"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Monday, April 28, 2008

Mac Brunson: Let God Vindicate

Mac Brunson is a very gifted preacher. He has it within him to be an outstanding Bible expositor. But as we saw once again this Sunday, when he feels the need to stretch or twist scriprute and make the sermons about him in a more or less indirect way, he gets into trouble.

This past Sunday Mac continued his series on what to do when the storms of life come upon us.

He was preaching through Acts 28, verses 1-6, the account of when Paul was shipwrecked and bitten by a viper and the natives thought him to be a murderer. He took this account, which was most definitely about how God had his hand of protection on Paul, and made it an example of how God's man can be "falsely accused", and that when we as Christians are falsely accused, we should follow Paul's example and let God vindicate us.

Listen for yourself here to this 3 minute clip: Mac Brunson on False Accusations

I'm totally unqualified to assess Mac's interpretation of scripture as I'm no Bible scholar, but this to me is such an obvious misuse of scripture that I'll take the burden on of having to state what so many were thinking during the sermon:

1. He starts off by stating "some of you are in a storm right now of being misunderstood by somebody. Some of you are wrapped up in a shipwreck of people who have prejudged you and assumed things about you and have attacked you unfairly and unjustly and un-Christlike." Most of us Mac aren't in that kind of storm - wait a minute, I think you may be on to something: you must mean those of us who you "prejudged" by your attacking our congregation as being "legalistic" and assuming everybody "has a list" and assuming we "don't seem to have a real relationship with Jesus Christ"....yes, I suppose we do understand that kind of storm. Seriously, I guess its possible for some of Mac's listeners to be in that situation, but it sounds too much like he's talking about himself. In fact he says just moments later: "Become a Baptist preacher and talk to me this time next week" so yes he does see this situation as applying to himself. To suggest that this scripture in Acts 26 is about people "prejudging God's people" is an incredible stretch. The natives weren't "prejudging" Paul they were reacting to the situation as best they knew. And if they were it most certainly doesn't apply to Mac's situation. No one prejudged Mac when he came - in a negative way anyways - we all prejudged him to be our loving pastor to come and lead us. We welcomed he and his family and there was no prejudging. The storm that Mac apparently feels himself to be in now is based on months and months of observing his own actions and people listening to his own words.

2. Then he continues: "What does Paul do? Defend himself? No. Cry out on his behalf? No. He knows God will vindicate him." I might add that Paul didn't either complain about emails and how hard his job is. The fact is the scripture is silent about what Paul did in response to the native's assumption that he was a murderer. He might very well have defended himself as he did at Lystra in Acts 14, but the scripture here is silent...perhaps because this is not what the scripture is teaching that we should not defend ourselves against false accusations - many commentators state that this event was a direct fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy in Mark 16:18 and Luke 10:19! Why does Mac feel the need to stretch scripture to say things that it does not say?

3. He then continues: "Know this brother or sister in Christ. You feel shipwrecked on the shore of being attacked? Let...God...fight...your....battles" (followed by silence and crickets chirping). It sure sounds like Mac is recommending that if we are attacked unfairly by ungodly people, that we should not defend ourselves. According to Mac we should do as Paul did in this situation (or may not have done - the scripture doesn't say - but maybe it does in the Greek) and remain silent and wait for God to vindicate. Mac is using a scripture that clearly is not meant to address Paul's reaction to the natives thinking he is a murderer, to draw a conclusion that the scripture wasn't intended to teach, and which conclusion is contrary to how the apostle Paul generally handled situations where he was falsely accused!! Read Paul's defense of himself just two chapters earlier when he stood in front of King Agrippa. Paul actually said "King Agrippa, I consider myself fortunate to stand before you today as I make my defense against all the accusations of the Jews...." Then later when Agrippa calls him insane, Paul says "I am not insane, most excellent Festus". Mac perhaps you should follow Paul's example there! So if Mac desires to teach his congregation how to respond to false attacks using Paul as our example, I think it reasonable to use Paul's defenses of himself in other areas of Acts rather than one instance where he was bitten by a viper and accused of being a murderer by frightened natives. In fact everyone sitting in the service has probably been falsely accused, or attacked at some point. How should we react? Just clam up and let God handle it? I think most of us know that as we strive to live peaceably among men that we can and should give a defense of ourselves and we don't have to just wait idly by for God to vindicate. I would argue Mac is doing just the OPPOSITE of what a mature person in a leadership position would do. If a strong leader senses growing unrest among those he's charged to lead, the normal course of action is to address the questions and try to give an explanation. Leaders most certainly should NOT complain to those they are leading about how tough their job is each week, telling people they should haver THEIR job for a week, etc. etc. So Mac either speak up and defend yourself, or take your own advice and clam up and let God vindicate you over time - but for heaven's sake enough of the complaining about how hard you have it.

4. The Spurgeon story about the eggs - Mac is drawing an analogy between the heat Spurgeon received for not giving his eggs away, and the heat Mac is getting for nepotism, high salaries, living large in a million dollar home, receiving a $300,000 gift and other abuses. I have no doubt that Mac is a generous man, but whether he is or is not really is not the issue so using this Spurgeon story to deflect the criticism he has received is really sad. As Spurgeon once said: "Our gifts are not to be measured by the amount we contribute, but by the surplus kept in our own hands. The two mites of the widow were, in Christ's eyes, worth more than all the other money cast into the treasury..."

Mac - please stick to preaching the Word, and let the Holy Spirit do His work. You don't need to make the Bible say something it was not intended to say, to give poor advice to people on how to handle attacks, while justifying your own poor decisions.

50 comments:

Anonymous said...

I see nothing on this blog but the same old accusations over & over & over & over again. Its old and has become quite silly to be honest. I dont have a $300,000 dollar house...nor do I care, that our pastor does. That has no determination on my walk with Christ. So what if the Pastor has money? I used to be a very big supporter of this blog...but honestly, God has done something in me. The pastor was right...God will fight the battles of those who serve Him, and whether you agree with Dr. Brunson or not, it makes no difference...the man does have a solid faith and every week he gives his all to preach the grace giving gospel of Jesus Christ. I dont know about about any one else...but God will fight Mac Brunson's battles & I for sure dont want to be on the losing side.
Like I said, I used to be a big supporter of this blog & what it had to say...but I cant support this anymore. I stood up in vote for Mac when he first came here...I VOTED FOR HIM...whether I agree with everything or not, I can no longer criticize the man God laid on my heart to vote for. I realized recently that during the service, the time when I am to fellowship in unity with my brothers & sisters in Christ, that I was spending my time planning out what I would say against our pastor, rather than hearing what God had to say to me in the sermon...I was essentially putting my thoughts & cares above what God was trying to say and that, dear brothers, is very wrong to do.
Money...it seems to be the fuel behind this blog. The pastor makes this much, has a house that costs this much, pays fellow family workers this much, doesnt give enough to this project, cut budget by this much, doesnt keep his promises because it would cost too much, is a hypocrite to talk about tithing because he has this much...Im there every Sunday & Wednesday, I hear what he says & I see the passion he says everything with. He believes the Word & preaches what he believes, so I say he deserves all he has. The creators of this blog dont know every detail to every issue they raise...so how can you criticize what you dont know? The church needs less critics & more contributors and the Pastor has contributed greatly to this church & its cause to further the gospel. You ask for answers...ive heard him address several issues raised on this site & his answers were sufficient for me, someone who has supported this blog nearly from the beginning...but no more.
Less critics & more contributors! God cant move when those who call themselves constantly question every movement...and I know this blog all too well & can say with full assurance, every move made at the church is questioned...its just wrong.
Less critics & more contributors...and you can contribute nothing but criticism on this blog. This blog does not inform, it accuses with out full knowledge of what is being accused...its name calling of a man who the church voted to be here. Essentially, by criticizing the man God has put here, you criticize Gods wisdom...that is the truth. Criticize me if you will...good, I hope you do. I am on the pastors side, Gods man, & I want to be criticized for moving forward, not criticizing those who are too weak, afraid, upset, offended or spiritually deaf to be able too.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 4:09 - you are saying some things I agree with, but other things that aren't true.

I agree, the size of the pastor's house has no bearing on my walk with Christ, nor should it yours. But to point out that the pastor accepted a $300,000 "gift" from one of the church donors just 2 weeks after arriving in Jax and asking for an explanation doesn't mean its affecting my walk with Christ.

I agree that Dr. Brunson has a "solid faith and every week he gives his all to preach the grace giving gospel of Jesus Christ". But he still is accountable to his congregation as well as God.

Yep, I voted for him. And I supported him fully in all he wanted to do and was willing to accept change under his leadership as I've stated numerous times. Voting for a man when he comes doesn't mean we ignore the abuses he makes when he gets here.

"Money is the fuel of this blog"...well, money is part of the issues raised here yes...

Your statement: "Im there every Sunday & Wednesday, I hear what he says & I see the passion he says everything with. He believes the Word & preaches what he believes, so I say he deserves all he has." is a bit odd. No question he is passionate, and yes he preaches what he believes, but to extend that to say "he deserves all he has" is quite odd. I don't think being passionate and sincere means one is "deserving everything he has".

Anonymous said...

To 4:09 AM

AMEN

Anonymous said...

WD, are we to assume that there is only ONE lesson to learn from a passage of scripture? Sure, there is the lesson of God's protection on Paul, but don't you also see that Paul was in fact falsely accussed??

Verse 2 says that Paul was treated with "unusual kindness" by the natives, but a short time later was being accussed a murderer. Mac Brunson was also treated with unusual kindness when he came to FBC, and now he too is being falsely accused. I won't re-type the list -- it's on here enough.

WD, you should change your name to FBCViper...

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 10:31 - sure, there can be multiple lessons learned from scripture. Why do you ask?

I am pointing out that it is an incredible stretch to say that this scripture is an example of how we are to react when we are attacked. This scripture says nothing or implies nothing about Paul's reaction. So for Mac to take from this scripture that people when falsely attacked should, like Paul in this situation, not defend themselves but let God handle it is just wrong...but it was helpful to Mac to justify HIS actions of not defending himself, so he went ahead and used it.

And Mac was never prejudged. Yes, there was a sequence: Mac arrives, Mac is loved and supported, then later the support for Mac wanes, and now he is in a "storm". But to apply this story of Paul landing on shore, treated kindly by natives, then natives seeing a vipor bite and thinking him to be a murderer - to Mac's time at Jax...sorry, other than a scant similarity in sequence of events, I don't see how it applies.

Sorry that me using my brain to examine what Mac is saying against what the scripture says is so disturbing to you.

Best regards,

WatchVipor

Anonymous said...

If your going to use your brain, then get the facts of your allegations straight. But then you would have to talk face to face. So, nevermind. Keep blogging.

Anonymous said...

As an FBC Dallas member I can tell you that your pastor will put up with this "storm" as long as he wants to and then the powers-that-be will help him land somewhere else, just like they did for him when he was in Big D. But get used to these "attack" sermons because you'll be hearing them a lot.

Robert L. Peeples said...

Anon 4:09am,

AMEN!!!

As Tim Rogers would say: "That's a good word."

Robert L. Peeples said...

Anon 4:09am,

AMEN!!!

As Tim Rogers would say: "That's a good word."

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Welcome back Robert! I knew you were still an avid reader of WD.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog:

In regard to your comment of not being qualified to interpret God's Word, I must differ.

As a saved believer in Christ, you ARE qualified to interpret God's Word. As believers we have the Holy Spirit within us that gives us guidance in God's Word. If God did not intend for us to interpret what He says in His Word, He would not have given us a Bible.

As christians we have what is called a position known as "the priesthood of the believer". We are most definitely qualified through spiritual discernment to judge truth and error when we hear it.

We do not hand over our God given position as believers that discern God's Word to someone else.

Eph 4:14..."That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine".

II Tim 2:15..."Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth".

Anonymous said...

Bellevue in Memphis is a big mess right now. Be careful! Your pastor may be pricing luxury lofts on Beale Street as we speak! He'll need somewhere to live while his estate in Cordova is being constructed.

Anonymous said...

"Disunity" is what Rick Warren calls the problem within the church. The bible nowhere talks about getting rid of fellow believers that have disagreements or legitimate questions, but it only speaks concerning "heritics" after the second admonision.

Heritics are not SAVED. Therefore, christians are not to be treated like heritics just because we ask questions that are unpopular to the pastor or anyone else.

Anonymous said...

Amos 3:3
Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?

Anonymous said...

John 7:17

"If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

God has a place for all believers. HE does not speak to the preacher alone. We are not to fold our hands, bow our heads, and be led about by a man that thinks he doesn't answer to any earthly forum. Especially, when the concerns are legitimate. Some preachers appear to think that church members are so dumb and stupid, that God couldn't possibly give any wisdom unless it comes from the omniscient preacher that exalts himself above his fellow believers.

Christ died on the Cross for every man, parishoners and pastors alike.

Anonymous said...

In response to Anon 4:09

I have to admit, I too have read this blog closely, kept up with every post and supported the alleged "information" presented here. However, whoever posted the first comment, really got me to thinking about myself and my walk with Christ...I haven't had a walk with Christ for a long time now, because I have been too busy supporting a grudge of somebody else. I have spent more time reading a blog than I have spent reading the words of God.
I stand with you Anon 4:09 and will pick up, turn myself around & start focusing on God rather than a blog. This will be my last post and my last visit to the blog.

Watchdog, you're losing a big supporter, and apparently you lost another one a few days ago. We're tired of listening to you rant and rave about issues you dont know everything about. I dont know all the answers, neither am I called to know every detail. Mac Brunson, whether I agree or not, is my pastor and from this second forth, I will support him.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anons - that's great, but I'm not looking for "supporters". Glad you are now able to support your pastor. Good luck to you.

Anonymous said...

Well, I probably wouldn't say that no one there pre-judged Mac. Many of you had a HUGE opportunity to do just that, since so many First Dallas people have told you how HORRIBLE Mac is. The plain truth is, most of us at First Dallas LOVED Mac and HATED to see him leave. And I think about the rich and powerful at First Dallas who threatened to "ruin his ministry" if he left before the new building was paid off. All those thoughts run through my head as I read this blog. I still LOVE Mac, subscribe to his podcast and watch live services there when I'm not at my own church.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:19 PM doesn't speak for all First Dallas members. There were huge numbers who loved Mac and still miss him greatly. I count myself among those. I subscribe to Mac's podcast and watch the internet broadcasts when I'm not at my own church.

As to pre-judging Mac, many of you certainly had enough opportunity to pre-judge since some of the First Dallas people were fueling your fire. He had detractors in Dallas (the old Criswell followers who can't seem to come to grips with the fact that he's dead), but I don't believe they were as large in number as some would have us think. There were rumors before Mac left that wealthy, powerful people in the church were planning to "ruin his ministry" if he left before the new building was paid off. Those are the same "Criswell-ites" who wanted so badly for him to leave. It makes we wonder if your Mac-bashing mania is being fueled by Dallas people.

Anonymous said...

This beloved pastor left us (FBC Dallas) with very close to ten million ($10,000,000.00)of indebtedness that was acquired to help fulfill his "long-term" ministry goals at FBCD. I hardly consider his tenure long-term and I doubt he'll stay in Jacksonville much longer than he graced Big D. I have no respect for the man.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog, Instead of accusing Mac of avoiding the issues, why do you avoid issues raised here? Such as the answers Mac HAS given from the pulpit? Such as his lack of knowledge to his salary before he accepted the position, the fact that he tithes, not just to FBC Jax but kept his pledge to the building project in Dallas even after moving churches and as for his "gift" of land, why is that the box you like to stand on and scream from? Where in the Bible does it say gifts cant be given and received? Does it not say that every "good and perfect gift is given from the Father"? Just because God blessed Mac with land doesn't mean anything other than God blessed Mac with land. Why do you avoid the evidence given that shows Mac kept his promise to Rev. Jones, which was posted under another shout from you? Why do you avoid the fact that Rev. Carr & Rodney Brooks BOTH stood in the pulpit and declared that they were leaving due to Gods call and NOT because of the pastor? As for Rev. Barton & Doug Pigg...Barton came to the pastor and told him he wasn't in the position that God had gifted him for and Doug Pigg was lying to the Pastor and staff, and keeping budget information and figures from committees. However, the Pastor gave BOTH of them 6 months pay, helped them with resumes and got them several contacts for further ministry. You left all that out of your posts. Why?
Finally, you ask several times for Mac to take responsibility and address these issues, yet he has made it very clear that he doesn't respond to Anonymous letters, requests or emails. If you expect him to be straight up, why can't you be straight up by naming yourself? Are you not being hypocritical by telling one to address the issues, and yet, you avoid issues and evidence given that tears your accusations apart?
You may say you dont need "supporters", yet ive seen you comment how many hits you have a day on this site...you may have a million hits a day, but ya know what...VOTE DOESN'T EQUAL TRUTH. Im not saying "hey everyone, rally behind Mac!"...no, but I am saying that ive read your posts...some amusing, some way out in left field, some that don't make sense, and some that are vulgar no matter how you look at it, as in the post where the pastor is called a "Pompous Ass".
Lets be real Watchdog, like I've seen some post on here, you don't know every detail to every thing you make an accusation about. Therefore, logically, you cant accuse, and if you do, its out of ignorance.
Some of you will get up in arms and say "are we to just sit back and let Mac do what he wants?!" or "we are to hold him accountable...blah blah blah". Doesn't the Bible say that as believers, we are accountable ONLY to God? Yes, I'm quite sure it does. No man is accountable to another man, that makes no sense because no man, but Christ, is perfect. The Bible also says that it is GOD who judges the heart and its intentions. I also recall a verse where Christ says "he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." Watchdog, how long have you been perfect? You cast a great many stones at Mac on this site:
You call Dr. Brunson a hypocrite...How long have you been perfect?
You say Dr. Brunson doesn't keep his word...How long have you been perfect?
You say Dr. Brunson twists scripture...How long have you been perfect?
You say Dr. Brunson only wants to benefit the "A Team" or "Team Brunson"...How long have you been perfect?

Im not saying dont ask questions...by all means, ask all you want, but if you aren't concerned enough about the question you're asking to put your name to it, don't expect Dr. Brunson to take you seriously enough to give you an answer...however, when he has given answers, you avoid them.
Ask all the questions you want...just know that asking a question, means you DON'T have the answer....so don't make up one! Also, this blog is riddled with logical fallacies. You ask a question about the church, then turn right around to attack Dr. Brunson's character...that also shows ignorance.
(I use the word ignorance to refer to a lack of knowledge, not to infer stupidity)
So, to sum it up...Watchdog, you are showing fake concerns about the issues because you dont care enough to put your name to it...You show logical ignorance by not being able to state, argue or present your case due to the numerous logical fallacies you use, AND you show ignorance on the issues, because you have to give yourself your OWN answers (which are accusations) because you DONT know every detail of the situations you post. Also, you just simply avoid the evidence given to answer your questions & refute your accusations, and you take Gods work of judging into your own hands. Yes, you do judge...this whole site is a judging on Mac's actions, words and character, because you call him names, put down certain family members, make him out to be a liar and profiteer.

Micah Stapp...
See, I can put my name to what i say.

Anonymous said...

To Anon 5:39 PM

Clearly, you have no clue what you are talking about. I was at FBD before Dr. Mac came, and im still at FBD now. When Dr. Mac came to the church, we were over 6 million dollars in debt, and had been for close to 10 years. Within 7 months of Dr. Mac coming to FBD, we had the debt paid off, and the following year, we were the only church in the SBC to give 1 million dollars to Lottie Moon. The man brought us out of a ten year debt, and took us, by Gods direction, to being the biggest giving, towards missions, church in all of the SBC. You can argue against alot of things, but facts aren't one of em.
As for the debt that the church was in when Pastor left for FBCJax, it wasn't at all. It was money that had been pledged to the building, but not yet received by the church yet. Dr. Mac paid for half of the building in cash, and ONLY when we had the cash, and the rest of it was pledged over so many years. Now if im not mistaken, and im not, FBD was still receiving money from the Brunsons AFTER they left FBD, because they were keeping to their pledge.
All of this is fact

Anonymous said...

To Anon 6:58:

I would hope he would fulfill his pledge since the debt was his own creation! FBCJ was a bigger venue and better money and your beloved Mac took the money and ran! Plain and simple! I, for one, do not miss him.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog - it seems you have suddenly been getting some posts today from either family members of Dr. Brunson, or some close staff and/or family friends. They seem to act like they know many "facts" about him and the situation in Dallas, yet they don't want to give their names.

Who is Micah Stapp anyway, and why is he/she weighing in?

Can't these people understand that the pastor has exhibited poor leadership and done several things that call into question his motives, integrity and ability to lead this congregation as he COULD have done had he approached things differently? Like waiting to remodel the luxury suites until you had been here for a few days. Or like not living out on Amelia Island on the beach for a year when you first came. What message does that send. And promoting your son's wedding reception on Sunday School cards and having a reception for him when no one here even knew him. And promoting Holy Land trips, and adding the wife and son to the full time salary, and changing by-laws and running off ALL the staff (except for the lay leadership who are now on staff)and refusing to respond to some members who requested to correspond anonymously, and bad mouthing us to Dr. Patterson and to Dr. Vines and to pastors in North Carolina?

Am I missing something? Why suddenly so many posts from a few who seem to have blind loyalty to the man, and ironically two of which actually claim to be past "supporters" of your blog. My spirit says some of these bloggers are not being truthful.

Keep on keeping on WD. Hundreds of people know the truth now about Team B and what they have done. Just because his supporters can "spin" everything to say it is not illegal, or it none of your business, does not mean it is right for the pastor to be doing. They sound like politicians spinning thier BS to their fanatical supporters.

solomon said...

Anonymous said...

Bellevue in Memphis is a big mess right now. Be careful! Your pastor may be pricing luxury lofts on Beale Street as we speak! He'll need somewhere to live while his estate in Cordova is being constructed.

April 29, 2008 1:00 PM


I'm afraid you've been given misleading information, friend. The 'mess' at Bellevue has been blown out of proportion. You shouldn't believe everything you read, especially from an unreliable source that will say whatever makes them feel good.

The problems we've gone through were largely due to gossip and slander from anonymous (and therefore powerless) people who have a personal vendetta. Fortunately they've now turned their attention away from complaining about everything our pastor does and says to rebellion against authority figures in general. The church has been rather peaceful lately.

FWIW, the pastor lives in Cordova and is not building a house there. He purchased some land at a fair market price, but there's no law against that. And although I haven't checked lately, I don't recall any "luxury lofts" on Beale Street.

Whoever you are, "anon", wishing for our church to be a mess doesn't make it one. And that's a terrible thing to wish for.

Keith Solomon
A Bellevue Member

Robert L. Peeples said...

Micah Stapp,


AMEN!!! and AMEN!!!


There is some good preaching on this blog lately!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I agree. I don't mind people from Dallas defending Mac, but I don't see what relevance it has on his situation here. This blog is not about what he did or did not do in Dallas.

Its about the abuses here at Jax. The actions he has taken the first two years, the words he has spoken the first two years, are what this blog is about. And as someone said a few weeks ago, its so sad that he thinks he can come to a church and make the decisions he did and NOT expect for people to question his motives. Sure, go ahead and accept the $300k gift 2 weeks after wheels touch down in Jax. Sure, go ahead and build the million dollar home. Sure, put your wife and son on staff without telling your congregation what their ministry responsibilities are. Go ahead and live on Amelia Island rent free in a multi-million dollar condo the first year. Absolutely change the bylaws so that as few people know about the changes as possible. Go ahead and have Dr. Patterson blast our church as having recalcitrants attack you since you came. Tell us that a school is necessary to reach our city because no one is home. Hold an unannounced business meeting without perhaps the necessary quorum present to take 1/2 million dollars from our church to the school. By all means travel on our nickel to North Carolina to preach to pastors there and arrogantly proclaim you're in a "hotbed of legalism" down in Jax without explaining whether you meand "Jax" or "FBC Jax". Go ahead and DO ALL THOSE THINGS Mac Brunson....but to think for a minute that you would do them and that a significant number of well-meaning Christians will not be scratching their heads and question your motives is just plain nuts. Its crazy for you to do those things and the whine and complain in your pulpit about how misunderstood you are, and compare your situation to Spurgeon.

So go ahead all you Dallas people. Defend Mac, attack Mac it doesn't much matter now - you have your new pastor and we have Mac Brunson. What matters is what he has done since April 2006 at FBC Jax and what this means for the future of our church.

And all of you Jacksonville folks who seem to want to express that you're no longer a "supporter of the watchdog" and have switched over to Brunson...the Watchdog has no "supporters" nor does he want any supporters or followers. But if you were critical of Mac two weeks ago, I have to wonder what you've seen or heard that would make you change your mind all of a sudden, so I do doubt the sincerity of those saying they've crossed over and will NOW support Mac. But I'll let the posts through anyways.

Special message to the Anon 4:00 am poster this morning: something tells me you know some inside information on the land deal and other related items. We welcome your input here if you have it...all anonymous of course. ;)

Anonymous said...

Excuse me, but to answer questions:
My name is Micah Stapp and I have attended FBCJax for 6 years. Why do I give my input? Well, im just as much a member of the church as those who question me, and yes, I am loyal to the Pastor.
It makes me laugh to see posts of some who come on here and, as I said in my last post, take Gods job of judging into their own hands...thats a fine line to walk gentlemen. However, just as I suspected, I am questioned and the issues I raised were, once again, avoided. I dont know who the two Anons were that once supported this blog, nor the other who some assume are possible members of the Brunson family or staff or friends, however, whoever they are, it seems they, along with myself, are causing quite a stir on here. Thats not the point...at least I can say for myself, my purpose is to cause nothing, just simply ask questions....like the creator of this blog.
I would like to once again issue the challenge to address the issues at hand. Watchdog, why is it you avoid the answers given by the Pastor, that have seemingly, sufficed for many who supported this blog...why not you? Why do you avoid the fact that those who, once on staff and now gone, announced in the pulpit that their leaving was due to Gods calling and NOT because of the Pastor, and for the other two, one left voluntarily and the other, clearly had to be let go? Why do you avoid these issues? Why do you avoid the evidence given that shows the Pastor kept his word to Rev. Jones? Why do you avoid the issue of the fact that the pastor had no prior knowledge to his salary until AFTER he accepted the call? As for the "gift" of land and his stay on Amelia Island, why do you avoid the fact that the Pastor has openly announced that his land, was simply a gift...he didnt ask for it, nor did he seek it, but it was a gift. If you can show me where the Bible speaks against giving and receiving gifts, ill retract my statement, but you wont find it. Now, the stay on the Island, why do you avoid the fact that the Pastor has openly announced that someone in the church, allowed the Pastor and his family to live in their house while the Pastors house was being built? Furthermore, why is that any concern of yours to begin with? It shows no abuse to accept gifts from gracious church members. His office suite...this I know nothing about. I do know that the pastor had to have an office and Dr. Vines' old office was renovated for new staff, and the plans for the office was voted on and approved by a committee at the church. Nothing the pastor does ever takes place without a voting committee agreeing its the best thing to do. So, shouldn't your accusations be against those the Pastor has to go to for approval?
Lastly, I once again touch on accusations, of subjects, that the creator of this blog does not know the full details of. You complain about the bylaw changes....once again, it had to be voted on and approved and furthermore, the Pastor has openly announced that he was approached with the idea to change the bylaws. See, you avoided that piece of information as well.
Watchdog, you avoid reality to push your agenda. Stop crying & moaning and answer these questions! YOU sir, stop avoiding the facts!

RM said...

I need your help here! I'm getting tired switching between this site, the anti-Bellevue site, and the Two Rivers Baptist Church site. Perhaps you guys could consider putting your blogs together since they all basically say the same thing.

Even though I think you are basically wrong in having these sites I also entertain the notion that perhaps you might be right--and if that's true, then someone needs to come and get your pastors out of your churches as soon as possible.

Just consider my suggestion...

Anonymous said...

Wow! This thread made it all the way to Bellevue in Memphis. Glad to hear that things are calming down at Bellevue because I always loved Dr. Rogers and enjoyed worshipping there when I was a seminary student. But hey. . .what does this post have to do with Bellevue? Let's stay on target here, people! And Keith Solomon, kudos to you for sticking up for your leadership and congregation, brother!

Anonymous said...

Micah - I was the anon who wondered who you were. My point was not to criticize you in any way. I was merely trying to point out that just because a person puts a name on their post, or doesn't put their name on it, it really doesn't effect the credibility of their post. There really is nothing gained by having your name on your comments, unless you are a staff member or someone that most people would know.

I like your spirit. You seem to have some questions that seem to require answers are asking them with conviction. I like that.

I would respectfully disagree with you on some of your statements, but so what. We can disagree here. :)

A few things in response however, since I believe your questions deserve some answers. Remember, I am NOT WD, so don't hold him to what I am responding to here. Thanks. I will type in CAPS my response to your questons.

Your wrote: My name is Micah Stapp and I have attended FBCJax for 6 years. (I DON'T KNOW YOU, AND REALLY YOUR POST DOES NOT NEED YOUR NAME ON IT) Why do I give my input? Well, im just as much a member of the church as those who question me, and yes, I am loyal to the Pastor. (WHAT IS THAT LOYALTY BASED ON? IS IT A BLIND, GULLIBLE SHEEP LOYALTY, OR IS IT BASED ON THE LEADERSHIP YOU HAVE SEEN THUS FAR?)
It makes me laugh to see posts of some who come on here and, as I said in my last post, take Gods job of judging into their own hands...thats a fine line to walk gentlemen. (I DON'T SEE WHY IT WOULD MAKE YOU LAUGH...ARE YOU EXAGGERATING THAT PART OF YOUR SENTENCE? I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE FOR ANY MAN TO TAKE GOD'S JOB OF JUDGING WOULD BE WALKING A FINE LINE. I AM NOT JUDGING YOU OR ANYONE. JUST POINTING OUT FACTS THAT I FIND NEED TO BE EXPLAINED IN ORDER FOR THIS NEW PREACHER TO LEAD THE CONGREGATION. READ ANY NUMBER OF LEADERSHIP PRINCIPLES AND YOU WILL FIND THAT MR. BRUNSON HAS BROKEN MANY OF THEM. However, just as I suspected, I am questioned and the issues I raised were, once again, avoided. NO ONE IS QUESTIONING YOU. AND I AM NOT AVOIDING THE ISSUES. I dont know who the two Anons were that once supported this blog, nor the other who some assume are possible members of the Brunson family or staff or friends, however, whoever they are, it seems they, along with myself, are causing quite a stir on here.(WHY DO YOU SAY THIS? IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU DO KNOW THEM. I SEE NO "STIR" HERE.) Thats not the point...at least I can say for myself, my purpose is to cause nothing, just simply ask questions....like the creator of this blog. (ASK AWAY, WE WILL TRY TO ANSWER THEM!)
I would like to once again issue the challenge to address the issues at hand. (OKAY, I WIL BE HAPPY TO...BUT YOU SHOULD READ THE EARLIER POSTS AND COMMENTS FROM OTHERS THAT DEAL DIRECTLY WITH WHAT YOU ARE ASKING.) Watchdog, why is it you avoid the answers given by the Pastor, that have seemingly, sufficed for many who supported this blog...why not you? (TWO THINGS - FIRST I DISAGREE THAT WD HAS AVOIDED ANY ANSWERS GIVEN BY THE PASTOR. SOME ISSUES HAVE BEEN PUT TO REST (HIS SALARY, FOR EXAMPLE, AND SECOND WHAT BASIS DO YOU HAVE FOR SAYING "...SUFFICED FOR MANY WHO SUPPORTED THIS BLOG?" THERE ARE NO "SUPPORTERS" OF THIS BLOG. JUST PEOPLE WHO READ AND COMMENT HERE. THIS IS NOT A HIGH SCHOOL CLIQUE OF "US AGAINST THEM." Why do you avoid the fact that those who, once on staff and now gone, announced in the pulpit that their leaving was due to Gods calling and NOT because of the Pastor, and for the other two, one left voluntarily and the other, clearly had to be let go? I THINK THEY WERE JUST SAYING WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY TO LEAVE GRACEFULLY. AND I WAS UNAWARE THAT ONE "HAD TO BE LET GO." Why do you avoid these issues? HOW HAVE WE AVOIDED THESE ISSUES? Why do you avoid the evidence given that shows the Pastor kept his word to Rev. Jones? WHAT EVIDENCE? REV JONES IS STILL IN A TENT WHY OUR PASTOR GOES ON A MED CRUISE AND CONTINUES TO BEG FOR MONEY FOR NATIONAL AIR TIME. Why do you avoid the issue of the fact that the pastor had no prior knowledge to his salary until AFTER he accepted the call? THIS MAY BE TRUE, BUT IF HE ALREADY KNEW HE WAS GETTING A FREE CONDO ON THE BEACH FOR A YEAR, AND A $307k PIECE OF LAND, THAN NOT KNOWING THE ACTUAL AMOUNT OF HIS SALARY IS NO BIG STEP OF FAITH. HE KNOWS HOW MEGA CHURCH PASTOR SALARIES ARE SET HAVING JUST COME FROM DALLAS. As for the "gift" of land and his stay on Amelia Island, why do you avoid the fact that the Pastor has openly announced that his land, was simply a gift...he didnt ask for it, nor did he seek it, but it was a gift.HE NEVER SAID THE LAND WAS A GIFT!!!!! AS FOR THE CONDO, THE ONLY PROBLEM I HAVE WITH IT IS THAT IT SHOWED ME THE LACK OF COMMITMENT TO GET INVOLVED WITH THE CITY AND THE PEOPLE. AMELIA ISLAND IS A SECLUDED ISLAND ABOUT AN HOUR FROM THE CHURCH. THAT, ALONG WITH THE OTHER THINGS, MAKES YOU WONDER ABOUT HIS COMMITMENT LEVEL. If you can show me where the Bible speaks against giving and receiving gifts, ill retract my statement, but you wont find it. THE BIBLE SAYS TO AVOID EVEN THE APPEARANCE OF EVIL AND IT SAYS NOT TO CAUSE A WEAKER BROTHER TO STUMBLE. MANY IN THIS CHURCH AND IN THIS CITY ALREADY BELIEVE THE CHURCH IS A BUNCH OF RICH SNOBS AND BUSINESS PEOPLE WHO ATTEND FOR SOCIAL REASONS. SOME BELIEVE THE PASTORS ARE CHARLATANS. BY ACCEPTING SUCH HUGE GIFTS, IT GIVES PEOPLE EVIDENCE THAT THIS NEW PASTOR ALSO IS HERE FOR THE MONEY AND RICHES. EVEN IF NOT TRUE, IT LOOKS BAD. JUST LIKE DRIVING A JAGUAR DOES TO SOME PEOPLE. Now, the stay on the Island, why do you avoid the fact that the Pastor has openly announced that someone in the church, allowed the Pastor and his family to live in their house while the Pastors house was being built? I DEALT WITH THIS ABOVE. Furthermore, why is that any concern of yours to begin with? AS STATED ABOVE, IT MAKES YOU WONDER WHAT HIS COMMITMENT LEVEL TO THE FLOCK IS WHEN HE SPENDS A YEAR ON THE EXCLUSIVE AMELIA ISLAND FOR A YEAR WHEN HE SHOULD BE LIVING AND WORKING WITH HIS NEW CONGREGATION TO EARN THEIR TRUST. It shows no abuse to accept gifts from gracious church members. IT DOES WHEN THEY ARE WORTH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS AND ARE ACCEPTED BEFORE HE HAD EVEN BEEN HERE FOR 2 WEEKS! His office suite...this I know nothing about. I do know that the pastor had to have an office and Dr. Vines' old office was renovated for new staff, HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS. I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT BEFORE? and the plans for the office was voted on and approved by a committee at the church. HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? WHO WAS ON THAT COMMITTEE? WAS IT PART OF THE "CALL" THAT HE COULD TAKE THE CHILDREN'S CONFERENCE ROOM FOR HIMSELF? COULD ANYONE HAVE SAID "NO" AND STILL KEPT THEIR JOB? Nothing the pastor does ever takes place without a voting committee agreeing its the best thing to do. IF THIS IS TRUE, DOESN'T IT LOSE ITS INTENDED SAFEGUARDS IF THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS ARE ALL YES MEN HAND PIKCED BY THE PASTOR? So, shouldn't your accusations be against those the Pastor has to go to for approval? WE AGREE ON THIS 100%. YES! YES! YES!
Lastly, I once again touch on accusations, of subjects, that the creator of this blog does not know the full details of. I AGREE, WE NEED MORE DETAILS. PLEASE GIVE US SOME THAT WE CAN VERIFY! You complain about the bylaw changes....once again, it had to be voted on and approved and furthermore, the Pastor has openly announced that he was approached with the idea to change the bylaws. WHEN DID HE SAY THIS AND WHY WAS IT NECESSARY TO HAVE TO CHECK THEM OUT TO SEE THEM AND WHY COULD THEY NOT LEAVE THE LIBRARY. See, you avoided that piece of information as well. NOT AVOIDING IT AT ALL.
Watchdog, you avoid reality to push your agenda.WHAT IS MY AGENDA? TO HOLD THIS NEW LEADER ACCOUNTABLE SINCE SO FAR IT LOOKS LIKE HE IS BUILDING HIS FAMILY "BRAND" AND WEALTH AT THE EXPENSE OF A GREAT CHURCH. Stop crying & moaning and answer these questions!I HAVE NEVER CRIED OR MOANED, BUT MANY WHO READ THIS BLOG SURE SEEM TO. YOU sir, stop avoiding the facts! OKAY.

Anonymous said...

April 29, anon 4:09 a.m. - you stated, repeatedly, I might add:

"The church needs less critics & more contributors."

Are you Mac Brunson? Or at least one of the team? Because wouldn't that be great for Team Brunson? Or if you reworded it slightly you could say it this way: "The church needs less people holding us accountable and more people blindly giving us their money!"

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Micah - not avoiding anything sir.
I'll address everyone one of your questions:

Why do you avoid the fact that those who, once on staff and now gone, announced in the pulpit that their leaving was due to Gods calling and NOT because of the Pastor, and for the other two, one left voluntarily and the other, clearly had to be let go?

Come on now Micah. What these men said publicly absolutely doesn't carry any weight in assessing root causes for their departure. Do you know what it means to be "gracious" when speaking in public about events that have overtaken you? I know facts contrary to what you are saying about the departures of our staff members, but unlike you I won't drag our former minister's name through the mud like you did with Doug Pigg. Shame on you for saying what you did about Doug Pigg.


Why do you avoid the issue of the fact that the pastor had no prior knowledge to his salary until AFTER he accepted the call?

Straw man. This was never an issue, whether he knew his salary or did not know his salary. What WAS questioned and remains unanswered is DID MAC AND/OR DEBBIE BRUNSON KNOW OF THE LAND GIFT AND FREE CONDO USE BEFORE SAYING YES? You can do better Micah.

As for the "gift" of land and his stay on Amelia Island, why do you avoid the fact that the Pastor has openly announced that his land, was simply a gift...he didnt ask for it, nor did he seek it, but it was a gift.

Another straw man. I know you Micah, and you're better than this. I challenge you to tell the people on this blog when Mac Brunson has ever, one single solitary time, addressed the land gift to his congregation. I'll wait for your response. I do acknowledge that he told the church that he was staying at a "condo" on the beach. This has not been an issue. But you are falsely accusing me of making his public admission of this an issue, when it never was. The condo stay has been brought up mostly in response to Paige Patterson claiming that he was not given a honeymoon by our church, when in fact the man stayed at a condo rent free. Mac's complaining and whining rang hollow that first year when we knew he was living large in a multi-million dollar condo on the beach.

If you can show me where the Bible speaks against giving and receiving gifts, ill retract my statement, but you wont find it.

I'm so sick of this argument, "show me where in the bible a man can't accept gifts." Get your head out of the sand Michah! The man accepted a $300,000 gift from a donor of our church. Not in exchange for years of faithful service, or because Mac was a faithful minister for years. This giving "gifts" to ministers by the congregants rather than to the 501(c)3 for which he works - is precisely the kinds of actions that Senator Grassley is investigating televangelists over. Maybe you can help me...did Mac know the giver of this gift? On what basis can this be considered a gift for "love and affection"? Who on the search committee knew of this gift? Who told Mac about the gift and when did they tell him?

It shows no abuse to accept gifts from gracious church members.

Would you please tell Senator Grassley that sir?

His office suite...this I know nothing about. I do know that the pastor had to have an office and Dr. Vines' old office was renovated for new staff, and the plans for the office was voted on and approved by a committee at the church.

Great! What committee approved it? Can you tell us how much was spent on that office suite? So Dr. Vine's office was renovated for other staff members? That's news to me.

the Pastor has openly announced that he was approached with the idea to change the bylaws.

What are you talking about? When did the pastor ever say he was approached with the idea to change the bylaws? And what WERE the changes to the bylaws? We know they were in no way mere administrative changes, because they included the addition of a discipline committee, among other significant changes. And whether they were his "idea" or not, does he not have the responsibility of making sure his sheep understand what they changes are and why they are made?

Nothing the pastor does ever takes place without a voting committee agreeing its the best thing to do. So, shouldn't your accusations be against those the Pastor has to go to for approval?

Really? I'll take your word for that. Maybe you can answer these questions then: 1. What committe and who was the chairman that approved the "Time to Stand for Israel"? 2. What committee approved the 1/2 million dollar loan? 3. What committee approved the bylaw changes and the method by which they were voted on?
4. What committee approved the making and airing of the 5 minute professionally made commercial for the relatives of the man who donated the $300,000 land gift? The short answer is this: we all know that in our church the pastor rules, and everyone goes along with the pastor. This is exactly the reason we are in the pickle we're in - we need some people to stand up to the pastor.

How's that Micah? Anymore questions? Bring 'em on.

Anonymous said...

Awesome, now were getting somewhere. I appreciate the responses by Anon and by Watchdog. My hopes were to get you to address things that are important.
My responses:
As for the committee's, I don't know who was on the committee. My best guess would be the deacons (sorry for the word committee if it wasn't one directly). I would say the deacons voted, and how do I know it was everything has been voted on? Honestly, let me use humor, we all are Baptists and nothing happens without a vote in the Baptist church. Besides that, it is a duty of the deacon to make sure things run smoothly, and they do have the authority to overrule something the pastor brings to the table if they so disagree.

As to the post shaming me for what I said about Doug Pigg...Whether you like it or not sir, he was fired for lying and keeping budget information and other information a secret. It makes no difference if you agree or not, that is the truth. Sorry that upsets you.
Now, the others that left...I understand that some men would say certain to keep face and leave gracefully, however, you must realize that to say the men who left said what they said simply to leave gracefully isn't an assumption you can make. Why? Simply because they didn't say it, nor have they said it. What they said to the church upon departure must be taken at face value until they come out and say something different, other wise, you're making assumptions to back up your own argument. You have no proof that they meant anything other than what they said.

Next, I dont know if the Pastor had prior knowledge of his land "gift", then again, neither does anyone on this blog, so you cant accuse him of things you dont know the whole truth about.

For Rev. Jones, I cant explain why they're still in a tent, if in fact they are. All I know is that the Pastor donated several items to the church to help rebuild such as equipment, lumber, workers and money. You can ask several of the Sunday School teachers about this because most of the workers were straight from the classes. I believe, by evidence shown, that the Pastor did everything he could for Rev. Jones short of buying him a new church, would be an unreasonable expectation to hold him too.

I disagree with whoever said that a name doesn't need to be added to a post. Why say something if you cant put your name to it? Take responsibility for all you do and say!

Anon also said that it was wrong for the Pastor to do certain things because it "gives the appearance of evil" and that is wrong of him to do. I know the verse and hold to it strongly, however, I turn that on you sir...This blog has in past posts called the Pastor names, vulgar names, attacks his character and motives and it also makes accusations that are not proven facts, but someone's idea's. You tell me, does name calling and unproven accusations, personal attacks and questioned motives based off of unproven accusations give off the appearance of evil? Yes...it most certainly does.

Once again, I want to thank Anon & Watchdog for responding. I appreciate the time you took to address what ive had to say.

Micah

Anonymous said...

Micah, you are the man.

Notice how WD jus discredits your statements with "strawmen" responses? He presents no evidence he just simply calls your fact-based arguments "strawmen" or draws analogies from the world. I'm sure you do notice, you are intelligent and speak rationally.

You know, I spoke with Rev. Brooks personally weeks before his departure. He loved pastor Brunson. His parting words with the choir beautifully demonstrated God's hand in moving him to another church. Frankly, I loved Rodney, but was excited to see him follow God's leading.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - look up "strawman" before you criticize me for claiming his arguments are "strawman". I addressed his questions, and will answer any others.

I noticed Micah didn't address my return questions of him.

Anonymous said...

When i read this blog, I wonder what services you sat in Sunday. They never seem to be the same ones I was in. ??.

Anonymous said...

Sure, no problem.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position).[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]


And my statements stand.

Micah bases his statements in fact. You do not.

Go ahead and get upset if you like.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if the reason you want everyone to post anonymously, Watchdog, is because you write many of the posts yourself, making them up as you go along. The Bellevue Whiners Group at least requires everyone to put in a profile. You have published lies about FBC Dallas and its members, knowingly or not. And no, I am not a personal friend or family of Mac Brunson. I am no one of any importance to anyone but God. I am a friend of God. I read, study the Bible, and pray, doing the best I can to bring Glory to God. I am not perfect, none of us are perfect, including ministers. You constantly say that your blog does not effect others in their walk with Christ, and does not discourage others from being followers of Christ. What is there about fussing, fault finding, and whining Christians that is attractive to the world? The minute someone disagrees with you, or questions your Christian walk, you say you are being persecuted. That is not persecution by any definition. As one writer said, you have given us a glimpse within your heart through your writings. No one is trying to judge you, but the lack of the fruits of the Spirit have been made evident through your writings. You have turned a deaf ear to the very words of God that have been quoted by contributors on this blog, actually saying that the truth in the scriptures does not pertain to you, or has been mis-interpreted. It is time for you to face the truth and sort the truth from fiction. Satan will try to keep us all from the truth - it is his first method of attack - deceit. The truth is in the Bible. When someone does sign his name, he is immediately attacked and ridiculed. You do rehash the same old things over and over again. If there were any substance to your accusations, you would be able to openly confront the people you are accusing and bring about change. There is no perfect pastor, no perfect church, and there are no perfect members. When is the last time you have prayed for your pastor, your church, your staff, a person without Christ? Prayer brings about great change. God has the ability to control and change every situation when we go to Him in prayer. Trust Him with your problems. What are you doing in your church or in your life to glorify Christ? Are you just sitting in the pew grumbling? Have you read your Bible lately? How about a personal prayer time? Led anyone to Christ? How about witnessing to others? I have no idea what the answers to these questions are, as I do not know you, only your writings. I do not know anyone's heart but my own, but God knows each of us. I am not trying to accuse you or judge you. I am certainly no better than you or anyone else; I am a sinner saved by God's grace. I am praying for you, as are many others. I would love to see the joy of the Lord restored in your life so that all the world would know. You are a talented person who could be using your gifts to bring glory to our Lord for eternal good. Satan is playing games with you to distract you and others from the true message of Jesus and the ability to bring glory to Him in your deeds and actions. You are the only one who can examine your heart and your relationship with Christ; others can examine your actions, but you and God alone know your heart. One day we will all give an account for every word, every deed, and every action of our earthly lives to the Lord God Almighty. God, and God alone will be our judge. He loves each of us, but He is just and holy. Each of us should examine our heart on a daily basis and ask ourselves if our actions are pleasing to God and bring glory to His name. That is our purpose on earth - to glorify God in our lives. Ask God to direct your pastor and staff in the way in which they should lead your church. God has the power to do so. Look to Jesus - He is the perfect one.
Watchdog, I have been praying for you daily since you began this blog. God loves you and wants His children to experience the joy of their salvation and to be in fellowship with other believers.
I am anonymous as you wish.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - Micah was providing facts that I didn't dispute, and he has said at least one thing that I believe not to be true. He said that Mac has explained the land gift - I challenged him and I challenge anyone reading this to cite one example of when Mac has ever addressed the land gift with his congregation.

Not upset, just amazed.

Anonymous said...

Oh Watchdog, lets be real...I did address your issues just as you addressed mine. As for the straw man argument, that is perfectly fine....I commit a logical fallacy just as you have multiple times...
1. AD HOMINEM, by attacking the Pastors personal character by calling him hypocritical, a liar & a profiteer.
2-3. The RED HERRING and the BANDWAGON fallacies by bringing up issues of other churches and joining the ranks of those who blog against their pastor...
4. HASTY CONCLUSION by giving your own reasons for certain things happening when you know full well that you dont have all the details to the situations you bring up here on the blog.
5. The NATURALISTIC fallacy by moving from how things actually are to how they OUGHT to be. Such as how the Pastor has a house on land that was given to him, and how you claim he shouldn't in fact have the land because it is an "abuse".
6. The MORALISTIC fallacy by reversing, and going from how things OUGHT to be to how they are now. Such as how Dr. Vines lead the church and now Mac doesn't.
7. IRRELEVANT APPEALS that dont at all deal with any main issues but are just little feelings you have such as the Pastors stay on Amelia, or as another posted on here, the car that he drives. None of that has anything to do with the bylaws, the school or Rev. Jones & his church.
8. APPEAL TO ANTIQUITY by implying that the days of the church were better before Mac came to lead as Pastor.
9. WEAK ANALOGY by stating in your post that because Mac Brunson has qualities like Senator Grassley, he must be doing the same things as the Senator.
10. The FALLACIST'S FALLACY by discounting certain evidence given to you, such as with Rev. Jones or the very words of Rev. Carr and Rev. Brooks upon departure, simply because they don't support the idea's of this blog and because you cant understand the evidence given due to the fact that acknowledging them would disprove 99% of what this blog is proclaiming.

There, ten logical fallacies, by Watchdog, that he can not refute. Watchdog, no one wants you to stop writing and expressing yourself, but you pick at things to which you dont know the details too, and you give your own answers to the questions you ask and disregard certain evidence given. The arguments you give to back up your points are illogical, and ive proved it.

Micah

Anonymous said...

Why? would people on our staff for years and years, say God was calling them somewhere else?
Thats whats wrong with the people in the Church. They can"t SEE two feet in front of them.
I know everyone of the men that left, and they were told they would be replaced within a certain time frame, or would not be HAPPY with the NEW CHANGES COMING OUR WAY!
The BEST was SAVED for last. Rodney, Lewis Howard they knew what was going to happen. Rodney moved out the SMART WAY! Howard stayed till they PUSHED him out the DOOR!
LOOK people we have a NEW STAFF are you BLIND?
Choir, Middle School, High School, they have NO more Trips. Does anyone QUESTION WHY? Why have WE got in this MESS.
Can SOMEONE STAND UP FOR OUR CHURCH, PLEASE!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Hi Micah - very cute. Talk about avoiding the issues on this blog, you are king supreme at that. But that's OK.

Question for you: Since you have stated here twice that Doug Pigg was let go for cause and that he was a liar and had to be fired, could you please let us know how you know that? This is a personnel matter of the church, so can you explain what position you have in the church to know this? If you're not in a position in the church to know this, can you tell us who told you? What other personnel decisions should we know about? Does it help to defend Mac to let everyone know that Doug Pigg is a liar and had to be fired because he lied to the Pastor? How would you know he lied to the Pastor? Did the Pastor tell you that?

Anonymous said...

Micah, I love you.

Please give me a way to get ahold of you.....e-mail?

Anonymous said...

High schoolers not getting free ski trips is a mess?!?!?!

Anonymous said...

Can SOMEONE STAND UP FOR OUR CHURCH, PLEASE!

No! To do so would mean we would have to identify ourselves and we are not willing to do that. The price is to high. Remaining anonymous is to our benefit and that is more important right now than standing up for the church.

** To put it bluntly for like minded people who need to remain anonymous.

Anonymous said...

All of you are right in saying that whatever happened in Dallas has nothing to do with you there. And I read and remain silent except when someone says (or even infers) that everyone in Dallas hated Mac and wanted him to leave. The vast majority loved him and were saddened by his leaving. We've had better pastors (but not recently) but we've never had better preaching. If you don't want the Dallas folks to chime in, don't bash what happened when Mac was in Dallas or speak to how everyone there feels (felt). And NO, I am not a family member or close personal friend of the Brunsons.

Anonymous said...

I have posted this on a separate Post from Watchdog, but would also like to say it here as well:

My post of Doug Pigg was merely my assumptions from staff re-arrangement , talks of the budget and little things I hear as I walk through the church. I admit that when writing the posts, I was doing exactly what I accuse another of on here and that is stating an assumption as a fact. My apologies for that, but I will say now that what I said of Rev. Pigg could, and very well may not be true at all. In fact, I hope very strongly that what I said happened, is the farthest thing from the truth. Furthermore, I saw Rev. Pigg while he was at the church and he did a lot of great work and was loved by many.
Now, Watchdog has posted several of my comments as a new Post on the main page...mature? No, probably not, but, neither was my post of Rev. Pigg. I admit that and hope to set the record straight right now with this post. No, I have no inside information. I dont know anybody well enough on staff to talk to about these matters with. I am sure that at the church, confidentiality is taken very serious, so I say now that no staff member, no Brunson and no one close to either families, Pigg or Brunson, have said anything to me on this issue. Why even say this? Mainly because I want to make it understood that my posts are my own thoughts, opinions and assumptions, just as this blog is someone else's thoughts, opinions and assumptions.

Micah

Frustrated! said...

I want to address the "MESS" comment about the situation of some of the ministries. I'm just continually amazed at how much a "family" church requires families to sacrifice. We have two kids in the choirs there. Right now, rehersals are running us ragged! The one last Thursday was scheduled until 9:00 PM!! How are we supposed to keep to any kind of schedule or be rested for school/work? During FCAT week, they wanted us to cart them over and stay until late. We had to say no and I'm sure we were looked upon as "less than committed"! Give me a break! Shouldn't we care a liitle about our kids and their educations? Or, should we just get comfortable with the rest of them in the music dept and keep sipping the delicious Kool Aide!?

LET IT GO said...

Micah,

LET IT GO! You just keep beating the same dead horse. The actions of our pastor cannot be justified by you or anyone else. He has come to FBC to get whatever he can, collect as many paychecks as possible (his, his wife's, his son's) and then leave the mess for us to pick up. Just let him do it in peace while giving us a few (and I do mean a few) good sermons in the process.

Secrecy is how things function at FBC. You can't and don't know any more than anyone else. It's the culture of the place. When things do eventually blow up, we will need as many dedicated members as possible to help clean up the mess. Save your energy for then, ok?