article written in the Florida Times Union this past weekend about lawsuit filed by (3) of their deacons - at least this church had enough common sense to say to reporter who called "No Comment".

Former FBC Insider said...

WOW, Maurilio gets it!
I wonder why he didn't share it with Mac?

From Maurilio's blog...
"Anonymous said...
I'm not sure how to handle the criticism I would get if I allow comments on my blog. As the pastor of a large church, I'm not sure it's a good idea to open the door to every crazy person in the world who wants to come to my blog and harass me.

9:12 AM


Maurilio Amorim said...
@Anonymous,
Criticism/disagreements are not necessarily signs of failure. The social etiquette now calls for an honest exchange. It's not that you're going to have detractors in your social media groups, but how you address them and their concerns that becomes your measure of success.

2:28 PM"

Or maybe he took lessons from the Watchdog episodes?

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:53 pm,

That this blog is a 'news source'is not a laughable thought! I personally have 'learned' more from this site than I have from FBC Jax about the issues. At least 'both' sides are presented on this blog and freedom of thought and expression is encouraged. Can that be said of FBC Jax? Does leadership really want to have a discussion about the 'issues' this blog brings up? I think the answer is 'no' to both of these questions...yet some folks get their 'news' solely from what their SS teacher says about the blogger!

Just like on the TV news one has to be careful and understand what is said on this blog may not be true...you have to do some homework. For example, if you question whether or not Dr Brunson really was given a $300k piece of property you can actually check the Property Appraiser's office to verify...like I did.

This blog is a source of news and a source of....well...BS. You just have to do your homework!

Richard said...

Regarding the Anon comment of 9:12PM

Three deacons are suing Bethel Baptist for access to records

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken our people and me? The people who say they were called by you have deceive us with your words, and robbing us blind religiously, mentally and emotionally in the name of Jesus."

Anonymous said...

What makes the church think it could or should shut down this blog based on the content contained herein? Why would they even want to know who was behind it? Then when they found out who it was, why try to hurt him and his family, bully him and his wife and then launch a smear campaign to discredit him? In hindsight, their actions will seem nonsensical to them as it does to me now.

My personal hunch is that one ambitious yes man on staff took it upon himself to do much of the harm and it has now backfired. Don't be surprised to see one or more "reverends" get sent packing due to their "aggressive" handling of this blog.

Thy Peace said...

My personal hunch is that one ambitious yes man on staff took it upon himself to do much of the harm and it has now backfired. Don't be surprised to see one or more "reverends" get sent packing due to their "aggressive" handling of this blog.

I would disagree. When Mac uploaded his video comment through the video stream to me, I knew everyone was involved in this. There are no innocents there in the Fbc Jax Leadership. They knew what they were doing and are doing.

Richard said...

Lawsuit Filed Over "Tweeting"

”Horizon Group Management LLC filed a lawsuit Tuesday that accuses Amanda Bonnen of defaming the company in May when she "tweeted" about moldy apartments.”

Anonymous said...

Anon: 7/28 10:29
"yet some folks get their 'news' solely from what their SS teacher says about the blogger!"

Yes, but some of those folks are no longer attending those classes. Drop out's because they didn't like the inappropriate comments - using the President's words "FBCJ Leadership Acted Stupidly."

Anonymous said...

What is even more laughable than to think this blog is an actual news source is for someone to actually think they have gotten truth and both sides of the issue on this blog. For pete's sake, wake up and smell the roses. Tom is a malcontent and everything he writes is colored by his bias.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

This is definitely not a news source.

Its a blog. B-L-O-G. Short for "weblog". :)

Blogs are for people to express their "biased" viewpoints.

And they are also places for people to discuss each others' "biased" viewpoints.

Like you have just done.

You came to my blog, as I assume you have numerous times, and you read my "biased" viewpoints.

You are also free to express your biased viewpoint that I am a "malcontent".

That is what blogs are. That is the point of Sharky's talk. Its not just me getting my biased viewpoint out to the world, but also allowing dissenters and supporters to come and express their own.

Thanks for participating in that process, Anon.

Come back again.

Anonymous said...

The "news" and comments we receive from this blog., is better than the NOTHING we receive from FBCJ. Unless you consider the slanderous comments the preacher made re; Mr. Rich in the TU as news. Those comments were certianly "biased". Thank you Mr. Rich for your "fair and balanced" reporting.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

The only "news" you get from FBCJ on this matter is from Mac himself, from his pulpit.

I did watch his sermon from Sunday morning, and was apalled.

He gave his answer to church regarding the recent events, and it is that he, and the church are being persecuted, praise God, for righteousness' sake.

And he also delivered the message to the congregation to stop wringing your hands and worrying about the recent events, and to start trusting God, and stop shaking like leaves and stop sucking your thumbs in the corner. So if YOU, FBC Jax members, are concerned over what is going on in your church, YOU are not trusting God. You are to "let God handle it" all of this.

Readers, if you didn't see Mac's sermon on Sunday, it is a MUST see.

And feel free to come here and give your comments on it.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

Dr.Dog I caught the last portion of Mac's antics Sunday morning!

This guy is a master of scriptual manipulation and mis-direction and the author of saying absolutely nothing!!!

Anonymous said...

Some preachers and indeed others, see absolutely nothing wrong in anything they say. I have known several "personalities" like this. They think that "anything" they say or do in appointed and annointed. Makes one wonder how do people like this every get saved. After all, one must admit he/she is a sinner in need of Jesus as Savior.

Anonymous said...

"So if YOU, FBC Jax members, are concerned over what is going on in your church, YOU are not trusting God. You are to "let God handle it" all of this"

My Opinion:
Then it would be good for him to preview his public statment and to follow his own advice and just SHUT UP and "let God handle it" all of this" . . .He is too stubborn to see he personally has done nothing to defuse the backlash coming his way.

The community of Jacksonville see him as a "bully" preacher . . .he's done nothing but damaged his own reputation.

Sermons like this just means more members leaving . . .they are trusting God!

Anonymous said...

I heard an individual on Fox News this morning say "the best days of America are behind us". Yes, and that goes for all our institutions, our rights, and our freedoms. The only thing that can help America now is the return of Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

"He gave his answer to church regarding the recent events, and it is that he, and the church are being persecuted, praise God, for righteousness' sake."

So poor Mac is persecuted as he drives away in his blue jag to his gated community. He ought to be ashamed of himself.

Word verification: Whimp.

Exactly

Anonymous said...

Tom,

Two days without a comment? You must be off conjuring up yet another lawsuit or a cross to be crucified upon. It must be hard being a martyr--or at least one in your own mind.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Whoa...who's playing the role of martyr here?

Did you hear Mac's sermon Sunday?

He most certainly is wanting everyone to think he is being persecuted on par with Luther.

"Mac the Martyr - Part II" - coming this Sunday, I'm sure.

No martyr or crosses here, pal.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Tom,

Two days without a comment? You must be off conjuring up yet another lawsuit or a cross to be crucified upon. It must be hard being a martyr--or at least one in your own mind.

July 31, 2009 8:14 AM

_________________________________

Good Morning Mr. Rich,

Off work this morning and just checked in - what a very rude and hateful "comment" from this individual.

Would say person with this kind of personality would be a great candidate to go see the Psych counselor's at FBCJ for a class in their "anger management" program.

Blessings to you and your family from a FBC Member!

Anonymous said...

"It must be hard being a martyr--or at least one in your own mind."

I dunno. Why don't you go ask Mac how hard it is.

Anonymous said...

Can someone please place a link to the footage of Mac's "martyr" sermon. This would be great with comments and captions like BBC does and WD did back in the day.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Rich, doesn't the truly hateful remark like pervious blogger, reflect well on FBCJ? One thing it does, is show how very "small" some people are down there. I am also, a longtime FBCJ member. I know it well.

Blessings and prayer to you and your family!!!!

Anonymous said...

"Would say person with this kind of personality would be a great candidate to go see the Psych counselor's at FBCJ for a class in their "anger management" program."

Bad idea. This person is learning this type of thinking at FBCJax. This is how their pastor speaks. Chances are this sort of thinking is permeating the entire church by now. The comments here by Mac defenders prove this. They only sound like him. They are taught to hate any who disagree with them and view themselves as victims.

Anonymous said...

So if its ok for Mac to be a martyr then you will be one too? What a pair you make. Too bad neither one of you learned to get along together and advance the Kingdom of God. Instead, both of you seem intent on destroying it. You're both acting like two junior high girls.

Anonymous said...

So if its ok for Mac to be a martyr then you will be one too? What a pair you make. Too bad neither one of you learned to get along together and advance the Kingdom of God. Instead, both of you seem intent on destroying it. You're both acting like two junior high girls.

July 31, 2009 6:22 PM

Junior high girls can get a detective to issue subpeona's and trespass warnings?

Anonymous said...

So if its ok for Mac to be a martyr then you will be one too? What a pair you make. Too bad neither one of you learned to get along together and advance the Kingdom of God. Instead, both of you seem intent on destroying it. You're both acting like two junior high girls.

July 31, 2009 6:22 PM

Junior high girls can get a detective to issue subpeona's and trespass warnings?


Yes, if a teacher or student is abusing them in any way such as sexual assault for example. Only this time, Mr. Rich has verbally raped a pastor, and a church. I'm surprised Mr. Rich has only "suffered" slight consequences for his actions.

Rocgollyg said...

A greedy man never knows when he is done.
That's is his nature and what makes him live.
When he stands in that pulpit he is at his best.
A Bible and a history lesson at the same time.
Quite a feat for a Southern born, Good ole boy from Carolina.
I,t is from this Pulpit , he is the most at home.
It is also from that Pulpit he will fall.
He will ask them to give more.
They will at first.
He will tell them how they are all in this together.
One day when they don't give enough, he will rebuke them.
They will give less than before.
He will take It anyway.
A greedy fool never knows when he is done.

Thy Peace said...

Only this time, Mr. Rich has verbally raped a pastor, and a church.

You are confusing the effects with cause. For me the word "rape" is too strong. But be that as it may. The correct phrasing and sequence would be ...

Pastor verbally abused his audience and also by his actions. And one of the audience had the temerity to speak up and question the pastor. As the pastor goaded the church into action and further abused this member who spoke up.

Anonymous said...

"Only this time, Mr. Rich has verbally raped a pastor, and a church."

Would the author of the above rude comment (and others they have posted) be a gentlemen/lady enough to be truthful and actually tell me if they are member of the FBC of Jacksonville. Or are you a COWARD and won't answer, which is my suspicion you won't!

Your verbal descriptions certainly needs cleaned up as your personality is full of bitterness and hate.

For your mental health suggest you start your own blog and stop reading this one as obviously you can't read people's "concerns" without firing back!

Member of FBCJ

Anonymous said...

Junior high girls can get a detective to issue subpeona's and trespass warnings?


Yes, if a teacher or student is abusing them in any way such as sexual assault for example. Only this time, Mr. Rich has verbally raped a pastor, and a church. I'm surprised Mr. Rich has only "suffered" slight consequences for his actions.

July 31, 2009 9:38 PM

Those who have been truly raped take offense at your flippant use of that term.

Exactly how do you think Mr. Rich should have suffered and what exactly surprises you. What suffering did you expect to see?

Anonymous said...

Yes, if a teacher or student is abusing them in any way such as sexual assault for example. Only this time, Mr. Rich has verbally raped a pastor, and a church. I'm surprised Mr. Rich has only "suffered" slight consequences for his actions.

July 31, 2009 9:38 PM

The author of this comment has provided us with the PERFECT example of the "grace" coming out of FBCJax these days. The above author feels perfectly justified to compare Tom's blog with the physical rape of a woman. Then the author laments the fact that Tom has not suffered more. I am not sure what the author of the comment was expecting? Burning at the stake?

Folks, you do NOT want to be at this church. This is how the pastor thinks and talks. It is positively scary and cultic.

Where is the love, humility and grace of Christ modeled from this "Church"?

Anonymous said...

Yes, if a teacher or student is abusing them in any way such as sexual assault for example. Only this time, Mr. Rich has verbally raped a pastor, and a church. I'm surprised Mr. Rich has only "suffered" slight consequences for his actions.

July 31, 2009 9:38 PM

Your example does not work as one of the 'junior high girls' is the 'principal' and abused her power.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

The "rape" accusation is just pathetic and immature. Probably from some young person.

Sunday, you have a preacher who devoted an entire sermon Sunday to make two points about this lawsuit and all of the bad publicity:

1. What has happened to FBC Jax of late is "persecution" as defined and predicted for believers in the New Testament.

2. Believers at FBC Jax need to quit wringing their hands in fear. Here is Mac's quote:

"He says 'You don't fear their intimidation and don't you be troubled.' Verse 15: Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. You want to be afraid of somebody, fear somebody, fear Christ. After all, Christ said 'Why do you fear him who can kill the body but not the soul?'. Isn't it smarter to fear that One who not only can kill the body but can also destroy the soul? So why, children of God do you run, around, wringing your hands, like 'I'm all afraid, what's gonna happen'. Well WHO CARES WHAT HAPPENS! ITS IN THE HANDS OF A SOVEREIGN GOD ANYWAYS. Let Him worry with it! And then he comes with an admonition...what we're not to do is run away, sit in a corner, suck our thumb and act terrified. Who's YOUR god, anyway?"

So if people are concerned about what is happening in their church, why is a lawsuit filed against us...if they're worried about the mess their leadership has led them into, they're told by their pastor "WHO CARES WHAT HAPPENS". They're told that they should just shut up, quit "wringing their hands" and they should trust a sovereign God. And "worrying deacons" should definitely not be on the deacon board, as Mac has said earlier this year. Members must be wondering why leadership didn't trust a sovereign God last year to deal with the blogger.

This sort of rhetoric coming forth from the pulpit is classic spiritual abuse: Don't be concerned - this is just the devil attacking us. Trust God. Don't express concern. Don't worry. In fact, thank God, praise God, that he is allowing us to be blessed with this "persecution."

Only problem is that "persecution" of Christians I always thought was for righteousness sake...for those doing good, and for those daring to preach Christ in an environment hostile to the gospel. So I really don't see how recent events are "persecution" as Mac claims.

Besides, how does Mac know that recent events are not the "judgment of God"? Mac has preached the "judgment of God" being delivered to believers for punishment of their disobedience. He said God will "zap" Christians who do wrong, said "The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine...God may not have judged you yet, but when it catches up to you, then only God can help you then." He preached that almost a year ago, on Sunday August 3, 2008 to believers.

Also, Mac has declared that God works behind the scenes to "buffet" Christians when God can't get their attention. He said last October that the Clinton scandal, the 9/11 attacks, Katrina, our gasoline prices rising, and the stock market crash...it was all God's attempts to get our attention. It was God "actively" working behind the scenes to see how he would cause gas prices to rise, to cause the stock market to crash.

My point: which is it? Are recent events at FBC Jax the blessings of persecution, or is it God's judgment? I'm not claiming either one - but just want others to stop and think because Mac's own theology allows for either to be possible.

Anonymous said...

Are you going to a post on conservative political action by For Faith and Family? In looking at the resources some of these rich preachers like Mac I wish they'd quit calling the average church goer to support their organization and convict men like Mac to go without. If one is truly pro-life they don't beat on women trying to take care of themselves even in a paid ministry position. James said it best "don't say 'go in peace' and then don't help. My faith must be a demonstration to others before they will get it.

Anonymous said...

Anon: 12:07 PM: "Where is the love, humility and Grace of Christ modeled from this church?"

Good question....Answer

Love humility and the Grace of Christ died in this church when Dr.Lindsay died. FBCJ has taken on a "new tone" since. And many of the current members obviously support it, as they are still there! I have heard the arguments of "why they are there", it's just an excuse or else a laziness keeping them there. I hear some say; "I've just always "gone" to FBC", or "I've just always supported THE church". Well sorry folks it AIN"T the same church it once was. Why would one stay somewhere they are not being fed spiritually? And pay for it, I might add. If one disagrees with the preacher and most things happening there, why stay? It makes for a "bad marriage" in my book? Been there, done that!!!!
I promise, there IS life after FBCJ. And actually a freedom, as one is not tied to a PROBLEM.

Thy Peace said...

I truly feel sorry for Mac. The more he lingers in his sermons on the lawsuit(s) and persecution(s), the more people will see how many logical errors he makes in his sermons. Surely it would be better for him to stick to history and pure Word of God. Then he would do much better. So many logical fallacies. Does he really think all the people who listen to him are uneducated and can not detect logical errors? But what is the need to make so many in the first place? Other than to elicit sympathy.

Mac you can do 1000 times better. Stop putting the focus on Watchdog and the problems caused by you and your leadership against Watchdog. Just go back to your sermons that only preaches The Word of God. Then your flock will be better served.
-----------------------------------
On a related note ...

Pastor Wade Burleson's blog > The God Who Meets Me at the Place of Shame.
There is no need for pretension in real Christianity. There is no reason we Christians have to pretend we are something when we aren't. We don't need to hide our struggles, cover our failures, or sweep away our shame. In fact, the power of God will only rest on us when we allow ourselves to feel the flush heat of shame as we recount our failures to others. Christ is in the practice of pouring out His power and grace on the weak and the humble. "But we have this treasure (Christ Jesus) in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us" (II Corinthians 4:7 NIV). God chooses to use broken vessels so the glory and power of His Son will never be diminished by man's pride in supposed abilities.

Anonymous said...

I was hearing the sermon on tithing...not only has he you slander, he has slandered anybody who disagrees with him. It is ministers like him that fuel peopel to never step inside a church...he has tax-exemptions.. and he stated he pays a "tithe?" That is an absurd statement. Over ten percent of the country is out of work and he has declared them to be "workers of Satan" because they just can't tithe. Slander is the work of Satan....NOT not tithing...

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I assume you're speaking of this clip from his sermon on tithing?

Doing the work of Satan

Anonymous said...

By the way bad grammar isn't either...that is way clarification is always needed as well. Also better way of putting this...accusations without the willingness to be an advocate this would be the true work. Even Jbb was told to pray for those with bad doctrines.

Anonymous said...

The beautiful aspect of the Trinitarian nature of God is that the Spirit of God convicts us all and yet He still an advocate for us. I wish more Christians woud understand this. The mispelling is due to being floundered by Mac's statements. There is book used by him on leadership in seminary. I am disgusted becasue to make a statement like that is a complete distortion of Malachi, which is directed towards the priests only, and it also borders on blurring the atonement of Christ as well as promoting replacement thoelogy. Dr. Russell Kelley even corrected me on this misunderstanding when I corresponded with him on the matter of tithing. Yes, that is the sermon.

Anonymous said...

"Also, Mac has declared that God works behind the scenes to "buffet" Christians when God can't get their attention. He said last October that the Clinton scandal, the 9/11 attacks, Katrina, our gasoline prices rising, and the stock market crash...it was all God's attempts to get our attention. It was God "actively" working behind the scenes to see how he would cause gas prices to rise, to cause the stock market to crash."

This type of false doctrine keeps professing believers in turmoil as they believe their works of righteouness could keep evil of the fallen world away from them. But it rains on the just and unjust alike.

Can Mac understand what took place in Luke 13 and what Jesus said about it? Mac is like those who are asking Jesus the question in Luke 13. Pretty sad for someone who should know better.

Anonymous said...

"Does he really think all the people who listen to him are uneducated and can not detect logical errors?"

Yes, he really thinks that. Most of the celebrity mega pastors believe this. They freak when blogs come along and question their teachings and behavior. They are not used to it.

The internet is exposing them for what they are: Hirlings building a personal empire

Anonymous said...

But to some degree those events might be, to some degree though.... unchecked corruption and greed precipitated two of those of events.

Anonymous said...

and perhaps even a third..it is a speculation (pun)

Anonymous said...

Mr. Rich,

I know folks who are reading your blog iternationally - now perhaps even the youngsters are tuning in. :>)

I would say your right, but do think it is someone in the "YOUNG ADULT" age group, college degree perhaps!

Always enjoy your tactful feedback with facts, not fiction.

For that matter, the majority of bloggers are always very tactful in what they share! And you are right to say, this was PATHETIC & VERY IMMATURE!
__________________________________
FBC Jax Watchdog said...
The "rape" accusation is just pathetic and immature. Probably from some young person.

Provender said...

"Why would one stay somewhere they are not being fed spiritually? And pay for it, I might add. If one disagrees with the preacher and most things happening there, why stay? It makes for a "bad marriage" in my book?"

My observation of people who stay in bad churches is this: Pastors come and go. Some are good, some not. But your friends, and sometimes family, are there and you ride out the bad. They seem to believe that it is more virtuous to be faithful than to leave when doctrine goes bad, or dissent arises between factions, or when preaching is bad. Faithfulness is usually commendable. But when the church becomes a harmful or spiritually dangerous place and your presence gives support to the harm, the virtue of faithfulness is no longer valid.

Anonymous said...

I've been a member of FBC for over 25 years and have never met or seen anyone wringing their hands and claiming the sky is falling. Most people accept whatever happens to them as it happens whether it be good or bad. I don't get this sense of people be afraid of the situations we all find ourselves today, yesterday, or tomorrow. Would someone please share who are these people wringing their hands and carrying on in gloom. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

I have a feeling that things aren't nearly as bad at FBC, Jax as Tom Rich would have us to believe. What we have here is a disgruntled FORMER MEMBER who has a bunch of people who aren't members speculating on what is happening in a church.

Kind of a sad commentary, yet tell us a great deal about the state of the church in America today.

Anonymous said...

"I have a feeling that things aren't nearly as bad at FBC, Jax as Tom Rich would have us to believe. What we have here is a disgruntled FORMER MEMBER who has a bunch of people who aren't members speculating on what is happening in a church."
________________________________

Please, do you not realize the FBC budget is down, attendance is down, and the choir keeps growing smaller and smaller made up with mostly Senior Adults!

What we have happening is FAR GREATER than what you claim to be a disgruntled "former member" and those who aren't members speculating on what is happening at FBC.

AND

"Would someone please share who are these people wringing their hands and carrying on in gloom."

Some would tell you these people are the Bible teachers, staff, deacons, and pulpit preachers who are the ones in a panic, wringing their hands and keep stirring the pot and with their "biblical grumblings" . . . members have eyes and ears that are sharp and clear and who don't just go on their "feelings". We're not blind.

Repeat - the issues and problem's are far greater than this one man you are calling a disgruntled FORMER MEMBER.

Member of FBC

Anonymous said...

"I have a feeling that things aren't nearly as bad at FBC, Jax as Tom Rich would have us to believe. What we have here is a disgruntled FORMER MEMBER who has a bunch of people who aren't members speculating on what is happening in a church."

Speculate? I think not. Facts are facts. Trespass warnings are facts. Subpeona's are facts. Pastor telling a reporter a former member is a sociopath is a fact. The resolution is a fact. The blue jag is a fact. The land deal is a fact. The commercial during worship is a fact....Your tithe paying family members of the pastor is a fact...

And the facts continue...on and on.

You just happen to think they are no big deal for the Body of Christ.

But they certainly are not speculations.

Thy Peace said...

New BBC Open Forum said...

And wasn't Mac asking for even MORE money on Wednesday night?

Yes, he was. Listen!
July 24, 2009 10:00 AM


From the above clip, Fbc Jax seems to be doing financially well. It appears they are only 5% below their receipts, whereas other Florida Churches are about 18% to 25% below. Of course, here Mac is doing another special offering to make up the 5% drop off of receipts below their goals.

Given the economic situation, this is truly amazing. I can not explain it. I do not know the economic situation in Jax. I am assuming the unemployment rate is about 10%. It shows the current members are at least loyal to the Church.

It would be interesting to see this say about 4 months from now.

Anonymous said...

It would be nice to read just ONE post by a person who is in any level of authority at FBC, Jax.

But alas, there are none.

Doesn't that tell you people something? All you are hearing are complaints and griping by a blog editor who isn't even a member any longer.

Anonymous said...

"Things are not as bad at FBC Jax as Tom Rich would like us to believe?" When a pastor states that anybody that disgrees with the tithe in going to the church as "doing the work of Satan" I think there is deep dark problem. That is truly dim thinking. There are people I know that will support missions over supporting a local American church. So are they "so are they doing work of Satan?"

Anonymous said...

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id119.html

Anonymous said...

These "corban" sermons are strange..what is the first command with the blessing the "tithe?" no it is "honoring thy mother and father" which can mean paying a tribute.

Anonymous said...

Tom,

Why no new posts? Surely you can find something new about Mac that you don't like. I would hate for you to run out of things because then we wouldn't have anything to read.

Anonymous said...

August 3, 8:36am,


The reason Mr. Rich isn't speaking up against the church anymore is because his lawyer has advised him not to.
The odds of Mr. Rich winning the lawsuits against the church are slim to none, so Mr. Rich doesn't need to run his mouth and hurt his case and cause the ship to sink.
That's why he isn't talking.

That's also why you have this Transformed Media article, to try and keep readership during this period of silence.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Incorrect, Anon.

I will speak when I have something to say. Whether its about Mac, FBC Jax, or other matters. Its my blog and I'll speak when I'm ready.

And apparently you can't wait, because you keep coming back day after day!

And I agree, slim to none. But we shall see.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Rich,

Your blog says you've had 328,700 visitor's . . .would say you have a very popular blog!

The majority of your readers love having interaction healthy discussions with one another. Appears you really don't have to do much talking as others are doing it for you.

Good feedback to this individual, it is your blog and people like it!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

This blog does not need readership any longer. It's goals were to shed light on what type of leadership is in place and what kinds of members enable it and hold the leaders accountable. The front page news articles and lead TV news stories have done that. The national readership of this blog has also done that. The blog also seeks to hold those leaders accountable for their actions, and send a powerful message to other like-minded leaders. The lawsuits, I hope, will do that.

If the lawsuits progress, all those involved including myself will sit down, under oath, and "give an account" of their words and actions.

That said, I still have views I want to share on this blog, and will continue to do so, probably at a slower pace than the past. As the lawsuits progress I will keep readers posted of important events using the blog.

So this blog is not about how much readership there is or is not. But thanks for your continued reading of the blog and for your continued posting of comments here.

Anonymous said...

I have to admit that I enjoy reading the blog. I won't even go into all the reasons why but suffice to say that it brings amusement to me. I'm totally in agreement that Tom is going to lose his hind end in the court room but at least he's giving it the old college try.

When its all said and done and he's spent a ton of money, I just kind of wonder what he will tell his wife and daughter. All that bunk about "standing up for what is right" went out the door when you lied about your identity and sought money in lawsuits.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

"When its all said and done and he's spent a ton of money, I just kind of wonder what he will tell his wife and daughter."

Incorrect. Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. But if it helps you feel better about yourself, that I'm spending a ton of money, which is completely incorrect, then good for you. Keep your head in the sand, pal.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

"All that bunk about "standing up for what is right" went out the door when you lied about your identity and sought money in lawsuits."

The issues of these lawsuits are matters that must be decided in a court of law. First amendment, establishment clause, defamation, abuse of process, misrepresentation. The lawsuits are not a pursuit of money - they are indeed standing up for what is right and seeking to hold those accountable for wrongs they have committed. That is what I tell my wife and daughter, and my sons.

Anonymous said...

Tom, This is how they do it...ruin folks and get followers to keep following...they spread rumors and lies and the sheeple believe it. In order to keep their position of influence they have to ruin those who dare question them.

I cannot tell you how many of those who dared disagree with leadership were rumored to be homosexual or in some other kind of besetting sin. For a long time I had a hard time believing our exhalted SBC leaders would start such rumors but then over a long period, I saw it was true. I was astonished!

It also served as an example to others not to dare disagree with leadership.

When I read some of the comments from Mac followers (Not Christ followers), it helps me see how professing Christians could fall for such things as the Crusades and pledging allegiance to Hitler. It is a mindset of following a human being at all costs even if that means joining them and supporting thier sin.

Anonymous said...

What I don't get is the whole defamation issue.
You're suing a pastor because he publicly stated an opinion about your personality and mental condition and you think that's wrong.....? But somehow, it's ok for you to hide behind a computer and slander a pastor and a church and call the pastor a pompous ass, and a greedy church CEO. And you use the first ammendment to justify what you've done....
Tom, you obviously have a backward understanding of things...

Anonymous said...

Mr. Rich!
You are already a winner - what you have won is R E S P E C T!

It's not about a "Lawsuit" - it's about restoring your good name that was slaughtered in the FTU.

Anonymous said...

Whether or not it is about the money, money is stil spent and the case may end up being before a non-believing judge and room which is what Paul warns against. You need to keep and keep trying to utilize advocate appraoches with Mac. Minimize the money issue as much as poosible or it will be about you and the churches funds instead of you and Mac its leadership. Klouda failed to do this because tried to win her case based on gender bias. She should have pled Galatian 6 as better basis for her court case and simple sought emotional and financial distress on the matter.

Anonymous said...

And with that Shiavo thing that happened under Florida's system, this is even more important to consider.

Anonymous said...

FBCJAX members who come on here and spew vomit at Tom. Read your comments! You call yourself Christian and want to justify subpeonas for someone writing their opinion of how their church is handling things and the hypocrisy of the pastor.

This is America but most of you sound like you'd prefer USSR. If you are going to talk like this to Tom just because you don't like what he says or you disagree with him then why on earth would anyone want to come FBC? This is how you act to those who you don't agree with or those who expose wrong?

It is absolutely an infringement of freedom that his name was given to the church. I wouldn't be surprised if BBC Open Forum's name was given to Steve Gaines either. There is a right to privacy that was used to give women the legal option of abortion. That right can be used for evil but not for someone expressing their viewpoint? If not you folks don't believe in the same America I do.

Anonymous said...

"When its all said and done and he's spent a ton of money, I just kind of wonder what he will tell his wife and daughter. All that bunk about "standing up for what is right" went out the door when you lied about your identity and sought money in lawsuits."

August 3, 2009 11:38 AM


There was a Barna poll not long ago that revealed that only 4 percent of professing Christians have a Biblical world veiw or are Bible fundamentalists.


I believe it's safe to say that the above Anon's blogger is not among that 4 percent.

Tom don't waste your time responding to every numskull that blogs that ignorantly.We'll see who laughs last and the loudess.

Anon 11:38am better for people to think you to be an idiot.But you my friend have removed all doubt!

Bro./Patsor Rod H. said...

"A greedy church CEO."

August 3, 2009 12:57 PM

Anon no Pastor on this planet should rob a Church of 300,000 dollars per year to preach what supposely he has been called by God to do!!!

To take that much money to preach is flat out and plainly; "GREED"!!!

Is Mac preaching for the Master or preaching for the money!!!

My opinion it's the latter!

Anonymous said...

But somehow, it's ok for you to hide behind a computer and slander a pastor and a church and call the pastor a pompous ass, and a greedy church CEO. And you use the first ammendment to justify what you've done....
Tom, you obviously have a backward understanding of things...

August 3, 2009 12:57 PM

Unfortuantly, what you are calling slander are simply facts. You think it is slander to question such things as a cushy land deal, high salaries, etc.

But wait, Mac wants to be a celebrity or he would not be a mega church pastor. He is no different than the Hollywood types who get upset when folks talk about their personal lives.

They want the celebrity and acclaim and all that accompanies it, but they get angry when folks point out negatives and contradictions? Give me a break.

If he does not want his behavior and words analyzed, then don't be a public teacher of the Word.

Anonymous said...

Brother Rich,

Will you give us the date for the trial once it is set in place?

Anonymous said...

I don't think we should ignore the followers of Mac commenters. They give us a wonderful opportunity to show the callow thinking and beliefs.

Anonymous said...

There you go again--quoting figures for Mac's salary when not one of you knows the truth.

Tom, glad to know you have sons too. Maybe they should sit down and have a long talk with their father.

I'm also glad you're not spending your own money. It will be fun to see how you actually get with this whole fiasco.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

For what reason do these cowards, who question me and defend FBC Jax and Mac, continue to post anonymously?

I do understand anonymity for those who fear repraisal for speaking against Mac and FBC Jax...but what do the defenders of FBC Jax and Mac have to fear that causes them to continually hide their identity?

Just wondering.

But you're welcome to post here all you want, Anons.

Anonymous said...

Your questioning of anyone who posts anonymously is a joke. You have got to be kidding with your last post.

Thy Peace said...

Just for the record. My understanding is the current lawsuit(s) are not about the contents of this blog. They are only of the actions of the Church and the State against the blogger, whose identity was surreptitiously discovered and the abuses after that took place.

Clearly Fbc Jax Leadership can sue the blogger for slander (that is the contents of the blog) and misuse of any copyrighted information, if any. So far the Church Leadership has not chosen to take this step. But I am not so sure they will sit quiet. They might decide to fight back.

If Watchdog's attorney is any good, he would have taken all this into account.

From my perspective, whatever we think, it is too late to change anything. Some of these issues will be settled in or out of the courts between the parties.

My support is for Watchdog, that he gains victory at least in the abuses that have taken place in the process of outing his identity and what happened after wards. I am sure the trespass warnings are also in there to be accounted for.

Arce said...

I have read the entire blog and have found nothing that slanders the church, Mac or any of the other leaders of the church who are named herein by the the Watchdog or by any of the other commentators, although some of the latter get close.

The WD got a lot of attention from FBC Jax and from Mac by asking QUESTIONS, and by posting Mac's statements against each other (a la the Daily Show). Conpright infringement is difficult to show, since few churches actually copyright their broadcasts. Even if it were copyrighted, there is a fair use doctrine, and a particular exemption for using the material for parody or criticism of the material.

So I don't think the church has a legal case. If it had, it would probably, out of the box, started with a suit, rather than using the JSO and SAO to get the identity. A civil suit would have accomplished that a lot quicker and more easily.

Thy Peace said...

Arce: I fully agree with your reasoning. I was attempting in my comment to force the readers and Church to confront the issue that is often hinted at in some of the comments by Fbc Jax supporters. In some ways, it would be good for them to file suit and they be proven that slander did not take place. And also there was no misuse of copyrighted information.

The importance of the above will become clear for other bloggers and will clearly set a precedence in the courts. But I am afraid this will not be brought up. I am not trying to get more work for Watchdog's attorney. But this is part of the strategy and battle plan as I understand of this process.

One more thing. Courts are not an arbiter of moral law. They are only concerned with abuse of laws and rights. I personally felt all along Fbc Jax Leadership could have taken a higher moral ground and "confront" the blogger in love, openness and transparency. But it appears the Leadership decided that doing that is caving to a blogger who was advocating openness and transparency in the first place. I have always felt that was foolish for Fbc Jax Leadership to do that. They have lost the Christian Moral Law and they were forced to act in highly Un-Christian manner. Just my opinion.

Anonymous said...

If Mac received his salary by the benefit and desire of the certain families in the congregation that is one thing...but then to use the tithe to justify that salary...isn't that also returning to own old covenant of the old priesthood? How did a prostestant church ever go in this direction is beyond me?

Anonymous said...

In my opinion, the pastor is a pompous ass, greedy CEO, charlatan. So find my identity and shut me down, if you dare.

And, I have a family too, and have encouraged my children to follow this blog to understand BOTH sides of this conflict. How pompous arrogant men, too proud to follow the Bible, abused their positions and the law to harass and intimidate a man because his blog was hurting financial receipts.(presumably.) They have learned that there are real, humble, God-call servants of God that pastor the sheep. And they have seen arrogant, millionaire, pompous asses, stomping around on the platform and lying to them about tithing, etc.

They have learned to read what a man writes and compare it to his actions. To see hypocrites. To be "fruit inspectors" as Homer, Jr. used to tell them.

The same with the JSO and SAO. These folks are to be trusted, UNTIL they give us reason not to trust them. They now know they can't trust all cops and all state attorneys...especially those that claim to be Christians. They see Bob Gray and Darrel Gilyard in handcuffs, and they see Mac cruising on the Danube. They are learning...to see wolves in sheep's clothing.

I am sure Tom's kids saw the trespass warnings come. And saw their faithful mom crying in the car after church because she couldn't come in to the church she was a member of for 20 years. They have seen their mom and dad shunned by former so called "brothers" in Christ.

Yes, Tom's kids are learning. Are YOU?

Anonymous said...

Mac's salary has never been the issue. We all assume it is fair and he has earned it. What made us wonder about his motives was not his salary, no matter how high it might have been. What raised eyebrows was IN ADDITION TO THAT SALARY, he accepted a $307,000 land gift after he wrote in his book NOT to accept expensive gifts, he lived for one full year in an oceanfront home one hour from the church his FIRST YEAR with us, and he put his wife and son on staff, spent $100,000 of church funds (tithes) to build luxury offices for him and his wife, promoted Holy Land trips, wrote books and traveled extensively to preach elsewhere. It sure made it look like he was all about the money and not about pastoring his new flock. Then he beat up the sheep every week when anyone questioned him, told Paige Patterson he didn't get a honeymoon (despite all of the above), paints himself as being persecuted, and then attempted to shut down and intimidate and smear some blogger guy.

When considering all of the above, who really cares how much this guy gets as "salary" from the church?

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"Mac's salary has never been the issue. We all assume it is fair and he has earned it. What made us wonder about his motives was not his salary, no matter how high it might have been."

August 3, 2009 10:27 PM


Anon that's the point!!!

Jesus stated in His sermon on the mount that believers would know wolves by their fruit;Not by their physical appearance!!!

Your blog reveals a pattern by Mac of covetousness...

The 300,000 salary;307,000 land gift;the luxury condo;the expensive cars;the million dollar house;the 100,000 dollars spent on his office;etc,etc,indicates a heart steeped in greed and covetousness!!!

I repeat "NO MAN" on this planet should take 300,000 dollars plus benefits from any Church no matter how large the Church may be. """PERIOD"""!!!!!!!

That money comes from the people and is for the whole body of believers not the one!!!

This is one of the reasons people don't trust or come to Church;because believe it or not the lost people of the world see the rampant greed and arrogance displayed by so-called men of God!!!

This is also one of the reason the Apostle Paul did not take money from some Churches(though he had the right);Because he was more concerned about people hearing and believing the Gospel!!!

Compare "ALL" men against the inerrant,infalliable Word of God not by style and appearance!!!

Were there's smoke,there's fire!!!

Were their covetousness and greed there's a wolf[Matt.7:15-16,20]

"PERIOD END OF CONVERSATION"!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Mac's salary is set and monitored by the appropriate committee(s) in the church. If you have a problem with it, you should talk to the chairman or the whole committee. Better yet, try standing up in a business meeting and making your concerns known. Blogging anonymously and complaining about it just shows your shallowness.

I see nothing wrong with him living in a home that was donated until he could build something of his own. Perhaps you are a tad jealous that noone offered you a home. BTW, he still has to pay tax on the value of that "free" housing.

I think its great that someone gave him a piece of land to build his new home. Again, he has to pay tax on that gift so it wasn't free.

And what is wrong with bringing his wife and son on staff? I'm sure it had to pass through the appropriate committees and they gave their authorization and set the salaries. Perhaps you are again jealous because you were involved in the decision making process.

Finally, redecorating the offices is an issue that was probably settled in a committee on which you are not seated. Many times committees promise new pastors that they will redo their offices. Grow up and smell the coffee.

I've never seen so much bellyaching by a bunch of people in my life as I see on this blog. The bottom line is jealously and not a "desire for openness, transparency, and accountability."

Get on the right committees and you might have the things you seem so intent on having.

Anonymous said...

There is a vast difference between jealousy and greed. And quite a stretch to make one appear as an excuse for the other!!!

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

""Get on the right committees and you Mac's salary is set and monitored by the appropriate committee(s) in the church."

"If you have a problem with it, you should talk to the chairman or the whole committee.might have the things you seem so intent on having."

"So the committee has the right Biblically to take the monies given by the faithful,that are entended for all the faithful in time of need so as too spend it extravagantly on the one???

August 4, 2009 9:04 AM




This Anon thinks like one who is scriptually ignorant and spiritually blind.And he also believes that every man of God is greedy for gain; "How sad"!!!


Jesus once accuse the religious leaders,the preachers of His day of making long pretentious prayers while at the same time robbing widows!!!


This Anon persons veiw is a prevailing and sad commentary on the Biblical discernment of todays modern professing Christian!!!

Now we see why it is so profitable to go into the ministry::Thats where all the gullible sheeple are...

"And there's money for the taking"!!!

Anonymous said...

August 4, 2009 9:04 AM
WAKE UP & SMELL THE COFFEE!



"I've never seen so much bellyaching by a bunch of people in my life as I see on this blog. The bottom line is jealously and not a "desire for openness, transparency, and accountability."

Get on the right committees and you might have the things you seem so intent on having"
__________________________________
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Sorry, but your very wrong on the "bottom line" part as there's no jealousy on my end as my family has been abundantly blessed. We're working people, educated with "titles" behind our names,so got that wrong!

The truth is I actually appreciated your comments you wrote to all of us this morning as your thoughts was my final "Wake Up Call" and brought me to a conclusion that I've been dragging my feet on for quite a while which is that it's now time to move on to another church home.

There is a lot of fast "growing" churches moving way ahead of FBC in Jacksonville - as one writer stated, there is life after FBC.

My desire is to be in a church where the Shepherd stays home and attends to his sheep - a Shepherd who feels called to be employed full time to his flock and not a "World Travelor" gone more than here on 5 Star Tours that is described as "Mission Trips".

For your information I do know your "Social Club Committe Members" (they are part of the problem) and sugggest these committees might want to be the ones that need to "WAKE UP & SMELL THE COFFEE".

Leaving FBCJ as of today 8/04/09
Oh happy day for the defenders :>)

Anonymous said...

Anon at August 4, 2009 9:04 AM, I suggest you read Matthew 5-7 very closely. Anyone jealous of Mac does not know scripture.

Mac has already received his reward. Ironically, it is folks like you who have made that reward possible to his detriment.

Anonymous said...

Don't you understand???? NO ONE but NO ONE is jealous of these greedy preachers (some). Most of us would not want to answer to God for what these guys do for anything offered on earth. It's just not worth it!!!

Why do you think Jesus and his disciples (later the apostles) had no riches? They wanted to be BELIEVED when they spoke. They did not want the corruption of money and the things of the world to contaminate them. Good luck, greedy preachers (some).

*Some...meaning not all preachers fit the greedy scenario.