"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Thursday, March 24, 2011

BREAKING NEWS: Paige Patterson Crosses One Off the Ol' "Bucket List", and Does Striptease Act in Chapel

Yes, Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (SWBTS) does a striptease act in chapel on 3/23/11, complete with music accompaniment and cat calls, one I'm sure the Mrs. has seen many times before. Hilarious.


106 comments:

New BBC Open Forum said...

I will never eat bacon and eggs again. Ever.

Anonymous said...

My gosh, I know I'm stating the obvious, but the gentleman is obese.

Bene D

Anonymous said...

High living will do that to most people.

Anonymous said...

I don't get it.

Adam said...

I'm not interested in defending or critiquing ... (hold on, just burped and my eggs and bacon came back up) ... Patterson's choice methods of persuasion.

However, since someone has asked what is happening with the eggs and bacon, I am making an educated guess, based on his comment that porn is silly and his food illustration is not original, that he is employing C.S. Lewis' argument from his chapter on "Sexual Morality" in his book, Mere Christianity (pp. 94-103).

Lewis comments on how warped our minds must be to put up with strip-tease when we would find such antics to be a sign of cultural distress and trauma if it were anything other than naked men or women on stage. He uses the illustration of mutton and bacon being uncovered on stage to make his point.

I could be entirely wrong, but if you read C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, and the chapter on Sexual Morality, what Patterson is doing will at least make some sense. Again, I'm not defending or critiquing so much as hoping to clarify what he is up to.

Anonymous said...

Blogger above says: "Gentleman is obese". Half of that comment is true...he is obese.

Where are the Godly preachers?
Answer: In heaven already!


Relating to churches:
Face it folks...true churches are over, for the most part!!!! Ever ask yourself, "Are any people truly getting SAVED any longer in these temples of entertainment?"

Anonymous said...

You guys missed his Tom Sawyer anecdote at the 2008 SBC convention during his seminary report.

Of course, their reports are always self serving. Mohler simply preached AT everyone.

And we wonder about accountability. We have none because we are too buys worshipping our leaders to make them accountable.

The only one who was NOT self serving was Jeff Iorg from Golden Gate. Just a tip: When Patterson had his 200,000 portrait painted for SWBTS, Iorg took a picture of himself and spent 600 bucks having it enlarged for their seminary walls.

Seems the Golden Gate guy has more respect for our donations than Patterson does.

Josh from FL said...

....So....I think that....(pause)... If this is the way.... (more pause)....

Yeah, I got nothing.

Although I will mention my word verify was "promo". I think that's pretty cool.

Anonymous said...

Like husband like wife. Living high on the hog doth maketh a hog.

Dee said...

Paige Patterson demonstrates why Christians are considered hypocrites. This video, unbeknownst to PP, showed his utter lack of understanding of his own sin issue which is gluttony. The location of his fat is in an area which puts him at high risk for cardiac troubles. I intend to post this on my blog next week as a warning.He should hang his head in embarrassment and maybe stop pointing fingers at other people.

The Butcher Priest said...

That was not a strip tease. Strip teases are much more explicit, with more clothes coming off than an outer jacket.

I think what was more disturbing is the obvious state of health Mr. Patterson has allowed himself to fall into. A little bit of exercise wouldn't do him any harm...

Anonymous said...

"This video, unbeknownst to PP, showed his utter lack of understanding of his own sin issue which is gluttony"


Don't forget greed. I think greed is real issue.

Anonymous said...

Living high on the hog doth maketh a hog....ROFL
Im sorry I can't even watch that video due to the proximity of lunch and the fear of losing it.

Anonymous said...

ok i watched it and i hope he never does dancing with the stars.

Lynn said...

I think some of these big powerful preachers find sexual "sins" much more interesting than greed.

I actually find it kind of silly and absurd for grown men to sit and listen to another grown man rail against pornography. What that probably does is get their imaginations going or maybe make them more obsessed about the exciting forbidden fruit.

Preaching on greed might hit too close to home, and preaching on kindness would be quite boring in comparison to pornography, gays, etc.

Slow to speak said...

That is a great message.

We need more preaching like this.

I am so thankful that we have men like this leading our seminaries.

You wouldn't ever see Joel Osteen preaching against sin with such fervor as Dr. Patterson.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of "Bucket List".

Dorothy Patterson is not compared to Hyacinth "Bucket" for nothing.

Ever seen her bio on her website? Midnight suppers with Yassar Arafat....

Ever seen their Christmas video of Pecan Manor?

Or how about the adult size tombstone for their dog?

Or the amount spent to "remodel" and furnish Pecan Manor?

Or the amount SEBTS was billed from the taxidermy to stuff Patterson's big game from Africa for his office and Pecan Manor?

They are SBC royalty

Anonymous said...

You wouldn't ever see Joel Osteen preaching against sin with such fervor as Dr. Patterson.

March 24, 2011 1:32 PM

Exactly! Patterson is a Pharisee who decides what is sin for others. Osteen does not recognize there is any sin.

Anonymous said...

Or the fact that Patterson tried to get Ben Cole to go through all Jerry Rankins sermons to find reasons to fire him. (Rankin is former President of the IMB)

Anonymous said...

The Patterson's have a long list of ethics problems. They put his brother in law, Russ Kaemmerling in as a Trustee and he refused to step down when he was investigated for fraud. He was finally convicted and served time. But he refused to step down while being investigated even though he knew he was guilty.... and did not have to: He was protected by Patterson and his cronies.

Yes, anon, Patterson's are SBC royalty and have had quite a nice jet setting life working for the SBC.

Your tithe dollars at work.

Lynn said...

Actually, maybe I should ask: Since most on here are men, I think, have you found that it helps you to be preached at about pornography?

FLUFFY, not FAT said...

"My gosh, I know I'm stating the obvious, but the gentleman is obese."

Just like WD. I don't see anyone being critical of his gluttony and rotund stature.

"High living will do that to most people."

Is that what happened to WD, high living?

"showed his utter lack of understanding of his own sin issue which is gluttony. The location of his fat is in an area which puts him at high risk for cardiac troubles."

Guess WD better get in shape and not blow his $50 K windfall from the taxpayers of Jacksonville on more fattening foods and hire a personal trainer to get back down to his newlywed weight.

"I think what was more disturbing is the obvious state of health Mr. Patterson has allowed himself to fall into. A little bit of exercise wouldn't do him any harm..."

The same can be said of WD based on the last images he let us mere mortals see in the public arena.

Thy Peace said...

The older one gets, their metabolism slows down. Even if they are eating the same calories as before, weight builds up.

Anonymous said...

I saw Dog on the news clip and did not think he looked fat.

I have a bigger problem with Patterson's greed than I do his gluttony.

Besides, Tom is not a paid employee of the SBC living high off the hog on donor money. Did the SBC pay for his new china? His dog's tombstone? Taxidermy bills for his wild game hunts in Africa.

Patterson has played the SBC pew sitters for fools for 30 years. Even Criswell tried to get rid of him using his deacons.

The famous "airport" meeting in Joel Gregory's book with all the SBC greats (Ed Young, Adrian Rogers, Charles Stanely, etc) was ALL about "what to do about Patterson".

Patterson has been one step ahead of the firing ax for years. He is given a pass because he knows where all the bodies are buried from the CR. Patterson was the front guy for the CR. And the complaint by Criswell college was that he spent more time on CR politics than running the college as president. He was gone all the time yet being paid.

Oh, and he also had to leave SEBTS. But then, they had to find a place for him...at SWBTS.

What is the first things he does? Fire Klouda for being a women teaching Hebrew. Then he spends a ton of money on the "Housewife" degree even putting kitchens in so women can learn to be good housewives.

Patterson is an embarassment. He should have been fired long ago.

Did you all know another brother in law of his is president of New Orleans Baptist seminary?

Who were the protege's of Patterson? Guys like Brunson and Gaines. They are all so familiar in behavior and ethics.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Hey, that's not fair. I've really trimmed down lately. Take a look.

:)

Anonymous said...

"Relating to churches:
Face it folks...true churches are over, for the most part!!!! Ever ask yourself, "Are any people truly getting SAVED any longer in these temples of entertainment?"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
My thoughts exactly - he actually believes his act on gluttony with his own belly & chin fat rolling was funny as I gather likewise did his people in the pews who you could hear laughing.

What a shame to have men like him representing todays churches - the SBC has become a joke & as the above states "true churches are over" because of the likes of Paige Patterson.

Anonymous said...

"Dorothy Patterson is not compared to Hyacinth "Bucket" for nothing."

HELARIOUS!! And so true.

OMG! My word verification is: fatingl

Anonymous said...

His and his wife's lifestyle and behavior stink to high hell.

FLUFFY, not FAT said...

"Hey, that's not fair. I've really trimmed down lately."

I see you are coloring your hair also.

Anonymous said...

FIRST OF ALL Dog is NOT fat! And whomever this troll is probably hasn't seen the inside of a gym himself since middle school.

Anonymous said...

Hey Tom, you can be fat and righteous according to SBC doctrine but don't even think about a glass of wine or you won't be saved.

If one glass leads to drunkeness then what about one pot luck supper or after church buffet leading to gluttony?

turnureyesonJC said...

Paige Patterson is a true man of God.

This video was taken out of context and is being used to make a fool out of him.

I don't think that there is a lot of humor in this situation at all.

Maybe he is a little overweight, but what does that have to do with preaching against pornography?

His whole point was the porno will clog your spiritual arteries just like Porn will clog your heart.

you got a problem with that?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I truly found the little dance funny. And I did listen to his sermon, and it was a good one. He actually was preaching a sermon on adultery from the 10 commandments, and I thought it was excellent.

He did several illustrations in the sermon that I thought were effective and made good points.

I thought the striptease dance was just plain funny. I didn't think it hypocritical that he is addressing pornography while fat. Because he is very fat, doesn't mean that he shouldn't preach on the 10 commandments.

I have to say, I can't imagine any other preacher doing that dance. In fact, if of the emergents like Perry Noble or Mark Driscoll tried this, and played the risque music and pretending to do a striptease, they would be rounding criticized. I'm not criticizing Patterson, and not trying to take it out of context.

Anonymous said...

"Paige Patterson is a true man of God."

Right. With all those bodies he threw under the bus for 30 years including Klouda.

BTW: Jesus said lust is the same as committing adultery. He raised the bar from the Law which simply said do not commit adultery to the spirit of the law which is: lust is sin.

New BBC Open Forum said...

This video was taken out of context and is being used to make a fool out of him.

Um... I think he made a fool out of himself on his own. He needs no help.

I don't think that there is a lot of humor in this situation at all.

I agree. I didn't find it funny at all. Silly, ridiculous, embarrassing, and just plain gross, but not funny.

Maybe he is a little overweight, but what does that have to do with preaching against pornography?

Nothing to do with pornography. Or women not staying in their place (at home) or women teaching men or homosexuality or really anything that Patterson commonly rails against. Except you never hear about him preaching a sermon on gluttony. I wonder why that is?

New BBC Open Forum said...

STS,

You're funny, but you need some new material. Seriously. So do your alter egos. You all have become boring.

Skinny little Joel Osteen could bench press Paige Patterson.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Maybe this is where Patterson got the idea.

Anonymous said...

Well here's your answer to Paige's gluttony problem:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2011/03

"Uh-oh. All those pizzas luring young adults to church activities may have unintended consequences. The devil may be in the pepperoni: Folks who stick with church for years often wind up fatter than their unchurched peers."

"Baptists tended to be the heaviest"

".....overeating was the indulgence pastors overlook -- unlike smoking, drinking and playing around.... .most evangelicals oppose government anti-obesity efforts."

Anonymous said...

I didn't express my surprise at Patterson's obesity to attack - I'm in Canada and while I have a fair grasp of SBC history, I've honestly never seen Patterson on video.

I was shocked. Come on - he's more obese than John Hagee - and the only thing that comes to mind is what is wrong with Texas?
The man is a cliche to my eyes and ears. Sue me.

So Anon - lay off attacking Tom already and attack a shocked Canuck.

I don't care what Patterson has to preach about the 10 commandments, or if the clip is in context - he's grossly obese.

BD

Jon L. Estes said...

'Except you never hear about him preaching a sermon on gluttony.'

I have. He kept it in context also. Gluttony has more to do with loose living, laziness than with overeating.

Please note the ignorance of medical conditions and scripture you show when tying all heavy people to gluttony.

Dr. Patterson, as long as I have known him, has always been a large man.

Then again, some accused Jesus of being a glutton. I am not comparing Dr. Patterson to Jesus but demonstrating the ignorance of some who those who use easy labels.

Jon L. Estes said...

Tom -

I think you demonstrated that you saw the humor in the video clip but it would be hard to deny that some here have taken it and ran with it to where it should not go.

You only drove the get away car.

;-)

Anonymous said...

think you demonstrated that you saw the humor in the video clip but it would be hard to deny that some here have taken it and ran with it to where it should not go.

You only drove the get away car.

;-)

March 25, 2011 7:51 AM

In other words, you are in sin for "touching God's anointed".

After all, Jon is the authority on where things can go. He is paid to say such things and should be obeyed.

Patterson has been a joke for years. It just amazes me that people actually listen to him.

NYTN said...

What I find disturbing is that Dr. Paige Patterson -- an educator who is responsible for the training and development of future pastor and teachers -- doesn't seem to be able to employ coherent and sound instructional methods.

The example he used was silly, distracting, and not particularly relevant to an overall learning objective (or at least not a biblical one). It was more showmanship than anything.

Again, we're talking about the president of a major theological seminary, with about 3 or 4 degrees.

I just don't get it...

Jon L. Estes said...

"I just don't get it..."

I think it would be safe to say that this active illustration is not outside of Dr. Patterson's way of getting a point driven home.

I doubt anyone in attendance was offended as they have gotten to know the man and his personal charm. I may be wrong.

What he did, from what was shown here was nothing more than a leader making a point in an very creative way.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

NYTN: PP here is not in a classroom where there would be course objectives, he is preaching a chapel sermon.

The dance and the coat thing are silly, and did not serve to make his point about pornography being ridiculous...it served to make the point how ridiculous it is for a preacher to do a parody striptease to striptease music and a prance over to a photograph, especially when said preacher has a garbage bag on his gut.

His point about the eggs and bacon was a valid sermon illustration in my mind, and not connected in anyway to his little dance, so I don't see why he did the dance.

His point on the picture of the bacon and eggs was to show the absurdity of being infatuated with images of things we like, rather than the real thing.

Anonymous said...

What I find disturbing is that so many haven't figured out that P.P. is full of malarkey.

Anonymous said...

"I have. He kept it in context also."

You should learn a lesson from him Jon and preach a sermon on "Touch Not Mine Anointed" in context.

In context, God was warning the pagan nations not to kill his anointed king and profits.

It has nothing to do with criticizing modern day preachers.

Since you are praising PP for preaching in context it must be a good thing and an example you would want to follow.

Anonymous said...

"Gluttony has more to do with loose living, laziness than with overeating."

Exactly. How could gluttony possibly lead to being overweight?

Gluttony (definition):
excessive eating and drinking

The lengths that Estes will go to defend a pastor is hilarious.

Anonymous said...

"I think it would be safe to say that this active illustration is not outside of Dr. Patterson's way of getting a point driven home."

Is that supposed to be a compliment or an insult? It's hard to tell.

Anonymous said...

"I doubt anyone in attendance was offended"

How could you possibly know that?

Anonymous said...

"What he did, from what was shown here was nothing more than a leader making a point in an very creative way."

Creative - silly and sickening

Would Jesus have made his point this way? I doubt it.

Dee said...

Jon Estes

I will assume that you do not have medical training. PP is NOT just a large man and you cannot use "medical" problems to cover up his weight problem. If there was such a thing as a medical problem, you would see fat people rolling out areas where there is devastating hunger. You do not.

PPP is fat. He used a picture of bacon and eggs which was punctuated by his gut. But, so long as he doesn't take a drink of wine, he is a "good" Baptist.Funny thing about that-a glass of red wine is good for you as it is stated in Scripture. Gluttony, which leads to obesity is condemned in the Scripture. Talk about flipping things on the head.

So people such as PP allow for the "nice" sin of obesity because they do not have the willpower to do anything about it.

This sort of thinking is naive and leads to all sorts of excuses for being overweight. It will shorten his life.

As for me, I am 10 pounds overweight and I am trying to get those pounds off. But, in my heart, I know that I cheat and eat what I shouldn't and do not exercise enough. Let's call it what it is. Baptist obesity is an overlooked sin.

Anonymous said...

Hey Jon,

Speaking of driving a get-away car, I see that you have run away from our discussion of your interpretation of "Touch Not Mine Anointed" again and come to this thread and started another "dialog."

You can run but you can't hide.

Here is my question again:
1 - Now that you have named four men that you believe to be prophets, please verify their titles by listing their fulfilled prophecies. Remember that foretelling future events was included in your definition of a prophet.

Jon L. Estes said...

"So people such as PP allow for the "nice" sin of obesity because they do not have the willpower to do anything about it.'

Sin of obesity?

'Baptist obesity is an overlooked sin."

Obesity is a sin?

What about those who, like me, carry some extra weight because of a disability due to an accident which destroyed both knees some years ago?

I seldom eat sweets, I don't like butter, I don't snack all that often and seldom eat after 7:00. I just can't walk far without my knees giving out.

My heart is strong, there is no diabetes and I can live without soft drinks. I do drink coffee, maybe 4 cups a week.

People can say I am obese, am I living in sin?

Dee said...

Jon

I do not know you or your situation. The bottom line is this. There are very few people who are obese due to other reasons besides overeating and lack of exercise. I happen to know about knee problems having survived a knee replacement. One can do water aerobics and other exercises. You can consult a PT at the advice of your physician.

Calories in must be less than calories out to lose weight. There are many nutritional programs to help those who are disabled due to various handicaps.

Secondly PP gets around. He is a "big game " hunter. He apparently can exercise by at least toting a gun and walking around reserves and airports.

I am planning on writing about this video next week. I believe it gives an insight into "good" sins and "bad" sins, Baptist style.

Anonymous said...

"Obesity is a sin?"

This gets complicated so pay close attention.

Gluttony is a sin.

Proverbs 23: 20
"Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty."

You will notice that gluttony is defined here as overeating.

Dictionary.com defines gluttony:
excessive eating and drinking

Notice that this definition mirrors the one found in Proverbs 20.

Conclusion:
Obesity is a sin.

Stop me when the logic breaks down.

Anonymous said...

Jon I noticed that you didn't mention anything about exercising. How often do you exercise? There are lots of exercises you can do that don't involve the knees.

Even if you don't exercise, you can still loose weight by eating less.

I lost 15 lbs recently with no exercise. Just ate less.

Anonymous said...

"People can say I am obese."

It doesn't matter what people say. It only matters what the scale says.

"Am I living in sin?"

This reminds me of the arguments of the gay community. God made me this way so how dare you judge me.

I would point you to the Bible just like I would them. Your argument is with the Bible not with me.

Jon L. Estes said...

""Obesity is a sin?"

This gets complicated so pay close attention."


STOP NOW!

BTW - I have no problem saying gluttony is a sin. I do have a problem saying obesity is a sin.

Anonymous said...

Jon,

You never answered my questions about your interpretation of "Touch Not Min Anointed."

Here is the first one again:
1 - Now that you have named four men that you believe to be prophets, please verify their titles by listing their fulfilled prophecies. Remember that foretelling future events was included in your definition of a prophet.

Anonymous said...

"STOP NOW!"

The problem is Jon that you stopped before you addressed the bad logic in your thinking.

You are equivocating on the word "glutton."

The dictionary defines the word as excessive eating and drinking.

And so does the Bible.

Proverbs 23: 20
"Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty."

How would you interpret the word "drunkard" in this passage?

It it a person who gets drunk by drinking alcohol or does it have more to do with loose living, laziness than with drinking?

If you define drunkard as a person who drinks too much alcohol, then to remain consistent you can't define glutton in the way you have suggested.

I see a pattern forming here. When it benefits you personally (criticism, being over-weight, etc), your hermeneutics get sloppy.

Anonymous said...

"I do have a problem saying obesity is a sin."

And how does one become obese?

Excessive eating and drinking.

Which is the definition of gluttony.

Jon L. Estes said...

""STOP NOW!"

The problem is Jon that you stopped before you addressed the bad logic in your thinking."

Actually, No I didn't. I stopped you according to your instruction.

"You are equivocating on the word "glutton."'

Wrong again. It's getting habitual. ;-)

"The dictionary defines the word as excessive eating and drinking."

The dictionary is not my source for understanding the word.

"And so does the Bible.

Proverbs 23: 20
"Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty."

zalal - a primitive root [compare Hebrew 2107 (zuwl)]; to shake (as in the wind), i.e. to quake; figurative to be loose morally, worthless or prodigal :- blow down, glutton, riotous (eater), vile.

So a glutton is an eater of the flesh and will come to poverty? I guess that leaves me out. Thanks for letting me know I am not cannibalistic nor in poverty. Guess i can't be a glutton.

"How would you interpret the word "drunkard" in this passage?

It it a person who gets drunk by drinking alcohol or does it have more to do with loose living, laziness than with drinking?

If you define drunkard as a person who drinks too much alcohol, then to remain consistent you can't define glutton in the way you have suggested."

I define glutton as scripture does. I know that bothers you but,oh well.

For the record, obesity is not a sin no matter what you choose to believe.

I see a pattern forming here. When it benefits you personally (criticism, being over-weight, etc), your hermeneutics get sloppy.

Jon L. Estes said...

"And how does one become obese?

Excessive eating and drinking."

Always?

Anonymous said...

Pastor Steve Gaines wouldn't let a non thither sing (calls them "Betty the Bank Robber") but has no problem when Zack the Fornicator sings,

So whats the big deal here?

Dee said...

Jon

One can appear obese due to steroid usage and liver failure. You retain water, especially over the belly. You may also get a hump in the top middle of your back from adrenal problems. If you weigh yourself during this time period, you may gain quite a bit of water weight. However, by stopping steroid usage or treating the underlying medical condition, this water weight easily goes away. This is not classified as obesity by any medical doctor.

Let me put this more graphically, There were no fat people coming out of the concentration camps. Even the ones who developed things like liver failure had rounded bellies with sticks for legs.

Look, I am not saying it is easy to lose weight. However, we Christians expect alcoholics to stop drinking, drug addicts to give it up and homosexuals to remain celibate. We express disgust for those who struggle in this area.

Yet we cut ourselves a break because we have a hard time limiting our consumption and increasing our exercise. This should be a lesson for all of us who point fingers at the world, me included.

Jon L. Estes said...

Deed,

I hope I am not pointing fingers but making a case with my circumstances in mind.

I am blessed to still have my left leg after the accident in 87. That does not take into account the right knee was also destroyed the same night.

No steroids, ever. The only meds I take are: BC powder for pain and a non seizure medicine due to a seizure I had last year.

What is amazing, to me. The only time I seem to be without pain is when I am teaching or preaching. This may be due to a heavy focus on something other than the pain. I rarely get on my knees unless I have some sort of knee pads on. I do wear those runners knee bands which help at times but I do not want to get dependent on them.

Thanks for your comments.

Dee said...

Jon
Pain is an awful thing. I hope that you have had the opportunity to consult with a pain specialist. They are working wonders in the area of nerve blocks and certain meds which control pain loops. Most major medical centers have doctors who specialize in this wonderful field.

If I can be of assistance in putting you in touch with some state of the art pain specialists, WD knows how to contact me. One thing my husband and I know is how to get the best doctors.

Anonymous said...

"Always?"

Jon, as you well know, there is an exception to every rule. That does not make the rule false. Bad logic.

There are some medications that cause people to become obese on rare occasions. You have already stated that is not the case for you. Moot point.

I'll make a deal with you Jon. Stop eating and only drink water for a month. If you don't loose a significant amount of weight, I will admit that I am wrong.

Deal?

Anonymous said...

"Pastor Steve Gaines wouldn't let a non thither sing (calls them "Betty the Bank Robber") but has no problem when Zack the Fornicator sings,"

Another mega who is overweight and brags about how he always has two desserts with dinner.

Drinking - wrong
Fornication - wrong
Not giving 10% - wrong
Criticizing the pastor - wrong

Gluttony - not only is it not wrong the pastor brags about it

Anonymous said...

Beast bellies did provide much service in crackaw and therefore we exterminited by inability to creat movement with their pot bellies.

Anonymous said...

Drinking - wrong
Fornication - wrong
Not giving 10% - wrong
Criticizing the pastor - wrong


What pastor or did you mean a pastor?

Anonymous said...

"Actually, No I didn't. I stopped you according to your instruction."

Actually, No you didn't. You just added a new layer of bad thinking to what you had offered before.

Not only was your interpretation illogical but also self-serving.

Anonymous said...

"What pastor or did you mean a pastor?"

The ones that try to use "Touch Not Mine Anointed" out of context to deflect any criticism, and yet can't answer questions about who modern day prophets are or how we know who they are or how kings fit in.

Ask too many questions and they then move onto the "don't answer silly questions" verses even though they are logical follow-up questions to their interpretation.

In context, that verse was given as a warning by God to not kill Israel's king or prophets.

Anonymous said...

"Wrong again. It's getting habitual"

You would need to teach me how Jon.

And it is you, not I, who is unable to defend your interpretation of scripture.

You like to make bold proclamations using proof texts.

That may work in the pulpit, but in the real world where people are not intimidated and want authentic answers, it's exceedingly clear that your interpretation of scripture is not based on sound exegetical skills, but instead is tainted by tradition, manipulation, and a self-serving mentality.

Anonymous said...

"The dictionary is not my source for understanding the word."

Really? So, you don't use a dictionary when looking the meanings of Greek words?

This certainly explains a few things. It does make it much more difficult to equivocate on terms that you wish to twist to serve your own purposes with that pesky official English dictionary getting in the way doesn't it?

Anonymous said...

"zalal - a primitive root [compare Hebrew 2107 (zuwl)]; to shake (as in the wind), i.e. to quake; figurative to be loose morally, worthless or prodigal :- blow down, glutton, riotous (eater), vile."

Wow, Jon you amaze me. You say you don't need a dictionary to study the word and then you use a dictionary definition in your next quote. Are you being obtuse on purpose or is this some kind of self-defeating ironic twist?

Ah, Greek - a pastor's best friend when trying to muddy the waters.

Unfortunately for you, the verse defines a glutton as "an eater of meat" - Nice try though.

Anonymous said...

"So a glutton is an eater of the flesh and will come to poverty? I guess that leaves me out. Thanks for letting me know I am not cannibalistic nor in poverty. Guess i can't be a glutton."

Again, you have left out the context Jon. Psalms are truisms - generally true - not iron-clad in all cases.

If that were the case every drunkard would be poor. Charlie Sheen would be surprise to hear that.

Did they not teach you this stuff in seminary?

Anonymous said...

"I define glutton as scripture does. I know that bothers you but,oh well."

Circular logic. No definition.

Take your tin foil hat off Jon and open your dictionary (the same source you use to learn what Greek words mean) - it says excessive eating and drinking.

So does the Bible in the verse we are discussing.

It is amazing how far people will go to avoid the obvious when they are involved personally.

Anonymous said...

"I define glutton as scripture does. I know that bothers you but,oh well."

Circular logic. No definition.

Take your tin foil hat off Jon and open your dictionary (the same source you use to learn what Greek words mean) - it says excessive eating and drinking.

So does the Bible in the verse we are discussing.

It is amazing how far people will go to avoid the obvious when they are involved personally.

Anonymous said...

"For the record, obesity is not a sin no matter what you choose to believe."

Another bold proclamation with no biblical support.

Overeating is just as much a sin as over-drinking.

Anonymous said...

"I see a pattern forming here. When it benefits you personally (criticism, being over-weight, etc), your hermeneutics get sloppy."

Again the thinking is bad. How does my interpretation benefit me?

Answer: it doesn't

How does your interpretation benefit you?

Answer:
"Touch Not Mine Anointed"
Don't criticize me or my friends

"Obesity is not a sin"
I'm overweight and it's not wrong

Should I continue?

Anonymous said...

So what is Sin?

Answer

Whatever an Anointed says it is (according to the Book - ie their book).

Just this week on a LWF Wednesday TV broadcast you could hear the renowned Adrian Rogers
state that the sin of omission is WORST than the sin of Commission (Hmmm what was he saying? So not doing something (like not tithing) is worst what Paul Williams did to
his son?)

Worst? what does that mean?

How is anyone going to be punished for all these do's and don'ts?

Wade Burleson just "saved" a alleged child predator from HELL, Wow

No judgment there , so what is the punishment for all this Sin or the little one of overeating? (remember, we've been taught that ALL Sin is the same in Gods sight)

What is the punishment for Lust as described by Paige Patterson?

So the goodies get the front row close to God (let's see , how many millions in Heaven?)
and the baddies get the back row. (the unforgiven Billions just burn forever?)

What a Mighty God we serve, What a Mighty God we serve,,,,

It's beginning to sound like the Dark Ages of Roman Catholicism.

Oh, we can't let that happen, just think of all those unemployed Anointed's!!!

Wait, they'd be like the unions (THE ANOINTED UNION), jobs forever without doing anything.....

Cruises, Unlimited Health Benefits, Book signing tours, Paid Retirement, Right to collective bargaining (so and so is getting this $$$$, so if you want to keep me, so should I)

Anonymous said...

I see a pattern forming here. When it benefits you personally (criticism, being over-weight, etc), your hermeneutics get sloppy.

March 25, 2011 11:19 AM

Bingo.

As he did with the Hebrew on gluttony even though it was paired with the metaphorical "meat" which is about all one could be gluttoness with in those days. Perhaps dates or figs but those were easier to come by than meat. :o)

Jon is as slick as Clinton when it comes to parsing.

Jon L. Estes said...

""For the record, obesity is not a sin no matter what you choose to believe."

Another bold proclamation with no biblical support.

Overeating is just as much a sin as over-drinking."

To support your position you discount any and all who are obese who are not gluttons. Now if you want to make scripture say something it doesn't then you and yours can.

As far as the always in 1 Peter, I'll stick with Robert Jamieson, A.R. Fausset, and David Brown's interpretation on this rather than yours.

Jon L. Estes said...

Gluttony (in eating) can also not produce obesity in some people.

In the Proverbs passage a good synonymous word for gluttonous is riotous eaters. The same word is used in Deuteronomy 21 and is not used in context with eating but does with drinking.

It is sad you misuse scripture as you do and try to make it say obesity is a sin and is the same thing as gluttony.

Oh, by the way the word inproverbs 20 is flesh, not meat.


basar - from Hebrew 1319 (basar); flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man :- body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin.

Nice try. just keeping the scripture saying what the scripture says.

Why are you using the OC text anyways, to you it is non applicable to today.

;-)

Anonymous said...

Ok Jon. Then it mean riotous eating of humans

Tom said...

That video was just.......weird.

Lynn said...

Maybe the older people like the older, fat preachers. The younger people aren't as lenient re weight issues. They like the young, lean mega preachers.

I like what Dee said about how we expect drug users to just stop drugs, alcoholics to just stop with the alcohol, gays are supposed to just choose celibacy.

All so very easy. Problems solved. Oh yes and Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are so powerful and can make them accomplish these changes. If so, then why doesn't the Holy Spirit make Baptists thin?
I'm sure plenty of women have prayed and begged God for help with losing weight.

But getting back to my point, the "sins" of others are so much more fun to discuss and judge, than our own "sins."

Why people have different sized bodies is way more complicated than calories in/calories out. That applies somewhat but is very far from the real answer. Genetics is a factor. Body type is a factor. What your body does with the calories you eat is a huge factor. Hormones, etc. tell your body where to put the fat, how long to hold onto it, etc. It's a fascinating subject.

And I think a lot of this arguing boils down to-if we like somebody, we'll try to justify anything they do, and if we don't like somebody, we'll criticize every word or action as if it's unforgivable.

Lynn said...

Oh, one more thing. Speaking of fat Baptists, you know that Huckabee used to be very fat. In fact the first time I heard of him was through his little diet book that he wrote. I admired him for setting out to accomplish losing all that weight and then doing it. Plus he's kept it off. It's inspirational actually. And he did it while being a politician and governor in a southern state with all that good southern cooking around him constantly.

Show that the one huge factor needed to accomplish a goal is "desire." I think that's from the movie "Stand and Deliver."

Anonymous said...

I am not sure if anyone has written this or not, but this is an adaption from C.S Lewis' "Mere Christianity", which speaks to unhealthy infatuations with simple, God-given natural needs (food, sex, etc.). However, I am not sure if it translated well from the book to the live stage...did he explain it more fully after the scene?

Anonymous said...

"Gluttony (in eating) can also not produce obesity in some people."

Jon, are you one of those .00000000000001%?

No?

Moot point.

Anonymous said...

"In the Proverbs passage a good synonymous word for gluttonous is riotous eaters. The same word is used in Deuteronomy 21 and is not used in context with eating but does with drinking."

By the standards of that day. Most Americans would be considered riotous eaters. Just visit any local buffet.

Anonymous said...

"It is sad you misuse scripture as you do and try to make it say obesity is a sin and is the same thing as gluttony."

What is even more sad and obvious to almost everyone except for yourself, is that you are ignoring the obvious teaching of scripture for self-serving purposes.

Da Nile ain't just a river in Egypt.

Anonymous said...

"Oh, by the way the word inproverbs 20 is flesh, not meat."

Don't all mammals have flesh?

This is getting silly.

Anonymous said...

"Why are you using the OC text anyways, to you it is non applicable to today."

Another straw man argument.
Is that all you have?

How about stoning children for disobedience Jon?

Is that applicable for today or are you saying that is just a historical text?

Anonymous said...

"To support your position you discount any and all who are obese who are not gluttons."

As you have already stated Jon, that is not the case with you.

Moot point.

Some people have more of a propensity to rape and homosexuality. That doesn't excuse their behavior.

I'm sure you don't realize it Jon, but you are employing the same bad logic that homosexuals do for their behavior which runs contrary to scripture.

Anonymous said...

"As far as the always in 1 Peter, I'll stick with Robert Jamieson, A.R. Fausset, and David Brown's interpretation on this rather than yours."

Jon, that is disappointing. I mean a third grader could have offered a better come-back than that.

How about "I know you are but what am I?"

Notice Jon doesn't address the subject but instead makes a personal attack.

Oldest trick in the book by a person who doesn't have the facts on their side, and isn't articulate enough to engage on the issues.

It's called an ad homenim attack. Latin for "to the man."

It's the only way a simpleton knows how to respond. But I guess it's better than admitting defeat.

Right Jon?

Anonymous said...

"basar - from Hebrew 1319 (basar); flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man :- body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin."

What was your source for this word Jon? A dictionary?

At this point, I am forced to use your own words against you:

"The dictionary is not my source for understanding the word."

Thanks for disqualifying your own point Jon.

You are making this too easy for me.

Anonymous said...

And, one more time, how are the four modern day prophets that you mentioned qualified?

Where is there list of fulfilled prophecy which was a part of your definition of a prophet?

Anonymous said...

"Oh, by the way the word inproverbs 20 is flesh, not meat."

Don't all mammals have flesh?

This is getting silly.

March 28, 2011 2:54 PM

Exactly! As I pointed out above, Jon's interpretation means "riotous eating of humans".


Has it occured to anyone that Jon hopes you won't actually check anything? Notice he is trying imply that "flesh" cannot mean "meat".

And he makes his living teaching the Word!

Only fools sit under humans and never check their interpretations. This is why so many believe in such things as "tithes" and "roles".

Don't be impressed with titles or even seminary degrees. Most of it is indoctrination.

Study to show yourself approved. (That does not mean listening to the pastor. It means YOU study)

Anonymous said...

My favorite part is where he says that the dictionary is not his source for understanding the word, and the very next thing he does is use a dictionary to understand the word.

Are the sheep really this gullible?

Anonymous said...

My favorite part is where he says that the dictionary is not his source for understanding the word, and the very next thing he does is use a dictionary to understand the word.

Are the sheep really this gullible?

March 28, 2011 4:42 PM

read "butcher priest" in the latest thread. The answer is: yes.

What kills me is how arrogant ignorance is. They don't know that they don't know.

How many people still sit and listen to Mac spew this stuff to get more dollars?

Anonymous said...

And here is Paige Paterson Saying


...as you become a Southwesterner , you'd better be Dead than discredit that Holy Name ...

pastorhatfield said...

Patterson a pharisee? please. May I introduce you to some IFB preachers I sit under as a child?

Anonymous said...

The guy is like 70 years old and still preaching quite well. Lets see you keep preaching, stay in shape, and still be living at 70.