"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Monday, February 28, 2011

Crybaby Pastors Part 1: Thom Rainer Issues Call to Church Members to Deal With Critics

According to Thom Rainer, president of LifeWay Christian Resources, criticism of pastors is harming the Great Commission. Yes, pastors trying to win the world to Jesus are being thwarted by criticism, and it must be stopped for Jesus' sake.

You can read Rainer's blog posts here and here where he discusses the curse of criticism. One of them was published at Baptist Press here. Some excellent analysis of Rainer's post has been written by SBC pastor William Thornton here.

Rainer says criticism leaves pastors with "little energy to do anything else" when they have to suffer through criticism. Poor babies. One commentor on Rainer's blog, an anonymous pastor named "Bob Smith", says he is ready to quit the ministry because: "Well, I average one criticism a day, over 300 a year. It's wearing me out." I did the math, and he's right, one criticism a day is over 300 in a year. How DO they bear such a heavy burden? I think I passed the 300 mark on January 5th, and that's just from my teenagers.

According to Rainer what makes a good church member - and one who is a true Christian - is one who doesn't ask questions and doesn't ever complain. In Rainer's view, "undoubtedly many of the worst critics are not true followers of Christ." He gives no criteria as to what makes a "worst critic" - but he knows enough of the mind of God to say that they are not true Christians. How arrogant. How cultish.

Who are the good church members, according to Rainer? Well, they obviously don't complain, and if you want to be a really good soldier for the Lord, Rainer says you will help to silence these critics. Says Rainer: "The time has come for church members to speak up. Too much is at stake. It is truly a sin to remain silent when it is our God-given responsibility to confront those who ultimately would hinder the spread of the gospel with the poison of their words."

Rainer is out in leftfield on this - anyone that has spent time in Southern Baptist churches knows the level of opposition they will face if they ever call into question the actions or decisions of their pastor. Even when it comes to serious charges like sexual abuse - the pastor is often defended and protected by those around him while those who raise the charges are shunned and berated or slandered. The culture in most SBC churches is that asking questions and rocking the boat is a sign of spiritual immaturity and rebellion.

It is somewhat ironic to hear a preacher like Rainer complaining about critical church members, because pastors themselves are pretty good at criticizing from the pulpit other preachers they disagree with. And it is well-known how poorly some senior pastors treat ministers they have no use for in their ministry, firing them and forcing them to sign a non-disclosure agreement while telling the church "God called them somewhere else" - and yet they have thin-skin themselves when it comes to criticisms cast their way.

And unbelievably, Rainer is calling for church members to rise up and "confront" complainers. He says that there must be a formal or informal system in the churches to "confront the nagging naysayers." Notice the terminology. Rainer moves from "worst critic" to now it is the "naysayers" who must be confronted. A "naysayer" is one who doesn't go along, who rocks the boat, who doesn't get on board with the pastor's vision. This is what Rainer's beef is really about. Specially-anointed pastors sent by God Himself as God's gift to the church, who don't want their leadership, their "vision" for the church, to be questioned by some pipsqueak church member.

Well, newsflash to Rainer: FBC Jax tried what he is suggesting, to deal with me, one of those "nagging naysayers". While it did get rid of the nagging naysayer, the process they used created a huge mess and embarrassment for their church as well as a legal mess for the city of Jacksonville.

And when Rainer urges church members to "confront" complainers, I just couldn't help but think of Mac Brunson's infamous "shut 'em down" quote in the pulpit just a few days before the President of the Trustees stood in a special business meeting on 2/25/09 to read his "Deacon's Resolution 2009-1", which included this quote:

"And whereas it is the belief and expression of the deacons herein that division, strife, and discord caused to church members and unjust criticism and ridicule of the ministry, staff, leadership, pastor, and people expressed to the general public at large in any form and by any means by any member of the church should be viewed as an attack against the Lord's church contrary to scriptural truth and confronted aggressively in accordance with Scripture and the disciplinary provisions of the bylaws of the church."

Yep, FBC Jax has already declared that unjust criticism and ridicule, is "an attack against the Lord's church", and should be "confronted aggressively".

See, you're a little late to the game, Thom. FBC Jax is "cutting edge", and they already laid out the path you are suggesting and they executed it masterfully in 2008 and 2009.

Stay tuned Wednesday for Part 2: A naysayer's advice to crybaby pastors.

122 comments:

Anonymous said...

Wonder what these poor crybaby pastors are going to do when real persecution comes?

Talk about thin skinned. Perhaps they need to work in the real world and see how long they last.

But what is even more interesting is that they expect people to pay and never question them. Sounds Monarchist to me.

Anonymous said...

Anyone else notice that Baptist Press (SBC) does not take comments. But their so called liberal opposite, ABP, does take comments.

What Rainer is saying fits in with your former post on Mohler. They do not care what we have to say because we are ignorant pew sitters and they are God appointed.

What is even more clear is that people better delve into the Word. See, according to Rainer, Paul was in huge sin for publicly confronting Peter for wrong behavior.

The Greenhouse Effect said...

These pastors do not want criticism. They just want to be able to continue with their greed and empire building. Members should stand up against that, so the church can get back to doing God's work.

Anonymous said...

Yesterday when Brunson after Brunsons introduction to the Politicians who pop in only at election time he stated (with a sour look) for the life of him he didn't understand why anyone would go in into the ministry or politics these days because "it's a brutal world" out there.

I immediately thought "why would anyone want to be in the military' or on the "police force" . . .they know what real brutality is. Yes, they are crybabies, have cushy employment & the common folks are now seeing them for for they hard and we are speaking out, just like they have done for years.

Brunson now on his annual "Brunson" family vacation trip to Israel - empty church again Sunday evening. Yes, they are thin skinned - they should work in the real world!

Anonymous said...

if you're busy rowing the boat, then you don't have time to rock it.

Lynn said...

I know it's no fun to be criticized, but critics sometimes give you valuable feedback that should be carefully considered.

When someone says pastors should be carefully guarded from any criticism, that's kinda scary to me. Some criticisms are legitimate. Don't we all value friends who are willing to tell us hard truths about ourselves sometimes?

Lynn said...

By the way, aren't those on the Israel trip expected to be much more spiritual when they return? Wasn't that the way it was promoted?

Anonymous said...

Just a note that the dynamic of these criticisms and their effect varies. It's not the same for a smaller church and a megachurch. In smaller churches it has a much greater impact - usually negative. Not sure if Ranier is thinking in those terms.

Anonymous said...

if you're busy rowing the boat, then you don't have time to rock it.

February 28, 2011 8:15 AM

We have paid professional Christians who are rowing for us.

Anonymous said...

When someone says pastors should be carefully guarded from any criticism, that's kinda scary to me. Some criticisms are legitimate. Don't we all value friends who are willing to tell us hard truths about ourselves sometimes?

February 28, 2011 8:32 AM

It IS Monarchist. It was against the law to criticize the king. we have seen blogging resolutions and even our current NAMB president insult bloggers. they want to make it a sin to dare question them because they cannot make it illegal. They would if they could.

That is how far from NT truth they are and why we should not be listening to any of them. What do they know of real life? And they expect to teach us to live as Christians in the "world"?

I would pay money to see Brunson go to work each morning and report to a Lesbian boss. How would have a mortgage to pay and would have to think twice about quitting. Or How about Mohler having to work for a tyrant who throws fits all the time like he does?

They are spoiled babies and we allowed it to happen by worshiping them instead of Christ.

The answer? Quite giving them money.

Anonymous said...

"Not sure if Ranier is thinking in those terms."

Rainer is thinking in terms of you daring to question anyone with a Christenese title. Does not matter the size of the church. It is just easier to hide evil, arrogance and greed in a mega.

People forget that their very foundational thinking is in terms of their authority. They do not know anything else.

WishIhadknown said...

One critism a day and over 300 in a year. Wow! I'm happy if I go an hour without a critism. These guys need to get out of their churches more!

turnureyesonJC said...

It takes no size to criticize!

Help me understand all this....

God gives us Pastors (Eph. 4)

God calls us to pray and obey those in authority over us. (Heb 13:17)

We are to honor our Pastors. (1st Tim 5:17)

It's amazing how little Bible that Dog quotes....do you REALLY believe the Bible?

Anonymous said...

"The culture in most SBC churches is that asking questions and rocking the boat is a sign of spiritual immaturity and rebellion."

In most???

Let's see, we have about 42,000 churches and for your statement to be correct that would mean 21,001 would have to fit your criteria. Are you playing word games or just trying to make a point by stretching the truth (lying)?

"Rainer is calling for church members to rise up and "confront" complainers."

AMEN & AMEN

WishIhadknown said...

Anonymous said...
if you're busy rowing the boat, then you don't have time to rock it.

February 28, 2011 8:15 AM

but if everyone rows from the same side of the boat, even though it is in perfect and total harmony, you never go anywhere except in a circle.

Andy said...

The entire hierarchichal, man made system of 'the church' (notice little 'c') makes me sick to my stomach. One time I was contacted by a staff person from a church 'not as pastor but as director of security' for an action where I was guilty by association to a person that unveiled the true nature of the pastor's heart!

A great majority of the 'pastors' in America's churches have sanctified their own greed and lifestyle. I pray that The Truth, Jesus Christ as Life, will be supernaturally revealed and there will be reformation in our selfish/entertainment venues that are passed off as 'the Lord's church' .....

MJ said...

Just a question. Why do some people WANT, seem to DESIRE, and RELISH in causing turmoil in the heart of a good pastor?

I didn't say, "any pastor", but the good ones?

Criticism is one thing, What is going on here is not criticism.

The people on this blog never distinguish between the good ones and the bad ones, and it seems from the outside looking in, all they want is someone to rant on, jeer, demean, and call names.

"Wonder what these poor crybaby pastors are going to do when real persecution comes." - Are you serious? Where do you think persecution starts? With the relentless, merciless mean spirited vitriol that gets aimed at them for doing what the Bible has instructed them to do. It doesn't have to be physically violent to be a form of persecution.

The truth is, that when a Pastor rightly rebukes from scripture, these people pull a slick willy,and revert back to their, "He's twisting scripture, Scripture doesn't say what he says it saying."

The fact is that when someone is "rightly" confronted with scripture, you'll quickly tell what is in them. They will either surrender to the authority of the Word.(If their spirit is right) Or, they'll turn on the messenger and accuse him of abusive misinterpretation. That is their categoric "out" that is always, always, used when pinned down by the truth. They'll use it in every single situation to justify their behavior.

Paul instructed us "To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men."

No amount of "terrible pastoring" justifies ignoring that instruction.

Sheep do not attack shepherds, wolves do.

Rainer is Right.

Anonymous said...

"Wonder what these poor crybaby pastors are going to do when real persecution comes?"

Most of us, God loving, church supporting, gospel sharing pew people won't be around to see it but I will be glad to start praying for you that you will come to what is necessary so you don't have to find out either.

WishIhadknown said...

Wolves attack sheep not shepards.

Anonymous said...

These guys need to get out of their churches more!

WishIhadknown, Just wait until these cry babies make their visit to the judgment. Of course, they probably think they will escape and who knows they just might. Is appears to be a place on this earth for them as they relish their earthly comfort. Getting out is analogous to getting saved.

Anonymous said...

WD-
I am a pastor, and I agree that dealing with "ridiculous" criticism (it's too cold, you preached too long, I didn't like a particular song, I only want hymns or choruses sung, etc) does wear a pastor out.
However, when I have been criticized for my attitude or actions it usually ends up driving me to Jesus and repenting to Him and asking forgiveness of the one whom brought it to my attention.
Legitimate criticism is necessary to hold us accountable (is that a bad word among pastors?). Unlike Rainer, I think that a worthy church member is one who is like the Bereans, searching the scriptures daily (Acts 17:11).
Or better yet as John wrote "If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship one with another..." 1 JN 1:7
Kyle

Anonymous said...

Help me understand all this....

God gives us Pastors (Eph. 4)

God calls us to pray and obey those in authority over us. (Heb 13:17)

We are to honor our Pastors. (1st Tim 5:17)

It's amazing how little Bible that Dog quotes....do you REALLY believe the Bible?

February 28, 2011 10:50 AM

It is amazing how little you understand context. Pastor is mentioned once in the NT and is a function not an office in the Body.

Hebrews 13:17 is a horrible translation and totally misapplied. I guess according to your interpretation we must obey whoever our leader is even if he becomes a false teacher or cult leader. After all, we must obey. We must obey Diotrephes, right?

Now to "rule over you":

This is the part of verse 17 that really shows the bias and intent of the translators. "Have the rule over you" (KJV) was given as the meaning of hegeomai. It is used 28 times in the New Testament and translated variously as "count," "think," "esteem," "be governor," and other miscellaneous words such as "chief' and "leader."


If you did some serious study you would know the translators...laboring under a church state and divine king...chose seldom used Greek meanings for that passage.

If the Holy Spirit wanted to convey the idea that Elders (Bishops) (or today also called pastors) had the authority that they now claim, He would have used the Greek word arche, which translates into "rule" or "power." One who had the authority to rule was archon, "a ruler" or "a magistrate.' By choosing hegeomai the Holy Spirit indicated that these men who "watch(ed) in behalf of your souls", were the leaders among them.


STUDY to show yourself approved. You are not approved. You simply parrot what you are told by those who benefit from the bad translation.

Anonymous said...

"We are to honor our Pastors. (1st Tim 5:17)"

Actually, that passage is referring to elders.What we term has "pastor" today is a man made function. Anyone can "pastor" another. It could be the little old lady in the church kitchen.


And only if they serve well as lowly servants who are spiritually mature. It would be folly and sin to give "double honor" to the spiritually immature, greedy, arrogant charlatans we see today just because they hold a man conferred title. Very cult of personality.

All TRUE believers are in the priesthood and are gifted by the Holy Spirit to function. The functions are NOT static.
All are equal. The hand cannot say to the eye, I have no need of you.

Quit worshiping the institution made by man.

Anonymous said...

"Wonder what these poor crybaby pastors are going to do when real persecution comes." - Are you serious? Where do you think persecution starts? With the relentless, merciless mean spirited vitriol that gets aimed at them for doing what the Bible has instructed them to do. It doesn't have to be physically violent to be a form of persecution."

Ok, so now Obama is "persecuted". I get it.

Anonymous said...

"The fact is that when someone is "rightly" confronted with scripture, you'll quickly tell what is in them. They will either surrender to the authority of the Word.(If their spirit is right) Or, they'll turn on the messenger and accuse him of abusive misinterpretation. That is their categoric "out" that is always, always, used when pinned down by the truth. They'll use it in every single situation to justify their behavior."

You only prove by this that you follow whatever the guy on stage with a title says as being the truth of the Word. Poor you. One of the ignorant pew sitters Mohler was talking about.

Paul commended the Bereans for questioning him and searching for themselves.

Anonymous said...

"The people on this blog never distinguish between the good ones and the bad ones, and it seems from the outside looking in, all they want is someone to rant on, jeer, demean, and call names."

The good ones are not celebrities. They have calloused knees, are not published and doing paid speaking gigs all over the place. they are most likely not even paid to shepherd others but do it because of their love for new believers.

they serve others in humility and grace. Many here do not understand the function of "pastoring" at all.

You will hear about these nobodies laboring in the Kingdom on J-Day.

Anonymous said...

"Sheep do not attack shepherds, wolves do."

Interesting. Wolves have perceived power. Wolves draw folks away to themselves. They want power over the sheep.

So, the guy with the stage every week who speaks to the crowds has no power...no influence? I have seen this tactic many times. They become crybabies, as Tom said.

When it is convenient, they have power and influence. When they are questioned, they are poor nobodies working themselves to death. We have heard it all before. They expect the people who pay them to shut up and obey them.

More importantly, many of the "pastors" we see today are really hirlings. Not all but many. Most are wolves who have gotten caught up in the man made system and think this is normal NT teaching. It isn't.

Anonymous said...

"Paul instructed us "To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men."

Paul rebuked Peter publicly. He also told the Judaizers to "emasculate" themselves. He also said some pretty nasty things about Hy and Al in 1 Tim.

So, who gets to decide what is meek and gentle? You? A pastor who is being questioned? One of the oldest tricks in the book is for the pastor to say he does not like HOW you said something so he is going to ignore the CONTENT.

Not only are they crybabies but they adapted the tactics of liberals in the public arena who want to shut up their opponets with means of censorship...calling certain speech sin. The liberals call it hate speech.

WishIhadknown said...

Kyle, thank you, I think your post is right on and thank you for your service as pastor.

Anonymous said...

"We are to honor our Pastors. (1st Tim 5:17)"


I am having a hard time thing of a pastor I know. I guess I could consider Dr Mac Brunson. However, he is much more like a corporate boss who goes to work constantly thinking about the bottom line. No I think he is a plot actor. But he has a warm bodied individual. I think I love him. However that Is not going to get me to the heavenly realm.

Anonymous said...

Most of us, God loving, church supporting, gospel sharing pew people won't be around to see it but I will be glad to start praying for you that you will come to what is necessary so you don't have to find out either.

February 28, 2011 12:33 PM

Sorry, but those of us who labor in the REAL world everyday deal with criticism, backstabbing and all sorts of plots and intriques every day. We do not consider that "persecution" but just being in the world but not of the world.

Pastors have no clue. They live in a bubble where they expect people to follow them and call criticism, persecution? It only shows how insulated they are. Clueless. And they purport to tell us how to live in a world they do not live in. From insultated seminary to church...they have little experience in real world. Most who work in a real job in seminary cannot wait to get out of them. I can understand why. No accountability and they get to be the big guy on stage everyone listens to.

You better bet I listen to the criticism of those who pay me. The paid pastor is really an employee of those who pay him. Now, if he wants to function as a pastor in the NT sense, then he would not only be a humble servant who is spiritually mature but would not expect to make a living off it.

And please do not quote 1 Tim to me. It is not talking about wages but "honor" to those who "serve" well.

Anonymous said...

" he would not only be a humble servant who is spiritually mature but would not expect to make a living off it. "

We don't need 1 Timothy since you discard it. I'll give you Paul in 1 Corinthians.

Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. 1 Cor. 9:14 (KJV)

Preachers, according to scripture, should make a living of being a preacher.

I either have shown you what you ought to believe. Though Paul chose not to receive such. You will either believe it or you can give me your address and I will send you a pair of scissors to cut another passage, which you want to deny, out.

Anonymous said...

This is 'par for the course' in churches that are being 'transitioned' to Rick Warren-esque, seeker sensitive strategies. If you disagree with it and leave for any reason other than major physical relocation, then prepare to have 'old pastor' call 'new pastor' and tell them you're a troublemaker. It's straight out of Ch. 6 in the book 'Transitions' authored by Dan Southerland, an associate of Rick Warren's. It's just evil, plain and simple. I fear it's about to happen to me and my family, as we've pulled out of a small Baptist fellowship that is being stealth transitioned by a hireling.

WishIhadknown said...

Anon 4:31 PM
My prayers are with you and your family. May god be with you and bless you.

Anonymous said...

Crybabies?

That's right.

Kick 'em hard, call them names, demoralize, demonize, and castigate them, discredit them,
say all you want to about them,
and then when they don't like it they're crybabies.

There was a moron that lived down the street from me once, that treated a friend of mine like that.

He would beat up my friend, and then blame him for bleeding, and ridiculed him for not taking it like a man.

We were about 8.

Where in the world does anyone get the idea that honest hardworking pastors who are fallible and imperfect should "take it, like it, and not do anything about it." That would be a "sissy", or a "panzy" not a "pastor."

Good grief!- how do you expect them to respond to people with this sarcastic cynical attitude? say amen?

Should they fall down, and beg for mercy?

Slap 'em, and blame 'em for saying ouch, that's for sure the Christian way to handle disagreements, and get the upper hand!

Crybabies?

good grief.

Anonymous said...

Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. 1 Cor. 9:14 (KJV)


Sorry but I am having a diffiCULT time understanding the spiritual message of this passage. Or is there one?

Anonymous said...

"Good grief!- how do you expect them to respond to people with this sarcastic cynical attitude? say amen?"

Uhhhhhh.....like Jesus?


DUH

Anonymous said...

"Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. 1 Cor. 9:14 (KJV)

Preachers, according to scripture, should make a living of being a preacher."

Typical proof texting. Look at the entire context...where do you see PASTOR? Being a "pastor" is not being a "preacher". They are two different functions. They can be combined but what you see are Paul, Barnabas, Timothy are NOT staying in one place for long. They are traveling and only get what those where they are at the time, give them. Paul took nothing but made tents.

Churches are not "tithing" to them as permenant staff. (They would get rich from all the churches they visited if each one was paying them a salary!)

And remember, some of this "pay" was putting them up and feeding them while they are there. Most of the "pay" was for travel.

Get a clue and STOP listening to pastors who depend on your money to tell you what to believe.

The NT body of Christ did not pay people to "pastor".

Anonymous said...

You will either believe it or you can give me your address and I will send you a pair of scissors to cut another passage, which you want to deny, out.

February 28, 2011 3:32 PM

Typical bravado of the ignorance we hear from pulpits all the time. I can promise you this commenter has heard this from a pulpit. Silly soundbite Christianity. For non thinkers only.

Anonymous said...

BTW, since you give me 1 Corin 9 why not go ahead a few chapters and look at your logic for paying those who minister in the local Body when we study chapter 14.

Paul is recommending several preach and others judge. Shall all those who speak be paid by the Body? How would that work? By the meeting?

It was NEVER meant for one guy to preach to the Body with spectators never questioning anything. The body of Christ was interactive. It is a check and balances for false teaching. We want everyone in the Word.

What most miss is that this "pay" is for those traveling...missionaries planting churches, helping churches grow, etc. It is NOT for those who stay in that church and minister. They made their own living in that community.

You gotta admit, it was brilliant for man to conceive of this and teach it as a paid professional position. Started to happen around the 3rd Century. Been man centered ever since except for the remnant in each generation.

Katie said...

Tom,

Another great article.

Anonymous said...

What we need is some of these EXPERTS who have all the answers and proof text all the Scripture to try pastoring a church just for a little while. Come on guys, try it then come and tell us about it. You've got all the answers, you know what pastors are doing wrong, what they should be doing. If it's that easy, you try it, then tell us about what it's like. But if you haven't walked in a pastors shoes then YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT and you're just wasting your breath and our time. Save your platitudes for someone who actually cares what you think.

Anonymous said...

Was listening to Allister Begg on Sunday Morning before going to church and he was talking about the modern churches of today. He said that pulpits are for preaching and stages are for performing and how alot of churches today have gone to having stages replacing pulpits. I thought about how Dr. Lindsay would stand behind the pulpit and preach about Jesus and soul winning and how people would come forward during the invitation. Now we have a preacher who likes to roam back and forth on the "stage" performing his message and if anybody has noticed lately very few people come forward now during the invitation.

Anonymous said...

Now we have a preacher who likes to roam back and forth on the "stage" performing his message and if anybody has noticed lately very few people come forward now during the invitation.

I get a kick out of Pastor Brunson foot stomp. Just lights me up and gets me going.

Ben Fuller

Anonymous said...

"Paul is recommending several preach and others judge. Shall all those who speak be paid by the Body? How would that work? By the meeting?'

What the naysayers are doing here is not biblical judgment. Your first question... that is up to each church, not any single one of us. Your second and third question... however the church wants it to work.

"It was NEVER meant for one guy to preach to the Body with spectators never questioning anything. The body of Christ was interactive."

Actually the early church, in scripture,does not show that the body was interactive. it does say they met regularly to sit under the apostles doctrinal teaching.

"It is a check and balances for false teaching. We want everyone in the Word."

So tell me, who in the early church was doing this check and balances? I don't find that anywhere in the early church.

"What most miss is that this "pay" is for those traveling... missionaries planting churches, helping churches grow, etc. It is NOT for those who stay in that church and minister. They made their own living in that community."

No, Paul made his living in the community but clearly stated that the body is to pay those who preach. Pay them enough to make a living off of.

"You gotta admit, it was brilliant for man to conceive of this and teach it as a paid professional position. Started to happen around the 3rd Century. Been man centered ever since except for the remnant in each generation.'

What you attribute to man, most attribute to God.

I do find it odd that you (or whoever the other anonymous people are that follow your mindset) want to ride the priesthood of the believer thing only when it suits you. Then those who study God's word and come to a different conclusion are trivialized as ignorant pew sitters, kool-aid drinkers, men followers... Then those churches who understand that they bring in a God called preacher, and choose to call him pastor (something you say is not biblical but want to make a case here that the passage is to preachers, not pastors). You sir/ma'am are deeply confused. Oh, I think you want to be right and positively are in your own world. I will support you to take your personal position but will comment in response to your diversions away from the word.

When you really want to support the priesthood of the believer and allow other believers to differ from you without being condescending, then we might have room for a sane discussion.

Anonymous said...

"Good grief!- how do you expect them to respond to people with this sarcastic cynical attitude? say amen?"

Uhhhhhh.....like Jesus?


DUH"

*********************************

I get it now. They have to act like Jesus but we don't. We can act like the scribes and (believer priests we are) and treat them with utter disrespect, and throw in whatever accusations that we want to, and if they don't just take it, and like it, then we have proven that they're not just like Jesus.

What a ministry; treating all the undershepherds the way that the scribes treated the Good shepherd.

Good grief.

WishIhadknown said...

Anon 7:10AM
Good post. That is the kind of respectful discussion I like to see and I think is very helpful.
Thank you.

Cranky Old Baptist said...

February 28th 5:41

That is "church of Christ" theology, which in itself nullifies any thing else they have to say.

Their entire way of looking at the Bible is categorically heretical, and apostate, and not credible, or worthy of consideration.

They preach another gospel. Which nullifies any other real theology that they attempt to teach.

Anonymous said...

an article to consider

http://changeworthmaking.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/the-role-of-the-undershepherd-in-the-rule-of-the-flock/

Anonymous said...

Watchdog,

I imagine you would tell Paul he was a crybaby as well for saying...

"Do everything without complaining or arguing and questioning, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation"

"I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord."

"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves."

"Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."

Now I know Watchdog, that you will turn this around and say, "Tell Brunson that!" I will, but you have the blog and you have the floor and hopefully I will get an answer from you on YOUR role in living out these verses.

Sam

Anonymous said...

The sameway we do have cry baby pastors Dog you remind me of an obsessed cry baby laymen. "He uses too much history" sniff sniff "He yells too much" sniff sniff.

Anonymous said...

"The sameway we do have cry baby pastors Dog you remind me of an obsessed cry baby laymen. "He uses too much history" sniff sniff "He yells too much" sniff sniff."

The same way we do have a cry baby Dog, we have cry baby Dog critics. "He complains too much." sniff sniff.

Anonymous said...

I read all 3 posts, Rainer's and Thornton's.

I did not find Rainer's all that bad. There were lots of qualifications (e.g. legit vs. illegit criticism etc.).

I suspect that rather than looking at 2 or 3 famous cases in SBC life that Rainer does meet lots of pastors who face this.

So, while I don't agree with everything Rainer said, the posts are not that bad really.

I also did not mind Thornton's posting about the areas of Rainer's posts that needed work.

You posted some advice by a pastor (or someone) months ago that was more along the lines of positive action that can be taken in situations like this.

I recommend discipline only as a last restort. Things usually have a way working out. If leadership stays calm, and they really are doing a good job of leading, time will take care of things.

But when leadership is NOT calm, and begins to react, that usually raises the stakes and profile of the matter.



Louis

OKPastor said...

Having been in the pastorate for several years, the amount of critcisms that pastors face has certainly increased..but then again we are living in a much more pronounced consumer driven world..and individuals are much more prone to coming to church with a "what's in it for me mentality".

Many years ago I learned a valuable lesson from a pastor who was my spiritual mentor....he told two important things to rememember as a pastor. (1) there is no church problem so big...that it can't be solved by a little time and a few funerals...and (2) sometimes as a pastor, when dealing with a critic, you just have to clip a piece of mistletoe to your coat tail..and move on in life.

Words that I have lived by for a long time....

Thy Peace said...

Wade Burleson > Posts for query "FBC Jacksonville".

Lynn said...

I don't like the "wait it out" approach, although that seems to be the main approach used.

I liked Thornton's response. Sometimes people have legit criticisms and are hurt and angered by someone waiting them out or suggesting that they aren't real Christians. How insulting.

People like to be respected for having a brain and taken seriously.

Lynn said...

Oh yeah, "hurting the cause of Christ." Now there's a handy bomb to throw back at your critics.

Anonymous said...

W-Dog, the photos are hysterical. These high potentates can't take any heat, but will certainly cash those big checks. Good article.

Now, not to lump these mega-star-CEO types with the faithful and hard working servants in the pulpits. God give us more of those.

But big-woo hot dog egos commanding their lowly subjects, naahhh, let em weep.

Again, love the pictures. They apply to some of the anons that have posted too.
Garlando

Anonymous said...

As a pastor sometimes it does get old. Not saying people don't have a right to voice how they feel. There are things that need to be criticized but it is things they do criticize. It is too cold in here or it is too hot. My favorite is, "when I use to clean the church I did it this way and they do not do it this way." I would love to entertain criticism about I do not feel your sermons are not meeting the needs of the situation that are going on. Maybe something like these people are feeling left out over here and you need to make an extra effort to see why. Criticism is good. It is just the petty stuff that you get. I really do not care if the coffee was to weak or strong. Eventually the minor stuff you block out but you are a fool not to take note of the major stuff if the person is not normally a complainer.

My most favorite moment was when one of my elderly ladies was upset about something and all the sudden she stopped. She looked at me and said, "I guess I am bitching." Then she made the remark it is not that important.

Slow to speak said...

Why are YOU complaining about how Mac complains about how people complain about him?

HUH?????

YOU must really have a boring life!

What's next...Complaints about..

Mac uses too much Old Spice?
Mac needs to lose some weight?
Mac stomped his foot and scared me?
Mac was a nerd in High School?

This whole Blog of complaining about how Mac complains about the way people complain against him is actually giving me some digestive issues.

I think I'm going to go drink some prune juice and all this will be past me.

turnureyesonJC said...

STS is Right ON!!!!

We complain about the way that Mac complains about our complaints.

Think about this.

There are a lot of things RIGHT about Mac:

1. He does not have a mullet or a comb over.

2. He seems to be very educated, he used words last Sunday that I couldn't understand.

3. He dresses nice.

4. He smiles real good.

5. He eats good.

Why can't YOU focus on the good stuff?

Anonymous said...

What we need is some of these EXPERTS who have all the answers and proof text all the Scripture to try pastoring a church just for a little while. Come on guys, try it then come and tell us about it. You've got all the answers, you know what pastors are doing wrong, what they should be doing. If it's that easy, you try it, then tell us about what it's like. But if you haven't walked in a pastors shoes then YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT and you're just wasting your breath and our time. Save your platitudes for someone who actually cares what you think.

February 28, 2011 7:33 PM

Wow. Sounds just like a pastor. Is that why so many SBC pastors are so fat? All the hard work?

Lynn said...

The nature of the complaints can also tell you what type of thing is important to the complainer.

Anonymous said...

People like to be respected for having a brain and taken seriously.

March 1, 2011 12:55 PM

But they expect the "ignorant" pew sitters to check their brains at the door.

Anonymous said...

"I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord."

IN THE LORD. What exactly do you think that means?

"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves."

AS a Mac defender, this is pure hypocrisy.

"Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."

UNITY OF THE SPIRIT. What do you think that means? You probably think it means going along with the charlatans.

"Now I know Watchdog, that you will turn this around and say, "Tell Brunson that!" I will, but you have the blog and you have the floor and hopefully I will get an answer from you on YOUR role in living out these verses."

And Mac has a stage, thousands of followers who pay him to be a charlatan, books, speaking gigs and protection from Patterson and others. Oh, and he had the civil government in his back pocket.

Mac is PAID to be a professional Christian living out those verses. He is to be the model for thousands.

What is his excuse? Ironic you want the nobody blogger to be what you think is the Christian role model for Mac.

You guys would follow anybody.

Anonymous said...

There are a lot of things RIGHT about Mac:

1. He does not have a mullet or a comb over.

2. He seems to be very educated, he used words last Sunday that I couldn't understand.

3. He dresses nice.

4. He smiles real good.

5. He eats good.

Why can't YOU focus on the good stuff?

March 1, 2011 3:54 PM

You are right. We must look at the positive.

He is very clever in getting his trips abroad paid for by marketing them as you will come home more spiritual. Egyptian cotton sheets and all!

Anonymous said...

More positive:

His wife has really cool herringbone tweed stilletos that other pastor wives covet.

Anonymous said...

More positive:

They did not move when someone was stalking them, stealing their mail and taking pictures.

They were also humble enough not to report the mail theft to the PO

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic: Shoe Collections ... Remember Imelda Marcos?

WishIhadknown said...

While I am not a Pastor I do have to handle a lot of complaints. Sometimes it is never easy but I try to remember that no matter who they are Christ died for them the same as he died for me.
I am reminded of one particular woman. She is an out and out pagan and has total disdain for believers. She is loud, demanding, threatening and profane. She has cost me a promotion and everyone where I work hates her.
Nevertheless, whenever she calls I end up having to help. I tell her to always call me but she insists on involving others and ruining their day before she comes to me. By the time she gets to me she is primed and ready. No matter what, I help her. No matter what, I treat her with respect, hear her complaint and help her with a solution; even when it does not relate in any way to what I do.
Why?
I try to remember that as a Christian, Christ lives in me and maybe just maybe I can show people one small speck of the grace Christ has given me. Heaven knows I complain to Jesus enough.
The last time I helped her she was her usual disagreeable self but I was able to resolve her problem. She called me back later to thank me and then went on to relate that she had been having a particular difficult time. Then she said that our conversation had been a tremendous help to her and that it had brought a relief and a release she had been missing. Even her husband noticed the change in her and asked her what had happened.
What strikes me is anyone can love agreeable people. It is in the way we handle disagreeable people that most reflects the love of Christ in us.
If you are a pastor and all anyone complains to you about is the music, you are doing a good job.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Actually the supposed mail theft was reported by Det. Hinson to the local postal inspector who I guess investigated it. Hinson actually gave my name as a person of interest, unbelievably. We scheduled the postal inspectors depo, but there was a legal snag and then the case settled.

Anonymous said...

such hatred, and little love shown for pastors.

confronting and critiquing those who you believe to be in scriptural error is good...even helpful.

but the tone of so many of these posts and comments makes me think that you WANT these pastors to fail. It's as if you enjoy your perceived job of condemning.

Anonymous said...

" It's as if you enjoy your perceived job of condemning.

March 2, 2011 6:32 AM
===============================
My thoughts too in the way First Baptist Church made their way to the courts to ban an innocent women (Mrs) Rich from coming on to the grounds for a funeral.

I'm glad for this blog - the administration @ FBCJ knows nothing about love & compassion they preach. - a good pastor is one who arises above their critics - the beloved pastors do not have blogs posted about their work as their people praise him.

A lot of those good pastors post on this blog - altho I don't know them, their wisdom of words speaks and encourages those of us who read this.

Anonymous said...

Just recently James Robison a former SBC pastor who preached at FBCJ several times appeared on Glen Becks program. He said the problem with pastors today is that they have lost the ability to love. Love conqurs all, unfortunately, I believe James is correct. Yhere is way too much evil coming out of those that are to be like Jesus especially the pulpits of America.

Anonymous said...

Correction:

My thoughts too in the way First Baptist Church made their way to the courts to ban an innocent women (Mrs) Rich . . .
EVEN from coming on to the grounds for a funeral.

SHAME ON FBC . . .this should have never happened!

Lynn said...

Anon 6:32,
I was thinking about your post. I admit to being annoyed with pastors generally due to my background in IFB churches and other types.

Many pastors are not humble people. Many pastors don't take kindly to criticism. Many pastors hope you don't know the tax breaks they get that you don't. Many pastors make it sound like they have a special phone line to God and speak for him. I admit to resenting all of the above.

If you're not that kind of pastor, then I have no beef with you. If you show me respect by caring about my opinion or Bible questions, etc., then I will like you and be open to what you've learned also.

I admit to being naturally critical, but also I see blogs like this as a way to actually have a place to express an opinion. Opinions are not always welcome at church.

And as we all know, criticisms of the music or something silly is one thing. Criticism of greater issues should be taken seriously and thought through. I'm not sure how the Rainer guy expects people in the congregation to aggressively confront the critics of their pastor. That sounds like a bad idea actually. Are they supposed to go to the complainers house in a group and embarrass the complainer and demand he get right with God?

WishIhadknown said...

Yes, Lynn, that is actually how it's done, even if they have to hop a fence to do it!

Anonymous said...

"Opinions are not always welcome at church."

Everyone has the right to have their own opinion. But no one has the right to have their own set of facts.

Very often, the reason that some opinions are not welcomed at church is because they are trying to "deauthorize" the truth, or water it down and debate things that are not debatable, and discuss things that are not discussible.

Questions for learning are always welcome.

Questions and opinions about "uncertain" things are welcome.

Opinions contrary to Certain, Settled Biblical Truths, with the attitude towards making them "uncertain" and "unsettled" is what is not welcomed.

No preacher worth his salt will ever allow certain truths to be watered down into a human opinion.

WishIhadknown said...

Who decides what constitutes "settled Biblical facts?"

Lynn said...

Anon 10:29,
Oh my goodness. You've pushed ALL my buttons now! lol

I've heard what you said before. Questions that mean, "Please teach me, O Wise One!" are wonderful and welcome.

Questions that say, "You know, I've been in this stuff all my life, and I'm starting to question the whole enchilada!" Their response: Please go elsewhere! Good-bye! Nice knowing you!

I was not a lifelong atheist who got bored and decided to go into some poor, unsuspecting Sunday School class and stir things up for my own amusement. I was one of them and had always been. I cared about the other people. I assumed they cared about me. What I found was that they very politely told me to be quiet or move on.

That hurt.

Anonymous said...

"I was not a lifelong atheist who got bored and decided to go into some poor, unsuspecting Sunday School class and stir things up for my own amusement. I was one of them and had always been. I cared about the other people. I assumed they cared about me. What I found was that they very politely told me to be quiet or move on."

That's the exact same reason that Lee Strobel lost his faith.

Fortunately, later in life, he discovered that there were good answers and people who were willing to answer them.

The end result was published in his book: "The Case for Christ."

Anonymous said...

"Questions that say, "You know, I've been in this stuff all my life, and I'm starting to question the whole enchilada!"

Those are the kind of questions that fall in the category of "uncertain things". Those are the kind of questions that are, or should be welcomed.

The kind of questions that are not welcomed, are the kind that want the church/pastor/preacher to answer everything without any certainty, and begin with the only answer an "in my opinion."

How do you KNOW what's on the moon? Someone has been there looked around, and came back and told us.

How do you KNOW there is a Heaven? Someone has been there, looked around, came back and told us.

Unwelcomed questions are the ones that just want to be askd, but are unwilling to be answered. Stir things up, but don't want anyone to settle things down.

Thy Peace said...

NYT > Justices Rule for Protesters at Military Funerals

“Speech is powerful,” Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. wrote for the majority. “It can stir people to action, move them to tears of both joy and sorrow, and — as it did here — inflict great pain.”

But under the First Amendment, he went on, “we cannot react to that pain by punishing the speaker.” Instead, the national commitment to free speech, he said, requires protection of “even hurtful speech on public issues to ensure that we do not stifle public debate.”

Anonymous said...

Hmmmm,

I found out some interesting information concerning a Tom Rich who lives at 1_ _ _ 0, _ _ M _ E N.

This may or may not be our dog so I left out certain digits of address intentionally.

What I found interesting is the household income is over $300,000.00 .

I am OK with someone making this amount of money but if it is our dog, then I find a irony in the whole argument concerning Brunson's salary.

Don't think I can post a picture here, so I'll keep that for now.

Anonymous said...

3 minutes in and deleted.

I guess I know why.

Maybe a new blog exposing the critical church members is in order.

Anonymous said...

How much information should we want to know about Tom Rich?

Is it illegal to share any of Tom's personal information with others?

Is it good to know things like income, address, a picture about the ones who are constantly critical of others?

If all these things are found and collected by a deep internet search, is it something worth providing?

WishIhadknown said...

"Maybe a new blog exposing the critical church members is in order."

Why do you need a blog when the big churches have the police and other law enforcement officials to do it for them?

WishIhadknown said...

Sometimes the best answer to a question is "I don't know." Far too often, though, the answer in churches is "I just don't care."

Lynn said...

Anon 11:37,
What if questions are sincerely asked, and the answers are lame and unconvincing? Or it all comes down to, well, you just have to have faith.

I honestly don't see what's wrong with a pastor saying, well, I've been to seminary and scholars have varying opinions, but I've put thought and research into this, and, in my opinion, so and so is convincing to me.

To me, it's better for them to say that than to act like everything they say is TRUTH period, stop asking.

And thanks for responding. I'm not mad about any of it.

Anonymous said...

""Maybe a new blog exposing the critical church members is in order."

Why do you need a blog when the big churches have the police and other law enforcement officials to do it for them?"

I don't have the resources, nor do I want them to use police. There is enough information out there which can be tapped to expose most people.

I would be disappointed if someone critical of another persons salary was found out to make a 6 digit income X 3.

Anonymous said...

Nice Pool!

WishIhadknown said...

Tit for tat what a Godly example.

WishIhadknown said...

Indeed, my salary is public knowledge. Is yours?

Jon L. Estes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Yep, you got the right name, and you got the right address. Why pull any punches? Go ahead and post my mailing address here. It is publicly available at the property appraiser's website at coj.net.

Readers of this blog are probably not interested to know of my home value, or my address, or my pool, as they don't pay my salary, and I'm not accepting any of their donations, and I'm not claiming they need to give money to God by giving it to me.

My salary...are you kidding? I really appreciate the raise you gave me at $300,000. Please, don't tell my wife that I earn that much money.

Nice try Jon.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Jon Estes, sir, why did you pull your post that you made. Did you accidentally post as yourself when you meant it and thereby expose yourself as the one posting my personal information?

Anonymous said...

How much information should we want to know about Tom Rich?

Is it illegal to share any of Tom's personal information with others?

Is it good to know things like income, address, a picture about the ones who are constantly critical of others?

If all these things are found and collected by a deep internet search, is it something worth providing?

March 2, 2011 12:21 PM

Where have you been? It has already been done.

Anonymous said...

Jon Estes is a typical SBC pastor. Of course, he never said on an FBCJax school blog he would like the headmaster job at FBCJax school, did he? He was only inquiring for "friends". Sure Jon. Does your congregation know?

Jon is another one you find out real quick has a tendancy to pull comments. He has done this on quite a few blogs. And then claims he never said the things he said.

Can you say "deceptive"?

He is the same one who rebuked bloggers on BBC Open forum about Gaines during the pedophile scandal: "Don't touch God's anointed".

Anonymous said...

"Readers of this blog are probably not interested to know of my home value, or my address, or my pool, as they don't pay my salary, and I'm not accepting any of their donations, and I'm not claiming they need to give money to God by giving it to me."

Jon has pew sitters paying his salary. Wonder if any of them know of his blogging prowess? They would probably be shocked to find he is nothing like he is when he performs for them.

Anonymous said...

Maybe a new blog exposing the critical church members is in order.

March 2, 2011 12:13 PM

Good idea as it would only expose the pastors even more.

Be a great compare and contrast piece.

Anonymous said...

"Opinions contrary to Certain, Settled Biblical Truths, with the attitude towards making them "uncertain" and "unsettled" is what is not welcomed."

Such as tithing?

Anonymous said...

but the tone of so many of these posts and comments makes me think that you WANT these pastors to fail. It's as if you enjoy your perceived job of condemning.

March 2, 2011 6:32 AM

Notice how it is always about "tone" instead of "content". That is all they have. If they can believe a "tone" they do not like is sin, they do not think they have to consider facts.

Oldest trick in the book. Pastors and their lemmings have been using it for years to make sure they are never questioned.

Lynn said...

My gripe is that Bible scholars as a whole are aware that there are lots of uncertain, unsettled truths. But the pew sitters aren't aware of this generally and don't want to be. I've yet to have a Christian ask me what books I've read and can they borrow them. They have no interest in hearing other opinions.

I know, I know. I make sweeping statements, but my point is that I think most people go to church because they believe truth is found there, and also because they want to be comforted.

By the way, I'm now curious as to your looks, WD. I thought you had four legs, long hair, a sweet face, and wore a red cape. Is that not really you?! Congrats on the swimming pool and whatever salary you bring in. And thank you for not saying that all our money for God must go thru you or bad things will happen.

Anonymous said...

Isn't it strange that the apostle Paul said to the Corinthians that he had robbed them by taking wages from them and giving it to other churches. II Cor 11:8. I suggest that most megas ignore this passage of scripture. Because it is robbery by taking wages since in the NT wages is only mentioned the one time by Paul and you can bet he knew what wages really meant wages!!

Anonymous said...

Whoever thought that there were critical members within a Baptist church? They are filled with those that do not agree with the leadership on almost every given area. They just do not want to become public since they could lose their sphere of influence if they have any. People are people in and out of churches. Just drop by the coke machine or around the halls and you hear it continually. Thats why a lot of members move from one church to another or just quit altogether. They get tired of the hypocrisy.

WishIhadknown said...

Lynn,
No, no, no, don’t you know Dog doesn’t have those things because he didn’t tithe.

Slow to speak said...

Hate is contagious!

Pointing fingers, calling names, making accusations....FOLKS.....

ISN'T ALL OF THIS A LITTLE IMMATURE?

Aren't we supposed to love?

Aren't we supposed to be nice?

Why do YOU blame Mac for all YOUR problems?

Did YOU have a bad childhood??

All YOU Mac hating, KJV lovin, Polyester suit wearing, Hymn singing, Sunday School gossiping, Sermon sampling HYPOCRITES need to soften up and really pray if YOU are acting in a way that honors God!!!

God is going to clean up HIS Church...maybe it is YOU that needs to hit the Showers!

WishIhadknown said...

Hey, Dog, I don’t recall me ever calling anyone names do you?

I have not worn a tie much less a Polyester suit to church in thirty years or more. I don’t hate Mac he is like the rest of us, Ok, as far as he goes. If you could buy for what he’s worth and sell him…never mind, you get the picture.

Frankly, I don’t have a dog in that hunt.

Don’t use the KJV but it is perfectly fine if others do. My preference is for the NIV and the New American Standard.

Been singing praise songs since long before you were born.

What’s funny is you think this is all new and fresh, sorry, it’s been around a lot longer than even me.

Pretty much enjoy all “good” music including hymns. Odd that you hate songs sung in four part harmony but then again it seems anything other than unison offends you.

Funny thing hymns, they accompanied the KJV as our predecessors carried the gospel into the uttermost parts of the world. They provide comfort and assurance to many more hurting people than any of the praise dongs ever will. Everyone knows them so everyone sings, unlike the praise choruses that no one knows and hardly anyone sings.

I have to admit many of the modern songs are good but they are beginning to wear thin. They follow the same format, start soft in a minor key and then resolve to a major key and end with a big loud finish. People in the industry refer to this as the banana plan because they can turn them out in bunches.

I for one never asked for any of this. I just wanted to praise God and share the gospel. I never dreamed that splitting a church was a strategy for growing. I never thought total fidelity to a man calling himself “pastor” was a requirement for being considered saved. I always thought the church was the members’ and the pastor served the members I just do not believe the church is the preacher’s and the members are there to serve the preacher.

As far as acting in a way that honors God, it’s hard to tell I do know I have a five hundred year old legacy of reformers questioning and challenging those people who are in charge. Looking back over history isn’t it interesting how many of the men who called themselves “God’s chosen messengers” or “God’s anointed” have gotten it wrong. So, yeah, I’m at peace with it.

As far as cleaning up His church, God already did that almost 2,000 years ago when He hung naked on a cross and bore the punishment for your and my sins that we may have eternal life and be eternally “clean.” He did it all I certainly did nothing for it.

Still I hope to meet you all in heaven where we can at last settle our differences.

WishIhadknown said...

Oh yeah, hypocrisy, isn’t that where you say one thing and then do another. Kind of like, I don’t know, declaring whosoever will may come Sunday after Sunday from the pulpit but then serving a long standing member trespass orders barring them from coming on the church campus. So who is the hypocrite?

Anonymous said...

Some pastors do not want criticism. It hurts their image. They will sweep away all things that appear to make them less than the greatest. Tom is right. There are a lot of cry babies around. You can see them on tv every week. Jesus is coming soon since the end times are upon us. Pray for it as it cannot be helped or stopped without His return.

Anonymous said...

"Aren't we supposed to love?

Aren't we supposed to be nice?"

Mac is paid to be a professional Christian role model. Perhaps you an explain why you hold him to a lower standard?

Perhaps you idolize mere titles.

Slow to speak said...

Waaaa.....Mac's been mean to me!!!!

Waaaa.....Mac stomped his foot again!!

Waaaa.....I hate Pastors so much, they can't take critism like me!!!

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

hey dog......

GROW UP SON!

Anonymous said...

Lynn, I hate to bring this to your attention,however Bible scholars are no longer with us. They all died hundreds and thousands of years ago. The newer versions only proove this point. The dead ones are Paul, John, Peter and several others that actually spent time with the Lord. You can be called a scholar but know very little about the Bible.

Anonymous said...

The amount of hate on this blog is so sad.

NYTN said...

I just left this comment on the Rainer blog:

Mr. Rainer, I'm pretty sure you're a very intelligent man overall, but you really don't have a clue on this subject.

It is not 'criticism' that is hampering the Great Commission, rather it is THE PASTOR'S THEMSELVES. More specifically, they are trying to do TOO MANY THINGS that have NOTHING TO DO with the Great Commission. If they actually focused on the BIBLICAL Great Commission, there would be much less for people to complain about.

I might also add that it is actually the very constitution of the modern church that is the root of the problem. But that is another discussion for another time.

Anonymous said...

"The amount of hate on this blog is so sad."

An 8-track tape, typewriter, and tandy computer called to say that line is really really OLD!

Anonymous said...

Waaaa.....Mac's been mean to me!!!!

Waaaa.....Mac stomped his foot again!!

Waaaa.....I hate Pastors so much, they can't take critism like me!!!

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

hey dog......

GROW UP SON!

-----------------------

Yes, because your comments look really mature.

Anonymous said...

"Hate is contagious!"

Yeah, it sure is.
It seems like you have caught it too.

"Pointing fingers, calling names, making accusations....FOLKS....."

Using ALL CAPS and tons of dots....FOLKS!

"ISN'T ALL OF THIS A LITTLE IMMATURE?"

You mean like typing in ALL CAPS like the teen-agers do?

"Aren't we supposed to love?"

If so, why are you criticizing the people on this blog?

"Aren't we supposed to be nice?"

Was Jesus "nice" to the Pharisees?

"Why do YOU blame Mac for all YOUR problems?"

Why do YOU blame this blog for all YOUR problems?

"Did YOU have a bad childhood??"

I would ask you the same question, but I'm thinking you are probably still in the middle of yours.

"All YOU Mac hating, KJV lovin, Polyester suit wearing, Hymn singing, Sunday School gossiping, Sermon sampling HYPOCRITES need to soften up and really pray if YOU are acting in a way that honors God!!!"

Wow, this statement pretty much violates everything you mentioned earlier. It's call cognitive dissonance.

"God is going to clean up HIS Church...maybe it is YOU that needs to hit the Showers!"

You need a cleansing from the inside.

And you should consider changing your screen name to: Slow to Think.

Anonymous said...

"The amount of hate on this blog is so sad."

"An 8-track tape, typewriter, and tandy computer called to say that line is really really OLD!"

And naturally my point is proven. Why am I not surprised?

Anonymous said...

To the previous commentator on Dr. Lindsay: You are right. FBCJ has not had a real preacher since Dr. Lindsay died. He preached salvation to the lost. Jesus was the only reason Dr. Lindsay was in the ministry. He wasn't concerned about fame, money, trips, books etc. He knew his reward was going to come from Jesus when he heard "Well done good and faithful servant". We haven't had a preacher since.

Larry Geiger said...

Asking to see a complete accounting of the money spent IS NOT criticism!

Asking why the church owns a jet airplane is not criticism.

Asking why the pastor makes videos using the style (rap) most commonly adopted by criminals is not criticism.

Asking why every other Baptist (Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran) church that you have ever been into does things one way and you do them another way is not criticism.

Those are just good questions that deserve good answers. Transparent answers.

Jennifer McSparin said...

I think there needs to be differentiation between the types of critics pastors deal with. There are those who raise legitimate concerns and should not face retaliation for it. Anyone in leadership, pastors included, need to be prepared for their share of criticisms and complainers. It comes with the territory.

However, I have been witness to some who get out of line. In my church, for instance, there is a group that perpetually acts as obstructionists on any changes made in the church-and they have done this with every pastor for many years now. Most of the time they can be dealt with by exercising patience, but I have also seen this group resort to sinful tactics.

By sinful tactics, I mean-sending threatening e-mails, treating the pastor hatefully, spreading false rumors around town, etc. When that happens, people DO need to take a stand. We lost a good pastor several years ago because this group was operating mostly in secret, undermining everything the pastor did, and he didn't make it public. After several months of continuously battling this group, he resigned. They got their wish.

I also have to comment that most pastors I have dealt with in the SBC have been godly men who tolerated critics in a patient, loving manner-even those without legitimate complaints. Mac Brunson might be a tyrant, but it's not fair to paint them all with the same brush.