To quote our blogging friend, Pastor Rod: "Worse and worse".Above is a screen capture of an ad for Caner's CD testimony of how he became a Christian.
This is from the website "Living With Joy", owned by evangelist and Christian conference organizer Phil Waldrep (Phil Waldrep Ministries). Phil is good friends with Mac Brunson, as Mac has preached at several of Phil's conferences (remember the 4-day marathon in the fall of 2008 in Tennessee?).
Can you believe it? Caner is being hailed as a "hardened terrorist". Phil Waldrep is describing Caner as coming to America to be a terrorist. Why not go all the way? Let's just say that Caner was good friends with Osama bin Laden. That will REALLY sell some CDs, huh?
This is deceit of the worst kind. The kind to make a buck and sell some CDs. For $35 bucks. Not even a DVD. An audio CD for $35.
See, all of the church marketing experts know: very few Christians want to buy a CD entitled "Hear how the chubby kid from Columbus, Ohio accepted Christ in a small Baptist Church." No serious Christian would download a free sermon of that, much less pay $35 for it.
Oh, but market it as the testimony of a "hardened terrorist", as the guy who almost was on the 9/11 planes, and the lap-it-up, gullible Christians will shell out $35. They are dying to hear the story of the guy that was "trained to that which was done on 11 September" before he converted to Christ just in the nick of time.
Is/was Caner a hardened terrorist? What qualifies one to be a "hardened terrorist"? Training? Experience in carrying out terrorist activities perhaps? I don't know.
I don't think for one second Waldrep would put up that outlandish a description of Caner unless he honestly believed Caner WAS a hardened terrorist. So who would have convinced him of this? Or, who wrote this blurb, was it Caner or Waldrep? Hmmmm...
Well, one thing is for sure, the April Fool's spoof about "Willie Mehemet Nazzareno Antonio Watchdog" was closer to the truth than I originally thought!
66 comments:
i listened to this a couple of months back, it really made me laugh. because i have seen all the pictures of ergun in his supposed islamic upbringing and his "different dress-code" - and it does not conciliate with all he says. he was just your average european kid from sweden wearing western clothes.
A hardened terrorist? Really?
Now THAT I'd like to hear about.
Seriously, details. But PAY for it? Not on your life!
Who is paying for this stuff?
Is the objective to lead the lost to Christ? Or is it strictly for entertaining Christians? It's a shame to charge for the road to salvation.
Oh look, it's a hot item.
"Due to recent overwhelming demand, shipping times may be 2 to 3 weeks. We apologize for the delay."
We can save these good people time and money if they want to hear his testimony. They can come here and hear it for free! Oh yeah, unless it's a different version...
No wonder the world has less and lees use for Christians. This ego driven mentality of ministry has to crack under its own weight soon.
'No wonder the world has less and lees use for Christians. This ego driven mentality of ministry has to crack under its own weight soon.
April 3, 2010 10:57 AM
===================================
AMEN & AMEN! The good old boys club is quickly coming to an end. The mega's will have no trouble bringing in the foot traffic, but for sure they are going to have to rely on their "millionaires club members support" to keep their budgets in line to fit their lifestyle.
I don't look for the Mega churches to last much longer - the common laymen has lost respect for these churches as well as for the Southern Baptist Convention. We are leaving and taking our dollars.
So now he has gone from ALMOST-Terrorist to HARDENED-Terrorist?
"No wonder the world has less and lees use for Christians. This ego driven mentality of ministry has to crack under its own weight soon"
I am going to triple-Amen that! And you know, it's not just from the leadership, it's coming from the mega-pews, too.
"I am going to triple-Amen that! And you know, it's not just from the leadership, it's coming from the mega-pews, too."
Without the financial,emotional and physical support of the followers, there would be no celebrity Christian leaders.
It is the fault of the followers
Dog,
It looks like you have grown a new group of followers - Muslims who want to kill Chistians.
Be proud of yourself.
1:58
Isn't it said when Muslims are more truthful than our mose celebrated Christian preachers?
The SBC should be proud of itself.
Anonymous said...
"The mega's will have no trouble bringing in the foot traffic, but for sure they are going to have to rely on their "millionaires club members support" to keep their budgets in line to fit their lifestyle."
Don't hold your breath as here's some more gimmicks of Mega Church's for this Easter:
Cars, TVs, etc
16 cars, 15 flat-screen televisions, furniture sets and other prizes are lined up at Bay Area Fellowship Church and ready to be claimed by anyone who attends the church's Easter services on Sunday.
Light Bills Paid
Four winners will be selected for the "Pay My JEA" initiative and announced at the end of Easter service. Winners must be a first-time guest to The Bridge Church
This reminds me of back in the 70’s when “converted” Satanist came into the church with tales of ritualistic human sacrifices. We saw videos of some sweet young girl in silhouette telling of having to get pregnant and then having her baby burned alive as a sacrifice to Satan. Books were sold. Videos were sold. People went around the country describing all of the terrible events. Church members were alarmed, church members were outraged. The problem? They were all lies. Everyone. After years of investigation by law enforcement each and every incident was confirmed as being false. So here we are in the year 2010 doing the same thing except now it is Jihadists. Sigh. Truly there is nothing new under the sun.
Oh and we post anonymously we because of the tendancy of those in power to use the unchristian tactic of retaliation against all who dare question their authority.
Yes, they have removed the CD of Ergun Caner Testimony from their web site.
But I found this ...
From Islam to Christianity, part 2.
What if you heard a noted terrorist had given their life to Christ? Would you believe it? Today, former Muslin Ergun Caner, who came to America to be a terrorist, continues sharing his testimony of how he came to know Jesus Christ.
They did not remove everything. Google Cache, is still working for today. But it will be gone soon.
If any one wants to listen to the audio, please do so today or tomorrow. I am sure they will pull that one too.
From Islam to Christianity, part 1.
From Islam to Christianity, part 2.
From Islam to Christianity, part 3.
I am sure they will pull ALL the audio's soon.
I will have to admit that Yes, Ergun Caner is lying.
He claims he came as a (muslim) missionary to USA.
He claims he was educated in a "madrassa".
There are so many other claims he makes ...
I do not understand why he wants to lie so badly to win people to Christ. I was willing to believe that it was all embellishments. But not any more.
What a travesty. They pulled the CD down. I hope they put it back, because what great things can be done for the cause of Christ to let people know that even a hardened terrorist can come to Christ, just in the nick of time.
I was ready to buy it too...drats.
Guess who's coming to dinner at Bellevue August 4th?
Wonder which version of his life's story he'll tell then.
BBC, I would love to know how much he is being paid to "speak". Can you imagine paying to hear lies in a church?
and here also
April 15 2010
At “The Awakening 2010,” we are going to celebrate a new
movement composed of many voices honoring Him across racial,
ethnic, and generational lines. Over 10,000 attendees will
hear motivational and informative messages by many of the
nation’s best known and most esteemed Christian leaders.
The Awakening begins on Thursday night at 5:00 pm and
concludes on Friday night with a powerful Liberty & Justice
Rally. Confirmed speakers include Rick Joyner, Ken Blackwell,
Tony Perkins, Richard Land, Cindy Jacobs, Ergun Caner, Wendy
Wright, Lou Engle, Samuel Rodriguez, and many more Christian
cultural leaders.
Word several years ago, and that's all it was to me, was that the "Awesome August" speakers were paid in the neighborhood of $5000, plus expenses of course (airfare, nice hotel, dinner at Ruths Chris). With inflation and all, who knows about now? Still not a bad neighborhood though.
Anon 11:48,
We'll never know.
The above audio recordings were pulled from the website of Phil Waldrep.
"The above audio recordings were pulled from the website of Phil Waldrep."
I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell ya!
Off topic ...
Easter morning anything but peaceful outside East Jacksonville church
Members locked out as part of wild internal church fight
Sound this another Mike Warnke like thing happening? Gosh I hate it when this happens.
Is anyone else having problems accessing Dr Whites site today?
Alpha and Omega Ministries
http://www.aomin.org/
Yes, it appears AOMin is down.
VTM Bottomline [Paul Burleson] > LET'S PRETEND SOMETHING.
Let's pretend I am a woman named Debbie. Let's also pretend that there is a young man, Wade Burleson, who is a quite popular Southern Baptist preacher who says he was converted out of the Morman religious movement as a teenager. In our pretend story Wade is now serving SBC churches but is also known for his abilities in presenting himself forcefully at conferences as an expert on the Morman movement and has, in fact, written his personal biography about his life and conversion to Christ which is selling like hotcakes at those conferences. Several things stand out to me [Debbie] and to others as truth about this popular speaker in SBC life.
AOMin is back now. Earlier it appeared to have dns resolving problems.
How could any of you have ever thought Ergun Michael Caner was telling the truth? Mehmet? Born in 1966; came to America before Emir was born in 1970; came to America at age 15; came to America in 1979 (age 14).
The Southern Baptist idol of evangelism requires that any means is justified by the ends. This is why SBC churches have between 30% and 50% membership attendance.
I really do not think too many of the SBC preachers and leaders are even saved. SBC is a big business that increases the butts in the pews because it means more money in the coffers. Again the end justifies the means.
So why is anyone surprised by the Caners? This stuff has been going on for the last 50 years among Southern Baptists.
Maybe longer.
J
Christian book reviewer calls for Ergun to explain the truth about his past.
http://christianbookreviews.net/?p=816
did anyone ever read the Cornerstone book about Mike Warnke? That book shows what can happen when people just take everything at face value. This Ergun Caner story is becoming very confusing to me.
Honestly, I don't see how Caner survives as president of a theological seminary of an educational institution.
Its strange, because if he were a pastor, the church has some leeway to go to him and ask him to repent and confess.
But if during the interview process of hiring their seminary's president Caner lied to the trustees about his background (which it looks like he did, if his bio on the school's site said he emigrated to the U.S. in 1979 - which I assume is because he told them he was "raised in Europe"), I don't see how the trustees keep him on board.
I guess they have the option of letting this all "just blow away" over time...but they run the risk of secular media picking up on this story. We all know the secular media will not take kindly to a man who they relied on as an expert in Islam to find that parts of his story have been fabricated. And wouldn't the secular media just love to dig up dirt on Liberty University. So the Trustees are in a tough spot. Its very risky to do nothing.
Its apparent Caner is going to try to let this all fade away. But will the Trustees of Liberty? Will Jonathan Falwell?
Time will tell.
And my guess is that if the secular media decides to pursue this story, they will pay some visits to Columbus, to Caner's elementary school and middle school and high school, to find if his story of being so devout a Muslim are true. Was he wearing his hadeef in his school pictures? And perhaps they will visit the high school in Brooklyn that he also attended, where he apparently learned English when he emigrated from Europe at the age of 15, as he told FBC Jax.
His Bio is still down today on Erguncaner.com.
Is it possible that a new and improved version is coming out soon?
Like the truth?
The Theological Seminary still has his bio up:
"Ergun was born in Stockholm, Sweden to turkish parents and in 1979 immigrated to the United States with his parents, grandmother, and two brothers. Ergun became an American citizen in 1984 and currently resides in Lynchburg, VA with his wife and two sons."
The 9 is right next to the 0 on the keyboard. Its an obvious typo, should be 1970, not 1979.
"The 9 is right next to the 0 on the keyboard. Its an obvious typo, should be 1970, not 1979."
April 6, 2010 9:04 AM
___________________________________
Of course, it's all just an obvious typo error - how juvenile to pass the buck on a typing error. Ha!
Off Topic:
Watchdog, was good to read in today's FTU that your lawsuit can continue, that your allegations taken at face value are enough to for the case to move forward!
The 9 is right next to the 0 on the keyboard. Its an obvious typo, should be 1970, not 1979.
April 6, 2010 9:04 AM
This is normal for an institution of higher learning? What else are they sloppy about and let go for so long?
Let me simply the confusion regarding Liberty having this guy on staff, let alone with a title of "president" of anything. Either Liberty knew the guy was a liar and fake and they condoned it (very bad PR for them and their graduates), OR they didn't know it, but they know it now and they need to fire him immediately and reassure all of us that they have the highest standards and integrities when it comes to their faculty and staff.
Maybe VolFan or Tim G will send an email to the Falwell brothers and ask whether it is a good thing to have such a liar and fake on the faculty?
This may of be some interest to you guys, I have audio clip of Ergun Caner lying whilst encouraging extra money donations - thus he is lying in order to attain financial donations from his gullible fans. How low can a person go? Many Christians work hard for their money, but Ergun Caner is quite literally lying the money out of their pockets!!
To the individual who said:
""The 9 is right next to the 0 on the keyboard. Its an obvious typo, should be 1970, not 1979.""
I ask you an honest question, then how do you account for the countless times where Ergun has said with his own lips that he moved in 1978? Before you comment on such issues, you must ensure that you have done reserch otherwise you will end up making yourself look silly - because you clearly have not seen the videos that expose him for the liar that he is.
Folks, I'm pretty sure that Anonymous' April 6, 2010 9:04 AM statement about the 9 and 0 on a keyboard was tongue in cheek. I hope so anyway.
Have any of you read this. I did not find it earlier, though I searched. It is date Feb 25.
http://sbctoday.com/2010/02/25/statement-from-dr-ergun-caner/
Read Caner's statement. It really clarifies nothing, but it takes a long time to do it.
Change Worth Making > why i am for ergun caner.
Thy Peace:
Unbelievable.
Worse and worse.
Here is a pastor who knows that Caner has fibbed to 9000+ at FBC Jax and to Jerry Vines about being "raised in Europe" and "trained to do that which was done on 11 September."
And he chooses to look the other way. He assumes people are out to take Caner down. He trusts men at Liberty, rather than trusting God and the Bible and calling for the preacher to explain the apparent lies.
I might be able to see someone staying silent on the matter, waiting for Caner to explain the discrepancies, but to flat out say, "I don't care" is just unbelievable.
But that is the same argument many make when a pedophile pastor is discovered. They won't believe the evidence. They discredit those who speak up rather than face the evidence. They said "it can't be, I've heard him preach the truth. He's done so much good for the Lord."
The fact is, pastors all the time stand in the pulpit and deliver excellent sermons, while they deceive those around them. Happens all the time.
But apparently its just more of the same. Need to protect the celebrity preachers, even at the cost of truth.
Gee, even Joe Blackmon acknowledged that Caner has some "splainin" to do...
Watchdog, me reading is all these pastors are afraid of The Truth.
They are afraid that if Caner is wrong, then the WHOLE tapestry of Conservative Christianity as in SBC and evangelicals comes apart.
So they prefer to believe in men and women, than in God. All men and women have the fallen nature and it is only God who can make the fallen creatures whole and new.
But that is the same argument many make when a pedophile pastor is discovered. They won't believe the evidence. They discredit those who speak up rather than face the evidence. They said "it can't be, I've heard him preach the truth. He's done so much good for the Lord."
This is exactly how victims of predators in church are treated. People have put so much support and faith in humans they cannot see truth that is staring them in the face. And they refuse to consider evidence at all.
But a willful and consistent liar and deceiver does great things for the Lord? Never mind he is paid well to lie and deceive.
That is an oxymoron.
You know what is so bad? Caner is leading more and more people who are supporting him deeper into the pit.
Here's another example (notice what happened to the person who tried to warn the organization that his testimony was inaccurate):
http://www.christianissues.com/champ.html
Wm. Dwight McKissic, Sr. - New Blog for a Pneuma Time > ATTITUDES TOWARD RACE IN SBC LIFE.
Ergun Caner made condescending and stereotypical remarks concerning the Black Church in a sermon preached at First Baptist of Jacksonville, FL. Caner’s observation certainly would not be true of the Black church that I pastor and the majority of Black churches that I’m aware of. Yet, his remarks were met with approving laughter. I don’t believe that he would have made those same remarks in a Black church. Caner essentially said Black churches do not put the preacher up to preach until about 1:00 p.m. That’s not true. Black churches, according to Caner, take up “twelve offerings”. That’s untrue. Caner further stated:
“… you go to a Black church gentlemen, you are not going to have on a blue suit, you are going to have blue shoes to match, and your handkerchief is going to match your tie, and your whole outfit is going to match your car. It’s BEAUTIFUL. And ladies: when we talk about black church, we’re talkin’ about hats. And I’m not just talkin’ Easter hats as some of you may wear, I’m talkin’ ’bout satellite dish hats. [laughter]. Big enough to receive a signal, with a curtain rod goin’ down the front that you can just pull the curtain across”. [Ergun Caner, The Warrior Church, June 14, 2009]
By the grace of God, I’ve been privileged to preach over the past thirty six years in twenty seven states, at least seventy five cities, and in over one hundred and eighty pulpits or public venues across the length and breadth of America. The vast majority of those preaching assignments were in Black Baptist pulpits. My point is, Ergun Caner may have had a better opportunity to judge the social mores of the Black church more so than I, but it’s doubtful. I can truly say that what Ergun Caner stated is simply, generally not true. As a matter of fact, I’ve never witnessed what he described. If I stated that White preachers preached in Hawaiian shirts and encouraged married couples in their churches to have sex seven straight days, and wore toupees; that may be true in isolated cases but it would be unfair, inaccurate, and racially stereotypical, without foundation, for to me make such a claim.
This is what Caner has done and he owes FBC Jacksonville an apology. I honestly don’t believe Caner meant any harm. I think that he was simply speaking off the cuff and exaggerated grossly. Most public speakers, including myself, have made similar mistakes. However, his remarks were damaging to the reputation of the Black church in the minds and hearts of his hearers. One would expect better than this from a Seminary President. This caricature must be corrected. Jim Richards, Richard Land, Wade Burleson, Ronnie Floyd, and Tim Rogers have all preached in my pulpit. They know Caner’s description of the Black church is absolutely false. It is certainly not the norm. I know Mac Brunson personally. I have great respect for him. Mac owes it to his people to set the record straight.
The Dog's case has gotten some attention in the legal blogosphere this week:
Volokh Conspiracy
Religion Clause
Pay close attention to immunity for government workers that is an underlying premise in this case.
And ask yourself if you want that immunity for the future government workers in the coming health care system.
There is no immunity for the government worker, Asst State Attorney Seigel. Only the "office" of the State Attorney, represented by Angela Corey (who was not in power at the time of the incident) was immune. Seigel will be held accountable. The judge made that perfectly clear. The conflicts of interest of Hinson are numerous and Seigel was either lied to and/or misled by Hinson, or Seigel was complicit and colluding with Hinson. We shall see.
Just read Ergun's very weak response on another blog. Hey Ergun, I don't care how many sermons you have preached, some things you just don't get confused about, or misspeak about. Like where you were born and raised. It is the same place every time you speak. 1 time or 1000 times, where you were born and when and where you were raised, that doesn't change.
And being trained to do that which was done on 11 September (don't boys from Ohio say "September 11th" and not 11 September?), either you were or you weren't. No way to jumble that or mis speak that is there?
Willful, intentional, lying or misleading an audience about such things is not a stumble or mis-step. Particulary for such an educated professional speaker like yourself.
I think your attempt to gloss over this may end up hurting you worse than anything any Muslim or blogger has said. We shall see.
I think I will hold off on any future donations to Liberty until I see how they handle this. It is a matter of integrity. Does Liberty still have any or not?
Grace and Truth to You [Wade Burleson] > The First Court Ruling on Tom Rich vs. City of Jacksonville Portends Some Very Interesting Courtroom Drama.
The problem with those in spiritual
"high places" is that they lose perspective along the way. And those who put them on the paying/ speaking track have high expectations of them. The bigger and bolder their life message, the more people will come and hear. Men like Ergun Caner may start off wanting to please the Lord but somewhere along the way, they start pleasing man and in the process their own egos take over and thus the embellishments (really lies) grow bigger and bolder. They probably forget themselves what is true and what is not. This thing with Ergun Caner (and I have heard him speak and I do believe he is a true Christian) is just another example of the erosion in the church today.
Leadership has lost integrity and fallen in love with the soft side of life that only lots of money can buy. I believe the Lord would call it idolatry. Many in congregations want to hear soft messages that do not convict one of sin, and they want to be entertained with music and drama.
I believe the Lord calls that "turning away from strong doctrine and wanting their ears tickled." No wonder the church is so impotent today. No wonder the ungodly mock us. No wonder young people are leaving by the droves because of the hypocrisy they see.
As Adrian Rogers used to say:
"We give our enemies the ammunition to shoot us with!"
Thanks for the update, Thy Peace
Anon 3:07. You nailed it. The falling away of the church is surely all around us. No hard preaching anymore. Just get a crowd and tell a few jokes and three points is their methodology. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Accountability in the next life will be hard for some to bear even while wearing their long church robes or preacher attire!!! Maybe then they will see their ministry was a sham and all for nothing. To compromise for wordly goods won't be worth it then.
SBC Voices [JASON SMATHERS] > Ergun Caner is a real ex-Muslim.
Ministry of Reconciliation [Debbie Kaufman] > Oh Good Grief. A Response To Jason Smathers On SBCVoices.
The only thing Barber, a Trustee of SWBTS, is doing over at his blog is buying time about Ergun Caner and insisting all the information comes from Muslims so we cannot believe it. He is ignoring all the verifiable facts that Ergun has consistenly lied that are all over the place!
Now, he claims he will go to Ohio with a video camera to interview folksfor himself.
You see what he is doing, don't you? He is going to pull a CR tactic and make this about something else. He will interview folks at thechurch where Caner was saved and show us how that is true.
But no one has denied that part.
Will he go to Turkey and film the house CAner 'grew up' in while there?
They always win by reformulating the issue. They are slick.
The only thing Barber, a Trustee of SWBTS, is doing over at his blog is buying time about Ergun Caner and insisting all the information comes from Muslims so we cannot believe it. He is ignoring all the verifiable facts that Ergun has consistenly lied that are all over the place!
Now, he claims he will go to Ohio with a video camera to interview folksfor himself.
You see what he is doing, don't you? He is going to pull a CR tactic and make this about something else. He will interview folks at thechurch where Caner was saved and show us how that is true.
But no one has denied that part.
Will he go to Turkey and film the house CAner 'grew up' in while there?
They always win by reformulating the issue. They are slick.
"Now, he claims he will go to Ohio with a video camera to interview folks for himself."
Of course, this makes sense as he will have the benefit of using Liberty's finest video equipment at no financial cost to him and make a great film of his life's story - he's probably laughing at all this and saying "all things work together for good" . . .as he now has a new version of his testimony to promote (and more money to take to the bank) His popularity will grow even larger!
Quote from another blogger:
Worse & Worse!
I am so glad I have left this Baptist bunch behind me - all of them.
Ever worked with them side by side? I have, and folks it is not pretty what gets exposed to you.
I sure feels better knowing I am not a part of "those within the Baptist Mafia" any longer.
I have dusted my feet!
LUKE 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
Following Christ, Not Man
Doug Pittman
I believe Ergun Caner is NOT A terrorist, but yet is a Christian. I've heard Ergun speak and tell his testimony and by the way he tells his testimony it can't be fake unless his parents lied to him. I've talked with Ergun. He's a nice guy just like anyone else. Don't tear him or Liberty down because they are trying to tell others about God.
Pastors are sort of like cops and judges in that we have all had to sit and watch people lie to us. We know exactly what it looks like. Caner is as guilty as sin, and his clarifications are just more deception. I cannot see any way that Falwell and the board do not know this. Yet they featured him in their preacher conference just this week.
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