"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Friday, May 28, 2010

Do We Christians Really Love Muslims? If So, How Do We Show It?

One of the things I've learned in the past few years as a "recalcitrant" blogger, is that we fundamentalist evangelical Christians can become ignorant to what it means to love people as Christ commanded us. In our religious zeal we can even excuse hatred and bigotry in the name of Jesus Christ. We sometimes can't recognize spiritual abuse, we can't recognize failures and abuses in our pastors, because of our blind loyalty to our church and the elevation of the position of "pastor" to a pope-like status. We see examples of this all around us in modern fundamental, evangelical Christianity.

And it is also true: those who are NOT Christians, can be more Christ-like in loving people, than we Christians - and again we are blind to this, because in our zeal we believe our actions toward groups of people are born out of our devotion to Christ and the bible, and thus we confuse bigotry for love in a most perverse way.

I think a prime example of this has played out before the citizens of Jacksonville, Florida, in the past month, and this should be a wake-up call to evangelicals, and Baptists especially. Let me explain.

On Tuesday May 10, 2010, at the Islamic Center of Northeast Florida, a man planted and detonated a pipe bomb at the exit of the building while 50 or so Muslims were inside. The FBI has said this blast if detonated inside the building would have caused numerous casualties. Security cameras captured the image of the man who did this dastardly deed, but as of yet he has not been caught. A $20,000 reward has been offered for information leading to his arrest.

While in the past year leading up to this bombing it seems Baptists in Jacksonville have expressed more fear of than love toward our fellow citizens who are Muslims - this week it was reported that a local Jewish men's group from the Jacksonville Jewish Center actually demonstrated an act of love toward Muslims by offering their services to repair the damage to the Islamic Center from the blast.

As this News4Jax article points out, the day of the bombing, May 10, 2010 was also the day that Parvez Ahmed, a Muslim and a professor at the University of North Florida first took his place on the Jacksonville Human Rights Commission. As the article points out, this might just be a coincidence, but I definitely think it is NOT a coincidence. I tend to think this was a message being sent to the Muslim community that they are not welcome to participate in local politics.

How does this connect back to Baptists?

Mr. Ahmed's appointment to the Human Rights Commission by the Republican Mayor John Peyton was met with much opposition by members of the Jacksonville City Council who needed to affirm Ahmed's appointment. Four of the members of the City Commission are members of First Baptist Jacksonville, and the two most outspoken against Ahmed's appointment were councilmen Clay Yarborough and Don Redman (the other two FBC Jax council members did vote to affirm Ahmed).

Clay Yarborough sent a series of questions to Ahmed about God, gay marriage, and his ties to Islamic groups in advance of the council meetings discussing his appointment. But when Times Union reporter Mark Woods asked similar questions to Yarborough, he got some troubling responses:

Woods: "Do you believe Muslims should be able to hold public office in Florida? Some of those who have criticized your questions have wondered if that’s what you were getting at ... "

Yarborough: "That wasn’t the intention of the questions."

Woods: "OK, but do you believe Muslims should be able to hold a public office in Florida?"

Yarborough: “I would have to think about that. I would have to think about that. What kind of office? An elected office? Would you consider the human rights commission to be a public office?”

Woods: "Just in general, do you believe Muslims should be able to hold any public office in Florida?"

Yarborough: “I don’t know.”

That is unbelievable. A long-time Baptist, a member of First Baptist Church, an elected official in the United States of America, and he "doesn't know" if a Muslim should be able to hold any public office in Florida.

I know. Most Americans know. Mark Woods knows. The answer is that any American should be able to hold any public office, regardless of their faith, if they are duly elected or appointed.

Next is Don Redman, long-time member also at FBC Jax, and I've already blogged about him trying to get Mr. Ahmed to "pray to your God" in front of the City Council at Mr. Ahmed's confirmation vote. This gained some national attention, and served to embarrass our city as a bunch of redneck hicks. To Redman's credit, he did later apologize to Mr. Ahmed.

And I don't point these examples out to blast Yarborough or Redman. I know Yarborough from my days at FBC Jax, and he is a fine young man. But I think too many of us Baptists have this same mindset as Yarborugh and Redman of fearing Muslims and their religion.

Where do we Baptists lay folk get this? Perhaps we get it from our preachers. As I blogged in 2009, preacher Jim Smyrl at FBC Jax expressed concern that this same Islamic Center that was bombed in May 2010 dared to put up "domes", while Christians did nothing about it. His sermon, almost exactly 1 year prior to the bombing, was in the context of motivating the congregation to convert Muslims, but Smyrl engaged in what I consider fear mongering by saying:

"I'm riding my motorcycle down 9A the other day. I look over, and the dome on Jacksonville's newest Muslim mosque is being put in place. It's amazing,
Christians will rally for everything but what God says is important...But when it comes to engaging the enemy and the greatest weapon he's used in the last 1400 years, listen, to conquer all of Asia, to conquer much of Europe, what he's doing today he's doing it the same way with Islam in America today and the church is silent. And a big dome goes up in our city and we sit back passively and say 'Well, if that's what they want to believe, alright."
Well, get ready brother, 'cause your grandchildren are going to come under Muslim law if you keep silent."
Unbelievable. Let's convert these Muslims or we'll all be under Muslim law, says Smyrl, implying of course that Muslims in America do NOT like our freedoms and long to change our system of governance. This is absolutely ridiculous. Muslims here in this country cherish the freedoms we have to worship and live our lives and have come here to precisely because of our freedoms. Sure, there are some extremist Muslims who both might want the country ruled according to their religious doctrines - but hey, I think we can say the same about some fanatical Christians. But to characterize the vast majority of Muslims as wanting to put us under Muslim law is ignorant and offensive, and it helps institutionalize the fear that Baptists lay people like Yarborough and Redman, and many of us, have displayed.

And where do our Baptist preachers get this mindset? Who has been our source of information about Islam in Southern Baptist circles since 9/11? Well, none other than Ergun Michael Caner, who really is not the Islamic expert that we thought. For crying out loud, he characterizes his time as a youth at his Islamic center in Columbus as "Islamic Youth Jihad", being "trained to do that which was done on 11 September". I think many Baptists believe Caner - that all Muslims in America who are devout are just terrorists waiting to happen.

But the point is: if we love Muslims and want them to experience freedom in Christ, how do we show it? Do we express doubts about their constitutional rights as citizens? Should we assume they want to put us under Muslim law and are going to kill us? Do we embarrass them at a public hearing demanding they pray to their god for us? Do we do it by elevating and celebrating an embellishing preacher who uses terms like "sand nigger" and "towel head" to describe Muslims, to the position of seminary president? Should our motivation to convert them be out of fear before they strap a bomb on, as Caner testified about himself ("Jesus died on the cross so I wouldn't have to strap a bomb on to myself")?

Or can we perhaps learn something from our Jewish friends, who extended the hand of friendship to the Muslims at the Islamic Center and said, "Let us help you repair the damage from the pipe bomb." An unexpected act of kindness from a group of another faith.

Funny how we Southern Baptists love to talk about sending missionaries to the "North African Middle East" region around Lottie Moon offering time, to raise money to take bibles and send missionaries to witness to Muslims. We hear from the missionaries that these people are hungry for the gospel, and are very good people who want to know the truth.

But then why do we treat Muslims in our own country who need the gospel just as much as those in the NAME region, with so much fear and contempt?

I think I know the answer. Do you?

75 comments:

Anonymous said...

The Islamic religion condones and even encourages the death of infidels. Infidels are those who are not of the Islamic faith. Many Muslims who have established themselves in this country through the universities and have integrated themselves in all areas of our society are doing so not because they love this country but in order to penetrate and weaken this country. Of course, they need to hear the Gospel message of redemption through Christ. Of course, we need to treat them with a measure of respect and reach out to those with whom we work or go to school or those who are our neighbors. However, we do not need to be naive. Their Koran teaches
"death to the infidels." Theirs is NOT the peaceful religion that is
being espoused as politically-correct thinking today.
Yes, there are some factions that are more zealous than others but do you ever hear the less-zealous factions condemning the evil acts of their more zealous brothers? No.
They are strangely silent regarding any bombings, etc. We better not forget 9/11. I refuse to embrace those who choose a religion that seeks to destroy this country. As a Christian, however, I will never knowingly be abusive or unkind and if the Lord gives me opportunity, I will most gladly share His saving message with any Muslim He brings across my path. When we were in the Cold War with the Soviet Union and sending wheat to them, our former pastor said: "When you go into a
national forest, you will see signs that say: 'Don't feed the bears.' We would be wise to heed that warning concerning our enemies who seek to destroy us."

Anonymous said...

Hey Watchdog, I see your first comment is from a rationalized hate monger.

I agree with you completely Watchdog. We need to make a point to express our love for the Muslim people, just as Jerry Falwell expressed his love for people living a gay life style. Jerry, himself, may have been forced to express that love, but we should be genuine in our expression.

You say that the bombing of the Muslim Temple should be a wake up call for our Church Leaders. You, and many others, have been sending loud wake up calls for years. They are not hearing them. God help us all.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Jax: Thank you. The first comment in this post shows what you are saying to be true. "I refuse to embrace", "we had better not forget 9/11" and we had better not forget that there were many Muslims in this country and in other countries such as London, who were just as hurt and appalled as we were.

It's one of many reasons why I began writing on the Caner issue. I saw all Muslims being portrayed in a way that as I got to know Mohammad better, got to know those in the town I live in better, knew that they were being profiled and by the very ones who should have so much love in them that they would not accept this type of bigotry. Christians. Thank you for writing this. I say this from the bottom of my heart.

Anonymous said...

comment number 1 is spot on.

Tom regardless of Caner, you are incorrect in your assessment of their false faith.

Anonymous said...

"Hey Watchdog, I see your first comment is from a rationalized hate monger. "

I re-read my comment and how you can see "hate" in anything I wrote is beyond my understanding. In fact, your labeling me a "hate monger" seems a bit hateful in itself. I thought this blog site was a forum where we could debate our opinions without personal attacks. Guess I was wrong.

Anonymous said...

" and we had better not forget that there were many Muslims in this country and in other countries such as London, who were just as hurt and appalled as we were."

If the above is true, Debbie, why do we never see a public declaration of their oppostion to
Islamic world-wide terrorism? I don't doubt there are some Muslims who were frightened and appalled but, as a group, their mosques, their spiritual leaders refuse to speak out against the zealots who are causing such destruction. Their silence speaks volumes.

Debbie Kaufman said...

We had better learn from history or it will repeat itself such as in the World War 2 Japanese who were in internment camps in the USA.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Anony: You ask why didn't Muslims speak out against 9/11? They did.

Muslim Leaders Condemn Terrorism

Anonymous said...

I refuse to embrace

'Don't feed the bears.' We would be wise to heed that warning concerning our enemies who seek to destroy us."

Hate monger may be too harsh, but I can read between the lines.

Anonymous said...

Many Muslims who have established themselves in this country through the universities and have integrated themselves in all areas of our society are doing so not because they love this country but in order to penetrate and weaken this country.
__________________________________

Exchange the word "Muslims" for "Christians" and you get the exact criticism of what our missionaries are doing in all regions of the world. Integrating themselves into other societies in an effort to convert them. And guess what, according to Brunson, Gaines, and YOUR preacher, whoever he might be, those folks, if converted, are obligated to tithe of all their assets so large buildings can be built!

And you wonder why Americans are hated around the world. What are our real motives in converts? Discipleship groups, fellowship classes, nice Bible studies together, memorizing scripture? Or feeding the poor, helping the needy, seeking justice, serving others, etc.

Pass the kool-aid...first we attacked black people in our country and used the bible to support slavery, then segregation, then to oppose interracial marriages. Now, after being humiliated and exposed, we go after Catholics and Muslims and Jews and whoever else disagrees with us. (Even "moderate" Baptists) (Even conservative baptists who blog?)

We always need an enemy to fight, don't we Dr. Patterson. We just need some minions dumb enough to fight while we are on vacation in Europe. :)

Anonymous said...

If the above is true, Debbie, why do we never see a public declaration of their oppostion to
Islamic world-wide terrorism? I don't doubt there are some Muslims who were frightened and appalled but, as a group, their mosques, their spiritual leaders refuse to speak out against the zealots who are causing such destruction. Their silence speaks volumes.
___________________________________

Again, I would ask the same question about SBC leadership speaking out about what Bob Gray did at Trinity; What Gilyard did at Shiloh; What Brunson is doing at FBC Jax (nepotism, land gifts, hypocritical book he wrote, financial abuse, calling a member a sociopath, trespassing the wife of a blogger, and on and on), What Caner is doing; etc.

Their silence also speaks volumes!

Anonymous said...

'Don't feed the bears.' We would be wise to heed that warning concerning our enemies who seek to destroy us."
___________________________________

This misguided quote actually proves Tom's point. I was raised to hate and fear Russians. It turns out, they fought on our side in every major war and we now realize that killing Russians, our European anglo friends, was misguided and wrong. Yes, their leaders were dangerous, but the people were like you and me. Same with Muslims. They have a different faith, they have some dangerous leaders, but I am not going to rally behind the Jim Smyrl's of the world to hate them like I mistakenly did the Russians.

Plus, as we are all learning, the real enemy in the world right now is not some government's powerful army. It is the religious fanatics, whether they be Arab, Muslim, or CHRISTIAN.

Anonymous said...

Question: Do Muslim leaders seek to control criticism on the internet blogs, or is that just in China and Iran?

Question: Do Muslim leaders take Danube River Cruises with their wealthy members, while other Muslims are homeless, hungry, and oppressed?

Questions: Do Muslim religious leaders stomp around on stage, asking for money, tell folks to "shut em down", issue resolutions against criticism, hire their family on staff, accept large gifts, play commercials for big donors, trespass the wife of dissenters from worship, and ask Christians to "pray to your god for us?"

If so, you are right. They are out to destroy us.

Former FBC Insider said...

Where were WE before we accepted the love and forgiveness that Jesus offered US? What was our own list of sins? Sin is sin is sin. And guess what? We still sin. I think many forget that part. Because we are forgiven does not erase the fact that we still sin.

There was a Christian, a Christ follower, a believer that cared enough about us, had a relationship with us, to share with us about that love and forgiveness, right?

Take the ugly, bigoted, holier-than-thou blinders off. It happens so often in our self created Christian sub-culture.

We are commanded to LOVE. Not just other Christians. We've created such a sub-culture that it has become a ghetto to the rest of the on-looking world. It is contaminating our reputation. We are so dividing ourselves from the rest of the world that often times, no one wants what they see in us. We've created this cocoon that no one can penetrate.

We've got to jump right smack into the middle of the world around us and do it with open, loving arms. It smells like fear. It looks like fear. If Christians believe what we say we believe, then what are we afraid of?

Jesus kept it real simple for us, real basic at it's core; Love others, all others. It's how they will know us. WOW, I'm sure He is disappointed that we can't even get that one right.

First Stone people, First Stone.

Anonymous said...

"And you wonder why Americans are hated around the world. What are our real motives in converts?" Anon 11:06

Exactly. We are not evangelizing, we are drumming up business.

Anonymous said...

Love God , love people. Why is that so hard to do?

Anonymous said...

"Hate monger may be too harsh, but I can read between the lines."

May 28, 2010 11:00 AM

Don't flatter yourself. You cannot read between my lines nor my mind.
There is not an ounce of hate in me regarding any individual in the Islamic faith. It is my heart's desire that those who are blinded by this false religion might come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. I do however abhor the religion that seeks to destroy anyone or any nation that does not bow the knee to their god Mohamed.

As I've read some of the posts after my comment, I do detect a lot of anger against the SBC and the church in general - with some justification, I admit. And there seems to be even some animosity against this great nation. How sad on this weekend when we remember and honor those who have fought and died for the freedoms we enjoy - such as this blog site.

Anonymous said...

"Yes, their leaders were dangerous, but the people were like you and me. Same with Muslims. They have a different faith, they have some dangerous leaders, but I am not going to rally behind the Jim Smyrl's of the world to hate them like I mistakenly did the Russians."

Anyone who is a mature Christian, who knows the Word of God, knows that it is wrong to hate individuals. I don't know one Christian personally who has that kind of hate in their heart. We are to abhor the evil of goverments that seek to abuse their own citizens and seek to conquer and destroy other nations.
Whoever taught you to hate Russians as a race of people was advocating a sin which God hates.

Debbie Kaufman said...

And the definition of love as given to Paul by the God the Holy Spirit can be found in 1 Corinthians 13.

Slow to speak said...

In Saudi arabia, women can't drive cars or vote. You can't wear a cross in public or read a Bible in public. Women are executed for showing disrespect to their husbands. Is it unloving to speak out against such atrocities? Why don't Muslim clerics rebuke such treatment? I hear "crickets" when it comes to the treatment of women. Should we have been silent about slavery? Should we have said at the Holocaust..."Let's just love the Germans." I applaud the Clerics who stand against terrorism, what about the terrorism against women? In Muslim countries, you couldn't have this blog. How do we love Muslims? By helping them get out of their cult!

BibleWheel said...

Slow to speak said In Saudi arabia, women can't drive cars or vote. You can't wear a cross in public or read a Bible in public. Women are executed for showing disrespect to their husbands. Is it unloving to speak out against such atrocities?

You are absolutely correct. That's why MUSLIMS have been known to ask "Where is the Islam in Saudi Arabia?" I am serious about this. The misinformation is outrageous! According to "The Islamist" by Ed Husain, the Wahhabis - which dominate Saudi Arabia - have killed thousands of Muslims with whom they disagreed and have destroyed many of the holy sites in Saudi Arabia because the genuine peace-loving God-devoted Muslims were showing to much "love and devotion" to their Prophet (which the politicized fundamentalists think is idolatrous).

People need to get themselves informed. This is the central crime of Ergun Caner. He knows essentially NOTHING about Islam and yet made himself rich by misinforming people about it!

Richard

Anonymous said...

In Muslim countries, you couldn't have this blog. How do we love Muslims? By helping them get out of their cult!

May 28, 2010 1:29 PM

Thank you for this post/comment. Nice to know someone is on the same page and understands what true scriptural love is all about.

Lydia said...

I do not think most here can detect the cognitive dissonance going on.

Those who question and put forth what Islam teaches in what they describe as their Holy scriptures are considered hateful and fearmongers.

but these same people are pointing out lies and bad behavior of Ergun Caner and Liberty. They are obviously creating an environment of fearmongering against Caner and Liberty. So, they must hate them, right?

So, the obvious conclusion in bringing forth their facts about Caner and Liberty is that they want to see them locked up in American Japanese style internment camps.

Can we stop with the hyperbole?


One can love Muslims and NOT defend their religion or become apologists for Islam. I find it disconcerting that Christians are trying to convince us that Islam is all peace and light. We should be thankful that more Muslims do not know the Koran well.

BTW: Most recently we found that Shabazz is not a Mormon. He is a Muslim.

Some here are starting to sound like Travis Smiley:

http://townhall.com/blog/g/cb91fd92-7c8b-4ad7-8dd5-f5869a653f74?comments=true&commentsSortDirection=Descending

Tom, I appreciate the fact you allow all views. I also appreciate the fact that you can disagree without making it personal and getting all emotional, calling others liars who are just making points that do not seem to be considered.

Anonymous said...

All religions are not equal and Christians must not treat them as valid but different opinions.

Truth is

All else isn't.

God never gave Baal equal hearing and fair treatment.

No Christian should ever use violence or terror or possess hatred toward any individual. At the very same time, they are never to acknowledge as a sane opinion such an evil and fictitious faith.

Were a man to proclaim Donald Duck as God and Barney Rubble his prophet, and fully expect the rest of the world to regard their faith as legitimate, he would be regarded as absurd hands down.

Furthermore to have those who believe in Donald and Barney follow their looney tune book, that says to kill the infidels, attempt to gain an "equal" and "opposite" hearing among Christians is beyond the pale of insanity.

The facts are: Muhammed is Dead. God is ABBA and there is no such thing as ALLAH. Islam, Hindu, Humbug and Mugwart are all nothing more than evil fiction that warp the minds of men.

Christians must not pretend, or acknowledge that Islam is in any form or function a sane opinion.

However Christians must treat them with the respect of Human dignity, and care for their souls as a lost and blind people.

Caner or not, there is nothing valid about this faith.

Make no mistake about it. Christians are to integrate every culture in the world through evangelism. We are to be for that.

We are not to be for Islam doing the same thing. It is not equal and should not be treated as such. We are to never play fair with the devil. We are trying to stop the spread of their fiction, by fueling the spread of the truth.

That being said, we hate sin, but love sinners. We hate islam, but love the people who have fallen prey to it.

Learning the difference would be a great help.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Lydia - I think this is healthy debate. Very informative for me. Thanks everyone, keep the diagogue going.

Debbie Kaufman said...

slowtospeak: Where have Christian churches, leaders spoken against those who are molested and mistreated in the church? This is the first time I have ever heard you state something like this. Where have you spoken out against the mistreatment of women? Ever until now when it suits you to?

As far as treatment of women by Muslims go, I have been treated better by Jonathan Dupree, even when we disagreed, and Mohammad than I have men from my own denomination. Mohammad sees where there are those from my own denomination, men and women, who turned their back on me for doing the right thing in writing on Ergun Caner.

BibleWheel said...

Hey there Lydia,

You wrote: One can love Muslims and NOT defend their religion or become apologists for Islam. I find it disconcerting that Christians are trying to convince us that Islam is all peace and light. We should be thankful that more Muslims do not know the Koran well.

I think this is a very fruitful discussion, but I think there has been a big misunderstanding. I have never said that "Islam is all peace and light."

All I have said is that the political/fundamentalist interpretation of the Quran is not the only possible interpretation, and that there are genuine spiritual Muslims who love God and fellow man just like Christians do who interpret the "violence" in the Quran contextually and historically, in the same way that devoted Christians interpret difficult passages. The only difference is that they are seeing God through the lens of the Quran rather than the Bible. And for this, they have no choice - they grew up in Islamic countries and their whole culture and language and all their knowledge was couched in the words of the Quran. To them, it is the holiest book that could be imagined, and Muhammad is the holiest, the best, the most loving, most fair, most caring, must just, and most merciful man who ever lived. They are raised with all the highest human values projected upon Muhammad. Therefore, when some ignorant buffoon from the West screeches about Muhammad being a demon-possessed pedophile, they are shocked to the core, just as you probably are when you hear Elton John tell us that Jesus was a super-intelligent GAY MAN.

There is so much more to say ...

Richard

Christiane said...

To ANONYMOUS # 1 commenter:

you said 'In fact, your labeling me a "hate monger" seems a bit hateful in itself. I thought this blog site was a forum where we could debate our opinions without personal attacks.'

It is.

That is why your comment was challenged. Your original comment is A STEREOTYPE, and is something that is taken out of context and made to appear as 'truth', but it is not true of Muslims who are not extremists.

So you were challenged.
And you should have been challenged.

The problem may be that you have 'trusted' people like Ergun Caner as 'an authority', when he knowingly used stereotypes against those of the Islamic faith, and against their religion.

Oh, he didn't stop there. He got the Mexicans, women, and black Church-going Christians as well. Lots of laughs came from the 'Christian' audience who lapped it all up.

Try something. Go to Queen Rania of Jordan's websites where she attempts to deal with stereotypes against her faith and her people. She does a very good job. Is SHE credible? We know this: she hasn't portrayed herself as someone that she is not, and she makes the case for people to live in this world with tolerance for those who are different from them.

Maybe it is time for Christians to show loving care to people who are different, as the Samaritan did, long ago, somewhere on the road between Jerusalem and Jericho.

That's in the Bible. You can at least trust that.

BibleWheel said...

Anonymous wrote: "Were a man to proclaim Donald Duck as God and Barney Rubble his prophet, and fully expect the rest of the world to regard their faith as legitimate, he would be regarded as absurd hands down."

How does that relate to Islam? Muhammad never said he was introducing a new God. On the contrary, the Quran explicitly states that Allah is the God of Abraham who gave the Torah to Moses and the Gospel to Jesus. The Quran does not introduce a "new God" like "Donald Duck."

This touches upon one of Caner's most amazing lies - that Arabic speaking Christians never use the word "Allah" for God. I say "amazing" because it is amazing than any man could lie so blatantly and continue as an academic in any capacity, let alone the President of a theological seminary! Here is what British born Indian Muslim Ed Husain wrote in The Islamist when he first encountered Arabic speaking Christians:

The Islamist pg 223: My time in Damascus changed my perception of the Christian faith forever. Arab Christians of all denominations freely and with no qualms used the word Allah for God. At first this was extremely difficult for me to digest. Allah, I thought, was the preserve of the Muslims. Granted, I knew that it was a translation of God, but did not realize that 'Allah' was an intimate part of the lives of millions of Arab Christians. Everywhere in Damascus, Muslims and Christians used phrases that I thought only Muslims used: inshallah (God willing), mashallah (as God willed it), alhamdulillah (praise be to God).

As if we had not enough evidence of Caner's lies! It's like we have hit the mother-load of all lies ever spoken on every topic!

It is time for people to get informed. Throw out the liars selling their opportunistic post-9/11 money-grubbing books.

There are two sides to every story. If you want to voice an opinion about Islam, it is your duty to get informed about what "the other side" believes. If your only source of information is from those who think "Islam is evil" then you are like the man who rejects Christ after reading only Muslim apologetics!

Please think about that.

Richard

BibleWheel said...

(From the previous thread ... but I think this question too important to let it get lost.)

Hey there Lydia,

You wrote: And I am speaking about people that I really love. We can love individual Muslims without becoming apologists for, or defenders of Islam. Islam is evil. And they are in bondage to evil. The women are not only in bondage to evil but also to the males.

I am not "defending Islam" any more than I am "defending Christianity" when I say that slavery and the crusades were a perversion of it. I am simply speaking truth as I understand it. That form of "Christianism" was no less evil than the "Islamism" that you are mistaking for Islam.

You write as if you have never known a gentle spiritual Muslim devoted to loving God and his fellow man.

Is this true? Have you never known a truly spiritually minded Muslim who is indistinguishable in every way but creed from a devoted Christian?

Richard

Lydia said...

parallel Koran translation on Sura 60:1-4

http://www.eternallife.me/quran/?Sura=60

Lydia said...

"How does that relate to Islam? Muhammad never said he was introducing a new God. On the contrary, the Quran explicitly states that Allah is the God of Abraham who gave the Torah to Moses and the Gospel to Jesus. The Quran does not introduce a "new God" like "Donald Duck."


He is never referred to as Jehovah or Yaweh in the Koran. The NAME He told Moses. This is very significant. Allah is NOT God. It is a generic name. It is significant that Mohammad does not use the NAME God told Moses to use. And it is NOT a matter of language or translation. It is NOT the same God at all.

Jay Smith explains this better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy_YrhJRYjA

Lydia said...

"Try something. Go to Queen Rania of Jordan's websites where she attempts to deal with stereotypes against her faith and her people. She does a very good job. Is SHE credible? We know this: she hasn't portrayed herself as someone that she is not, and she makes the case for people to live in this world with tolerance for those who are different from them.
"

While you are at it, go to voice of the martyrs or persecution.com or any of the others and read about those who convert to Christianity or are foriegn Christians in Jordan.

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/countryinfodetail.php?countrycode=35

http://www.christianpersecution.info/news/jordan-increases-pressure-on-christians-closing-church/

http://www.persecutionblog.com/2008/01/jordan-expels-f.html

http://www.persecution.net/jordan.htm

Perhaps you could write the Queen and ask her why there is such little tolerance for Christianity from her peaceful Islamic faith.

Anonymous said...

As far as treatment of women by Muslims go, I have been treated better by Jonathan Dupree, even when we disagreed, and Mohammad than I have men from my own denomination. Mohammad sees where there are those from my own denomination, men and women, who turned their back on me for doing the right thing in writing on Ergun Caner.

May 28, 2010 5:43 PM

Debbie, it makes no sense to me for you to turn your sympathies to an anti-Christ religion because some within your own denomination have turned their backs on you. Jesus was despised and rejected (Isa.53)by His own but He did not turn to Satan for comfort or solace. He instead turned to His Father Who is all and above all to receive the grace and strength He needed.

It is foolish to think Islam is not a dangerous religion and that the majority within it are
ignorant of their own religion.

I hope you have not forgotten the scripture which says: "And no marvel for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light"
(2 Cor. 11:14). Paul was warning against false teachers within the church but how much more true of the enemies of Christ outside the church. Of course, Mohammed is going to be kind and conciliatory towards you if he can persuade you to defend his religion and thus persuade others. Satan's tactics have remained the same since Gen.3.

Anonymous said...

Lets not forget that we fight not against "flesh & blood" but against spiritual wickedness in high places, principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world. Suggest we stand as in Eph 6:11-20 ready to witness the truth of the gospel as Paul did. He was armed with the truth, righteousness, preparation of the gospel of peace, the shield of faith and was able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked through the Word of God. He laid down his life for not only the brethren but all the lost he attempted to win for Christ.

He was beaten with rods, rocks and eventually beheaded for his beliefs. He never raised his hands against anyone just the gospel of peace. Thank God he met Jesus on the Damascus Road and was changed gloriously for the FUTHERANCE of the gospel. Jesus said we are our brothers keepers. Remember the good Samaritan, he helped the man beaten and robbed while the priest walked away. Jesus's final message was that we love one another (John 15-17 "feed my sheep". Paul summed up the perfect love question in Romans 5:7 "For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die". I believe on this Memorial Day weekend we should remember that those great Americans who died in battle to secure our freedom were not concerned about race, color, or creed. They fought shoulder to shoulder in order to preserve freedom. Let freedom ring and just tell the old old story of Jesus and His love leaving it up to the Holy Spirit to do His work rather than what we think is best because in the final analysis He will separate the sheep from goats and His will will be perfect. Those that killed Paul thought they were correct. We know that God's plan was perfect in all of Pauls hardships but he won the prize set before him even in death. Have a great weekend and thanks Watchdog for the stand you are making.

Anonymous said...

you just don't get it...the "real muslims" are the extremists....the average everyday muslims you refer to really don't know what it is to be a true muslim.

I don't care if you publish this or not but understand you are NOT helping the situation by writing all this.

Slow to speak said...

Ergun Caner admittedly lied about who he is...that is wrong! It will cause him to lose his job.

Mohammed lied about who he is...that is wrong! He will take millions to Hell with him because they believe his lies.

Biblewheel needs to read his BIBLE! Or is John 14:6 in your Readers Digest version?

The issue is not nice Muslims verses terrorist Muslims...the issue is TRUTH!!

Oh Biblewheel, next time we have a terrorist attack...I bet his last name wont be Smith, Johnson, or Robinson. The US terrorist list contains: Alhaznawi, Al Suqami, and Shaykh Sai’id. Not exactly Midwestern names!



All Muslims are not terrorist but All of our terrorist it seems are Muslims.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Anony: Congratulations you win the prize for being the best at completely twisting my words because that is not at all what I said nor is it the reason that Mohammad and I are friends. And it is he who has been truthful about Ergun from the beginning not Christians. Next time I will not address such blatant misrepresentation of my words. The silence from me if you choose to do this again will be "most telling" as one commenter has said.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Lydia: You think that my reference to the Japanese camps is hyperbole? No it is a very real possibility except that some in our government have learned from the past. But tell that to the Mosque that Jax referenced who had a pipe bomb set to go off. This is what your type of thinking causes. Not all Muslims believe as you have laid out. Radical Muslims exist. Most Muslims however are peaceful. You say I am an apologist for Muslims. I am wanting them to be honestly represented and not deceitfully represented.

What you are saying is that Fundamentalist Christians for example believe in one thing, and they are heavy into Old Testament reading, which the Muslims will ask why is the OT filled with so much violence and killing? Children, women, etc. We have an answer for that and that it is not meant for us to kill men, women, children. They will tell you that the Quran is not condoning murder of infidels so to speak, and that they are against it. And they will be telling you the truth. You seem to convey that they are lying. That breeds fear which is the reason the Japanese camps existed. Out of fear mongering. That is what I am against, and I am telling you you are wrong to do so.

ken said...

Tell me something, you phony so-called Christians who love bashing Islam in the name of Christ, what did Jesus teach? Did he teach that you should treat others in the same way you want to be treated yourself? Of course he did!

Then why, if you don’t want Christianity lied about do you lie about Islam? Why if you want Christianity tolerated, are you intolerant of Islam? Why if you want to convert Muslims to Christianity are you horrified at the idea that Muslims might want to convert Christians? I’ll tell you why, because you’re not Christians at all, but hypocrites. You expect everyone to respect your religion but you have no respect for everyone else’s -even though the Master of your religion taught otherwise!!

I suggest you repent and start following the teachings of Christ and leave Muslims to follow the teachings of Mohammed. The worst thing that could happen to them is that someone would “convert” them into being fake Christians like you.

Anonymous said...

Muhammed is dead. And there is no Allah.

The entire faith of Islam is as fictional and on the same level as proclaiming that Donald Duck is God.

Again . . . TRUTH IS, and all else isn't.

We love the people that believe Donald Duck is God, but we will not acknowledge that as a "sane" opinion or recognize any essence of it as credible.

Believing Muhammed is a Prophet is the same as beliving in Bat Man and Robin, and it of a truth on that same level.

Christians should never acknowledged it as an equal and opposite point of view.

Anonymous said...

John 14:6: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

One either believes this verse or not. If so then you are saved, if not you are lost. It's that simple.

Anonymous said...

you have a pastor at fbc jax who says he listens to talk radio all the time. do any of you people listen to talk radio? its one constant spew of hate and continuous trying to stir people to act in a hateful manner. so you wonder why two members of fbcjax have been the way they've been. let me tell you, that the last time i was at fbc jax two weeks ago, bobby bowden started his sermon with a joke about telling a "chinaman" to learn the national language "spanish". a CHINAMAN. i don't think i've heard someone called a chinaman since i was a kinneygartener. i continue to sit and watch the words of the people and speakers at fbcjax in amazement. and believe me, i studied that "bomber" tape at the islamic center with more than a little interest. its some backward thinking, talking, jokes, and no... baptists don't love muslims. they don't love anybody. and i'm too tired to capitalize my letters at the moment.

mirele said...

This thread has convinced me yet again that I made the right choice when I embraced Islam. The discussion here, is to put it bluntly, repellent. There is no recognition of Jesus' two great commandments: "Love God, love your neighbor as yourself." There is no recognition that the Samaritans (who were hated in New Testament times because they didn't worship at the Jerusalem temple) are your neighbor. Instead it's all fear, horror and no understanding of the faith of over a billion people.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." - Matthew 23:15

One Salient Oversight said...

Are we really afraid of Christians being a minority in society, where pagans and people of other religions hold important posts in government, where the state itself funnels our taxes towards helping non-Christian religions, and where Christian values and beliefs are not held by the ordinary person in the street?

Do we really fear that?

It sounds very 1st century to me.

You didn't hear Paul or Peter or the other New Testament writers complaining about it.

Lydia said...

"ydia: You think that my reference to the Japanese camps is hyperbole? No it is a very real possibility except that some in our government have learned from the past. But tell that to the Mosque that Jax referenced who had a pipe bomb set to go off. This is what your type of thinking causes. Not all Muslims believe as you have laid out. Radical Muslims exist. Most Muslims however are peaceful. You say I am an apologist for Muslims. I am wanting them to be honestly represented and not deceitfully represented.

What you are saying is that Fundamentalist Christians for example believe in one thing, and they are heavy into Old Testament reading, which the Muslims will ask why is the OT filled with so much violence and killing? Children, women, etc. We have an answer for that and that it is not meant for us to kill men, women, children. They will tell you that the Quran is not condoning murder of infidels so to speak, and that they are against it. And they will be telling you the truth. You seem to convey that they are lying. That breeds fear which is the reason the Japanese camps existed. Out of fear mongering. That is what I am against, and I am telling you you are wrong to do so.

May 28, 2010 9:42 PM


Debbie, This is why it is impossible to have a conversation with you and why I should have known better than to try because of past experience with your emotionalism and myopic thinking patterns.

Your position seems to be any negative truths about Islam means that person wants to see them interned and hates them. So myopic!

Instead of focusing on Caner's lies, you have turned this into a defense of Islam. You have turned it into an us vs them that if anyone discusses what their scriptures teach then they are hateful and want to see them all interned. It is so pedantic, that it is not really worth the effort because there are no reasoning skills. It is all hyperbole and emotionalism.

You are basing your information about Islam upon one Muslim you have met online who lives thousands of miles away from you. You have made that clear on your blog that you believe everything Khan tells you. You compare Khan to all the Christian jerks in Christendom. That is a mistake. All truth stands outside of both Khan and the jerks. Outside of me and everyone else.

I have made my position clear and my experience from about 12 years old on validates it. Muslims have lived in my home:

LOVE Muslims but do not defend Islam. (Which Islam is the question...the answer is the one in their own scriptures)

Your thinking is so myopic that it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you. You have even called me a liar and deleted my comments on your blog.

How many Muslim countries are Christians free to operate openly in? If Islam is so peaceful and tolerant then why is it so few?

You do not have to protect and defend Islam to love Muslims. You do not seem to understand that.

I absolutely agree we should be willing to lose our heads for the sake of the Gospel. But lets make sure it is for the sake of the Gospel and not for agreeing that Islam is something it is not. Let's lose our heads for truth, if we must.

Have you not watched any Jay Smith videos? He is a Christian who is an Islamic Scholar who LOVES Muslims and points out the truth of the Word vs the lies of Islam. He actually spends lots of time with Muslims. Watch his very civil debate with Shabir Ally. It is on youtube.

One can love Muslims and still know that Islam is evil.

Lydia said...

"You write as if you have never known a gentle spiritual Muslim devoted to loving God and his fellow man.
"

Richard, I answered this on another thread. I did not realize you brought it over here.

I will elaborate here even though I will probaby leave a lot out.

There have been Muslims living in and visiting my home off and on since I was 12. My mother volunteered at the University with Foreign students. Our home was filled with Muslim students for Holidays. And we always had several who would live with us during the school calendar year.

During school breaks there would be Muslims from several different country's staying with us and where I first picked up on the fact that Islam is certainly not monolithic.

Several of my family members went on to be missionaries in Muslim countries. (Actually humanitarian aid workers since Christians are not allowed to be missionaries in those places). Just a few summers ago, we had a few former Muslims staying with us for the summer who were secret Christians working for the humanitarian aid org. (They had to be secret to protect their lives and family)

And as I mentioned on the last thread, a wonderful, gentle Muslim woman helped care for my mom when she was ill. (She veiled and looked like Mother Theresa :o)

For anyone to suggest I hate Muslims is a lie.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Lydia - I don't at all think Debbie is defending Islam. Her point is one that I tried to make: I believe there is an unhealthy fear of Muslims in our country, and this comes from preachers who preach fear, and seminary presidents who have lied about their experiences with Islam.

Perhaps its time we realize Southern Baptist preachers, trained at SBC seminaries, are probably not a good source of information about Muslims in our country.

I think Caner after 9/11, if anything, could have given the exact opposite testimony and been more truthful: Hey, everybody, don't fear Muslims after 9/11. My dad was a Muslim, but he was an educated man who loved America and came here to the land of opportunity to give his kids a chance to enjoy freedom and become educated like he was. We came here and were exposed to the gospel, got saved, etc. So don't fear Muslims, love them as I was loved by my friend in high school. We came as Muslims, integrated into the culture of America in Columbus, accepted Christ and now we're preachers. So don't fear Muslims. We should love them, and as they encounter our culture and genuine Christians, they can be won to Christ."

Instead, he preached fear. That he was raised in Columbus as "Islamic Youth Jihad". And Jim Smyrl at my former church believes Muslims want to put us under Islamic law, and he uses his pulpit to get other Christians to believe that nonsense.

But I digress.

I don't like Islam. I believe it to be a false religion. I don't believe Islam is a route to heaven.

But I don't fear Muslims. Debbie doesn't fear them, and has shared her experience of forming a friendship with a man she has something in common with: they both don't like lying Christian leaders, and Debbie appreciates that Khan is willing to take the heat from hateful Christians (not you) that have smeared Khan and attempted to reject ALL of his argumens merely on the basis of him being a Muslim.

This is the same tactic taken by my city council: reject Mr. Ahmed as a member of the Human Rights Commission, becuase we fear him as a Muslim. In fact, we're not sure Muslims should have any public positions in our country.

Anyways, those are my thoughts. I think you are being unfair in your criticism of Debbie.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

About understanding Islam:

I think we do need to understand their scriptures, but we also need to understand their doctrine of those scriptures, and how modern Muslims are taught to interpret them.

There are Christian factions who believe we should "kill fags", and they base their sick views on scripture. But the vast, vast majority of Christians interpret scripture differently. So for a Muslim or an atheist to view Christians as gay-haters is wrong.

Caner has said that Islamic terrorists are merely "devout" Muslims - that any person who is a devout Muslim must then progress to being a terrorist so they can get to heaven.

Really? Is that what is being taught in the Jacksonville Islamic Center? Or is that just what Caner wants us to believe, so he can sell more books by creating this fear of Muslims?

Lydia said...

"Lydia - I don't at all think Debbie is defending Islam. Her point is one that I tried to make: I believe there is an unhealthy fear of Muslims in our country, and this comes from preachers who preach fear, and seminary presidents who have lied about their experiences with Islam."

I want to thank you for allowing dissent on your blog, Tom. But you are wrong about Debbie. I have been reading her and interacting with her for a while now.

Just because Caner lies about HIS experiences with Islam and makes up his own language trying to fool folks does not make what the Islamic scriptures teach peaceful and tolerant.

Personally, I believe Caner HELPS Islam.

Did you not read Debbie's comment alluding that any dissenting comments from her beliefs about Islam are what will lead to internment camps for Muslims? This is simply hyperbole and meant to shut down any dissent or reasoned thinking. Who wants to be considered hateful? This is simply a product of our education system that does not allow for reasoned debate. Just call them hateful and position them as someone who wants to intern all Muslims. How can reasoned thinking occur in that environment?

It is same old false dichotomy and straw man arguments she abhors in the Baptist Identity guys. Such as their claim that discussing this issue puts Caner in danger. (Nevermind Caner is HELPING Islam with his lies)

Debbie is lumping ME in with the those who preach fear and hate simply because I have a different view of "Islam" than she does.

I take my view from what Islamic scriptures teach and, of course, knowing how their women are thought of and treated.

And she IS defending Islam as peaceful and tolerant. While not understanding there ARE peaceful and tolerant Muslims but their religion is NOT. Debbie cannot seem to seperate the two.

Just as there are hateful so called "Christians" while Christianity is not hateful.

And anyone who bombs a mosque in America is a hateful nut job that should be convicted and locked up. But a mosque bombing does not mean Islam is peaceful and tolerant. Does this make any sense to anyone? Have we lost all sense of reason. Or, does being a Christian mean we have to be blind about Islamic beliefs because some of them are so negative and that is not nice?

So, the bottomline is this: If we say negative truths about what the Islamic scriptures teach, we are hateful and intolerant. And we hate Muslims.

That is just as insidious as those who preach hate against Muslims. It is really the same exact thing in reverse.

Does anyone not see the ridiculous positions offered in some of the comments? We are to check out Queen Rania of Jordan to see peaceful and tolerant Islam at work. Yet, we are to ignore the persecution of Christians in that country?
Or, Pointing out what is taught in Islamic scriptures means I want to see Musims interned in this country.

Can we please all be thinking adults?

Debbie Kaufman said...

Thank you Tom. You have articulated my position well.

Lydia: I deleted your comments because of the things you were writing like this and I could not reason with you. Tom is absolutely correct in that is my position. Mohammad will attest to you that this is my position.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Lydia:You are correct in that I did say you were borderline bigot but I do not believe this is born out of hate for the Muslim, but fear. Both hate and fear are dangerous and both hate and fear cause the same result.

Book banning was born out of fear, the pipe bomb in the Mosque was out of fear and hate. Fear is just as damaging as hate. Fear breeds bigotry just as hate does. That too is my point.

"For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7.

Lydia said...

"Lydia: I deleted your comments because of the things you were writing like this and I could not reason with you. Tom is absolutely correct in that is my position. Mohammad will attest to you that this is my position."

Debbie, you said I lied. You deleted my comment and now no one can see what I "lied" about. Nor have you articulated what I "lied" about. Why not post my words and then point out the lie so all can see? But you chose censorship as a way to deal with dissent.

However, It is your blog and you can do what you want.

Anonymous said...

"And she IS defending Islam as peaceful and tolerant. While not understanding there ARE peaceful and tolerant Muslims but their religion is NOT. Debbie cannot seem to seperate the two."

Debbie is like so many today. Her emotions get in the way of her reasoning powers. If one tries to debate an opposite opinion based on the truths of the Word of God, they are immediately classified as
"hate monger." The scriptures that speak of the love of Christ do not negate discernment of that which is evil in this world. We love the soul that was created in God's image but we cannot love the lies that send that soul to an eternal hell. Debbie is almost hysterical in her defense of Muslims by envisioning them sent to internment camps. What Debbie needs to fear is the spreading Muslim influence in this world we live in. We know that Christ will triumph in the end but in the meantime souls are being deceived and lost for all eternity.

Lydia said...

"Lydia:You are correct in that I did say you were borderline bigot but I do not believe this is born out of hate for the Muslim, but fear. Both hate and fear are dangerous and both hate and fear cause the same result."

How can I fear Muslims when I have spent so much time with them and continue to do so?

This is what I mean by the fact that you are myopic in your thinking processes.

Do you think God loves "Islam"? Do you think God can seperate His love for Muslims from what Islam teaches? Those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit can do the same.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Lydia: I am sorry but there was no way that I was going to put that comment on my blog. No absolute way. It was pretty bad both in your accusations to me and toward Mohammad.I said you lied because I kept trying to correct you and you kept getting worse in your accusations. I knew it was not true about Mohammad nor me. I should know my own position shouldn't I? You obviously heard from Tom what you refused to hear me say. It was the same exact thing. No difference. Tom explained better possibly but he articulated my view well.

Now I explained myself perfectly on my blog. I don't think you realize that what you were saying was untrue, but the more I tried to explain the worse it got. I did not want to talk about it here because I do consider you a friend, but that comment was horrible. Now I'll not answer anymore on this issue.

Anonymous said...

Lydia, I am going to try again since my last comment didn't make the grade for some reason.

You are correct in your assessment of Debbie. Her emotions are running so high, they must be interferring with her reasoning.
At least twice, or maybe three times, she mentions those of the Islamic faith in danger of internment camps. I suppose, in her mind, this is because of those who do not agree with her perception of Islam. A true follower of Christ would never think evil of an individual but would be concerned for their eternal soul. However, Christ's love within us does not negate
discerning what is evil in this world we live in. Debbie talks of fear among those of us who are alert to the dangers of Islam. It is not fear but awareness. Debbie needs to open her eyes to the rapidly spreading influence of Islam throughout our world that is leading millions of souls to an eternal hell.

dee said...

Do you all think that this is a question of theology versus practice? There are many people who profess to be Christians but practice all sorts of different theology-Mormons, liberal Episcopalians, Health/wealth Gospel. I would not consider any of those mentioned orthodox Christians. Yet they do consider themselves as such.

So, could the Muslims be just like that? My son's soccer coach is a Scottish Muslim (red hair, brogue, and Allah). He has explained to me that jihad is jihad of the soul meaning a spiritual war leading to conversion. He is very involved in conservative political causes. He thinks the 9/11 were terrorists and not "true" Muslims.

I am well aware that some of his fellow Muslims would believe radically differently. I also agree that women have been persecuted greatly in Islamic countries.

So, isn't this all semantics? What constitutes a true Muslim? Well, my reading of the Koran certainly points to concerns about a physical jihad.But, there certainly seem to be a fair number of Muslims, especially Westernized, who would disagree with that.

Am I off base here?

Lydia said...

"It was pretty bad both in your accusations to me and toward Mohammad."

Huh? You keep accusing me but not allowing anyone to see my so called lies and accusations against you and Mohammad. Nor, are you allowing me to defend these so called "lies and accusations". How is that fair, peaceful, tolerant and just?

Again, I will explain: One can love Muslims and know that Islam is evil at the same time.

You accuse me of "fearing" Muslims but that is a ridiculous charge toward someone who has spent so much time with them.

One Salient Oversight said...

Just a reminder that the idea of Muslims being forced to enter internment camps is not as far fetched as it might seem.

After the Pearl Harbor attack, Japanese Americans were rounded up and placed in internment camps for the duration of the war. The belief was that these people, despite many being American citizens, were too dangerous because the Japanese were a violent race.

Debbie Kaufman said...

I've explained it, Richard has explained it, Jax has explained it. It is more important to reach the Mulsim and that is done with a respectful attitude toward them and their religion not a warrior I am going to change you attitude. The first thing is to know their religion. Dee you are correct. Mohammad is who he says he is and he has probably one of the best characters I know. I love Mohammad as a person, as a friend. I show respect toward his religion while disagreeing with it and not embracing it.

That has been what has made the difference. Now you may not understand that, and fortunately I don't answer to you or anyone for that matter but God and I am in fine standing there. I will continue to do this and one can yell, jump up and down, stand on your head, say I am whatever and I will not change my methods or my feeling on this.

This is America, Muslims are free to worship here. You cannot dictate a religion. Thankfully. We cannot force Christianity on America. There is no dominant religion. That is something that must be dealt with too.

Debbie Kaufman said...

When Mohammad tells me what he believes I write down word for word what he believes. That to some is "being an apologetic and sympathetic" to Islam. It is in fact being truthful in representing what Mohammad and a majority of Muslims believe. Mohammad is being truthful in what he says he believes. Those who are not Muslim say he is lying. He is not lying. He is being honest in his beliefs. He is showing that while Dr. Caner puts all Muslims in one basket, that is not true. While Radical Muslims believe this, most Muslims do not.

This is not a lie, it is the truth and that is all I am doing when writing on Islam as Mohammad believes. That is the chasm. You all believe he is lying and insist that all believe the same as Radical Muslims. They do not. That is what you need to get, yet refuse to. Not one person is an expert and Lydia I doubt that you have asked these Muslims exactly what they believe, because if you tell me that here in America they believe as Radical Muslims do, I would say you are the one not being honest. I have talked to too many who will mirror what Mohammad has told us he believes. They are peaceful and wish no death or harm to anyone.

Lydia said...

"Just a reminder that the idea of Muslims being forced to enter internment camps is not as far fetched as it might seem."

Since this has not been officially proposed after 9/11, Ft Hood or the recent Shabazz incident in NYC or at any other point in tracking cells and preventing planned attacks over the last 10 years, I cannot for the life of me understand how people can really think this is an imminent danger.

In reality, a much different response is actually happening.

If anything is at stake it is the subtle attempt to criminalize any criticism of Islam. Some of it is being done by threats and intimidation. Some are simply scared to offend Muslims. (Does this sound familiar?)

1st Amendment rights to free speech are at risk due to Islamic pressures and threats. I know most are not keeping up with these but some are even going to court to get protection.

You can read about a few examples here:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=36705

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=37153

Remember the riotous response in Europe and the assassination of Van Gogh over portrayals of Mohammad?

This is the conumdrum for Christians. Is it Christlike to aquiesce to bullies (whether they are professed Christians or Muslims) in the civil sphere? Is it a sin to speak out for free speech? Even repugnant free speech? Who gets to define repugnant? Would Tom's free speech on this blog be considered repugnant by some?

As some can see by this thread it is becoming politically incorrect to even say Islam is evil. It is automatically intepreted as one hates Muslims.

Lydia said...

"This is not a lie, it is the truth and that is all I am doing when writing on Islam as Mohammad believes. That is the chasm. You all believe he is lying and insist that all believe the same as Radical Muslims. "

Debbie, You cannot seem to separate the Caner issue of lying with Mohammad's Islamic beliefs. The Caner scandal is not about defending Islam.

I do not think Mohammad is lying at all about what he believes. You make the most incredible leaps.

Once again, I suggest you go to his scriptures (Koran and Hadith, which is sorta like a Talmud) to understand Islam. As to practices of Islam, you will most likely find hundreds of differences across sects and cultures.

To all: Below is a great article about engaging Muslims in the West. It gives the story of how Jay Smith got started in London. Note it said that even when they were hit or knifed they did not fight back. It is a totally different approach than what we have been taught. I am not saying we must do it this way but it is interesting.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/june/21.34.html?start=1

Debbie Kaufman said...

Lydia: You keep using the words defending Islam, which you either say to get a rise out of me, which is definitely working or to paint me wrongly on purpose and I hope that isn't working, but whatever it really doesn't worry me. But I am not defending Islam, I am defending Muslims. Innocent Muslims who are not terrorists such as Mohammad and would agree that the "Radical and Fundamentalist"(which the article says these are, not all Muslims)would knife or hit anyone. He would tell you that in his doctrine that would be very wrong.

I can't figure out how you can say you are "around Muslims and love them" yet paint all Muslims like this Lydia. That is where you are wrong and Mohammad would say that Radical Muslims interpret the Bible wrong. He has it written on his site. All that he believes on this is on his site. Written down. If you dare say he is lying, I would say you just can't handle the truth and want him to look like he's lying and that is no different than what Ergun is doing Lydia. You would be just as guilty.

It is bringing hate toward Muslims for you to continue this and it's not true of all Muslims. Period. You bring about their death by Fundamentalist and Radical Christians or some other mentally unbalanced person. That is not hyperbole, just look at our history, it is a real possibility. At the least, things will happen such as discrimination which is happening due to people with your mindset.

Now read the SBC Voices interview and listen to JD Greear's interview, both of which I have given you and you said something along the lines, well Jay Smith says....completely dismissing both. So I guess it's just as impossible for me to talk to you as you to talk to me.
Thabiti Anyabwile says this which has been my experience with Mohammad:

3) What are some common misconceptions that Christians have about Muslims?

There are many. We sometimes think that every Muslim is a terrorist. Television images and our own fear have a lot to do with that. But the chances are overwhelming that our Muslim friend or neighbor is not a terrorist. They’re people with the same concerns, ambitions, and needs as our non-Muslim neighbors.

Also, many people tend to think that every Muslim has memorized the Qur’an by three years old and is able to give extended and sophisticated explanations of their faith. But in reality, most Muslims don’t know the Qur’an very well at all. And Islam itself is not one thing all over the world. Arab Islam differs significantly from Islam in Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world) and North Africa and North America. You’re more likely to meet a nominal Muslim, much like my nominal Christian family back in NC, than you are to meet a Muslim with the entire Qur’an committed to memory.

But perhaps the biggest myth is that Muslims do not convert. That simply is not true. Many, many Muslims are saved by God’s sovereign grace through faith in Christ all the time! They pay significant costs—losing family, friends and sometimes jobs. But this is exactly what Jesus tells His followers to expect, and it’s worth it. As those who already believe, we should expect that the same gospel that saved us will save our Muslim friends. And we should be ready to help them pay the costs of following our Lord.



And I deleted your comment because you were getting carried away in your comments to the border line of complete and utter hate and I wasn't going to let you go there, especially toward Mohammad. Period. End of story. I have not changed my mind.

Lydia said...

"I can't figure out how you can say you are "around Muslims and love them" yet paint all Muslims like this Lydia."

It could be because you do not read it carefully? I have consistently said to love Muslims but to look to what their scriptures teach. You do not seem to able to separate the two.

You seem to be only able to come to one conclusion if one does not totally agree with you on every point.

" That is where you are wrong and Mohammad would say that Radical Muslims interpret the Bible wrong."

Bible?

"You bring about their death by Fundamentalist and Radical Christians or some other mentally unbalanced person."

This is as logical as telling folks not to draw pictures of Mohammad or they will be killed. Oops, that DID happen.

So, encouraging people to know what the Islamic scriptures teach will bring about their deaths? Are their scriptures that dangerous?

And of course, we are to ignore that radical Islam is the fastest growing sect of Islam...in the West.

"Also, many people tend to think that every Muslim has memorized the Qur’an by three years old and is able to give extended and sophisticated explanations of their faith. But in reality, most Muslims don’t know the Qur’an very well at all."

Debbie, I have made this same point many times. In fact, I quoted bin Laden who said that more Muslims need to read and know the Koran so they will do their duty.

"But perhaps the biggest myth is that Muslims do not convert. That simply is not true. Many, many Muslims are saved by God’s sovereign grace through faith in Christ all the time! They pay significant costs—losing family, friends and sometimes jobs. But this is exactly what Jesus tells His followers to expect, and it’s worth it. As those who already believe, we should expect that the same gospel that saved us will save our Muslim friends. And we should be ready to help them pay the costs of following our Lord."

I am well aware and totally agree. The Muslim from Afghanistan (Pakistan during the Taliban) gentleman who lived with us a few summers ago converted and had to be a secret Christian for a long time. Last year, his wife found his hidden Bible and it was touch and go for a while. But she finally decided not to tell his or her family. We are all praying for her to be saved.

Do I think all Muslims are terrorists? Of course not. Do I think their scriptures teach violence and hate toward non Muslims. Yes.

What do their scriptures teach about women?

Non of this means I am going to ignore the dangers of Islam in this country to our free speech or the push to allow Sharia law (which violates our constitution) to be carried out in Muslim communities.

Of course, you are free to do so and because of free speech, you have the freedom to call me hateful. Which you do quite well. A lot. :o)

Lydia said...

And I deleted your comment because you were getting carried away in your comments to the border line of complete and utter hate and I wasn't going to let you go there, especially toward Mohammad. Period. End of story. I have not changed my mind.

May 30, 2010 11:40 AM

Actually, now you are lying. Please let folks see what I wrote that was hateful toward Mohammad personally so they can judge for themselves.

Or be adult enough to stop repeating that with no evidence. It seems it does not take much to get the charge of being 'hateful' from you.

Debbie Kaufman said...

No Lydia it doesn't. Because it doesn't take much to hate. Sorry I have the comment, but it will not see the light of day nor will others like it. Not on my blog.

Debbie Kaufman said...

That was supposed to be Quran instead of Bible, which if you saw any good in me you would have probably guessed Lydia. That truly disappoints me that you didn't.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

Lydia I completely understand what you are saying an am in agreement with everything you have said!

It appears to me that what you are saying evades Debbie's ability to comprehend.
The religion of Islam will saved absolutely "NO ONE"!!!

There is only one way anyone no matter what nationality they are will ever see the Kingdom of God and that is thru the Lord Jesus Christ "ALONE"!!!

Speak this great truth with as much grace as possible,
"BUT PROCLAIM IT!!!

Lydia said...

"No Lydia it doesn't. Because it doesn't take much to hate. Sorry I have the comment, but it will not see the light of day nor will others like it. Not on my blog."

Debbie, Would you consider sending me the comment by email? You have my addy.

Lydia said...

Pastor Rod, I am glad someone gets it!

Anonymous said...

Lydia, I am not a pastor but I get what you are saying. You are speaking TRUTH with love.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Pastor Rod: I suggest you read Jax's comment on my position. It is not as Lydia has stated so no you don't get it.

Lydia: I am exasperated and any other conversation at this point is fruitless.

Lydia said...

Debbie,

I am asking is that you send me the offending comment. I have no idea what I wrote that was so horrible. I have written a ton of comments on your blog. The only reason I know that you deleted it is because you wrote on that thread that you deleted it because it was so hateful. (I am clueless as to what was so hateful)

How can I learn from this if I do not see what I wrote? All I am asking is that you email it to me.

I have learned to copy my comments in the future, for one thing.

I do not think you can see that your behavior mirrors that of the BI guys you have such a problem with who censor and preach at folks and refuse to discuss any opposing positions.