"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Thursday, August 13, 2009

Three Cheers for William Thornton of Baptist Life

Three cheers for William Thornton, a pastor in Georgia and moderator of the "SBC News and Trends" discussion forum at Baptist Life.

William has sent an email to Tim Patterson, trustee chairman of the North American Mission Board (NAMB), expressing his deep concern over the recent "resignation" of NAMB president Geoff Hammond and three of Hammond's direct reports. Its obvious these were not resignations, but firings, but no word is coming from Patterson or the NAMB on the circumstances.

Here is Thornton's letter (with my own emphases) which he has posted openly at BL:

"I’m a pastor who has supported and given to Annie Armstrong and the Cooperative Program for decades.

NAMB’s continuing dysfunctional condition has called into question the efficacy of sending any of my church’s offerings to Atlanta because Southern Baptists deserve better than we have gotten from NAMB. I’m not mad about it but have reached a point where the same platitudes and explanations are no longer sufficient. I daresay that my church can spend our small amount of Annie Armstrong offering a lot better than NAMB can.

To repair the damage from this latest debacle, NAMB trustees need to be completely open and transparent. You can start with being frank and honest with Southern Baptists about why the leader who was highly praised just last May was sacked here in August. You can continue by disclosing how much it is costing us to replace these four employees. I am just a loney voice from the SBC hinterlands but I suggest that all NAMB trustees and staff take a substantial amount of time to shut up, sit down, and start listening to Southern Baptists. God only knows the damage that has been done to North American missions over the past few years. I hold trustees accountable for this.

I have asked the agency for email addresses for all NAMB trustees and would happily say the same things to all of them."

Full disclosure of what happened with Hammond, and the conditions of his departure are crucial, considering the debacle of Hammond's predecessor. For the health of the NAMB, and to be fair to Hammond, the SBC boys are going to have to come clean on what has happend this time at the NAMB that caused Hammond to lose his job so quickly.

Way to go, William. Its refreshing to see a SBC pastor who is not afraid to publicly call for openness and transparency from the SBC power structure....and to tell it like it is.

These guys have to learn that if they want the dollars to flow, whether it be the NAMB agencies or our SBC mega churches - leaders are going to have to start being open, honest, and transparent.

68 comments:

Anonymous said...

Why did I know you would leap on this ridiculous call for "openness and transparency"?

This guy is a liberal who is as anti-SBC as anyone on that blog.

Obviously you guys don't stop to consider the legal ramifications of full disclosure of a personnel matter. The same holds true for churches in their staff relationships.

I don't think you really want full openness and transparency because sometimes its more than you bargained for.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Yep, "William the Liberal".

Give me a break.

OK, don't disclose the conditions of his departure.

But don't either tell us that there are four "resignations".

Even in Patterson's statement...he says Hammond "has resigned"....and the other three "will resign".

Just some truth, please, when it comes to dismissing of high profile leaders of high profile agencies that are funded by the generosity of Christians in the SBC. Is that too much too ask? Apparently so.

Former FBC Insider said...

Here's another cheer for William!

Honesty is not a sin.

Was that one on your list of sins from FBCJ, Tom?

The way I see it, you were just being honest.

Will any other pastors step forward?

Anonymous said...

Is it true that Mac Brunson gets a police escort, with red lights on, every Sunday to escort him from the satilitte church back to FBC Jax? If true, do the taxpayers pay for this ego building stunt?

Anonymous said...

"Obviously you guys don't stop to consider the legal ramifications of full disclosure of a personnel matter. The same holds true for churches in their staff relationships."

Legal ramifications? Religious organizations can do what they want in personnel matters. They are not under any employment laws like other non profits. Can you say, Sheri Klouda?

Those recently laid off from SBTS did not even receive unemployment benefits. This while SBTS was spending 9 million on a campus face lift. Some of these guys were fathers/husbands with children and no health insurance. Tough luck, huh? No biggie if they lose their homes. They should have known better than to work for the SBC.

And anyone can be fired at anytime with no recourse in a religious institution and the institution is completely protected by the law.

New BBC Open Forum said...

This guy is a liberal who is as anti-SBC as anyone on that blog.

LOL! Obviously Anon 11:43 hasn't actually bothered to read BL.com. William Thornton is about the most unliberal and un-anti-SBC voice you'll find anywhere!

New BBC Open Forum said...

I am just a loney voice from the SBC hinterlands...

Nah... it couldn't be, could it?

Lydia said...

LOL! Obviously Anon 11:43 hasn't actually bothered to read BL.com. William Thornton is about the most unliberal and un-anti-SBC voice you'll find anywhere!

August 13, 2009 3:40 PM

I know, that confused me too. Thornton is the only non liberal mod over there, it seems

Anonymous said...

If Mac gets a red light escort maybe he could drop by and bring Tom to church with him.

Now that would be revival wouldn't it?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

You have to love the bulldog tenacity of William Thornton and some others in the SBC that are demanding to have answers to the Geoff Hammond firing, er, I mean "resignation".

William takes a NAMB trustee, Dave Samples, to task here at Baptist Life.

Just an excerpt from William's response to Dave Samples:

"It is offensive to me that trustees would treat their bosses, the tens of thousands of SBC churches and members, with such disdain and would make us go through another meltdown of one of our premier agencies. I had hoped that old trustees would have learned from the Reccord matter and new trustees would usher a in a new day of openness and transparency. Apparently not. This is a trustee failure. A trustee failure, not a staff failure.

I suppose I'm picking on the only guy who has actually thought enought of SBCers to make a comment. I emailed the chairman and have yet to have a reply. I'm not optimistic that he will be any more forthcoming.

This is the SBC at its worst: secrecy, closed doors, constituency stiffed, saying one thing in May, the oppostie in August...and then expecting us to swallow it all because you guys got all broken up in your trustee meeting about it. God help us. We can have the worst of disasters and gloss it over with some spiritual talk"


Wade Burleson has chimed in over at BL...Wade has promised to not be political for a year, so for him to offer any commentary at all on this tells me something stinks real bad up at NAMB.

These guys need to wake up. Its a new day, and they are going to have to start giving some answers. But last I checked, even Morris Chapman was giving any answers when Johnny Hunt was asking questions.

But rest assured, the word WILL get out eventually on the Geoff Hammon firing.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Is it true that Mac Brunson gets a police escort, with red lights on, every Sunday to escort him from the satilitte church back to FBC Jax? If true, do the taxpayers pay for this ego building stunt?

August 13, 2009 2:32 PM
_________________________________
Taxpayers don't pay for this personal escort - just another amenity that comes out of the FBCJ budget.

Special Budget Offering:
According to letter sent to members FBCJ has experienced only a 5% decrease in giving, however June & July are the busiest & most strenuous financially for the church - administration is asking each of us prepare to give AN ADDITION OFFERING on Sunday, August 23.

It also noted for some this will be a genuine sacrifice!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Is it true that Mac Brunson gets a police escort, with red lights on, every Sunday to escort him from the satilitte church back to FBC Jax? If true, do the taxpayers pay for this ego building stunt?

August 13, 2009 2:32 PM
_________________________________
Taxpayers don't pay for this personal escort - just another amenity that comes out of the FBCJ budget.

Special Budget Offering:
According to letter sent to members FBCJ has experienced only a 5% decrease in giving, however June & July are the busiest & most strenuous financially for the church - administration is asking each of us prepare to give AN ADDITION OFFERING on Sunday, August 23.

It also noted for some this will be a genuine sacrifice!

Anonymous said...

I agree with the concerns that William has expressed.

I suspect (and that's all I can do) that Hammond was opposed from the start by some who did not want him to get the job. They were on him within 5 months, then gave him good reviews, then he was in trouble again etc. After Mr. Reccord, this makes the Trustees look silly, not Hammond.

I suspect that the details of this will get out because it was a trustee decision. If unfairness was employed, the trustees who opposed this will speak out.

The difference between this and Clark Logan was that Logan apparently "resigned" after a meeting with his boss, Dr. Chapman. It was a private meeting between employer and employee.

The trustee meeting, while closed, had 50 or so witnesses who can all say what happened.

The confusion will come when the prevailing trustees put their proof on in the public and the dissenting trustees put their proof on.

Louis

Lydia said...

"The confusion will come when the prevailing trustees put their proof on in the public and the dissenting trustees put their proof on."

You never know they might have employed an agreement with the trustees just like the IMB did that they will not speak anything negative about decisions in public. If they do they are censored.

Who has the courage to be the trustee that is shunned and ridiculed. That is the real question.

After the Reccord debacle, just look at the 41 names that supported him in a letter! They would have kept Reccord had the Index story not come out.

How soon we forget the tactics.

Anonymous said...

Just thought you folks should know that a few of us wrote Tim Patterson today (since they posted his email address on Baptist Life) and reaffirmed our support for him and asked him to be sure NOT to publish any of the details of Hammond's resignation and/or firing.

This kind of information has no business being made public. The trustees have been empowered by the convention to deal with personnel issues and it needs to stay there.

The last thing Hammond and his family needs is a bunch of malcontent bloggers like you guys poring over every detail of his life.

Anonymous said...

"Just thought you folks should know that a few of us wrote Tim Patterson today (since they posted his email address on Baptist Life) and reaffirmed our support for him and asked him to be sure NOT to publish any of the details of Hammond's resignation and/or firing. "

Great idea! It is just that thinking that allowed Bob Reccord to spend millions on his pet projects that published his personal books, took him around the world promoting his own business, etc.

That thinking also paid Paige Patterson's taxidermy bills, pastry chef and renovations to Pecan Manor from CP dollars.

They love lemmings like you. Keep up the support.

What flavor kool aid are they serving you guys this week?

Junkster said...

Anonymous August 13, 2009 2:32 PM
said...
Is it true that Mac Brunson gets a police escort, with red lights on, every Sunday to escort him from the satilitte church back to FBC Jax? If true, do the taxpayers pay for this ego building stunt?
_________________________________

Anonymous August 13, 2009 8:22 PM said...
Taxpayers don't pay for this personal escort - just another amenity that comes out of the FBCJ budget.


Tell me that this is a joke or not true, please. Forget for a moment about who pays for it -- how can any police department (or any church) justify such a thing?

Watchdog, do you know if this is true? Does Mac actually get a police escort, lights on, between campuses?


P.S. Word verification: Copent. (Verb) To apologize on behalf of another or along with another. Example: "The politician's wife stood by his side, copenting of his public moral falure." See co-dependant.

Junkster said...

Anonymous said...
Why did I know you would leap on this ridiculous call for "openness and transparency"?


And why did I know that the sycophantic, obsequious toadies would be quick to criticize this post? You reactionary, anti-Watchdog troglodytes need to stop you're whining and boot-licking and get a life. That includes insipid blooters like the anon at August 13, 2009 11:26 PM who said...
This kind of information has no business being made public. The trustees have been empowered by the convention to deal with personnel issues and it needs to stay there.

What have you dudes been smoking? Time to sober up and join the real world.

Watchdog, I don't know how you manage to remain so tolerant of all this vapidity.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Junkster - I have no earthly idea. I would be shocked if it were true. Over the years there have been the craziest rumors about FBC Jax, and Homer Lindsay, etc, and that's what this sounds like. I'm sure they set the schedules to give Brunson enough time wrap up his sermon at South Campus, jump in his car and make it downtown for the sermon there.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Junkster - its how I know I'm dead center in the middle of God's will...that I'm being persecuted and attacked by those who oppose God (and me).

:)

Anonymous said...

Giving is 5% down...HAH! And we will take a special offering and get that $750,000 back in one or two offerings...HAH! Other churches are much further behind...HAH! That shows you how good WE are in "fundraising"..HAH! And I will pay Maurilio even more money now...HAH! And while the WD blogs, month after I month, I continue to pocket about $1000 each and every day and continue to live a millionaires lifestyle off of you gullible folks...HAH!

Anonymous said...

Junkster,

I'm impressed that you know some big words. And to think you believe you are impressing us is even more impressive.

One of the marks of a deluded martyr is that he thinks he is the only one in the center of God's will and is being persecuted by everyone around him.

Keep up your constant harping on Mac. Its getting you nowhere except your own elevated opinions of yourself on your own blog. Wonder what you will do after you get nailed to the wall in the courtroom?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - my comment was said in jest, demonstrating the absurd by being absurd.

Mac's mantra is that HE is the martyred one, that he and his church are suffering persecution, and whatever he is suffering now is proof that he is in God's will.

I was pointing out the ridiculousness of him claiming persecution in all of this, by being ridiculous myself. I don't at all view myself as a martyr, no matter how many times you try to say it. You HOPE that I have a deluded vision of myself. I don't claim that I'm suffering Christian persecution.

But you, brother, keep on praying that I'll be "nailed to the wall". Your vindictiveness and your anger comes shining through...but I understand, as you've learned from the best. I truly feel sorry for you.

Anonymous said...

Lydia:

You could be right. Both sides could remain silent.

I have a suspicion, however, that there may have been some hard feelings between larger factions of the trustee board on this one.

I don't expect Dr. Hammond to start talking. I also don't expect Mr. Patterson to start talking.

If other trustees, however, felt the process was unfair, they may talk.

We are speculating. We'll just have to wait and see.

Louis

Anonymous said...

I just wanted everyone to know that The Rev. Dr. James D. Whitmire is going to be launching a choir enrollment campaign this fall. So y'all come and join the choir, especially if you're an alto. We also need more second tenors. With more people we can make our beautiful music even better!

Purifier said...

Makes me think may this statement;

Keep up your constant harping on Mac. Its getting you nowhere except your own elevated opinions of yourself on your own blog. Wonder what you will do after you get nailed to the wall in the courtroom?

and......this statement;

But if Schrader goes on and keeps playing his little games and goes after our money, we'll come after him. And when we do, this time we're going to nail his hide."

is from one of the Everson's..or their followers? It has their names all over these type of comments!

See wartburgblog lately, wow

William said...

While I read this blog and have occasionally linked it on BaptistLife, I haven't commented in a year or two but I would respond to a couple of things. I don't plan to have a running discussion here but those who have an interest and can be civil about it can register and participate at baptistlife.com.

1. I doubt any of the CBF supporters on BaptistLife would ever call me a moderate. I'm strictly SBC.

2. While I sympathize with G. Hammond, he is in a high-profile position. Both the Christian Index and Baptist Press have prominently reported his woes at NAMB. The sources for those stories surely include trustees (one publicly admitted to widely circulating an email about GH and trustee difficulties) as well as employees. It is a little silly to expect SBCers to just shut up about it. I've said repeatedly that the underlying blame here should be laid at the feet of the trustees, not GH.

3. I see no valid reason NOT to have full disclosure about employment and severance contracts to the Southern Baptists who pay the bills. If the trustees of NAMB entered into contracts with GH that require confidentiality and non-disclosure, then trustees can intitate a policy that such agreements will not be employed in the future. If trustees believe that disclosure would embarrass the agency and the SBC, then what do they believe is happening right now with what has been made public?

Southern Baptists deserve better.

William Thornton

Anonymous said...

I'm so glad you feel sorry for me Tom. Makes my wicked little heart glad that such a spiritual man has taken an interest.

Just keep deluding yourself. Its quite becoming.

Dave Johnson said...

William,

Is there some reason you don't want to have a discussion here?

William said...

Dave,

I find discussions on comment streams a bit tedious, especially after the next blog is posted.

That's the only reason.

WT

Anonymous said...

Who's the martyr?

Who's the one taking the church, the Body, to court?

Who's the one demanding $15,000 dollars because he got called a name?!?!?

Who started all this name calling?!?

Anonymous said...

re the upcoming special offering.....

there is no a/c working in the middle school building but we are only 5 % under budget?

but i guess we are too stupid to understand how the money is spent and why it is spent the way it is

Anonymous said...

"...leaders are going to have to start being open, honest, and transparent."

What a joke of a statement coming from someone who doesn't even know the meaning of those words.

Richard said...

Jeff Brumley article in Sunday’s Times Union

Experts say financial transparency, accountability key to church health

If money is mishandled, the effects can give a bad name to entire sects

Anonymous said...

In God We Trusts. Pray For bipolar For Healing In The Name Of Jesus Christ... I Pray For All Family Have a financial Healing In The name of jesus Christ. Pray For teens, depression sadness, youth teenagers, girls , boys... Prayer of Children for their Parents . Pray For neighbors, & Childrens parents. Please Pray for Street Bullies In The Name Of Jesus Christ & Pray For Schools
Pray For The Family Live Be side me & Around me. Bless There Home & Work & Shool. Bless There health to, & The One's who do not know Jesus As There Saver Salvation will Get Saved In The Blood Of Jesus.
I’M PAYING FOR YOU AND OTHER PEOPLE AROUND ME Prayer for families is the very foundation that keeps a family unit together. Have you heard the phrase "A family that prays together stays together"? The concept is true - a family that has their focus on praying to the Lord Jesus Christ has a foundation that may be shaken at times, but it will withstand all that comes against them.I Pray for In The Name Of Jesus Christ, For ¦Overcoming Anxiety, Worry and Tension
Pray for Africa In The name of Jesus Christ
Prays for President Obama and Wife, & Children’s and his new administration. Your efforts will work powerfully in our nation.
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem, I Pray For Peace For USA. God Bless Jerusalem, God Bless USA. In The Name Of Jesus Christ I Pray. Pray for neighbors,& teens, IN GOD WE TRUST
FATHER GOD SEND REVIVAL, AND LET IT START WITH ME" Pray For Our Youth & Young Adults.In The Name Of Jesus Christ
A family that prays together stays together.

Former FBC Insider said...

I find it very ironic that we have received that "Special Budget Offering" letter which states that Mac knows times are tough, people have lost their jobs, people have lost their businesses, and yet he still goes on to state that he is "asking that each of us prepare to give an additional offering on August 23."

Compassion much?

The ironic part is when I tried to break down how much it cost him/FBCJ to send this mass mailing. Take into consideration the number of members that he boasts, 26,000+, then take into consideration the wages of the employees that took dictation and typed the materials. Also take into consideration the cost of printing a 'special' envelope that can only be used for this one offering, the stationary used, the envelope it was mailed in and the cost of mailing it to EVERYONE on roll, even to those of us who don't attend any longer, and who certainly won't make a contribution to his antics.

Mac could have used those funds to put into his budget.

What I really think is that this "Special Budget Offering" will go to a new line item titled, "Watchdog Legal Defense Fund".

Mac's parting words in the letter were, "Pray and seek God's will for the future of this wonderful fellowship. Consider that your giving might convey to those watching us that we are serious about God's work."

My interpretation is, "There is a new line item in the budget that shall remain anonymous, but we really need some cash flow for the legal mess I've gotten us into. I know people are watching us due to my arrogance and pride."

He signs it, "Because of Him".
That could be taken two ways that I know of...

FBCJ, please don't buy it.
Think about it.

Anonymous said...

Since you expressly said that you no longer attend FBC, Jax then why does this concern you or why is it even your business. I'm sure they will well exceed the cost of the mailing.

Somce people might actually like his pastoral leadership and give--unlike those of you who don't and left.

Anonymous said...

How about this for financial transparency?? Last night I had the privilege of meeting a couple working in the US under the auspices of the NAMB. They have a wonderful ministry and I'm really considering donating to help their very worthwhile cause. I didn't know it, but only 6% of those in the NAMB are fully funded by the mission board. These folks who are buried by the ministry they have taken on have to spend time to raise the money they live on and minister with. If I give to the NAMB with the funds directed at these folks, how much of it will they actually see???

Anonymous said...

Well, Mac could go first and help out the church by cutting his income a 200,000. That would leave him with at least 100,000-300,000 to live on.

How about it, Mac?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Anon 3:32,

Not a large percentage of it probably. We've seen the antics of the NAMB trustees lately. Why not give to the couple directly and cut out the "middlemen"? That way you know they'll get 100%.

Anonymous said...

I would give this blog and all you bloggers much more creedance if just ONE of you actually could produce facts about what Mac makes.

All you do is speculate and then gripe. It would be so much more becoming if you actually knew some facts and then griped.

And I would probably join you.

Anonymous said...

Just as information, mega pastors don't take decreases in salary only increases even in these economic downturns. They are "so busy" that the deacon board normally increases their salaries 5-10 percent every year so they won't leave and go to another position. Ain't it great being a mega man.

Anonymous said...

Tom,

Since you were a long time member of FBC, Jax and obviously knew so many of the people perhaps you could actually find out who is on the Personnel or Budget Committees and then actually get the facts of Mac's salary and perks.

But then we would have to wonder if you ever really did tell us the truth about being such an active and contributing part of FBC, Jax.

Anonymous said...

If I give to the NAMB with the funds directed at these folks, how much of it will they actually see???

August 16, 2009 3:32 PM

That is the question Mary Kinney addresses in her book, Spending God's Money. She worked at NAMB

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

How do I know this Anon isn't from Jax, or knows very little of FBC Jax?

Because he refers to people on the "personnel" and "budget" committees.

None such committees exist within the bylaw structure of FBC Jax.

And neither is there a "finance" committee.

There once was a "finance committee", but that function now is within the trustee body, and the pastor appoints the trustees. That change occured in the December 2007 bylaw changes.

About me claiming I was "such an active and contributing part of FBC." I don't recall making that claim here on the blog. But I was a very average member of no particular significance. My family attended very regularly, I taught 6th grade Sunday School for about 6 years, my kids were very active in all of the youth programs. My wife was more active than I, serving in various middle school roles. So yes, I was "active" and I tried to "contribute" to my church. Not sure what your point is there.

And I really don't care what Brunson earns. Besides, that issue was settled last year. He told Brumley that his salary is not "anywhere near $300,000". So I guess that answered the question on "salary" once and for all.

Anonymous said...

That mean ol Mac! I have just got my little feelings hurt and that name calling is going to cost the Church Fifteen Thousand Dollars. But I am right and I am bitter and I hate that ol preacher at FBC. You know how sensitive I am.

Anonymous said...

So why don't you quit playing word games and either go yourself or have one of your friends (assuming you still have some at FBC, Jax) meet with one or more of the trustees and find out the truth.

You obviously do care about Mac's salary because you bring it up all the time. And I'm sure the explanation that its not near $300,000 won't suffice for you.

After your personal description of your duties and activities at FBC, Jax I can understand why you really don't anything as fact. But then conjecture is probably your premier spiritual gift.

Anonymous said...

People will NEVER get straight info from the powers at some churches. Just won't happen! Whether it concerns money, direction of the church, etc. Many leadership decisions are made up as a situation evolves. Usually at the guidance and discretion of the pastor. Previous guidelines and by-laws aside. Professionals in business usually have a five year plan. Some churches plan depends on the whim of leadership, power, and how the money filters in.

In some churches the true finances, such as the pastors salary and other expenditures, perks, etc., are not disclosed to members. If these facts were known, there is the possibility of a "financial giving revolt" which of course would upset things tremendously.

Some churches also continue some type of compensation of a former pastor, as part of a generous but draining package, that over a period of time can become a real burden on a church. Especially, if another pastor comes and goes, then another. Soon much money goes into paying pastors that are no longer part of the existing church. This could be why some in a churches leadership "put up" with a current pastor more than necessary, because they can't afford to "buy him out", so to speak. This works for many a current pastor. He gets what he wants either way. This is why "lucrative packages" and contracts should not be promised to a preacher, to get him to come to a church. After all, isn't he supposed to be led of God to serve as God calls him? Not as the money, benefits, perks and compensation contracts call him? My opinion, as I see these situations.

Anonymous said...

Well, we know how much pastors at FBCDallas were paid in the 1980's. Thanks to Joel Gregory's book.


Project that out to when Mac was there. If he makes 300,000, he took a cut in pay to come to FBCJax.

Anonymous said...

"Some churches also continue some type of compensation of a former pastor, as part of a generous but draining package, that over a period of time can become a real burden on a church"

That does not need to be the case in the SBC at all. Guidestone. They can take the retirement investment risk like the rest of us

Thy Peace said...

Why am I not surprised? This is SBC, business as usual ...
-----------------------------------
JM said...
Wade,
The truth is often hard to swallow. Unfortunately for members of the SBC we are finding ourselves hijacked by a political elite "good old boys".

These are facts, not gathered from bloggers but first hand from multiple sources:
1. Geoff had no opportunity to refute or give rebuttal to the accusations made about him. Was there not a single member of the trustee board that recognizes the Matthew 18 principle?
2. Three of the five execs that spoke against him came from Johnny Hunts church. They had been in discussion on these matters with Johnny for months. This was a planned strategy to take Hammond down because of his SUCCESS. His success got in the way of the plan by Johnny Hunt, Ted Traylor, Danny Aiken.
3. Tim Patterson, chairman of these trustees is a pawn who has been courted by Johnny and others to do what they want. He has been on the NAMB board for 11 years during which he has been in a thorn in the flesh of any success at NAMB. The meeting of the trustees was called to handle the issue of Tim Patterson spreading rumors and negative accusations then running to the press with them. He was garnering support and talking to them about firing Hammond. How does a trustee board that gave Hammond a 100% vote of confidence just TWO MONTHS earlier request his resignation based on conversations with a few disgruntled execs? None of it makes sense.
4. Someone please ask how a man who gave $0 dollars to Annie Armstrong last year can actually lead the charge in the firing the man hired to lead NAMB. Why would he be allowed to speak in the meeting? Why is he SBC president? The reason is as plain as the nose on your face. There is much to be gained by getting rid of NAMB and joining it with the IMB then DISPURSING the money to other SBC Institutions such as SEMINARIES. The amount of money involved in this transaction is astronomical.
5. Please ask Johnny Hunt and the rest of these men who led the charge against Hammond how many friends they have hired for their church staffs and why this hiring of people you have worked with previously is now considered negative? The reason for the roll-over of long time execs against Hammond is because they wanted the top spots. I believe that Harry Lewis had his own hat in the ring for President before Hammond was hired.
6. Watch out Morris Chapman! You are next! They don't like you because you are standing in the way of their plan. Watch out Jerry Rankin! You better work out that retirement because they want to fill your position. In fact, it's already been promised to a certain mega church pastor.
7. Little churches across SBC America, stand up, speak up, and push them to be accountable! Don't let them have their power and money. Don't give it to them!
Fri Aug 14, 06:54:00 PM 2009
.
-----------------------------------

Thy Peace said...

-----------------------------------
PastorJohnFr said...
direct quote from another blog on the subject....not saying who has the better blog but i thought some would like to see it. This isn't from me.

"NAMB Trustee Meeting, August 11 2009

Called into Executive Session by Tim Patterson
Fellow trustee called for President Hammond to remain in the room since he is the president of NAMB
Barry McCarty, SBC Parliamentarian, called that motion out of order
Several other trustees pressed for Hammond to stay
McCarty ruled against all requests/motions
Hammond supporters were kept at bay
Hammond and others left the Day Auditorium
They were never invited to return
David Doverspike, attorney for NAMB remained in the meeting
Johnny Hunt, SBC President; 3 NAMB Senior Strategists; 2 NAMB Team Leaders spoke to the Trustees
Towards the later part of the afternoon, it was clear that Hammond supporters did not know what they could do any more
Hammond would need to resign, and that was clear for Culbreth since he was senior assistant to Hammond
When asked about Reid and Pickett, a trustee said “let me go check”
That trustee came back and said “I’m sorry to tell you this, but they want you all to go”
Not one of the 4 had a chance to hear or answer any charges/accusations against them
Hammond asked to speak to the trustees, to share something from his heart. Said he would not be negative or throw anyone under the bus. He was denied that opportunity.

Ted Traylor was quoted last week as saying, “the trustee system works”. Guess it does when you can figure out the parliamentarian loophole that keeps those being questioned from being present. Even if it is the president of the entity.

Tim Patterson, in his address to NAMB staff Wednesday morning said, “God is leading these four men elsewhere”.
To my knowledge, these 4 men have no idea where they go next. They would say that God called them to NAMB. Tim, don’t speak for God on their behalf. You did not even let them speak on their own behalf."
Sun Aug 16, 09:49:00 PM 2009.
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JM said...
They also took Geoff Hammonds keys for his company car as they led him out of the building. He had no ride home! He had to call someone to take him home! What is this? Who does this kind of stuff? Apparently Hunt has never heard of WWJD. I am however certain that no other president of an institution within the SBC has EVER been treated as poorly and ungodly as Hammond. I think it would be helpful to Hunt and the others involved in this Kangaroo Court to be reminded of the Golden Rule. It's not enough to just know about it but LIVE it. The power that they used to slash the heart and passion of this man and his dream to lead this mission sending agency is breath-taking and shows a tremendous lack of discretion, grace, and willingness to wait on God. They bullied, controlled, usurped, and plotted. I've seen these kinds of behaviors in political parties, ruthless backroom board meetings, and churches that have a small controlling group who desire to kick the pastor out because he doesn't do what they say. Be careful, it will come back to you.
Mon Aug 17, 12:08:00 AM 2009
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Anonymous said...

Anon 11:51....There is NO RISK involved...the retirement pay comes out of the general funds given by the members. This is sometimes, another "monetary figure" the members know nothing about. Most members are unaware that a "previous pastor" is still on the payroll in the form of "retirement compensation", or whatever other term is used. When a church runs behind on expenses and maintenance of buildings and revenues are insufficient then special donations are called for in order to catch up. If that doesn't work then employees are retired early, let go and not replaced, otherwise then the borrowing of funds occurs. But, what bank would allow a loan when the church is running deficit after deficit year after year?

Retirement plans in most churches do not exist for the pastor like the ordinary worker. The ordinary worker puts something aside monthly into a plan....the pastor normially does not as it is a "perk" or an "incentive" to bring him to the church. It would be better for every worker to put part of their salary into a plan including the pastor whereby they would share equally. Unfortunately, that will not happen as the pastor is put on a higher plain. Its similar to icing on the cake, it makes it more appealing and so much harder to resist!!!

Anonymous said...

"Someone please ask how a man who gave $0 dollars to Annie Armstrong last year can actually lead the charge in the firing the man hired to lead NAMB. Why would he be allowed to speak in the meeting? Why is he SBC president? The reason is as plain as the nose on your face."

Our association newspaper listed each person on the GCR task force and listed next to their church the percentage given to the CP.

Most were 1% or under.

And these are the folks making recommendations for the future of missions in the SBC?

Anonymous said...

"Retirement plans in most churches do not exist for the pastor like the ordinary worker."

I do not think you read my comment. This is not the case for SBC pastors.

Anonymous said...

IF Mac took a pay cut to come from Dallas, would you be impressed if you later found out he was given a $307,000 land gift within three weeks of his arrival. No pay cut in reality, just greed and misleading the people, no matter how great or small his actual "salary" is.

Poor, widow, orphan said...

FBC Members - don't listen to Tom. Please give that 5% shortfall. I am hungry, naked and poor and that $750,000 shortfall will go a long way to ministering to me and my friends who Jesus loves. Mac has a heart for those homeless, hurting people outside his door. He suffers for the hungry in our city, the poor and sick... Oh please give so Mac can get some of that money out of the church members wallets and to us. Thank you, Mac, for your leadership in getting God's people to give more to help us. I will be watching the front page of the Times-Union for the news article about how much you are helping our city with these funds.

Anonymous said...

And how much money do you whining malcontents give to the poor? As usual, you just gripe about the pastor's salary and in reality you are worse.

Anonymous said...

And how much money do you whining malcontents give to the poor? As usual, you just gripe about the pastor's salary and in reality you are worse.

August 17, 2009 11:26 AM


Luke 12

47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Anonymous said...

Thy Peace blog....Reiteration of church political goings on... WOW, Can they get any more spiritual?

Now you have a larger example of what so many members have experienced at the hands of "so called pastors". And many of you enablers and staff members that support these pastors can see (and fear) what happens if you get on the wrong side of a pastor. It makes no difference how long you have served. Once you "cross" the big guy or the big guns, you are history. And in this political arena it has been magnified. How can this stuff be from God. It isn't!!!! It's all about money and power!!!!! Us lowly little church members are just flys to be swatted out of the way while the ingratiating, smiling pirate continues to rule. Some really have to compromise to be big guys today. Do these callous leaders of churches today think they are fooling God? Do they really think they will be able to explain their actions that hurt so many church members, to God? Is it no wonder that God says He will spue this Laodicean church out of His mouth. Just sign me "sick of churches and preachers".

Anonymous said...

TP,

Where can we read JM?

Den

Anonymous said...

And how much money do you whining malcontents give to the poor? As usual, you just gripe about the pastor's salary and in reality you are worse.

August 17, 2009 11:26 AM

__________________________________

anon 11:26 a.m. - thanks for all your recent posts. It just shows you have no true reply to the concerns here. All you can do is try to change the subject to how much money some anon blogger gives to the poor. Sorry, go start a blog about bloggers that are soliciting funds from church members but are not giving to the poor. This blog is about a millionairre preacher with an insatiable appetite for MORE MONEY!

And thanks for keeping the pot stirred up here. We love responding to kool-aid drinkers like you. It gives us a chance to keep re-focusing the issues on Millionairre Mac.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm...let's see...give more money to a $15 million dollar budget to pay Maurilio for his Vegas shows and 7-head shower...and the pastor's son, and the pastor's wife, and to promote Danube River cruises, and to pay for more advertising on TV and radio to steal sheep OR...give to the ministries that are actually ministering the gospel in word AND in deed? Let me pray about that one for awhile!

I wonder what "da book" says I am to do?

And I think I will tell my boss that I am 5% under my budget and ask him to give me more money this year. It is so much easier to ask others for it. Just look at GM, Obama, City of Jacksonville, and others. "hey I have an idea, no matter how much we take from these poor folks, let's overspend, live large, than we'll go back to them and tell them we just have to take a little more. We'll call them fees, or taxes, or tithes. Man this is great. Ask and ye shall receive...but very addictive and insatiable appetites are formed.

Thy Peace said...

The comments I copied and pasted are from this post of Pastor Wade Burleson:

Grace and Peace to You Geoff Hammond.

I do not know who JM is.

Also one of the comments pulled material from this post of Les Puryear:

The NAMB Coup d'├ętat.

Anonymous said...

Man would I love to have that mailing list of over 26,000 gullible people who think by giving to me and my budget they are giving to the Creator of the Universe. Imagine how much I could con out of them. hee hee hee I bet that is one closely guarded list. tee hee hee

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
And how much money do you whining malcontents give to the poor? As usual, you just gripe about the pastor's salary and in reality you are worse.

August 17, 2009 11:26 AM
===============================
My gripe is not about salary if it's earned but the "search committee" hired a preacher & wife to be gone more than present viewing "Historical Sights" in other countries on the pretense of mission work . . .one thing spoken from from the pulpit is saying that we at FBCJ is not a "Micky Mouse Club, as it's not, it's a Country Club!

For your information, we give an abundance to the POOR - especially to the POOR MISSIONARIES in the field who have to shoulder two jobs - one to do their work and the other to raise their funds to stay in the ministry.

Anonymous said...

Can anyone show me 2 cents worth of difference between national secular politics and church politics? Or church politicians!!! The backroom deals and compromises prevail in both arenas. I know God must be very sad to see His church desert Him.

If you are "up" today, doesn't mean a thing. You can be "down" tomorrow. Depends on who has the most power in the struggle. And who makes the best "deals". But you members keep giving and pay for it all.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:23

You are so right-on. They're like dope-addicts when it comes to money.

Just gimme a little more (sucker), just a little more.

And all the gravy-trainers (family, consultants, etc.) are just as disgusting. Go get yer own jobs, ya sychophants!!