"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Thursday, August 20, 2009

Fork it Over!

One thing churches and governments have in common: they can raise revenue just by asking people to fork it over.

That must be nice. "Hey, we need more dough. Would you please give us more?"

Here in Jacksonville, we're told by our Republican mayor that they must raise our taxes; they can't cut enough from the bloated city budget during these down economic times, so the answer is in our wallets. The sheriff can't keep the city safe, the city government can't provide needed services unless YOU give more money.

So fork it over. The City of Jacksonville needs more of your money.

General Motors - they were selling American cars at a premium price, earning billions in revenue, but they couldn't stay in business...unless YOU, the American people, give them money via the federal government. Those of you who opted not to buy GM as you have in years past because of their inflated prices and declining quality - the joke is on you, as you ended up giving them about as much money as you would have if you had bought one of their over-priced vehicles.

So fork it over. GM needs your money to stay in business so our economy doesn't collapse.

Now, mega churches like FBC Jacksonville, need more money. Mac Brunson says the church is "5% behind budget", and guess what the solution is: YOU NEED TO GIVE MORE! Yep, need to collect the classic "special love offering" on August 23rd to close the gap. Funny how the answer is NOT let's cut the salaries of the six-figure staff members. Its not cutting the advertising budget and communications and business budgets to close the gap. No cutting of the A-Group's budget or pay cut for Maurilio. Not encouraging the people who have signed up for the "Danube River Cruise with Mac and Debbie Brunson" to cancel their trip and give some of that money to the church.

Nope, the solution to the budget shortfall is found in the wallets of you FBC Jax sand-baggers - you've been holding back. According to Mac, most of you "giving units" aren't tithing, which according to him means you're all stealing from God anyways - so Mac and the leaders have a right to the money that you're holding back from God. Hopefully Mac's prayer was answered that you didn't get a raise, else you would have even less money to give.

So fork it over. God and FBC Jax need your money.

Mac needed "a million dollars in two weeks" last year when you WERE on budget....and now this year he needs almost that much from you during these difficult economic times. Money was found every week to pay inflated salaries, and to pay for TV commercials and media production and camera crews traveling to the Holy Land, and Mac and Deb traveling to Germany and for church marketing services. Gee, its hard to believe they're short on cash now.

Can't they just trust God to provide, and what they get is what God wanted them to get? Does God want them to get by with less? Could it be that God wants a 40% cut in salary for the men on staff earning six-figure salaries? Maybe God is saying "Enough of the TV commercials - my plan for evangelism is not using tithes to pay for producing TV commercials."

To make matters worse, to collect the money, and to entice you to give, they use a marketing gimmick.

They send a letter signed by Mac, the one making an enormous salary and benefit package from the offerings, asking for money along with a special love-offering envelope. They can't just announce: "Hey, we're a bit short, if you have some extra cash that you can stick in your offering, it would be great to make it up this next Sunday." Not good enough. Gotta use the special envelope sent to the 5000 "giving units" of the church. Next year maybe they can include a vial of annointing oil, or the 2-inch square prayer cloth. Its interesting to note the letter doesn't specify any specific actions taken to CUT the budget - like trimming salaries or reducing TV commercials or cutting staff members.

So this Sunday, please write two checks: one for your tithe, and if you would please, write a 2nd check, to put in the SPECIAL envelope we mailed you. One, larger check, isn't good enough. Need two checks. Which replica shall we drop our special offering in - the "chest", or in the "manger?

Special note to the wealthier members: if the Lord has put it on your heart to go minister in the name of Jesus while crusing in luxury sailing on the Danube with Mac and Debbie Brunson next spring, please set aside THAT money and don't give THAT to the church. That's an even "specialer" offering unto the Lord. There's another envelope for that offering, and that envelope and offering will go to Mac's travel agent in Dallas. Mmmm, ain't God good. That offering is due January 9, 2010, paid in full. Don't forget!

The plebe will give it. They always have. They always will...until they wise up. And maybe they will someday.

But in the mean time:

Fork it over.

"Fork ye over all the tithes into the storehouse, so that there may be meat (preferably prime rib) in mine house..."

108 comments:

Anonymous said...

Yes, folks will give. They are so gullible. They equate giving to Mac as giving to God. How sick is that?

Anonymous said...

One the things I remember from being in a church in a that was running behind budget is that we have reserves to cover it but we do not want to touch that. If you are running at a true defecit then cut what is not needed. If you just do not want to use your cushion then trust that God will replace it and use it. Also are they short on budget that was decided at the start of the year or have they overspent the budget and need more to makeup.

Pastor Chris

Anonymous said...

Last time I checked you are no longer a member at FBC, Jax so why don't you just butt out? Your constant harping on what they are doing or feel the Lord is leading them to do is pathetic. It would really be informative to know if you even tithed when you were a member.

Anonymous said...

FBCJ "Special Offering Letter's"

Last September 2008 (we) members of FBC were sent a letter saying $990,000 was needed immediately for 'immediate renovation' needs.

Now here in August 2009 (we)members of FBC once again receive another request for a "Special Offering" . . .to consider that our giving might convey to those watching FBC that we are serious about God's work, for the future of (our) wonderful fellowship.

"Fork It Over" was quite an interesting subject for today!

Anon 9:55am - not all members are so gullible!

Anonymous said...

Last time I checked you are no longer a member at FBC, Jax so why don't you just butt out? Your constant harping on what they are doing or feel the Lord is leading them to do is pathetic. It would really be informative to know if you even tithed when you were a member.

August 20, 2009 10:36 AM

You can do better than that. Give us a defense of this love offering and why there are no corresponding cuts mentioned.

We are really interested to know what is behind the devotion to Mac that folks are willing to continue to fork it over for him and his luxury lifestyle, consultants and exotic trips.

Just think of it as scientific research into the minds of cult followers.

Anonymous said...

I would say, Not one more penny until the books are open to all. With every single line item represented.

Love is also measured by how efficient, careful and frugal one is with God's resources.

Former FBC Insider said...

Tom, that's exactly what I felt when I read that ridiculous letter.
But you and I both know that Mac won't do any of the common sense suggestions that you've mentioned.
He will continue, full steam ahead with his badgering for more cash.

I still say he needs the extra cash for his upcoming legal defense fund. I'd like to see where he puts that line in the budget.

Anon August 20, 2009 10:36 AM,
Are you a current member?
Do you tithe?
Why do you post anonymously?
Why do you want Tom to butt out?
Does the attention he is drawing to your pastor make you nervous?
Why do you like reading this blog?
Why is it you cannot resist posting here?

(I don't really want to know any of these answers. I just wondered what you'd think of being on the other side of your requests. I'm interested to know if you'll respond.)

You are welcome back anytime.
Please don't butt out.
You help prove many points regarding the Mac-backers that are still hanging on at FBCJ.
All are welcome here.
This is the blog of the open door.
Which is very much NOT what your church is any more.

Anonymous said...

Dog,
I am not longer believing that tithing the way it is taught in the institutional, business model church is biblical. having done some of my own study and reading of many other scholars (outside of baptist world) we begin to see that the teaching on tithing is unbiblical. So, in deference to my wife, I allow her to give 50% of our tithe/offering to FBC and the rest goes into ministries that are making a difference in people's lives directly.

Anonymous said...

I remember when Mac gave the presentation last year and showed us pictures of stained ceiling tiles and pealing wall paper and then described the AC unit in the Ruth Lindsey auditorium needed fixing or replacing. I was expecting a request for a little over $100,000. When he asked for $990,000, I was flabbergasted. It was at that time that I KNEW that the church leadership was corrupt and taking us for FOOLS!

Anonymous said...

anon 1:25,

Has anyone noticed if all those repairs were actually made?

Anonymous said...

You guys are never going to get a line item budget presentation at FBC, Jax. You never have and never will so either move on or learn to live with it. For those who are not members, however the church and their leadership feel the Lord has led them to raise the needed funds, that is their business. If you want a voice in what they do, join the church and then say something. Then I'm sure they will listen to you.

BTW, I do tithe, I do go every Sunday, and I'm perfectly happy with the way our church is run. Maybe you guys should find the same.

Anonymous said...

Oh and I forgot to add, I post anonymously because that's what I learned from watching Tom Rich.

Anonymous said...

anon 2:25,

Apparently that's all you learned from Tom Rich.

Truth Purveyor said...

All you anon's and the Former FBC insider, and I know who you are since I am a current FBC insider; please do not slight Tom for speaking out against special offering requests at FBC.

I think that is GREAT that he is staying in the fray on giving at FBCJ. As a matter of fact, I think that he should do more to discourage folks at church from giving, tithing or whatever vernacular he wishes to use.

As far as the anon 2:24, every month I am given a "line item budget" presentation when I walk throught the door. Amazingly enough, I do not have to provide i.d or my FBCJ membership card to get one. The funny thing is that it is far more detailed than the annual reports that I get from all the companies that I own stock in.

I say to all those who wish to chime in and especially Tom, please, please, please keep encouraging all of the folks at FBCJ to stop tithing, giving, special offering, etc.

Who knows, this thing may shut down when folks stop giving and Brother Rob can come take over and run the thing along with Matt as his spiritual advisor, the Former FBC insider can become an insider again and be the church secretary, Lydia can start a new trend and be associate pastor, oops, I mean executive pastor. I think that Tom can take Murillo's place and be the "coach". He would do a good job at that. But wait, every church needs a holy spirit. My bad Tom. You can become the new churches holy spirit.

I can't wait till that happens (What a day that will be) then I can go do what Lydia recommends and do my worshiping on the golf course or fishing.

Sincerely,


T

Anonymous said...

Anon 2:29pm,


That's about all there was to learn from Tom Rich.

Anonymous said...

Tom,

You posted that at 4:15AM??

Your obsession is keeping you up far too late.

Anonymous said...

Truth Purveyor said...
All you anon's and the Former FBC insider, and I know who you are since I am a current FBC insider
=================================

Interesting Comment from CURRENT FBC INSIDER who knows who all of the "anons" are . . .Mmmm!

Book Suggestion: How To Smell A Rat, by Ken Fisher

Anonymous said...

Oh and I forgot to add, I post anonymously because that's what I learned from watching Tom Rich.

August 20, 2009 2:25 PM

Always a follower of men

Truth Purveyor said...

CLARIFICATION: I know not the identity of any of the anon's, only the identity of the FBC Insider currently known as Former FBC Insider.

Sorry for the confusion.


Sincerely,


T

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

And Truth Purveyor, I know YOUR identity. So no big deal.

I just don't know why you are acting so cowardly as to not post with your name. What ARE you afraid of?

Anonymous said...

. . .to consider that our giving might convey to those watching FBC that we are serious about God's work, for the future of (our) wonderful fellowship.
________________________________

It will convey a message alright: either the people down there are so blind and gullible they will continue to give to this charlatan without any transparency and without any objection to the wasteful abuses OR they will see that people down there have had enough and it is time to run off Team Brunson and Maurilio and the only way to do that is to stop funding this "robbing of God" the leadership is doing.

And yes, the whole city is watching. Even the mayor I suppose. I mean, if we have people in Jax who are willing to give to make up for shortfalls in bloated budgets, then the mayor will take notice. And vice versa. Eventually, some need to say to the mayor and to Brunson ---ENOUGH!

Anonymous said...

It would really be informative to know if you even tithed when you were a member.
_________________________________

Really? Interesting to whom? Why? Would that make any of the abuses any more acceptable? Who cares if the WD was so gullible to give 10% of his income to the budget? I certainly don't care one way or the other.

Anonymous said...

It is hilarious to watch all of you say you know who everyone is--and in reality, noone really knows or cares. Surely Tom has no business chastising anyone for remaining anonymous since he did so himself until he was caught red-handed.

The bottom line for all of you who are so quick to criticize and complain: if you aren't a member of FBC, Jax then it is none of your business.

Anonymous said...

Last time I checked you are no longer a member at FBC, Jax
________________________________

When was the last time you checked? Who are you? Why should we care about either? Why does it matter if WD is a member?

Anonymous said...

"You guys are never going to get a line item budget presentation at FBC, Jax. You never have and never will so either move on or learn to live with it."

NOT TRUE. If enough people wake up, and receipts go down, some much needed changes WILL be made."

"If you want a voice in what they do, join the church and then say something. Then I'm sure they will listen to you."

LIAR or FOOL? Us joining the church gives us no voice and they still wouldn't listen. Just like YOU have no voice and they won't listen to you! (Unless you are one of the hand-picked trustee yes men.)

BTW, I do tithe,

REALLY? Why? You give a tenth of your crops to the priests so there will be meat in the storehouse of the jewish people? Or do you just foolishly give 10% of your money so you can feel like you are following some requirement in the Bible? Where is that legalistic obligation in "da book?" And why are you telling us that you tithe. Are you proud of that? Are you proud of yourself for some reason?Is that some sort of spiritual litmus test for you and your buddies to feel good about yourself?

"I do go every Sunday,..."

Really? Why? Another way to be legalistic, judge others who don't or can't go every Sunday, and feel spiritual? And again, why brag about it here?

"I'm perfectly happy with the way our church is run."

Again, are you a LIAR or a FOOL.


"Oh and I forgot to add, I post anonymously because that's what I learned from watching Tom Rich."

Really - you are learning from and following Tom Rich's example? If you don't like anonymous posts and deem them to be from coward, then you should model correct behaviour for all of us. What is your problem? Can't think for yourself. Great, now give me 10% of your income. I love people who can't think for themselves and will actually give me cold, hard, cash. And so does your church, you can believe that! Like Tom says: FORK IT OVER!

Anonymous said...

Apparently the time stamp was wrong as this new article was not up until much later in the day. And you must be even more compulsive than Tom to be reading the blog every day, noticing time stamps. If he is obsessed with a millionaire charlatan, how much worse would it be if he were obsessed with one blogger like you are? Sheesh!

Anonymous said...

Wow, apparently some of you good folks tithed for the wrong reasons. It seems you did so under compulsion, or in response to legalistic guidelines taught to you. Jesus looks at the heart, and if your motives were not pure, you gave those thousands over the years in vain. As for me, I have never "tithed", yet I have given cheerfully, not under obligation, and in accordance with what I had purposed in my heart to give out of a heart of love and gratitude to the Lord, as well as out of compassion to help minister to those in need. I can't even imagine being proud (in the negative sense) and arrogantly coming on to a blog to brag that "I give the tithe" like some of you have done. But I guess by tithing, you are getting your reward here on earth like Jesus said. You get leadership positions and the respect of men based on how much you give. That is why you want us all to know. Unfortunately, you are buying "respect" at a high price. I want to store up my treasures in heaven.

Anonymous said...

The bottom line for all of you who are so quick to criticize and complain: if you aren't a member of FBC, Jax then it is none of your business.

August 20, 2009 5:34 PM

If you guys call yourselves Christians, you better bet it is my business what you are trying to pass off as 'of Christ'. It is my duty to point out to unbelievers that what is going on at FBCJAX with that con man of yours has nothing to with our precious Lord.

We have a duty to point out wolves and hirlings.

Anonymous said...

it is always funny in these situations when the pledges or funds come up short -- the givers are the ones not hearing the voice of God -- the leaders are always perfectly in tune with His desires so give MORE!

Pastor Rod H. said...

"Who knows, this thing may shut down when folks stop giving and Brother Rob can come take over and run the thing "

T.P.the name is Rod.

T.P.one thing I do know for sure is that the group of people you named would do a better job and be more transparent and honest than that crew of mercenenaries you've got running the show now!!!

Anonymous said...

Tom, Is it seriously 5% under budget? It would not take much to make adjustments to spending to cover that. If one saw the every day spending at mega's they would know what I am talking about.
That is why I think it might be more serious and they are not discussing that right now for whatever reasons. It could be they are seeing some scary trends in overall giving.

But then, how many folks there actually see a real budget but a handful.

Megas are not used to cutting budgets. It is not in their vocabulary. They can talk a good game in elders meetings about being more efficient but with such large staffs it is almost impossible to track what is necessary and what isn't. Usually the sr. pastor is the hardest one to reign in. He wants certain things to promote a series and tells the communications people but they have been told by their boss to cut back on such things. They do not say no to the big boss. And on it goes.

But I know some that have had to make some real cuts in the last year for the first time since their inception. And the cuts were nothing the audience would notice.

I would want to see a detailed budget before I threw more money at that place.

Matt

Truth Purveyor said...

Matt, are you saying that FBCJ, your church, Tom's church, or any other church should produce a more detailed budget than a publicly traded company's budget report?

Anonymous said...

Matt, are you saying that FBCJ, your church, Tom's church, or any other church should produce a more detailed budget than a publicly traded company's budget report?

August 21, 2009 8:14 AM

Is this a trick question? (Just kidding)

Absolutely. I cannot even think in terms of business/church anymore. I had to leave that way of thinking and it was very hard for me.

We are not like the world. Even in this respect. What the business world would think foolish, we might see as wise when it comes to resources.

Being in a smaller Body of Christ, it has been a wake up call to see how this can be handled in a God honoring way. The budget meetings are open to the Body. Some of our most astute, budget wise, have been the older women who made very wise suggestions on being more frugal with resources.

There is a running theme throughout Paul's writings of him collecting an offering for the Christians in Judea. It is mentioned in different venues and to make several different doctrinal points. But this money was not for missions. It was to help other believers they had never met who were in poverty and persecution.

Paul makes the point that he made tents so as not to be a burden
even though he was entitled to help. But throughout the letters, you can sense his determination to get help to these brothers and sisters.

And yet, today many are still stuck focused on budget shortfalls, maintainig huge buildings, consultants, high salaries and all that. They measure a person's righteousness with how much they will give to maintain such things.

They are focused on getting more money for what?

Like Paul, we should instead, be focused on how much the Body of Christ GIVES AWAY. Then our focus is not on our big buildings, programs and salaries. But on spreading the Gospel and taking care of those in need in the universal Body of Christ.


How would that be for a focus in a budget meeting? Barebones budget so we can give more away.


Matt

Anonymous said...

I imagine that those of you who are demanding transparency and accountability and harping about not tithing or ridiculing those who do, probably are in no positions of leadership and most likely rarely if ever attend any church. You are just a bunch of malcontents who have found a place to gripe.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Wartburg Watch: "Poor Pastor Mac: Getting Killed for the Lord"

On Paige Patterson's painting Brunson as a martyr being persecuted by FBC Jax in March 2007, Wartburg writes:

"No, Mac Brunson was treated like a king when he came to FBC Jax. The problem is, he took this king thing a bit too far and began to look at the people as his subjects instead of his fellow priests in the business of bringing the love of Jesus to Florida. It appears to me that the role model that he demonstrated was that of a rather mundane, whiney and ungrateful man instead of a man grateful not to be facing real persecution like his brothers and sisters around the world. He owes the FBC Jax congregation and those who are really at risk of getting killed, an apology.

Patterson got this whole thing backwards. At the close of his little lecture to the students he said, “we promise we will do that (meaning pray for him) sweet brother, don't grow weary in well-doing.” Instead he should have said “Mac, praise God, you are doing well!” and Mac should have said a hearty “Amen”."


How'd I do, Thy Peace?

Former FBC Insider said...

You forgot to say,
"Off Topic".

LOL

Russell Earl Kelly said...

Forget the special offering thing. The "tithing" thing is totally indefensible using proper hermeneutics of the Bible. God could not and does not treat New Covenant Christians as if they were Old Covenant national Israel. Tithing was annulled at Calvary as discussed in Hebrews 7:5, 12 and 18.

True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke (16 of 16 texts). Although money was everywhere, it was never tithed. And tithing did not enter the SBC until the 1890s when it was rejected by the laity -- that can be documented. The texts for tithing did not enter the SBC Faith and Message until 1963. Nope, they did not appear in the 1925 Faith. Check it out on the SBC web site.

When the SBC pastors become OT Levites and priests offering animal sacrifices and forfeit all property ownership, then they can apply to receive the tithe of food from Israel per Numbers 18.

Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com


Oh, and I grew up as a Southern Baptist in Jacksonville and was saved there.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Sort of on topic:

In the Memphis Commercial Appeal there's a daily column which recalls stories from 25, 50, 75, 100, and 125 years ago. From today...

125 years ago: 1884

There were some lively proceedings in City Court yesterday, the most interesting case, according to a poll of the spectators, being that of a man who was arrested for whipping his wife because she refused to give him 25 cents to put in the contribution box at the church. He was fined the customary $10 for such activity
.

Anonymous said...

Surely Tom has no business chastising anyone for remaining anonymous since he did so himself until he was caught red-handed.
_________________________________

More faulty logic from Mac supporters. Tom is not chastising anyone for remaining anonymous. He clearly has stated here that he welcomes anonymous comments. The point he and others try to make is that those that criticized him and called him a coward for posting anonymously, are themselves doing that which they criticized him for doing. He never criticized anyone for posting anonymously, you did. So he and others are right to ask you why you post anonymously if you find it so cowardly. Think about it, ye hypocrites.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Russ - the "special offering" at the end of a budget year, sending a letter and a "special envelope", in my opinion, is a gimmick used to raise that incremental revenue. Its similar to what businesses all the time use to extract that last bit of revenue from their market...the "going out of business", or "Labor Day sale", or "Inventory Clearance"..."one day only"...but here its called a "Special Offering". Its not "special". They need more money to pay for the things they thought God wanted them to do this past year...which included trips to Germany, commercial production, TV advertising, TV show on INSP network, paying 6-figure salaries to the top executive staff. Plain and simple. They're short and need more to pay for what they thought God wanted 'em to do.

But we'll call it "special"...its a "special day" for your "special gift" so you can be, well, "special".

I can hear the Church Lady: "Isn't that special?"

Unfortunately, there are those who use the false doctrine of "storehouse tithing" in a similar manner, as a marketing ploy. They KNOW they can't defend that doctrine from scripture, they KNOW that it is at best a tradition, and at worse a heresy, but they can't get away from it because they believe it works to raise the millions they need. Especially in a church that has believed it for decades...it WORKS! If they trusted God, they would be truthful about it from scripture, and trust God to move in the hearts of people to give as they are purposed in their hearts.

Anonymous said...

Matt, are you saying that FBCJ, your church, Tom's church, or any other church should produce a more detailed budget than a publicly traded company's budget report?

August 21, 2009 8:14 AM

__________________________________

I would say absolutely yes! Why? Publicly traded corporations are about profits and maximizing my investment. They compete in a free market and their performance in that competitive market is the bottom line, good or bad. I need only look at one thing to decide if I want to sell my stock or not, and that is profits and losses. A church, I hope even T.P. would agree, is not a company where I chose to invest my funds. I am not looking for the greatest return on my investment. I am giving to support work that reaches the lost and ministers to others. Do people like you, T.P., really see the church as a corporation and by your giving you are a shareholder? If so, when is my dividend payment going to be mailed? I haven't received one penny from the church in over 30 years. So that analogy falls flat. When you solicit money, and it appears to many a few at the top are wasting or abusing the finances, and keep soliciting more and more, than yes, they need to be detailed in where those millions are going. And if they arrogantly and stubbornly refuse, well I guess us poor powerless souls can only type on a blog about it.

Voice of Reason said...

T.P - glad you felt led to come back and put your name on some comments again. I haven't heard from you since I asked you to respond to some very simple issues and of course, you were unable to address them because they are indefensible. Yet you still come back to this blog as a eunuch now.

Former FBC Insider said...

Truth Purveyor said...
CLARIFICATION: I know not the identity of any of the anon's, only the identity of the FBC Insider currently known as Former FBC Insider.


So, do we take this to mean that you believe me to be a 'current' FBC Insider?

Just curious...

Russell Earl Kelly said...

There is not a single SBC leader who will reply to my challenge to dialog on tithing. Forftunately the SBC seminary at Wake Forest has 4 theologians who agree with me.

Didn't Jerry Vines come from Jacksonville? His diploma was from then-unaccredited Luther Rice. Guess what, they have criticized my school for being less-than-fully accredited but say nothing about Vines, Stanley, Zodhiatges and Walter Martin.

Anonymous said...

oops!I see that russell kelly phd. got his degree from that diploma mill Covington Seminary. Guess he does not know about another blogger who got fried on this blog site for doing the same.But that's ok though, the other guy disagreed with wd and phd kelly agrees with wd.

Anonymous said...

What I can't understand is why so many believe that because someone follows and gives as their Pastor leads are gullible. Many of feel that agree or disagree with Mac that we must tithe to be in His will and offer up additional offerings as He leads us. Feel free to disagree with Mac and / or tithing but do not call us gullible and act as if we are all idiots because we see it differently. God is in control, my giving will be blessed no matter how FBC spends it. (FBCD not FBCJax) We had similiar issues here but we never stopped giving and God has blessed us greatly. It's not about the man, It's about the Man!

Anonymous said...

I imagine that those of you who are demanding transparency and accountability and harping about not tithing or ridiculing those who do, probably are in no positions of leadership and most likely rarely if ever attend any church. You are just a bunch of malcontents who have found a place to gripe.

August 21, 2009 9:55 AM

Pot>kettle>black

At least Tom lets you be heard. You should thank him.

Anonymous said...

God is in control, my giving will be blessed no matter how FBC spends it. (FBCD not FBCJax) We had similiar issues here but we never stopped giving and God has blessed us greatly. It's not about the man, It's about the Man!

August 21, 2009 12:42 PM

It is scary, but many folks really believe this. They think that if they blindly give to an institution that calls itself a church that God will automatically bless it. They have been taught this. They have also been taught not to question how offerings are spent. They are told that God is in control of that. But we know that man is in control of it. If this thinking were correct, then most of the Epistles did not need to be written with instructions for dealing with many situations. Have people forgotten that God almost always works through us for His purpose?

I would ask them to show me from the New Covenant where it is taught to give money to an institution for the upkeep of that institution. They cannot. The money was given to people.

They had no temple to keep up. The 'temple' in the New Covenant is US. We now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I would like to hear from this person 'how' they were 'blessed' by their blind giving? Folks throw out that cliche quite a bit.

Anonymous said...

God is in control, my giving will be blessed no matter how FBC spends it. (FBCD not FBCJax)
__________________________________
This is one of the reasons this blog is so "dangerous" to those fleecing the sheep. It challenges this kind of gullible (yes, you are gullible if you really believe that) thinking that went unchallenged for so long.

I will agree that following the leadership of most pastors does not make one gullible. However, if you continue to do so, without question and without any accountability, after you see a string of events that tell you the pastor is a charlatan, then you have a responsibility to either require more transparency and accountability, or to give to the Lord's work somewhere else.

To simply turn away and continue to give, makes you gullible.

Amen.

Anonymous said...

The mayor and city council are giving back their "free: (paid for by our tax dollars) Jaguar tickets according to the Times-Union. They know it is just a drop in the bucket, but at least they are not so brazen to keep using these "free" tickets during this time of tax increases. What has Mac, Deb, Trey or Maurilio "given back" to show us they see the brazenness and callousness of their spending during this time where they are asking for more money?

Anonymous said...

Don't expect Mac to give back anything. Remember, in his mind (and in the minds of his supporters) he is being attacked and persecuted, got no honeymoon, and we should all follow him around one day to see just how tough his job is. Poor Mac the victim. As he said, he is paid one of the lowest salaries in the SBC. Give anything back? HAH! Now, Fork It Over!

Russell Earl Kelly said...

Hey brave guy. I am willing to discuss God's Word with anybody with any degree at any time. The cowards with all of the high-faluttin degrees run from me with all four feet.

Tell me, how does the US Government or a state government validate theology? The Mormons and Catholics give theology degrees but that does not mean they are correct.

Again I ask you about Jerry Vines adn Charles Stanley. Who throws stones at them?

The SBC gives degrees for Calvinistic theology at one school and for Arminian theology at another. Yet both are fully accredited theolpgy schools. Really Impressive. Abraham Lincoln taught himself law with no accreditation. Does that make his knowledge of law wrong?

IK have an earned degree from an SDA college. Does that make that theolgoy corre4ctd. I also hav a dgree from Yale University adn teh Ivy League schools did not ask kfor accreditation for most of their history.

Do you know what you are talkling about?

Rocgollyg said...

Dear Brother Mac,
I have received your letter this week in regards to the church being 5% under budget and your need for a additional offering over and above my monthly 10% tithe.
As much as It hurts me to say no, I think that at this point i must decline your request. You see I'm a unemployed carpenter that makes 400.00 on a good month these days and my rent on this mansion over here In Brentwood costs me 600.00 a month. My electric bill another 200.00 my Insurance,food, Prescriptions for my cancer etc... I know you You need cash for the new Ponte Vedra Mission for wayward millionaires however I have grown use to eating at least twice a week. It is my hope that God will provide a way for you as he has me with such blessings.

Anonymous said...

What has Mac, Deb, Trey or Maurilio "given back" to show us they see the brazenness and callousness of their spending during this time where they are asking for more money?

August 21, 2009 1:39 PM

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Stayed Tuned!

We members of FBCJ always are told (and shown the envelope) that the pulpit shares and ensures that they too are good stewards when asking for additional monies so that FBC may carry out all the ministries that they (The Leadership) feel are so critical.

Favorite Sentence:
"Consider that your giving might convey to those watching us that we are serious about God's work"

Got that right - lots of people are watching!

Truth Purveyor said...

I say that we all quit FBCJ and go join Tom or Brother Rods church. They don't require "tithing" at all. They must have one of those trust funds set up that keeps the lights on and the toilets flushing.

However,I still like Lydia's and Matt's idea of worshiping in our own private moments and avoid darkening the door to any church building, especially the MEGA'S.

That sounds like a nice day on the golf course or fishing in one of the fine bodies of water the Lord created for us here in Florida to praise and worship him on.

Yep, keep up all the talk for not giving to FBCJ and that place will crumble like dust. Duval county can sell the property on the courthouse steps and get someone in there that will pay lots of taxes so they can keep their Jaguar tickets and cushy city paid jobs.

Thanks Lydia and Matt. I am liking y'alls ideas more and more.

Sincerely,


T

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Sacrcasm works best, T, when you have a point to the sarcasm. Your sarcasm addresses none of the issues here and makes no sense, and they're not even humorous. But I'm sure it made you feel a little better, so that's fine.

I guess this article must have really gotten under your skin, hit a little too close to home for you, as you stopped being analytical and addressing facts and asking smart questions.

If you are a lawyer, is this how you talk to your jury when you get frustrated and upset?

Provender said...

Jesus commended the widow who threw in her two mites, even though we know what He thought of the Saducees. Still, just because the widow was commended for her act doesn't mean that somehow Jesus approved of the Saducees or that He thought well of their work. He didn't stop criticizing them. The widow may have been gullible, but it is no matter. What does matter is that Jesus saw fit to bring the Saducees' errors to light, and didn't stop criticizing them because they gnashed their teeth against Him.

Anonymous said...

"However,I still like Lydia's and Matt's idea of worshiping in our own private moments and avoid darkening the door to any church building, especially the MEGA'S."

I never said that brother. If you would read my comment again, you would see that I do attend a church in a church building.

That does not mean I think we have to have a church building. We don't. The Body of Christ is where ever the "members" of that Body meet together.

Our church building is getting old. We made a decision to walk on worn out carpet, use an antiquated sound system and many other decisions in order to give more money away. We are even going to fix some roof leaks ourselves.

That was a decision of everyone in the Body who chose to be a part of the process.

We just do not want to fall into the trap of the building owning us. Or coveting and being proud of bricks and morter and 'programs'.

"Yep, keep up all the talk for not giving to FBCJ and that place will crumble like dust."

That might be a good thing. We tend to covet our buildings and be proud of them. It is hard not to. I know.

Please do not misrepresent my words. If you are confused about what I have written, please ask for clarification. To suggest that I advocate the Body not to meet is not true. In the NT, they met in homes, by the river, anywhere. The one thing we do not have evidence for in NT scripture is a special building designated for worship. That was changed on the Cross.

Remember what Jesus told the Samaritan woman when she told Jesus that her ancestors worshiped on the mountain but the Jews said one had to worship in Jerusalem?

His answer applies to us, too.

Jn 4

19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

It is about Spirit and Truth. Not about buildings.

Matt

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

To understand why Det. Hinson filed criminal subpoena against Watchdog and it's implications versus a civil subpoena as being done here:

EFF > Chicago Development Critics Fight for Anonymity - EFF Battles Heavy-Handed Tactics Threatening Free Speech.
Chicago - The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has asked an Illinois Circuit Court judge to quash subpoenas aimed at outing opponents of a controversial city project.

In December, local residents filed a lawsuit in state court against the city of Chicago and local developers, challenging the legality of a development project in the city's Uptown neighborhood. In response, the "Wilson Yard Defendants," six firms associated with Chicago developer Peter Holsten, issued subpoenas directing Google and a local neighborhood association to unmask anonymous online critics who had discussed either the project or Alderman Helen Shiller, the primary governmental sponsor of the project.

EFF and co-counsel Charles Mudd Jr. obtained a temporary order protecting the anonymous speakers in July, while the defendants asked that the court wait to consider whether to dismiss the subpoenas until after the plaintiffs filed an amended complaint. With the amended complaint now filed, providing no support for the subpoenas, EFF and Mudd have moved to quash the subpoenas outright.

"The right to speak anonymously is a fundamental element of the First Amendment. Individuals need to know that they can express their views, and do so without fear of legal reprisal," said EFF Staff Attorney Matt Zimmerman. "Efforts to target critics of government-sponsored activity are precisely what the First Amendment is designed to prevent."

While anonymous online speakers can be unmasked in certain narrow circumstances, none of them apply in this case. In a motion to quash the subpoenas filed Friday, EFF argues that the identities of the critics have no bearing on issue before the court -- a lawsuit that concerns land-use ordinances. EFF has repeatedly tried to resolve the matter with the developer's attorneys but to no avail.

"Enough is enough," said Zimmerman. "The defendants are demonstrating a callous disregard for the First Amendment and cannot be allowed to abuse the judicial process any longer."

The sites targeted by the subpoena to Google were community websites "Uptown Update" (www.uptownupdate.com) and "What the Helen" (defunct since 2007). Also targeted with a separate subpoena was non-profit neighborhood association Buena Park Neighbors (www.buenaparkneighbors.org).

For the full motion to quash the subpoenas:
http://www.eff.org/files/filenode/fix_wilson_yard/FIXWILSONYARD92109.pdf

Russell Earl Kelly said...

T
Do you even know the difference between tithes and freewill offerings? Although money was very common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in the 16 texts which describe the tithe for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke. I wonder why. Jesus Himself, Peter and Paul did not even qualify as tithe payers because true biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. If you do not live in Israel under the Old Covenant, then you do not and cannot tithe either! It is a false doctrine to help wolves fleece their flocks.

Do some research. Don't take my word for it. Read a few dozen church historians from various denominations. Read SBC historians Baker and Dana. The post Calvary church did not practice tithing of any sort regularly until AD 777. How on earth did they possibly survive?

NT giving principles given to the church after Calvary are: freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment (or percentage) and motivated by love for God and lost souls. Perhaps the church should go back to teaching personal evangelism and preaching on hell.

Don't blame the church's failures on the failure to tithe. John MacArthur, Moody and Dallas seem to do fine without that false doctrine.

Russ Kelly

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"If you do not live in Israel under the Old Covenant, then you do not and cannot tithe either! It is a false doctrine to help wolves fleece their flocks.

Do some research. Don't take my word for it."


"Don't blame the church's failures on the failure to tithe. John MacArthur, Moody and Dallas seem to do fine without that false doctrine."



Russ Kelly

August 21, 2009 4:59 PM


Thank you very much Dr.Kelly!

Let those who are able to hear this truth,let them hear!!!

Anonymous said...

Umm, not being a Christian or a member of FBC, could someone explain to me the reference to "giving units"? I read here fairly regularly, but apparently I've missed the definition or meaning of this.

I'm pretty sure my input isn't wanted here, but you all would be a hell of a lot better off spending that tithe money on a bottle of Jameson for yourselves, and sending the rest to a women's shelter or some such thing.

Anonymous said...

Oh, and one more thing, Anonymous at August 20, 2009 7:04 PM, you totally wiped the floor with the cat you were responding to. No doubt. What's the big hang-up anyway with tithing? If I remember correctly, a tithe also involved wine. Do you tithe a tenth of your wine too? And why do Christians say the OT is a past dispensation when it comes to such onerous things as stoning adulterers, enslaving the countries around you (after killing all the grown men) and other such things as are found throughout the OT, but somehow tithing should still be the law of the land? How strange. What a weird way to live.

Thy Peace said...

I am assuming this is a serious question:

Umm, not being a Christian or a member of FBC, could someone explain to me the reference to "giving units"? I read here fairly regularly, but apparently I've missed the definition or meaning of this.

Answer:

Pie Charts and "Giving Units".

Anonymous said...

Thank you, Thy Peace. Yep, it was a serious question. I missed that blog. I didn't start coming here until the big blow-up back a few months or so ago.

Giving units, eh. Wow. It is hard for me to fathom how that church still has a crowd each weekend.

Russell Earl Kelly said...

Pastor Rod H
Send me a personal email with your church's name and address and I will post it on my site with others.

Russell Earl Kelly

Anonymous said...

Bro Kelly,

If you are still reading, I was wondering if you could expound a bit on Matthew 17 and the temple tax. It is obvious that Peter committed Jesus to pay it, most likely so Jesus could use it as a doctrinal lesson on the 'sons are free'. but I was wondering why it was paid with a coin?

Thanks,

Matt

Russell Earl Kelly said...

Anonymous
Since you are not a Christian I do not know why you bother to engage in our blogs. We argue among each other but we at least admit that, except for the grace of God, we are but lost sinners. Now we are saved sinners. The difference is now we have been born again, or spiritually recreated, and have the Holy Spirit to help us overcome sin. I will pray for you.

Russell Earl Kelly said...

Even a non-Spirit filled person like Anonym,ous can figure out that there is something inherently wrong with keeping tithing and ignoring the other 600+ commands of the same law. Stoning adulterers is nothing. They were to stone their own children for cursing or striking them in Ex 21:15, 17.

The Old Covenant is comparable to English law before the Declaration of Independence was signed except that it only applied to OT Hebrews.

The instant the Declaration was signed in 1776 citizens of the US were no longer under that law -- whether good or bad.

Since T is a lawyer, he should understand. I doubt that he argues English law in an American court, even though English law is often identical to American law. Those under the New Covenant have no legal right to ask God to bless them for tithing when tithing was never part of the New Covenant.

Thy Peace said...

Anonymous
Since you are not a Christian I do not know why you bother to engage in our blogs. We argue among each other but we at least admit that, except for the grace of God, we are but lost sinners
.

I am a Christian. But I will attempt to answer for the Anon who is not a believer.

The outing of Watchdog by Fbc Jax and using the power of State to issue Criminal Subpoenas with Criminal Trespass Warnings to both Watchdog and his Wife, has attracted the attention nationwide of atheists and non-believers. Call it what you like. But this fault lies with Pastor Mac and Fbc Jax Leadership. To see all the links, please click on Media Coverage Links on the top right hand corner of this blog. They probably are not updated recently but they give a glimpse of news and blogger posts around the world on these actions. And this brings non-believers to Watchdog's blog to follow up on where all this is heading. Especially the court cases.

Russell Earl Kelly said...

Matt
All temple taxes were paid with coins, with temple shekels, which had to be transferred from Roman money into temple money by the money changers who made an illegal profit. Guess who kept the Roman money -- the Levite moneychangers. When I was in China in the '60s I observed good money being exchanged for worthless temple money for the same purpose.

Jesus declared that, as a son of the king, he did not really have to pay tribute to Caesar. He did not want to start an issue which would have detracted from his gospel message.

All Hebrews, old or young, were required to pay temple head taxes but these were not tithes. In fact Nehemiah 10:37b makes it clear that the citizens were ordinarily commanded to bring their tithes, not to the Temple, but to the Levitical cities where most of the Levites and priests lived with their families. The Temple storehouse was only two small storerooms to feed the course (1 of 24) which roatated in and out every week per Neh 13:5.

Anonymous said...

Bro Kelly, Thanks so much for expounding on that. I always wondered why it was paid in coinage.

Matt

Anonymous said...

http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor178.htm

Anonymous said...

Mr Kelly,

Why does a Christian like you list your Zodiac sign and astrology information on your blog page?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Readers:

There is an interesting article on Tim Tebow in GQ that is running this week. You can read the article here:

Does God Have a Tim Tebow Complex?

Something VERY interesting, is that this author, Jason Fagone, apparently visited FBC Jax. Here is what Jason said in the article:

"First Baptist is a hard-line megachurch; the pastor, Mac Brunson, has said that September 11, Hurricane Katrina, and the recession are evidence of God's wrath against a sinful nation. But the Tebows' evangelical style is miles away from fire and brimstone. They speak of love, not hell. When Tim and his two brothers, Robby and Peter, were old enough (15), Bob started taking them on trips to the Philippines. They'd set up shop in some village, string a bedsheet between a couple of coconut trees, and show a movie about the life of Jesus, translated into the Tagalog dialect. Then Bob would stop the movie and preach, and so would the kids. "They were nervous the first time, and probably many times after that," Bob says. "But it's like riding a bicycle. Put 'em on it, push 'em, and let 'em fall down."

Hmmmm...wonder where Jason got that info.

Lydia said...

Mr Kelly,

Why does a Christian like you list your Zodiac sign and astrology information on your blog page?

August 21, 2009 10:50 PM

Nice try. Other haters have tried that with so many. One reason could be that one is filling out blogger profile and put in their birthday and it automatically puts all that stuff in and you don't know it until it is set up. And many are not sure how to get it off. Or they may not know it is there if they do not go back and check their profile after setting it up.

You may also note that Mr. Kelly is legally blind as stated on his blog. It could be he is using a special screen which enlarges the print but does not fit the whole page on the screen.

I rather doubt it means Mr. Kelly is calling Dionne Warwick's psychic hotline or singing the Age of Aquarius in the shower.

Lydia said...

"First Baptist is a hard-line megachurch; the pastor, Mac Brunson, has said that September 11, Hurricane Katrina, and the recession are evidence of God's wrath against a sinful nation. "

Internetmonk has an excellent blog post about this sort of thing:


http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/with-all-due-respect

Anonymous said...

Speaking of singing in the shower...

Bill said...

Anon August 20, 2009 10:36 AM
Your constant harping on what they are doing or feel the Lord is leading them to do is pathetic.

Anyone who is a member of a SBC church should pay attention. As the next SBC president, we all have concern for how Mac leads the church, it is a good indication how he will lead the entire convention.

Somebody is not paying attention if they have to all of a sudden come up with $990,000 for repairs. ( I am looking at you - building and grounds committee - or whatever they call it at FBCJax.)

Bill said...

The bottom line for all of you who are so quick to criticize and complain: if you aren't a member of FBC, Jax then it is none of your business.

August 20, 2009 5:34 PM

I disagree very much, what are the chances of Mac becoming president of the SBC? As a member of a church in the SBC, I want to know how the pres will lead the convention.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Kelly, while I appreciate your concern for my soul, and your wonderment at my presence here, both are really not necessary, as I will attempt to explain below.

March of 1988, with all sincerity, I asked Jesus to forgive my sins, and invited Him to live in my heart.

I won't go into detail about why I walked away back around 2001, but I did. Suffice it to say that the affairs, the lies, the abuse and twisting of the Scripture, and the plain as day evidence that maybe one in ten thousand believers actually walks the walk for longer than one hour after church is over, all added up, and I threw in the towel.

Please, spare me all of the reasons, excuses, the telling me of my own all-to-obvious imperfections, etc. I have heard all of the arguments about why I need to come back to the faith. It was extremely painful and heart-wrenching to leave, but I have left.

As one who was at one time heavily involved in the believer lifestyle, certainly you can see why I find what is going on at FBC interesting. As one who very much believes in freedom, and the little guy against the big guy, you should now understand why I check in with Tom's blog now and then.

Thy Peace said...

The Wartburg Watch > Fbc Jacksonville + Mac Brunson > The Pastor Or The Model: Who Demonstrates A More Christlike Attitude?.
During our coverage of the FBX Jax saga, a news story that has received international attention for the past eight months has providentially come to a head. Liskula Cohen, a well known Vogue model, was being harassed by an anonymous blogger. This blogger called her disgusting names and accused her of perverted behavior. Here is one of the blogger's insults: "Over-the-hill skank" with Mr. Ed-like looks who is "psychotic, lying, whoring."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/08/19/2009-08-19_court_tells_model_liskula_cohen_identity_of_blogger_that_called_her_a_skank_she_.html#ixzz0OqVblFs3.

This blogger’s sick attack lasted over a prolonged period of time. In January 2009 the model went to court to obtain the right to learn the name of her attacker from Google. It's important to draw attention to the fact that she went to a public court to obtain this right. She didn’t sneak around with a detective/bodyguard to get a “secretive” subpoena.

The model finally discovered the identity of the anonymous blogger. However, what happened next is so surprising that last night, Bill O’Reilly, of the enormously successful prime time Fox news show, The O’Reilly Factor, called Ms. Cohen “a patriot” during the segment, entitled “Pinheads and Patriots.

The model, upon learning the blogger’s name just two days ago, realized that she vaguely knew this woman. As soon as she got the mystery blogger's personal information, she called her and said, 'I just want you to know that if I've ever done anything to you to actually deserve this, that I'm really very sorry. I'm sincerely apologetic,'" Cohen said.

Johnny D. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Johnny D. said...

And by the way, this is me (Anonymous postings at 9:07 today, and at 7:09, 7:24 and 8:51 yesterday. I just outed myself!). I have an account here, but I rarely use it. I blog elsewhere. I have posted here before under this name, but lately I've just been too lazy to sign in.

Russell Earl Kelly said...

I did not list that pagan info on Facebook. It is done automatically. I rarely even look at Facebook. My web site and Tithing-Study are checked daily.

Russell Earl Kelly said...

Yes, I am legally blind. And yes I completed my education via distance learning. The books were standard Baptist seminary textbooks and each course required that hundreds of questions be answered. I use great magnification and probably read a book a week on church history or related subjects using a 5 power hand held magnifier. Like Rush Limbaugh, I get most of myu education from deep constant study.

Elisabeth said...

I think if Mac becomes SBC pres, I might leave!

Anonymous said...

Dear Lydia,

Why are you so eager to jump in for Mr Kelley. As noted, he did speak for himself and I now understand. To start calling me a hater with no other information is difficult to understand.
Are you the watchdog's watchdog?

Anonymous said...

Hi Mr Kelley,

I hope you don't think I was a hater when I asked that question. Lydia thinks I am but she does that to everyone she disagrees with.

Can anyone offer advice as to how he can get this info removed. Afterall, Watchdog doesn't have it on his nor does Lydia.



Love to all!

Anonymous said...

8:40,

I don't think you're a hater. I think you're a garden-variety troll. Are you in 6th grade or 7th grade this year? Or do you just hang out with 6th graders a lot?

Lydia said...

"Why are you so eager to jump in for Mr Kelley. As noted, he did speak for himself and I now understand. To start calling me a hater with no other information is difficult to understand.
Are you the watchdog's watchdog?"

Sweetie, your original question is below:

"Why does a Christian like you list your Zodiac sign and astrology information on your blog page?"

Since you could not attack his viewpoint on the topic of tithing, you went for the personal to try and discredit him. And now you are trying to recover. It was petty and hateful.

And Tom can tell me to stop. Not you. I think he is real nice allowing you to post here. He certainly does not have to put up with all the insults from his detractors. But he does.

Anonymous said...

Lydia,

Please give me a break. I am NOT the same anon who asked about tithing. I just looked at Mr Kelley's website and saw that and was curious? That was my only question/remark.
Instead of giving advise as how to remove such information for Mr Kelly, you decided to attack me.
I apologize to you but I really don't understand why you made your previous assumption.
There are many anons on Tom's blog. Don't, please assume they are all the same person.
Thanks!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Perhaps if some of you "anons" would at least use a unique screen name such confusion wouldn't arise.

Anonymous said...

Lydia - You make valid points often BUT you are very belligerant with people.

Mr. Kelley - I enjoy your posts. Welcome to the Dog Pound. Hopefully you will stick around and be a regular contributor

Anonymous said...

Oh what a tangled web we weave when at first we practice to deceive--the theme song of all us anonymous bloggers on here.

But then, we learned it from the master of blogging deception--the illustrious and now outed, Tom Rich.

Lydia said...

Lydia - You make valid points often BUT you are very belligerant with people.

I called you sweetie! Besides, if I were a man you would call it being direct. :o)

(At least I think it was you...one of many anons)

Flash said...

Just heard at FBC-Dallas this morning that Mac has convinced another of one of our staff to leave here and join the sinking ship in JAX. Maybe that is why he needed to take a "special" offering.

Russell Earl Kelly said...

Have they ever preached this sermon?

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye [church elders] ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
KJV

Anonymous said...

Lydia, you assume too much. way too much.

Someone is leaving FBD for FBJ? No difference. FBD isn't thought of too well by many, either.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Kelly,
I like you get most of my knowledge from study. I also spend many hours reading, absorbing, and thinking upon Gods word. There is no greater blessing. Thank you for using the KJV.

Anonymous said...

I think that when you call people "plebe" its an insult. That sounds like an ameoba or something. Or is that amoeba? You all act like everybody who gives to the special offering is an idiot. Howz come? Hey, I don't let my jealousy get the best of me...like yesterday when I'm pulling out of church and I see all the Lexuses and Lincolns out there and I'm riding around in my A/C less car with the bruise on the side...I just say...I am blessed to have this car that still runs..not "WHY OH WHY GOD CAN"T I HAVE THAT CAR RIGHT THER? WHY CAN"T I CRUISE THE DANUBE AND NOT HAVE TO TAKE A CANOE IN THE ST. JOHNS GREEN ABYSS TO FIND MY CARP DINNER? WHY DO I HAVE ON THIS WALMART SPECIAL?" NO...I am blessed with what I have and I won't let my jealousies stand in the way of that. I don't have to pay for all the rich peoples stuff, and I have all I need. I do not need a cruise with Egyptian combed sheets or even a egyptian comb for that matter. Don't be jealous, watchdog. Just be thankful for what you got.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

The word "plebe", as I used it, means people thought to be of a lower or middle class, at least lower than the people who are in power. Its really not a derogatory term about those who might give, its just a word used to describe the "general population" of people, who are separate from the higher authorities.

Face it, you and I are the "plebs"!

Anonymous said...

Does any one know if the church "forked it over"? And How much? The fact that the federal deficit is going to be crippling in the near future, probably will lead to a huge tax increase. Crippling our current standard of living. It will not be at all suprising that some churches will be running a deficit also. If this is the case, I wonder if these mega guys will take a pay cut. Or will they sell off property and deplete assets of the church in order to keep up THEIR standard of living? It's supposed to be a "church" not a corporation. What will past pastors do when the church (any church) can't continue to pay them their "retirement" money? It will be interesting to see how they handle this matter of reduced "benefits" (lavish lifestyles, perks, paid for trips, and vacations disguised as mission trips, etc.) I guess many staff members will go before a family member, of course. You can bet (joke) that the buildings, parking lots, sidewalks will go before the mega pastors will take a pay cut.
I guess we will see who is actually called of God to preach the gospel. When it starts "costing" the preacher to preach, then we may see who the real preachers are. God never promised a preacher massive amounts of money and benefits for self and family, to preach the gospel. If one is truly called to preach, then one has no biblical choice but to obey God and preach, no matter what the financial renumeration. Guess this will be the test, for the real preachers. A type of separating the wheat from the tares, sort of thing. Maybe some to the ridiculous "tax breaks" pastors get will be withdrawn. Then we will see how pastors do when they are living like US. Watch for the constant "tithing messages" headed your way. I wonder if any MEGA preacher has had his home foreclosed on. Of course not, silly me. I am sure a "love offering" would be taken from the members who can't afford it, first.
In by-gone days, (really gone now), preachers were paid meagerly, accepting whatever the people could give them. Not that I am expecting preachers to be in poverty, but this lavish lifestyle, and massive salaries is ridiculous. But some are going to grab it while they can. In the past a preachers home was sometimes a refuge for the "down and out" or the hurting. Today you can't find them, they live in gated communities, so as not to be bothered. You can't get l5 minutes time with them at the church. They send out someone else who "handles" the problem, as they are too busy. And after all, that is what some staff is for isn't it? So they don't have to be bothered. Staff many times, just do the stuff the preacher doesn't want to do. Hospital preachers, visitation preachers, that's right no one is home so forget visitation. It is my opinion that some preachers think it "demeaning" to go to a house, maybe not so grand, to tell the lost occupant about Jesus. If the people want to hear about Jesus then they must watch the preacher on TV, or show up for the performance at the church. So exactly what is it a preacher is paid massive bucks for. Just to keep him on stage? I'll pass thank you.
For you truly called pastors that really do the work of the Lord without all of the perks; you who are in the ministry to help people and to preach the gospel, my sincere thanks and prayers to you. For the rest of you preachers who ARN'T truly called, Jesus died on the Cross that you may be saved also!!!!

Anonymous said...

For you truly called pastors that really do the work of the Lord without all of the perks; you who are in the ministry to help people and to preach the gospel, my sincere thanks and prayers to you.

August 24, 2009 12:16 PM

Anon 12:16
Ditto to your well written comments . . .altho I am presently amongst the "mega" fellowship I became a believer under the ministry of a small church - I am today a product of what a struggling "small church" taught me in another state - there is absolutely "no difference" outside of the fact the mega church has more monies for programs & staff. The small churches teach the word the same way!

The "Anon Pastor" who wrote somewhere on this blog that he lives on a $34,000.00 salary, the churches that have worn carpets, that are in need of paint, but yet choosing to tighten their belts even more during this economy crisis are truly the "Crown Jewels" of the church and the Mission Field here in the USA!

Likewise my thanks to you! You are the dedicated ones that reached me to which I will be eternally grateful.

These Mega pastors are not worth their paychecks or amenities given - they are "man called"! Ouch, here comes the critics!

Anonymous said...

nice work on the above post. You have a firm grasp on the bottom line here and it was well written.


word verification: submt

interesting.

Anonymous said...

I am SO NOT a PLEBE.

Anonymous said...

Anon: aug24 12:15
"Maybe some to the ridiculous "tax breaks" pastors get will be withdrawn"

IF you look at them it is not really that far fetch and not that helpful in some aspect is your salary is low. It is helpful for the person making high amounts. Which are the pastors you are talking about. On my write offs I only save $15 on every $100 above my standard deduction. I have to be able to itemize 5500 before I can start saving 15 bucks on every 100. IF you had the extra to spend it is good. Or if you are able to designate and do expense accounts for education other things its good. But for the average pastor it can become a burden especially if the Parsonage has a high marked value and the pay is not that high. But you talking about the big dogs. I understand what you are saying. We are quick to point to them but the churches are a lot of blame. It is the standard they set. Well, we are FBC SO and SO. Our pastor must have this degree, this standing, drive this kind of vehicle, live in this kind of neighborhood. I even run into this in my small church. At the time I did not health insurance so I went to a charity clinic and that upset some of the members. Now if Mac Brunson would walked in wearing a cheap suit driving a beat up car, and said I am going to live in this trailer park what do you think the elders would of said. I hope they would of said more power to you. I know I would and you would. Churches are to blame just as much. It is not about serving God it is about keeping up with other mega church sometimes. We got to have this, so and so is doing this and we got to keep up and be on the edge to be effective. If someone offer me a high salary and God calls me, then by all means. But bottom line like you said if God called you there then you will be there when it is fruitful and stay when it is not even to the point saying well I can get by on this so lets drop my salary or lets suspend some of my expense accounts or maybe we are going to freeze some perks until we have an overflow. I believe a good way to get a sense if your church is moving in a healthy direction is see what percentage you are spending in certain areas. Several years back the church I am pastoring decided to tithe 10% plus 2 more % to the CP and we are never at a loss for what we need. If the church ask you to give 10 why not them. I am saying 10% outside of designated mission offerings.
Pastor Chris

Russell Earl Kelly said...

When is the last time you heard a sermon on this?

1 Cor 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
KJV