"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Saturday, May 28, 2011

"Holy Ground" Dirt from FBC Dallas Construction Site is Given to Members as a Reminder to "Pray" (and Pay) for the New Church Construction

Twenty years ago I used to think there was a wide gap between mega churches and televangelist ministries.

Used to be that phony evangelists like Peter Popoff would be the only ones sending people vials containing "holy water", "Dead Sea Salt" or pieces of "holy cloth".

Now, First Baptist Dallas is giving members little vials containing "Holy Ground", inside of a "prayer tent" as shown at left.

What is this? Well, that is a foldable "prayer tent", with a little vial filled with dirt under the tent. But not just any dirt. This is special, "holy" dirt.

How is the dirt in the vial "holy" and called "Holy Ground"? It is dirt from the construction site of the new $115 million dollar First Baptist Dallas campus. I'm not kidding. I couldn't have made this up myself. Apparently someone went out to the construction site and filled buckets with the construction site dirt, bought some vials, and filled thousands of vials with the dirt. What a tremendous service in the Lord's work, putting construction site dirt in little glass vials. I'm sure Jesus was pleased with that project. If FBC Dallas has any extras, perhaps they can be handed out to the homeless, or sold on eBay.

At the church's website announcing that the pastor is going to give these vials inside of the "prayer tent" to attenders on May 15th, they say:
"Dr. Jeffress has a special "prayer tent" to give each person who attends Sunday's services that includes a vial of dirt from the construction site - "Holy Ground" reminding everyone to pray for the construction of the new campus and the future ministry of First Baptist Dallas."
Notice, it is the pastor who is going to give it out. Just like it was Peter Popoff personally sending you the "holy water", right? Thank you, pastor, for the vial of "Holy Ground". And I wonder if the statement above contains a typo...is this a reminder for people to "pray" for the new campus? Or did they mean a reminder to PAY for the campus? After all, the "Holy Ground" was handed out on the first anniversary of the "commitment Sunday", to remind people of their commitment to pray, er, pay for it!

Yes, someone on staff at First Baptist Dallas - or maybe it was one of those high-priced "generosity consultants" - came up with the bright idea that they could keep the peeps motivated to pray and pay for the new church by handing out a vial of "holy land" dirt inside of a "prayer tent". Maybe they got the idea when they read that the Catholics were installing vials of the pope's holy blood as a relic in a Polish church.

This is just a shameless gimmick. It is an insult to people's intelligence, to infer some sort of "holiness" to the actual spot where the church is being built. The bible refers to "holy ground" as being a spot where God's presence was on Mount Horeb where God spoke to Moses. A church construction site is not "holy ground" any more than the pope's blood is special or holy.

"Guilt Gifts" - A Marketing Strategy

FBC Dallas members, let's consider what this is all about from a pure marketing standpoint. In this age of church marketing, you need to consider the motives of your church leadership in going to all of this trouble to make you a vial filled with dirt in a prayer tent for display at your house. What your church and their marketers have done is use the strategy of giving you a "guilt gift". Non-profits have engaged in this for a long time. It is a practice that some fundraising groups discourage.

Marketers have coined the term "Guilt Gifts" to describe unsolicited gifts given to potential donors to create even the slightest amount of obligation for a return financial gift. Marketers recommend this strategy when they believe that the net increase in giving from the guilt created, is greater than the total cost of preparing and sending the gift. You certainly didn't ask for the church to dig up dirt and fill a vial and prepare a prayer tent, but they did it and they gave it to you. While this particular gift may not include a direct solicitation for money, the connection is obvious: church members committed future gifts to the church construction, and on the one-year anniversary of your commitment you are given a gift that took time and effort to prepare. It is more than a magnet or a card. It is a vial with special dirt from the construction site that YOU committed to fund. The pastor mashed the big red button and blew up the church creating the dirt, based on YOUR commitment. That vial represents what you said you would do to rebuild. Masterful marketing strategy in giving you the vial of dirt created when your pastor mashed the big red button.

A blogger here wrote about this tactic used by a charity raising money for children in Peru. A little bracelet is sent to the potential donor, and it is implied that a poor Peruvian girl made it. The blogger wonders if the bracelet was made in Peru, by the girl, as it is implied in the letter. Obviously it is not, it is a gimmick sent to thousands of potential donors with an expected net increase in giving greater than the cost of preparing the gifts.

I hope the vial of "Holy Ground" in the prayer tent has a removable lid. If so, maybe in days to come church members will be instructed to sprinkle the Holy Ground on their yard or on their doorstep to sanctify their home, or to smear it on their door posts, or to sprinkle some in their coffee.

Or as Peter Popoff instructed people to do with packets of holy "Dead Sea Salt", maybe church members can sprinkle the "Holy Ground" on their checks that they send in to FBC Dallas for the new church construction.

One last piece of advice to FBC Dallas members: do NOT carry this vial in your car, and always keep it WITH the prayer tent. Otherwise, it might be mistaken for something other than dirt, and a police officer might be quite skeptical when you try to explain that you have a vial of "Holy Ground" dirt from your church construction site. When you explain THAT to the officer, he will likely think you've been smoking the contents and will haul you off to jail. :)

81 comments:

Anonymous said...

So what is the definition of holy?
1. Dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred: "the Holy Bible"; "the holy month of Ramadan". (per google)

Seems like your a bit off base on your "holy" part of the post.

On the they don't want us to pray instead to "Pay" Nothing in what they have written backs that up.

Quite a stretch on this one wd.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Read a bit more closely, anon...it is not just "holy"...they use the term, in big bold letters "Holy Ground". Newsflash: the church site is not "holy ground".

They need you to pray...and pay....and they gave you a gift to accomplish both.

Anonymous said...

"You are holding, holy ground.

And there are tractors and dump trucks, all around.

Let us praise, Jesus, now,

As we build a Crystal Campus,

on Holy Ground."

Anonymous said...

Reminds me of the $500 bricks Falwell "gave" away years ago for donations to build his school.

Anonymous said...

Lighten up oh great butt sniffer.

I think they are just having fun with a play on words.

Have you not heard of the coffee company: Holy Grounds?

Besides, it is an easy way to git rid of the churches "dirt"!

And at least they are doing it as you like, open to the public with full disclosure!

Anonymous said...

Wonder how much it cost to produce each one of those? Probably not less than $3.

That's a pretty penny for "13,000" members.

It's even a significant amount for the 2,000 who actually attend.

Anonymous said...

Acts 19:12
so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.


Paul had a hankerchief! He used it as a means of prayer for the sick. You would have called him Benny Hinn or worse!

You guys blow up everything into a big deal!

This is just a tool for prayer, like an altar or a candle...just a reminder of the power of God.

Wow, you must be really bored to comment on this stuff.

Anonymous said...

All this is is a type of indulgence to trick the masses into thinking that they are doing something Godly.

Jeffress needs to change his name to Tetzel

Pastorbill

Bored in Baldwin said...

"Wow, you must be really bored to comment on this stuff."

TOTALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Bored in Baldwin

If we are that bored, how bored are you to care that we are that bored!!!

Think about it ; )

Anonymous said...

"Holy Ground" overseen by the "Holy Men" . . .the Watchdog never bores us with his articles! Here we go upsetting the Dallas people for posting from what others have had to say. These guys wouldn't last their 90 day probation in the real world. No wonder people are no longer giving these "Holy Men" the money for their stupid publicity stunts.

Sharon said...

The Baptists can't make fun of the Catholics now, I guess.

I think it's all about boredom. Must constantly try to keep people enthused over the same old story.

Anonymous said...

Not a bad promo idea

Anonymous said...

WD, I was in attendance on May 15, when the ends of each pew had a stash of the celophane bags with the vial of dirt and cardboard fold-up tent. My instant thought was, what a cheap and cheesy tactic.

This is the same leadership that gave away a Jeep on the former plaza, for someone who attended and happened to have her name pulled from a pile of other names.

That jeep (idol) sat on Cadane Plaza, with a rope and post barrier around it, like some golden calf out the movie with Chuck Heston.

"Come to church here, and win a car!!" Now, it's holy dirt in a vial, you must pay and pray. Mostly pay.

I see the construction out of my office window each day, there are 3, count em, Three hammerhead cranes spinning in the air, moving materials around and around. Oh it's quite the visual circus, to watch all this construction.

But 'Holy Ground'? Puh-leeze. It might be consecrated, but unless G-D is present on it, like the OT temple, then it ain't holy, just consecrated. What happened to the 'holy buildings' that sat there for decades with deferred maintenance and lack of code upgrades? Was the debris that was hauled off also holy? Is it in a holy landfill now?

Old aint holy, only new can be holy.

The one anon. with the ridiculous insult to you is so typical of the lefties in the church. 'Our way or the highway' mentality. Our pastor is 'Gods Man', etc. etc.

They worship these idols like rank pagans, be they preachers or buildings. I had hoped you would hit on this dirt campaign and you did. THank You. That stupid story needs to be told.

Pastors of integrity would not cheapen his image with such junk. But that seems to be the new norm, Junk-for-Jesus. It shows up in the weak sermons, the contemporary music and daily conduct.

All in all, its disgusting to see. BTW, I attended another church the following week. I'm looking for other leadership, not focused on the glitz of celebrity or 20 seconds of air time.

Garlando

Anonymous said...

Paul had a hankerchief! He used it as a means of prayer for the sick. You would have called him Benny Hinn or worse!"

keep reading in Acts 19 and you will see this:

15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?”

context is everything.

And Paul was not trying to an idolatrous building with his hankies. His were free.

Anonymous said...

Their premise is flawed and blasphemous. There is no such thing as holy ground since God now "dwells" in our hearts...If we are saved.

but such details are lost on these charlatans.

Sharon said...

I'm attending a church that's without a pastor right now. They have different members each Sunday do the talk on a subject meaningful to their spirituality. I'm finding hearing lots of different people to be quite refreshing. Kinda dreading when they do find a pastor. No one is preaching; just sharing their journey.

New BBC Open Forum said...

This story just proves once again that truth is stranger than fiction.

New BBC Open Forum said...

On a different note, did anyone catch Maurilio on TBN this week? He looked very different than his photos. I wouldn't have known it was the same person.

You can watch it here on the May 26th broadcast beginning about 72 minutes in.

Anonymous said...

I did watch Maurilio. I found it interesting he made the comment about the large woman wearing white as if he is beyond that now. What a joke! The guy is about looking his nose down on anyone he thinks below him, which is most people. Hyprocrite! Disgusting that churches rely on this guy for marketing/branding.

Brunson - I am sure you have someone monitoring this blog. You should be ashamed and will one day have to answer for what you know and what you do.

I feel better....:)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Anon 10:40,

Maurilio didn't say he didn't think those things anymore. He just said he'd learned not to be so blunt. Still, the arrogance shines through. If this is the less blunt Maurilio, I'm glad I never saw the more blunt version.

Did you notice how he was rockin' that skinny tie?

WishIhadknown said...

“Acts 19:12
so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.”
True, God used such things at that time but there is one important thing we have that they did not. The complete Scriptures! The Bible is filled with things God used at one time, the ark, a staff, a box, a sheep skin, but we do not. Why do you need a candle to remind you of God’s power? Is the Holy Spirit not enough! Is the Bible not enough? Rely on casting a sheep skin if you must but that sounds like an opportunity for the forces of this age to lead you down the wrong path.
Are we not called to be a people of faith? Are not to be a people of God’s word? Should we not seek and rely on the filling and leading of the Holy Spirit?
Put your faith in relics if you must but I for one do not need Joseph’s pants.

Anonymous said...

I like the Holy Ground concept. Every time I see it, I'm reminded to pray and rejoice for both the physicial and spiritual building of the body we are experiencing in Dallas. Among many examples, an entire Hispanic family was baptized recently.

It seems to me you are seeking to exegete a common expression. You are complaining about about good communication and leadership in a modern, industrialized economy. Next you will be complaining about the use of full-color printing instead of using a memograph--"this money could have been given to the poor."

Ironically, on this Memorial Day, there will be ceremonies all over the globe, with numerous references to "Hallowed Ground." The Dog, by his logic, if he were able, would rise to correct the assembled crowd, "Not so! That's just a cheap marketing gimmick intended to help you get used to the idea of war!"

Touche.

Anonymous said...

"I like the Holy Ground concept. Every time I see it, I'm reminded to pray and rejoice for both the physicial and spiritual building of the body we are experiencing in Dallas. Among many examples, an entire Hispanic afmily was baptized recently.'

Individuals that are saved are both the "physical and spiritual building" in the new covenant. You can worship buildings you think are Holy Ground all you want but it is idolatry.

Your mentioning the family baptized are hispanic is gratuitous. As if that is special in Dallas?

Baptists claim 16 million members...all baptized. We can barely find half in the churches.

the question is what are they being baptized to at FBCDallas? To worship buildings on Holy Ground?

I do not think FBCDallas really understands the Gospel.

Anonymous said...

Ironically, on this Memorial Day, there will be ceremonies all over the globe, with numerous references to "Hallowed Ground." The Dog, by his logic, if he were able, would rise to correct the assembled crowd, "Not so! That's just a cheap marketing gimmick intended to help you get used to the idea of war!"

You are comparing such things to those educated in Theology who should know better? Jeffries really believes it is Holy Dirt? As one commenter asked earlier...the old buildings were not holy ground?

You people are simplyignorant or silly...perhaps both.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Among many examples, an entire Hispanic afmily was baptized recently.

What does the fact they're Hispanic have to do with anything?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 6:47

OK, let's go with your example.

On Memorial Day weekend, if someone takes dirt from Arlington Cemetary and puts it in little vials and labels it "Holy Ground" and gives it to donors to remind them to pray for Arlington Cemetary and the construction of a new museum to be built there, yes, that would be a tasteless, shameless marketing gimmick.

Touche to you. :)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Vials of cemetery dirt? I don't think you want to go there. (Google it if you don't get it.)

Anonymous said...

Has anyone else noticed that many of these mega church defenders do not use a lot of logic. It is as if they have been so brainwashed they cannot think for themselves.

Dawg Luver said...

"Has anyone else noticed that many of these mega church defenders do not use a lot of logic. It is as if they have been so brainwashed they cannot think for themselves."

Anon, I wouldn't blog so loudly, me thinks the other side thinks the same way.

"Has anyone else noticed that many of these FBC Jax Watchdog defenders do not use a lot of logic. It is as if they have been so brainwashed they cannot think for themselves."

Just food for thought!

Anonymous said...

"Has anyone else noticed that many of these FBC Jax Watchdog defenders do not use a lot of logic. It is as if they have been so brainwashed they cannot think for themselves."

Just food for thought!

May 30, 2011 2:35 PM

Anon, I guess you can include The Florida Times Union with the WD pack of defenders who you say are brainwashed - sorry, but we're going by facts on this blog - facts that are truthful!

Anonymous said...

WD-

This is cheap, tacky, lacking good sense, and even cheesy. But this does not surprise me. Let's not forget that Jeffress' TV show "Pathway to Victory" airs on such channels as Daystar and TBN, he has just learned from the best.

Keep on Robert (Tilton) Jeffress. Do what "Mrs. C" couldn't do, destroy the reputation and effectiveness of FBC Dallas!

Jon L. Estes said...

"Anon, I guess you can include The Florida Times Union with the WD pack of defenders who you say are brainwashed - sorry, but we're going by facts on this blog - facts that are truthful!"

are you sure the FTU would support the all the posts and comments on this blog which support Tom? I fond that hard to believe. They supported his claim to which the lawsuit concerns but I doubt they would support all that has been said since.

As far as the dirt is concerned, isn't it up to the members of FBCD to speak out about such things if they are concerned?

Jon L. Estes said...

"Keep on Robert (Tilton) Jeffress. Do what "Mrs. C" couldn't do, destroy the reputation and effectiveness of FBC Dallas!"

How is this a God honoring, Christ exalting statement? Oh, your opinion is noted but that does not make such a comment right.

Anonymous said...

Jon-
I am the anon 6:31, to whom you are alluding to. I have read enough of your thoughts and posts on here to not bother with responding to you, sir.
Kyle

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Jon - I am quite certain the Times Union reporters don't regularly read this blog, and thus they don't "support" any posts or comments. I DO read the Times Union, and I don't "support" (I assume you mean "agree with") all of their articles or editorials, and certainly don't agree with their commenters.

But what I do support, is their free speech, and I appreciate their website being a place where people can post and debate the stories.

This weekend Jim Schoettler posted an article on why Hogan lost the mayoral election, and Jim chose to interact with his readers in the discussion forum attached to the article. It was very interesting.

So I would say they support the idea of someone blogging about one of the largest and most influential churches in town, and I'm sure they don't agree with me or you...but then again they ain't reading this blog every day like you.

Sterling said...

The tone in which you composed this post embarrassed me and gave me sorrow.

Father. Thank you for your grace. I receive it daily without deserving it. I thank you for technology and how it enables your followers to bring glory to your name. I pray that Watchdog, the people on this blog, and myself look to you before we speak. I know you have called me to be a man of gentleness and not wittiness. I pray that you daily reveal the sin of Watchdog and myself when we use our tongue in dishonoring ways. Additionally, I pray that you bring us both back to the cross. Fix our eyes on you and what you did at the cross. I ask that through the tears of repentance we might see your glory and grace in clearer and brighter ways. It's in Jesus name I pray. Amen.

Jon L. Estes said...

"I am the anon 6:31, to whom you are alluding to. I have read enough of your thoughts and posts on here to not bother with responding to you, sir.
Kyle"

Kyle -

I admit I have been caustic in the past and I have repented of my attitude. What I refuse to do is speak about others in a manner which is destructive but I am more than willing to speak to anyone who is able to converse back.

I'm sure there are some here who disregard my comments and I have no problem with that but I am somewhat surprised my simple question is so readily dismissed. Maybe I shouldn't be as the question does lead to expose disrespectful words if they are there.

Mrs. C was a unique woman who I don't think anyone of us know what it was like to live her life. Mrs. C was a positive presence for many and to many in FBCD's life. Like all of us, there are probably people out there who don't think so.

Thanks for letting me know it was you Kyle.

Anonymous said...

"Has anyone else noticed that many of these FBC Jax Watchdog defenders do not use a lot of logic. It is as if they have been so brainwashed they cannot think for themselves.""

OOPS....I meant FBC JAX defenders!

Anonymous said...

I admit I have been caustic in the past and I have repented of my attitude. What I refuse to do is speak about others in a manner which is destructive but I am more than willing to speak to anyone who is able to converse back.

I'm sure there are some here who disregard my comments and I have no problem with that but I am somewhat surprised my simple question is so readily dismissed. Maybe I shouldn't be as the question does lead to expose disrespectful words if they are there.

Mrs. C was a unique woman who I don't think anyone of us know what it was like to live her life. Mrs. C was a positive presence for many and to many in FBCD's life. Like all of us, there are probably people out there who don't think so.

Thanks for letting me know it was you Kyle.

May 30, 2011 11:35 PM


see Jon is trying to convince you it is a sin to speak of any hypocrisy or deception by the Criswells.

However, You might want to read Joel Gregory's book "Too Great A Temptation" to get a look at the Criswell's that is not your usual worship by SBC pastors and leadership.

BTW: Mrs. Criswell taught a mixed SS class thatg was on the radio. She taught men in the SBC!@!@!

YOU should question the Christian leaders who put themselves out there as someone to learn and immulate. You are a fool if you don't. And when you find deception and/or hypocrisy, you should warn others. They are PUBLIC people and strive to make a living promoting themwelves as Christian role models. DO NOT follow men, follow Christ.

BTW: The Criswells became quite wealthy off the Gospel. Ever see those mag layouts of all their antiques from all over the world?

If not, you might end of following someone like Jon.

Anonymous said...

How is this a God honoring, Christ exalting statement? Oh, your opinion is noted but that does not make such a comment right.

May 30, 2011 7:30 PM

Jon, you are such a phony. Too bad you cannot see it. Has there ever been an SBC charlatan you have not defended? :o)

Jon L. Estes said...

"see Jon is trying to convince you it is a sin to speak of any hypocrisy or deception by the Criswells."

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything more than you are most others on this blog. Isn't about every comment made an attempt to persuade how right our position is?

"However, You might want to read Joel Gregory's book "Too Great A Temptation" to get a look at the Criswell's that is not your usual worship by SBC pastors and leadership."

Read it. It was a sad book written by a hurting man. I am sure he wrote as he interpreted it. I learned some things from the book (OK, one thing at least) and it wasn't about the Criswell's. The people I know that knew the Criswell's did not worship him but did admire him and the many great things he accomplished for the kingdom. As one who was previously employed by FBCD, some of the methodologies used would not have been my choice.

BTW: Mrs. Criswell taught a mixed SS class thatg was on the radio. She taught men in the SBC!@!@!

Autonomy is a weird thing at times. From the calling of a pastor to the way they choose to implement ministry to the way they build buildings and beyond.

"YOU should question the Christian leaders who put themselves out there as someone to learn and immulate. You are a fool if you don't."

So, if I don't do it your way I am a fool? I know there were More things FBCD, the Criswell's and I agreed upon than disagreed upon. I chose to build our relationship upon our common ground than our differences.

"And when you find deception and/or hypocrisy, you should warn others. They are PUBLIC people and strive to make a living promoting themwelves as Christian role models. DO NOT follow men, follow Christ."

Not all things we think are deception are. To not see it your way does not mean anyone is following men.

"BTW: The Criswells became quite wealthy off the Gospel. Ever see those mag layouts of all their antiques from all over the world?"

Actually that is not true. Dr. Criswell gave back everything the church ever paid him. His wealth was made by means outside the church.

"If not, you might end of following someone like Jon."

Only if I am following Jesus, please.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Jon, you are such a phony. Too bad you cannot see it. Has there ever been an SBC charlatan you have not defended? :o)"

For the record, I have not defended Caner. I believe the only thing I have stated is some of the comments were, in my opinion, made to be humorous.

I have communicated to those here about their stated comments. Disagreeing with you and your approach to these things is not a defense of those you accuse.

Anonymous said...

"Anon, I guess you can include The Florida Times Union with the WD pack of defenders who you say are brainwashed - sorry, but we're going by facts on this blog - facts that are truthful!"

This is without question the most asinine things ever written on this blog. If you think this blog is based on nothing but fact then you are the one brainwashed. This blog is based on opinion and rumor that is then treated as fact. Some of what is blogged is true but some of what is blogged in false. "We're going by facts on this blog." HAHAHAHAHHA! I needed a good laugh this morning. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

"For the record, I have not defended Caner. I believe the only thing I have stated is some of the comments were, in my opinion, made to be humorous."

Are you refering to the comment where he claims to be a man of God?

Anonymous said...

"I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything more than you are most others on this blog. Isn't about every comment made an attempt to persuade how right our position is?"

This from the guy who is constantly trying to insinuate that you have a character flaw if you try to change another person's mind. Man, what a hypocrite!

I'll repeat one of your lines Jon: I have no problem with differing interpretations on a tertiary issue.

Anonymous said...

"The people I know that knew the Criswell's did not worship him but did admire him and the many great things he accomplished for the kingdom."

This from the guy who used teachings of men over scripture to support his view of the tithe for 50 years.

Anonymous said...

"So, if I don't do it your way I am a fool?"

This is classic Jon flim-flam. Make it about the person instead of the issue.

Example:
the sun is bright today

Jon:
it is cloudy outside - you can't even see the sun

Example:
you are a fool - it was just outside and there is not a cloud in the sky - and the weather forecast says clear today

Jon:
so if I disagree with you I am a fool?

Anonymous said...

"Not all things we think are deception are."

LOL!

"To not see it your way does not mean anyone is following men."

See previous comment.

Anonymous said...

"If not, you might end of following someone like Jon."

Only if I am following Jesus, please.

Well, that would support the first statement a majority of the time from what I have read so far.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Are you refering to the comment where he claims to be a man of God?"

I have no idea what you speak of.

"This from the guy who is constantly trying to insinuate that you have a character flaw if you try to change another person's mind. Man, what a hypocrite!"

Character flaws? Have not thought of such.

"I'll repeat one of your lines Jon: I have no problem with differing interpretations on a tertiary issue."

Do you?

Jon L. Estes said...

"This from the guy who used teachings of men over scripture to support his view of the tithe for 50 years."

I did not use teachings of men. I used what I understood the truth to be. For all those years I was in good company with many men of God who, through scripture, came to the same conclusion.

Go ahead and make your caustic statement about former FBCJ pastors. Those men of God who have been used as positive examples in the Maurello thread stream (thanks Kyle).

Anonymous said...

"I have no idea what you speak of."

It's a joke Jon. Lighten up.

Anonymous said...

"Character flaws? Have not thought of such."

Sure you have. You have implied it many times in the past. Followed immediately by a return to trying to convince others of your position.

Anonymous said...

"Do you?"

My philosophies comes from the Bible not from the culture.

The Bible teaches universal truth and commands us to study the Word to show ourselves approved. That way we can distinguish the truth from man-made traditions - the kind that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for following.

2 Timothy 3:16 states:
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

That is quite a contrast from your statement which seems to be a combination of relativism, a bad hermaneutic, and an advocacy of not knowing at the same time being absolutely sure that you are right.

Jesus taught us to get the plank out of our own eye and then to help our brother get the speck out of his - not to let him continue to walk around with a speck in his eye because you consider it "tertiary."

Anonymous said...

"I did not use teachings of men. I used what I understood the truth to be. For all those years I was in good company with many men of God who, through scripture, came to the same conclusion."

I can draw two conclusions from this paragraph.

1) You do not know how to interpret scripture correctly.

You ignore context and contradictions to support a self-serving tradition (from men).

If you supported the OT tithe not because of men but through your own study. Your methods are obviously flawed.

2) Actions speak louder than words. Even though you deny it, your last sentence demonstrates that you are more apt to follow the teachings of men over scripture interpreted correctly.

You are never in good company when you are teaching bad doctrine.

Anonymous said...

"Go ahead and make your caustic statement about former FBCJ pastors. Those men of God who have been used as positive examples in the Maurello thread stream (thanks Kyle)."

You are confusing me with someone else.

Not the first time you have been comfused.

Anonymous said...

Holy just means "dedicated, "set apart." As in Lincoln's famous text at the Dedication of a cemetary.

That's all that Holy Ground means. It's not as scandalous as WD would make it. (The Media, including bloggers, must bring the back of their hand up to their forehead in feigned indignation in order to keep viewers/readers.)

It's just an arresting image/reminder to pray.
No one has yet to report seeing an image of Jesus in the dirt.
It just real estate that will be used for a single purpose.

Have you ever pocketed a rock or other momento from a vacation? You know, like astronauts and their Moon Rocks. They might even put it under glass, and label it with an engraved caption....

Anonymous said...

"Actually that is not true. Dr. Criswell gave back everything the church ever paid him. His wealth was made by means outside the church."

Oh, that is a good one. You mean books, speaking gigs, etc. Of course, that has NOTHING to do with the church....gee....I wonder what he wrote and talked about that made him all that money.

They sure made enough to have home with a million dollars worth of antiques. maybe Mrs. Criswell was secretly working.

Jon loves his charlatans. Hopes to be one, I am sure.

Anonymous said...

"Not all things we think are deception are. To not see it your way does not mean anyone is following men."

Sure Jon, As long as we ignore facts, fruit and twist everything including scripture. You can make evil look good! Deception look normal!

Anonymous said...

Have you seen the Jordan River lately. Stephen Cobert showed a picture of all the pollution that would make one choke at being baptized there.
His reaction to the picture was classic, "Holy #$%#$@ !"

Jon L. Estes said...

"You are confusing me with someone else."

I wouldn't know and since so many here have the very same name... it does get confusing as a result.

"Not the first time you have been comfused."

Probably not the last, either. I am not as brilliantly blessed as many other unknown people. I would think someone with so much to offer would not hide their identity. But maybe some people have things top hide.

Jon L. Estes said...

"They sure made enough to have home with a million dollars worth of antiques. maybe Mrs. Criswell was secretly working."

What do you know about their home and its cost and how it was furnished? Can you tell me how much of their stuff was gifted to them from people around the world who they help impact for God's kingdom?

Don't believe everything negative thing you hear about the Criswell's. Not all is true. They were good people who impacted God's kingdom for His glory for many years.

Anonymous said...

"What do you know about their home and its cost and how it was furnished? Can you tell me how much of their stuff was gifted to them from people around the world who they help impact for God's kingdom?"

Oh, good one, Jon. The old 'gifting' explanation.

I am simply quoting Mrs. Criswell about her shopping trips to Europe for antiques. I am not sure if these articles are online or not. They go way back.

I am sure the Lord wanted them to live with millions of dollars of antiques surrounding them. Even if ALL of it was "gifted" (right).

Ater all, God wants His "special people" to be surrounded in luxury. The Bible says so. All we have to do it think of Paul's villa in Corinth. And we forget that Peter furnished his palace (gifted, of course) with artifacts he collected.

They forgot to have mini busts made of themself for sale, though, like Criswell did. Too bad.

Such impact for God's glory you were claiming for Criswell.

(Good thing he gave up that segregation thing he preached so long or he would not have ended up so rich)

Maurilio, are you reading...mini busts of Mac.....

Anonymous said...

"Probably not the last, either. I am not as brilliantly blessed as many other unknown people. I would think someone with so much to offer would not hide their identity. But maybe some people have things top hide."

I would think that a pastor who wasn't able to interpret scripture correctly as we are commanded to do would be embarrased to sign his name, but apparently ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand.

Anonymous said...

"I would think that a pastor who wasn't able to interpret scripture correctly as we are commanded to do would be embarrased to sign his name, but apparently ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand."

I have often wondered why more pastors do not defend Jon, here. We know that several read here.

I do notice that Jon stays away from certain pastor blogs and those I have seen him comment on in the past, he is very different in how he comes across.

I think he takes out his frustrations on us. Obviously, he cannot talk down to those who pay his salary this way.

Jon L. Estes said...

"I am sure the Lord wanted them to live with millions of dollars of antiques surrounding them. Even if ALL of it was "gifted" (right).

Ater all, God wants His "special people" to be surrounded in luxury. The Bible says so. All we have to do it think of Paul's villa in Corinth. And we forget that Peter furnished his palace (gifted, of course) with artifacts he collected. "

Sounds like you have a problem with ministers being wealthy.

Since you know so much about the Criswell's can you tell us where their wealth came from?

Just a question: If I were to buy something for lets say 10,000.00 and hold on to it for, let's say, a decade or two and someone offers me 1,000,000.00 for it... would I be sinning to sell it the value?

"I would think that a pastor who wasn't able to interpret scripture correctly as we are commanded to do would be embarrased to sign his name, but apparently ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand."

I interpret scripture fine and continue to grow in my understanding of it daily. What I don't do is interpret it exactly like you. That seems to be a problem with you.

Go ahead and say it. Tell us you interpret scripture correctly at all times. Tell us you have arrived and no longer need to be changed. You not only interpret it all correctly you obey it perfectly. Please let us in on your secret.

"Such impact for God's glory you were claiming for Criswell.'

At least I knew Criswell. One who I never looked for perfection from and saw some flaws in but I learned much from him and those at FBCD.

You need to remain anonymous. You need to hide from man. You can't hide from God. Or did I misinterpret that last sentence also?

Anonymous said...

"I interpret scripture fine and continue to grow in my understanding of it daily. What I don't do is interpret it exactly like you. That seems to be a problem with you."

This sounds good, but it's not really true is it?

Let's take the OT tithe for example. You held onto a 50 year traditional (incorrect) view until you discussed it with me for 3 days.

Then you changed your view over the weekend and tried to pretend it didn't have anything to do with our conversation.

Not only are your interpretation skills sorely lacking, but you are also ungrateful to someone that helped relieve you of your ignorance and are too arrogant to admit the truth.

You ended up agreeing with my interpreation anyway.

Sorry Jon - there is a paper trail. You aren't allowed to make that claim any longer.

Hypocritically you continue to claim that I want you to agree with me while at the same time trying to convince others of your position.

In reality, your actions (changing your life long position and agreeing with me) shows for all the world to see that you have no hermeaneutic skills.

Anonymous said...

"Go ahead and say it. Tell us you interpret scripture correctly at all times. Tell us you have arrived and no longer need to be changed. You not only interpret it all correctly you obey it perfectly. Please let us in on your secret."

In sports, when one guy starts trash talking when he is losing the game, the other player sometimes uses the phrase "scoreboard."

What that means is that all the cheap talk in the world means nothing. Anyone can talk. What counts is the scoreboard.

It's the same with you Jon. You can babble on with your bad logic, straw man arguments, self-serving interpretations and name calling, but in the end it means nothing.

The only thing that matters is the scoreboard.

The scoreboard says that you are losing Jon. You have changed your life-long interpretations to my view more than once and were not able to defend your other positions biblically.

On the other hand, you have presented no compeling evidence for me to reconsider my positions.

And that's mostly because your interests are divided being a professional Christian. You seem to need to agree with the traditional view for approval from the big names in the busiess.

I find no such need for men's approval and feel free to use reliable hermaneutic principles.

Scoreboard Jon scoreboard.

Anonymous said...

"You need to remain anonymous. You need to hide from man. You can't hide from God. Or did I misinterpret that last sentence also?"

So much for Jon's return to a civil tone.

Jon L. Estes said...

""You need to remain anonymous. You need to hide from man. You can't hide from God. Or did I misinterpret that last sentence also?"

So much for Jon's return to a civil tone."

Nothing uncivil intended about it. Just a suggestion and a fact.

If it offended you, I do apologize. That was not my intent. The question was intended to be slightly sarcastic. I do see how it could offend, I'll be glad to remove it.

Jon L. Estes said...

"What that means is that all the cheap talk in the world means nothing. Anyone can talk. What counts is the scoreboard."

I wasn't keeping score.

"You can babble on with your bad logic, straw man arguments, self-serving interpretations and name calling, but in the end it means nothing."

I know how you see me and it really doesn't matter but I am unaware of me calling anyone names. I have seen a lot of names being thrown around... even some my way.

"I find no such need for men's approval and feel free to use reliable hermaneutic principles."

Likewise I see no need for your approval or your final interpretation on all things.

This is getting out of hand if you are keeping score. Maybe the focus is wrong. To me that is just silly.

I'll bow out for a few days or so and let you cool down. When I return I will work to deal with the subject matter and not join in any personal bantering. Whether I agree or disagree with where people stand on the subject. I do hope that will help you not let me be the focus of your day.

Anonymous said...

"I wasn't keeping score."

That's because you are losing.

Anonymous said...

"I know how you see me and it really doesn't matter but I am unaware of me calling anyone names. I have seen a lot of names being thrown around... even some my way."

Again, it's not really about me. It's not how I see you, but more about how you present yourself.

Your interpretations are flawed as evidenced by your constantly changing positions.

The reference to name-calling is your silly attempt to divert away from the issue by tying to lump all anonymous posters into one category, and then pretend as if you know something about them.

It's called an ad hominem attack. Oldest trick in the book.

Anonymous said...

"Likewise I see no need for your approval or your final interpretation on all things."

Another straw man argument and a silly one at that considering you have already changed your interpretation to match mine after an extended discussion with me on more than one occasion.

Again your problem is not with me but with the proper interpretation of the Word.

Just as a side note (not that I expect you to understand), but it is hypocritical to accuse someone of trying to impose their view on others when you are doing the very same thing.

Anonymous said...

"This is getting out of hand if you are keeping score. Maybe the focus is wrong. To me that is just silly."

What is getting out of hand if your giant ego that can't admit when you are wrong and I am right.

You are right the focus should be on scripture and its proper interpration instead of offering ad hominem attacks.

Anonymous said...

"I'll bow out for a few days or so and let you cool down. When I return I will work to deal with the subject matter and not join in any personal bantering. Whether I agree or disagree with where people stand on the subject."

As I have noted many times before, I do not get emotionally involved when contending for the faith. It's about facts and knowledge not feelings.

"I do hope that will help you not let me be the focus of your day."

Jon, I think this blog has become the focus of not just your day but almost an obsession. I once counted over 30 comments from you on a single topic.

How are you able to accomplish anything at work when you spend so much time on this blog?

Anonymous said...

""It's not how I see you, but more about how you present yourself."

Amen.

If you follow Jon closely, as some of us have over many threads, one can start picking up on how he weaves ad hominem into every discussion.

He is the master of deflection and deception. He represents a lot of what passesfor "pastor" out there. The internet has been a blessing so we can see it firsthand.

Anonymous said...

Oh yes, one more thing. About that Hispanic family being baptized in Dallas.... No, that fact alone should not be remarkable. But the fact that there were 14 from one family baptized all at once--we'll that's a little unusual, don't you think? And we praise God.
You should, too.

Rastreator said...

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Anonymous said...

Oh yes, one more thing. About that Hispanic family being baptized in Dallas.... No, that fact alone should not be remarkable. But the fact that there were 14 from one family baptized all at once--we'll that's a little unusual, don't you think? And we praise God.
You should, too.

June 2, 2011 8:04 AM

For sucking more gullible people into these temples of entertainment? For following mere men who are really charlatans?

Please tell me you are not believing in some sort of baptismal regeneration.

If these poor people were not discerning enough to see FBCDallas for what it is, I can only pray they read and study on their own to know the REAL Jesus Christ and to have some pure wisdom and discernment of the HOly Spirit.