"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Tuesday, May 25, 2010

Mohammad Khan's Videos Back on YouTube

Mohammad Khan's videos are back on YouTube - for the time being.

You can go to Khan's videos by clicking here:


As I have blogged previously, I did not get involved in the Ergun Caner issue until March 2010 when I went back and listened again to the Ergun Caner sermon preached at my former church, FBC Jacksonville, on November 20, 2001. I was there with my family for that sermon, and had not listened to it again until March 2010.

My recollection of that sermon was that he purposely passed himself off to the faithful at FBC Jax as a trained terrorist, a Jihadist, that had converted to Christianity just in the nick of time, before he killed Americans as a terrorist.

And I believed him.

I and others at FBC Jax cheered for him, and I praised Jesus as I had just seen a "miracle" of sorts in front of my own eyes - "proof" that Jesus saved a hardened, trained Jihadist like those that had just slaughtered thousands of Americans. I was proud that my pastor and my church so soon after 9/11 brought in a man who was trained in Europe to kill Americans as the 9/11 terrorists were, yet THIS ONE was saved by Jesus just in the nick of time. This former terrorist didn't kill us thank God, instead he professed that our pastor Jerry Vines was his hero, and we were all so proud to introduce Caner to the world.

Caner and Vines that day, helped give us hope after 9/11 that truly the answer to 9/11 and Jihad, is the gospel. We knew it, but by golly, now we REALLY knew it.

And sure enough, when I went back and listened to the sermon 8 1/2 years later, my recollection was correct.

Then I looked at Caner's own words in he and his brother's book, documenting that they had moved here to the states when Ergun was 3 or 4 - nullifying the sensational, terrorism aspects of Caner's conversion. Then I took a closer look at Mohammad Khan's videos. Then I listened to no less than 20 of Caner's other sermons during the 00's and sure enough, it was the same basic "Jesus saved a trained terrorist just in the nick of time" story - and I was shocked to hear the same racial and ethnic stereotypes uttered by a man who claimed to be "olive skinned" and a "Turkish immigrant" in a "mixed marriage" - implying that it was acceptable for HIM to make fun of Mexicans, blacks, Turks, and Muslims.

And now that we all know a bit more about the embellishments, and we know more about Caner's true upbringing mostly through the blogosphere in the past month or so, we should return to Khan's videos now and examine his evidence more closely. Especially knowing that Liberty and John Ankerberg went to drastic lengths to get them removed from the Internet. Go now and see what they were so afraid of.

So sad, but it seems to be a trend in the SBC: apply pressure to shut down blogs or websites that are critical of Baptist leaders. The professional preachers can't stand criticism, whether it is from a laypeople blogging in Jacksonville or a pastor in Enid, or a Muslim in London. Shut 'em down. Discredit them. Call them names and smear them, apply whatever pressure you can.

Mohammad Khan is a genuine, devout Muslim - and he has gone to the trouble of documenting the Caner deceptions. Khan has credibility when it comes to the issues of his religion, and thus he is worth us Christians listening to on the Caner matter. Unlike so many of Caner's defenders, I don't call Khan names, I don't smear him. Instead, I consider him a friend and I thank Mohammad Khan for helping us Christians see the truth about one of our heroes - and also helping us see the corruption in our own ranks through the defense tactics used against him.

So go see the Khan videos....

...while they last, until the next legal maneuvering takes them down.

55 comments:

Former FBC Insider said...

Thanks for letting us know it's back up and running. I missed most of them before and will try to get to the rest of them now before the bounty hunters come back.

Mohammad Khan said...

aah mann you told everyone too soon!

my new videos are nearly ready.....

not all of them are back by the way.

john ankerberg is being funny about his videos being used still..

the one liberty reported = no problems....

;)

you might wanna check out erguns speeding tickets here: http://www.fakeexmuslims.com/michaelcanerthespeedster2.htm

Anonymous said...

"My recollection of that sermon was that he purposely passed himself off to the faithful at FBC Jax as a trained terrorist, a Jihadist, that had converted to Christianity just in the nick of time, before he killed Americans as a terrorist."

Right On!
We were part of the cheer crowd audience who were charmed by Caner's gooey sermon at FBCJ.

W/D doesn't make up fiction stories - he writes the truth and has many witnesses to say what he heard in that sermon we and hundreds of others did as well!

Thanks for "Speaking The Truth In Love"

Anonymous said...

Did Doug provide you Mohammed the info on those speeding tickets?.....I know he was on it

Good work, I meant great work guys

Anonymous said...

Where would Ergun and Emir Caner be today, if their story was that they were just John and Jim Smith of Hot Springs, Arkansas? Would we even care who they are? Probably not. Is this why the outlandish biography?
What does this say about me or just about anyone else on here? I guess that is why I haven't been asked to speak at this year's SB convention or serve on a board of trustees. I think I am happy with my life, I don't have anyone looking into my lies, since there aren't any.

Debbie Kaufman said...

anonymous: The spotlight can be intoxicating. Christians are human. We crave the fantastic. When we get it we revere the person and everyone wants this fantastic testimony. Just the fact that God saves any of us is fantastic, but that is not enough for the Christian community. Just look at the buying habits of Christians. Fantastic sells.

Thy Peace said...

Grace and Truth to You [Wade Burleson] > Sectionalism, Fractionalism, and the Separation of Union: A Case Study of What Leads People of Principle to Fight.

(3). When those in control feel see threatened th or he challenged, they will attack with ferocity, believing themselves in danger of losing their dominating position.

(4). If the minority leader successfully holds his ground, others who also hold to the same viewpoint are emboldened and begin to rally, eventually feeling safe enough to issue challenges of their own to those who have personally denigrated those with whom they disagree.


Watchdog, you are one of the people Wade is talking about in #4.

Lydia said...

"Khan has credibility when it comes to the issues of his religion, and thus he is worth us Christians listening to on the Caner matter."

I am probably going to be banned at Debbie's blog for putting this same kind of comment there. She has already deleted one comment and called me a liar.

However, I really hope you will think through your comment above. I totally agree about outing Caner;s long term lies. He needs to be fired but he won't be.

However, to say we need to listen to Khan about Islam is taking this a bit far. This is not about Khan's Islamic beliefs. It is about Caner lying about his background as a Christian leader.

It is not about Caner misrepresenting Islam. It is a mistake to go that route. We are not apologists for Islam, I hope.

I highly recommend folks learn about Islam from the Koran and the Hadith and not from Muslims. Read it yourself.

If you do, you will see that it does promote violence against those who refuse to convert to Islam.

Here are some resources:

Jay Smith is a Christian who is also an Islamic scholar in London who debates Muslims at Speakers corner, Hyde park all the time. He also REALLY does debate the Shabir Ally's out there. There are all kinds of youtube resources to check on this...including many vinyettes of Smith teaching Muslims that are very interesting.

But these two are the resources I hope you all will watch closely:

http://thefitna.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9MJIC238X0 (Jay Smith)

I really do care about truth. I think we must expose the lies of Caner but we do not have to inadvertantly become Islamic apologists to do so.

We must LOVE MUSLIMS. We must NOT become apologists for Islam.

Lydia said...

BTW: Pay close attention to what Jay Smsith says in the last link:

Paraphrasing...

"I am not against Muslims. I am against what the verses in the Koran teach."

And none of what I wrote above means that what Mr. Khan put on his videos about Caner is wrong.

As a matter of, the fact that Caner has been found to be a long time liar about his own background actually HELPS Islam and HURTS the cause of Christ...unless he is asked to step down and if he does not, then I pray that folks will stop listening to him. I pray that he will have absolutely NO influence at all upon any more young people. He is teaching that one can live in long time sin, go to great lengths to deceieve masses of people, profit from it and consider himself not only saved but a leader.

But we must be wise when dealing with this situation. Let us not make it us v them, too. Let us be on the side of truth only.

Anonymous said...

We must LOVE MUSLIMS. We must NOT become apologists for Islam.

May 26, 2010 10:09 AM

AGREED!!

BibleWheel said...

Lydia wrote: "It is not about Caner misrepresenting Islam."

I disagree. It appears to me that Caner has nothing but a superficial knowledge of Islam based on bigoted stereotypes learned from anti-Islamic books. It is quite obvious he has nothing like an "insider's view" as he claimed in the subtitle of his book. The "Islam" that Caner presents is really the "political Islamism" which is quite distinct from and actually antithetical to the religion of Islam. To understand the difference, check out my review of The Islamist by Ed Husain.

Caner has done great damage by propagating a false view about Islam, as discussed here:

Ergun Caner's Crimes against God and the Global Community

As for your suggestion that folks just "read the Quran for themselves" - that would be as if a Muslim said that Jerry Falwell was the truest representative of Christianity, and then supported that by telling folks "Just read the Bible for yourself! You'll see that Jerry is just taking it literally."

Reading the Quran in translation without any knowledge of it's history or context will not lead to a legitimate understanding. It is like the Bible in that it has many ambiguous verses that scholars have debated for centuries, and which give rise to entirely divergent schools of thought such as Sufism vs. Wahhabism. This problem is greatly exacerbated by the fact that there are corrupted translations of the Quran, as discussed here:

Beware of the Halali-Khan Version of the Quran

Richard

Anonymous said...

I think that Lydia made a good point to consider.

I don't know Mr. Khan and whether what he says about Islam is true, not true, not held by all Muslims or held by some, not others etc. It would probably take me a few years to sort all of that out.

I also haven't really followed all of the maneuvering about the videos. Did Ankerberg and others file suit against Youtube or something?

At any rate, the truth about this is going to come out, as it should in a free society where freedom of expression and differing beliefs exist.

What we could pray for is that spirit will rule in all countries.

Free speech (even critical speech) is a good thing ultimately. That is true for Christianity and for Islam.

Louis

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Lydia - I understand what you are saying. I'm not saying let's all sit at the feet of Mohammad Khan and have him teach us about Islam. I'm saying that HE is a credible source of whether Caner was a devout Muslim, and this gives his videos about Caner's misstatements about Islam credibility. He is to believed in matters dealing with Islam - he knows much more about Islam, than say, Ergun Caner from Columbus, Ohio.

But I do say that Caner misrepresents Muslims. I know you won't like this, Lydia, but please hear me out.

Caner has said that terrorists Jihadists are not "extremist Muslims", just "devout Muslims" - implying that all Muslims are terrorists waiting to happen.

I think that misrepresents Muslims in our country.

I think it misrepresents Muslims in the same way Jim Smyrl at FBC Jax saying that he is concerned over the Islamic Center in Jacksonville painting their domes that unless we get busy and convert Muslims to Christianity, we're all going to soon come under Muslim law.

I think that is fear-mongering. I don't believe a Muslim at the Islamic Center in Jacksonville is some terrorist waiting to happen, and I don't believe unless Caner and Smyrl and FBC Jax convert them and get them to profess faith in Christ and the Baptist Faith and Message, that we're all in danger.

Witness to them, yes, but do we need to characterize them as people to be feared? I think not, and that is what Caner's preaching and Jim Smyrl's preaching on this topic serve to do.

We had some nut a couple of weeks ago set off a pipe bomb outside the door of the Islamic Center in Jacksonville, with 50 people or so inside worshipping. This is the same center Smryl expressed his concern about their domes being erected. I think these nuts who go over and bomb mosques are borne out of the fear-mongering that we as Christians engage in.

By the way, the mosque bombing here in Jax had somewhat of a good news twist - a Jewish men's group here in Jax has stepped up to the plate and as a gesture of peace and good will they are raising funds to repair the damage to the mosque.

Maybe THAT is the kind of message Baptists should send to the Muslims - we stand with them in opposition to religious intolerance and violence - NOT that we fear them because of their mosque that we're going to come under Muslim law.

Anonymous said...

Free speech (even critical speech) is a good thing ultimately. That is true for Christianity and for Islam.

Louis
___________________________________

Please tell that to FBC Jax and its trustee president and deacon at the time, A.C. Soud, Jr. He issued and read a deacon's resolution from the pulpit saying that "unjust criticism" will be "aggressively confronted." And it now appears he meant using the JSO and SAO as errand boys to get the identity of the criticizer if needed.

Thy Peace said...

Since 9/11, Ergun Caner has greatly influenced lot of Christians thinking about Muslims in a negative way. This goes back to Jerry Vines quotes on Mohammad and the problems it brought about. All this has origins with Ergun Caner.

I have also heard Mossab Hassan Yosuf, say that inherently the God of Moslems is a "terrorist God". That the religion of Islam leads one to hate, where as Christians are to love.

In reality, I find hate in both religions.

In short people are messed up. And they will twist anything to propagate their views.

This discussion is very important now, that Ergun Caner's views are at present are suspect, at least towards Islam.

I hope James White, who is a student of Islam will flesh out in a truthful way what Islam is, at least towards Christians.

I would encourage any Muslims reading this post to give any web sites for reading material, to gain an understanding of what Islam is. That would be helpful.

Anonymous said...

Just a question . . .

Has anyone checked out Khan's credentials? How do we know that he knows what he's talking about?

Just a question . . .

Lydia said...

"As for your suggestion that folks just "read the Quran for themselves" - that would be as if a Muslim said that Jerry Falwell was the truest representative of Christianity, and then supported that by telling folks "Just read the Bible for yourself! You'll see that Jerry is just taking it literally."

That is exactly the opposite of what I am trying to communicate. Not very well, obviously.

I would never recommend someone listen to Falwell to understand Christianity. I would always recommend they read the scriptures on their own. The Holy Spirit illuminates the truth of the Word. I would recommend they be a Berean in all things pertaining to our Savior.

How many Muslims do you know who admit that the Koran is teaching violence and death to those who will not convert? How many Muslims do you know that will tell you Islam is a religion of "peace". When it means "submission"

In the end, it is NOT what all Muslims actually decide to do or not do. The issue is what their scriptures actually teach them to do. We can only be relieved that more do not follow their own scriptures.

If saying this truth means intolerance or hate then there is no hope for them. Do we love them enough to tell them the truth? Or do we have to pretend their scriptures do not say what they do say?

Thy Peace said...

Thoughts of Francis Turretin > Caner's Old Biography Photos.

Keith said...

Watchdog said, "I consider him [Khan] a friend." Although I understand that you think he is doing everyone a favor by "exposing" Dr. Caner, I wonder if you you are discrediting Jesus Christ by aligning yourself with a man who has made it an ambition to discredit the Jesus you claim to serve?! As a graduate of Liberty University I am not taking issue with whether he is being truthful or not, for truth always rises to the surface. I am simply taking issue with a Christ follower calling someone a friend who desires to discredit Jesus. That'll preach.

Bennett Willis said...

Personally, I would much rather someone of the Christian faith had found this problem. The data was available to us. However, the "quality" of Dr. Caner's Muslim experience was very apparent to Mr. Kahn. Apparently that got him started and he was the messenger--and in this action he has done our faith a service.

The person who has discredited Jesus was the person who improved upon what really happened in their life. This person has forced us to have to deal with or live with their "embellishments." And in the case of Dr. Caner, we will be a long time living this down regardless of LU's actions (or lack there of).

Whether LU, and Criswell before them, have "vetting" responsibilities for this problem is another question. We usually believe the life information provided by the person who fills out the application--other than on transcripts.

Bennett Willis said...

Keith,
Lots of converts to Christianity came because someone was willing to call them "friend." Dr. Caner appears to have been one of those. Doesn't he say that he was opposed to Christ and Christianity with the implication that he wished to discredit Jesus?

Anonymous said...

I watched Khan's videos and found them troubling for both the Caner bros. However I don't know if what he is alleging is true about the
Arabic pronunciation of the words and the Muslim faith.

I just wanted to ask WD if he researched Khan's background and consulted other Muslim experts who agreed with Khan's assessment?

Thy Peace said...

Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > Simple Mistakes, Confused Defenses.

Which immediately makes one wonder, "Didn't Emir Caner even check his source before posting this?" I sure wondered about it. Does he know there is a difference between the two books, or did he just see "Esposito," go, "Oh, I have that book," and repeat Wario's quote without realizing he was citing the wrong book? I have no way of knowing. But I do find it ironic, somewhat humorous, and yet still sad, that when faced with his own misstatement, instead of accepting correction, he chose the path of self-defense without even checking his facts. Let's hope for better from him in the future!

Of course, the best thing Emir Caner could do would be to show the intestinal fortitude and dedication to the truth that marks Christian men, stand up, and tell us all the truth about his past, and Ergun's as well. Truth is thicker than blood, Emir. You know you were born here, not in Turkey. You know that picture Ergun posted of his tenth birthday, which included you, was taken in Ohio, not Turkey. You know the truth there, and I exhort you to speak out and set this situation right. It is the right thing to do
.

I am impressed with James White's patience and logic in unraveling the utterances of Jesus in the Quran. Pastor Wade had it right, when he said, even if James White had only 4th grade education, he would be deemed a Scholar by Baptist traditions. For James White appears to be of the old school.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of . . . what's the latest on WD's lawsuit against FBC-J parties? Haven't heard in a while. WD? Thanks.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Lawsuit update: discovery, depositions are going on now, will continue through June.

Anonymous said...

These are extremely well made videos. I hope they will not be taken down again. This Caner scandal is unblievable at this point. It is shocking to see the lies that Caner preached to gullible Christians.

Anonymous said...

Although I did notice that part 4 of this Mohammad Khan video series was taken down by him. Why? Did he create a video where he messed up the information or something along those lines? I think this Khan guy should be taken into a little bit of question too. How do we know if all of what he is saying is true? Im believing him blindly just as much as many others believed Caner. Opinion on this Watchdog?

Anonymous said...

Could it be that there is a much longer term deeper root of sin at Liberty than folks imagine?

Look at this from Jerry Falwell

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=8088

He describes the long time pastor molesting kids at this church as a 'bump in the road'.

Not a get on your face in repentance..ALL OF YOU because a child's life has been altered forever and you did not believe the kids! And you ran off anyone who dared question the big authority predator pastor.


See, I do not think most of these men have a clue. I think they are businessmen who market the Gospel for influence
and money.

The real question is: Why does Liberty have any credibility at all now?

Anonymous said...

"As a matter of, the fact that Caner has been found to be a long time liar about his own background actually HELPS Islam and HURTS the cause of Christ...unless he is asked to step down and if he does not, then I pray that folks will stop listening to him. I pray that he will have absolutely NO influence at all upon any more young people. He is teaching that one can live in long time sin, go to great lengths to deceieve masses of people, profit from it and consider himself not only saved but a leader."

I read recently about a man of God, leader of God's people who held a prestigious position. This man committed sexual sin and a child was conceived. This man was found out (something he did not like being confronted on and became angry at being exposed). He finally repented and he was allowed to stay in his position of leadership.

Thy Peace said...

How do we know if all of what he is saying is true?.

Various independent readers have confirmed the accuracy of the videos, that indeed Ergun Caner spoke those words. For all those videos were pulled from distribution and both John Ankerberg and Liberty University went after Mohammad Khan to YouTube to take down those videos.

I would encourage this questioner to read Wade's posts, on this matter of Ergun Caner.

Bennett Willis said...

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2010/05/26/new_york_times_blumenthal_omission/index.html

This is a column by Gene Lyons on dealing with "mis-speaking."

Anonymous said...

As information is being gathered, used and applauded from Kahn, how many of you gladly receiving this indicting information have stopped to share Jesus with him?

No matter what Ergun Caner has done, I believe he is a brother in Christ. He will answer for his sins and be found covered by the blood of Jesus. Mr. Kahn will answer for his sins and be found guilty and spend eternity in hell.

Mr. Kahn, if you are reading this and I believe you frequent this blog, please know I live in in the name of Jesus but not near as much as Jesus loves you. According to scripture, unless you receive God's forgiveness you will not have heaven and eternal life. I want you to know that this forgiveness is available, it is available for all. yet, on your own it is impossible for God to allow yo into His heaven. WHY? because of who God is and who we are. He is holy and he is just. We are sinners by nature and fallen forever without His forgiveness.

How does someone who is a sinner get to heaven where it is impossible for one in sin to enter? God can make the impossible possible. He does that through His forgiveness. If you will call out to Him, repent of your sins and put your complete faith in Him, you will be saved. the heaven is yours.

If you would like to go into more detail,let me know and I will be glad to make contact with you somehow and share His love for you in greater detail.

Bill Grant

Lydia said...

Does the Koran support Honor killings?

http://www.youtube.com/user/PfanderFilms#p/c/900CC8F51B717979/20/PrLWm6mMozc

Anonymous said...

Thanks for lawsuit update, WD

Jim said...

Lydia,
I appreciate your concern about some passages in the Qur'an, but have you read the Old Testament books of law lately? Some pretty scary stuff there, too: like community executions of children for disrespecting their parents, or killing women for acts of adultery... just to mention a couple.

Slow to speak said...

In a court of law, Ergun would NEVER be tried and convicted of ANYTHING! This is the court of public opinion and it is a SHAME that so-called Christian want to string Ergun up and hang him out to dry. Waaaa He stretched the truth....Waaaa...He created a new middle name....Waaaa...me little feelings got hurt because he became a Seminary President and I am just a Sunday School teacher...GROW UP! Everybody can't be the Seminary President and it might as well be someone with a great story and great speaking skills like Ergun. Your jealousy is thicker than the Oil in the Gulf!

Lydia said...

"Lydia,
I appreciate your concern about some passages in the Qur'an, but have you read the Old Testament books of law lately? Some pretty scary stuff there, too: like community executions of children for disrespecting their parents, or killing women for acts of adultery... just to mention a couple."

May 27, 2010 6:50 PM

Aren't we blessed to be under the New Covenant?

You are referring above (wrongly on some) to capital punishment when certain LAWS were broken in the Theocracy of Israel. Everyone was aware of the law and it was adjudicated. Not by the whim or anger of a father because his daughter is dressing too Western. They even had judges in the OC and one of them was a woman.
Are you suggesting OT LAW was akin to honor killings we read about today...some even taking place in Western countries?

Thy Peace said...

Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > "The language of my lineage is Turkish, not Arabic." --- Ergun Caner, 2/25/10.

The title of this entry was taken from Caner's own "apology" from 2/25/10. His father was Turkish, not Arabic. His brother says their mother tongue was Swedish, not Arabic. Ergun was in the US from 1969 onward. I did not have any idea, until today, how often Caner claimed Arabic fluency. I had heard him make the claim, at least twice. Mr. Khan has collected many more examples than I had encountered. And the saga continues....

Jim said...

Do you actually believe only Muslims act on a "whim." Nearly every extremist group has their "God/god" representative (minister, priest, rabbi or imam) on speed-dial. Our task is to resist the notion that extremists of any religion are representative of the larger group. There is no scarcity of people ready to justify their particular bigotry by claiming "it's in the 'book'." That is the point I was attempting to make in the earlier post. Perhaps I should have highlighted "Christian" leaders such as Jim Jones or David Koresh.

BibleWheel said...

Hey there Lydia,

You wrote: You are referring above (wrongly on some) to capital punishment when certain LAWS were broken in the Theocracy of Israel. Everyone was aware of the law and it was adjudicated.

I agree with your interpretation of those Scriptures that plainly instruct the reader to kill people for certain offenses. They do not apply to Christians today.

I trust therefore that you will understand when a Muslim interprets verses of the Quran according to the context in which they were written. Specifically, the verses relating to warfare were written during times of warfare, and it is an abuse of the text to simply assert that they justify violence in modern situations.

The dispute between fundamentalists and informed interpreters is pretty much the same in Christianity and Islam.

Richard

Lydia said...

"I trust therefore that you will understand when a Muslim interprets verses of the Quran according to the context in which they were written. Specifically, the verses relating to warfare were written during times of warfare, and it is an abuse of the text to simply assert that they justify violence in modern situations. "

Then why the dancing in the streets in Dearborn MI by American Muslims after 9/11? Seems they understood the 'bad' translation. Another example close to home was a doctor who could not contain himself and started cheering as he and his staff watched the second plane hit. His staff was mortified. These are people who live among us and were thrilled at what happened.

Those were not Mormons flying the planes or we would be having this discussion about the bad translations of Mormonism. Same with Hinduism, etc.

I could give you example after example of Muslims in America who where either thrilled or totally silent after 9/11. There was also a big money trail in the Mosque system that funded a lot of terrorism out of the US!

Now, that I have said it, I am sure I am to be considered a hatemonger. But then, I just finished up a consulting project working with a team that included 2 Muslims who were the IT guys. They were wonderful and smart and I consider them dear friends. I also grew up with Muslim students either spending breaks with us and even had a few that lived with us.

We are to be wise as serpents and gentle as Doves. Not ignorant and blind.

And who on earth would wants to support their treatment of women? Horrendous! They make our brand of Christian patriarchy look liberal!
Do you all really want to DEFEND that?

Love Muslims... but that does not mean being an apologist for Islam. Why are Christians defending Islam? Why not spit in the face of Jesus Christ? It is the same thing.

It is a demonic religion.

Defend and love idividual Muslims all you want. I do that, too. But never defend Islam. It is insidious.

By the way, Richard, I found your interaction with Jonathon on your blog very interesting.

Lydia said...

"The dispute between fundamentalists and informed interpreters is pretty much the same in Christianity and Islam."


Hmm. So they have a new covenant and old covenant, too? Christians who live under the old covenant are WRONG. We should be very vocal about that.

bin Laden called for more Muslims to know the Koran because if they did more would support and train for Jihad.

I do not want to kill Muslims. I love them. I want them to come home to Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

he loses credibility just like you do when he starts making attacks like "he's bald" "he has a weight problem"... Just like your comments about how Smyrl was getting fat. How do you think those things advance your point of view? Also, he clearly states in his first video that Jesus never claimed to be God. Why would you support that?

Anonymous said...

I am simply taking issue with a Christ follower calling someone a friend who desires to discredit Jesus. That'll preach.
___________________________________

Jesus called us friends. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

"That'll preach?" Really, Keith? Is that little phrase like saying "that dog won't hunt?" One of your preacher boy cliches you spout off thinking you are impressing someone or being cute.

That WON'T preach, Keith. What will preach is "love your enemies, do good to those that harm you." A man's Muslim faith is not a reason for me, as a follower of Christ, not to attempt to be, or consider him a friend. Your attitude, Keith, is what makes organized religion scary. And confirms the view that Liberty attendees are are a bunch of fundamentalist wackos. YOU are the type I would hesitate to call friend. And if I ever get a job application from a Liberty grad, I will discard it immediately. I don't need some arrogant, fundamentalist bigot on my employment team.

BibleWheel said...

Hey there Lydia,

You wrote: Then why the dancing in the streets in Dearborn MI by American Muslims after 9/11? Seems they understood the 'bad' translation. Another example close to home was a doctor who could not contain himself and started cheering as he and his staff watched the second plane hit. His staff was mortified. These are people who live among us and were thrilled at what happened.

Any Muslims "dancing in the streets" were obviously influenced by the politicized version of Islam known as "Islamism." It is a political movement using Islam as a tool to recruit new members and control them. It's the same kind of vile abuse of religion that we see historically in Christianity during the Middle Ages or when "Christians" justified slavery using the Bible. I get the impression you have not yet informed yourself about this problem which is so common in most institutionalized forms of religion.

As for the "bad translation" - yes indeed, it is highly likely that some of the folks dancing in the streets had read the Halali-Khan perversion of the Quran that inserts words against Jews and Christians not found in the original text.

I think it is really really important that you take a day to get informed about what Muslims really believe. The best intro is Who Speaks For Islam?: What a Billion Muslims Really Believe which reports on the results of Gallop's 50,000 hours of polling. The results will blow your mind. It appears that you have been thoroughly misinformed about what Muslims actually believe.

All the very best,

Richard

Thy Peace said...

Richard at BibleWheel:

Are you a Christian or a Moslem?

Lydia said...

"It appears that you have been thoroughly misinformed about what Muslims actually believe."


No offense, Richard, but that is what I was thinking about you.

Check out Jay Smith on youtube and his phander film vinyettes on Islam. He is a Christian who is also an Islamic scholar based in London who debates and engages Muslims all the time. And he loves Muslims while telling the truth about the Koran.

We do not need the translation that inserts Christians and Jews. Other translations speak of any who do not convert.

I have been involved with Muslims since I was a preteen. Some have lived in my home. I am involved with some now. One thing I know is that the average Muslim does not really know their scriptures (including the Hadith). They know the 'rules' because they grew up with them. They are raised in very honor/shame environments and can be seen to easily adapt to the West because of their gift of hospitality that was instilled early.

But make no mistake about their loyalties.

And I am speaking about people that I really love. We can love individual Muslims without becoming apologists for, or defenders of Islam. Islam is evil. And they are in bondage to evil. The women are not only in bondage to evil but also to the males.

Have you engaged Wario, an ex Muslim, who is a defender of Caner's version of Islam? Is Khan going to out him as a fake ex Muslim, too? Do you see where I am going with this?

Defending Islam or trying to teach folks what it really is...is a rabbit trail that is a dead end.

Our bigger problem is that Caner does not really represent Christianity and having the indwelling Holy Spirit bearing fruit.He is even paid to represent Christianity. It is not about how he presents Islam. This situation is not about Islam but about "What is Christianity".

Christians do not consistently and willfully lie for years and years while knowing truth. (Hebrews 10: 26-31)

BibleWheel said...

ThyPeace asked Richard "Are you a Christian or a Moslem?"

Why do you ask? Is not the truth or falsehood of my statements independent of my personal religious beliefs?

But in answer to your question: I have identified myself as a basic non-denominational "Bible-believing Christian" for the past couple of decades. But I have recently found that I am quite unhappy with "Christianity" and "Christians" in nearly every way and I don't think it would be accurate anymore to say that I am a Christian. It is interesting that God used Ergun Caner as a potent syrup of ipecac to cleanse my system of the last remnants of false sectarian exlusivist political fundamentalist Christianism.

And no, I am not a Muslim. I have only recently begun to study it in response to the misinformation put out by Caner.

Richard

BibleWheel said...

Hey there Lydia,

I had written: "It appears that you have been thoroughly misinformed about what Muslims actually believe."


To which you replied: No offense, Richard, but that is what I was thinking about you.

Don't worry ... I take no offense at all. It's all just a matter of misunderstandings.

So let me ask - how many books have you read written by folks with a positive view of Islam? If the answer is "zero" then you might want to consider the possibility that your view might be a wee bit imbalanced, if you know what I mean.

And merely reading one book is insufficient. The world is awash in lies put out by Islamist and Christianist political movements that are at WAR with each other. They want war. The see each other as enemies and they want BLOOD. DEATH.

TRUTH is the first casualty of war. So I urge you to get informed. Take Ergun Caner as a warning. He knew NOTHING of Islam and yet became the "go-to guy" for an "insider's view" of everything about Islam for evangelical Christians who now are being used as pawns in a political anti-Christian war.

All the very best,

Richard

Thy Peace said...

Richard: Thanks for your honest answer. Reading from your blog, I could not ascertain where you stood currently. No, it would not have impacted my reading your blog or comments. Truth is Truth, whether said by a Christian, a Moslem or a Hindu or an Atheist. God bless you, Sir.

BibleWheel said...

Hey there Lydia,

You wrote: And I am speaking about people that I really love. We can love individual Muslims without becoming apologists for, or defenders of Islam. Islam is evil. And they are in bondage to evil. The women are not only in bondage to evil but also to the males.


I am not "defending Islam" any more than I am "defending Christianity" when I say that slavery and the crusades were a perversion of it. I am simply speaking truth as I understand it. That form of "Christianism" was no less evil than the "Islamism" that you are mistaking for Islam.

You write as if you have never known a gentle spiritual Muslim devoted to loving God and his fellow man.

Is this true? Have you never known a truly spiritually minded Muslim who is indistinguishable in every way but creed from a devoted Christian?

Richard

BibleWheel said...

ThyPeace wrote: Richard: Thanks for your honest answer. Reading from your blog, I could not ascertain where you stood currently. No, it would not have impacted my reading your blog or comments. Truth is Truth, whether said by a Christian, a Moslem or a Hindu or an Atheist. God bless you, Sir.

Thank you ThyPeace. I am in the midst of a big transformation. The blog is only beginning to reflect my new understanding. Many blessing to you.

Lydia said...

Richard, To understand Islam we should read their scriptures. There are quite a few out there trying to 'rehabilitate' Islam.

"Is this true? Have you never known a truly spiritually minded Muslim who is indistinguishable in every way but creed from a devoted Christian?
"

I have known many gentle sweet Muslims. One sweet Muslim soul cared for my mother when she was very ill.

I would not call them spiritually minded. Perhaps I define "spiritual" differently than you.

But then I have known some very gentle wonderful athiests full of integrity and compassion who behaved more "Christian" than most Christians. One was a man with whom I worked. Most wonderful man I have ever known. A man who would die before he ever told a simple lie. Curious, isn't it?

I also do not subscribe to "creeds". I believe that being a Christian is about "Christ in us". For even Satan "believes" in Jesus Christ.

You bring up a good point about historical Christianity which is a bloody, prideful mess. But was it
really Christianity? Some think so.

Even so, what does it have to do with what our scriptures teach in the NC? That is our big problem. We used to follow kings and magistrates. Today, too many are still following men instead of Christ.

Lydia said...

Richard, one last thing. I believe Caner is poseur. That is my opinion based on listening to quite a few of his 'talks'.

The fact he became the go to guy for Islam says more about Western Christianity than it does about him, incredibly. We need to listen to men less and Jesus Christ, more.

I believe there are a ton more poseur's in Western Christendom.

BibleWheel said...

Hey there Lydia,

You wrote: Richard, one last thing. I believe Caner is poseur. That is my opinion based on listening to quite a few of his 'talks'.

The fact he became the go to guy for Islam says more about Western Christianity than it does about him, incredibly. We need to listen to men less and Jesus Christ, more.

I believe there are a ton more poseur's in Western Christendom.


I'm glad we see eye-to-eye on those points!

It's been very good discussing this with you. I think it's very important that folks see there are two very different points of view concerning the relation between Islam and the West. I say most people mistake Islamism for Islam, and you say that Islamism is the truest representation of Islam. I hope folks will investigate this more.

Richard