In the coming weeks we're going to be looking again at some recent church marketing trends regarding church giving and the tithing doctrine.Having understood clearly that the Bible does not require tithing 10% of one's income as the dividing line between Christian obedience and disobedience, yet so many preachers DO teach this false doctrine, I have struggled with the answer to this question:
Do these preachers who teach the 10% tithe as a requirement KNOW that the tithe is not required yet do it out of pragmatism thinking they must to maintain revenue streams, OR, do they really believe it?
I have come to the conclusion that the former is most often the case, and I we will pursue the reason for this in the weeks ahead on this blog.
Just as I struggle to understand how preachers still teach this doctrine when it is clear that it is not biblical to tell Christians they will not be blessed, or they are "robbing God" when they don't fork over 10% to their church, I'm sure pastors who teach this doctrine struggle with the answer to this question:
"If I and other preachers are teaching Christians in our churches that the tithe is binding on Christians, and to not tithe hurts the cause of their Savior and causes God to curse them, why do so few (less than 10%) obey and tithe to their church? Why are 90% of professing Christians disobedient in this important area that is hurting the funding of the gospel?"
I think I have the answer: most people in the pews have been converted by being presented a "false gospel".
If the tithe is binding on Christians, if failing to tithe causes God to curse you as a believer, if Christians not tithing causes God to unleash his wrath on a nation of non-tithers, if not tithing causes our marriages to fail and our kids to be rotten because we are living in stolen houses and driving stolen cars, then here is the question:
Why then, is tithing not part of the modern gospel message?
Is it not disingenuous to tell someone that God has a wonderful plan for your life if you will just ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins, ask Jesus to come in to your heart, and you are going to heaven....but AFTER they pray the prayer, and AFTER they get baptized, you add some requirements to that message and now tell them, "oh, by the way, if you want to be blessed and not cursed, IF you want to have a successful marriage, if you don't want to be a modern day Christian thief, you have to give 10% of your income...and you have to give it to the church. It's required, it's in the Bible."
Why not tell people that up front when witnessing? It wouldn't be hard. Throw Malachi 3:10 at the end of the Roman's Road and gently explain that as a non-believer you have been robbing God of your life and of your resources, and by giving your life to Jesus you also are committing to give at least 10% of your income to your church - and in return, God will "open the windows of heaven" as a Christian. Why wait in explaining that? It is not a deep theological concept that must wait. Shouldn't people be able to "count the cost" before committing to Jesus? Most sinners know how to move a decimal point. Even little kids understand the 10 cents on the dollar concept.
Let's face it: the tithing doctrine has become a modern day Christian "bait and switch"...lure people into getting saved and joining your church by telling them that God loves them and has a wonderful plan for their lives if only they will accept Jesus. We tell people: "all you have to do is pray this prayer, walk an aisle, and you are saved." Even baptism is not required, we say, it is just symbolic. Just believe, and you are saved.
But after they are saved, the tithing preachers change the message: you will suffer at the hands of God if you don't give 10%. You're robbing God, you're greedy, you're harming the gospel, you're causing God to bring wrath on our nation.
So tithe-teaching preachers - at least be intellectually honest - and mention the tithe in your gospel presentations. Stop lying when you say "God doesn't want your money, He wants you." That is not true, according to you, God wants at least 10% of their cash flow to be delivered to your church, so tell them that UP FRONT.
Tithe-believing evangelists and soul-winning Christians: tell the people you are witnessing to about this tithe requirement so people can count the cost of following Jesus. Then, and only then, will we see a rise in the percentage of tithers - as we weed out those looking for a free trip to heaven, and convert those who are truly willing to commit their all (and 10% of their finances) to Jesus. Percentages of tithers will go up as people are given the opportunity to count the true cost of following Jesus, and many decide Jesus is not for them because they can't afford a 10% tithe to the local 501(c)3 religious organization.
After all, could Jesus not have been any clearer about "counting the cost" in Luke 14?
"And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it." Luke 14:27-28 (NKJV)
141 comments:
I think the tithing doctrine has been genetically inherited by a majority of people. What i mean is that they haven't had the opportunity to be taught anything else from the time they became Christian.
I grew up in a baptist church with a legalistic father and never heard anything about tithing being invalid. It wasn't until i reached college when a friend asked me questions about it.
But once somebody is introduced to the truth, there would have to be a deep, core, radical change in order to transform their mind from tithing to non-tithing. Tithing is practically embedded in their DNA. There are centuries of tithing being practiced in the Church, their pastor teaches about it, their family supports it and all their friends agree with tithing.
This is a tremendous battle to fight, and a strong wall of defense to get past. It's just a miracle that anyone can change their beliefs on tithing.
Once someone hears the truth, a few other things prevent their conversion. For pastors, it's obviously the dependence on tithing to facilitate their ministry and the lack of faith to allow the Holy Spirit to influence giving. At this point, it's more imperative to keep the ministry running than to practice faith or give grace a test-run.
For others, there's fear of the curse, retribution from friends, family and peers.
For myself, once i studied the scripture, i couldn't bear going against the truth. My conscience was not ready to be rid of tithing, but my heart and mind knew what the truth was. Every bone in my body wanted to continue forcing myself to give 10%. The word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword, and for my benefit, it was the best weapon in the battle against tithing. Neither my family, peers, pastors, nor centuries of tithing in the Church was a strong enough weapon to break down the truth in God's word.
- jared
More talk on tithing...wonderful. :/ WD, there is more to the kingdom than tithing but you don't seem to get that. If you don't want to tithe then don't. Realize there are far more important things in the Scritpures than tithing. You have an obsession that is bordering on idolatry. Move on.
If You do not want to Tithe, Don't Tithe.
If You want to hate on those that do Tithe, keep your opinion to yourself.
If you don't have anything better to write about than hating on tithing, you are really to be pitied.
I feel sorry for you....they have meds for stuff like this.
I agree, there is so much more than tithing, but not to many of the mega pastors who push it. They make the 10% giving threshold the most important test of a person's spirituality. I would say it has become an idol to those who push such a false doctrine for purpose of getting their hands on people's money.
Where I believe wrong is teaching that ones first obligation is to give your 100% tithe to the church you are a member of.
The scripture I read tells me to give to the storehouse. We tithe & love to pay our rent to the local church. We love to give to our missionaries, we love to give to our private Christian schools and colleges.
We give from our hearts and have been blessed abundantly. Thankfully we were taught by a loving pastor the "joy" of giving
At the end of the day we saw how Mac Brunson promoting himself spending the people's money's spoke loud & clear that we were not on the same financial page so moved on from being under the authority of a millionaire pastor like this man.
Thanks be to all you pastor's and missionaries who do count on our tithes to teach the gospel - you are the storehouses that God never fails to meet your needs.
STS. . .you need to stop reading this blog as it is obvious the subjects aren't good for your nerves.
So, Slow is that how you treat your wife when you disagree? Do you accuse her of hating or does she tell you, you hate her?
Still do not understand how the church is the storehouse.
Hi, Watchdog,
I really appreciate your articles on tithing. It seems that so few understand the truth of Scripture in this matter, so it's great that you take time to bring light on the topic.
Perhaps you are right in saying that most preachers who teach tithing know better and are just being pragmatic. But I think it is more likely that, just like the people in the pews, it is all they have been taught.
As as Steward/Jared pointed out, tithing been drilled into folks, with no other possible interpretation of the Bible being taught by the vast majority of preachers for centuries. And all of those preachers started out hearing it from their preachers and seminary professors, who heard it from theirs, etc.
I graduated from a very conservative, Bible-believing (Baptist) seminary, then worked there for over a decade. I also worked on a doctorate in theology for a few years (never got to finish). So I've been around many, many preachers and seminary profs for long periods of time, and gotten to know them as just regular folks. There is a great tendency for the teachers and students to think as a group, to consider some ideas acceptable and biblical and others wrong, without any significant study or reflection. That is, some truths are just considered axiomatic, a given, as obvious and unquestionable as the virgin birth or the resurrection of Jesus.
Tithing is one of those doctrines. It's sacrosanct, and if you question it while part of such a group, you might as well be questioning the existence of God. You will be considered either a heretic, or even worse, a "liberal". I know this because in all my time in that environment I knew only a couple of guys (students, not profs) who questioned the tithing doctrine, and they were quickly labeled as liberals, and thus their ideas were summarily dismissed.
Sad to say, I was one who dismissed their ideas at the time. It's hard to imagine the level of indoctrination at today's Southern Baptist seminaries. They honestly believe they are teaching the truth (and in most things they are), so they have no qualms about telling people what they should believe and that anything else is wrong. I suppose that wouldn't be a bad approach in the most essential matters of the faith, but, in a conservative seminary, many doctrines are elevated to essential or near essential status. Not necessarily essential for salvation, but essential for being pleasing to God.
It was quite some time after leaving the world of preachers, where common beliefs are constantly reinforced, before I questioned some of those beliefs (like tithing) and actually studied for myself and came to understand that not everything I'd been taught was right. But for preachers and church staff members, the reinforcement of their common beliefs never ends.
So I truly believe that most preachers truly believe that tithing is required for obedience to God. Most of them, anyway -- there are probably some pure pragmatists out there who know better and teach it anyway just to keep the money coming in. I don't think that's the case most of the time -- but, again, perhaps you are right.
Sorry this is so long, just wanted to offer another perspective.
WD,
One more thing -- is it really all that strange that those who believe in tithing don't consider it part of the gospel?
Isn't there a difference between what is required to enter into a relationship with God and what is required to be obedient to Him after being saved?
Slow to speak should be quick to shut up! Doesn't seem like he's slow to speak to me. Seems like he's got a real trigger-happy mouth!
I have noticed how similar the Baptist church has become to the church of Christ. Everything from the rapture to tithing to anything else.We got it right and if you don't agree with us then you are not a Christian. My wife and I left the Baptist denomination for good after seeing the light several years ago.
Junkster,
I enjoyed reading your informative comments. I, too, think a huge part of it is that the preachers are bathed in the tithing notion from birth and are surrounded by others who believe likewise, so it's a very re-enforced belief.
Also you mentioned being labeled a "liberal" again. That seems to be the ultimate sin in some Baptist circles. Maybe the conservatives who are so down on liberals should instead try respecting them and could possibly even learn something from them. As you mentioned that you yourself did learn something from a liberal. Anyway, good post and comments.
You don't have to give 10%, just as long as you give something.
You don't have to tell the whole truth, as long as you don't completely lie.
You can engage in premarital sex, as long as you practice it safely with someone you truly love.
You can commit murder, as long as the person rightfully deserves it.
Morality without standards and limits is immoral.
Jimmy Swaggart preached hot and heavy against porn.
Why?
He was hooked on porn.
Why is this Blog SO against Tithing?
Answer: The author of this Blog DOES NOT GIVE ANYTHING!!!
You always preach hard against that which YOU are guilty!
What is dangerous is that Dog is leading many of you down the same path of selfishness and consumerism.
Be careful who you follow my friends....
You may end up being greedy and bitter too.
Junkster - thanks for sharing your experience, that is very eye opening. More and more Christians are having similar experiences, realizing that what they've been taught and believed doesn't even come close to squaring with scripture.
You make an excellent point about people in the pew that have been taught it for so long it is just a part of their psyche. There is no way that they can ever concede that it ain't in da book. I know people who don't tithe, excuse their non-tithing, but still say it is in the book and that Christians must tithe and they will not listen to any arguments. To question the tithing doctrine is to question the existence of God and the deity of Christ - that is how seriously they take it.
Look at the people already posting here and what their accusations are. They won't defend the doctrine coherently, they only attack. They are zealots, Pharisees of the worst kind.
How will we know that these men don't really believe it and they teach it out of pragmatism? When they realize TEACHING THE TITHE DOESN'T WORK, or that it is not the most effective way to raise revenue, and they begin to teach something else. And guess what? We're already seeing some of this.
My point on this post about a "false gospel"....in many ways tithing teachers have made tithing THE benchmark act of obedience that determines the level of one's spirituality. There is no other act of obedience that is at this level. Your devotion to your wife and kids is not a measure of your devotion. How hard you work to provide for your family, the amount of money you give to the poor, or how much love you have or how much you pray, nothing else is set up to gauge your devotion to Christ as giving your dough to the church. Ed Young did a masterful job of making this point in his 10/10/10 sermon.
So this should be shared to those who are considering converting to Christ. They should be told up front, that if you decide to follow Christ, it will cost you 10% of your income, at a minimum, and you will have to give all 10% to your church, and not to any other institutions.
And that is not a negative message to those considering Christ. Because Malachi 3:10 is a positive message, that if you follow Christ, and then tithe, THEN God will open the windows of heaven and bless you.
And of course, we know why they won't tell them. :)
Wade Burleson > Posts on Tithing
The "false gospel", Tom, is the idea that God doesn't require a defined standard of sacrifice, committment, obedience and dedication to Him on our part, through whatever way we serve Him whether it be through prayer, bible reading, tithing/giving, witnessing, etc.
That's what your telling us.
If 10% is not required, then please tell us what is. 5%, 15%, 9.9%?
Where do you draw the line and say this is enough, not enough, plenty enough, etc?
Butcher - you've made my point.
The defined standard of sacrifice is Jesus Christ. I thought Jesus was enough, but not to the tithing teachers. It is Jesus' sacrifice, PLUS our holy 10% sacrifice.
So you say the standard of sacrifice is 10%, and nothing less.
MacArthur called it "easy believism" back in the mid 80's, and the tithing preachers have said that 10% is required.
I'm just saying that IF you believe that, please be honest and tell converts BEFORE they pray and receive Jesus, not after.
:)
Tom,
The defined standard of sacrifice is Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ gave everything. He died for you and me. He gave us everything he had to give. The least we could give him is one-tenth.
With that in mind, 10% would not be enough. If he gave us everything, then we as Christians should be willing to give everything. That's why people believe 10% is a good starting point! Because we could never give everything!
Amen. Just tell converts about the 10% "starting point" BEFORE they pray.
Tradition is the reason, I think for continuing to advocate for the tithe. I as a pastor have recieved some disagreement with my own church memebers. The treasurer remarked too much teaching that the tithe was practiced under the law and wasn't really in effect under grace may deminish the church's income. I believe we should adhere to what Paul said lay aside according to what the Lord has blessed u with. That could be 15 or 20%. it goes to show had something scriptural or not can be practiced if it is preached consistently.
Tom,
If you don't believe it is scripturally sound that a mandatory 10% tithe is required of all believers, why did you join a church 20 years ago that adamently preached that doctrine?
I can only assume that you once believed in the tithe doctrine, but now you don't. Please, explain to us why the change.
turnureyesonJC said...
You always preach hard against that which YOU are guilty!
What is dangerous is that Dog is leading many of you down the same path of selfishness and consumerism.
Be careful who you follow my friends....
You may end up being greedy and bitter too.
Then I guess we can all assume that you are a selfish, greedy, bitter consumerist and follower of Watchdog rather than Christ.
Right?
If one gives until it hurts, if it is really a sacrifice, it shouldn't matter what percentage it is.
HM
"Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously."
Can’t give you a “standard” because that is between you and God because God tells us:
"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver,"
Now think about the phrase “under compulsion.” Does that not mean don’t listen to the man yelling and screaming that it’s 10% and nothing but 10%.
Is this the place that I tell you that having learned that it is cheerful giving and that I am not compelled to tithe that I have cheerfully increased my giving?
"Now think about the phrase “under compulsion.” "
This teaching has nothing to do with who is preaching, or screaming, or being mellow about the subject. Rather, we don't give our tithe because a man preaches it, we give it because we long to be obedient and are glad of heart to be in such a position.
Is being obedient to God and what His word says (no matter who rants and raves) an act of compulsion?
If the tithe in the OT was for supporting the Levites who could not own land like the other tribes, you could see the set-up of preachers now vs. that scenario. Preachers now can own land, be wealthy, have another job besides preaching, plus get tax breaks that those in the pews do not qualify for.
If the tithe was also to support the poor, charities galore do more of that than churches do, and the government does tons of helping the poor also, with your tax money, which you have already paid to the government.
I forget the 3rd reason for the OT tithe.
To some people, they may be very devoted Christians, very devoted to Christ and following the Bible, and it really bugs them when something is preached that does not seem to be the correct interpretation of scripture. It gets under their skin if their preacher is up there insisting they must do so-and-so, and they realize what he's saying is truly a misapplication of scripture. Doesn't necessarily mean they are less devoted to Christ.
Lynn excellent. Thats why we are all to study the Bible for ourselves.
Thought this might be of some interest. According to Perry Noble, God seems to be a mobster running a protection racket on His adopted children.
"If the tithe in the OT was for supporting the Levites who could not own land like the other tribes, you could see the set-up of preachers now vs. that scenario. Preachers now can own land, be wealthy, have another job besides preaching, plus get tax breaks that those in the pews do not qualify for."
So is it because the laws have changed to allow preachers to work, own land, receive tax breaks... that god's word is altered?
"If the tithe was also to support the poor, charities galore do more of that than churches do, and the government does tons of helping the poor also, with your tax money, which you have already paid to the government."
because charities have risen out of the ground and choose to help those in need and the government has programs to help them also, the Christian ought not to tithe?
"To some people, they may be very devoted Christians, very devoted to Christ and following the Bible, and it really bugs them when something is preached that does not seem to be the correct interpretation of scripture. It gets under their skin if their preacher is up there insisting they must do so-and-so, and they realize what he's saying is truly a misapplication of scripture. Doesn't necessarily mean they are less devoted to Christ."
So a preacher preaches what he believes about the tithe and your interpretation is different, is he a less devoted Christian? At the least you are saying he is unable to apply scripture properly. maybe this person is just not as devoted to the word as you are... is that what you mean?
It seems you talk down to a preacher who offends you for talking down to you.
I'm sure that's not what you mean, is it?
I think the issue is not whether we give, or even a specific guideline as to how much we should give, but a non-New Testament standard being preached as a requirement on Christians.
Our church explicitly sets out a tithe as a GUIDELINE, as an amount that will help the church to do the things we choose to do in helping the poor, providing services to the community, etc. BTW it is in a poor, inner city neighborhood in one of the poorest cities/counties in the country, and many members live in suburbs.
For me, the issue is being generous in the name of Jesus, generous with my time, my abilities and my money, not solely to the church, but sometimes through the church. Helping poor neighbors with groceries, transporting them to the doctor, giving time to help them with tax returns and dealing with the appraisal district's over-valuing their homes, etc. Helping the abused get protection from their abusers.
What we give to the church should be the small amount of our commitment of time, talent and resources to the cause of Christ.
Amen Arce. It is clear that the NT standard is to be generous, regular, and cheerful in your giving. There is no set percentage, AT ALL. My wife and I at FBCJ were generous in how we contributed our money and our time, and I never came close to giving 10%. I gave at a 3% to 4% level most years, while also paying to have my kids in private Christian school. I know that I was being generous, and in God's will with how we used our finances.
But in my situation and others like me to the tithing preachers are robbers, we won't enjoy God's blessings, God will cause our fridges to fail and our roofs to leak, and our kids to be messed up.
But as I have said most of these preachers are "tithing pragmatists", they teach it because they think it works to maximize revenue.
When the realize it doesn't work they will change, or if they can segment their market they will teach it to some, but teach something entirely different to another market segment to maximize revenue from that market.
I have a prime example of this coming this week.
Jimmy Swaggart preached hot and heavy against porn.
Why?
He was hooked on porn.
Why is this Blog SO against Tithing?
Answer: The author of this Blog DOES NOT GIVE ANYTHING!!!
You always preach hard against that which YOU are guilty!
Steve Gaines rarely passes up an opportunity to rail against homosexuality, porn, having so much as a drop of alcohol in your house, let alone actually drinking it or I guess even using it in cooking (the alcohol cooks out), and females dressing immodestly. It's amazing how he can work any or all of those subjects into a sermon on a totally unrelated topic, but he manages.
If one subscribes to your theory... well... hmmm. The Gaineses' daughters have often dressed extremely immodestly and his hypocrisy in this area is blatant, but I'm not quite ready to label him a beer-drinking, porn-watching homosexual.
Speaking of porn, someone in the previous thread mentioned SG having a problem with a hypothetical soloist ("Betty the bank robber") not tithing, but I guess it's okay that a real life, longtime, frequent soloist is currently writing and publishing (to the entire metro area) his own story about his 13-year "addiction" to internet porn (since age 13) that was still going on as recently as six months ago. (FWIW, I don't believe there's such a thing as an "addiction" to porn. One can repeatedly yield to what is for some a very strong temptation, but unlike drugs or alcohol, one is not going to go into physical withdrawal if he doesn't view porn.)
I was thinking about FL governor Rick "Soulless Eyes" Scott and his edict that those who receive State assistance will be required to submit to drug testing. Apparently he's concerned that State funds will be diverted from intended purposes.
Wouldn't it then be proper to declare that churches are forbidden to receive or solicit those State funds?
I know one woman who cares for her disabled grandson. From the State money account, she writes monthly checks to Paula White, Benny Hinn, 700Club, Mike Murdock, Perry Stone, and God knows how many others. I don't know the amounts.
It has been "prophesied" her grandson will be healed. How could she dare not make tithes and offerings?
Those scoundrels prey upon the poor and weak by thinly-veiled selling of miracles. Some local churches (incl SBC) do the same to varying degrees.
As long as they refuse to be completely transparent and open their books for anyone, I see no reason why they should be trusted for a moment.
They certainly should be kept away from tax-funded monies.
By the way, Scott's wife ("not me, it's my wife's") owns a company which provides a service---drug testing.
Isn't that just rich?
It is amazing how YOU want to make it seem that those of us that Tithe are just plain stupid.
I guess it was Stupid that Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler to give everything to God.
It must have been Stupid for the Apostle Paul to tell us in 2 Cor. 8:7 to "excel in the grace of giving". What a jerk YOU must think Paul was!
How Stupid YOU must think Jesus was in Luke 11:41 when He said "Sell that which you have".
I wonder when we stand before the Father....Tithers or Non-tithers...
Who will really be Stupid?
Off Topic: I would encourage readers to listen to Pastor Wade Burleson's sermon today: Emmanuel - Enid > Saved from Hell in a Jail Cell in Cozumel [Sunday, March 27, 2011]
Arce,
I love your comments. Whatever people do to serve Christ thru the church is just a small part of their Christian life. Amen. The church is also like a middleman. Why not eliminate the middleman and do good deeds directly for others that are in your life? Why give to a bureaucracy like the church or the SBC?
Would God want you giving to those who waste your money with perks for themselves? Those with the perks so obviously do not fear God, or they would take great care of "God's money."
Jon Estes,
"So is it because the laws have changed to allow preachers to work, own land, receive tax breaks... that god's word is altered?
YES! It's a whole different system. We are not Jews living in OT times. We also don't kill our disobedient children and practice polygamy and kill witches. It's 2011, and we live in the United States of America.
"because charities have risen out of the ground and choose to help those in need and the government has programs to help them also, the Christian ought not to tithe?"
I think Christians should use their money in ways that actually help people. One way they do this is by paying their taxes and giving to charities who can both help people on a grander scale. Of course they should choose their charities carefully. They can't really control how the government wastes money of course. So yes, instead of tithing, they can also just help people in their community or help their actual neighbors and friends or their relatives.
A pastor and church staff are not the needy, the sick, the orphan, the prisoner. They are able-bodied people who can help themselves and get help from their friends if needed.
"So a preacher preaches what he believes about the tithe and your interpretation is different, is he a less devoted Christian? At the least you are saying he is unable to apply scripture properly. maybe this person is just not as devoted to the word as you are... is that what you mean?
It seems you talk down to a preacher who offends you for talking down to you."
I don't think the preacher is a less devoted Christian because he truly believes in tithing. If that's what he believes scripture teaches for Christians, then fine. I do disagree, but is there anything that Christians do all agree on from the Bible? I can't think of anything. And besides, I'm not Christian. I'm agnostic. I am not devoted to the word. I think people should see that the Bible causes much harm and confusion. Christians fight about what the Bible says constantly.
I do get annoyed with some types of preachers-mainly the fundy types who think everything they say is directly from the mouth of God and they could never, ever be wrong. But I don't have personal hard feelings toward any particular pastors-just some attitudes that rub me the wrong way.
I feel very passionate sometimes about this stuff, and I appreciate your responding to my comments. I don't know you personally, so my criticisms stem from my thoughts about what I've experienced in my life, not any personal dislike or disrespect for anyone who's commented.
I have a friend that doesn't believe in Tithing.
He has 2 homes, 2 boats, 4 cars, and yet says he cannot afford to tithe.
What??
We wonder why Missions is underfunded....we are Greedy!
"Well...it's not biblical...it's those ol' mean greedy preachers....I don't believe in it...waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!"
Grow up-It's not all about YOU!!
Glad YOU could send your kids to Christian Schools....Must be nice to be able to afford luxuries like that.
I would rather give my money to send Missionaries to India...
I'm just saying...........
Jesus also said go and sin no more. He also said I will dine with you to Zacchaues. He additionally told the one thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise. He said nothing about tithing to anyone. He didn't even have any money he sent Peter to go fish in order to pay the tax. Let me know when a SBC pastor has sold all that he has as some of you claim. Also, how about all the speaking gigs, cruises, and perks that go with iron clad contracts by those who hold office as mega pastor and maybe some would believe more in tithing than they currently see going on inside these marble palaces. Clouds without water, blind guides is what I see in a lot of instances.
IRS gets 15-36%, Fl sales tax 7%, county tax 7-15% of property value, gasoline tax, run off fees, JEA tax, telephone tax, cell phone tax, drivers license fee tax, tag fees, oil disposal fees, garbage collection fee, runoff water fees. Do you get the picture. No wonder only very few people tithe. Most all of their money is already taken away so they have little left over to provide for their family and these are the employed. God help those unemployed.
If tithing is about obedience then should it not be an ordinance? As far as I know Baptist have two ordinances, baptism and the Lord’s supper.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.”
Salvation is by grace and grace alone there is nothing and I mean nothing we can do to be saved apart from grace, period. To say that tithing is an act of obedience is to say there is this one work I have to do to gain God’s acceptance. And there are plenty, but not all, who tithe who boast about their tithing.
“Is being obedient to God and what His word says (no matter who rants and raves) an act of compulsion?”
Yes it is, if you are doing it because a man, no matter whom or what he is, stands in front of a crowd and harangues or compels you to do it. If on the other hand, you have prayed and sought God’s will and He has led you to give 10% cheerfully and willingly and under grace then I have no argument with you. What if, however, you are giving 10% and God has made it clear you should be giving 11, 12, 13 percent or more. There are many giving 10% who are as disobedient. As far as God’s word is concerned, the last time I checked 2 Corinthians 9:6-7 is in God’s word. And so are the following:
Exodus 25:2 "Tell the Israelites to bring me an offering. You are to receive the offering for me from each man whose heart prompts him to give.
Deuteronomy 15:10 Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.
1 Chronicles 29:9 The people rejoiced at the willing response of their leaders, for they had given freely and wholeheartedly to the LORD. David the king also rejoiced greatly.
1 Chronicles 29:17 I know, my God, that you test the heart and are pleased with integrity. All these things have I given willingly and with honest intent. And now I have seen with joy how willingly your people who are here have given to you.
Proverbs 11:25 A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.
Romans 12:8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
2 Corinthians 8:12 For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.
Philemon 1:14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do will be spontaneous and not forced.
So again I say give, give generously, give cheerfully, not give as the Lord directs not because of some artificial standard.
More talk on tithing...wonderful. :/ WD, there is more to the kingdom than tithing but you don't seem to get that. If you don't want to tithe then don't. Realize there are far more important things in the Scritpures than tithing. You have an obsession that is bordering on idolatry. Move on.
March 26, 2011 9:24 AM
Oh my. When someone is teaching that we are robbing God or will be cursed if we do not tithe, that is adding to the Gospel and most definitely should be discussed in depth.
It seems to be a sore point with YOU.
Why don't you just stop coming here if you don't like it?
Butcher priest, where did 10% tithe for today come from? In the OT, it is more like 23%.
Can you show us the 10% in the NT?
I am not opposed to anyone giving any specific amount, and a tithe is a good place to start. But the scripture teaches that all we have is a gift from God and that we are stewards of it.
If we are going to take the OT standard, there were two tithes every year and a third tithe once every three years. So the amount would be 23-1/3 percent! Try preaching that some time. And then there are all the other OT laws -- dietary, fabric, stonings, etc.
The WD's point is that the tithe is not a NT obligation. The obligation is to give whatever we can and to wisely manage all that we have. And I, for one, do not think it is wise stewardship to give money to build extravagant buildings (pure rivalry among churches!) and pay extravagant salaries and benefits to people to get up and preach nonsense like that tithing is necessary to be in good stead with God.
Mac and others need to follow what Jesus said. Sell it all and give it to the poor, and live among them as did our Savior. Then maybe the church would be justified in paying a reasonable working man's wages to the pastor.
"So a preacher preaches what he believes about the tithe and your interpretation is different, is he a less devoted Christian? At the least you are saying he is unable to apply scripture properly. maybe this person is just not as devoted to the word as you are... is that what you mean?"
It really seems strange that a person who is paid to preach would not know the bible better.
Perhaps they do know better but think teaching a tithe for the NC is the best way to get steady income. Perhaps they cannot rely on the Holy Spirit to convict hearts to pay them a decent wage? Or perhaps the Holy Spirit might convict hearts to give generously to another need instead of someone to preach.
Seems perhaps pastors are the ones with little faith when it comes to money.
"“Is being obedient to God and what His word says (no matter who rants and raves) an act of compulsion?”
Yes it is, if you are doing it because a man, no matter whom or what he is, stands in front of a crowd and harangues or compels you to do it."
Then, in the scenario you give, the problem is more with the hearer rather than the speaker.
"If on the other hand, you have prayed and sought God’s will and He has led you to give 10% cheerfully and willingly and under grace then I have no argument with you. What if, however, you are giving 10% and God has made it clear you should be giving 11, 12, 13 percent or more. There are many giving 10% who are as disobedient."
Well, Malachi does not stop at 10%, it begins there. The word used in Malachi is tithe and it means 10%.
Read it again... tithes and offerings.
Any act of obedience is an act of grace.
"Oh my. When someone is teaching that we are robbing God or will be cursed if we do not tithe, that is adding to the Gospel and most definitely should be discussed in depth."
In other words, don't preach or teach it because it is irrelevant. That pesky OC just causes problems.
If God's words says those who do not tithe will be cursed, do we just deny His word? Not me. Do we just make it an historical precept? Not me.
Glad YOU could send your kids to Christian Schools....Must be nice to be able to afford luxuries like that.
For most, these are not wealthy people & it is a sacrifice to send their kids to a private school and they can't afford any luxuries. Investing in your kids lives one gets a 100% return with raising a loving and happy family.
I'm just saying too . .
It is amazing to me to see you Christians arguing over tithing. Why don't you spend some profitable time discussing why you are using your offbrand bibles. After all your friend Rick Warren thinks the bible Message is Ok. Wasn't the author of the Message listening to his FAMILIAR SPIRIT for years.
You men are causing discontent amongst yourselves.
Mac Brunson and the like will not change. Money is the name of the game. Any way they can get it.
Go after the offenders not each other.
Be wise!
If God's words says those who do not tithe will be cursed, do we just deny His word? Not me. Do we just make it an historical precept? Not me.
March 27, 2011 5:11 PM
It is not denying His Word to understand the covenants. I am not a Jew living in OC Israel but a Gentile who is taught in the Word to give generously to those in need to and help those going out to share the Gospel.
This would be like demanding the Gentile males be circumsized to please God.
Paul said we have been redeemed from the curse of the law. Jesus told Peter: The sons are free concerning the temple tax.
Our NC exhortion to "giving" is not a "tithe".... which was a tax for Israel in the OC.
If you believe in a "tithe", Jon, Perhaps you see yourself as a sort of Levite Priest. If so, then you are not allowed to own property, either. Hope you are carrying that part of the OC through, too. :o)
Well, Malachi does not stop at 10%, it begins there. The word used in Malachi is tithe and it means 10%.
Read it again... tithes and offerings.
Any act of obedience is an act of grace.
March 27, 2011 5:08 PM
Then so would stoning children be an act of grace according to your interpretation of the tithe for the NC.
BTW: Outward obedience means nothing when it comes to keeping the law. We are to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Grace is free and cannot be earned.
I wonder why "tithing" is not one of the fruits of the spirit?
Jon, we all know you depend on a "tithe" for your income.
Where is your faith? Why not just teach giving generously to brothers and sisters in need? Don't trust God?
If God's words says those who do not tithe will be cursed, do we just deny His word? Not me. Do we just make it an historical precept? Not me.
March 27, 2011 5:11 PM
Jon, you are admitting here that you teach people they are still under the OT law. That makes you a false teacher.
We are under the law of "love" Thanks to Jesus Christ.
The name of this Post is..
"Why so few Tithers?"
Answer...."Greed"!
Giving is in the Bible.
Tithing is in the Bible.
Sacrifice is in the Bible.
Offerings is in the Bible.
What Bible are you reading?
Let me get this right....
We want to get the Gospel out, feed the hungry, house the homeless....right?
How are we going to do that without someone giving?
HUH??????
This stuff is crazy folks....
Ministry costs....Love costs....
Caring costs......Hope costs....
It is very simple...
The people that are telling you not to Tithe DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE GOSPEL OR PEOPLE.
BE CAREFUL WHO YOU LISTEN TOO....
Ministies Cost.
What percent of Christians tithe?
Who knows?
I've known many christians who don't tithe for one reason or another. But it has been my experience that those who do tithe are the most active servants of our Lord.
We, individually, need to see if we are in the Lord's will in our giving. This is a heart thing folks. Stewardship is what we need to concentrate on.
Be wise!
Tom what is the status of your court case? Do you have a court date? Keep us posted. Thank you!
Giving 3 or 4% of our income to our church is not giving sacrificially. Spending money on a Christian education for our children does not qualify as giving back to the Lord with our financial resources. What you should be doing is sending your kids to public schools so they can share the gospel to unchurched youth. Then, you can take the money that would be spent on that education and give it to your church.
Shame on the Bible belt religious conservatives who send their kids to Christian schools. Shame on parents who believe spending money on a Christian education pleases God.
If you're a parent and you've sent your kids to a Christian school, you've committed great harm to the casue of Christ.
There's no need to send your kids to Christian schools. They don't need a Christian education. What they need our parents who raise them the right way at home, teach them the Bible, nurture them in admonition of the Lord and send them out to be a light in the dark world of public education. If you're relying on Christian educational institutions to teach your children how to be Christians, then shame on you. What a waste. That's what church is for. Bring your kids to church, don't stay home and blog on the computer and give your money to the church so your kids can go out and minister to the poor, needy children, and the lost. That's what mission trips are for. That's why people give more than 3 or 4% to their church, so the church can minister.
"Any act of obedience is an act of grace."
Where is that in the Bible?
"Well, Malachi does not stop at 10%, it begins there. The word used in Malachi is tithe and it means 10%.
Read it again... tithes and offerings."
Exactly. If you are going to teach Malachi then you have to preach tithes and offerings which adds up to more than 23%. Therefore teaching 10% is an incomplete obedience which is to say disobedience.
" It is amazing to me to see you Christians arguing over tithing. Why don't you spend some profitable time discussing why you are using your offbrand bibles. After all your friend Rick Warren thinks the bible Message is Ok. Wasn't the author of the Message listening to his FAMILIAR SPIRIT for years.
"
Perhaps you can tell me why Eugene Peterson is any worse than any other human bible translator throughout the ages? AFter all, King James would not allow the Puritans to be on the KJ translation council. They were Bishops,et al in the Anglican church that was founded by Henry the 8th...and we know for what reason it was founded. So he could divorce his wife and marry Anne Bolyen.
There are no "Inspired" translators. I would trust a scholarly linguist more than a theologian who owed his position to a king.
Obedience is a work. It is something you do. Grace is not of yourself.
"There's no need to send your kids to Christian schools. They don't need a Christian education. What they need our parents who raise them the right way at home, teach them the Bible, nurture them in admonition of the Lord and send them out to be a light in the dark world of public education."
Why don't we just send them out to fight our wars, too.
"What you should be doing is sending your kids to public schools so they can share the gospel to unchurched youth."
Most kids in church need to be told the Gospel. they think they go to be entertained.
23% is great!
What is not great are Christians who give 3% and then complain about how our Churches are not involved in Missions.
These same luke warm Christians send their children to Christian Schools to teach their kids....what do they teach?.....give God what is easy??
So...yea...23%....let's do it!
The Love of Money is the Root of all kinds of Evil.
That's what mission trips are for. That's why people give more than 3 or 4% to their church, so the church can minister.
March 27, 2011 6:51 PM
Uh Oh. Someone needs to tell Butcher Priest that the "church" is not a building but people. People minister. Not buildings. Not 501c3 organizations.
And we should not pay other people to minister for us in our own backyard. How silly. But that is exactly what people do.
Priest it’s like this; 1 Timothy 5:8, If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Tithing is in the Bible, true but so is rape, incest, murder, adultery, lying, stealing etc. Are you saying that because it is in the Bible them we are suppose to do it.
the fact is if you want your after life to be with Jesus avoid at all coust the rutribution at FBCJax. A is not well at the coven heaven.
ben fuller
Let's try to stick to the topic of this blog.
There are so few tithers because people, like Mr. Tom Rich, don't believe in a set standard for giving. Their thinking is this: Oh, I'll give 3% this month since my budget is tight. Ok, this month I'll give 4% since I received my tax return.
You non-tithers give money just as you please, free as the wind blows, at the time of your giving. That is NOT what God expects. Christ said, Whatever the cost, carry your cross. The widow didn't give 1 mite, she gave them all. She didn't look at her possessions and say, gee, I'm poor, I need to hang on to as much as I can or else I won't make it. NO. She gave it all.
We're Americans for crying out loud. We're not poor. Give 10%! Tithe! You won't go broke!
The bottom line is this. There are few tithers because there are few committed Christians willing to give and risk everything to advance the will of God.
And just as fervently I'll say:
If you give 3% or 5% or 10%, and you want to "give it to God" for his purposes in advancing the gospel of Jesus Christ, then do NOT give it to your church.
Churches spend 97% of the money coming in on those who give it.
Hardly any goes to the poor or to missions for that matter.
In fact, if you give 10% like the Butcher to your church, you aren't tithing. You're paying a fee for services rendered to you by your church. Give money to your church for services rendered, that is fine...but if you REALLY want to tithe to God, give 10% to someone in need, or some agency who is doing God's will and you will NOT receive any benefit from it.
Do that Butcher, then come talk to me. If you're giving your tithe Butcher to your church, you're not tithing, you're paying your dues for what you get back.
Butcher: Christian schools are filling a gap that public schools do not. Additionally, according to your concept the church is to assist the parents in teaching children the full scope of Christian priciples. The public schools have the children 10 hours a day five days a week when you count in the busing to and from school. The church only gets them 1 or 2 hours per week. Big obstacle to overcome when comparing 50/2. You need to get your head out of the sand. You must have a chip on your shoulder regarding home schooling and private instutions. You also need to realize that the public schools have consistently fallen in SAT scores since 1961. You will hardly ever hear of school bullying, drugs, and bringing weapons to private or home schools like in public schools. The government has thrown billions of dollars more and more every year and it still gets worse. Why does FBCJ, UC, Trinity, etc, etc do better? There is a great difference and many of the graduates go to Naval Academy, West Point and quite a number earn full scholarships. Also, most mission trips are paid by the parents and are little more than vacations. Live with it.
Anon 7:23pm. According to you, God failed to preserve His word when He said heaven and earth will pass away but My words will not? Boy have you got a lot to learn when it comes to scripture. The Bible says it and I for one beleive it as do most believers.
I am still waiting for an explanation on how the church is the storehouse.
I see where you're coming from Tom. But there are distinctions between charity work, and Christ's work. The two are different. Giving money to charity and well known non-profits doesn't please God. He could care less about that. Just giving money to charitys is no more than good works. Giving money to your church, coming together with other believers and saying hey, let's pile our money together and support this missionary, or build this elderly woman a new porch, or help this single mother pay her bills. That's Christ's work, and that's why you should tithe. Yes, church's have overhead and not every penny goes to missions or actual ministry, but non-profit organizations have overhead as well. And their CEOS are bringing in millions! Shame on them.
I would also say that throwing money at non-profits does nothing to spread the good news. How are you telling someone about Jesus by mailing in your tax deductible contribution to the local food shelter? You're not. When christian men and women tithe, as they're supposed to do, there's opportunity for lost souls to be saved. Tithe dollars support missionarys, who then can go out and tell the world about Jesus Christ. That elderly woman who needs a new porch/ramp for her wheelchair could then be witnessed to by the folks who put together the new porch using wood purchased from the tithe dollars. That single mother could receive financial assistance as well as encouragement through the gospel. So you see, there's a difference between charity work and Christs work. And when you tithe to your church, the only benefit you receive is the satisfaction of knowing you have helped the message of Jesus Christ to be heard, whether through missions, the music ministry of your church, local service projects and evangelism.
WishIhadKnown,
Read your old testament and study some commentary on why the church is referred to as the storehouse.
Then maybe you can change your name to NowIKnow.
By all means Butch, pile up your money at your church.
But on average, churches spend 97% of it on themselves, and not on the things you are saying.
So you are not "tithing" in the sense of the OT. You aren't even doing what Jesus clearly told you to do in the NT. You call it "tithing", I say you are paying your membership dues and have convinced yourself that you're giving to God.
Mr. Rich,
I would challenge your statistics. I do not believe you have seen every church budget from every single church that exists in the world. You cannot possibly say churchs spend on average x amount of money on y and z. That's nonsense and illogical and foolish to say. You're better than that.
If what you say is true, and you truly do have a distaste for church spending habits, why do you bother to give the meager 3 or 4% that you give now? If 97% of a 10% tithe is wasted, why even bother giving 3 or 4%? According to your knowledge of church spending across the nation, giving anything to a church is a waste, so why give it all to churchs? Why even bother to have a church? Why even go to church if you won't support the ministry of it?
In your view, all churchs are bad. There should be no money given to churchs. There should be no church. There should be no money to pay for buildings where christan brothers and sisters gather (church). People shouldn't go to church or give to a church, because hearing the Word preached is a benefit from financially supporting a pastor. People shouldn't give to a church or go to church because hearing uplifting godly music is a benefit from financially supporting the music ministry of that church, and that's bad. Where does it end, Tom?
Do we stop giving to church's entirely and forget about church?
No. That's crazy and your spiritual depravity has caused yourself to believe such nonsense.
In your zeal and fervor to defend yourself and attack me, you've extended my argument where I have not taken it.
I've never said people should not give to their church.
I've never said people should not give 10%.
I've always said that people should give according to NT principles of sacrifice, cheerfulness, and regularity.
The focus of my discussions on tithing are ALWAYS focused on the pastors who preach the tithe using guilt and misusing scripture.
I am taking you on because you are proud of your level of giving, and are incredibly judgmental declaring someone who is giving 3% as not being sacrificial.
And I am helping you see that you should not be so proud of your 10% or more, because if you want to know the truth the average church spends 97% of the money on themselves and the services they provide and the salaries and buildings. Very little goes to the things that Jesus said you should do. Not saying you shouldn't give, just don't be so proud and judgemental yourself, Butch.
I am certain that my 3% or 4% was much greater than your boastful 10% or more. I know that, and feel sorry for you really.
There should be no money given to churchs. There should be no church.
DR. Simpson these churches are nothing but professional money makers. They do not care a half a cent about your relationship with the maker. Smoke and mirrors adorn you. the entire system is not what not what god intended. Point blank, The money is going to their purse strings!!!
There are so few tithers because churches have a wordly model of operation satin would be grateful for.
I have not attacked you, I've just simply disagreed with you and offered opposing ideas and thoughts. I guess anyone who does this on your blog is attacking you. Sad.
Yes, I am judgemental. Especially towards someone who believes giving 3% of their income to a church is sacrificial. Giving 3% is not sacrificial, it's a damn shame.
That's what it is.
The way I see it Tom, is this.
If you want to call it a tithe, great. If you don't want to call it a tithe, that's fine. The whole issue here is not about what we call our practice of giving. The issue is about how we give, and how much we give.
You have the choice to give/or not to give to a church. If you believe a church's ministry is doing as God commands us in the NT, then you should be willing to support that ministry as much as you can, meaning, you should give way beyong a measley 3 or 4%. If you don't believe a church is doing what God wants it to, as required by the NT, then you should not support it all all and leave and find another church that does minister the correct way.
Forget this 3 or 4%. It's either all or nothing. You either support a church or you don't. And 3 or 4% is not supporting a church.
Yes, I am judgmental. Especially towards someone who believes giving 3% of their income to a church is sacrificial. Giving 3% is not sacrificial, it's a damn shame.
I respect your judgment because god has given you a brain to make decisions bad or good in your eyes. Any time a person gives it is sacrificial or disposing of something they has.
Yes, I am judgmental. Especially towards someone who believes giving 3% of their income to a church is sacrificial. Giving 3% is not sacrificial, it's a damn shame.
What is it then?
Absolutely. 3% is a damn shame.
That is exactly why many people give ZERO. Because to judgmental zealots like you, and the mega church tithing pastors, to give less than 10% is a damn shame.
So why give what is truly sacrificial, when people judge it as being a damn shame.
Your religion has made you sick, Butch. Very sick.
I'll tell you what giving 3% is.
It's a mockery of God. 9.99% is still short, but would be much better. For goodness sake. He's given us everything; Heaven, New Life, Forgiveness, Grace. He's given us all the riches the world has to offer us, right here in the U.S. To give 3% back is a mockery, a spit in the face. That's what you're doing, spitting in the face of God when you write a check for 3% of your income just so you can say you were a good Christian because you gave, and now you can check off one of your objectives on your holy christian to do list.
Those that give zero are feeders. They come just to be entertained. They come for the spiritual orgasm that makes them feel good for about 45 minutes, then they go home to live their hypocritical wretched lifestyle.
Giving less than what you can give, is defiant and radical disobedience.
So your problem, Mr. Rich, is not giving. Nor is it the name of the process by which you give your money. Your problem deals with how much to give. And you have the wrong idea of what is adequate and sacrificial and worthy in the sight of God.
So your problem, Mr. Rich, is not giving. Nor is it the name of the process by which you give your money. Your problem deals with how much to give. And you have the wrong idea of what is adequate and sacrificial and worthy in the sight of God.
If god were standing in front of Tom I am sure Tom would give endlessly. However, FBC Jax is not god. Just becouse some there went to school to learn greek dose not give authority to be god. adequate is between the person and god. moreover, where they give is also between god and the giver. However, if a person gives alot at FBC Jax he has status. this is a false gospel. The matter of giving or sacrificial is not a matter of salvation. the crooks at FBC Jax have alot to learn.
Jesus gave so we could know and serve him not FBC Jax.
Those that give zero are feeders. They come just to be entertained. They come for the spiritual orgasm that makes them feel good for about 45 minutes, then they go home to live their hypocritical wretched lifestyle.
those who give zero to FBC Jax five it all to Jesus. Those who take to stuff their wallet is a feeder of inequity. Those who thing they are going to heaven through the tithe the devil is waighting for you.
Butcher and all you other cronies get your straight jackets on because hell awaited you.
"I'll tell you what giving 3% is.
It's a mockery of God. 9.99% is still short, but would be much better"
Where do you find the 10% in the NT?
Please back up your declarations with the Word.
Did Paul collect 10% from the Macedonians to take to the Jerusalem church? Where do you see that specified in the NT?
Butcher Priest is one of the very scary fanatics. He even knows what Jesus could or couldn't care less about.
"Very little goes to the things that Jesus said you should do."
I agree. Churches can provide good things-entertainment, affirmation of your beliefs, comfort of friends who care about you, opportunities to socialize, outings for adults and teens, affirming morals for your children, a group of good people to do a project with to help the community, etc.
You meet in a building. That costs money. You want to hear a speech from a pastor every week. He sells you that service. That requires money.
All well and good. But don't pretend church is something that it's not. It can be a small but valuable part of your Christian life. But I think the main things Christians should be doing is helping the poor, visiting the sick, visiting the prison, thinking up ways to show the love of Christ. Those things require effort and money also. Don't give all your money to the church, which is actually non-essential to the Christian life. You could meet with other Christians at somebody's house.
I am very surprised at the arguments for the tithe. The Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ is the greatest hope for lost and dying world and here we have pew sitters and pastors who do not really believe in the Gospel and the work of The Holy Spirit in a believers life. By castigating believers who are unable to give or who give what the Spirit encourages them to give, but these believers are castigated as "feeders". I say that these believers and pastors are the one's who do not believe in the power and work of The Holy Spirit. They are essentially hollowing or eviscerating the power of The Gospel. This is why Christianity and the power The Gospel are shorted by pastors who insist on tithing and are vehement about it. I understand as a business one needs to make ends meet. But is a church a business? Why don't these pastors believe in the gentle urging of The Holy Spirit?
97% is probably too high. Our church is 75%, which is too high also. But not all that 75% is exclusively internal though. Our personnel is approx 48% of our budget.
Butcher priest is a typical Pharisee without the education of a Pharisee so he is not clever with his legalism and the "letter of the law". He cannot even back up his words with scripture in the NT. He cannot show us where we are told to give "10%".
He is the type of pew sitter Jon loves.
A surprising statistic ... George Barna > New Study Shows Trends in Tithing and Donating Among the most generous segments were evangelicals (24% of whom tithed)...
No church is a true "New Testament Church" unless is meets either in a cave, a home, or someone's place of business where the use is donated. (Most first century businesses were run out of a home!)
The churches of the first century met in homes, caves, or sometimes out of doors. No fancy buildings!
And no $100,000 or more pastors, either, just sharing what they had to keep everyone fed.
If the tithe were to go 90% to ministry in the form of evangelism (like preaching to the lost, not the saved!), mission efforts, prison ministry, feeding and clothing and housing the poor, etc., and only 10% to buildings and salaries for people to serve the donors, then maybe it would be supportable.
Right now, it is hard to see how many mega churches are functionally different than a country club -- pay your dues and you get to use the facilities and services, including a little baby and child care, some entertainment for the youth, and more for the adults.
"But there are distinctions between charity work, and Christ's work."
Charity is providing someone something they need but can't provide - correct? Isn't that what Jesus did for all of us? What I find very un-Christ-like is the fervent one-minded-ness about money from so many "Christians" - there's not even this much emphasis on baptism or salvation! Why is that such a main focus? Because for churches (institutional) it is the very lifeblood, though they don't admit that. Christians are to care for each other, and you don't need a church (organization) to do that - the Holy Spirit is completely capable of moving true Christians to do so. Christians caring for each other IS what the true church does - there is no need for a building, with all the attendant expenses, to even exist. In fact, everything that building does take from the givers (both money and time) is taken away from Christians directly doing for one another. Why pay a speaker to tell you what the Bible already says? You could tell others the same thing. Why pay for upkeep of a building when you could provide real necessities for someone in need directly? The modern institutional church has become nothing but a business organization which needs to fund-raise to sustain its own existence. Why do Christians feel they should shame or brow-beat others for how much they give or where? Giving is between each person and God Himself. God moves each person to give (money, time, whatever) and it's between that person and God whether he does the Spirit's bidding. Where in the Bible are there spiritual 'enforcers' making sure people are giving the way they 'ought' to give? "The love of money is the root of all evil"
D
“Read your old testament and study some commentary on why the church is referred to as the storehouse.”
No answer again. The church is not found in the Old Testament and the last time I checked the churches were not storing any grain or other produce.
When was the last time any of us were correctly taught what the tithes are:
"The Lord instituted three kinds of tithes for Israel as part of their taxation system. They area:
A tithe of the produce of the land to support the Levites who had no inheritance in Canaan.
A tithe of the produce of the land to sponsor religious festivals in Jerusalem. If the produce was too burdensome for a family to carry to Jerusalem, they could convert it into money.
A tithe of the produce of the land collected every third year for the local Levites, orphans, strangers, and widows'."
Are any of you practicing this?
Now the history of the tithe and it’s teaching in the church:
“The Origin of the Tithe and the Clergy Salary.
Cyprian (200-258) is the first Christian writer to mention the practice of financially supporting the clergy. He argued that just as the Levites were supported by the tithe, so the Christian clergy should be supported by the tithe. But this is misguided thinking. Today, the Levitical system has been abolished. We are all priests now. So if a priest demands a tithe, then all Christians should tithe to one another!.
Cyprian’s plea was exceedingly rare for his time. It was neither picked up nor echoed by the Christian populace until much later. Other than Cyprian, no Christian writer before Constantine ever used Old Testament references to advocate tithing.” It was not until the fourth century, 300 years after Christ, that some Christian leaders began to advocate tithing as a Christian practice to support the clergy. But it did not become widespread among Christians until the eighth century! According to one scholar, “For the first seven hundred years they [tithes] are hardly ever mentioned.”
Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating exercise. Tithing evolved from the State to the church. Giving a tenth of one’s produce was the customary rent-charge for lands that were leased in Western Europe. As the church increased its ownership of land across Europe, the 10% rent-charge was given to the church. This gave the 10% rent-charge a new meaning. It came to be identified with the Levitical tithe! Consequently, the Christian tithe as an institution was based on a fusion of Old Testament practice and pagan institution.
By the eighth century, the tithe became required by law in many areas of Western Europe. By the end of the tenth century, the distinction of the tithe as a rent-charge and a moral requirement supported by the Old Testament had faded. The tithe became mandatory throughout Christian Europe.
To put it another way, before the eighth century the tithe was practiced as a voluntary offering. But by the end of the tenth century, it had devolved into a legal requirement to fund the State church—demanded by the clergy and enforced by the secular authorities!”
When we stands before God and give an account of our lives, do YOU think He will be fine with YOU blaming Mega Pastors for YOUR lack of obedience?
Do YOU think that it is okay to give God leftovers?
Should we care about the poor and missions?
YOU don't because YOU don't support them with your money.
Truth hurts sometimes....it is easy to come on here and nail Mega Pastors to the Cross.
It's tough when the tables are turned.
Don't get bitter Brother Dog, get right with God and stop being stingy!
We are praying for YOUR heart, because where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
That anger you have is not good for YOUR health.
Try some Prune Juice, it will help cleanse YOU of some of YOUR problems.
“The widow didn't give 1 mite, she gave them all. She didn't look at her possessions and say, gee, I'm poor, I need to hang on to as much as I can or else I won't make it. NO. She gave it all.”
Yes, yes she did but you miss the bigger point. Under Israel’s tithing system she was not suppose to give anything at all! By accepting her mite, the Priests violated their own law and Jesus revealed their as corruption and greed. Remind you of anyone?
Instead of taking her money, they should have been giving her money so she could meet her needs. (See the third tithe listed above.) I miss Lydia.
Turn your eyes --
Get off the focus on MONEY to the CHURCH (better read PASTOR AND STAFF SALARIES AND PERKS), and get focused on stewardship of everything including time, capabilities, and compassion.
And do go back to the OT and study what the tithe was a tithe of -- produce to feed a Levitical priesthood that could not own property.
If we went back to the pastor living in some old house next to the church, instead of a McMansion, and living off of poundings by the congregation, other than a pittance salary, then the pulpit advocacy of tithing might not sound like GREED, which is what it is today.
Butcher I agree with you on one point and that is about entertainment. Thats why a lot of us have left the buildings that entertain to do our own Bible study. Places of amusement. Thanks for the admission.
It is really hard for you people to justify your greed...isn't it?
It is really sad while you are driving nice cars and living in fine homes and then YOU turn around and put down Mega Pastors for their greed and that is YOUR excuse for being greedy.
Wow...are YOU saved?
Do Christians really talk like this?
Because YOU sound a lot like Christopher Hitchens.
By choice and what we perceived to be God's call, my wife and I moved from a 4 BR, 3 bath, 2 car attached garage house in a nice suburb to an inner city neighborhood near the inner city church to which we moved our membership the day after we moved our home. We live in an old house that has structural issues we are fixing with our own hands. We gave 15% of an inheritance and a payout from an insurance settlement to the church, because it was making the buildings accessible to the handicapped. BTW much of the building is 70+ years old.
We help neighbors who are disabled and elderly, do meals on wheels, help them prep their tax returns and deal with the appraisal district, represent some in municipal court, take people who do not have transportation to the doctor.
At present, we give 1/3 of our work time representing people who can not afford an attorney, and, as a result do not have money above our necessary bills to donate. We give of ourselves, not our money, except when we buy extra groceries to be able to feed people who come to the door.
Not tithing is not necessarily the result of greed. It can be the result of Christian conviction that God expects good stewardship of all we are and have, and that sometimes that means supporting a church that also is being a good steward of its resources, including its people.
So, I have a legitimate platform on which to stand and say to any pastor taking more than $100,000 from the church that he or she is a HYPOCRIT for preaching tithing, when it should be stewardship, because he or she is NOT being a good steward of the resources providing through and to the church.
And, quite frankly, tithing as it is preached today is a HERESY.
I'd say whatever money you are giving: think about what is done with your money. If what is done with your money warms your heart, then keep giving it.
"If You want to hate on those that do Tithe, keep your opinion to yourself."
Slow to Think always cracks me up.
Here's another piece of advice that he dispences but doesn't follow himself.
"Realize there are far more important things in the Scritpures than tithing."
You mean like the parts that tell us not to ignore false teachings?
Lots of people on this thread complaining about you discussing tithing.
But that is the sign that you need to discuss it even more.
Not until they stop complaining will it be clear that understand the concept of NT free will giving.
"As you mentioned that you yourself did learn something from a liberal."
He didn't say they were liberal. He said they were labeled as liberals.
"You don't have to give 10%, just as long as you give something."
You don't have to give 25% like they did in the Old Testament as long as you give 10%.
"If you believe in a "tithe", Jon, Perhaps you see yourself as a sort of Levite Priest. If so, then you are not allowed to own property, either. Hope you are carrying that part of the OC through, too. :o)"
Jon, you are developing quite a resume. First a King and Prophet - so that you can take advantage of your misinterpretation of "Touch Not Mine Anointed" and now a Levite priest so that you can grab 10% from the flock for your paycheck.
Hi, Turn, how is your day going? I am not sure what your comments have to do with tithing vs. God cheerful willing giving. One is man directed the other is directed by Godtrough faith. None of us here has ever said you are not free to tithe. None of us here has ever said not to give liberally. I think we are all in agreement that we are to give. When I stand before God I will plead the blood and the cross, I have nothing else. But as long as I am here I will stand for truth, even when it is unpopular.
RC, you are an excellent example for all of us. Thank you for all you do and may God bless you more and more.
Jon Estes,
When, where, and why in the Bible were two tithes from the OT dropped so that we only pay one today?
You don't believe that the three titles mentioned in Deuteronomy and Leviticus were just historical narrative do you?
And by the way, you never answered my questions about "Touch Not Mine Anointed."
So, again I ask, of the four modern day prophets that you mentioned, where is their list of fulfilled prophecy that was a part of your definition of a prophet?
How do kings fit into your interpretation?
How does "touch not" equate to "criticize not?"
And since, in context, God was warning the pagan nations not to kill Israel's king and prophets, why wouldn't that be a one time proclamation?
Where is the precedent for expanding the warning and extending it to the present day?
Tithing is a "False Gospel"?
What???
Giving money to God is wrong?
People, this is bizarre?
So it is okay to spend your money on yourself, your family, and your friends....but to give your money to God is a "False Gospel"????
Dog, have you been to the Doctor lately?
You don't have enough oxygen getting to your brain.
My Church does not "make me give".
I freely give!!!!
Just like you freely choose to be greedy and not give anything to the work of God or not to give to missions or not to give to those who are hungry. If you want to be selfish, that's your right.
I am not mad that you don't give to God.
I just think it is very sad....
Is tithing a sin?
Seems so from this cyber church.
Is obesity a sin?
Ditto.
Is believing the bible OT and NT relevant and applicable to our day?
Not at this cyber church.
I wonder if those here who believe to tithe as wrong, believe gluttony is synonymous with obesity, believe that it is wrong to touch God's anointed (which is all of us) will allow me to sit by them in heaven? Either side, right or left is OK, just to be able to sit by you would make heaven worth while.
New BBC Forum, you said
"(FWIW, I don't believe there's such a thing as an "addiction" to porn. One can repeatedly yield to what is for some a very strong temptation, but unlike drugs or alcohol, one is not going to go into physical withdrawal if he doesn't view porn.)"
That's just not accurate. Numerous studies, both secular and from within the church, have discovered that those truly addicted to porn do have physical symptons that are similiar to other addictions.
"Is tithing a sin?
Seems so from this cyber church."
Note how Jon does not deal with context. He simply twists it around to say that many believe tithing is a sin.
But you know...is it a sin to TEACH the tithe to people when you know it is NOT for the NC? That is an interesting question because it involves truth for today and twisting scripture to fit a personal need.
Jon makes his living from teaching a tithe. He does not trust God like McArthur does. McArthur does NOT teach a tithe but what is taught in the NC: "giving". No percentages mentioned. Yet, McArthur makes quite a nice living.
Jon, what little faith you have. Instead you teach folks they are under an Isreal "tax" system in the NC.
Again, are you a Levite Priest, then?
"Is tithing a sin?"
Straw man argument.
"Seems so from this cyber church."
By now, even a middle-aged person should know the difference in a blog and a cyber-church Jon.
Nothing makes a person look more out of touch than calling a piece of well-established technology by the wrong name.
Sheesh.
"Is obesity a sin?"
Gluttony is a sin.
Gluttony causes obesity.
There are exceptions to every rule Jon. That does not excuse unbiblical behavior.
You are not the exception.
"Is believing the bible OT and NT relevant and applicable to our day?"
This is an over-simplified view of biblical interpretation.
You obviously don't believe that a child should be stoned for disobedience, yet there it is in black and white in the OT.
So you are guilty of what you are accusing others according to your own over-simplified definition.
Get the log out of your own eye before you try to remove the speck from others.
I wonder if those here who believe to tithe as wrong, believe gluttony is synonymous with obesity, believe that it is wrong to touch God's anointed (which is all of us) will allow me to sit by them in heaven? Either side, right or left is OK, just to be able to sit by you would make heaven worth while.
March 28, 2011 2:58 PM
Jon, you are SOOOOO deceptive. For those who want to know why I said that, go read the "married to pastor" thread for what Jon was saying there which is not what he is saying on this thread. surprise!
He has been claiming for years that certain people like pastors (and now he added prophets) have special anointing that others do not have and they fall under the "touch not thine anointed" taught in the OT about Saul the king. (He originally said this way back around 2007 about Steve Gaines on the BBCopenforum blog)
Then he named some modern day prophets for us on the married to pastors thread.
But he refused to define "prophet" for us so we know how he is using it...as in OT prophet?
NOW, he is saying all believers have anointing which WE HAVE BEEN TELLING HIM FOR YEARS NOW. (It is in 1 John)
Methinks Jon is a bit like Caner. He must think some people forget what he said before. Now, he is changing his tune when he gets nailed.
Jon is the poster boy for the typical SBC pastor out there.
Please test every word from their mouths. This is how they make thier living, remember that.
"Is believing the bible OT and NT relevant and applicable to our day?"
This is an over-simplified view of biblical interpretation.
You obviously don't believe that a child should be stoned for disobedience, yet there it is in black and white in the OT.
So you are guilty of what you are accusing others according to your own over-simplified definition.
Get the log out of your own eye before you try to remove the speck from others.
March 28, 2011 3:32 PM
Great points. Jon likes the OT parts that benefit him. Yet, I bet he owns property of some kind.
"I wonder if those here who believe to tithe as wrong, believe gluttony is synonymous with obesity, believe that it is wrong to touch God's anointed (which is all of us) will allow me to sit by them in heaven? Either side, right or left is OK, just to be able to sit by you would make heaven worth while."
This reminds me of the worst tangled fishing line I ever saw as a kid. Not sure where to start. It's such a mess of bad thinking.
Instead of wasting hours trying to untangle this huge mess, perhaps we should turn it around and ask some questions instead.
How many here can show why the three tithes in Deuteronomy and Leviticus are not still in effect for today?
I mean wouldn't it make more sense that we pay all 3 or none and not just one?
When and where were the other two tithes done away with?
Or were those just historical narrative?
Gluttony causes obesity 99.99999999999999% of the time. How much closer a percentage do you need for it to be called synonymous?
According to your definition of "touch not God's anointed" (today's version), you are guilty of doing what you preach against.
Since you have defined touching as criticizing and have criticized people on this blog, how are you not guilty of touching God's anointed?
By the way, why did you spend so much time listing modern day prophets (and not being able to authenticate them) if everyone is anointed and not to be touched?
Under that interpretation, is Brunson guilty of touching God's anointed by serving Dog and his wife trespass papers?
I picture you Jon (as David Letterman once said) with really bad seats in heaven.
"This reminds me of the worst tangled fishing line I ever saw as a kid. Not sure where to start. It's such a mess of bad thinking."
Yep, Jon insults and uses really bad exegesis for several threads which has been proved by quite a few YET now he resorts to his "whiny pious preacher" act.
RC
Thank you for your sacrifice. I think a few people who comment on this blog should shut their mouths and think about what you said. I wish I was as half as sacrificial as you are. You remind me of David Platt and his book Radical. May we all be more like that!
Lots of Dees writing into this blog.
Continuing:
“The Root of All Evil.
If a believer wishes to tithe out of personal decision or conviction, that is fine. Tithing becomes a problem when it is represented as God’s command, binding upon every believer.
Mandatory tithing equals oppression to the poor. Not a few poor Christians have been thrown headlong into further poverty because they have been told that if they do not tithe, they are robbing God. When tithing is taught as God’s command, Christians who can barely make ends meet are guilted into deeper poverty. In this way, tithing evacuates the gospel from being “good news to the poor.” Rather than good news, it becomes a heavy burden. Instead of liberty, it becomes oppression. We are so apt to forget that the original tithe that God established for Israel was to benefit the poor, not hurt them!
Conversely, modern tithing is good news to the rich. To a high-earner, 10% is but a paltry sum. Tithing, therefore, appeases the consciences of the rich, while it has no significant impact on their lifestyles. Not a few wealthy Christians are deluded into thinking they are “obeying God” because they throw a measly 10% of their income into the offering plate.
But God has a very different view of giving. Recall the parable of the widow’s mite: “Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. ..I tell you the truth, ‘ He said, ..this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”
Sadly, tithing is often viewed as a litmus test for discipleship. If you are a good Christian, you will tithe (so it is thought). But this is a bogus application. Tithing is no sign of Christian devotion. If it were, all first-century Christians would be condemned as being un-devoted!
The lingering root behind the sustained push for tithing in the modern church is the clergy salary. Not a few pastors feel that they must preach tithing to remind their congregation of its obligation to support them and their programs. And they will use the promise of financial blessing or the fear of a financial curse to ensure that the tithes keep rolling in.
In this way, modern tithing is the equivalent of a Christian lottery. Pay the tithe, and God will give you more money in return. Refuse to tithe, and God will punish you. Such thoughts rip at the heart of the good news of the gospel.”
Wow this is sad. Christians fighting over something as trivial as tithing. Praise Allah
So...What's the problem Dog?
Are you depressed?
Are you struggling emotionally?
Usually when a person finds fault with everything, it is because they are not happy with themselves.
If a person has a problem with people sunbathing at the beach...
SOLUTION: DON'T GO TO THE BEACH!!
If a person does not like a Church that teaches Tithing...
SOLUTION: FIND ANOTHER CHURCH
If such person comes to our Church and raises cain about things they do not like at FBC Jax.....
WE WILL GIVE YOU A CHRISTIAN BOOT!
AND THAT IS BIBLE!!!
STS - I believe you are a troll of the worst kind - one that actually doesn't believe what you are saying, but are taking a counter position to rile people up.
This statement has me convinced that you are an out of towner just trying to raise a ruckus:
"If such person comes to our Church and raises cain about things they do not like at FBC Jax.....
WE WILL GIVE YOU A CHRISTIAN BOOT!
AND THAT IS BIBLE!!!"
----------
You aren't a FBC Jax person, I know that, you are out of town. So why are you saying this? To get people riled up?
I won't bite, my friend. Please stop this playing games.
If you want to defend your position please do so, but no more of the side issues about whether I'm depressed, etc. That is childish. If you continue I'll delete your posts.
"I'll tell you what giving 3% is.
It's a mockery of God. 9.99% is still short, but would be much better."
I disagree with the a lot of WD's posts and with the tone in which he posts it. However, the one things I believe he is consistently right on is the fact that the 10% tithe is not a requirement. Look at the New Testament teachings on tithing. 10% is not there. The New Testament encouragement is to give out the abundance of blessing that God gives you. It is giving to the best of your ability which is going to be different for each person. Ultimately, giving is tied back to the heart. You'll give according to your heart. Also, let's not limit giving to money. God expects us to give in every way we can give. This includes time, talents, energy, etc... 10% is not part of the New Covenant.
Watchdog you are right and thats why there are those that do not like you putting the spotlight on them. As for tithing isn't it odd that the same people that call for 10% overlook the 10% of cattle, goats, sheep that are to be given to the church. Where would say 1000 sheep, goats, and cattle be stalled at some of these churches. Also, you are to give 10% of your land. What part of the land..near the river, closer to town, or alongside the main road. When you practice tithing you can't go half way you have to go 100% sort of like baptizing.
you guys who believe a 'tithe' for the new Covenant.......what do you do with Barnabas?
I've been watching this saga for about a year, starting with the state attorneys' office "inadvertently destroying" evidence in what should have been and was a major civil rights lawsuit. I listen to Mac Brunson pretty regularly and he's an amazing preacher. I've learned a lot about the Bible. But about 40% of the message is about what they are not rather than what they are; scorn & shallow browbeating about tithing. Even as SBC admits to "crisis" and shrinking membership. Perhaps they should demand 1040s as prerequisite to walking the aisle? Isn't that a sin? I appreciate this blog.
What needs to be clarified is which tithe are people referring to? As you pointed out, Malachi is always quoted and he is referring to the tithing laws of the mosaic covenant.
My Bible tells me we are no longer under the law. So why don't the tithing proponents also condemn eating pork and encourage the stoning of rebellious children?
How do they think they can pick and choose from the torah? Paul is very clear, you can't. It's an all or nothing proposition.
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