Jeff Brumley of the Florida Times Union wrote an article this week about the latest Mormon TV and radio ad campaign targeting nine U.S. cities, including Jacksonville, Florida. We have been innundated with TV and radio ads where a person explains their "normal" life, and ends with the statement: "I'm Fred Smith, and I'm a Mormon".These ads are paid for by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS, or "Mormons") and are an attempt to show the "normalcy" of American Mormons, but of course the ads don't at all address the non-Christian views that one must embrace to be a Mormon.
But I encourage anyone in Jacksonville, Florida or other 8 markets being targeted with these ads (click here to view the "testimonies" from which the ads are derived) who does not understand this religion - to watch the 2007 PBS special on Mormonism. It is a 4-hour program on line that covers the entire history of Mormonism from its origin in the early 1800's in New York with its founder Joseph Smith to the modern-day centralized church and it's practices and culture. It is a documentary that includes many interviews with historians inside and outside of the religion, and of Mormons themselves. One of the best PBS documentaries I've seen. A must see if you want to have a complete picture of the Mormon faith.
One of the interesting aspects of the PBS documentary is to see some of the doctrinal and cultural similarities - and the same demand of historical and doctrinal conformity - practiced by both Mormons and modern-day conservaitve Southern Baptists, which I'll comment on soon.
But please, don't let the Mormon's slick marketing campaign fool you. Watch this program and you will see a very fair, yet very disturbing picture of a strange religion.
To watch this entire 4-hour program, which is broken into 2-hour parts, visit this site:
The Mormons - A PBS Documentary
Below is a snipet from the documentary that deals with how the Mormons discipline dissenters in their ranks, and the disciplinary process used by those who dare question or embarrass their spiritual leaders. The letter of sins, the call to a disciplinary committee with no representation, and total banishment from the church for their divisiveness....hmmm....
Below is a snipet from the documentary that deals with how the Mormons discipline dissenters in their ranks, and the disciplinary process used by those who dare question or embarrass their spiritual leaders. The letter of sins, the call to a disciplinary committee with no representation, and total banishment from the church for their divisiveness....hmmm....
58 comments:
I've got to give it to them, this ad campaign is very slick, and I'm afraid very, very effective at getting their "normal" message across. And they are spending tons of money on it too.
Discernment is not a gift shared by the general population. Too bad.
So Mormons send a letter of sins, demand appearing before a discipline committee without representation, and banish and disfellowship dissenters. Hmmm. And I thought A.C. Soud wrote that letter and deacon resolution. I guess I owe him an apology. Apparently, someone was just following the mormon template against you.
Did the documentary mention the mormons using a deacon, bodyguard, and cop to be on the newly formed discipline committee to find out which members were dissenting so they could be "aggressively confronted?" Or do mormons know better than to involve the local sheriff's office, local state attorney's office, and city attorneys in their internal matters?
If your lawsuits fail, maybe the mormons and others will have a new template to follow, that used by FBC Jax against you, to silence their dissenters.
Glenn Beck and Mitt Romney are bigger celebrities than Mac Brunson and Mike Huckabee so I am going to listen to them. Isn't that how it works?
Other celebrity mormons we should be listening to since we Southern Baptists love our celebrity preachers and politicians:
http://www.famousmormons.net/
This video does send a chill down your spine on how Church Disciplinary action is set up.
People, First Baptist Jax holds the same forum that the Mormon church does. Another reason why people are leaving like flies. Don't you dare question Mac or you get ousted - that's the chill he's sent to the membership since he set foot in Jacksonville.
Once I was watching the True Church Conference with all the big wigs there teaching on Church Discipline. I think the guys name is Jay Adams...he is the big go to guy on church discipline that is becoming very popular in mega churches and the SBC. (He is recommened by the SBC, SGM, Mohler and all the other biggies)
I was astounded when I heard him ADD another step to Matthew 18 that is NOT IN THERE! I could not believe an audience made up of a 1000 young pastors did not catch it. They were drinking it in because the ADDED step kept them in control over the pew sitters.
There is so much false teaching (adding to the Word is false teaching) out there coming from "trusted" mainstream sources that it breaks my heart! It is sick what folks are doing...not just the Mormons.
I believe the scriptures tell us if anyone brings ANOTHER gospel ignore them plain and simple.
"There is so much false teaching (adding to the Word is false teaching) out there coming from "trusted" mainstream sources that it breaks my heart! It is sick what folks are doing...not just the Mormons."
September 3, 2010 2:24 PM
“Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious( wolves.
"[Matt.7:15].
"But false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.These false teachers will infiltrate your midst with destructive heresies,even to the point of denying the Master who bought them.As a result,they will bring swift destruction on themselves.
And many will follow their debauched lifestyles.Because of these false teachers,the way of truth will be slandered."[2Pet.1-3]
"Be imitators of me,brothers and sisters,and watch carefully those who are living this way,just as you have us as an example.For many live,about whom I have often told you, and now, with tears,I tell you that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ.Their end is destruction, their god is the belly, they exult in their shame, and they think about earthly things."[Phil.3:17-19]!!!
Good point Anon. The Mormon story of Joseph Smith isn't even another gospel. It is like an Aesop's fable. It is a fairy tale. Smith was a charleton, plain and simple. Perhaps a precursor to a Jim Jones or David Koresh. Frightening to think that this has grown into what it has today.
Paul said "EVEN IF AN ANGEL" comes and tells you something different flee from him. There are so many false gospels out there today there is hardly any room for them LEFT ON THE PLANET. Men continue to make up their own rules and regulations and unfortunately the sheep are listening to them even those with high IQ's (over 110). God is our refuge and our strength not another man who is sinful and is only concerned with this world's wealth and what it brings him. If that is his god then he surely is poor!!!!
The Bible ended around 100 AD with the apostle John penning the words. Yet here we have a man in the 1850's bringing us some new version from the lord. Sure thing if you are crazy enough to believe in fairy tales.
Since the begining, Man has fought against Authority. This Blog is a Forum against God Placed Authority.
Since the begining, Man has had a rebellious spirit. It begins with hating those who are over us and have been placed in a position of leadership. That's why they crucified Jesus.
Since the begining, we see Groups that rise up to shout and Lash out at God Given Servants. It is time for us Bible Believing Christians to say that we will no longer allow our Leaders to be Slandered. We will not allow those who are over us to be cursed and spit upon. We will defend their honor just as Glenn Beck is doing and say that as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and His chosen servants.
anonymous 7:13,
Get over yourself.
Very interesting parallels between LDS and some of Southern Baptist Mega-Churches practices. Especially related to subverting dissent and questioning.
I have always believed that if FBC Jax was truly serious of stopping FBC JAX Watchdog, the right this to do was to confront him biblically. Which they did not do. Instead they threated him, issued trespass warnings and did not allow representation in the disciplinary committee proceedings.
I felt from the beginning they were not interested in "confronting" watchdog if he understood The Gospel. After all a Church Discipline Committee power resides in ascertaining if the individual in question understands The Gospel. That is where it's power truly lies.
My conclusions of this sad affair at FBC JAX is the Discipline Committee itself does NOT understand The Gospel. If they did understand, they would have at least listened to what Watchdog had to say, allowed him representation to be present for questioning.
So FBC JAX Discipline Committee ... Do you know The Gospel? What is The Gospel? Have you ever tried to live by The Gospel?
If any one of the above answers are true, then you know what you did to Watchdog was a travesty in all forms of it's meaning.
Anon 7:13. Where/how/when did you come to believe it your responsibility to serve a servant? The only one a believer is to serve is Jesus Christ and certainly not a fellow sinner. You are way off on this idea of service and need to spend more of your time reading the scriptures. There is one mediator between man and God and his name is Jesus Christ and He alone.
"This Blog is a Forum against God Placed Authority."
Well, just about anyone can get the "title" that means authority to YOU. Can you say Ted Haggard? Ed Young, Jr? Joel Osteen? So, they are doing God's work, huh?
By the way, another title of authority was at the Glen Beck rally...Richard Land of the SBC!
It is not hard to get one of those titles of authority and then you can call yourself a God Placed
Authority, too.
Thy Peace,
The Chairman of the Discipline Committee has been a long time member of FBCJ, teacher of the Word for many years, as his father-in-law is non other than Judge Soud.
Need more be said about how bias this committee is - from the get go they were out to get the Watchdog, yet both of these men were teaching Bible Classes each and every Sunday when we left First Baptist.
These men too could have stepped up to the plate, but chose not to.
CLARIFICATION from anon 7:39:
The Chairman of the D/Committee's daughter is married to the son of Judge Soud. . . .so they are connected through the marriage of their kids.
So should have written the son of Judge Soud is the son-in-law of the Chairman of the Discipline Committee.
A Church Discipline Committee is like a two edged sword. If the people in the Committee do not know how to wield the sword, it can cut them too. Which it did. By their very actions, it can be shown that they did NOT truly understand what a Church Discipline is.
I know why they did what they did. But that does not gel with biblical doctrine. It was more of a "revenge" or kick the Watchdog out of the church at all costs. "Shut them down" mantra of Mac Brunson. Which was later picked up by Ergun Caner too. Except in Ergun Caner case he did not have a Church Discipline Committee to exercise control over the bloggers. But Ergun Caner's friends in SBC leadership exacted their revenge on James White by not allowing him to teach at the Golden Gate Seminary. SBC leadership needs to be ashamed of their actions. Clearly now Ergun Caner was found to be guilty and being punished for his embellishment and lies/[problem as per Towns] at Liberty University.
Thy Peace - the church was attempting to follow their newly created bylaws, sending me a letter to alert me of my sins and to call me in front of the discipline committee. This was a new committee formed within the bylaw changes of December 2007, three months or so after my blog started in August 2007. I warned the church members on my blog about these bylaw changes, since the church really, in my opinion, did its best to conceal the nature of the bylaw changes - which as I understand it included the formation of the comittee, and removed the members' rights to ever bring civil action in a court against the church, and removed the congregation's rights to call for a church business meeting. I was the only one that spoke up about what I consider a gross abuse of power to get the church members to vote on these changes without an honest attempt to educate them on what they were voting on.
And it is true that the detective who opened the investigation and pulled the subpoenas was on the discipline committee itself. This is one of the reasons why I asked for an Internal Affairs investigation by the sheriff's office (which did not happen), to know his full relationship to the church.
The question of: why not first send one or then two to my house to discuss my blog and my concerns, PRIOR TO the letter of 16 sins and trespass papers is an interesting question. The bylaws don't specifically state they are to do that, but they do spell out reconcilation according to Matthew 18, which one would think they would send one, then two people to the "sinning" church member before the letter.
But as I understand the bylaws, the committee was to meet with the pastor to determine if the sin of the member rises to the level of requiring scriptural discpline and if so, then the person is given written notice of the charges against them and called to a discipline committee meeting. To my understanding, the biblical mandates of Matt 18 would first be applied, but they chose not to go the biblical church discipline route, in my opinion.
But the interesting question of why the trespass papers with the letter of 16 sins, as that is certainly not in the bylaws. Hand-written trespass papers accusing my wife of the sin of "associating with a sinning church member"...then followed up by trespass papers filed with the JSO for the crime of "church misconduct". So my sheriff's office is in the business of issuing trespass papers for not being a very good Christian. You have to love that.
So I have always maintained the opinion that the trespasses, and the elimination of the first steps of coming to me with one and then two persons as the committee's attempt at intimidation, or coercion, to get me, the "coward" - as the president of the trustees called me in the newspaper - to come in and meet with their committee to put the fear of God in me. They may claim I was a "threat" of some sort, now after the fact - but that doesn't jive with the trespass reason of "church misconduct".
Although we never did agree to the conditions for a meeting with the discipline committee, I did agree to speak to the deacons several months after my letter of 16 sins, at the invitation of John Blount, until I was told my speech would be limited to only my confession of whether I was the blog owner or not, and whether my blogging was sinful and unscriptural. I was told that any discussions of the issues I raised on my blog would not be tolerated. So they had already judged my writings and my concerns as sinful and not worthy of a defense in front of the deacons. They only wanted me to confess yes or no to being the author, and yes or no did I agree that it was sinful. They had no interest at all in me defending my writing to the deacon body. They chose to present their own case of my writings to the deacons without me present. So that meeting never took place either. That is all documented on the blog.
As members of the First Baptist Church our thoughts were there was a direct Conflict of Interest because of the relationship of the chairman of D/C and that of Judge Soud.
I believe any common sense individual would say it was a one sided issue from the beginning, being it was unfair as it was a Conflict of Interest with the people involved.
Only natural these 2 men would be in agreement with the matter - bad behavior on their part.
Have a good day everyone! :>)
"Forum Against God Placed Authority": The question is: whether or not it is GOD PLACED! So many are self-called! It's an easy way to make the money. Yes I said easy. Declare one's self the "authority" then you can rule and reign and dare anyone to oppose you. You can use the Word as a weapon, to keep the pew sitter in line, even though you twist it and really hide behind it. It is, in many cases, blasphemed in order to pave the way to riches.
The problem with discipline committees, other than the obvious, is what makes them so pure as to harm the worship and the service of others, because they ask questions (still unanswered) from a preacher that is receiving public money from people in the pews. To take this money without full disclosure is, in my opinion, wrong. Do any of you business owners NOT know what the salaries are of people working/serving in your business? You are paying them, they are working for you, therefore, you know their salaries!!! Not so in the church. What's wrong with this scenario? Arrogance and fear of losing the money....maybe!
As far as Discipline committees are concerned: I have "0" respect for any of them. They do not have the right to discipline anyone, that's Gods job. Where do they get the self-righteousness to pull this stuff. One day they will answer to the Lord, good luck trying to explain "the authority" to Him.
Anon 9:38
I want to make this perectly clear so that there is no misunderstanding, I certainly believe in transparency and accountabilty when it comes to the pastor's salary. I believe the pastor's entire package he receives from the church ought to be fully disclosed. This is something I practise.
Having said that though I do disagree with your statement here "Do any of you business owners NOT know what the salaries are of people working/serving in your business? You are paying them, they are working for you, therefore, you know their salaries!!!" A pastor is not the employee of the people. Even the IRS lists him as self employed. The reason for this is that he must be able to preach the word with indepedence from the preferences of the people. In the O.T. even though prophets were sometimes supported by the people, they were to be the servants of God delivering His message in spite of what anyone gave him. What I'm saying is that if the pastor works for you, you can tell him to quit preaching against certain sins etc... The business owner in the case of the church is Christ.
Btw here's where I'll surprise you, it's for this very reason that Mac should not have accepted the $300,000 land gift. It no doubt caused him not to be able to carry out is office with the independence required.
" A pastor is not the employee of the people. Even the IRS lists him as self employed. The reason for this is that he must be able to preach the word with indepedence from the preferences of the people. "
John, can you show us in scripture where it says the pastor always "preaches"? Now, I realize that tradition has changed the meaning of many functions within the Body.
However, every single word you preach/teach should be checked by every single person hearing as a Berean. If you are not making that clear, you are not a servant of God. And you might be self employed by worldly standards but how dare you claim that when those listening to you pay your salary. By paying you, they are saying they trust you. But they have every right to question what you teach and your behavior.
You make it sound like you are someone special. You are not. History is full of charlatans who masqueraded as pious teachers and people followed them because they did not take the time to know the Word on their own.
The 1 Corin 14 model must really bother you...where several speak and the others judge what was said. It is a great model and one that would cut down on so much false teaching and mere men elevating themselves above others in the Body of Christ.
The more you comment, the more it is obvious you think quite higly of yourself and your position.
John, You seem to want to take people's money but not have any accountability for it by the very people who pay you. You have learned well in the SBC for that is how it is done!
Anon 9:37 - the discipline committee acted against the advice of the pastor. The pastor advised them to "leave him alone" when they told about the identity of the Watchdog. They told the pastor "we can't do that, pastor", and so the pastor told them to do what they felt they had to do.
So they did what they did, contrary to the advice of their pastor, and without the pastor's knowledge.
If you believe the testimony given thus far.
Anon 10:51 & 10:53,
You obviously did not read my opening comment. I believe the pastor is accountable to the church and his salary is to be posted. But not in a employee/employer relationship.
As far as my motives you don't know anything about me. The people in the church I pastor would never believe what you just said about me.
Everytime I make a comment that disagrees with yours you attack me personally. You're the one who obviously thinks pretty highly of themselves because you cannot handle people disagreeing with you.
John - for the record, I appreciate your contributions here on this blog and believe you to be sincere, and I am glad there are pastors like you out there.
Thank you brother you are very kind and I believe you were treated unfairly and unjustly by FBC Jax and the pastor.
"You obviously did not read my opening comment. I believe the pastor is accountable to the church and his salary is to be posted. But not in a employee/employer relationship."
John, Does your church have a legal structure? If it does, then you are listed as an employee of that legal entity. Whether you are self employed for tax purposes or not.
Does anyone else find it strange that those that call themselves the Body of Christ use worldly legal strutures to operate? Why
"As far as my motives you don't know anything about me. The people in the church I pastor would never believe what you just said about me."
They might if they are reading your blog comments on the FBCJax thread. But maybe they have only been taught to believe and follow a human. You seem to believe that title and position is what counts in the Body of Christ.
Grace and Truth to You [Wade Burleson] > Church Authority: What It Is And What It Is Not (DECEMBER 13, 2007)
“Woe be unto the Pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord. Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.” (Jeremiah 23:1-2)
If any pastor uses the "Discipline" tactic, - whether biblical or personal - to further their personal agendas, causes, and wealth, be prepared for a response you may not be able to handle.
You do not EVER attack any mans integrity, character, or name with such horrific tactics like these churches now use. You will reap what you sow, Pastors and your disciples!
If you dare try to remove a member, prepare for pure HELL here on Earth because if any man has Character, Integrity and Biblical principles - he will fight to regain what you attempted to destroy with and BY any means.
It then "IS NEVER OVER"......ever!
Right Mike, his disciples, and those within "the Baptist Mafia"!
At least some got notices, I got none, no not one !!! -
Following Christ, Not Man
Doug Pittman
doug@dougpittman.com
John said: "the pastor doesn't work for the people". Of course he does. What do you think a "search committee" is. (Even though so many committees are total failures. Also, the people vote the preacher(?) in or out!!!! And they have CONTRACTS with the church. This ordained by God thing that all of you preachers tout makes one nauseous. ONLY GOD HIMSELF KNOWS IF A PREACHER IS ORDAINED BY GOD. Also, what about the family members and the staff in general on the payroll????Are they ordained by God? NO? You mean just the preacher is God ordained. John, congratulations, got this one wrong. Humility is to be the hallmark of any preacher, as he is a servant!!!All I see out of most (not all) preachers today is full blown arrogance!!!! I couldn't be in your church John. I would get disciplined, trespassed and thrown out. Isn't that what some of these guys are good at.
John, you might think you are reading comments from the previous blogger of yesterday. But it is not me. The 10:51, 10:53 and 12:32 comments are not mine, nor do I know them in any way. So just for the record it is not just one person but others you disagree with.
WD: "So they did what they did contrary to the advice of the pastor and without the pastors knowledge".
Looks like maybe someone is going to take "the fall" for the pastor. That makes it nice. Its also wrong for deacons to do the opposite of what their pastor directs them to do. Wouldn't that be an infraction under their own bylaws? Since the pastor told them not to do something they should be without authority under their own bylaws to issue trespassing notices or remove any member. Also, wouldn't that indicate that the pastor should instigate a reconcilitation with the WD since the deacons went against the pastors wishes? Exactly where should the buck stop? Maybe there are others that have been injured, that pastors and churches should reconcile with. Just thinking.
"WD: "So they did what they did contrary to the advice of the pastor and without the pastors knowledge".
=============================
The preacher remarked early on that he always lets others do what he's not cut out to do - he doesn't like to be the bad guy. For example he let the former 3 Kings fire one of the long time pastors and then hired his son. As far as the WD incident, of course he gave his blessing to these men to do what they had to do - they all were in agreement.
Today's Sunday and I'm sitting here listening to this man talk to the early morning TV audience about building relationships. The church he says is the body of the "forgiven" - Mac is certainly no role model for what he preaches. He talks the talk!
I think the Mormons are slightly more appealing than the Baptists simply because I didn't grow up in Mormonism. Plenty of nice people in both groups. But basically religion seems to be about men arguing over power.
If people don't go along with those in power, it gets ugly. The leaders are not humble and don't act any better than secular people-actually maybe worse.
I'd say neither Mormons or Christians want the world looking too closely at their beliefs-cause they can be hard to defend in the modern world.
So, Baptists vs. Mormons-two powerful groups that want to run people's lives and obtain their money.
In reference to ANON September 5, 2010 8:27 AM comment;
I thought about this comment on Doug's website about what and how this Pastor named Mike Everson - who was at this time the Georgia Baptist Convention Executive Chairman, treat conflicts......
Doug said;
"As I look back and reflect and remember things told to me, I remember him saying to me once during his fight with one of the former member at Pray’s Mill ; “ Doug, it is like this: remember the Chief used to always circle himself and get the Indians to fight his battles and if he got the best to protect him he would never have to fight because they would fight for the chief to protect him to the bitter end …I have my deacons fight my battles for me.”
I have my deacons fight my battles, WOW. They must teach this in Seminaries.
And Lynn, your right on!
The problem regarding pastors having discipline practiced from Matt 18 is that they only utilize part of the chapter. If one reads the entire passage near the end Peter asked Jesus how many times do you forgive and Peter asked a certain number as 7. Jesus said not 7 but 70 times 7 which is 490. Have any of you wondered how some pastors give in at one or two. You will never see them taking criticism at number 231, 322, or 400. God set the standard at 490 or even higher but "little men" can't take it, but boy can "little men" dish it out. No wonder the Lord vomits some of these churches out they make him sick. He also says to some of these men "I never knew you"!!!! The "little men" have it their way, not Gods way and every time they get their feet in the tar bucket they WONDER WHY!!! All too often the flesh over rules the spirit and chaos reigns. To "little men" be the glory great things they have done all in the spirit of reconciliation.
They should take the example of David when a man was throwing rocks at him. David said leave him alone. He could have had his men kill that man instantly. Then there is Jesus hanging on a tree, bleeding with nails in his hands and feet and he did not revile those that put him there. No he forgave them. The church and pastors need to follow the way, the truth and the life. Then and only then will they reach out to people and revival will take place.
Mormons vs Christians
The Republicans had better find themselves a good Christian presidential candidate to run against M. Romney. SOOOONNN!!! A Mormon will not win a Presidential Election. Not now anyway.
If Romney becomes the Republican candidate, he will run against either H. Clinton or President Obama. Who do you think will win? I believe that we will have our first woman President.
Are there any good Christian candidates out there?
We had better find a Christian STATESMAN fast!!
In my humble opinion.
Guily as charged.
Mac Brunson can not say you guys do what you think should be done and excuse himself from the results of their action. By giving those men the freedom to do what they think is best; he approves of whatever they do and the resulting action. Is that not so?
Dr. Who,
Is Doug Pittman's blog back?
"The problem regarding pastors having discipline practiced from Matt 18 is that they only utilize part of the chapter."
Is there anyone reading here that has actually seen a Matthew 18 situation taken to the entire church to decide?
There are very few pastors who would dare allow that.
Or maybe there are those Pastors who really DO NOT believe what the Bible stands for and are truly just using Christ as a stepping stone.
I now am of the opinion and really believe that these PASTORS must not think there is a GOD and they have NO accountability to anyone or anything except themselves and their selfish wants and desires.
Just a thought.
Doug 2:13. Yes your thought is correct. I have met several of these guys and what they do is disgraceful. They don't really care what the Bible says. There are no absolutes with them other than they are the absolute authority. Don't believe me? Just cross one of them. Regretfully they take a lot of deacons down with them all of whom want to be SOMEBODY.
ANON September 5, 2010 3:22 PM and others;
I have crossed one of them (as a matter of fact I have crossed several of them) and I know what I speak of.
Many, and I used to be one of these, think it is wrong to "expose" a pastor. But I learned the hard way this lesson......
These men depend on our deep faith to fulfill there selfish, personal and career action in the name of Christ. The more they can divert religious thoughts to unknowing members, - so no one will notice their real personal goals - the more power and wealth they achieve!!
I know only because I have seen it and heard it with my own mouth and ears that I speak with this knowledge.
Tom and I are similar in many ways, but I was on the inside loop for years and had personal experiences with so many tares in the ministry.
They will lie and cover up issues without any hesitation.
Doug 4:15..So true. Many are called but few are chosen. The ability of some of these ego maniacs to use the pulpit to enrich themselves is unbelievable!!!
The sad thing is the unsuspecting member who is convinced he/she (the member) has done something wrong if they challenge or ask questions of leadership in any way. They have been taught that the pastor is the absolute authority, and the mere member would be in trouble with God if the member should challenge the pastor. This of course is why so many members turn the blind eye and obey. The members think they are serving God and being Holy, when they are really enabling the preachers to continue enriching themselves with a pretend ministry. This is why so many have had their faith "rocked" and why so many leave the church. Granted not all pastor/preachers are in this vein. There are legitimate preachers that must contend with the doubt planted by others.
" They have been taught that the pastor is the absolute authority, and the mere member would be in trouble with God if the member should challenge the pastor. "
You need to read about the famous airport meeting when some were trying to fire Paige Patterson from Criswell.
Charles Stanley said that those who came against him when he first started FBC Atlanta either got cancer or lost their jobs. See, he believes they were punished for daring to go against "him".
This thinking has been around a long time. It is ingrained in the leadership of the SBC and passed on to guys like Brunson and Gaines who were their protege's. We are just seeing it up close and personal now because of advanced communications and the little guy can now tell millions on blog what is going on.
It is amazing what one can get by with just because they are on a stage behind a pulpit. I fear for their souls. They seem so much like the Levite Priests of the OT that the God railed against.
John Wylie - I, for one, am glad you are here. You are able to present positions, many I disagree with, in a manner that is sincere, honest and respectful. Keep on sharing with us. If more pastors were engaging and transparent like you, there would be no need for Watchdog blogs.
Certainly there would be no need to blog about John Wylie, since he would engage you on his blog or yours.
Nicely done, pastor Wylie.
Cyclops,
That is very kind of you to say, thank you.
Some very interesting posts on Church Discipline from Founders Ministries Blog [Tom Ascol]:
A long journey in church discipline-Pt. 1
A long journey in church discipline-Pt. 2
A long journey in church discipline-Pt. 3
9/5 11:12PM: No one here is disrespectful to Pastor Wylie, just factual. This is a problem with bully preachers today (no I am not calling Wylie a bully), they want to remain the end all be all authority. When they speak as the authority all others are to shut up. If you go back on his comments, he was the one that was disrespectful first, after a blogger disagreed with his comments and his bible version. It was a simple disagreement and, in my opinion, he became insulting to the blogger. Pastors are not accustomed to being disagreed with, it is very difficult for many to accept negative comments, as they have been put on pedastals and hero worshipped for so long they think they are truly the hero. That being said he was gentleman enough to tone down his rhetoric and engage in a civil dialogue later. I look forward also to Pastor Wylies contributions. At least he, as you stated, is willing to talk to the common people, and I commend him for that. I have no "beef" with him. Kindest regards to all!
Hi John, I noticed over on Wade's NAMB thread that you said you are not in the SBC. Do you mind sharing what denomination is the church you pastor?
"If you go back on his comments, he was the one that was disrespectful first, after a blogger disagreed with his comments and his bible version. It was a simple disagreement and, in my opinion, he became insulting to the blogger."
I agree with this assessment.
Currently our denomination is missionary baptist with the American Baptist Association. I do not however hold to their landmark doctrine.
I would recommend we all dialogue with Pastor Wylie with understanding and respect. It might show other pastors that there is nothing to fear (cowards?) by coming on here and defending their views.
This blog was started due to some questions and concerns that went ignored. Imagine if Mac had simply done like Pastor Wylie and kindly dialogued about these concerns.
There would have been no reason for a discipline committee to be formed, no reason to put JSO Detective Robert A. Hinson on that committee, no reason for Hinson to ask Asst State Attorney Siegel to issue subpoena's to Comcast, no reason for records to be lost or destroyed, no reason to slander Tom in the newspaper by calling him a coward, mentally unstable and a sociopath, no need to trespass Tom and his wife, no need for harsh deacon resolutions and no resulting lawsuits against the above and the church.
Yes, John Wylie has a lot to teach pastors. Maybe he should write a book: "How to deal with critical bloggers." Or maybe Mac is working on that book right now? To show everyone how NOT to do it.
10:41: "Kindly dialogue" is a matter of interpretation. However, I do agree with the rest of your premise. Perhaps some gifted blogger should write a book on how to deal with arrogant preachers. Maybe they could learn how to communicate with people who have questions with "understanding and respect".
Tucson is another city that they're doing this. I'm hoping that it won't be too effective, but I'm afraid it might.
Perhaps some gifted blogger should write a book on how to deal with arrogant preachers. Maybe they could learn how to communicate with people who have questions with "understanding and respect".
September 6, 2010 2:39 PM
They would learn how to communicate real quick if they had to earn a living in the real world.
As it is, they expect you to obey or not question their teaching and yet, PAY them for the honor at the same time! Great gig!
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